In this episode, David and Ruth look back over the highlights of the first season of Partnered with a Survivor. They talk about the genesis of the show, favorite episodes, and the value of survivor anger. The episode also includes a preview of 2021 episodes including an interview with author Jess Hill, and a new series that looks inside the Safe & Together Institute. See you in 2021!!
Now available! Mapping the Perpetrator’s Pattern: A Practitioner’s Tool for Improving Assessment, Intervention, and Outcomes The web-based Perpetrator Pattern Mapping Tool is a virtual practice tool for improving assessment, intervention, and outcomes through a perpetrator pattern-based approach. The tool allows practitioners to apply the Model’s critical concepts and principles to their current case load in real
Check out David Mandel's new book "Stop Blaming Mothers and Ignoring Fathers: How to transform the way we keep children safe from domestic violence."
In this episode, David and Ruth look back over the highlights of the first season of Partnered with a Survivor. They talk about the genesis of the show, favorite episodes, and the value of survivor anger. The episode also includes a preview of 2021 episodes including an interview with author Jess Hill, and a new series that looks inside the Safe & Together Institute. See you in 2021!!
Now available! Mapping the Perpetrator’s Pattern: A Practitioner’s Tool for Improving Assessment, Intervention, and Outcomes The web-based Perpetrator Pattern Mapping Tool is a virtual practice tool for improving assessment, intervention, and outcomes through a perpetrator pattern-based approach. The tool allows practitioners to apply the Model’s critical concepts and principles to their current case load in real
Check out David Mandel's new book "Stop Blaming Mothers and Ignoring Fathers: How to transform the way we keep children safe from domestic violence."
[00:00:15] And we're back and we're back. [00:00:17][1.6]
Speaker 1: [00:00:18] So this is our partner with the survivor end of year wrap up. [00:00:22][3.9]
Speaker 2: [00:00:23] That's right. And I'm David Mandel, executive director of the Saban Tither Institute. [00:00:26][3.2]
Speaker 1: [00:00:27] And I'm Ruth Stern spendable, and I am the communications and eLearning manager and Tiberius. The dog is here. You may hear him in the background. [00:00:37][10.3]
Speaker 2: [00:00:38] That's true. And this is the last show of our season one. This is episode 33, though there's a super secret episode with your interview with Charlie Webster. That's kind of stuck and they're outnumbered, like as a secret menu item there that's not numbered in there, but three episodes. And if you're listening to this show? Well, thank you. First and foremost for joining us this year and our first season and and spoiler alert, we're doing season two. [00:01:07][29.0]
Speaker 1: [00:01:08] Oh yeah, we're going to keep going with this. I think this is a great way to to flesh out topics and have really diverse conversations. And we know some of the ways that it's being used around the world. Do you want to speak to the professional aspect of. [00:01:25][16.9]
Speaker 2: [00:01:25] Some people are using it to do professional development training, you know, getting social work, continuing education credits. You know, we're hearing people sharing it with their colleagues and their friends. That's some of what I've heard. What have you heard? [00:01:39][13.6]
Speaker 1: [00:01:40] I have, you know, because my focus is more survivor focused survivors are using it to inform themselves, particularly about navigating the professional world and in crafting their language of documentation to assist them when they actually do engage systems. A lot of the survivors that I encounter are survivors that have lost their children through Family Court, who are domestic abuse survivors, and therefore it is confirming of their reality that they have been mistreated by the system and their children are continuing to be in danger. And I think it feels very encouraging and connective for them to know that there is a network of professionals across the world who are aware that this is a problem and who are working to try to come up with solutions to that problem. [00:02:43][62.8]
Speaker 2: [00:02:44] So we are being used, being used, we're beginning. The podcast is being run by people all over the world which are super excited about, and this has been a really difficult year for many of us. We know people who have been sick, we know people who have lost people, lost loved ones, and we know people who have felt the strain and struggle of lockdowns and disconnection from family. Yeah, and here we are. You know, maybe on here in the US, on the edge of one of the most difficult periods. Expectation is the next few months are going to be super hard, right? But then after that, there's hope that the vaccines will take hold and things will get better. So we're we're we're launching this or we're wrapping up this this season, you know, with a lot of reflection on the year. You know, when we started the show, we [00:03:44][60.3]
Speaker 1: [00:03:44] started this out in January, January of 2020. I think our first episode was January 15th or right around there we launched it. And right, as of now, we have almost 30000 downloads. And just to kind of to go over the reality of where this is going out to, you know, if we look at the breakdown, 43 percent of our listenership is in the Asia Pacific region, which is really cool. So Australia, New Zealand and the Asia Pacific region super engaged. And then in North America, 44 percent and Europe is kind of sitting hovering at about 10 11 percent. So, you know, we're expanding this conversation about partnering with survivors and focusing on perpetrators as parents and their choices to harm their family. And that is so important for culture change as well. [00:04:42][57.2]
Speaker 2: [00:04:43] And I'm super excited about Australia, the Asia Pacific area and New Zealand coming online this year. We've got our first partner agency in New Zealand coming online in 2021, so we're hoping partner with Survivor gets even more popular in that area. But I want to go back to the beginning of the show. You said, you know, January, and for those of you who joined us sort of mid-year, you know, our our day listened to the first few episodes. Ruth came to me part of with survivors her idea and she kind of said to me one day. Do you want to do a podcast? I'm saying, sure, let's do that. She says, I've got a name for it already. I have a logo for it already and I bought the equipment. Oh yeah. And it's like one of the best ways to get me to do something, you know, because I'm super busy. And so she said, OK, let's do it. And we actually were away on holiday when we recorded the first one. We were in Arizona also and and some of these podcasts have been recorded all over the world. [00:05:42][58.9]
Speaker 1: [00:05:42] Oh yes, we've recorded podcasts in a bus in New Zealand. Yes, that's right. I think I was on fun places. [00:05:47][4.8]
Speaker 2: [00:05:48] We've got a moving bus. It was. It was a it was a stationary bike, an [00:05:50][2.9]
Speaker 1: [00:05:51] Airbnb B bus. [00:05:51][0.8]
Speaker 2: [00:05:52] That's right. We did that. [00:05:53][0.8]
Speaker 1: [00:05:54] We've recorded on the Great Ocean Road in Australia. Yeah. From one of the places we were staying there, we recorded the at the Asia-Pacific conference, also in Australia, [00:06:07][13.0]
Speaker 2: [00:06:09] and then allow the episodes of me recorded in our in our living room, in the dog sitting between us Tiberius. Yeah, you hear in the background. And so it was Ruth's idea to start with. It's super exciting. And and you know, it was the outgrowth of us talking, having conversations about my experiences in the field and the safe and together model and Ruth's experience. Yours as a survivor and your interactions were professional and family and friends and your experiences of abuse. And and you had the idea that we should bring this conversation out into the open. Right. [00:06:48][38.9]
Speaker 1: [00:06:48] We would talk. We talk, [00:06:50][1.5]
Speaker 2: [00:06:51] we talk a lot all the time, all the time. I think we make our kids sick. I think [00:06:54][3.4]
Speaker 1: [00:06:54] our kids are annoyed with [00:06:55][0.8]
Speaker 2: [00:06:55] us because we talk so much, but rather about things. [00:06:58][2.4]
Speaker 1: [00:06:58] But we we truly are like, we bounce. It's like a ping pong ball. You know, we talk about things, we bounce things off of each other. We don't necessarily always agree with each other. Your voice is very distinct from my voice. We'll talk about that in a minute. And you know, I think the beautiful thing about understanding that the practice is personal in the personal practice is that in order for us to really do this well, we have to give people good examples of collaboration between men and women, between professionals and survivors and between systems and the people that they serve. And really in practice and action, because there's all sorts of policy theories and practice theories, policy points, laws that don't necessarily have the outcomes that we want them to have and landing in the outcomes is the most important thing. If we want to move this forward and have more accountability and reduce the trauma and harm to children and to survivors of domestic violence, [00:08:10][72.2]
Speaker 2: [00:08:12] I think that one of the most impactful shows for me of actually doing the show was the one where we we talked about how your voice has impacted me long and it really it really was. It was one of my favorite shows. [00:08:26][14.5]
Speaker 1: [00:08:27] I've always wondered what people, what people think about that because I really do feel that people see partnership and they say, Oh, well, that can't be really true. There's got to be deeply hidden things in the background. But I really loved that episode because it was deeply honest, not just about the influence, but you know, there was parts in there about the challenges as well in listening to the voices of survivors and listening to the way that we express our anger. So I loved I loved that that episode, I thought it was really. It was really good. [00:09:08][41.3]
Speaker 2: [00:09:09] I really did, too, and I think it really, for me represents this idea that we do have a partnership. There's a collaboration and I always use the word permeable. You know, I want to make sure that I'm being impacted, that I'm not, they a lot of times this idea for men particularly is of strength is that you're that you're strong and you're you're you're tough and you're independent and you're you influence other people, but you're not influenced in return. Yeah. Yes. And I think that for me, that word permeable, I want that to be true for me personally. But I also wanted to be true for the institute [00:09:50][40.8]
Speaker 1: [00:09:50] for having influence influencing other people but not being influenced by them. And return is called control. That might be the base of what we're trying to do to change. [00:09:59][9.0]
Speaker 2: [00:10:00] So I think it is self-protection. Yeah, I think I think it ends up being self-protection too for some people. And I think it's I think it's you know, for me, that episode represents and I'm actually trying to figure which episode it is. I feel like I should be able to tell you all. It's really funny. You know that. [00:10:15][15.0]
Speaker 1: [00:10:16] So I think it's survivors aren't broken. Episode 18 Yeah. An intimate discussion about support and partnership in relationships impacted by trauma history. [00:10:24][8.5]
Speaker 2: [00:10:25] Yeah, I was hoping that we would be able to figure out which [00:10:26][1.4]
Speaker 1: [00:10:26] and that actually came out of a request from from an Aboriginal woman to talk about how to deal with historical trauma in relationships and not view the responses of survivors as being problematic or that they're broken right rather than it's. It's just relational information that you have to navigate, really, when you decide to say, Hey, I want to be with you as a human, I know you have a history and I'm going to honor that history. And and this is how I'm going to be aware of it and do it. And and I know that we we rarely bring that level of self-reflection to a relationship as humans because we kind of do it, you know, in different ways. But but you know, that was that. Yeah, that was a great episode. [00:11:19][53.1]
Speaker 2: [00:11:20] That was great. And I think part of what we try to do and again, this was a lot your idea, which was as you moved into the domestic violence field and became a professional as our eLearning manager, our communications manager, you know, you realize there wasn't a lot of disclosure by professionals in a lot of spaces about their experience of being survivors, their lived [00:11:43][22.4]
Speaker 1: [00:11:43] experience, or they were harmed for [00:11:45][1.6]
Speaker 2: [00:11:45] this or they were harmed for it. It wasn't didn't feel safe to share it. And so we really wanted to create a space where there was some breaking down of that personal and professional boundaries and and sharing and and so you came to me and I think you actually had the idea for the first episode already, you know, about coercive control and consent? Yes. And that is the most listened to episode [00:12:05][20.2]
Speaker 1: [00:12:06] two thousand four hundred twenty three downloads. [00:12:08][1.7]
Speaker 2: [00:12:09] Yeah. And so you have a listen to it, I think. Go back and listen to it. You know, [00:12:12][3.8]
Speaker 1: [00:12:13] it is baby podcast where you put a teeny tiny baby. Podcasters forgive the poor sound quality [00:12:18][5.5]
Speaker 2: [00:12:19] and with no and no intro music. Oh, that's a highlight. We'll talk about that a minute as a highlight, but but that, you know, you came with that idea that really so fundamental and so basic. You know that that the conversation about consent that when somebody is engaging in coercive control, they're they're overriding somebody else's consent, right, is so basic. But it's not a language that we use oftentimes in talking about relationships or relationship dynamics. It shows up some in the discussion around sexual assault, playing around universities and teaching young people. Right, right, right. But I don't think, you know, it was an exploration of sort of consent as a fundamental form of relationship agreement or quality quality. Like, I'm looking around for where, you know, relational [00:13:10][51.5]
Speaker 1: [00:13:11] quality without [00:13:12][0.7]
Speaker 2: [00:13:12] consent and consent. And so anyway, so that was you came to us and that was that kind of got us off and running. Yeah, and no, [00:13:19][7.1]
Speaker 1: [00:13:20] I mean, there's been so many amazing episodes. What would you say is has been the most challenging aspect for you about being so free flowing in this format? Because because you are used to creating sense out of out of particular information and then crafting it into a model, which is essentially a training model for all of these systems? You know, these systems that touch on domestic violence and child well-being and then free flow and, you know, hippie child cult child comes in here, you know, and says, let's do this. [00:14:00][40.1]
Speaker 2: [00:14:01] Well, free flowing [00:14:01][0.6]
Speaker 1: [00:14:02] format, because to me, it felt like it would bring about a lot of ideas. A lot. Of evolution in the field at a time which was really in crisis with COVID, political factors, political pressures now economic factors. And one of the things that we know is this that, you know, of course, the outcome is unpredictable when you have those type of pressures. But those pressures do create an opportunity for us to learn and to do better, particularly if we're innovative thinkers. One of the things that I immediately recognized and loved about the safe and together model was that it I could see the eco systemic nature of it, which is really how my mind works and how mind my mind was trained. And so I felt like really diving into it without any boundaries was going to allow us to explore the range of connections in the field between things that most people think are unconnected. Most people don't think that child protection and women's sectors, workers impact each other or connected to each other. But they are. They impact the victim of domestic violence. They impact those children and their disconnect impacts us. Even more so being able to have this free flowing conversation that really explores all of those different links and connections I felt might lead to some new ideas and some potential innovation. [00:15:40][98.5]
Speaker 2: [00:15:42] What I can say is I love the creativity of the show this year, and I loved the back and forth. You know, you and I, when we do our covers, just like today, we we sit down with a couple of thoughts and then we kind of just go if people wonder how much prep we do for these shows, you know, well, we we [00:16:00][17.5]
Speaker 1: [00:16:00] do our research. [00:16:00][0.3]
Speaker 2: [00:16:01] But ultimately, we know we know what we want to talk about and we also want to see where it goes. So I love the creativity of the shows that are just you, and I love just having this conversation. [00:16:10][8.5]
Speaker 1: [00:16:11] I love the interviews, though, the diverse [00:16:12][1.4]
Speaker 2: [00:16:12] voice and I love the interviews. I love the diverse voices, and I love the opportunity to meet people have a reason to talk to people excuse like, Hey, you're really cool, can we talk to you? So, you know, we just did an interview with Lee Good Mark, who's an old friend of mine, a law professor, is really written a lot about decriminalizing domestic violence. And then this wonderful group of advocates from a refuge network in northern Wisconsin embrace, you know, got just got to hang out with them and be super cool and super cool people. [00:16:43][30.5]
Speaker 1: [00:16:44] And I met I met some really amazing survivors. So many of the survivors who have been on our show. I met them on social media or as I was searching topics and how they have become really wonderful relationships and friendships around the globe. And and it makes makes me feel like there's more people doing this work. And I think that's the thing that we can't discount during COVID when we're so isolated from each other is that knowing that there are lots of people around the world trying to do this work and and and work at this problem in an empathetic, loving, connected ways that wants good outcomes for victims and survivors is really a boon. It's it's it's wind underneath my wings. [00:17:35][51.0]
Speaker 2: [00:17:36] You say that? Yeah, it is, really. Did he just you know [00:17:41][5.0]
Speaker 1: [00:17:41] that you're my hero? [00:17:42][0.8]
Speaker 2: [00:17:43] There you go. I'm going to say you're sorry. My God, it's my love song to you. Our people. That's your song. Yes, yes. Another highlight of this year was when we added theme music for the show. [00:17:54][11.3]
Speaker 1: [00:17:55] I'm not sure how people feel about the theme music, but we did it. [00:17:58][3.2]
Speaker 2: [00:17:58] Your word, people. So so if everybody, anybody out there likes the theme music, write us on social media [00:18:04][5.8]
Speaker 1: [00:18:04] or if anybody else doesn't like the [00:18:06][1.6]
Speaker 2: [00:18:06] theme music, I'm very being very strength based on my health. First of all, I want all the data, you know, and so tell us that we'll break it down by data points. That's right. So we want we want that, that opinion about the theme music. I love it, and I love that you were super excited that you like I was. [00:18:24][18.0]
Speaker 1: [00:18:25] I felt like a superhero that got a cape or something. [00:18:27][2.0]
Speaker 2: [00:18:27] That's right. You know, like, think it was technically a theme music for the show, but you. [00:18:32][4.3]
Speaker 1: [00:18:32] But I walked around with it for three days. I would just play it. I'd be like, OK, I'm coming in a room. Hold on. I have to play my theme music, right? [00:18:38][6.6]
Speaker 2: [00:18:39] You felt like personally was your theme music. I love that. I love that song anyway. So so that theme music was it was was one of the the the milestones in the in the year. So I'm going to put you on the spot, though, and ask you to pick among your children and which is your favorite song? [00:18:57][17.9]
Speaker 1: [00:18:58] I don't actually think that I have a favorite show. [00:19:01][3.3]
Speaker 2: [00:19:03] I go back. That's such a parental reason. [00:19:04][1.4]
Speaker 1: [00:19:04] It is a parental response. I. Actually, go back and I listen to a lot of the podcasts, because even though it's you and I talking or it's you and I talking with other people, it still teaches me and there's still points that I feel like I can mine or understand or points where I can learn to to clarify better, create more understanding with. So I don't know. I love listening to the podcast. I have to be honest with you. It's kind of it's what I have dealt with. I have to process them and we have to write the show notes, and I have to go back and listen to them to write show notes. It's actually a really good exercise for me because it it, it teaches me things and I'm like, Wait a second, how could something that I made actually teach something? But it's it's your professional framework. And then the behavioral focus and then the voices of so many other people coming in with their diverse perspectives that just really is super powering my learning. I don't know how it's doing for everybody else. [00:20:10][66.0]
Speaker 2: [00:20:11] But yeah, and again, it's an invitation for everybody. You haven't told us what you thought of the show or you haven't taught us. Told us what you like throughout the show or what you want or what you want as topics, you know, you know, send it to us or [00:20:25][14.5]
Speaker 1: [00:20:25] some super cool people that you want to hear [00:20:27][1.7]
Speaker 2: [00:20:27] what you want us to interview that you love, that you think fits with the show. And that is a person that you want other people to know about. Yeah. Give us ideas, you know, on social media. Yeah. Email us. Just let us know because we're always looking for ideas because we're super excited that next year we're having really early in the in the year. Interview with Jess Hill. [00:20:51][23.6]
Speaker 1: [00:20:51] We are, yes. [00:20:52][0.6]
Speaker 2: [00:20:54] Who's written an amazing book on domestic rights. A lot of you know, in Australia, particularly. So she's agreed to be interviewed. So we're super excited about her and we're just lining up guests for next year. Yeah. So you don't have a favorite, is what you're telling me. [00:21:07][13.4]
Speaker 1: [00:21:07] I actually really don't. Got to be honest with you. All right. Do you have a favorite? What's your [00:21:12][4.6]
Speaker 2: [00:21:12] favorite? I have highlight ones I like I like. I have ones that I feel really, really, really good about. I am obviously super proud of our series, about officer-involved domestic violence. Yeah. And that is going to lead to a summit. We're going to do right. And so what I love is that that their ideas that we can test and those things we can think about and then and then we can kind of move it into training or systems change in another way. So the OTV stuff is going to be seen in 2021 in the form of a summit, which I'm really excited about. But I do think when you come back to your idea about sort of fertile ideas, I think that the ODB work particularly really helped you. And I think about systems and how systems are manipulated by perpetrators of domestic violence. And then how those systems do or don't interact around those things. Right. And you came to me and said, Hey, could you put something together on on how perpetrators use systems, right? And I took that. And you know, and just so people know it's not just the partnership that happens here on on the podcast, but it's outside of here. And it's I hope we have a good partnership around raising kids and having access. [00:22:34][81.7]
Speaker 1: [00:22:34] OK by my assessment is that we do OK. [00:22:37][2.4]
Speaker 2: [00:22:37] I just don't know it is. Usman is. I think we do too. This is like a marital end of year review to yeah, it's so funny. And so but but we went back and forth. Then we're producing material now. That's about what I'm referring to is Tier one and Tier two systems, right? And Tier one systems, Family Court, Criminal Court, including law enforcement and child protection are the are the government systems that have formal power over surveillance. And then the Tier two is is highly influential, whether it's mental health or addiction or other community services or faith community that we're going to be talking more in 2020, about 2021, about how perpetrators target each of those systems for manipulation and then why those systems are particularly vulnerable. Yes. To manipulate that manipulate. What about the way those systems themselves are designed or the functioning culture? [00:23:32][55.2]
Speaker 1: [00:23:33] Yeah, or the training, right? [00:23:34][1.5]
Speaker 2: [00:23:35] And so this was, you know, your idea that you pitched to me to kind of flesh out and I'm going to take on a life of its own. I'm really sure it is. [00:23:42][7.5]
Speaker 1: [00:23:42] And I actually think that it lands in the reality that right now, as you know, there's higher stress on systems, that load of stress is going to really highlight their dysfunction. That's just a natural response of any type of machine that's made up of of parts, really, and those are just human machines. And so I. Feel that it's super important to speak about the failures of systems and the ecosystem around survivors in speaking about the ecosystem around survivors and highlighting to people how many pressures and how much gaslighting exists around them, right? I'm hoping to create some empathy and training for people so that they have better tools to partner with survivors, to call perpetrators on their behaviors, to name the behaviors as abusive. Rather than putting all that pressure on a survivor who is in deep, deep trauma and alarm and is highly confused and traumatized and doesn't know these systems to then navigate the failures of those systems. I just don't think that's a reasonable thing to ask any human to do. And I don't think that we're we're recognizing the in trying to make people personally responsible. We're not recognizing that we're not making society response, right? [00:25:13][90.7]
Speaker 2: [00:25:14] And this was this year the hashtag fix system, not survivor. That's right. You know, kind of came up out of one of our conversations. And an example of this and then I'll share one of my favorite shows. This is this idea that if you look at studies or survivors, say about calling the police. And I was just looking at something that said that of the of the in the US. It's a small study that out of the the women who called the police, only 20 percent of those women said that kind of police made them safer. And and and so we can look at that by itself. But we also need to look at that in connection with child protection, which often says you need to call the police to demonstrate that you're protective. So if survivors aren't having a good experience with law enforcement, there's lots of reasons that we could. We could get away with the dangers we could name about that. You know that child protection need to be aware that the very thing they ask women to do that to demonstrate that they're being protective. Women are saying I saying that doesn't actually keep me and my kids safer and it actually may endanger. I may increase danger. And so you have this compounding of these things. So what you're going to be hearing more of this from? Definitely. Definitely one. [00:26:28][74.3]
Speaker 1: [00:26:30] All right. Now, what about tone? [00:26:31][1.1]
Speaker 2: [00:26:33] What do you mean by tone? [00:26:34][0.9]
Speaker 1: [00:26:36] Well, I don't hide my anger at poor practice that harms victims and survivors and their children. And I am very aware that the outrage and anger of survivors has never actually led to systems change, that there's a lot of women out in the world who have screamed to the rooftops that they're being harmed and abused, and that sometimes that actually shuts people down from responding to them in concrete ways. But I feel that it is important to normalize anger as a normal and understandable response to poor practice, to professional practice that's harming and causing danger because our job as survivors and particularly as parents, is to protect our children. And so that anger, which can probably feel very difficult. Resistance fierce has often been pathologize. Survivors have been, you know, diagnosed with operational defiance disorder. Once they're put in systems that want to control and abuse them. And then and so I'm wondering how the sort of righteous anger of a survivor is coming across to professionals. [00:28:02][85.9]
Speaker 2: [00:28:04] I think that your anger is beautiful and clear and important. I think that professionals need to get thicker skins at times about hearing the critique and the frustration of survivors. I think the. When confronted with survivor's anger, oftentimes we the professional those are the professional community, can feel powerless, can feel uncomfortable with that powerlessness. And then maybe even shame that we're not able to do more because we're human and these are complex systems. I think the well-worn pathway, unfortunately, the culture has offered us is. Blame women, blame survivors, get angry at them. You know, and and I think [00:29:03][59.6]
Speaker 1: [00:29:04] I think there's another choice. There's another piece I've witnessed in in advocating for of survivors, and that is is that even well-meaning people who are generally allies get angry at survivors for doing actions which are reasonable, but which the courts or their managers or a judge will perceive poorly. And so then they put pressure on that survivor to change to not do that. So, you know, it's to me, it's it's not all about the professional, it's about the the actual limitations of the structures and the practice that's disconnected from the realities of harm and danger to victims and their children. So if you have a certain set of frameworks and in family court that you're abiding by and they're completely disconnected from these other pieces, if you don't have the tools to translate that victims experience into language, which shows them as protective as being in the best interest of the children and highlights the choices of their perpetrator as a parenting choice. If you don't have the tools or the willingness to do that, you basically are just going to be frustrated because you're going to try to force that survivor into doing actions which you perceive a judge or an authority figure is measuring them by whether or not that measurement is poor or harmful. [00:30:41][97.3]
Speaker 2: [00:30:42] Saying is that even allies can tamp down survivor's anger, try to tamp down because they're saying this won't help you. Yes, and and don't make problems and don't make waves. And I think that's normal. You know, for any system of oppression, I think, you know, one of the things that the equity conversation anti-racism conversation has taught me is sort of politeness is the tool can be used as the tool of oppression, oppression. Don't speak up, don't absolutely don't make a fuss. And I also think we have to acknowledge that. [00:31:12][29.5]
Speaker 1: [00:31:12] But it's more insidious than that. It's more insidious than that. It's the pressure that that professionals feel like they're making progress forward and then a victim does something reasonable, say, for example, a perpetrator has triangulated her children from a different marriage and doesn't actually have any biological relationship, but has a has a relationship with the other parent of that child who is also an abuser and then their children are taken away from them. And even though there is no court mandate that that person can't reach out to them or see them when they reach out to them, they get abused and harassed and the the manipulations begin, which are fairly predictable. And then she gets blamed for it because it's almost people say, Well, you shouldn't have reached out. You should have known that would have happened. That's incredibly undercutting of human relationship love. Feelings of desperation by parents to have contact with their children. When there is, you understand what I'm saying, it's really twisted. [00:32:20][68.2]
Speaker 2: [00:32:21] Well, it's all kind of tied together because then a person in that situation gets angry at either what's being done to her or how the system is not supporting her. That anger is a normal, healthy response to that, and I think part of it is is we've been all culturally groomed. And I want to say this, I think it's important to understand this way because somebody asked me this question once about two domestic violence perpetrators groom. Their victims the same way the groom, everybody or sexual sexual abuse of [00:32:50][28.8]
Speaker 1: [00:32:50] domestic violence perpetrators groom everybody around them. [00:32:53][2.6]
Speaker 2: [00:32:53] But what I was, what I what I was going to say is that that that survivors are groomed by the culture, right? And we're all groomed, not just by the perpetrator, but by the idea that women are emotional and irrational and that men and to be [00:33:08][14.9]
Speaker 1: [00:33:09] and you should be [00:33:09][0.7]
Speaker 2: [00:33:10] quiet and you should be quiet. And the idea that that so that they're so I think going back to your tone, I think you've got a different voice than I do, and I really value that. [00:33:21][11.0]
Speaker 1: [00:33:21] You have a different voice than I do, and I really value [00:33:23][2.2]
Speaker 2: [00:33:24] my good and that's a partnership. It's pretty much a partnership. And I think it's it's really, you know, I will be honest saying, not everything that you say, I would say or I'd say it the same way think we're in tremendous agreement around values and around purpose and mission. But that I think sometimes you'll take a different, different tact and I will say a case of to take a breath. Mm hmm. And I think this is useful people to hear, which is sort of and go, we're separate people, right? And Ruth's voice and perspective, your voice and perspective will resonate with different people in different ways. Right. And that's the breath I take. And this is your time. But see, this is my my voice. It's yours. [00:34:07][43.5]
Speaker 1: [00:34:08] But this is what we all have to do in order to have this big conversation between systems. We all have to take a breath and we all have to know that we each have different perspectives. But those perspectives have to land in the preponderance of outcomes being good for victims and survivors of of violence, domestic violence, interpersonal violence, child abuse, sexual violence, you know, all of that. And so what I love about our conversations and and I I'm aware that people are much more used to very curated experiences where a lot of this personal content has been stripped away from it and this interaction has been stripped away from it. And they get a final product, which is a model or a tool or a direction. I feel that the process is really important to highlight because the process is the solution that we're trying to bring forward, and that is men and women in partnership where men and women can allow each other, their voices and their expertize and their positions and their and their perspectives. And then we can work together to find something that fits and works for everybody. I mean, it's kind of kindergarten stuff if you think about, right, but it's not well replicated and most people never see that process. And I wanted people to see the process right. I wanted them to see that. Different voices, different perspectives come together and there each of us kind of have to breathe in different places and know that it's a collaboration. It's a partnership. [00:35:55][107.5]
Speaker 2: [00:35:58] So I like the tone, and I think it's good, and I hope that the combination of our voices has been good for our listeners, and we're looking forward to carrying this into into into next year into 2021. And you know, like I said, some highlights to look forward to as Jess Hill an interview with her. We're going to be doing some segments on inside the segment, the other institute, which will be where we're going to be bringing on tape institute staff or faculty or certified trainers or partner agencies and highlighting their work and their experience. So we're doing that next year [00:36:34][36.3]
Speaker 1: [00:36:34] and then we're having a podcast takeover. [00:36:36][1.3]
Speaker 2: [00:36:36] We are just going to say the go ahead. Do you understand how you describe it? So we're working with an equity consultant who's really doing some coaching with me and we'll be doing some work with our staff around equity issues. And one of the things that we decided to do is that she's going to come on the podcast and interview me around equity issues and and, you know, and we'll have a dialog back and forth that's still in the planning stages, but we're really committed to that. [00:37:04][27.8]
Speaker 1: [00:37:06] We're hoping we record some podcasts. Not in our living room or office, but somewhere out in the world where we travel to in 2021. We would really like that to happen. [00:37:17][11.3]
Speaker 2: [00:37:17] We would, and I'm very aware that we're really lucky we are and really wishing that everybody out there listening is is had the best year possible they could have. But you found some comfort and some solace wherever you can find it, and you've been surrounded by people who love you and you love and return no matter what the circumstances you're dealing with are. And we really are wishing people a safe and happy, healthy holiday season. Yeah, I am. I am too. OK? And I think that'll be a wrap up. You know, we we we want you to be listening to the show and sharing it on all the different platforms and let other people know. And please write in with your ideas and thoughts and feedback, particularly on the theme music. I really want to hear from people on the theme music. And and as always, there's a discount code [00:38:18][61.1]
Speaker 1: [00:38:19] partnered all lowercase for the Academy Dot Save and Together Institute dot com. And you know, I'd like to to point out that, you know, in the next coming months, we will be working on redoing our website and hopefully we'll have a little bit more cohesion there. But there's a lot of free videos and a lot of free material for learning on that website that you could really drill down into and and tons of videos of training of keynotes. So I'm just going to encourage people to drill down into the Safe and together website and take advantage of that free stuff. [00:38:55][36.0]
Speaker 2: [00:38:56] Self-assessment Guide Assessment Guide Our ally guys [00:38:59][2.7]
Speaker 1: [00:38:59] like I choose to change guide resources for children, [00:39:03][3.3]
Speaker 2: [00:39:03] papers on gender, the gender paradox at the center, the Safer Together model and about worker safety. And yeah, you know, there's just we're relying on men's [00:39:11][7.7]
Speaker 1: [00:39:11] behavior change certificates of completion being dangerous, right? [00:39:15][3.4]
Speaker 2: [00:39:16] So tons of stuff. So if you haven't checked out that site, please go and do it. Yeah. And and I think this is it. [00:39:22][6.8]
Speaker 1: [00:39:23] This is a wrap for 2020, guys, and we're out and we're out 20 20. [00:39:23][0.0]
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