Domestic violence has been depicted in feature movies before. "Enough," "The Burning Bed" and "Sleeping with the Enemy" depended on star power to draw in their audiences. "Once We Were Warriors," the dark, award-wining New Zealand classic, explored violence in an urban Maori family. Now the multi-award winning feature film "No Ordinary Love" (NOL) joins this pantheon of movies that glues viewers to their seats with view of intimate violence and abuse that is far too familiar to many of us. In this movie, coercive control, the topic of a current global conversation about how best to respond to domestic violence, is center stage.
Join Ruth & David as they interview Chyna Robinson (writer, director, producer) and Tracy Rector (executive producer), the powerhouse pair behind "No Ordinary Love,'' a movie about two families where status and power intertwine with coercive control. In one family the a pastor uses religion as tool of control. In the other family, a survivor struggles with a partner, whose job as a police officer, increases danger instead of safety and protection.
Watch the trailer
From the "No Ordinary Love" website:
"Lines between romantic ideals and control become blurred when Tanya's husband can no longer handle the stress of his career as a police officer. His warm kisses turn cold, and she is left fighting for her life. At the same time, Elizabeth's idyllic life is marred when her charming husband manipulates her into believing that she is going insane. As Elizabeth counsels Tanya, she realizes the signs of abuse in her own marriage. When both women decide to leave, they realize it isn't going to go as smoothly as they'd planned. The escape they seek, turns deadly."
David & Ruth talk to Chyna and Tracy about the mission behind the movie, the artistic choices associated with depicting coercive control, and the strong positive response the movie has already received.
Chyna Robinson, is the award winning writer producer, director, behind the short film, "Greenwood," about the struggle of WWI vet to protect his family during the 1921 racist massacre in Tulsa Oklahoma. Tracy Rector, a domestic violence survivor and veteran of the domestic violence movement in the United States. Chyna & Tracy brought their own personal experiences & cultural perspectives to speak to intersectionalities such as race, religion, the impact of cultural attitudes and systemic failures of entities such as policing & social services toward black women survivors.
Chyna and Tracy will be screening "No Ordinary Love" at many of the upcoming Safe & Together Institute events. We hope you join us and the NOL team for these events.
Check out the "No Ordinary Love" website
Follow "No Ordinary Love" on
Now available! Mapping the Perpetrator’s Pattern: A Practitioner’s Tool for Improving Assessment, Intervention, and Outcomes The web-based Perpetrator Pattern Mapping Tool is a virtual practice tool for improving assessment, intervention, and outcomes through a perpetrator pattern-based approach. The tool allows practitioners to apply the Model’s critical concepts and principles to their current case load in real
Check out David Mandel's new book "Stop Blaming Mothers and Ignoring Fathers: How to transform the way we keep children safe from domestic violence."
Domestic violence has been depicted in feature movies before. "Enough," "The Burning Bed" and "Sleeping with the Enemy" depended on star power to draw in their audiences. "Once We Were Warriors," the dark, award-wining New Zealand classic, explored violence in an urban Maori family. Now the multi-award winning feature film "No Ordinary Love" (NOL) joins this pantheon of movies that glues viewers to their seats with view of intimate violence and abuse that is far too familiar to many of us. In this movie, coercive control, the topic of a current global conversation about how best to respond to domestic violence, is center stage.
Join Ruth & David as they interview Chyna Robinson (writer, director, producer) and Tracy Rector (executive producer), the powerhouse pair behind "No Ordinary Love,'' a movie about two families where status and power intertwine with coercive control. In one family the a pastor uses religion as tool of control. In the other family, a survivor struggles with a partner, whose job as a police officer, increases danger instead of safety and protection.
Watch the trailer
From the "No Ordinary Love" website:
"Lines between romantic ideals and control become blurred when Tanya's husband can no longer handle the stress of his career as a police officer. His warm kisses turn cold, and she is left fighting for her life. At the same time, Elizabeth's idyllic life is marred when her charming husband manipulates her into believing that she is going insane. As Elizabeth counsels Tanya, she realizes the signs of abuse in her own marriage. When both women decide to leave, they realize it isn't going to go as smoothly as they'd planned. The escape they seek, turns deadly."
David & Ruth talk to Chyna and Tracy about the mission behind the movie, the artistic choices associated with depicting coercive control, and the strong positive response the movie has already received.
Chyna Robinson, is the award winning writer producer, director, behind the short film, "Greenwood," about the struggle of WWI vet to protect his family during the 1921 racist massacre in Tulsa Oklahoma. Tracy Rector, a domestic violence survivor and veteran of the domestic violence movement in the United States. Chyna & Tracy brought their own personal experiences & cultural perspectives to speak to intersectionalities such as race, religion, the impact of cultural attitudes and systemic failures of entities such as policing & social services toward black women survivors.
Chyna and Tracy will be screening "No Ordinary Love" at many of the upcoming Safe & Together Institute events. We hope you join us and the NOL team for these events.
Check out the "No Ordinary Love" website
Follow "No Ordinary Love" on
Now available! Mapping the Perpetrator’s Pattern: A Practitioner’s Tool for Improving Assessment, Intervention, and Outcomes The web-based Perpetrator Pattern Mapping Tool is a virtual practice tool for improving assessment, intervention, and outcomes through a perpetrator pattern-based approach. The tool allows practitioners to apply the Model’s critical concepts and principles to their current case load in real
Check out David Mandel's new book "Stop Blaming Mothers and Ignoring Fathers: How to transform the way we keep children safe from domestic violence."
Speaker 1: [00:00:17] And we're back and we're back, you are joining us for a very exciting episode of Partner with Survivor and I'm David Mandel, executive director of the Save and Together Institute. And I'm [00:00:27][9.9]
Speaker 2: [00:00:27] Ruth Jones Mandel, the communications and learning [00:00:30][2.8]
Speaker 1: [00:00:30] manager, and you are listening to partner with Survivor, which is a podcast about what I say. I don't know if you actually agree. I've never asked you. Like all things domestic violence, I don't know if that's a great way to describe it. [00:00:40][9.8]
Speaker 2: [00:00:40] I think that it's all things domestic abuse, including coercive control, OK? As it pertains to child well-being and family issues, OK, yeah, that's a bit of a big [00:00:51][11.2]
Speaker 1: [00:00:52] it's a mouthful. It's a mouthful. So we'll sort this out and figure out what this show is about, which it keeps evolving. Because if you've been listening to this podcast since we started last season, it started as a series of conversation between Bruce and I and has evolved, and it continues to have episodes where we just chat with each other. [00:01:10][18.1]
Speaker 2: [00:01:10] Well, their vision of it in the beginning was that it would evolve into including the voices of other survivors because no one survivor speaks for all its drivers and we have to partner with all survivors to do better. [00:01:24][13.4]
Speaker 1: [00:01:24] That's true. So I think that that brings us to today's episode, which we're super excited. Can you? Can you just say a little bit about about you found? [00:01:33][8.8]
Speaker 2: [00:01:34] I did this, so I kind of stumbled in the Twitter sphere across this movie. No ordinary love. And I watched the trailer and I was like, Oh my gosh, because the clips were so incredibly powerful and they were able to convey with a lot of subtlety, coercive control and different types of domestic abuse. And I was really amazed by it. So I reached out to the to the writer and director and the producer about potentially coming on the show because I feel that media is such an important piece of the puzzle to helping people understand the behaviors of abuse and talking about those behaviors in a way that bring us to a place where we can identify that abuse, but also know how to move forward and partner with survivors to help them. And this movie had some amazing clips in it where you really saw that it's super messy. You know, once you get involved in that situation and and it showed some of the things that professionals do, which challenge survivors and some of the things that challenge professionals who are also experiencing potentially experiencing abuse at home. So I was amazingly impacted by it, and I wanted to bring it to people because I feel like it can be a really good educational tool for professionals and a really good resource for survivors and victims. [00:03:09][95.1]
Speaker 1: [00:03:10] So we're going to introduce the powerhouses behind No Ordinary Love, which is an award winning. Feature film has won numerous awards, including Audience Choice Awards and the the the first part of this team is is China Robinson, writer director producer. In this film, she's she's had been a director, writer producer on the film Greenwood prior to this, and it herself has won numerous awards to China. Welcome to partner with Survivor. [00:03:43][33.3]
Speaker 2: [00:03:45] Thank you, it's such a pleasure to be here with you guys. [00:03:47][2.1]
Speaker 1: [00:03:48] And her partner in this project is Tracey Richter, who is the executive producer on on the film and was also involved. It sound like with China's previous project Greenwood and comes on board this project with her, and I'm sure Tracy will talk with us her personal experience as domestic ground survivor. And then a numerous years working in the fields connected to domestic violence refuge here in the United States, and brings all of that to this project. So Tracy, welcome to the podcast as well. [00:04:26][37.7]
Speaker 2: [00:04:27] Thank you so much. We're really looking forward to this conversation. So I wanted to like launch right in with, you know, sort of a discussion about this movie as being a piece of the cultural shift in the understanding of domestic violence as coercive control. And I kind of wanted to hear from both of you about how you brought that to this movie. Well, we tend to see domestic violence on TV and film as being mainly physical, but we more recently, we've actually identified that abuse is really about power and control or coercive control of one partner over another one. And the definition of domestic violence is a pattern of abusive behaviors with an intimate relationship, but in the types of abusers more than that, so that we know this, that the physical, emotional, verbal, financial, even spiritual. But the main thing is that coercive control is used within all of those different types of abuse. So regardless of that type of abuse, these relationships have that that's the defining factor as they have this coercive control, which really helps all of us work in the field and even the victims to identify that this relationship, in particular, is an abusive relationship when it has that identifying factor to it. So as far as the film goes to be done right, this story requires a really strong script to develop these characters in a short amount of time to show this relationship, but also to show that slow drip, drip drip of increasing intensity and that rollercoaster of emotions, the highs and the lows. So it's a challenge to build all that in an hour and a half to two hour film. Right, right. I was very struck by the success of that, you know, portrayal in the movie. And I know that you, Tracy, have lived experience. But China, you came from a different place and you wrote that in there, like it was so good. Can you talk about some of the things you did to prepare for that to get sort of the attitudes and power dynamics in coercive control? Yeah. So Tracy approached me about writing the film, and she knew because of the previous projects and Greenwood and others that I would be authentic. So whatever the issue was, I would do my research, and so she was able to trust me with that. And I actually had to write and see which she connected me with some of the people here in the area. The president, CEO of a local shelter, who then connected me with like an assistant district attorney, and I ended up speaking with over 20 women. I visited a domestic abuse shelter for women. I sat in on court mandated sessions with offenders because I wanted to get into their mindset. Also, like, what are you thinking? Gosh. And just, you know, I read every article that I came across, every report I researched, you know, statistics. I did all of those things. And with that, I was able to create these characters. With their mental state in mind. Like because I was one of those people, I was extremely ignorant. So what abuse really was? I was one of the people that brought up physical abuse, like that's what domestic abuse is, a domestic violence or intimate partner, violence. What in the world is that? You know, and I was probably one of the ones that would ask, why doesn't she just leave? Or he just leave? Like, if someone hit me, I'm leaving. I didn't understand the complexities inside of it. So the research allowed me to get to that point and really spend time with these characters. I got to know these characters. I built a backstory for these characters. You know, I knew their childhoods. I knew who their parents were if they had siblings. And you know what they did for a living like, I really built these characters because in, like Tracy said, that I was going to have, you don't have a lot of time, but you don't want to just come out with the monster. You have to build it because you need the audience to understand why it's so hard to just walk away. Yeah, that the force of control, I think, comes in because it's a mind of control of the mind, if you will like that. Yeah, we I think that it was really important that this story is told by a woman. I think a lot of times our films are not told by women, as we know traditionally and this particular story of domestic violence, I think it's important for us to hear it through a woman's creative mind. And China did the research, but to write the script. She had to take herself to a place to feel the emotions, the angst, the terror of these characters that these characters feel in the film, she had to get to that spot to be able to write the script to come across as well as it does. How was that for you, China? It was difficult, it was difficult, like again, with my previous project, it was a difficult topic also, but with this one, there's a saying no tears in the writer, no tears and the reader and I say the same thing for film. If I can write this and don't feel affected by my characters, the audience won't either. So I really had to put myself in the place of these characters like, you hear method acting for the actors and you become your character. As a writer, I have to become all of these people, including the abusers. I have to get in their mind, and I have to justify my mind why I would treat someone in this way. It's never right, but they have their reason and I wanted to address it so that I could attack it. If I were trying to justify it, then I wouldn't be able to come in and say, Nope, you're wrong, you know, [00:10:36][369.5]
Speaker 1: [00:10:38] can you say a little more about that? Because often the the person choosing violence is extremely polarizing. I mean, people get polarized around survivors, too. They often blame them. They often hold them responsible. Things are not responsible for it. But people choosing violence get polarized another way you just use the word monster. Right. And and so people will, you know, we'll talk about, well, he's a monster and make him one dimensional. You know, he's just he's just an evil dude. And then other folks will want to linger on his childhood abuse or or maybe the culture abuse. You know, he's a victim of institutional racism or is a victim of, you know, something else. And those feels like there's a dichotomous Asian sometimes, you know, just like it's one or the other, you have to be in one camp or the other. And how did you? Do that without minimizing the violence, the harm, the behaviors that are at the center of the course of control. [00:11:32][54.7]
Speaker 2: [00:11:34] Well, you know, originally the one film that came to mind when I started writing was sleeping with the enemy. I love Julia Roberts. I'm not even like opposed to that movie, but he was clearly a monster. It was easy. Of course you leave. How did it even get here? Like he was a monster? And I think it was important for me to make him a human first. Because then you get to get inside the head of their survivor or victim at the time of abuse. So where it's like the decision is not that easy. So I had to go and build this abuser as a human first. And like you said, it's either one thing or the other and people always say, Well, you know, it's the alcohol or the drugs, or he was abused or she was abused or whatever. You know, their backstory is, and I think it was important for us to show also, you know? You make the decision as an abuser. They're making the choice, they're choosing violence because they're not violent with everyone. If they get pulled over for a speeding ticket, they're not going off on the car. They're going home and going off on their spouse or their girlfriend, boyfriend, whatever. And so I think it was important that I dismissed or I didn't justify whatever their past was. If it was know there's a scene where we talk about how one of our characters, you know, he's a cop, he's black cop. And so there's some things in there and there stress in there, and I wanted to bring that up so that I could dismiss, you know, that being a reason for him to choose violence. You know, I wanted to pay attention to all of it. [00:13:21][106.4]
Speaker 1: [00:13:21] That's great. That's wonderful. And you hit on a point. I wrote a piece a number of years ago that said seeing domestic violence perpetrators one dimensionally was unfair to survivors because it would often lead us to judge her as stupid or dumb or, you know, ignorant. You know why she's staying. And so that complexity that three dimensionality is so important because that's the reality. These are people that that leave the kids or their partner, that loved or love or, you know, can have good characteristics and traits. And you also did something else I was thinking about. You mentioned sleeping with the enemy. I was thinking about burning bad, which dates me going back longer and and enough with Jennifer Lopez and John Mike going, I don't I haven't seen any of those because I feel like the characterization in most feature movies is so unfair, unrealistic or manipulated. And this movie is different. I mean, I want to say that to folks that this movie is different in its its directness, its immediacy, it's its lack of manipulation of the issue for entertainment value. So I think I just want to just acknowledge that, you know, because I have this bias I realized about feature movies are in the best balance. [00:14:39][78.1]
Speaker 2: [00:14:40] Yeah, well, they I think, you know, as as a childhood survivor of domestic violence and child abuse, people forget that these are people that we love. These are our parents. These are our mothers, our fathers, our brothers, our uncles. And they're not monsters to us. They do terrible things and they make terrible choices. And often because people are unaware of the complexity and expect to see a monster, they dismiss that violence because that person isn't violent all the time. So I felt like the movie did a really good job conveying the humanity and the complexity of the issue without absolving the person who was being violent of their violence. It was really good. I think this is a perfect place to talk about intersectionality because the movie has some great intersectionality is both with race and with that complexity. One of the perpetrators is a police officer, and one of the perpetrators is a pastor. So I felt that you guys did a really good job taking some of these intersectional issues and putting them in the movie and the complexities that come with that. And you had just mentioned China. One of the scenes in the movie where the wife of the police officer says, My husband is a police officer and he's black. Do you know how hard it is to be a police officer right now and be black? And that was such an amazing scene. Do you want to talk a little bit about why it was important for you to bring that intersectionality to the film? Yeah. What I learned in my research because I wanted to make this story universal and we all know that abuse doesn't choose your color, your background, your culture, your class or anything. It's pervasive. It doesn't care who you are. Control doesn't care who you are. But you know, statistics show that black women experience physical violence from an intimate partner, violence and at a rate higher than anyone else. Four in 10 women like that's almost 50 percent, you know, and then they also experience higher rates of psychological abuse. And there are four times more likely than white women to be killed as a result of domestic violence. So that was the first thing I thought about, which like, did I want to make this couple have this background? Or did you know that was one of the reasons that I chose the way that I chose? And I thought that was important. And then also black women inside of the system, when they report they're they're told to drop the case, which either means they're not believed or no one cares for them. And I thought that was important. And again, that's across the board, but higher rates of black women. And then also, I wanted to do that because black women rarely report their abusers if their abusers are black men, because of the relationship that our culture has had with policing since the beginning of time, decades and decades and decades ago. And so we don't want to turn over black people to the police. And so you have that loyalty and you have to make a decision. Do you want to give them over? Because we know that also, if they're picked up their prison, time will probably be longer, like the sessions that are setting in with the offenders. Not one black person was there, not one. And I said in multiple, not once was it that they weren't offered that opportunity. I don't know. But they weren't there. Yeah. So that was important that I made those characters be that. And for her to wrestle with that decision to arrest him. I mean, do I report him to be arrested or why not? Yeah. So I thought that was important in the end, just with the timing of everything, with the relationship, as it is with law enforcement and the black community, especially or people of color period being how it is, especially in the last couple of years. You know, we've seen videos and social media and everything people are talking about it. I thought that was important, that I talked about the stress of having that position. I don't care if you're good cop, bad cop, whatever, you're stressed right now because the whole world is looking at you and, you know, making their decision. But then also, if you're a black cop, they're extra stress because in the black community is like, you're a sellout, you're one of them. You're, you know, pick a side. Even though, you know, I will say that it's not about black and blue and, you know, whatever, but I thought that was important to bring in even just as just in one scene, you know it through the whole movie. But I thought it was important in that one line to introduce that idea. I thought you guys did amazing, an amazing, amazing job with that. You know, we've interviewed Dr. Leonore Bulan Johnson, who likes to be called Dr. L.B.J, and she is the best. I'm sending out some, some totes to her, and she actually deals with this issue surrounding police stress and police blacklist families in general and in particular with their stress levels, their mental health levels and then domestic violence perpetration within those families. And definitely, there needs to be a lot more attention paid and a lot more assistance. Now the other perpetrator was a pastor. Do you want to talk a little bit about why you chose the pastor and the police officer as the two perpetrators in the movie? Yeah. Well, since we were already talking about the police officer in that relationship, I'll start there. I chose a police officer because because as a police officer, officer about domestic violence is something that most people have been quiet about. We don't really hear a lot about it. We don't really talk a lot about it. But it is definitely a theme in research suggests that family violence is two to four times higher in the law enforcement community than the general population. So at least 40 percent of police officer families experience domestic violence and abuse, in contrast to 10 percent of families in the general population. So and then on top of that, I wanted to introduce that. Even if you do report a police officer, it's very unlikely that he'll be fired if he's found like if you test positive for marijuana, he's fired. If he abuses his spouse, more than likely, he's not. Yeah, yeah, that's insane to me. And I thought, OK, these are people who walk around and they they hold people's lives in their hands. They have this control all day and they're not letting it go when they walk in the door. Of course, again, not all police officers, but yeah, more than you think. So I actually want to play the clip. And if you could set it up, China, we're going to skip to the clip at the end where the the survivor, the victim of this officer, involved domestic violence. She reveals something to her counselor and the counselor calls the police officer's boss. And this is such a powerful clip. Do you want to talk a little bit? Just do a little setup before we play? Sure. So like you said in this scene, Tonya, who is the wife of the officer, he's just gotten a call from him saying that someone alerted his superior to the abuse that she was receiving. So she puts two and two together realize that Elizabeth is the one who made the call after their counseling session. I don't think some people realize how much potential there is for a dangerous or even fatal outcome in the way that you handle. If a survivor comes to you, you really need to know how to handle it. And I wanted to show that though she had really given good advice earlier in the movie in this particular scene. She really overstepped her boundaries and it put Tonya in danger. [00:23:16][516.6]
Speaker 1: [00:23:17] OK, OK, so we're going to go to the clip and then we're going to chat about it afterwards. [00:23:21][4.0]
Speaker 3: [00:23:23] Hi, Todd, how could you? I'm sorry. How could you call his boss? It was for your safety, my safety. And how did all of this play out in your head? Well, he would get arrested. He would get fired. I don't even have a place to go yet. Calm down. I will not calm down. You told me to get a plan together and I was working on that. You still can't. You don't get to dictate how my life goes. How dare you? I'm sorry, I didn't know, of course, you didn't know, because this is not your marriage. I was looking out for you. No, you weren't. You were trying to be the hero. You and faith deserve better. I made a decision. And who the hell gave you that authority, Tanya? He will kill me. You just killed. That is such a [00:24:24][60.7]
Speaker 2: [00:24:24] powerful mean, I can't even [00:24:27][3.0]
Speaker 1: [00:24:27] yeah, it's and and it's and it has so much embedded in it. You know, just sort of yeah, it's it's it's very powerful and very accurate and about autonomy and about choice making it about. I use the term professional arrogance when I train on this issue. And it seems like this is a good fit for this scenario, which is professional, substituting their judgment and feeling like they're right now. There's another side to that. I mean, I want to. Professionals in those situations often feel a great deal of helplessness and fear. I mean, I want to acknowledge as well, but there's a way that that some that is a way it ends up getting played out is arrogance, and I feel like we see so much of that in this in the world. There's more danger because more danger, you know? [00:25:13][46.0]
Speaker 2: [00:25:14] Yeah, that's that was that's just amazing. Do you do either of you when you think about that because I'm a little bit like flustered? Yeah. I think what's one of the things that's great about this scene is that it shows in a negative way what sometimes domestic violence advocates can do to their clients. And I think it's important that we see the honesty of this that now I believe that more of those in the advocacy field are trying to give the autonomy to the victim because she knows her abuser of the best. She knows when is the safest time to leave. And so what we do is help them get a safety plan together that they get to call the shots. They get to say when and in this particular scene, we show the opposite of that. But I think you can see that in a more profound way in this scene because of the way the counselor handled it. It was an amazing scene. So I want to move to a different scene actually again. And the other perpetrator is a pastor and there's a tremendous amount of coercive control and nonphysical abuse within that relationship. And the pastor's wife is the counselor who comes into contact with the police officer's wife, who is the police officer's victim. And that is a profound connection in and of itself inside of the movie, really acknowledging that professionals are also humans who also experience abuse at home, even if they're not having that conversation with other people. But one of the scenes really sets up that dynamic of coercive control and spiritual abuse. Tracy, do you want to set this scene up a little bit or China? Which one of you would like to dove in? I think what's so interesting about this scene is that it's it's like a turning point for the wife of the pastor because she all of a sudden starts to see her own marriage as having this abusive factor to it. So I'll let China sit at the scene and then we we can unpack it. OK. In the scene, we do see one of the actresses playing a pastor use coercive control to demand dinner be served exactly at seven p.m. every night as he watches over his wife, who's supporting lead actress so he will not accept anything less than perfection. As we enter into the scene, Elizabeth rushes in late to prepare dinner as Michael stands over her. What you're not able to see because we're using you, of course, the audio are her facial expressions reacting to his comments, her exhaustion from the constancy of his control and humiliation at his and his disapproval. So I guess here's the scene. [00:28:06][171.9]
Speaker 4: [00:28:08] Running a little late on dinner, aren't you? [00:28:10][1.9]
Speaker 3: [00:28:10] I had a session that ran over and then mom called and talked for over an hour. [00:28:13][3.2]
Speaker 2: [00:28:14] We wanted steak instead of the chicken I'd already prepared. [00:28:17][2.3]
Speaker 4: [00:28:17] Dinner should be on the table at 7:00. I don't expect your mother to care about such things, since her idea of dinner was a bucket of chicken on the table and not every night. But you know how our household is run. [00:28:30][12.4]
Speaker 3: [00:28:31] It'll be ready shortly. [00:28:31][0.5]
Speaker 4: [00:28:33] A wife's priority after God is her husband. And then comes work and friends and family, and that includes your mother. [00:28:41][8.0]
Speaker 2: [00:28:44] I said, it'll be ready shortly. [00:28:44][0.8]
Speaker 4: [00:28:45] Don't rush. Pass the seasoning. Any other man would feel unloved by his wife, he's coming home and not acknowledging him, [00:28:58][13.3]
Speaker 2: [00:28:59] just trying to get your dinner on the table. [00:29:00][1.0]
Speaker 4: [00:29:01] Maybe if you cut the cackle session short with your mother and I wouldn't have to forfeit my grade. [00:29:06][5.9]
Speaker 2: [00:29:08] Why do you keep testing me? [00:29:09][1.1]
Speaker 4: [00:29:11] Testing new. Never mind. All right. Explain what you mean. [00:29:16][4.8]
Speaker 2: [00:29:17] Never mind. I don't want to argue. [00:29:18][1.3]
Speaker 4: [00:29:18] So you're OK, great. You look so much younger when you smile. It's nice. [00:29:24][6.1]
Speaker 2: [00:29:30] OK, I need to deep breathe after that one. We all know that one of the other scenes in there that you can't see is as she's cooking him dinner and he sits down, she's at the island, she has a glass of wine. She just chugs that thing. So I totally like the movie is so real. It is unbelievable and that just I just feel so suffocated in that scene. You all did such a great job. You know, one of the things that we very rarely talk about is spiritual abuse, how deeply held beliefs and religious beliefs are used to remove the freedoms from partners, particularly women, and used to control every aspect of their lives. And this was so well conveyed in the movie. I felt like I was suffocating sometimes. Trace Tracey, do you want to talk about why you chose a pastor as a perpetrator or China? Do you want to? Yeah, yeah. Well, Tracy didn't request that. I write speech on specific types of abuse or specific characters or professions. She really just gave me all creative authority on that. But she'd experienced spiritual abuse, and we don't hear a lot about that. I didn't even know what it was by name. So both of us, she and I both live in the Bible Belt, and we see it all the time again. We just didn't know what to call it. So as I was writing the script, a news story broke about Paige Patterson, who at the time was the president of the southwestern Bakley's Baptist Theological Seminary, and the recordings that surfaced of him advising the woman to stay with her abusive husband because spousal support is not grounds for divorce, according to the scripture. So scripture and faith are manipulated, and very rarely do we hear our church leaders talk about that. So I wanted to talk about it. Tracy wanted to talk about it. So what better character to write than a pastor of a church? So he's abusing his wife spiritually, but also members of his congregation that look to him for leadership and guidance? Everyone loves him, so like he's a pastor, he can't be an abuser. Right, right. That's why I chose a pastor, not just someone in the church, not just someone who knows scripture, but he knows scripture, probably more than or better than most people. So I see you again, have your own experience if she wants to talk to that. Well, I think it was so important to me to show this spiritual abuse because I had experience that being married to a minister before. But I think also this particular couple and because he's a pastor and it it has involves the spiritual abuse. It's easy to show that coercive control and the lack of the physical and what that looks like and feels like for someone on the outside looking in, it's kind of hard to describe that kind of relationship in another context. And this hour, the actor that played the pastor, he just nailed the part. In fact, when he won his first Best Actor award at a festival, the festival director said we hated him. And that's why they gave him the award because he really did exude that. He was he was the spiritual leader of this pair of this parish, and he he was charming and likable, and everybody looked at him and looked to his marriage as being perfect. And there even some some parts in the scripture that allude to that. And so here is this pastor's wife living in this dichotomy. This two world she lives in this world at home where he's he has all this coercive control and he sprinkles his scripture readings and all of his religious teachings in with all of his control. And then she's it lives in this other world where she's trying to be professional within this church setting. And all these people in the church look to her as having this wonderful marriage is this super religious man and how lucky she is to have him as as a husband. And so it's interesting for her to be able to shout for China to build a show that dynamic within the spirit. I think so beautifully. I have to say that if I ever met the actor that played the pastor on the street, I would like have to be scared. [00:33:50][259.8]
Speaker 1: [00:33:51] I would be shocked. I thought, you going say something else? And then you could say something else. I was like, [00:33:56][5.2]
Speaker 2: [00:33:56] Oh, go on the other side of the street, honey. It's time to get back all the time, but it's more like not so much scared with if I catch him in the street. Dot dot dot. That's right. Like if at all the time, all the time. And he's such a great guy. Shout out to Eric because he really is an amazing guy. So was Leon, who plays the other guy. OK, Eric and Liam, you did a great job. Seriously, yeah. [00:34:21][24.8]
Speaker 1: [00:34:21] And I what I'm struck by is I'm really glad that you took to high school. Status abusers, you know, in that way, and I think because I think again, one of the stereotypes you know, is this idea of abuse, is it tied to poverty, uneducated? You know, and I think what oftentimes is that women in these circumstances often feel extremely trapped. And part of that entrapment is the status of their partners and their ability not only to control in the household, but their public face that that manipulation and you know, the the way that that people defer to them in other settings. And so you imagine of child protection gets involved with a police officer, Typekit gets involved with a pastor or showing up in court. You know that there's there's you know, there's this automatic deference [00:35:18][57.1]
Speaker 2: [00:35:19] power, there's a power [00:35:20][0.7]
Speaker 1: [00:35:20] dynamic. So I don't know if you want to talk about that, the deference, you know, you kind of alluded to, but for both of them, the systems pieces, now the system responds to them, and it would be great to hear you talk about that. [00:35:33][12.6]
Speaker 2: [00:35:34] Yeah, I mean, like police officers are the community heroes, right? Like there it's it's pretty interesting because it's scary for the victim at the time of of the abuse because, you know, police officers, they carry weapons, they are trained to use their lethal weapons. They're trained to stop people without them noticing. You know, and if you go to court against a police officer like it's the same justice system, they're all in that same justice system together. So where the cops may know the judge, the cops definitely are tied into the sergeants and the, you know, the people that hold the power. So who would I be or a person who's receiving abuse? How much weight do you hold coming against a police officer in a courtroom, right? Yeah. Will you be believed, you know? Well, they're a hero on paper. They're like, What if they're a stellar police officer? And they have all of these great recommendations and reports? And then who's going to believe you? Because when his peers come out, if they answer the call, their peers come out, are they going to arrest them or are they going to even really make a record that they went out there to me? See, that's not the case. And with the police officer like Tracy mentioned, this is a person who is beloved in their in their church, in their congregation. He's he's a great man. You know, scripture. He knows God. He's close to God. And who are you, his wife? Right, women in the church are first ladies, they're the pastor's wife. And in one of the things I actually had Tanya introduce herself as his wife. Not just I'm Tanya, it's I'm Tonya, Derek's wife, because you start to be identified through who they are. Yeah, I am like all for everybody everywhere. Getting it through their heads that just because somebody has a position of power, a title does good things out in the world. Helped somebody was kind to you, was funny, is knowledgeable, is good at their job. None of that means that they're not abusing somebody at home. Absolutely zero of that has to do with it. So we, you know, we have to get past this. That person has a badge, that person has a credential, that person has awards, that person has prestige. That is actually more of a reason for us to look at those allegations and investigate them and look at the patterns of that person and look at their prior relationships and their treatment of their coworkers and so on and so forth because of the power that that person has over other people's lives. [00:38:32][178.2]
Speaker 1: [00:38:33] I ran groups from those groups trying to you sat in on, you know, those kind of groups. For 20 years, I ran a program and did work with with men who had been arrested and some who are arrested and. And there was rarely a man that I didn't like. In a personal interaction with them that I found distasteful in the way that they interacted with me. And so for me, I would talk to their partners. I would read reports. I would always ground myself in the partners experience and not with the story and not their presentation or even my feelings about them. And I think that's that's what we all need to be willing to do is say, wait a second. I don't have to be so trusting of my experience because because his partner's experience may be different and this is for me as a man, something I'll just sort of say this is a man that I've had to learn over the years, which is that I might have a one perspective on somebody. And then a female partner, a female friend, may say, No, no, no, no, no, you know, I'm picking up a completely different vibe or something else happened with them. And I've had to learn to trust that that an experience is real and valid, and there's a different life experience. It gives you a different radar that gives you a different perspective that you're being treated differently, whether it's energetic or or more overt. I think the same thing is true around race, the way people have to sit back and go, Wait a second, I can't my experience the white person. This is not the experience of what's going on. And and so but I think it's it's so hard, I think, for people to listen to women's experience and it gets devalued so much. [00:40:17][103.5]
Speaker 2: [00:40:17] Well, the first thing that a perpetrator does is says she's crazy, right? That's right. And and you know, you actually see some of that in this film as well. You all did a really good job conveying that. [00:40:31][13.6]
Speaker 1: [00:40:32] I mean, I'll say the obvious. I say the obvious. I'm sort of the one saying this stuff here, which is that's not a random statement. It's based on stereotyping of women. You know, it's not a random like, you know, [00:40:44][11.6]
Speaker 2: [00:40:45] no, there's lots of preparation. [00:40:46][0.9]
Speaker 1: [00:40:46] It's very specific. There's the culture is groomed, all of us to believe those guys when they say, though. So I think it's it's it's it's important for us to unpack these biases and these attitudes. And and the film does a great job. I mean, can you talk? I don't. There's not our list of questions, but can you talk about some of the conversations you've had after showings? I'm assuming you've that, that you you're there as as the director, the executive producer, and you show these films at film festivals and then you do a Q&A afterwards, right? Can you talk a little bit about some of those experiences that you've had? [00:41:22][35.7]
Speaker 2: [00:41:23] We for our very first premiere, it was really for our cast and crew. And one of the medical students that had helped with the film she came up after and she was just like, Oh my gosh, this was me. I was in this situation, and it's so accurate. So so what my experience was and thank you. And then we had another woman come and say, I just left my abuser a couple of weeks ago. And it was getting hard financially for me, and I was going to go back until tonight. And now I will find another way. I'll find other resources. And, you know, so we directed them to information that we had on hand and you know, they're doing well. Another one didn't even know she was being abused. She was like, I'm not weak. So when you know, I would fight back and I didn't realize it was abuse because women who are abused are weak, and she just got a whole revelation like her husband was absolutely, extremely physically violent, like throwing her through a wall is one of the examples that she gave, and she never considered herself suffering from the abuse, which we've had professionals come up to us and say, Wow, this is accurate. This is exactly, you know, like the conversation that we had. You were able to touch on some things that we overlook a lot like the spiritual abuse and really financial abuse we got into slightly and just the psychological abuse, you know, the coercive control. And that's something that, as we said when we opened a lot of movies and a lot of media don't touch her, there are some. But with yeah, like survivors who've said, you know, they've they've been really grateful and that's so heartwarming to know that. They feel heard and seen and believed after seeing this film, and that was. The point, you know, to educate some and select soap opera, so we know you're not crazy. We know, you know, we get it and now we're going to share your story through these other stories with people they don't understand. Now one thing I think China was able to convey, which I felt really grateful for, was that the film answers the question that often ask question of victims is why doesn't she just leave? If I were in that position, I would be out the door in two seconds. Well, hold on a minute. That's not so easy to say. You know, it's complicated. It's complex. They have a child together. They've been married for six years or whatever it is. And that's what we wanted this this story to tell. And we've heard from several DV advocates that have said it absolutely does. It tells why doesn't she just leave it? It's not easy. You can't just say you leave just when the abuse starts because it's such a gradual build to it. Right? Hard. Yeah, yeah. Well, I would love to hear from both of you what you want professionals to take away from this film and then what? You want survivors to take away from this film? Well, I think for the professionals who see it, we want them to to be able to at last say that yes. Film media TV can show an accurate depiction of this issue. It seems like most of the time they they show more of the physical. I guess that's better for their Hollywood presentation or whatever it is, but that a film can, but you have to do the research to do it. And I think that we show in this film and in the script that we did the research, we show the authenticity of the science and the research that we know, the things that the strangulation and the child witness and those types of things that we specifically wanted to show and convey in that. So I hope that they're able to see that and that that there is a way to answer that question. Why doesn't she just leave? So perhaps they can even use that in some of their counseling to explain why it's difficult for that. But also, we hope to use the film in a teaching capacity, so we're hoping the professionals will see that ability for the use of the film. Yeah, I'd echo that like all of that exactly, just to be able to use this as an educational tool. I think that would be extremely helpful. And then for survivors, like I said, we we want them to take away for one, you know that we believe you, that we hear you. And for two, we want them to be able to define abuse. Like I said, I didn't even realize until we've, you know, I had a couple of people come and say, I didn't realize this is abuse. I don't know what to call it. I was just unhappy. You know, I didn't know. And so now they're aware, and then we want them to be aware. There are, even if you have no money, you know, there are places that you can go their services if you have money and you just don't know what to do. There is services in most areas that can help you get to a place where you can really thrive in the end. Finally, for me, I just want survivors know there's life after you know that you are able to have a very full, very happy life after abuse. Well, I think it's amazing. I actually have one one where [00:46:50][327.2]
Speaker 1: [00:46:51] I know I'm like this today. I want my questions on the same vein, but I was thinking about it, which is, do you have anything you want people who are choosing violence perpetrators to take away from the film? I don't know if you've had after the screenings, anybody come up to you and say that that was me doing the hurting. So I just don't know because we we we spent a lot of time speaking to survivors experiences and speaking to survivors. And the show is called Part two of Survivor. But we've done episode Drew tried to speak to people are choosing violence as well, who might be listening. So I don't know if you've got anything you've thought about her or seen in the reactions to the film that are in that vein. [00:47:34][43.9]
Speaker 2: [00:47:36] Well, offenders are abusers typically won't come up to us and say anything. They're probably not really happy because they've been exposed to the small manipulations and things like that. You know, they might be there with their partner and their partner is like, Oh, that's what you were doing, you know? But you know, hopefully for those who don't realize that this is what they're doing, because maybe that's the case, maybe like. A very, very small percentage, maybe they're being controlling because this is what they saw growing up and they thought it was OK, but maybe after this film they'll say, Whoa, wait, this is what I'm doing. Oh, wow, and then maybe even. To be very specific, maybe leaders of churches can see this and realize they've kind of been manipulating the scripture, and maybe they need to take a step back or maybe in their counseling, they really need to pay attention to what's going on and don't just say divorce is completely off the table. Yeah. Maybe one from the abuser standpoint. Go back to the abuser classes that China witnessed, and I know from being on the board at our DV agency that what they try to do is take violence off the table. But in the way they do that is to to in a group setting to try to have the abusers see the abuse from the victim's side of things. And I think that's to me. Way, I want this film to be seen by potentially by abusers that all of a sudden they go, Oh, I didn't, I didn't realize that what I was doing was affecting her that way, or maybe a past relationship that they were in and they did that sort of thing. But I'm hoping that that's what it is for business, that they're able to think about a little bit and see that perhaps what they're doing truly is abusive and that it's hurtful to their partner. Is that really what they want to have, that their partner be miserable with them? I thought it was really good, too, that you all showed the impacts to the child in the relationship that the little girl was witnessing. It was frightened as well that the perpetration against her mother was very, very impactful to her. And that really impacts child well-being and child development, and that that responsibility is on the person who's choosing to be violent, not on the person who is the victim of that, who is trying to navigate that and keep that child safe. So I thought that was really, really good. Well, I just have to say we are so happy and grateful that you are doing this work and that you made this movie and then we got to talk to you about it. [00:50:29][172.5]
Speaker 1: [00:50:30] And there will be screening at our screening parts of it at conferences coming up just, you know, for people who are listening, you know? Yeah, when we're recording this, we're about to do our Officer-Involved Domestic Violence Summit Summit, and this is spot on, obviously for that. And then we're talking about future, yes, squared engagements at other conferences, and we're really excited about that opportunity for four hour event. So we're really looking forward to an ongoing partnership with you around this and build to promote the film that we think it's going to do a lot of good for survivors, for professionals and maybe even for people who are choosing violence. So. So we just want to thank you both very much for being guests on the show. [00:51:07][36.8]
Speaker 2: [00:51:08] We're really hoping that the we have a release in the summer, so we can everybody can follow us on social media to find out those dates when we make those announcements. So we're excited about sharing this film widely. [00:51:18][10.7]
Speaker 1: [00:51:20] And if people want to check out and keep up on that, what website or where should they go to keep up on that? [00:51:27][7.2]
Speaker 2: [00:51:28] Well, our website is no ordinary love movie dot com and all of our social media links are there. But if you're only on Twitter, we're in a L movie. If you're on Instagram or Facebook, it is no ordinary love movie. So the whole thing, just like the website. So we will be posting all updates. We have extra, you know, behind the scenes, pictures and interviews and videos and things like that, and we will post as soon as we have a solid date for our release. [00:51:57][28.9]
Speaker 1: [00:51:58] It's so exciting and I imagine you can't wait for that. So we're looking forward to it as well. So we've been talking to China Robertson, writer director and producer of Alternate Love and Trace director, executive producer of Nowhere to Live. So again, thank you very much. [00:52:13][14.7]
Speaker 2: [00:52:14] And we are partnered with the survivors [00:52:16][2.3]
Speaker 1: [00:52:16] are still partner with Survivor. I always feel like at the end sound like we're still the same people. [00:52:20][3.9]
Speaker 2: [00:52:20] We say, you're still partnered with this still partner with Survivor. So if you want to contact us, if you want to look at our trainings and our systems change work, you can go to Safe and together institute dot com [00:52:33][12.6]
Speaker 1: [00:52:34] or you can visit us, our virtual academy, which is Academy Dot safe and the other inside.com. [00:52:38][4.0]
Speaker 2: [00:52:40] And don't forget that I made a discount code for you all if you would like to take any of the trainings. There's also free trainings on that website so that you can become more domestic violence informed in your practice, whatever that practice may be if you're a religious leader, if you're a counselor, if you're an advocate and so that code is partnered all lowercase. All right. [00:53:03][23.8]
Speaker 1: [00:53:04] And we hope you ask us questions, suggest topics and subscribe and share and all the things people do on social media things. Yeah, we're on Twitter, on Facebook, where I don't know where else we are everywhere. We're everywhere. So anyway, [00:53:19][15.4]
Speaker 2: [00:53:20] so I am Ruth. The I just forgot my title. I'm Ruth Stern's Mandel and I am the e-learning and communications manager. [00:53:28][8.4]
Speaker 1: [00:53:29] And I'm David Mendell, the executive director of the Sapir Institute. And we're out and we're out. [00:53:29][0.0]
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