Partnered with a Survivor: David Mandel and Ruth Reymundo Mandel

Season 2 Episode 15: She is Not Your Rehab: A global invitation to men to end abuse of women & children through radical self responsibility & healing

August 24, 2021 Ruth Stearns Mandel & David Mandel Season 2 Episode 15
Partnered with a Survivor: David Mandel and Ruth Reymundo Mandel
Season 2 Episode 15: She is Not Your Rehab: A global invitation to men to end abuse of women & children through radical self responsibility & healing
Show Notes Transcript

For men's violence against women to end,  men need to  talk to other men about change and responsibility. At the same time, many men who are abusive, have often experienced their own traumas at the hands of their parents or society at large.  An emerging voice in the effort to invite men to healing  is Matt Brown,  co-creator with his wife, Sarah Brown  of the "She is  Not Your Rehab" global movement. 

Matt believes that because so many boys & men are traumatized & wounded in relationship with parents/caretakers, taking radical self ownership of their own healing journey, their own behaviors is the best way to heal that trauma. This  self ownership never excuses abuse even when it recognizes the trauma & learned behaviors of abuse which can be an attempt to protect from pain & fear by inflicting pain & trying to control others.

In this conversation with Ruth  and David, Matt a barber, speaker and author of the best-selling book "She is Not Your Rehab," talks about how he translated his own healing journey into a message of  personal responsibility, behaviour change and healing for men so they may step more deeply into connected, healthy, nourishing relationships which do not continue the cycle of violence.

Read the 7 Principles of the "She is Not Your Rehab" global movement
 1. She is not responsible for your emotional rehabilitation.

2. Your healing is your responsibility and yours to take initiative for and manage. 

3. Any healing needed for you, cannot come at the expense of her healing, health and wellbeing. (David & Ruth's personal favorite!) 

4. She can support you but she can never do more for you than you are prepared to do for yourself. 

5. Regardless of what anyone has done TO YOU, it is now time FOR YOU to take ownership of your own life and be committed to living it wholeheartedly enough to do any work needed. Your childhood trauma wasn’t your fault but your healing IS now your responsibility. 

6. True change comes from genuine growth. Growth happens once we heal. Healing starts when we begin to FEEL our pain. 

7. Hurt people inevitably hurt people because what we will not transform, we transmit on those around us and healed people do indeed heal people. The question is WILL YOU have the courage to heal?

Order the book "She is Not Your Rehab"

The barbershop where men go to heal | Matt Brown | TEDxChristchurch

Other related podcasts
Season 2 Episode 11: “We need a revolution:” Integration of trauma healing and behavior change for people who choose violence

Season 2 Episode 6: The Male Victim

Season 2, Episode 1: 6 Steps to Partnering with Survivors

Episode 21: Listening to the Voices of Children and Young People Harmed by Fathers Who Cho

Now available! Mapping the Perpetrator’s Pattern: A Practitioner’s Tool for Improving Assessment, Intervention, and Outcomes The web-based Perpetrator Pattern Mapping Tool is a virtual practice tool for improving assessment, intervention, and outcomes through a perpetrator pattern-based approach. The tool allows practitioners to apply the Model’s critical concepts and principles to their current case load in real

Speaker 1: [00:00:15] And we're back and we're back. Not as long of a period of time as between the other podcasts.  [00:00:20][5.3]

Speaker 2: [00:00:21] No, this is true. So if you're if you're joining us for the first time, I hope you're not. This is partner with Survivor. And I'm David Mendell, the executive director of the And Together Institute.  [00:00:34][12.9]

Speaker 1: [00:00:35] And I researched Stern's Mandel and I am the e-learning, communications and strategic relationship manager. There's just a lot of titles in there. And this is partnered with the survivor.  [00:00:45][10.6]

Speaker 2: [00:00:46] That's right. And this is a podcast that was your idea with this idea, and it was really about bringing our initially is our bringing our conversations, your mind about your experiences, survivor and my experience a professional in the field. Yeah, that we would talk to each other all the time. Yeah, I we debate and debate and discuss  [00:01:06][20.0]

Speaker 1: [00:01:06] and I'd say, but what about this and why?  [00:01:08][1.9]

Speaker 2: [00:01:09] That's right. And as you say, you're playing the cranky survivor. So how are you going to help me? How are you going to help people like me? I don't care about your systems and what they need. I care about getting help. And so out of that came this podcast. Yeah. And we've done a bunch of shows that are about us and us talking and a lot of interviews that have been really wonderful and explore a lot of ideas. And today I am very excited and we've got a guest that we're going to introduce in a minute. Matt Brown, who is behind she is not your rehab, the global movement. And so I'm really very excited about that.  [00:01:50][41.5]

Speaker 1: [00:01:51] And you, you you came into awareness about that through his TED talk and you had worked with men behavior change and you were just very moved by the principles of those shoes, not your rehab movement. And just by his work and his commitment with men.  [00:02:13][21.9]

Speaker 2: [00:02:14] Yeah. And and and we're going to talk to Matt. We're talking about him right now, but about his spirit. And I can feel it through the TED talk and through the video. And so then we I reached out to Matt and then we went to Christchurch and met him and Sarah and Sarah. I had lunch with them and got, She is not your rehab T-shirts and you have take a picture of those all over the world and. And then Matt spoke in our Asia Pacific Conference.  [00:02:46][31.2]

Speaker 1: [00:02:46] Yes. And so I wanted to say, have you introduced Snap? But I also want to read the seven principles of the She's not your rehab movement. So why don't you introduce that? Yeah. And then we'll do that.  [00:03:02][15.5]

Speaker 2: [00:03:02] Yeah, we'll do so. So part of the, you know, we want to have this conversation for a while. But Matt has written a book along with Sarah, which is called She is not in Rehab. And So we're going to talk a lot about the book and and we're going to talk about how you can get it and what's in it. But it's part memoir. It's part self-help for men who've grown up with violence and are repeating or maybe repeating the Spanish adult, and it's in social media. I've described this book as a love song and that, you know, I hope that, you know, that resonated with you because it's a love song. It feels like to your mom, to Sarah, to men who are in pain and causing pain and ultimately to yourselves and again. So, so all that background I say I walk. Welcome Matt Brown to the show. So, Matt, thanks for joining us.  [00:03:55][52.8]

Speaker 3: [00:03:56] I'll offer thank you for having me.  [00:03:57][1.2]

Speaker 1: [00:03:59] Yeah, we are so happy. And actually, maybe you should read the seven principles since you are the you and Sarah, we're the people who came up with them.  [00:04:07][8.2]

Speaker 2: [00:04:07] Well, let's let's let's actually why don't we start with just, you know, Matt, you normally tell your story, but I want to start with the book if that's OK, because the book is why we waited to do this. The book is is wonderful. I'm about two thirds like from Scotia. I haven't finished it. I'm about two thirds of the way through it and and have been eating it up. And can you just start with the phrase she is not your rehab? What does it mean? You know, where's it come from? And what's the response you've gotten for just that phrase, let alone the entire book?  [00:04:45][38.5]

Speaker 3: [00:04:48] I'm obviously the name, the phrase she is not your rehab stems from my childhood, my upbringing, upbringing of witnessing my beloved mother being a rehab rehabilitation center for my father. Countless times I'm here in New Zealand. I'll say it all. We have an organization called Women's Refuge that takes in woman if they're being abused or going for domestic violence. And by the age of 10, I had lived in every woman's refuge home and my city. And so, you know, we would go there, obviously, and mum would always take my father back and I always ask you the question, you know why? Why do you keep going back to him? You know he's going to kill you eventually? And my mom believe it, she if she could just love them more, if she could just do more, if she could just be better for him, that he would change. And there was not all that was not the end of the story for us. There wasn't a happy ending. And so now a grown man with three children and a beautiful wife and a businessman, a barber by trade. And I've had the honor and privilege of talking to me and for countless hours over the last decade about family violence and about their own childhood trauma and their pain, and just how we just how we project a lot of this stuff onto our children and our woman. And I just thought enough was enough. And so my wife and I came up this concept sitting in our lounge, just talking about my mum's story and. My wife suggested that, you know, she's not your rehab, and in the quote, that phrase is stuck in Iran, and here we need to stop using our woman as rehabilitation centers. We need to take ownership of our own stuff, our own pain, our childhood trauma and stop transmitting it.  [00:06:35][106.9]

Speaker 1: [00:06:37] That's that's going to be such an amazing place if we all did that, obviously, because we all do. And yes, it was a it was a really powerful book to read because David's not professional, but I'm the survivor. So reading it from my perspective, as you were speaking to men, there was a lot of times I cheered. And then to be honest, there was a lot of times my cranky survivor got a little activated by a couple of things, and I'll tell you what they were alleged to know as we go on. But I I saw that the depth of your commitment to to true self owning. Which if we want to heal and we want to live in healthy relationships is what we need to do.  [00:07:29][52.3]

Speaker 3: [00:07:30] Thank you.  [00:07:31][0.3]

Speaker 1: [00:07:31] It's beautiful.  [00:07:31][0.2]

Speaker 2: [00:07:32] Yeah. And I love the message that men shouldn't expect women to fix them. You know, and take care of them in a way. Part of your message is men shouldn't expect women to take care of themselves more than the men going to take care of themselves, their responsibility for themselves.  [00:08:00][27.5]

Speaker 3: [00:08:01] It's not fair for us to expect woman to look after and deal with our problems when women have their own stuff that they have to deal with on a daily. And the concept came from what it comes from real lived experience. You know, obviously having my mother, my mother who experienced violence on a daily but then being married and being committed in a healthy relationship, my wife, Sarah Sarah, has chosen not to be my rehab. And she had clear boundaries from the get go of our friendship or our relationship. We need to go get help for your addictions, with your pain and the trauma. I can support you. I could cheer you on and be there for you. But ultimately, you need to do the work. That's not my job. And so I, I, I give credit to both of the strongest woman that I've ever had the privilege of having in my life and this my mother in my life.  [00:08:54][53.1]

Speaker 2: [00:08:55] And that's so clear in the book, I have to say that I would read it in the morning. You know, a lot of mornings I've been reading it first thing when everybody else is still asleep and I could hear your love for your mom, ever, Sarah, just crystal clear coming through so many of the pages of the book and so many of the stories and just the overall message it was, it was so lovely. Also to hear you say, you know that to really look at, you shouldn't expect somebody to do harm to themselves, to help you. You know, you shouldn't expect somebody to to debase themselves, to help. You shouldn't expect somebody to damage themselves, to help you and be there for diminish themselves or damage themselves. And this is part of sadly, what? I see so little love. I don't know how to say. It's painful. Is that you? Strike that that message of I I care for man, I care for men's pain, I care for the way they've been traumatized, I care for the way they've been hurt. You speak about hurt little boys inside grown men. And I also understand how they've been. Talk to act certain ways, and you really are compassionate towards your daddy and about is is, you know, immigration and the pressure of family and kids and coming to a culture that may not treated him well. And and all those things but  [00:10:34][99.0]

Speaker 1: [00:10:35] never use it as an excuse for for violence.  [00:10:37][2.3]

Speaker 2: [00:10:37] That's why you're so, you're so clear.  [00:10:39][1.9]

Speaker 1: [00:10:40] It's yeah, it's not a pity party. Yeah.  [00:10:42][1.8]

Speaker 2: [00:10:43] And it was that was that. Can you speak to that? Because that, to me, is one of the main messages of the book I care about, man. I want my brothers to heal, but not at the expense of their their wives. They're there.  [00:10:56][12.5]

Speaker 3: [00:10:56] Yeah, you are. The heart of the book was was. I wanted to write, I wanted to write the young version of me this book. You know, this is the book that I wish to. I read in my early stages of healing, of choosing to do the work. I had to obviously figure this out myself and not I wouldn't say figure out myself. I had the proper my chair at my corner surround myself with good therapists and good social workers who gave me good advice and directed me in the right direction. But I wanted to be wanted to write a book that was an invitation to a roadmap to healing, you know, inviting men. This is what it looks like doing the work, and it's having had uncomfortable conversations with your friends, but many with yourself. And so, you know, hurt people. The old saying, hurt people hurt people. And this is the truth. You know, many people who perpetrate violence who, you know, have have caused harm on other people. They were once upon a time of the, you know, most of the time they were, once upon a time, a victim. And so I had to do that journey for myself and understand why I ask these questions. You know, why will be getting abuse? Why the take their back all the time? You know, why did they have an alcohol addiction? And the more I try to answer these questions in research and my discovery, I found that they made their habit a lot of pain and trauma themselves. And so he never really did the work. And so that was the just transmit it also onto us. And as has there was  [00:12:30][93.8]

Speaker 1: [00:12:31] a lot of books that deal with men who become domestically violent or coercive, controlling because they were abused or witnessed abuse in childhood. Focus on the psychological aspects of that. You really went through this with an eye towards radical self owning. And drawing boundaries around what your partner is and what's yours. And so I actually want to read off the chapter headings because I think it's super important that people see that all of this is about saying she's not your, but you're responsible for this. So she is not your rehab. She's not your mother, she's not your absent father. She's not your shame. She's not your trauma, she's not your savior. She's not your ex. She's not auditioning for you. She's not your porn star. She's not your prison. She's not your lifeline. She's not your hired help. She's not your punching bag. She's not yours to control. She's not your doormat. She's not your competition. She's not your bank account. She's not your quick fix. She's not your trophy. She's not your grief. She's not your excuse. And then it ends with an invitation to heal. And. You know, I've seen books which have talked about men's impulses to control or abuse. And so many times that it pathologize is that process, and it's not super clear about you may have these feelings, but that never gives you an excuse to not own yourself and your own behaviors. And I felt like this book consistently did that, even if it could give a sense of compassion to people for what they had experienced. And I know as a survivor that being with a partner who has not judged my experience of abuse and not told me that I am therefore damaged where a bad person because I experienced it but deeply knows his own, his own obligations and his own territory. And then I deeply know mine that because we can meet each other in that space where we are committed to those boundaries that we really love and we really trust each other. And it feels sad to me that people miss out on this experience and they don't get to experience that.  [00:15:16][164.4]

Speaker 3: [00:15:18] Well, you guys are beautiful. Can you guys write us a book  [00:15:19][1.8]

Speaker 1: [00:15:22] that was totally unintentional emotional. But I really I really sort of beautiful. I really felt it in your book, you know, and there was a couple of things that maybe a little spicy and a little spicy that way. You know, like I, I looked at the chapter where you talked about forgiveness and as a survivor who grew up in a very religious context. Forgiveness was used as a way to tell me to shut up and to have continue to have contact with people who never named what they did, who never claimed to harm that it caused me and who never changed their behaviors. And so it felt like a manipulation, you know? So, you know, there is a little space now, me when you were like, forgiveness is for you because I've always been taught by words that forgiveness is for me, but it's actually for other people. It's to protect them from their sense of shame and guilt for the behaviors that they chose. Yes. So that's my little area of spiciness there.  [00:16:28][65.8]

Speaker 2: [00:16:29] Can I ask Mack to ask you because to speak about that with your dad? Because the first time I heard you tell this story, maybe it was on the telex, maybe it was afterwards about that. Your first customer, you're at your barber shop when you opened up a proper barber shop away from partizanship. The agency that I went to visit, you did so because you said, sounds very cool. But but you know, you opened up, you know, on a street someplace not in your backyard barbershop that your dad was your first car. And and when I heard that story, the first time I assumed because I know stories of alcoholic violent dads who stopped drinking and changed, you really became the best or better version of the best version of myself. So I assume that that's what happened. But when I read the book? I had heard I read that that wasn't true, but you do you, you know, to Ruth's point. You, you you were able to. You needed to practice forgiveness, it sounds like for yourself. So can you talk about that a little bit?  [00:17:33][64.0]

Speaker 3: [00:17:34] Yeah. When we opened our flagship barbershop here in the city that I was Ireland, I invited my father and I wanted to see. And most people, you know, when they open up a shop, they open up a ribbon or they cut a cake or something. I wanted to cut my dad's here. And so I invited him and my my baby brought one of my baby brothers. He he I trusted him. I left in the job that your job was brain dead. And so dad didn't want to come. My dad didn't want to come to the opening. My dad's quite an introvert, which is kind of, where are you from? So he doesn't like being around a lot of people and so has a way to deal with it is to drink some booze. And so he got drunk, got wasted. And then my brother, you know, there some again, that you need to come the Mets opening. But I think for you, it's not opening without you. And you know, he he tried to not comedy my brother literally forced them to come and stay. He came and he came and he was toasted. And the thing is because my dad's a, you know, an alcoholic. He everyone thought he was normal. But I could smell it off him. You could just see it in his face. And while I cut his hair, he said the narcotic and he just like he was staring at everyone, like just a weird, like giving everyone the evils. But while I was kind of him, I had written a speech for him and talked about our upbringing. But I didn't want to humiliate him or say anything that he'd done to us. That was bad, but I just wanted to tell him that I forgave him. And you know, it's his shoulders, my shoulders while standing today doing this work, working with men in the barbershop. And so forth for my journey of forgiveness. It was a net moment I realized, man. I have to forgive for me because if I harbor the bitterness or, you know, you showed up to my opening stall drunk, you know, you're still the same man that I've grown up. I've always known that, but in this sort of just habits that would bother me. I mean, eventually, I just know and I've seen it, I've seen it play out, and many conversations with clients are much higher of my boys in the neighborhood. I've seen that bitterness manifests itself and obviously transmit onto our women and our children in different ways or manifests itself in addictions. And so I choose daily to forgive my father because these things every day that I can't help, they will trigger me or something will come up in a conversation refrain, I'll be watching a movie and memories will just happen to pop up. I have to choose daily to forgive my father because I don't want to transmit it to my children.  [00:20:06][152.6]

Speaker 1: [00:20:08] And it's it's interesting because you talk about it from the place of. Letting go and and then parenting yourself, you know, you know, for me, I guess I think of it less as forgiveness than letting go of the expectation that a parent who can't. Fulfill that. Hole that was created, I can't go back and be a child again, but I can nurture my own self as a parent, I can go back and do that to my own self, and there's a place that you can lock down and where you say, Well, that's unfair. Well, that sucks that they did that. You know, what kind of parent does that and do that to my kids? But you know it is. It is a daily thing where it's like, Oh, well, there's a place where I obviously need to parent myself and let go of the expectation that somebody who has never shown that they have the ability to step into that role is going to step into the role now, you know? So, you know, I get that different, different words, but same interesting energy.  [00:21:28][80.4]

Speaker 3: [00:21:29] Yeah. Like, I feel like the whole book for us, like all those chapters you read out was just us trying to humanize how we actually do project a lot of that stuff onto our partners. And so like when I think of the mother, one that all of us men have a mum, this will be came from, you know, she is not. Your mother is an example in there. You know, I listed in the book about me, me and Sarah got me and my wife got into a little heated argument and then I blurted out, Oh, you just remind me of my mother, you know? And if I knew what was good for me, I've never repeated that line ever again. But that's when I realized that mainly having to do the work looks like, why did it come out of my mouth? You know, obviously, I've experienced the first woman that I experienced in my life with my mom, and she was a survivor. She put out so much shit and abuse. I've been for, you know, my wife or mother. This woman that I love has the same capacity or she should put up with it, as well as to what I'm doing. What I'm predicting is nothing compared to what my mother went through.  [00:22:32][62.6]

Speaker 1: [00:22:32] Mm hmm.  [00:22:33][0.1]

Speaker 3: [00:22:33] And so that's when I realized like, she is not my mother.  [00:22:36][2.7]

Speaker 1: [00:22:37] Right, right. Yeah, it's interesting because it's almost like this sliding scale where you're like, Oh, yeah, that's nothing. Come on. Why are you so offended by that? I totally get it. And it's it really is. Bizarre to me, because if we really, truly value relationships and we value that commitment, if our partner looks at us and says what you're doing or what you're saying is harming my ability to be connected to you and trust you, and we want to live in that relationship and we want to be with that person, then it's crazy to to to ignore that. It's crazy to expect that that person would put up with that type of behavior and feel like they need to stay in that place in a really malnourished way. But we we kind of suspend reality and we think that people have to do that for us. You know? That's that's a it's and I think too deeply because we're so desperate and wounded for that connection. Like you say in your book, where in order to be loved, in order to be connected, you have to be vulnerable, vulnerable enough to be seen. And that is very scary. Yeah, yeah. Especially when you come from a lot of abuse, because because you've been told, as you say in your book, that you are not valuable. You've been shamed. You've been to means, you know, you expect that from other human beings. So it's hard.  [00:24:19][101.5]

Speaker 2: [00:24:20] Yeah, I was really struck. You talk about being vulnerable. I really was touched by your vulnerability that was in those storytelling you cared about, particular about the sexual abuse and and your experience as a kid about being shamed or being humiliated and being, you know, you didn't you didn't pull any punches. You know, you you you really were so direct. And I just really appreciate the honesty of those passages, particularly because you're doing it. I don't know what your experience of it feels like. You're doing it in service, you're doing it out of love. You know, you're not doing it to shock people. You're not doing it to say, poor me, but you're right. I mean, I'd love to hear from you about that, about that willingness to really because you do this also when you speak. But just there, parts of the book that are very raw and you're pretty honest and direct about them.  [00:25:27][66.9]

Speaker 3: [00:25:28] Yeah, look, it's never I mean, vulnerability is just one of those things that just sits in the very gloomy since all of our beings and, you know, your stomach shakes, rumbles, trails all of it. And why didn't I spoke? I knew I knew this book was an arena for me entering this arena where you're talking about family violence, you're exposing your childhood trauma to the world. For anyone to have an opinion was was was scary as hell. But I've always said to myself, Who am I to do this? Work with the men that sit in my barber chair of the men? They come to our group sessions with the men in prison with whoever I'm speaking in front of. If I can't do this, work myself. And so I've always I always believe as indigenous species, the indigenous people of the Pacific that I know of. We've always healed through storytelling through stories. And so me putting myself out there in the arena for everyone to comment or have an opinion was part of what doing the work, showing people what the work actually looks like.  [00:26:34][65.8]

Speaker 2: [00:26:36] I love it. I really do in that language in the arena. I'm sure it captures something about the the that's not easy and it's hard. And it's. It takes a lot of courage. Can you can you give you refer to this as a global movement and it shows up in lots of ways your barbershop. You know, you go and speak to men wherever they are. It sounds like prisons out of places. Can you give people listening a feel for how this all shows up in your barbershops and people to know, not just to barbershop, to right down to barbershops, to some folks and a bunch of chairs and each one I'm assuming with the, you know, can you can you give people a sense of of how because this is not like something that's just written down a piece of paper. You go to work and you cut hair and you have conversations with men. So I'm thinking people may have trouble imagining that. Can you walk us through that?  [00:27:40][63.8]

Speaker 3: [00:27:42] So, you know, for me, I mean, if you go on, if you go into any bob hair salon, you're going to hear a conversation. And so for me, I've always seen the conversation in the barbershop as the most sacred tool and the fact that the barber has, you know, let alone, giving a dope faith and a good haircut. The conversation is always the most 80 per cent is the reason why men will come back to their barbershop. 20 per cent will come back for Kihika, 80 per cent of people will come back because they had a good conversation with their barber. And so I've just tried to utilize that used barber as a vehicle to have these hard conversations. And so back in 2019, my wife and I, we were approached by the government because they had seen our work, obviously being a success in the neighborhoods that we grew up with, that they couldn't really have region. But all these men were the men that we were working with where they stopped. They stopped re-offending. They were now more prison will be their wives and their children and their children's lives. And so for us to get this reach out there, we we came up with an idea that we wanted to run what we call a one in, which is kind of like a conference. But the more indigenous space where no one is, no one has learned, not there's not one person that's in charge not one person can learn from. You don't learn from the the the building from. We all sleep together on a flat on the floor. We learn from each other. We learn from the food. We learn from the FINMA, from the land, from everything, from serving each other. And so we gave that one hundred and fifty Bibles around the whole country came to the toey and we split it up into three different conferences. And so each conference had about 50 barbers and we just wanted to educate barbers. Yes, we gave them to gave them some lessons on cutting hair, but the whole thing was doing the work. What does the work look like? Because the reality is, not many people can, especially here. Not many people can afford counseling or therapy. And then and now, City, you're about three months away, is about a three month wait for any man to see a therapist. That's how our health system is struggling. And so our voices, we're not professionals and the counseling arena, but we're at what the next step where as good as it's going to get for these men who come in for a haircut. And so we just want to educate barbers how to have these conversations, who these men can reach out to professional wise if they are struggling with suicide or having, you know, thoughts about abusing their partners. And so those from their conversation that, you know, but we end these conferences, we we encourage me to do the work and so are very and we did a do an activity what I call the circle of courage and I invite the men to, you know, we open up a question. You know, if you've ever been embarrassed deep into the circle, if you've ever been, you know, shame to into the shampoo and one of the questions I asked, I asked if if you've ever been sexually abused, step into the circle. And out of these 50 barbers, 47 barbers tipped in a circle. Instead, when we say one in every three women are abused, that these statistics are relevant and I've always wanted to talk about it, you know this the statistics that we do know all about, all the unheard and unspoken stuff that we don't know if it's happening in our backyards. And so I looked around at all these men and all of us were just standing there crying, and these men realized that they weren't alone in their pain and the shame. And so it was the first step to healing. And so these barbers have now carried their crop up, but they're not on the same conference, but they've taken it into the barbershops and hopes and now holding space for for many men who have hit unspoken trauma but are now speaking up and now getting the proper help, it's available to them. And so it's just been a domino effect, in a sense, really from there.  [00:31:33][231.7]

Speaker 1: [00:31:34] It's amazing because trauma is our most common human experience. We all share a certain amount of trauma and we're all locked away in our little corners in silence, thinking we're the only ones who have experienced it. And being able to be in a space like that where you realize that you're not alone is incredibly important for the for healing and for stopping past that shame, too. That is intentionally instilled in you to keep you silent so that that person who abuses you doesn't have to pay the consequences for what they've done. So that's that's beautiful.  [00:32:17][42.6]

Speaker 2: [00:32:18] And it's it is. It's it's I mean, I want to see replicated all over the world. So I know, I know. I like the global movement part of it. So do men at this point when they come to your barbershop? Oh, and I realize the story that that that underlines your point. I had a barber I saw for about 10 years gave me the best shot I ever had. But he got more politically conservative over those 10 years in a way that just really made me feel really uncomfortable. And so I stopped seeing him because of the lack, because that lack of connection that you're you're you're you. I'm just thinking about that. And and it was I walked away from a guy who gave me a great cut because  [00:33:06][47.7]

Speaker 1: [00:33:07] we used to call him the drunken barber. So he might have had multiple issues,  [00:33:10][2.8]

Speaker 2: [00:33:10] may have had multiple issues to be like starting at two o'clock in the afternoon because I think he liked having his mornings free to recover from the night before, you know? So, but but I just don't do men now come in knowing, do they seek you out? Like, Are they coming? And they sit down the chair and say, Man, let me tell you it's like, is it? Is it different now than when you started where it was kind of. And you tell that story about that, that young guy who came for cut that, that he he was his plan to kill himself. And it, you know, it's you want to do it. You want to look good for his funeral and just so painful. But I mentioned at the beginning that you were you might have been pulling this out of guys more. But now two guys come and sit down and be like, they start talking right away. Or is it still hard?  [00:34:02][52.6]

Speaker 3: [00:34:04] I know they are both. I know, I know. Mean have booked with me. They know. You know, they want to come and have the conversation. And some guys will just blurt out their life story straight away and other guys will take time. You know, they they will, would you say? They kind of. It's almost like. Seeing or trailing me, seeing if I if I am this compassion or empathetic person that I've now been perceived to be on social media and all that. And so but to be honest, I don't really get many new people because of my clients. I was just I have my regulars now. So but what I do every every Wednesday at our barbershop, we hold a meeting. We've been the barbers, being my barbers, and we just have hard conversations. If the boys are struggling with their mental health hassle, I get speakers and we just can't have conversations. It's the same thing. You know, who are we to do this work of the men in our chins if we don't do this with ourselves? But yet, every day, every day, if I'm in the barbershop, these are guys. Most guys, all my clients are just tease me and they say, You know, we're not coming freak. I will come and see, you know, you're not the biggest father he ever come to you for compensation.  [00:35:12][67.9]

Speaker 1: [00:35:13] That's funny.  [00:35:14][0.6]

Speaker 2: [00:35:15] That's a great way to  [00:35:16][1.1]

Speaker 3: [00:35:16] hit my pride.  [00:35:17][0.3]

Speaker 2: [00:35:18] You know, it's great to be teased in a way that that that that's about love and about appreciation and respect, right? It's, you know, I'm thinking about professionals and I do a lot of training over the years and different modalities. But one of the biggest ones was they said, you can. You can only take your clients as far as you've gone yourself personally. You know, so there's a big emphasis on and the training went through four years on my my personal healing, my personal growth. A lot of a lot of that training resonated with the inner child stuff that you know, you really spoke about and the parenting. And but I think sadly and I'm going to speak about, I often on this podcast, this speak about mental health and other professionals, that that's not what everybody gets trained it. It's not the way everybody gets trained to be sort of in in it themselves, own it themselves and understand that they're wounded and they need to heal themselves. And their healing is part of their ability to heal other people or be with them.  [00:36:27][68.8]

Speaker 1: [00:36:27] Yeah. And a lot of professionals, particularly here in the United States, are the experts and the person who's coming to them for help is, you know, the broken  [00:36:39][12.1]

Speaker 2: [00:36:40] person  [00:36:40][0.0]

Speaker 1: [00:36:40] there in person pleading for their bits of knowledge, you know, and it is much more of a connected healing journey when when you can talk about the places where you both experienced things that are similar and then talk about how you been able to take ownership of yourself again or take ownership of your your own space, your own responsibility for how, like you said about your kids, how they experience you as a father. And I thought that that bit was really beautiful where you said that the most important thing to you was how your children experience you as a father and as a parent and as a partner to to Sarah. And and it's amazing because so much of what we've been taught is that, you know, men and discipline they're supposed to be, you know, physically violent and they're supposed to instill fear in you for compliance. And that idea that really you're trying to imprint your children with the image of a connected, loving father so that they have that as stable ground in their own lives is just so beautiful. It is. It is so beautiful, you know?  [00:38:18][97.4]

Speaker 3: [00:38:19] Yeah, you're sorry about that. I think not just over the like. Even here you get the same thing the professionals are speaking from, you know, up here and then the people who are actually experiencing the trauma and the pain, there's just no connection there. And I think. We need training, and I think our school systems need to have a whole subject just on compassion and empathy. We need to teach kids from a young age what compassion empathy looks like, and it's just not for me personally, empathy, as the one seen as one of the one single most handled things that have changed my life. And so when I walk into any space like prison and I've said of the the worst suicide, you know, the worst home society deems as the worst murderers, you know, abusers. And I just empathize with these men. And once they realize that I'm empathetic empathy of seeing them, you know, someone talk to me like a human being. Someone saw me, someone hurt me. That's when the human they face, when they're humanize, and then they can start their journey of healing. I honestly believe my whole heart people need to teach what it's like, what it looks like to be empathetic.  [00:39:32][72.9]

Speaker 1: [00:39:32] Right? I think the fear is, is that empathy is going to open the doorway to excuses for behaviors. It's going to justify things that harm other people. And I think we've we've equated empathy with weakness instead of empathy with being incredibly strong because we know that what love we give somebody is free, but it doesn't mean that they can harm us. It doesn't mean they have the right to control us or own us, but that we can look at them and say, I see your value. You know, as a human, I see the story that you've come through, and I can really feel that you should not have been treated that way and you deserved to be loved and nurtured and your choices are yours. And it's time for you to make some decisions about how you're going to move forward. And that came through the whole book. Yeah, every time you enter the chapter, you said, Are you ready to open yourself? Are you ready to open your actions? Are you ready to start your own healing? It was always very clear that this is about that, that choice that we make that men make in particular.  [00:40:48][76.1]

Speaker 2: [00:40:49] So can we can we talk about your adoptive white mother for a second? This is, you know, this is Rene Brown, Rene Brown. This is the moment I think you're talking about empathy, compassion and vulnerability. Can you tell us about Rene Brown?  [00:41:03][13.3]

Speaker 1: [00:41:03] You can't see it, but Matt just lit up.  [00:41:05][1.8]

Speaker 3: [00:41:05] Yeah, he did the same last name, guys. Yeah. You know, I just went up when I came across with Tito. I remember who I think was my wife's hair might have put her onto me those few years, a couple of years ago, when I came across it as a vulnerability and shame, he had talked about these topics. And then when I heard her, he just I just cried. I had never heard anyone talk about vulnerability in that context. And for me, it was also like a it was almost like a sign of approval or the big step, like what I've been doing, the work that I've been doing, putting myself out there and telling my story because I've been talking about sexual abuse, me being sexually abused by, you know, beating the shit out of shame added since I left home at the age of 15. And so to then hear another woman across the world talk about, you know, showing up for yourself, entering the arena and the most. And you know, the most important section in the arena is the support section. If you have no one supporting you, which I'm lucky and blessed that I had my wife. But in the time when I heard it, I just felt I have to shop for myself and support system. I have to shop for myself and be compassionate and empathetic and her, her focal, her, her knowledge and wisdom just blew my mind. For a boy that just grew up in a culture that patriarchal system where men don't quite mean at the heart and not get over it. Be a man man up and know who. Yeah, who her teachings, her research have him totally helped me change the flipped the script in dealing with the cultural norms here that we have here, not at all here in New Zealand. And yeah, you get the pushback from people. But I, yeah, I totally admire and adore Bernard Brown for her research, and I work.  [00:42:56][110.8]

Speaker 2: [00:42:58] I love. I love that part of it. Are you there for it and you met her, right? You've met her in person now, or you never met her debut, communicated with her?  [00:43:05][7.9]

Speaker 3: [00:43:06] No, I know. I know friends. I'm working through. I have a close friend, Kyla, who I mentioned in the book, who helped me with my Marty talk, who worked with Britney Brown, but I've never met her.  [00:43:17][11.4]

Speaker 1: [00:43:18] So I have to help you to connect at some point is  [00:43:21][3.1]

Speaker 3: [00:43:22] probably also, guys.  [00:43:22][0.6]

Speaker 1: [00:43:23] That's great. It's great. You know, one of the the chapters that I thought was really good was on coercive control, which, you know, you started that chapter. You're OK with. You're not you're not in control of her or she's not yours to control. And this this particular little paragraph was really striking to me if you're not in a reciprocal relationship of mutual trust and respect. We're both partners feel they are freely able to leave without threat to their safety and well-being, then it's not a relationship. One of you is a prisoner and the other is their jailer. And that, you know, none of us were brought up with the notion that. We were free to leave. Relationships were supposed to be for ever. You were so upset with Cement's. That's right. You know, and so the notion that in order for us to truly love each other, it means that we have to fold each other's freedom in our space and love and respect that freedom is very, very scary for a lot of people. And you talk about the fear of that. You talk about the the fear of losing control and growing up in chaos. One of the impulses is to try to control people and with coercive control, men tend to do it more in a really overt way. You know, women can also coercive control, and it can be similar to what it looks like with men, but it can also be very sort of subtle and emotional. So I just I wanted you to talk a little bit about that concept of mutual freedom, which I think people will be very scared to hear and to step into that the person they love is free to leave without being punished for it.  [00:45:39][136.1]

Speaker 3: [00:45:41] Hmm. It's such a big topic. I mean, you yeah, coercive control such a hard topic to tackle because so many, I mean, so many men that I know, we just don't realize that we're doing it. And it's so embedded in our culture, especially blowing up religious like I was growing up religious and religious contexts where men were the breadwinners. Men had the last say woman had to serve. That was now Samoan culture. When you have a woman came into a household, they had to wear a label, other cover themselves with a skirt. And even if they were all covered up, I swear to wear the same old skirt because it was culturally rude and appropriate. But those things are there. And so being married to my wife, who is strong, very, very strong, opinionated and has her own dreams and aspirations. I had to come to the conclusion if I really love this woman. She wasn't mine to hold, she was she was she was she was hers to gift to me, and I have to set Wolf the truth that she has gifted her sesame, you know? Not that I've taken her. I've won her or she's mine own and you know, my property, but she is actually gifted me herself her time, her love of her wisdom, compassion, all of that stuff. And she has every right, every month what we say, every manner to choose not to. And so I have to be immense. The true for anyone really can just walk at a door. These are so many things that hold us back from, not for from not doing so, but, you know, push to get to the limit. Some people will walk. And so I think, do we want to get to this stage where our partners are pushed to the limit and being your level of shame and the guilt of causing that? Or do we want to love our partner to the best so they flourish because of all of the experiences every time I've allowed my wife to? To live in her full element of who she really is at work for both of us. When she once I won, when I when she wins. And so the more I've tried to hold on to Sarah and even relationships I've seen, most clients are much higher. The more I see it fall apart, right?  [00:47:59][138.3]

Speaker 1: [00:48:00] Yeah. That desire to control.  [00:48:01][1.0]

Speaker 2: [00:48:01] So I would go a little a little deeper for a second. Just listening to you talk makes me wonder about, you know, you're not the first guy who came from a background like you did, you know and made a strong woman, you know? But some guys respond to that by saying, I'm not going to let her be me or win over me, and I'm going to. I'm going to push you down. I'm not going to make her make us allow her to make me look like a punk. You know, that's their that's their that's their thinking. But that's not the past. You ended up choosing. And so do you. You know, I'm sure you look around sometimes. So the guys and and go, that could be me, right? That could be me, a guy who's being abusive. Do you ever wonder, ever wonder what? Or how do you understand how you ended up on this path versus that other path was super clear to you?  [00:49:02][60.6]

Speaker 3: [00:49:04] I just felt I just didn't. It's the same thing because when people ask me, How do you forgive your father who you know that all this violence, the evil as I have seen any experience of what? A. What it is to remain a victim of, you know, of the abuse. And so I've seen the same thing with men, brothers and siblings and cousins who do control their partners. And it just they may think it looks like that they, you know, she's, you know, making him look like a punk how you see it or whatever. But you actually look like the punk when you are controlling it and just, you know, controlling everything about her. I don't know if I was just been able to see that and. It's not a call, it's not a nice thing to see when someone's controlling the other person. But the thing is, it's so cool, though, I mean, not so easy for us to see that when when we say a woman is controlling, you know, she sees, you know, he's not allowed to go out of the boys and you know, she's done with the braid. What? And then as boys have a comment on on that and make her feel sad and feel bad for. For holding the reins, you know, so I don't fall into the excuse that maintenance can't really see that, you know, they can't see it because when the woman does it, they can see it clearly and they blame her and observe about it. So yeah,  [00:50:29][85.8]

Speaker 1: [00:50:30] yeah, I think it's so funny because throughout so many of the chapters you're like, If you tell me that you can't see this, you're lying to yourself straight up. Like, you just say, No man, don't tell me you can't see this because you actually can. And so much of so much of the the conversation is you've been allowed to behave this way. People have enabled you to behave this way. You've been told that you're entitled to behave this way and that she's supposed to fill all of these wounds and holes and gaps and insecurities in you. That she's the answer to all of that to make you feel comfortable with yourself. So you have to take accountability for those wounds. And no, you know, that's not anybody's responsibility, but your own. And it just it's so clear that comes through and  [00:51:28][58.0]

Speaker 2: [00:51:28] it has a great voice. It's just a great spirit. I just wonder wondering, you mentioned, you know, Samoan culture and in the book, you're really clear. You know, you said, Look, this isn't an issue that Samoan. It's not. It's not. It's not. Just in our community, it's in all these communities. But but also I know that in sometimes communities where there's been. You know, racism, a lot of, you know, structural inequality that this kind of a message don't air dirty laundry. You know, don't talk about our business. And how has the book been received, you know? You know, by Samoan community or barrier? Or is it how is it being taken?  [00:52:21][52.7]

Speaker 3: [00:52:24] To be honest, I don't think I've read a bad review yet, but I know will for now work like some of my barbers have commented. They've had a few Pacific salmon boys come through the shop and try and, you know, proud and ask questions, you know? Oh, you know. You, Daniel Format's talking about, you know, of course, this is, you know, has always happens a lot of us, but none of us are talking about is bringing shame on his family on that people. And so this is the feedback that I've received back from my babas. And so I mean, of course, people are going to have to have something to say about the book. But we wanted to the voice in the book. You know, it's how I am. I always we prefer saying Colonel Hickey to come on heat, which is face to face nothing ever trumps face to face. And Brené Brown puts that, you know, people have had to up close. So he may not. And lucky for me, the barbershop was where I had the opportunity to really lean and close with these men and have these hard conversations. We wanted to obviously portray that in the book, coming across compassion and empathetic and gentle. I wanted my voice to be gentle because this is how I am when I am dealing with anyone who is struggling, you know, trying to heal. And so I can't control people's feedback or reviews, know that, but I'm sure I'm definitely sure that people will be causing a ruckus up about this because I'm talking about taboo, Topic said. You know, we shouldn't the our culture for so long have not talked about.  [00:53:56][92.1]

Speaker 2: [00:53:57] Right, right. Add another layer of bravery to it. And I also you mentioned that the reviews, the reviews have been amazing. As you've said, this is the top of the podcast and you were on or you still are on the top of the bestseller list in New Zealand. For the last how many weeks  [00:54:16][19.1]

Speaker 3: [00:54:17] we were number one for four weeks and then now we got pushed. The number two recently  [00:54:21][4.0]

Speaker 2: [00:54:22] had reached out to me. That's it. We don't talk about her being about that's not. We don't talk about that. I want to talk about the fact that this book was number one on on the nonfiction list. You're saying, Yeah,  [00:54:34][12.2]

Speaker 1: [00:54:35] that's pretty honest  [00:54:35][0.4]

Speaker 3: [00:54:36] and fiction, mostly in New Zealand. Yeah, New Zealand. We spoke for four weeks, so was pretty happy because we didn't we didn't even know like this is. Mm hmm. I'm a barber and my wife is, you know, she's she's studying and has her own business. And so, yeah, we just we just pray for a fast. It's important to see that the conversation is being had.  [00:54:57][21.5]

Speaker 1: [00:54:58] That's right. That's amazing. Yeah. No. I think we'd love it if you would, you know, list off the the seven seven principles of the she is not your rehab movement.  [00:55:13][14.9]

Speaker 3: [00:55:16] I don't even anymore.  [00:55:16][0.5]

Speaker 1: [00:55:17] Oh, all right, I'm sorry  [00:55:18][1.2]

Speaker 2: [00:55:18] to have to say this, but I know that I know that's dealing with stuff I read and I'm like, Well, it says, like, I  [00:55:27][8.4]

Speaker 1: [00:55:27] remember, I like principles. She's not responsible for your emotional rehabilitation is your healing is your responsibility and yours. To take the initiative on and manage any healing needed for you cannot come at the expense of her healing, health and well-being.  [00:55:45][18.0]

Speaker 2: [00:55:46] I just won't jump in saying that is maybe my favorite one the whole set anyway. OK.  [00:55:50][4.0]

Speaker 1: [00:55:51] She cannot so she can support you, but she can never do more for you than you are prepared to do for yourself, which is quite an expectation actually, that that know women are supposed to be that soft, safe landing place for men, especially when they have experienced a lot of abuse despite their behaviors of abuse towards women, regardless of what anyone has done to you. It is now time for you to take ownership of your own life and be committed to living it wholeheartedly enough to do any work needed. Your childhood trauma was not your fault, but your healing is. Your responsibility to change comes from genuine growth. Growth happens once we heal. Healing starts, we begin to feel our pain. That's such a that's a hard one to think for a lot of people. You know, there's a lot of impotent, impotent pain, I think, because a lot of people who have been abused feel like the abuse is ongoing or was never acknowledged by their abuser or was covered up by systems or was compounded by professionals, you know, interventions that focused on on our our pain rather than holding people accountable for their behaviors. That's a tough one. Hurt people invariably hurt people because what we do not transform, we transmit onto those around us. Healed people do indeed heal people. So those are the seven principles which you have up on your your Facebook page and website that you initially started teaching in the barbershop as well. And and I really I really think that David's favorite is my favorite, too.  [00:57:54][122.3]

Speaker 2: [00:57:55] Well, I think any healing needed for you cannot come at the expense of her healing, health and well-being. And I guess well, that says to me as. You can get better, are you you're you're focused on you're getting better. Can't be this self-centered extension like dampness, like, you know, what's about me now? And I got to get myself healed and screw the rest of you and I don't care if I'm neglecting you or. And you hear that guys in AA who mistake the message, they'll say nothing is more important than my sobriety. And it just becomes a way, another way to be self-centered. Another way to sort of excuse behavior. And to me, that balance of the you know, that that energy in the whole book to me is encapsulated in some ways because it has any healing you need. So you need healing. But it can't come at the expense of of other people. You're not allowed to walk on somebody to get to a place where your life is going to be better.  [00:58:59][64.2]

Speaker 1: [00:59:00] I think too like for me that that statement also just as a survivor, is, you know, you and I have you been there for me during very deep moments of grief and reprocessing very traumatic information and material. But I know that you're stepping into that space with me, and I'm not demanding you tell me. I'm just you're just there experiencing that moment with me while being compassionate and loving. And I know that it's my responsibility to do the work so that that trauma doesn't. Become the biggest thing in the room, because that is very narcissistic. So many people who are abused can make their their trauma the biggest thing in the room and and not be able to see and hear others because there's just so much pain and unmet need in there. So I think to me, that's when I hear that I that's what I hear. So we hear it through a different lens. Yeah, yeah.  [01:00:26][86.2]

Speaker 2: [01:00:28] So we can keep talking forever to you. At least I could use some, yes. But so we got a couple of wrap up questions for you. So what's? What's next for the she is not your rehab team, like what are your plans for the future? What's going to happen?  [01:00:51][23.8]

Speaker 3: [01:00:52] Yes. Well, we will look we're trying to get the book international more international in the international bookstores, obviously. So we're working with Penguin, our publishers who are working towards that but currently have secret secrets. They get OK, we're working on. We want to we want to infiltrate pop culture with these conversations. And so wifey has been working her battle with good friends wedding a TV script to dramatize series of the book.  [01:01:26][33.4]

Speaker 2: [01:01:26] That's great. Oh, that's great. That's that's great. Where you just let that secret out to hundreds and hundreds of people?  [01:01:33][6.4]

Speaker 3: [01:01:33] I would say any more. That's that.  [01:01:35][1.6]

Speaker 2: [01:01:36] That's right. Yeah, that's great.  [01:01:37][1.0]

Speaker 1: [01:01:38] I mean, I believe that we should we transform ourselves through our stories and and so many of the stories that we see on TV are inundated in violence and control and, you know, dysfunction. So telling the story of self-responsibility and and healing is is just as important. So I think that's amazing. I can't wait to to see that.  [01:02:03][25.4]

Speaker 2: [01:02:04] See, I'm thinking of my connection to New Zealand TV, and one was that some sort of show about about Norse God has shifted those caskets years and and a guy with a leaf blower. Yeah, he wanted a yes. He wanted a bigger and bigger leaf blower.  [01:02:17][13.1]

Speaker 1: [01:02:18] It's very exciting to have.  [01:02:19][1.8]

Speaker 2: [01:02:20] What's really funny  [01:02:20][0.6]

Speaker 1: [01:02:22] is our knowledge of of New Zealand TV.  [01:02:24][2.3]

Speaker 3: [01:02:26] Oh, that's quite big here. But it's just this is not what you guys said in the beginning of this podcast was about the relationship dynamic we really want to highlight like, there is good, there is good men out there. There was good healthy relationships out there and I think more people, I'm tired of seeing the same narrative on our movie screens, on beds everywhere. They've been horrible and failures if we want to highlight. So I think giving men a different and that's what we wanted the book to be giving men a different one, better life that it is possible to shop for yourself, to do the work and to be the father and the husband that you always wanted to be. Just all the other stuff going away in. And so that's what we wanted to help people was regulate their emotions, how to navigate through their trauma and their pain. But we want to show real love like when we when we wrote this book, some of the I won't say who, but people in the publishing house were saying, Oh, it's your story kind of sounds a bit too good to be true, like people want. It's not, too. It's not relatable. But this is our story. This is our story of love and how we fell in love and how we're doing the work together. It's not what you see on Facebook, what you read in the book, what you see on social media is who we are behind closed doors. That's who we are in front of the kids. And so we need more stories like this.  [01:03:43][77.3]

Speaker 1: [01:03:44] Yeah, I always say that I was I always say, you get what you see here. So, you know, without yeah, and especially with you, you're very you're very consistent. You know, I can be a little bit more scared of people because of my experiences in the past. But you're just you're just you and it's real. You know, we don't talk enough about what good relationship looks like, what good partnership means, and right. And it's it's incredibly creative to be able to be in a relationship with somebody who truly is your partner. I mean, I see it with you and Sara that that commitment to believe in doing that work together was there from the beginning of your relationship, really, which is beautiful.  [01:04:34][49.6]

Speaker 2: [01:04:36] Yeah, it's I think I agree with you, Matt. So much needs to be done to share stories of men who are treating their partners with respect of good relationships. And I always think about this, and I remember a conversation with a with a son of a friend of mine that took me a long time into my thirties to to figure out that. Division of Powerful that I was sold as a man with power over was like having to control people and things and and and to meld. Being a powerful human being and connection and vulnerability. And we need that in my mind. That's what I think about it. We need that story. We need that image for men. You can be like a good person. You can be an impact. You're you're you're a successful businessperson. You're, you know, you're starting up, you know, you've got this global movie, you're in the book and you're connected, the connected to Sarah, you're connected to your kids, you're connected to whomever else you're connected to. You want to be vulnerable. And I think we've got to really change the narrative and say, Man, you can be. You know, powerful human beings. But does it involve power over and you can be connected and can be more rewarding, and it can be more meaningful?  [01:05:56][80.5]

Speaker 1: [01:05:57] Right? Because you'll be able to be seen and loved and and you'll get the nourishment that you ultimately seek. Right?  [01:06:07][10.0]

Speaker 2: [01:06:08] So where can people get the book and we can put this in the show notes as well. But when you tell people the best way to get them to get the book, whether wherever they are because we got people listening in the Kingdom and the United States, Australia, how do they get the book?  [01:06:23][15.4]

Speaker 3: [01:06:25] They can just jump on our website. We know she is not your rehab dot com, and we have obviously a few these different websites on there that will link you to. But if you are Australia international or the states and you, you can purchase it there.  [01:06:41][16.2]

Speaker 2: [01:06:41] So and I ordered it, I preordered it. I may have been the first person the United States you had it. I don't know if that's true or not did not sign it.  [01:06:49][7.7]

Speaker 1: [01:06:49] Now imagine that you didn't sign his book. We're going to have to bring it to New Zealand with this or have  [01:06:54][4.9]

Speaker 2: [01:06:54] him come over here where people can travel and  [01:06:56][1.7]

Speaker 3: [01:06:58] hang out of YouTube.  [01:06:58][0.4]

Speaker 2: [01:06:59] Yeah. And that, you know, and we usually wrap up with this question, you know, what do you want professionals to take away from this? Like, we got a lot of child welfare workers and court personnel and all sorts of folks mental health addiction, folks, what what do you want them to take away from this, from your book and from this conversation?  [01:07:20][21.1]

Speaker 3: [01:07:23] Quick question. I. I don't know when you professionals, you are dealing with people who are traumatized in trauma has multiple manifestations. You know, the definition of trauma that I love as is, by the way, is through Gabbar Matter who says trauma as in what happens to you, but what happens inside of you as a result of what happened to you? And so I think we need to humanize the people that were working once perpetrators of violence or kids stuck in the system or women who are being abused. These are very real lived experiences for them. And so when you humanize them, you humanizing by having empathy. And you seeing them seeing them treating them like a human? Hearing them as the most important thing, I think. As a professional, you can also see the rolling out do recipe list. Rolled out some empathy and set what people said was people, we live in a society where everyone has everyone has to have an answer. Everyone has to fix things, but sometimes just listening is the most powerful thing we can do.  [01:08:41][77.8]

Speaker 2: [01:08:43] And what what message do you have for? Domestic violence survivors. You know, I know that some of your audience is, you know, is, is the partners, you know, this is the way the book is is written for.  [01:08:58][14.4]

Speaker 1: [01:08:58] And no, the survivors look at this. And again, she is not your rehab and there's a man on it and he wrote it. Yes, there's a lot of survivors.  [01:09:06][7.6]

Speaker 2: [01:09:07] Yeah, a lot of stuff. I know you do. You've had women. I don't know where I read the book or other places they come up to you and talk to you. What message do you want them to take away from the book and or for this podcast?  [01:09:17][10.4]

Speaker 3: [01:09:21] Paul. Read the book,  [01:09:23][2.2]

Speaker 2: [01:09:26] buy the book, read the book for the  [01:09:27][1.4]

Speaker 3: [01:09:27] book, but I also I acknowledge, I acknowledge people who have experienced it and been a victim of domestic violence. I acknowledge it. I am you. I, my mum was you. And so I'm not. I don't want to speak into a space for woman was woman. Yet women have this space my wife has. She's got her voice. But my thing is to men, please own your shit, own your. You know, you can't remain a victim forever. It wasn't your fault. It wasn't your fault. What happened to you? But it's your responsibility to heal, to do better and better.  [01:10:01][34.1]

Speaker 2: [01:10:03] And that's where we're going. That's where we're going to end back. I can't tell you how great it is. I'll be on the show and this is part of and to be and this is part one. We're going to have to have Sarah and Matt  [01:10:15][12.0]

Speaker 1: [01:10:15] back because technically this was written by Matt with Sarah Brown, right? Because Sarah also wrote bits in there. So I think it's important to have the partnership aspect. You know, we we talk a lot about working with victims of domestic violence, the adult and child survivors, and we talk about that from the perspective of being above them and trying to offer them assistance. But we so rarely talk about what it looks like when one has a good relationship and professionals don't necessarily model that for us either. They don't model empathy and they don't mind.  [01:10:55][40.0]

Speaker 3: [01:10:56] You know, we love to speak in this space,  [01:10:57][1.3]

Speaker 2: [01:10:58] and we're going to set that up with her Facebook. So, Matt, thank you so much.  [01:11:03][5.3]

Speaker 3: [01:11:04] Thank you.  [01:11:04][0.2]

Speaker 2: [01:11:05] And I think and and we are partnered with a survivor. Yes. And I am David Mandel, executive director of the Safety Institute. And we have been talking to Matt Brown.  [01:11:13][8.7]

Speaker 1: [01:11:14] Yes, we have been members resistance man down. And I am your partner and I am a survivor, right?  [01:11:21][6.8]

Speaker 2: [01:11:21] Do you want to learn more? Check out our website safety other sitcom  [01:11:25][4.1]

Speaker 1: [01:11:27] so you can go to our academy to get some free or paid e-learning to become domestic violence informed with a view towards child wellbeing and that is Academy Dot Safe and together institute dot com. And that includes our courses working with men as parents, why fathers choices matter  [01:11:49][22.2]

Speaker 2: [01:11:50] and if you don't already follow this podcast, share with us. Subscribe to our social media, Facebook, Twitter and Instagram, and all the things and all the things, whatever YouTube and everything else.  [01:12:03][13.1]

Speaker 1: [01:12:04] All right, all right. And and  [01:12:06][1.6]

Speaker 2: [01:12:07] we're out. We're out.  [01:12:07][0.0]