Domestic violence perpetrators do not only target survivors. They also target the professionals & systems who want to want to help them. Many perpetrators, often using money, privilege and power, leverage systems to amplify their control. False allegations of substance abuse, mental health issues or child abuse are lodged with social services and family courts, often to devastating effect. Other behaviors include:
Survivors can feel trapped between perpetrators and systems that are not savvy to these behaviors. The effects of system manipulation on the safety & wellbeing of adult and child survivors of domestic violence is often long term, financially devastating, and harmful to child wellbeing and development. In some instances these system failures can cause MORE trauma than the initial abuse itself.
In this episode, David & Ruth discuss how domestic violence perpetrators target practitioners in different systems, and why those systems are so vulnerable to these tactics. They highlight the vulnerabilities of family court, criminal justice and child welfare. They discuss how to recognize when a perpetrator is manipulating your system to harm a victim, and how to resist these manipulations.
Now available! Mapping the Perpetrator’s Pattern: A Practitioner’s Tool for Improving Assessment, Intervention, and Outcomes The web-based Perpetrator Pattern Mapping Tool is a virtual practice tool for improving assessment, intervention, and outcomes through a perpetrator pattern-based approach. The tool allows practitioners to apply the Model’s critical concepts and principles to their current case load in real
Check out David Mandel's new book "Stop Blaming Mothers and Ignoring Fathers: How to transform the way we keep children safe from domestic violence."
Domestic violence perpetrators do not only target survivors. They also target the professionals & systems who want to want to help them. Many perpetrators, often using money, privilege and power, leverage systems to amplify their control. False allegations of substance abuse, mental health issues or child abuse are lodged with social services and family courts, often to devastating effect. Other behaviors include:
Survivors can feel trapped between perpetrators and systems that are not savvy to these behaviors. The effects of system manipulation on the safety & wellbeing of adult and child survivors of domestic violence is often long term, financially devastating, and harmful to child wellbeing and development. In some instances these system failures can cause MORE trauma than the initial abuse itself.
In this episode, David & Ruth discuss how domestic violence perpetrators target practitioners in different systems, and why those systems are so vulnerable to these tactics. They highlight the vulnerabilities of family court, criminal justice and child welfare. They discuss how to recognize when a perpetrator is manipulating your system to harm a victim, and how to resist these manipulations.
Now available! Mapping the Perpetrator’s Pattern: A Practitioner’s Tool for Improving Assessment, Intervention, and Outcomes The web-based Perpetrator Pattern Mapping Tool is a virtual practice tool for improving assessment, intervention, and outcomes through a perpetrator pattern-based approach. The tool allows practitioners to apply the Model’s critical concepts and principles to their current case load in real
Check out David Mandel's new book "Stop Blaming Mothers and Ignoring Fathers: How to transform the way we keep children safe from domestic violence."
[00:00:16] And we're [00:00:16][0.6]
Speaker 1: [00:00:16] back and we're back [00:00:17][0.7]
Speaker 2: [00:00:18] and we're here, it is technically Valentine's Day in the United States and right here is the dog is ever between us. That's right on our Sunday morning podcast recordings. That's right. This is partnered with a survivor. And this is Ruth Stern's Mandel, and I'm the e-learning and communications manager. And you may hear Tiberius the dog in the back obsessively licking himself. [00:00:40][22.7]
Speaker 1: [00:00:43] David Mendell, the executive director of the Safety Other Institute. And this is, like Ruth said, part of the survivor. And this is a podcast about things related to domestic violence. It's about the Safety Together model, it's about conversations Ruth and I have about different topics, which is what today's going to be about. We're going to talk about systems manipulations by perpetrators, right? And why those systems are vulnerable to those manipulations and [00:01:10][27.5]
Speaker 2: [00:01:10] how to spot those manipulations and use them as part of that perpetrators pattern of behavior. [00:01:15][5.0]
Speaker 1: [00:01:16] That's right. And we also do interviews and it's one of our favorite parts of of doing this show as we get into a really cool people from all over the world. And yeah, if you've listened to this season already, you heard interview with Just Hill and and Ruth is working on some great interviews. We can't tell anybody now not yet for coming up. Not yet. And so I want to start by talking about how this. Now, I see this topic for this podcast came about, but just how we work together because I love it. And Ruth is you're a social media creature. [00:01:51][35.5]
Speaker 2: [00:01:53] I'm like a crawler. [00:01:53][0.4]
Speaker 1: [00:01:54] You're like a crawler. And if you [00:01:56][1.7]
Speaker 2: [00:01:56] don't know what that is, that's a that's a tech term. You know, you go out into the into the tech sphere, into the into the media sphere and you find different bits and pieces of relevant information and you bring them back. [00:02:10][14.7]
Speaker 1: [00:02:11] That's right. And you bring them back to me, to us and and you're talking to survivors. You're you're following trends on social media, you're reading articles and and then what often happens is you come to me, share a story with me or you come to the request for some material. And one day you popped up and said, you know, I want you to put together some material on how perpetrators manipulate system. Right? [00:02:35][23.8]
Speaker 2: [00:02:36] I felt like there was a real gap in the industry where we talk a lot about how perpetrators manipulate their victims. We do talk somewhat about how perpetrators manipulate individuals around them. But very, very rarely have I heard any type of reflection on how perpetrators manipulate legal means, such as litigation or entities like the police or child protection by false allegations or the family court system in order for them to harass and harm their adult co-parent and also impact how that impacts children that ongoing perpetration. Legal means of harassment, such as specious litigation in Family Court or in criminal court, has been widely allowed by the system, by judges, by lawyers, and we have allowed victims to be harmed and financially abused. So you're not acknowledging it as an industry. And I wanted us to acknowledge it right? Industry and face it. Name it. [00:03:52][75.8]
Speaker 1: [00:03:53] Claim it and change it. Okay. Yeah. And so you came to me and I immediately saw the need for in the fact that you were right. We had a gap and I started writing some stuff about about this. And the larger framework for me came into to focus pretty quickly, which is I started thinking through a tiered system, right? And Tier one. And this is the initial kind of formulation of a Tier one is is the formal systems of family court, child statue or child welfare and police and law enforcement, criminal courts. And the way I conceptualize that and just for people thinking, and please give us feedback on this because this is really evolving and this is a conversation, is these are systems with formal coercive power of of really ultimate legal system behind it to enter orders to change people's lives to to limit, you know, freedoms, you know, control access to kids and and then a second tier of these other systems, like the mental health and addiction systems and the special family violence, right. Services that that feed into. In some ways, they have their own power in their own right, but they're often very influential. So I think when we talk about today about systems and manipulations of of by perpetrators of these systems where we brought up against really quickly around issues of addiction. Right. And and mental health, particularly because those industries and I call them industries today are very influential and powerful in the decision making of right. You know, family court or decision making of child welfare. Well, when [00:05:36][102.9]
Speaker 2: [00:05:36] you think about the practical implications for a victim and survivors, a life of being harassed via court orders within, for example, the Child Protection or Family Court system, you really can get how financial abuse and harassment and coercive control continue. If you have a perpetrator who has more power and more money, right and more legal means, maybe they're a police officer, which is not uncommon that that perpetrators who are police officers use legal means to harass and stalk their victim, just skirting the law just enough to to to not be detected. But the pattern is always very much similar. Hmm. It doesn't matter if it's a police officer, if it's a politician, a judge, or it's some meth head living in a in a in a trailer in Kentucky, they use the same patterns. It's really stunning and really amazing. And so I thought, why aren't we? Talking about these patterns, which no one, if I was a judge, I would want to know that my court was not being used as a tool of perpetration. I would want to know with the warning signs were for that. And I would absolutely not allow that in my courtroom and I would appropriately reprimand the lawyer or the perpetrator who is using my courtroom that way. But judges don't have this information, so I wanted to bring this information to people who care about not having their systems used and manipulated by perpetrators, so they could be aware of the pattern and they could appropriately respond to it. [00:07:26][110.4]
Speaker 1: [00:07:27] So in response, you asked me for the behaviors of the perpetrator. I also came back in addition to those behaviors I came back with. Why those systems are vulnerable, I think, you know, I think it's important to understand this is where as professionals and people who influence policy and systems, we need to to self reflect and give tools right? Give tools to people you know where they can say, Wait a second, maybe we can close this vulnerability, right? [00:07:56][28.3]
Speaker 2: [00:07:56] So at least, maybe we can [00:07:58][1.9]
Speaker 1: [00:07:58] be aware, we can be aware of it. So let's start with with statutory child welfare and talk about that. And again, this isn't a system that I've thought about this first year. This this kind of court ordered thing, right? [00:08:08][9.6]
Speaker 2: [00:08:08] How do perpetrators how do perpetrators manipulate statutory child welfare? Well, number one is false allegations, false allegations. [00:08:15][7.2]
Speaker 1: [00:08:16] And this is where immediately you start getting into this intersection of mental health and addiction issues because frequently those false allegations are around well, this person is using drugs. This person is, has mental health issues, [00:08:31][14.9]
Speaker 2: [00:08:31] has a PTSD diagnosis. That's right, by the way, which I cause. [00:08:34][2.8]
Speaker 1: [00:08:35] That's right. We've actually seen we've actually seen child welfare. Well, I'll say this way. We've actually seen perpetrators acknowledge that they were violent to her and that their behavior caused the PTSD. But still. But then the system still giving him the child because because he hasn't been physically violent to the child and it's been deemed that she can't care for the child because of anxiety, depression or whatever, [00:09:00][24.8]
Speaker 2: [00:09:00] so he just gets to have another being to break. [00:09:02][2.2]
Speaker 1: [00:09:03] And I think when you name the vulnerability there, it's the vulnerability of disconnecting the the the adult to adult violence and also not seeing domestic violence perpetrators as a parenting choice makes those systems vulnerable to giving kids to people who have a history of violence. [00:09:19][16.3]
Speaker 2: [00:09:19] But instead of having, that's the irony that parental alienation is used, but that's that's classic. That's a real version of parental alienation. That's right. That's that's actually how the term should be used is when a perpetrator uses the system to alienate the victim from their children. That so, so really think about the implication to children of losing one of their parents who has been caused harm by the other parent and the system, handing that child who experienced all of that and lived in that environment. And I'm sorry, you don't need to witness a partner hitting another partner for children to be impacted by that environment. That's ridiculous thinking. And if you think that you've never lived in domestic violence or coercive control as a child, in fact, makes me so angry, I just start to ah. But. You cannot take a child and hand those children to a perpetrator. Allow that perpetrator to then form their view of the world of life and of behaviors which are acceptable. And expect that you're not perpetuating the cycle of violence. That's absolutely insane. [00:10:30][70.6]
Speaker 1: [00:10:31] So with you'll see a theme here, which is with particularly with Family Court and child welfare. One of the big forms of power. Why this manipulation is so impactful and so important to name is, is because it's a way for the perpetrator to to use the threat of losing children. Yes. Against the other parent, which [00:10:52][21.0]
Speaker 2: [00:10:52] is the biggest [00:10:53][0.2]
Speaker 1: [00:10:53] threat, which is the biggest threat. You talk to survivors and they'll tell you over and over again their biggest. Their biggest fear is not of getting hit, and I don't want to minimize that at all. But but they'll say over and over again, I'm worried about losing my kids or the children being hurt or the kids being hurt. And and so when you look at domestic violence perpetrators, you must see how they use children, how they target children, how they target the relationship between that other parent and the children. And I remember when I was doing men's behavior change where years ago that one of the more insidious threats was If you leave me, I won't see the children. And when you break that down, why that's a powerful threat as it requires. An understanding of that perpetrator of the emotional intricacies of the relationships. I know that the kids love me as the even though I've been violent. I know you love the kids. I know that when I remove myself from the kid's life, the kids will suffer and that their suffering will hurt you. Well, it's very it's very complex because [00:11:59][66.1]
Speaker 2: [00:12:00] because there's always a level of responsibility placed on the victim's head, right for having enough perpetration to leave no one. OK. People won't accept a low level of perpetration, and in family or friends or pastors, they'll say this is just normal relationship conflict. Right. So you have to actually rise to the next level of perpetration for the victim to feel like they're justified to leave because we take the we take the parental bond so incredibly seriously. And we don't want our children to blame us for harming the relationship that they may have with their other parent, which is good. But we're constantly trying to walk a line of safety and protecting the children, and we have all of these pressures on us, not just from the perpetrator, from professionals, from family members, from religious leaders, from mental health professionals who claim that this is a marital issue, not a domestic violence or coercive control issue. And we're told that as the responsible party, we're supposed to work it out and preserve that relationship for the children. So again, it's interesting that even that accusation is placing all the responsibility on the victim for the quality of the relationship between the children and the perpetrator. Well, that's an interesting. [00:13:32][92.3]
Speaker 1: [00:13:33] Right, right? And where you're speaking to is the things that make the systems, the professionals in them. Because the systems are made up of professionals, they're made up professionals, interact with policies and protocols, but how they make them, how they're vulnerable to perpetrators. And I think it to me that was in some sense I was less interested when you asked me about this, you know, how to perpetrators manipulate systems because I was so familiar with it? Right? For me, naming the the ways that the system is vulnerable to manipulation and and can and can make itself easy prey. Yeah. To a perpetrator. And you think about, for instance, that most guardians, ad litem or best interest attorneys or evaluators, that there's very little expectation formally that they have education and training in domestic violence? Right. And so therefore, what you're doing is taking and a friend of mine use the term naive practice. This naive practitioner evaluator who doesn't understand domestic violence doesn't understand perpetrators tactics is coming in with a with a with a mental health framework. Usually, you know, sets of diagnoses and and and therefore they're going to be looking for anxiety and looking for depression, maybe in both parents, maybe in one and then they're not trained. To think beyond the four walls of that clinical setting. Right. And safety issues and how to integrate them and how to integrate controlling [00:15:04][91.3]
Speaker 2: [00:15:05] how the environment of coercive control impacts children, that's very real and [00:15:08][3.8]
Speaker 1: [00:15:08] directly. That's right. And so therefore they become easy prey to the manipulation of the perpetrators as they think they're doing the best job possible they can do. I mean, that's what's so tricky, right? And that's where where people can become really defensive. I'm doing my job and I'm using evidence based tools, and I'm right. I'm doing these things. But but they're not being trained in a way to protect themselves from being the target [00:15:34][25.9]
Speaker 2: [00:15:35] right [00:15:35][0.0]
Speaker 1: [00:15:37] of the perpetrator's manipulation. [00:15:38][0.7]
Speaker 2: [00:15:38] And our own biases about what perpetrators act like and look like often get in the way of people recognizing that they're being manipulated. Perpetrators are not usually the scary monsters that most people believe them to be. They're very charming, right? They're very intelligent. They're very concerned about image. A lot of them. And so they're going to use all sorts of tactics, which seem like legitimate and normal tactics in order to get their way. [00:16:10][31.5]
Speaker 1: [00:16:10] That's right. So stay with our welfare for a minute. You know, we've got perpetrators who will call and make allegations against a new partner that she has again think about coercive control. Right? You have a new partner. I don't want you to leave me, I want to maintain control, I want to punish you. And so I pick up the phone call to our offer and say, you know, the mother of my kids, his new partner, and he's sexually abusing the kids [00:16:36][25.5]
Speaker 2: [00:16:36] I know of you been a better one about an old partner where there was prior children, children involved. And the new partner, who was abusive and coercive like controlling, immediately started managing the Family Court case for the old partner and the two children to try to remove custody from the other, the other parent because they didn't want them involved. You know, so it doesn't need to be new partners. It can also be old partners, but it's an extreme amount of control. [00:17:08][31.4]
Speaker 1: [00:17:09] So when we look at, you know, to our welfare and to some of these issues are going to really be very similar across family court and child welfare is is this use of allegations? For me, one of the biggest ones allegations around addiction issues are mental health issues. And I hear stories regularly because we're working on more projects looking at the intersection of mental health, domestic violence and addiction issues. And so we start hearing these stories over and over again of allegations that the partner, the victim partner, is doing drugs with no evidence. [00:17:39][30.2]
Speaker 2: [00:17:40] No. And then you get a court order that mandates that that partner has to go and get drug tested right every week, right, which is a resource strain, which is stressful, but really with the perpetrator is doing is they're showing their power and control. They're saying I can control the system. Even though you've never had a positive drug test, you've never had a history of drugs. I can get the system to torture you for me, right? This is a [00:18:10][29.6]
Speaker 1: [00:18:10] very powerful hearing and I, you know, even know a case where he did that from jail. He was in prison, right? And he called the welfare worker and the welfare worker went out and and and and hair tested mom. And it was in the process of doing training with them that he realized, Oh my God, I was just played. Yeah, by this guy, because he has no history in the hair tests came up negative, right? And now my relationship is damaged. I think one of the things is [00:18:37][27.2]
Speaker 2: [00:18:37] the trust with the survivor. Right now, damage [00:18:39][1.5]
Speaker 1: [00:18:39] is to understand the multiple layers here of harm. Yeah. You know, you said, you know, I'm demonstrate to you, I can control other people. I get what I [00:18:47][7.8]
Speaker 2: [00:18:47] can control the [00:18:48][0.5]
Speaker 1: [00:18:48] system. I can do it from prison even right. But but then I can be a [00:18:51][3.7]
Speaker 2: [00:18:51] convicted domestic violence offender, right? And still get the system to harass you. [00:18:57][5.3]
Speaker 1: [00:18:57] That's for me. That's right. And that there's not even a questioning of that. And so I think child welfare, unfortunately, because of its siloed mental health and domestic violence and and addiction services, I think those fields, I think because the evaluators history of focusing on mothers who are usually the survivors and being punitive to them, ignoring the fathers that we have this really perfect storm of vulnerability and manipulation. So these allegations get made. And and in the old days, I mean, this is if you think about this and you don't know the systems one, as the cases are often opened up in the mothers names. So immediately, even if it's if it's the dad of the male caregivers violence that's creating the harm. The message of the system is this We have a case on you, not him. Right? And and you can make all the pretty explanations as bureaucratic. It doesn't mean anything. But but but she's going to understand it as I have a case open on me and he's gonna understand is they didn't open a case of another case. [00:19:54][57.2]
Speaker 2: [00:19:54] I mean, [00:19:54][0.1]
Speaker 1: [00:19:55] and and then he's got and then he's going to use it against her. Right? And so imagine the threat in these environments say, well, go ahead, call the police. The police can call child welfare and and [00:20:05][10.3]
Speaker 2: [00:20:05] and find out there's a case open [00:20:07][1.3]
Speaker 1: [00:20:07] on this case. I mean, they're could take the kids from you and how that isn't an idle threat? No, that's not. And so when we look at these systems, we really have to understand both the behaviors of the perpetrator and the vulnerabilities if we're really going to make any headway, right? [00:20:22][15.2]
Speaker 2: [00:20:23] Right. And I think the other thing is is we have to understand the pattern of manipulation that perpetrators employ no matter what the system is, because the reality is, is is that it doesn't matter what the system is, perpetrators will find a way to try to manipulate it to their best interest. And as professionals, we need to be aware that that manipulation is potential of how it's usually done, of where it usually lands, what's usually used as a tool, and then how to resist that manipulation. We have to train professionals to actively resist right perpetrators manipulation [00:21:06][43.4]
Speaker 1: [00:21:07] and what I tell when I train and we're training a whole group of wonderful mental health and addiction and domestic violence professionals in New South Wales right now in a project that we're doing with with Cathy Humphreys. And one thing that will do. Some in this actually is taught in our intersections. He course as well is if you have somebody with a history of of of violence and depression and they are suicidal or make suicidal threats, right? You actually have to assess for three separate things you have to assess for danger of self harm. You have to assess for danger to others, right? Right. Because there is a correlation between those things and end violence, including homicide to others, yeah. But you also have to assess for manipulation because the threat to kill oneself is a huge and powerful tool manipulation that perpetrators do all the time. And so you have to be the to me, those three layers really kind of encapsulates the complexity of the assessment process. [00:22:18][71.5]
Speaker 2: [00:22:19] And I'm going to give I'm going to give professionals a little cheat sheet for suicidal manipulation, how you tell the difference between suicidal manipulation and valid suicidal tendencies. That's perhaps being used against a victim number one. Perpetrators will use suicidal manipulation all the time. They'll use it a lot. It's not. It's not a rare incidents to happen. It will happen quite regularly. But when you have a victim who's being terrorized by a perpetrator, that tension builds up over time and that mental health starts to erode. And there is usually one or two sort of like, I'm going to kill myself if I can't get out of the situation. So it's really good for you to assess why. Number one, they are threatening suicide. Are they threatening suicide to keep something? Or are they threatening suicide to be able to leave something? [00:23:16][57.5]
Speaker 1: [00:23:17] That's right, and it's very [00:23:18][0.9]
Speaker 2: [00:23:18] easy sort of to apply. [00:23:20][1.3]
Speaker 1: [00:23:20] Well, I think that's another place where where perpetrators manipulate systems because they will manipulate and this is both in child welfare and in family court, right? And someone in police. But the setting and police and criminal courts a little bit different because they're focused in a different way. But. This is where and I've gotten more clear, and you've helped me with this, I think in some ways, which is that that the that mental health diagnosis, while often given in the context of a professional, want to help somebody help them get better or help treat them trauma survivor now. Right? Often creates a vulnerability for the story for the survivor and child welfare systems in Family Court that perpetrators are happy to exploit over and over again. Yeah. Because domestic violence perpetration isn't a diagnosis. Coercive control isn't looked at through a mental health land, is looked at a behavioral and social lens that the perpetrators do not show up with the same level of of pathologies identified by mental health practitioner. [00:24:30][69.7]
Speaker 2: [00:24:31] Well, a lot of perpetrators resist going to counseling anyway. That's right, they would never get a diagnosis anyway. About their partner who's being assailed probably tries to avail themselves to the mental health industry in order to make sense of what's happening. And they've been given a diagnosis rather than being told that they're being coercively controlled and abused, which I very much object to professional mental health people doing. You should tell people when you know that the pattern of behaviors you're hearing is abuse, you should name it, and you should say it because you actually may save a life. [00:25:02][31.5]
Speaker 1: [00:25:03] Well, and this is if you listen to our last was our last episode on trauma. Bonding was at the last one, a recent episode of this episode. You know, we're talking about this, which is similar thing about about these issues being used against survivors, but that there were these researchers who were talking about the referring of of victims of sex trafficking as being trauma bonded. And they were they were like, why are we using language that is masochistic? Is is a throwback to this idea that there's masochism and that people like it and they're choosing it. And they suggest it and don't have it. The tip of my tongue alternative language really centers the perpetrators control and the coercion for which somebody remains trapped. And I think we've got a long way to go. I think mental health professionals, I've got a master's in licensed and professional counseling, so I'm in that field that that we have a long way to go to really upgrade our practice. So we do a better job integrating right into our conversations, our case formulations and having, say, diagnoses that the coercive control that happens outside the clinical setting and to really think about how we document and advocate for survivors and really put put our mental health and our professional. Credibility into advocacy for that survivor, we say, wait a second, this person's depression is a normal response to these behaviors. Hey, everybody. You should be looking at these behaviors because these behaviors over here, but this other person, they're very problematic. If we're we're considering safety of kids, if we're considering, you know, the well-being of a family. Yeah. And that that you have to ask yourself, do you do as a mental health practitioner, do a good job pointing those first tier systems like I said, like child welfare or Family Court at the source of the problem, because they are looking to you right to ask the professionals to create that evidence and to be the the the create the recommendations because judges will say, Well, I'm not an expert on mental health. I lean on my professionals in child welfare workers that I work will say, Well, I'm waiting for the report from the professionals. And so that second tier, so to speak. Mental health folks there, their vulnerability being manipulated, and they're siloed clinical thinking that doesn't really integrate in the course of control that may have caused it may still be going on. And and then doesn't have a vision of themselves as an advocate in those systems that will really make this person's mental health better, make their situation safer. That I think we need a really transformative view of mental health and addiction in this area. [00:27:48][164.8]
Speaker 2: [00:27:48] Yeah, I think so, too. I think so, too. So we we've kind of skipped around between police, child welfare and Criminal Court. Let's talk about the vulnerabilities within the court system itself and why it lends itself to being manipulated by perpetrators. [00:28:06][17.8]
Speaker 1: [00:28:06] So Family Court writing, Guitar, Family Court, I've got a list here. Oh my god, I've got a list. Family Court susceptible to manipulation by domestic violence perpetrators because of the history of of of a very gendered use of parental alienation. Concepts like that against mothers that then becomes used against domestic violence survivors who try to protect their kids may leave with their kids to keep them safe. Right. You know, are talking to their kids about the violence. All these different things then becomes fodder [00:28:38][32.0]
Speaker 2: [00:28:39] for that diagnosis, [00:28:40][0.6]
Speaker 1: [00:28:40] for that diagnosis and then being identified as the problem for violence. A lack of understanding domestic violence continues to be relevant, post-separation writes. [00:28:50][9.6]
Speaker 2: [00:28:52] It is often most relevant within the court context if there's not a high level of danger, coercive control and domestic abuse are most relevant in the Family Court context. That is the most common way that perpetrators harass and harm financially their victims. And really, we really have to start facing this and looking at it as a phenomena and having policies around good judicial practice so that we can be assured that the system is not being manipulated by a perpetrator. [00:29:31][39.4]
Speaker 1: [00:29:32] When you speak to this other really broad vulnerability which a lack of understanding of of the dynamics of coercive control, and again, I want to bring that back to the professionals who guide judges and magistrates, not just the judges and magistrates. But you know, somebody said to me once judges, this is a judge. He said to me, my job is to read a piece of paper and make decisions, right? You know, I think we've all been kind of all these courtroom procedurals on TV where there's these big trials and lots of evidence of witnesses and testifying that a lot of cases that judges are only reading motions and and briefs present to them. And so how things are described and documented is supervisor, right? Lack of understanding of the intersection, of course, control domestic violence, child sexual abuse, child physical abuse. Again, the siloing of oh of you perpetrated violence against the adult. Then, unless I have really strong evidence of child abuse and if and if there was child abuse, this other system would have found it right. [00:30:37][64.8]
Speaker 2: [00:30:38] So the gaps between the two systems. [00:30:39][1.6]
Speaker 1: [00:30:40] I think that's a really huge issue. And, you know, we can touch on that more. But but but we're talking to each system individually. The truth is, particularly these first tier systems, you know, criminal justice, family court and child welfare. They interact with each other and they're they all kind of impact the survivor and the perpetrator. And like I said earlier, if I'm going to call the police, I have to worry about if I'm a survivor. Are the police going to call child welfare? Right? And what difference is this going to make in family court if I never call the police right? Family Court's going to look at me and say, Well, this is incredible [00:31:14][34.6]
Speaker 2: [00:31:15] because you haven't called the police. [00:31:16][0.8]
Speaker 1: [00:31:16] That's right. But what if I'm a black woman who's afraid of calling the police, you know, because of racism or Aboriginal woman or whatever? [00:31:23][6.6]
Speaker 2: [00:31:24] You're the partner of a police officer and the police officers abusing you? Why would you call the police right? You know, [00:31:29][5.6]
Speaker 1: [00:31:31] I think another big area is, is attorneys, you know, and their their skill level and expertize right in this area. And I think again, you know, when I've looked at areas of legal ethics, yeah, much like other professionals, you're not supposed to practice outside your scope, right? But the question is, how is scope defined, right? And I think we're not supporting and expecting attorneys who are busy who have to make a living. We're not supporting them being mandated to know a certain amount of information about. So if their Family Court attorneys write about domestic violence and domestic violence dynamics so they can really accurately and and and give a full throated defense of of our advocacy for their. Well, this is a really fine if they're a survivor, right? [00:32:24][53.5]
Speaker 2: [00:32:25] This is a really tricky issue because even the court itself knows that the the level of of contention and litigation within Family Court is incredibly high. And they don't see it in the best interest of the children. Right. But at the same time, there's no there's no consistency or rules surrounding the, you know, litigation specious litigation. What happens when that when that occurs? How do you ascertain that that's happening? You know, what do you do as a judge when you have a person who is continuously bringing allegations before your your your docket just because they are a perpetrator and they are truly harassing their client and a lawyer is participating in this, all of this seems very normal right to people. It is a normal process. It does happen commonly within the family court system. And so I think part of it is is really stripping it out and making it clear that this is a manipulation. This is a pattern of perpetration. And as people who are concerned about justice and trust right of the justice system, you have to trust the justice system is working. We have to come up with a solution to this. And in a lot of people will be upset about it because it will bring. Reduce the amount of of hours they get to Bill. It's this is all real. [00:33:55][90.3]
Speaker 1: [00:33:55] I know and it's hard and I think about, you know, what does it take? Because I remember being somebody shared with me a case where where the perpetrator of domestic violence had filed 400 motions in one year right against his ex-partner? And how what is it? What is it not? What does it take right to send off alarms? And and it's really important to remember that if you just defined domestic violence perpetrators by by their acts of violence and you don't really get the ways they the pressure harass right and through their behaviors, exhaust [00:34:28][32.6]
Speaker 2: [00:34:29] people, exhaust exhaust resources [00:34:30][1.4]
Speaker 1: [00:34:31] and and that and that they're they're often very combative and they're often very challenging and that that takes emotional and physical resources for these systems. [00:34:42][11.1]
Speaker 2: [00:34:43] It is to me, it is our responsibility as professionals to be able to have a way to ascertain. Whether or not we're being manipulated by a perpetrator and call those behaviors to account. And there's so many ways to do that. The ways to do that could be refusal to file a motion and say, Hey, listen, mate, you know you can't use the court this way. That's wrong, you know, or it can be a mental health professional who is dealing with a perpetrator who says, so, you know, these behaviors that you're engaging in, this is considered coercive control and not just slapping a bipolar diagnosis on somebody butt, but actually standing against the behaviors, standing up and saying this is not acceptable because on the most basic level, even though we're dealing with adults, we're dealing with adults who have never been held accountable for their behaviors. [00:35:41][58.5]
Speaker 1: [00:35:42] Well, you raise a really interesting example, which is is what would happen if we had mental health professionals and addiction professionals who are really good at saying, yes, this person has a genuine addiction problem. This person has genuine depression. And we're concerned that right now they're manifesting a pattern of behaviors that are harmful to other people. And they could say both those things and they weren't shortchanging. And this is so important, I think, for when we're talking about people who are perpetrators who have experienced real trauma in their lives, whether it's it's from racism, whether it's from colonization, whether it's childhood, physical or sexual abuse, we shouldn't shy away from naming those things. We shouldn't be shying away from really giving people diagnoses of anxiety and depression, and that's really what's going on. I think part of it is there's been a polarization that, well, it's got to be one or the other. You've got to label somebody who's a coercive control or violent or having a mental health issue. And the fields have kind of been a war, a little bit, right? And there's really, in my mind, no reason they should be. And in fact, it makes each one of these fields stronger if the mental health field gets better at identifying and naming coercive control both as it impacts victims, but also [00:36:57][75.1]
Speaker 2: [00:36:58] that being coercive control or impacts your mental health. Right? I mean, [00:37:02][4.0]
Speaker 1: [00:37:03] I've always said, let's just [00:37:04][1.3]
Speaker 2: [00:37:04] be real. If you're wandering around the world like a raging bull trying to control everyone around you, you're going to be frickin neurotic. I almost use the F-word. I write myself, Yeah, you are going to be a neurotic mess. [00:37:17][13.1]
Speaker 1: [00:37:18] Well, and I always say to people that that people with trauma histories acting out in an abusive or violent way does nothing to help them heal their power. No defensive compounds and may compound to make it worse. And so and so I think we can get better on the mental health side and addiction side. Integrating these ideas are on course to control, and I think on the the family violence specialist side. We need to develop our language, we say yes. This survivor has an addiction issue, but one is does it really impact our parenting? Two is, is the perpetrator interfering with her getting recovery right? You know, three, it doesn't justify his violence to her and like really being super clear about these things in the way we talk. So we don't have to ignore that survivor's depression or anxiety, but we don't let it define them and become the feature that takes over right everything. Because when I was working closely day in and day out which I welfare, I can't tell you how many cases came in. And this is another example of how perpetrators. Our systems collude with perpetrators, which it would come in because of our male caregivers violence. Hmm. But all the casework would be with the moms mental health, the president parenting and so. So that really sets up those systems to be manipulated by those perpetrators because now all of a sudden, the threat I call child welfare is. Evidence, you know, is real, like she has had the experience of he he gets violent. She pays the price. [00:38:53][95.1]
Speaker 2: [00:38:54] Right now, we can describe the situation on the ground with these major systems as being open to manipulation. They are easily manipulated right now, which really erodes the outcomes for kids, creating more danger for children and for adult survivors of domestic violence. But it erodes our trust in our justice system. It also allows for perpetrators who have power to continue to compound their power if they're a police officer or a judge or a politician and continue to use those systems unchallenged, which causes untold harm. Really, the tendrils of this really right extend out into the type of corruption that costs us billions of dollars a year, you know, to me. Systems manipulation is one of the biggest costs that we have. [00:39:54][60.7]
Speaker 1: [00:39:55] And I've been doing work with a state here in the U.S. around around their human resources policy, around domestic violence. So this is about staff and turnover, right? And there's parallels with our conversations with Oadby and police departments around this, which is it's not enough to change your policies and identify manipulation, right? If you really want to stop or reduce the way perpetrators manipulate systems, you need to really advertise. And communicate to those survivors or potential survivors, look, if he tries to call child welfare, you work in child welfare. Let's be really clear about how we're going to handle this in a way that's friendly to you and really try to call out and identify his behavior. Because in the child welfare setting is really a great example, because not only might that worker be afraid of losing her kids, she may also be afraid of losing her job. And so the perpetrator has a double cudgel or something to use against her by by threatening to call child welfare on a worker who's in child welfare. So they're more isolated and vulnerable seem to grow IDB victim. Right? You know that that there's a there's increased. Vulnerability because. Of the association between a system that's supposed to be helpful, right? You know, being used against you [00:41:17][81.9]
Speaker 2: [00:41:17] and a lot of times perpetrators behaviors accelerate in their in their intensity and perpetration. The more people participate in their manipulation, the more people who are blind to it. They take a lot of glee in torturing their victims by sending, you know, police there for wellness checks or child protection there, or mandating that that victim has to go weekly to get a drug test when they've never even ever tested for drugs and don't have a drug addiction problem. You know, their perpetration starts to really accelerate with professional collusion, even though it may not be intentional because really, it's like a two year old child. It's like a toddler. If anybody has raised children, you know those phases that toddlers go through where you just have to challenge every single behavior that happens with teenagers, too. You were just looking at me. Oh, no, no, no. Doesn't this happen with you? [00:42:15][57.6]
Speaker 1: [00:42:15] I just have this absurd image of of a toddler calling the police on their parents, you know, threatening to call it. But it really, you know that older kids do that. But I really have a toddler doing that. [00:42:24][9.3]
Speaker 2: [00:42:25] You have to assess and you have to you have to be able to look a perpetrator squarely in the eye and say, you know, you cannot do this if you call child protection again. These will be the consequences to you. [00:42:38][13.5]
Speaker 1: [00:42:38] And I've seen that at work. You know, we're bound to start with perpetrators and it actually works and can be effective. You know, this is one of those things where it can be effective or it could escalate or it could escalate. But and this is where we have to approach slowly, but not once the ones [00:42:53][14.5]
Speaker 2: [00:42:53] that once the tools, the plates. But really, the places where I've seen it get violent is because the perpetrator was really used to having those tools at their disposal. And now suddenly some professional came in the mixed and they were like, No, no, no, we're drawing a boundary around you. And that's when things can really escalate into violence because they're calm down [00:43:12][19.3]
Speaker 1: [00:43:13] or calm down, calm down. Right? I mean, I think this is where it's a pivotal moment. We have to have this differential understanding that and go step by step, but not assume one is to always make it worse or that's always going to make it better. We actually have to look. And also, it can help to look at the perpetrators pattern of past intervention. Yes, BAE Systems. Yes, because I know I've worked on cases that were very serious. I think about one where the survivor I talked to her a few years later said, Oh, that period when you call child welfare on him was the safest period it had in a long time because they were watching him and he didn't want to get in trouble and he didn't want to go. And I think we have to really understand that some perpetrators respond positively to that outside intervention and some respond negatively and escalate. So let's talk about the police, OK, and how perpetrators manipulate them. And the things I've got on my list is calling law enforcement, making allegations of violence by the survivor that could be completely untrue or threatening her, or acting in a way that then she responds with violence because she's afraid, right? Because of of a of a feeling of threat to her life, of his history, of being violent and then him picking up the phone and calling the police. Hmm. And well, we, of course, [00:44:26][73.4]
Speaker 2: [00:44:27] are wrestling with coercive control a lot. It's that the psychological manipulations and the verbal abuse becomes so intense that a lot of victims will start to fight back physically against that, especially if they're in a corner, literally in a corner, huddled in a corner while somebody screams and yells over them. And then if they slap their perpetrator or try to scratch their way out of the situation and escape, that's when the perpetrator will call the police and have their victim arrested. So that's, you know, those are real manipulations that happen all the time. [00:44:59][32.5]
Speaker 1: [00:45:00] And then we have things like coercing somebody into committing a crime that's right or committing a crime and setting them up to take the fall for it. Right? You know, so you have, for instance. Domestic violence perpetrators coercing partners to shoplift or to steal some of the picture, maybe you don't have resources for the kids, you're going to do it, but or you're going to go and do this thing or, you know, writing false checks in their name and, you know, financial things, you know, it is a very common one. You know, these things sometimes straddle sort of civil and criminal. But, you know, engaging in these things and you know, I can't tell you how many survivors talk about, you know, he opened credit cards up my name or he. He wrote false checks in my name and I was the one held responsible for this. And so you have all these different ways law enforcement is is used by perpetrator. I want to add one. [00:45:57][57.1]
Speaker 2: [00:45:58] OK? Welfare checks, mental health checks Wellness checks are a really big avenue for perpetrators to harass their victims, particularly if the police that they're dealing with are not domestic violence informed or if there is a perpetrator as a police officer who is who is the one answering those calls. Well, the because they will focus on the victim. They are very willing to do that and particularly within a wide TV. Welfare checks are the biggest way that victims of police perpetrators are harassed and stalked and shown that they can go anywhere, they can move anywhere, and that that they will still have a police officer show up at their door unannounced. Knock on their door, accuse them of being mentally unwell, perhaps drag them away. And this is the power of the perpetrator. [00:46:54][56.1]
Speaker 1: [00:46:54] And then I get as the perpetrator go to family court or somewhere else say, I was worried. I'm the good guy. I was worried that she was no care. The kids weren't OK. So I sent police. I did the right thing. I followed the rules. I didn't go over there, right? I didn't harass or a stalker. I used the system right to check on her. And I'm a good guy, right? And I think that's really that. That's really very common. Like, like you said, yeah. [00:47:18][24.0]
Speaker 2: [00:47:19] So if you're if you're a police officer and you're getting multiple calls for welfare checks from a home that has had multiple domestic violence incidences, then you need to stop and question who is the person who's pulling the strings here? Come on, stop and think about it, and you need to really assess the situation because you showing up like that is their power and control. You are becoming their. Tool, right? I almost use the teenage, you know, like expression of that. Yes. OK. Don't be there. Don't be there tool. [00:47:55][35.9]
Speaker 1: [00:47:55] That's right. And I think about the case. I was presented to me where he actually she was going through addiction program, and he called and got her arrested while she was in her addiction program. You know, and I think that these things really show this, this tremendous amount of power, right? An ability to manipulate systems. And I think this is where we need to sit back and and say, wait a second. How did how do these systems get to be used by perpetrators? And and then, you know, what, what do we do about it? So I think we've talked about I mean, I think it's outside the scope of this, this podcast to talk about mental health, more religious institutions. That's a whole other thing. I think I unless you want to. Yeah, I want to talk [00:48:41][45.4]
Speaker 2: [00:48:41] about, do you think I do think that you have to be super aware of the ecology around survivors, particularly if you are somebody that is, you know, in child welfare or in any of these systems that have a huge amount of of authority to to really interrupt somebody's life and change the course of their life and change the dynamics of their family and cause great trauma, actually, that we really need to get better at understanding where we're being manipulated by perpetrators, which no one is increasing danger. It's increasing danger for children and increase in trauma for them as well. Right. It's costing us a lot of money. [00:49:28][46.8]
Speaker 1: [00:49:29] And I think part of it is, you know, to just try to wrap up on the on the on the positive side of steps we can do. You look at, you know, the work we're doing in this in this project in New South Wales with these health workers and we're really training them to think about how do you if you're a clinician, how do you use your power to in a more domestic Bronson form way? How do you not just look at diagnoses and and just sort of accept them? But really, how do you look back to connected back to perpetrators patterns? You know, and then connected back to, you know, what kind of advocacy this person need? Are they safe now to have control? So really being really integrated very much on that side? And then on the Family Court side, you know, we're working with family court systems all over the world, and a lot of these family court systems have gotten started to get savvy to domestic violence as a factor, which is great, which wasn't true a number of years ago. But they'll have. I'm thinking about one state in the U.S. they'll have 12 or 16 factors that evaluators are supposed to continue without any, any real detail about how they're supposed to do it. But like, how well do people co-parent together and and the parents relationship with the child and and also have domestic violence and one of the factors? And we refer to this as, in many ways, domestic violence neglectful of recombinant, because the domestic violence is siloed to that one factor and that the evaluators are not trained to kind of say, Wait a second, we should consider domestic violence perpetration when we're considering the factor that's related to the to this parent's relationship, to their kids. We should factor it in when we're evaluating the co-parenting relationship. We should now contextualize why the one parent was resistant to contact orders, not as a parental alienation thing, but if we contextualize it all, we can now see this as related to the domestic violence perpetration. And so I think that we just need to take that. The professionals need to take the progress we've made already and take it to the next level. I think we've got a lot of good groundwork going to go. This is me thinking in a positive vein, but really put the pieces together just a little bit better to be a little more conscious. The perpetrators, how are they target our system that we're in? And then how do we? Vaccinate ourselves, I was looking for a [00:51:55][146.5]
Speaker 2: [00:51:55] perpetrator, prove yourself, people. [00:51:57][1.8]
Speaker 1: [00:51:58] I was looking at a metaphor. You know what? I'm thinking about the like security military with like Harden hardening hardened like harden your perimeter. I didn't like that one as it, but oh, we've got vaccination. How do you vaccinate yourself against those manipulations? How do you how do you build up your antibodies? [00:52:12][14.8]
Speaker 2: [00:52:14] So perpetrator proof yourself, [00:52:17][2.9]
Speaker 1: [00:52:17] perpetrator, prove yourself right? But how do you do that in a way that really makes you better at your job, makes you a better clinician, makes you a better Dixon's counselor, makes you a better family court evaluator. Makes you better at this because it means you're going to do your mission, whether it's creating the best recommendations or our customer access for the court or really helping that person who is a trauma survivor whose abuse survivor heal. Because if they're living with continued coercion or threats or violence, you could be the best clinician in the world [00:52:50][32.5]
Speaker 2: [00:52:50] and we're still being abused. So it doesn't [00:52:52][1.9]
Speaker 1: [00:52:53] matter. Doesn't matter, doesn't matter. Yeah. So so I hope people listen to this episode and really think about where they're sitting, and I hope that survivors who are listening to this show really get validation right. [00:53:04][11.7]
Speaker 2: [00:53:05] I hope they feel seen. Yeah, because this is real. This happens every day. [00:53:08][3.7]
Speaker 1: [00:53:09] Yeah, you come back to me almost every day with examples of this. We're right, and I think it's important to understand because I think sometimes when we talk about language of system failures, and I prefer to really name the way perpetrators actively try to manipulate systems and then how systems are vulnerable. I think that gives us a better roadmap than just wheel systems failures. Hmm. [00:53:29][20.5]
Speaker 2: [00:53:31] Well, you're the nice person, and I'm the cranky survivor, and I'm going to say that it's very deeply impactful to survivors to have professionals all around them that are failing to do their job and identify the perpetration of the perpetrator. It is incredibly devastating and dangerous and incredibly devastating to children and their well-being. You know, so it's incredibly common, and we just have to start facing it and coming up with ways to perpetrator proof ourselves as professionals [00:54:05][33.4]
Speaker 1: [00:54:06] to prove ourselves like that, OK? So I think we really run the gamut for today's show. I think we have to OK. And you've been listening to partner with us, survivor. [00:54:14][8.2]
Speaker 2: [00:54:15] And I'm Ruth Jones Mandel, the e-learning and communications manager and crawler [00:54:19][4.1]
Speaker 1: [00:54:20] and crawler and and seeker of little secrets. I guess the [00:54:24][4.3]
Speaker 2: [00:54:24] maker of Nuggets, nuggets of information. You have nuggets for me. [00:54:27][2.7]
Speaker 1: [00:54:27] Please send them to. That's right. And I'm David Mandel, executive director of the Safety Other Institute, and we hope that you subscribe to our podcast. You share it with other people if you like this, that you go to our website. Safety other inside.com to check out all our offerings and lots of free material resources like our Choose to Change Guard and our ally guide and all sorts of things, and to be coming out with new material. We pretty much all the time and also go if you want to take you learn and go to our virtual academy at Academy Dot see fit together dot com and you've put together a discount. [00:55:03][36.3]
Speaker 2: [00:55:04] I hope I have. I have. It's it's it's partnered all lowercase and it is a 15 percent off coupon for any training. [00:55:13][8.7]
Speaker 1: [00:55:14] Partnered with an e d at the end. Get Partnered partnered like the time of the show. Yes, and I think that's it. [00:55:21][7.4]
Speaker 2: [00:55:21] Yeah, and we're out [00:55:23][1.1]
Speaker 1: [00:55:23] and we're out. [00:55:23][0.0]
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