Season 2 Episode 8: "I spiraled down to a dark place:" An interview with a young survivor of officer involved domestic violence and his Mum

The voices of children  impacted by domestic violence perpetrators  are being ignored by professionals.

In this ground-breaking interview, a fourteen year old survivor of officer-involved domestic violence, and his mother speak openly about their experience with systems.  Liam, and  his mother Michelle (pseudonyms) share  how the police colluded with  their perpetrator, who was Liam's stepfather.  They speak about how Liam and his sister were treated as after thoughts, and not victims in their own right.   Alternately between sadness and anger Liam talks about the failures of the police, child welfare and other professionals.   

Links to other interviews and stories with Liam and Michelle
Liam’s Op-Ed in the Age
https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/child-survivors-of-family-violence-need-to-be-recognised-20201206-p56kzq.html

Our interview with the ABC (radio) which caused complaints because a child spoke
https://www.abc.net.au/radio/melbourne/programs/mornings/victoria-police,-minister-apologise-to-woman/12363274

Sixty minutes
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Clth5kpkiJc

An article about Liam  and his sister https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.abc.net.au/article/12335894

Two articles about our story published in the Age https://www.theage.com.au/national/hidden-crisis-when-your-domestic-abuser-is-also-the-local-police-officer-20201203-p56k6r.html

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/systemic-problems-ibac-uncovers-police failings-on-domestic-abuse-by-officers-20201206-p56l0d.html

Now available! Mapping the Perpetrator’s Pattern: A Practitioner’s Tool for Improving Assessment, Intervention, and Outcomes The web-based Perpetrator Pattern Mapping Tool is a virtual practice tool for improving assessment, intervention, and outcomes through a perpetrator pattern-based approach. The tool allows practitioners to apply the Model’s critical concepts and principles to their current case load in real

Check out David Mandel's new book "Stop Blaming Mothers and Ignoring Fathers: How to transform the way we keep children safe from domestic violence."

Transcript

Iam super excited about today's show as well. 

OK, so who are we? 

Who are we? We are partnered with Survivor. 

OK, who are you? 

I'm David Mandel, the executive director of the Safe Together Institute. 

And I'm Ruth Stern's Mandel and I'm the e-learning and communications manager. 

And this is part of our ongoing series about officer involved domestic violence, and this is part of our overall partnered with Survivor Series that really talks about really. I say, I don't know if this is accurate, if you agree, but sort of everything related to domestic violence informed practice. 

Yes. Yes. 

And and we are excited to have so many listeners who have really been engaged in the series about officer about domestic violence. But the show in general, we are over 40000 downloads at this point after about 13 months of having this show. And it's to me, it's sort of gotten bigger and had more impact than I ever expected it would have. 

Right? Well, you know, one of the reasons that we felt it was really important to do this show is because we actually have a survivor of officer involved domestic violence who is an adult and a child who experienced and witnessed the violence and has wanted to advocate and speak up about their experiences and as a child, witnessing domestic violence because safe and together is all about domestic violence at the nexus of child well-being. This is a perfect way for us to have a conversation about how witnessing experiencing violence within a family in that context really is impactful to children. 

And if you've been paying attention the show we did a show a few months ago where he talked to researchers who had interviewed children who were impacted by their father's violence, their step dads violence. And that's one of the most listened to shows we have. And for us, amplifying listening to the voice of child survivors or any survivors or any survivors. And you're you're you're not a child anymore, but I'm a child. So you're a child. Survivor is so important to us. Okay, so what? Why don't we? 

Well, I would. I would. I would love to introduce Michelle and Liam, and some people in Australia may know them. They are survivors of officer involved domestic violence. Michelle is a lawyer. They did appear on 60 Minutes in Australia to tell their story. And I know they got a lot of reaction from the fact that Liam, who is a child who witnessed this violence, gave his firsthand accounts of it, and it made a lot of people uncomfortable. It really caused a stir. And so, Michelle and Liam, I want to say welcome to partnered with the survivor. Thank you for coming on. 

Thank you for having us. Yeah, thank you for having us. 

And so really, you know, over the last year, we've really highlighted this issue because it has to do not just with victims directly. So you two are victims directly of officer involved domestic violence. But officer involved domestic violence has a lot of different impacts out in the system because those officers have power and control over the way that justice is served for a lot of domestic and sexual violence victims. And if their perpetrators themselves, they're not going to be fair, arbitrators of the law. Those officers have concrete histories of engaging in other types of violent behavior, such as civil rights violations, excessive force and other types of criminality. So they bring a lot of liability to the system as well and a lot of cost. And we have really wanted to address the unique barriers and challenges that are faced by officer involved domestic violence because of the power and control. And the fact that that perpetrator can manipulate the system and they can convince people that they are in the right just because of their their status and in society. So this is why we really wanted to look at this and look at how law enforcement officers are impacting not just their immediate victims, but also other victims of these crimes. 

So, so we'd love to just start with. I don't know which one of you wants to start first, Michelle William, but just the basics of your story, you know, so just to orient our our our listeners to just what you went through and then we'll ask some more deeper dove questions. 

Joe, so I'll start. I'm a survivor of high end family violence, as assessed by the courts here. And I was the first victim survivor to secure a conviction against a serving Victoria police member in five years, which says a lot because we've under Freedom of Information, got statistics on the number of complaints against officers and the number of intervention orders taken out. But they all get withdrawn, they all get dropped, and we were the only people who made it through all the way. He was charged with 70 family violence offenses. He should have been charged with a lot more. He did a plea deal and they consolidated those offenses to representative offenses. So in Australia, what that means is, for example, there was an incident that Liam witnessed where I was bashed unconscious and I hit multiple times, but that ended up being one representative intentional cause injury, assault charge. So he pled guilty to the six representative charges, and some of those charges included assaults on the children and death threats against the children he threatened to slam down. He made lions loss absolute hell, but it took a year for them to charge him, and it took another year through the courts. And all that time they didn't. Vermont and his state, a police officer, and he was still a police officer after he was convicted and sent to jail. So we were living in fear all of that time. And he's never really had consequences because on appeal after being sentenced to jail, the judge blamed his PTSD, his offending, which we don't accept because he would assault me and then go to work and deal with family violence cases. And one of the reasons why his colleagues didn't believe us was because I never saw that side to him so he could control his PTSD at work, but being incredibly violent at home, and he lives pathologically about what he was doing, and PTSD doesn't turn you into a pathological liar. But unfortunately, the judge swallowed it, so he was given a community corrections order on appeal. So he's still out in the community and is still offending that he hasn't been actions by police. So we've we've sort of had a pretty extreme experience of it, but I have now got the program going. We're collecting the voices of other victims, fibers trying to drive change in Australia, and I'm discovering other women and other children who had the same experience as us and they haven't been able to get justice. One of the reasons why we could is because I know the system and I was working in the system, so I understood how to draft plans, documents, how to push police, but also how to keep safe. And a lot of women don't have those skills. And it was incredibly difficult for us to get where we do. If you want to say something about your experience, well. I guess in terms of people not believing domestic violence and also involved as well as well, it's not the bad person next door who like the bikey of the black guy who is going to do. However, they might do it. It's often the good bloke next door who murders your lawn, looks after your pets when you're away and just lends your hand. Which is why, when they're accused, no one believes the victims, which makes it all the more harder for those victims to try and get help. And when it's a cop? This isn't it. Yes, because as a cop, you have this status where everyone thinks you're this wonderful person and everyone thinks that you're still going to uphold justice and you're trustworthy, you're trustworthy and whatnot. But when that police officer engages in, well, officer involved domestic violence, they because of the power they can do so much more than their colleagues believe in, like they do. I could show you a completely different side of the fence than they do to their colleagues and their mates and their mates traded as an officer down situation, so we are assumed to be liars. Whereas procedure for family violence victims in Australia is supposed to believe the allegations. But I don't believe and within my population, 

it's it's kind of amazing to me. You know, the fact that we've set segregated in our minds that domestic violence is is not impacting children in this way. But there are thousands, hundreds of thousands of police families that have children where the children are in imminent danger because they're living with a violent perpetrator who is perpetrating domestic violence and often child abuse and child neglect and child maltreatment. And they're getting away with it because the police themselves don't recognize their duty of care to children to safeguard one thing. 

Yeah, there were statistics that came out this week in Australia showing that 80 per cent of child homicides are in the domestic violence context, right? We're seeing the risk, and when we've been speaking to victims as part of our project, we're finding that police come in, particularly when it's officer involved domestic violence and they fail to risk assess the children as victims in their own right. And quite often the first person I spoke to, they go straight to the perpetrator because he's one of them. So I get his business sense and then they'll speak to the children in front of the perpetrator and which is a pretty confronting when you're trying to go over saying your mother bashed unconscious and almost one inch of her life, Brian from person who did it right? 

Of course. Of course, that would be incredibly intimidating. 

You know, Liam, I just want to say how much you know what you said about the good bloke story. I remember at a conference we did last year was two years ago in Australia. I stepped in front of 200 professionals and said of how sick and tired I am of that good bloke narrative being in the media and just so it, you know, it makes sense that you'd have that reaction because there's too much of that. You know where it's set up, as the neighbor says he's such a good guy, and all of a sudden that becomes a central part of the story, and the voices of survivors get minimized in that kind of way because then people are struggling. Now they go like, Well, who was he? Was he the good bloke, or was he the violent guy? Maybe he wasn't as bad as his family, saying if he mow the lawn next or so, I very much understand that good bloke narrative and makes me upset too, right? 

Ithink that minimize aspect is a really big thing to just talk about, especially for children like me, because no one sees you as a victim. They all see you as an extension of the. No one wants to listen to you that I think even in the court we were, we were referenced as the complainant and her children, not as victims, not more as victims in her own right, which can be pretty damaging considering as a child, you experience domestic violence much differently to an adult. As a kid, you feel much more trapped because the parents they can leave while you, you're just a kid. Often you're young, maybe eight or nine, and you just you're helpless. Your help with the abuse, you're helpless to them, to the manipulation or helpless control. You're helpless to everything. And I think one of the things you've said to me when we've chatted about this is, you could say, the domestic violence widely than I could because I was making excuses for him and saying, Oh, look, it's the job, and he's not coping and and you were sitting there going, No, no, this is this is not okay and I'm scared. And there's nothing you could do because I was in that mindset and you could say it so clearly and I couldn't. Yeah. And if we just latch onto that a little bit and go back a bit where I saw my mom being bashed, we have, I guess, a part of mom's brain knew that there was something wrong. So she brought in the safety plan, which was if something happened. We have to go and just get as far away as possible and go have to keep yourself safe and not worry about me and just let mom deal with it, which is it's incredibly conflicting. And as a child, when your brain's still trying to develop and you're, I guess, sometimes not always thinking straight, it can be really tough. 

Ithink, you know, Liam, I feel the difference between experiencing that experience and witnessing that experience. And a lot of times people assume that witnessing that experience is less traumatic than experiencing it. But when you're in the middle of experiencing domestic abuse or any type of violence, your your your ability to shut down information and just survive kicks in. And so you've got a lot of, you know, a lot of different hormones and and endorphins running through you where you're just in survival mode. But when you're witnessing it and you're not directly being threatened by the violence, but you're seeing it, you're actually sometimes more impacted. It's almost like when women go through childbirth. And their partner has to experience that person going through childbirth, that woman going through childbirth has all these hormones going through her body, and she has all that energy for fight or flight. But the person who is watching her go through that is often sometimes more impacted and more exhausted and more scared because they're seeing it from another perspective. And so I really get what you're saying. 

Yeah, definitely. Well, I think one thing that you've said in another interview with media was that he felt so conflicted and so guilty that he wanted to go out and help me. But he knew that he wasn't supposed to because it would make it worse. And he carried this huge burden guilt and didn't talk to me about it because I was making excuses. And after that really bad assault, I wrote my ex an apology, not for setting him off. So he carried this took until it got to the point where I was starting to wake up to myself, and then he disclosed it to a counselor. And that's how it came out, the extent of what he'd seen. But the other problem with that criminal justice system is my ex would go off delay, and he absolutely hated him because he has a close relationship that we have, and I think it was a threat to him. All the Snow Lane was taking his time with me away was how he saw us and he would go after Liam and I'd get in the way and get assumptions. But the criminal justice system that is me getting assaulted, they don't process the fear that Liam felt would be six foot hulking police officer coming after him when he's trapped in his bedroom. And he was like eight, nine, ten years old. Yeah. And as a result of that, the fear that just controlling that, the stuff you hear, stuff you see, it changes fundamentally in your core, you. I wanted to do when that was happening was hot the room I would disappear and books full. I guess I was one and I would go through loads of books a week just trying to escape my reality because I was having trouble processing it and it was just so difficult for me. And then you had to think it's safe because your sister has a different view. Doesn't change. Yeah. So I see him. I really didn't like him and I wanted him out. But my sister, she only wanted him to love her. She like, that's all she wanted, and she would just keep trying. He would keep pushing her away. I think there was this time when it was her birthday and she gave him was play, I think. Yeah, and he took on the ground up and still, I'm gonna smashed it. And like, oh, yeah, and she said, I love you. And he said, Oh yeah, right. Which was really, really hard for her, because that's all she wanted. She was younger than me at the time, and all she wanted was for she do whatever she could, she tried to defend him. She she just wanted him to love her, and she just wanted the violence to stop, whereas he had a very different view and they used to bicker about what should happen. 

Right? And that's and that's normal and so normal that different members of the family, particularly different kids telling of their ages and their unique needs will have different experiences of the violence and the person choosing the violence and also the the the victim parent. You know, it's that's so normal and it's and it's and it's another level of strife sometimes that could be in the family and yeah, and conflict. So it makes complete sense. 

So one thing I think that really got to me when I was working on my daughter's victim impact statement with her was she was explaining in a victim impact statement, she just want a dad to love her and and the folks that he hit her. And that was her fault, that he was abusive at home because he's a police officer and he's a good guy at work and he saves the world. But then he comes home and does this stuff, and it's all her fault. And that was just gut wrenching, I think, h, I guess the children of, oh, I do they carry so much guilt and that guilt can stay with them for like a long time if they don't seek help and they don't get help. And while each child experiences domestic violence differently, say, because I was older than her that time and a stepchild and a stepchild, I saw the situation differently to her. And I guess depending on your upbringing, depending on your mindset, depending on your character, there are so many different things that influence how a child reacts and sees the situation and is different to your mom. So you've got different you had different support needs the whole way through today, but you were never seen as a victim and you were never giving differentiated support, even in the refuges. They speak to me, but they'd never. And if the kids had their own needs that that experience of violence differently and the reasons why Liam started advocating because he was really peeved about it. 

Yeah. Liam, so can I ask you a question? You know, you spoke about being invisible to a lot of the professionals and you just spoke, you know, Michel, you just talked about the refuge. And before you're talking about the criminal complaint, where is you and the children, right? Your children? Liam, can you share in another experience of where you felt like a professional didn't do the best they could with you and 

there know a lot of those? 

Just pick one of those 

one night where this colleague of him, his boss, his boss came in, it was like it was like eight o'clock at night and we were we were having dinner and he knocks on the door and he's in uniform. He's in full uniform, which isn't triggering at all. And and then comes in, sits down a table and then has to talk with us about how, oh, you shouldn't make a statement about him because because you know, if you if you make a statement and then he's going to lose, his family is going to lose jobs, going to with everything and a metal slug will lose a dangerous man. And and we don't want that happening. 

So wait, so wait. So can we just take a pause there for a second? Yeah. So basically, he threatened you. That's that's actually a threat because he's saying he's going to be a dangerous man if he loses his job and his family. And I'm not going to do anything about it. 

Pretty much, and then but then you had the experience of not doing anything about it because when we did give a statement and my ex found out he blames Leon because he just hated land, he blamed me as well, but he blamed more. And you just sent this message saying he was going to hunt the little C-word down, referring to Liam. No, there was a racial abuse in that text message as well, and we took place and the place was like, Well, I'm on holiday at the moment, the investigator, I'll deal with it when I get back and we're like, He's just said he's going to hunt the kid down. He's like, Oh, he's just blowing off steam. And it was incredibly terrifying for me, knowing that there was this six foot hulk of a person who has the whole bald police at his back backing him up and has access to a gun, has episode the has access to all of the police systems. No, no play check ins and all that. And it was and they did nothing because they didn't kill anybody. I believe I'm saying if I remember correctly, some messages were, I'm to that little then racial slur. And then and then they were down. And he is like, You guys are two rows among a thorn. You're throwing him. I've got a k that Judas and the it was not. Yeah, what? 

What a sense of. Betrayal that we're trained and and taught that police officers are to be our safe places, we're taught in school that we're supposed to look out for the helpers and that men in uniform, people in uniform are the helpers. But to be living in a situation where that is your experience of the police, not just the immediate experience with your stepfather or your partner, but that other police officers are supporting that, you know, not calling that out and not recognizing the danger. Is it? How did you deal with with feeling like there was somebody that you could trust? 

Iwould say that I didn't really do that, I because I after everything that happened. There were a couple of nights where it all just came crashing down on me and I spiraled down to a pretty dark place. Knowing that this person like that was supposed to be good, just betraying everything that I knew. And it's horrible stuff and I consider taking my own life. It was a pretty rough time. 

Yeah, I actually I, you know, I I really feel that because I remember feeling similar things where it felt like. I was the problem because I was told I was the problem, and I felt like it was better off for me not to be here on this Earth if I was the problem. But you know, that's such a typical line of people who are abusing other people is to lay the blame at the feet of the people that they're abusing and make them feel responsible for it. 

But it was the system that was doing it to both of us, too. And I think what really got to me about that incident with him coming after delay and wanting to hunt him down was they didn't take it seriously. And it's like this guy with a gun has just made it against a child. And you're saying you're going to finish your holiday on the beach and deal with it when you get back. And oh, it's probably just blowing off steam. It's like this guy has already strangled me unconscious, bashed me unconscious in front of my children, assaulted me multiple times, assaulted one of the children previously, my arms threats against Liam. But you're just saying he's blowing off steam. The evidence does not support that, he's just blowing off steam, and I think the message that was sending Leon was that you don't count. You don't matter. You're not here. We don't care. And I'm invisible. I matter to anyone, really. 

We're definitely not going to let you be invisible. 

That's that's 

where we want your your voice to be out there as much as you 

want it to be, and your voice is going to help other kids not be invisible, which we really appreciate. So let me ask the question about the other systems. You know, it's clear so much about the law enforcement system failed both of you and and Liam's sister, child protection, child safety, other professionals. Where where were the prosecutors, you know? Can you just speak to the wider the other systems or family court? I mean, we can we can start anywhere else. But I think it's it's important for people to hear how 

wide the 

yeah, just the variety of responses you got from other systems. 

So child protection, I guess considering that's I mean, they should be the most informed on how to deal with this one. They're not they. They came to the house and they were talking about pretty much just. Gaslighting our whole experience. I should probably go step by step first in terms of how they go. Oh yeah, yeah. So when I was making a statement, I was trying to escalate because the police had when I went to court and I met the domestic violence worker at court, which is the process here. My Exxon's boss decided to muscle in on that meeting and sit next to me in uniform and over beer. What I was saying, so I couldn't disclose to the family violence worker, ended up getting the Family Violence Intervention Order amended so that my ex could move back into the house and they brought him back to the house in a police car. So he moved back into the house and the violence spirals out of control. And I'm at the point where I can't take it anymore. He keeps going. After Liam, I'm getting assaulted. He's the son of my daughter at this stage and I was so broken at that stage. I didn't care about myself anymore. I figured I was going to be a coronial file, but I didn't want him killing my children and I was worried at that stage that he would. So I've contacted the police and I met with an inspector and I was trying to tell her what was going on, and she kept stopping me and saying what has been heard cannot be unheard. If you go forward and make a statement, I'm going to have to report you to child protection for not being a protective parent and you need to understand that's what happens. So she absolutely weaponized child protection against me, and at that stage I was at the point of breaking into, you know what? You take away my children, that's better than them being dead. Go ahead. So she met me and I got a full child protection investigation. I had typed a lot of conversations. I had a lot of evidence to show the level of police jurists and I this to child protection. So in the end, they found that they never should have been notified that I was a protective mother and they were on my side. But if I hadn't had all that evidence and as a lawyer, I tend to document everything. But I did have it and I had a boss that was that it was documenting things that work for me too. That also helped. But they came around to the house and they were like the kids had to be taken out of the house. They didn't know if I was going to collect them from school or of child protection was going to click. That was terrifying. Nine. Laying school that day, knowing that it could be lost on you. So your mother? Yeah. And also the kids gave video evidence and I was not allowed to watch. This is after I'd provided my statement. I wasn't allowed to watch them give video evidence because they said No, be used against you by child protection. You can't watch your children, you can't sit with your children, you can't support your children, which again doesn't happen to to most victims, but does to provide the victims here. That was hard, and it came out because the children went back to bed. My daughter was absolutely broken in the video evidence because they assumed that we were lying and that I had coached the children. So they went the really, really hard and the video evidence. It was it felt like an interrogation more than just give me evidence. They once incredibly hard and it made us feel as if we had done something wrong. If we were the people who should be getting in trouble, which essentially went on younger, can really screw with your mind and then you have to sit there sitting outside, waiting in the waiting room. So he was waiting for his sister to finish her evidence, and there were children getting bought through because this is a sausage, which is the sexual offenses and child interview saying yes, children getting brought in by police who've been taken away from their mothers. And so we're sitting in a room full of children who've been taken away from their mothers. And I'm the only adult there. And there's you got older siblings about Liam's age company, younger siblings, about my daughter, Emily's age, and now that I think it was hard for you. But then a week later, we're in that situation where he's at school, not knowing if I'm going to pick him up or child protection is going to take him to that sign, you know? No talk that was that. I mean, that was, like, really scary. I mean, on that day when we saw those kids, you just feel. Well, like, is that going to be me? Is that what's going to happen to me? Should we have gone here? Yeah, and it's kind of like we were getting punished, I think, for having reported and the message was that I'm a bad mother for having reported on a bad mother having not left, it was there was never the messaging was never. He's a bad police officer and he's this and should never have done this. We never. None of us got that message. That was after the bear. We got taken outside by a police officer from me and my sister. And they stood over the top of us, Oklahoma's as I was yelling at us, like shaking, shaking the finger down on us, like just yelling about, yeah, about him and like, ten seconds. Yeah, I was there. I was definitely the bad person. But what came out subsequently and what got media attention here was the kids. Well, my daughter, particularly Millie, used to like to play game with Liam. Yeah, we play a game pretty much, and application of ideas like hide and seek. One of us would be child protection and the other would be us and sons. And like if one of us lost child protection, we would try and catch a person, take them along. If they got them, we would take them away, which I mean, at the time. I think it's just your child mind does not process things. There's a lesson for you. Experience DV differently. But at the time, like the way this came out was my I worked for a domestic violence organization as a lawyer and my boss was leaving and going to another job in a related sector. And so he'd said, Oh, come on, bring the kids. And he really likes my kids and they were playing this game at the farewell function and people are watching it. These are all people who are sort of victim informed just going, What the hell is this? 

It's like, I just want to say really quickly, as a little kid, we used to be told that men with guns, we're going to come and take us away. And we were visited by law enforcement and by the FBI a couple of times. So we used to play a similar game because we were told that we were supposed to hide and not talk to them, so we would do the same thing. We play hide from the FBI, you know, 

and it's it's a couple of things. One is that supernormal and comments. Game playing is a way for human beings to gain control over things that are scary and stressful, and it's sort of normal for that to come out and play. That's one thing. It's just super normal. 

Actually, I would have to say the game playing for me. I don't know your experience, Liam, but it was actually a way for me to plan and to try on different scenarios about how I would escape from different situations if the danger was actually to happen. 

So you guys did that with the escape plan. Would you do a little bit thing like a little bit of playing? But for me, it was mainly just late at night. I can't sleep. It's like midnight. I'm thinking about all these possible situations spiraling. Okay, what will happen if this happens, if this happens, if they come here? How do I get out? What are my escape routes? How do I like? Do I like? How do I go for my sister? And then what I do? But my mom? And then we had another incident where I think my daughter had seen my ex's car near the school and that was in breach of the intervention order. And these guys have left and they've gone to the library and just looking after themselves. And they hadn't told the people at after school care. That's what they were doing. And then after school care, Corbin said the kids have gone missing. And I found out afterwards why they had and my my boss and my colleagues are going to call the police and I'm like, I'm not calling the police. The bay is my kids see a police car. The last thing they're going to go to was they know right away what is right. 

You know, and I go back to your stories about about child protection. You know, we teach we've been training for for almost decades now, child protection to handle any kind of domestic violence, not just officer about domestic violence. And one of the things we train them to say is we're here because we're concerned about a person's behavior, the violent person's behavior. That's why we're here. We're not here because you're doing anything wrong and we're concerned for. We're here because we're concerned, ma'am, for your safety and child for your safety, too. And we're very explicit in the training we give them to say that's the way you approach survivors. And and it gets a really good response when you do it that way because it's it's comforting. 

How would it how would it happen? 

How would it have changed for you if that's the way you been proactively? I've been saying we're we're worried about you and we're here because we're concerned about your step dad's treatment of you and your mom and your sister. 

Imean, that would have been much better because they were just, I guess, put a little thing into my mind saying, Maybe I do matter. Maybe. Maybe there are people who recognize that this is bad and that, yeah, but also if that threat hadn't been made about you getting taken away, I think that was so terrifying. So the kids, if I if the message had been, we want to keep you guys safe and together and support you through this and he's the bad guy, right? That got easier for you. 

Yeah. I mean, you already had somebody who is blaming you for the violence. You already had the perpetrator who was saying, It's your fault. You made me do this. Look what you made me do. You know, you made me do this. And then you already had his, you know, police supporters basically saying he's going to accelerate if you kick him out, so you better keep him. He better. You know, you better not report him because if you do, he's going to kill you. 

And we're not going to try to make sure that was really confusing. If we if we go back to the, I guess, the in the family just trying to like, I guess, gloss over almost the night. So the morning after I saw mom get bashed and she covered it up, she put on, I should have used a spatula to put on the mike. She put on makeup to try and cover the bruising on her face after he threw her into the didn't do anything about the swelling and the fact my eye was closed. Yeah, and then and thing that angered me the most was the fact that he came down and I was like, Oh, hello, oh yeah. He and mom said that she tripped and he was acting all like fine and dandy sunshine and rainbows. And that just something in is turned. And that was one of the main turning points when I realized that this was horrible. The. And I and I are sometimes considered like running away with my sister, but then I realized, no, I can't do that. And I just felt more drive than ever. Hmm. 

Liam, as you know, listening to you talking, it's one is that your experience is shared by so many children. You know, the whole range of emotions and the things you witnessed. I'm sad to say, you know that that kind of blatant pretending it didn't happen, acting like the injury was somehow magically caused by something else. Is the door was 

unlocked the doors? Yeah. The door was 

magically, you know, but it. But it wasn't really until I just woken by the person who did the violence acting like, it's like, Oh, are you OK? Is is crazy making, but I just want to say it's common in the range of reactions that that go through both adults and children. Your your reactions are natural and normal. I think it's part of what I think, and I'm trained as a mental health professional. I think sometimes we rush to make these reactions weird and and they're not their normal reactions to an unhealthy situation. I want to run away. I want to hurt myself. You know, I want to hurt somebody else. You know, they're just, they're there. What happens? And I'm just wondering going back and I know colleagues who are listening might be, but I wonder where this is, where there are any professionals that that you felt like really saw you on this journey that you really felt like that you got some connection from? I got seen by. None. OK. 

That's quite an is completely invisible to the whole system. 

And by the indictments, really when you think about it. 

But even going back to what we're saying before about course, bear in mind that of those 70 charges that were as the children were named as victims of those charges. So like I said, no assaults and threats and using a carriage service to menace in the rest of the threatening phone calls and texts. So they were named as victims. But the court still didn't refer to their victim impact statements the way they should have and referred to me as the complainant and them as the complainants children. The fact that they even got gaslighted by the county court, which is one of the higher courts in Victoria. These guys were absolutely distressed and then they haven't sent him to jail for doing this years and years and years of offending because they feel sorry for him and said he has good rehab prospects that at and the kids are still processing that because they were completely invisible to everybody. And the message from the system, including the courts, has been that they don't count. Yeah. And it's the some part of you that knows that well, but that's no, that's wrong. But even now to this day, like this because I because for so many years it was like, that is almost like a part of me. That's like, No, you don't matter. Nobody cares. 

So I would. I would. I know you got horrible responses. Really, the things you're telling us, are there collusive? They're supporting perpetration. They were directly threatening. Really unacceptable, because that's not just bad practice. That's liability. They're liable for their poor responses. If a child is harms because they threatens the survivor, because they threaten the children with taking them away from their mom instead of investigating properly, then they should have liability for any harm that happens. But I I wonder, Liam, if if you would speak to. The best case scenario. Well, you have wanted the response to be. What would have helped you? What would have made you feel seen and heard and safe 

if they had taken me aside and. And talk to me about, hey, you know, you're not alone in this. We believe you. We believe you. Like, you don't have to worry. And I'm just and I think that a big part of lack of help would be not having to consider a car unless you need them. Because if your parents the sometimes even though they mean well, you feel held back if you hold them. So. I think it's it'll be good if they took the trial aside. Just had a talk with them. Hey, we believe you, you're not alone. The. We're always here if you need to talk and or vent. You don't insult about us about anything important, even though it might be important in hindsight. And I think that's a really strong point to make, too, because I think all of us were minimizing the extent of the violence, including the children, by that stage. So stuff that the kids now say, Oops, still say it's minor, it's not minor offending at all. So like the firearms threats, that's not minor. But what we went through it was, I think we like you also need someone you trust to that like isn't in LA isn't automatically involved in an independent and independent capacity you can trust that isn't going to, I guess, leak stuff. And unfortunately, I think as a child, you feel the need to just latch on is try and get help. But with the police, when I took, when we tried to do that with them, they were horribly broke. The trust, which is why I've even to this day, I'm I'm not like, I don't trust easily. And I'm always making sure I'm always questioning what people people's motives are. Why, why, why, why are they doing this? What, what is us against them? I mean, I think from my perspective, in hindsight, for the kids rather than for me, what would have been helpful? So why did you send out offices and it automatically conflicted because their offices and they'll come in and they'll go straight straight to the perpetrator straight away, they have an automatic affinity, whether they know the member or not, but he's one of them. So you really do need someone independent sent out. And for the children, particularly so that the children are not missed and the children are seen as victims in their own right. So what I would really like to say is we have a police oversight body in Victoria called IBEC. I would like to see them have a family violence unit funded within IBEC and have social workers administer the social worker should be a female social worker. Preferably comes out when there's been one of these calls and has a soft interview with the children by themselves just to see how they are and to say I'm here for you. I want to keep you with your mum. I want to keep. I want to protect you. You haven't done anything wrong, and I'm here to help you and support you in anything you need to tell me. I won't necessarily tell somebody else. I just want you to trust me and know that I'm here for you. And you know, if if mum's making excuses, it's okay, you can tell me that would have really helped my children. Definitely. And and that person could be an advocate with police because they're independent and say, I'm worried about this child's welfare and you need to risk assessment them in their own rocks at the moment, getting risk assessed as children, as victims in their own right and they should be and then not being appreciated as being different to the primary. What they call the primary factor like me and the kids needs were very different to mine. 

Right? Well, child protection helped break 

the stigma against child protection and people and I guess social workers, and it will help all help kids get help and not. And yes, the trauma, they'll be able to deal with it and they will be able to move on. And that's the other thing. I mean, I speak to a lot of other victims and for a lot of us and they've seen what's happened with me, reporting doesn't help you. The police are not going to say they're going to protect their own. So you need that extra channel. Let's get the support around this family so they can get themselves safe so they can start recovering within themselves and get that strength because it takes a lot. I know when the intervention order was first taken out, I was glad the police had applied for it because I didn't want to apply for it because I didn't want to be the bad guy because I know what sort of violence he's capable of and I'll get. And it takes a long time until you get to the point where now we have a 10 year intervention order. He can't contact us at all for 10 years and I wanted that and I pushed for it, but I didn't have the strength to do that when I was back with him. I do now because I've been away long enough. I've got strong and I can recognize that behavior is wrong and inexcusable. Well, your 

it's not even just the recognition, it's it's that you're not actively being perpetrated against. 

When I'm not in back, Brian, I'm not in 

exactly when you're when you're in that place, you're really focused on just immediate survival and day to day ability to 

so many. You try and placate your offender to calm them down so they don't attack you. That's walking on eggshells all the time. Yes, and following behavior, too. I think that's another element that we've spoken about before in that the type of control that police officers exert on their families is different. It always involves weapons. But there's other things and this stuff that's come out sort of in recent months, the kids were just chatting about stuff that he would do to, you know? Yeah, yeah. So for instance, sometimes when mum had to work late, oh, he would come and pick us up from school. And he would get in and he would drive like an absolute maniac and these ex highway patrol, and he knows how to drive like a maniac, right? Yeah. He would go really fast and then brake suddenly swerve the car. So I was like drifting. If we lose like it was pretty scary. And I guess it was almost a guilt mechanism through us to mum because he wanted he didn't want mom working late hours. 

So I wanted to ask the next question because Liam, you're so you're you're so clear and so owning of your own experience. And a lot of people believe child victims lie, believed that their parents manipulate them and that they exaggerate their experiences. What do you have to say to that, to that idea? 

That is a isn't it is a truth. One hundred percent, but it isn't like this thing is like you want here because as a child, that only adds to the feeling invisible. But it's a truth for a different reason, though, because children do lie about their experience because I say it didn't happen, right? You're much more likely to deny that you're in a family violence household to try and protect either the perpetrator or your mother. From further violence than you are now, I think just is there. The video of audio recording evidence months after, she said. I just don't want them to go to jail. Yes, she lied in her about whether there was violence, and then they pushed her because they were trying to test her on that and get it to confirm that it was a lie. And then she tripped over and told the truth. And then they slaughtered her. But that was really hard, wasn't it? Yeah, and she was very shaken about it like that. She's only as is he going to go to jail now, and it's all my fault. What's going to happen now? And then she thought she was going to go to jail for killing a lot of the bad. Yeah, because that's how hard they went on us. Them, like the kids, would go to jail if they told life they which is just crazy. I don't know how you can say that to a child. And I'm sitting there going, No, no kids. Like, you don't send anyone under 10 in Australia to jail and you have to do like something really bad. This is not true. In the start of the interview, they said, Well, and we need you to understand that if you do lie in this interview, you will you will get in very deep trouble. And think they said something along the lines of like going to do something in juvenile detention. 

It sounds like you were threatened quite a bit by a lot of professionals and 

that you are very pleasant. I mean, they were convinced that they were convinced that the allegations were made up and that I coached the children. So we're trying to break children. And at this stage, they hadn't bothered to push into any evidence that hadn't got medical records. They hadn't spoken to my colleagues and I even got asked whether I'd done the strangulation bruises to myself and my. My boss was asked this and he was going, You can't get that sort of nudge by yourself, right? And the bruises on my thighs, I had colleagues going, No, no, the level of the swelling and everything else. And she was making excuses. This is classic domestic violence, but they were looking for anything that would justify their good gun narrative of this guy. Now he's a good guy and he's done nothing wrong, and he has this unblemished police records that we now know is not so unblemished. Given what's been the family computer, 

what's been the most healing or empowering aspect of telling your story? 

Ithink. I guess finding out that I am not the only one out there has been incredibly helpful for me because. I felt so, so incredibly alone, isolated. And and this knowing them, they'll learn and also this does having a voice, which it's almost like. It's so basic, but it's so good for healing, because if you have a voice, you feel like you're empowered and after so long of having no control of your life and living in fear, it's so much more empowering to know that there is stuff that you can control and it is your life now. And there's two things I comment on about Liam sharing his story in. The first is when we we first went on radio with that story on ABC radio, which is and the program we were on is a very popular program and there are a lot of complaints after Liam spoke. And the reason why there were so many complaints was I was discussing the amount of violence that I've been subjected to and he was clearly there. He was clearly witnessing me discussing these things that people took offense at. How could you possibly let this woman on there talking about violence in front of her child? What sort of mother is this that you're doing this? And what sort of media outlet do you put this to air? The absolutely outraged and the journalist was saying that he was there. He witnessed it. He was talking about what he saw done to his mother. He was talking about what he had done to him. It was very confronting for people. And, you know, I think it's uncomfortable for people to think about it from a child's perspective. And this is why it's important to hear these children because he should feel his discomfort, because that's nothing on what the children experience, why it's so important to hear voices like lambs. But the following day when there was this big backlash and they did another program and lack of child protection experts in talking saying no, it's actually good to validate these children, hear their voices and understand that their experience of domestic violence is different to their mothers and they should be seen as victims in their own right. There were all these older men calling in and crying on radio, saying, I'm so grateful that you put Liam's voice to air because that was my experience and I've never heard that experience giving voice before, and I'm getting goosebumps talking about that because it was just and there were heaps of emails that the journalists got as well from people who were child survivors and are now adults and have felt gaslighted their whole lives because we talk so much about women like me. But we don't talk about children like Liam. But the other thing that struck me and it was only in recent months, Liam, he's a teenage boy. He goes downstairs, he plays X-Box, and I'll come down in the middle of the night and he's still playing and talking to his friends. But he was in a very deep and meaningful conversation when I came down with one friend and I asked him about it the next day and he was like, All this friends, father and mother were drunk and the father was beating up the mother in the background, and then he's got other friends with. There's clearly coercive control, and his friends know he's a survivor and they're confiding in him and they feel trapped and there's no help for them. There's nothing, there's nothing available in Australia for them. And if they call kids helpline, then no, there's mandatory reporting, so they feel like they can't speak in that they betraying their mothers. If they do that in their tracks and just completely invisible to the system. But they get some comfort from being able to speak to their peers about this. And that's why I think it's so important that the system starts pivoting and focusing more on children as victims in their own right. But you're not helping the children. If you take them away from their mothers, you have to see them as a family unit can help them together. And in reason why I wanted to speak in those first place just to help other kids like me, because now that I know there are so many others like me in situations like mine or worse than mine. And it's like half your friends. Yeah, and I just I can't sit here and do nothing. It's like you have a voice. I have a voice. I have to do something. And if you have the voice and you have the chance, you have to take it. And that's why I'm speaking today. That's why I pushed so hard with my mom to speak, speak in the media. When she was well known, she was reluctant me to do in the first place because she thought AHA would be triggered and would get flashbacks. So you did a pitch to the ABC media yourself? Yeah. And then, you know, 60 Minutes and 60 Minutes didn't want to put a child to her. He asked for a meeting with the journalist. Absolutely. The language taught him. A new one is like, You need to hear my voice because you're gaslighting me. You don't put me on money. And I just it's I'm almost like channeling that part of me. That was trucks. And I, I'd take that part of me and I just channel it in, I guess, trying to help people like me. 

Ithink it's I think it's amazing. I I think I was so impressed and touched because I think back and wonder how it would have felt for me as a child to have a voice where I could speak about what was happening and tell people. And I also want to say that it should never be your responsibility to have to help everybody. It should be the adults and it should be the professionals. And it should be the friends and the family and the police, and it should be the people who we're supposed to rely on to make you safe. And so even though you're so amazing and so brave, you shouldn't have to be this brave. You should be able to go play basketball and do whatever the heck you want to play on 

this score and talk with your friends. Yeah, all 

those things, 

you know. So I know it's super empowering, and I'm so happy that you have that voice and and I want everybody to remember that they better do their jobs better. Seriously, we have to do our jobs 

better and we're speaking to professionals. So this is what we're hope they're hearing. And what I want to say, I am Liam. I've spent the last 30 years as as a male dedicating my life to ending male violence against women and kids. And I think today I found a new hero. And Ruth is right. You shouldn't have to be that spokesperson who's speaking out. But I do think for me, I have so much admiration and appreciation and have a sense of the importance of you as not only as a as a as a child voice, but a male child voice. And I think that's what touched those men, Michelle, that that you heard. And I think I think I think sometimes even the voices of male children may get drowned down in a different way than we get of girl children. And I think, Liam, I'm just so appreciative of you, your passion and your advocacy and your you being there for your friends and being there to speak up, not just for yourself, for all the other people are going to hear this and any other kids, I hope, are going to hear us. I mean, we don't know who is going to hear it, but we're hearing from all over the world. And so just know that your voice is going to be heard as soon as we put this together by kids, you know, in the United States and Canada, the United Kingdom to just we're so grateful, appreciative of you guys both being on the show. So so we're going to wrap up. 

We're moving to wrapping up the wrap up. Yeah. So we're going to ask our our normal wrapping up questions. And and so really, if you want to reflect back what you would say to survivors who are in a similar situation to you. 

And. I if if I saw myself right. If I saw myself when I was experiencing all that. What I think I yearned for was someone to confide in, so a whole how would really do was just like, come up to them and just I wouldn't ask like pressing questions. All I want to know is that I would want to let them know that there is someone there. There is someone there for you. You're not alone. You are not invisible. You, Metzl, and I think a lot of people self-harm or take over whole and the taking their own lives because they're so because they feel so. Invisible hand, they feel that it doesn't matter. So it change that if those kids can just live a happy life, then that will make everything better. And what would you say to for me? No, no. Sorry, go ahead. In the ODB context, I obviously, since coming out, have been inundated with contact from other victims. Some stood with the perpetrators. I'm going through the systems. I'm working out what they're going to do in some historic victims. And the one thing particularly that you hear and I used to say it myself, is, Oh, it's his PTSD that does it. It's the police department's fault. They don't manage mental health well and they don't. They terrible. They ostracize people with mental health problems and then make it hard for them to get help. But in all the women I've spoken to, there is a small percentage where mental health does play a role, but those guys have problems with professional standards, command or ethical standards. They they act up at work, they act up at home, they behave the same at home as they do outside, and there's violence everywhere. But for most of us, that's not the case. Most of us like me, where you're blaming the PTSD. But if it were the PTSD, he would act the sign outside the house, as he does at home. And if he's only being volunteers for him, if he's only being violent to you, if he's lying pathologically, that's not mental health, that's pure classical, vanilla domestic violence. And that's the message I'd really like to get out there that mental health is separate to domestic violence. One doesn't cause the other. There can be a correlation, and in some circumstances, they're related because they're behaving the same outside as at home, but it's generally not. So you don't need to make that excuse, and it's okay to say I feel sorry for him. Yeah, correlation isn't causation. Yes. I feel sorry for him because he has mental health issues, but that doesn't make his violence OK. That doesn't excuse what he's doing, and I'm entitled to be safe in my own home. And you are not alone in how you're feeling. You are not alone in feeling conflicted and guilty. But there are a bunch of us out here to support you, and whether you decide to involve the police or not is your choice, and we'll be here to support you if you do that. But when you do involve the police, you will have to absolutely nag them because they will believe he might be you. You do need to keep evidence, and there are some of us who can help you in how to do that. But the other thing that no one's ever going to tell you is you're in charge. If you want to press charges, that's up to you. They can't make you do stuff. They can't make you go and engage with child protection. You're in charge and you have your own agency and everyone will take it away from you and tell you that you don't have that right. Dan, we all do. And I realize that really lies, and I felt so alone, and I felt that I was not in control of the process because everyone was telling me I wasn't. But I did have that power and I took it back. And that's that's the message I want to get through most victims is that they make you a victim, but you can take some of that power back and you can't control what's being done to you. But you can start taking some of that control back and you're entitled to be sex and there's no excuse. The officer involved domestic violence, and it is worse than other domestic violence because of the status they have and the way they use it. 

Yeah, yeah. So we want to thank both of you so much for this interview and in this conversation. To me, it felt so powerful. Yeah, and I'm so appreciative of it. 

Ithink this is probably one of the most powerful interviews ever done with you. And and it's so real and so many people are so afraid of this topic. And they shouldn't be because we should all agree that we want our police to serve and protect, which is what their values are, and we want them to be in alignment with those values and that police who are perpetrators cannot do that safely or justly. And that's just common sense. 

But would you want someone like my ex going out to domestic violence, Colette, right? Absolutely. Unconsciously, you're going to handle it well. 

Right? And then we wonder why arrest rates aren't as high as we think they should be and why some women say they won't call the police again, right? You know, all those things are connected. So, so, so thank you. But thank you both so much. And we're going to wrap up and just remind people that you've been listening to partnered with Survivor. And I'm David Mandel, the executive director of the Safety Other Institute. 

And I'm Ruth Stern's Mandel and I'm the e-learning and communications manager. 

And if you're listening to the show and you like it and you have ideas for other shows, please email us, send us questions, comments about this show or other ones. And if you like us, follow us on Facebook on Instagram. 

Oh, and big announcements. David Mandela has his own personal Twitter account. David Mandel Yeah, 

I'm one of his followers. 

Yeah, that's right. You know, and and then you can join us and say, if we together and sitcom our website or our learned world's virtual academy 

academy is Academy Dot Safe and Together Institute dot com where there are free and paid trainings. There is a full officer involved domestic violence series podcast, plus the UK super complaint. We are having our officer involved Domestic Violence First International Summit, which has never happened before. And Leon and Michelle are going to be giving a workshop there as well on police and their duty to care for child well-being. Yes, and we're so excited. So that's May 5th and May 6th. And you can go on our website and register for that. 

So we we are, we're out.