Season 2 Episode 24: From Police Inspector to “Moral Rebel”: An Interview with Graham Goulden

Ask Graham Goulden about the bystander approach to violence prevention, he’ll talk to you about being a “moral rebel”—those who intervene to stop violence when others stand by and act when others walk away. A former Scottish police officer and Chief Investigator specializing in criminal investigation, drug investigation, training, and crime prevention, Graham is a passionate advocate of the bystander approach and focuses on teaching concrete behavioral strategies to safely intervene in the attitudes that promote abuse and sexual violence well before it occurs. He speaks about ways we can train our brain to intervene, hold our friends and loved ones accountable, and become effective active bystanders.

In this episode, Ruth and David talk with Graham about his active bystander work within law enforcement, where attitudes of organizational self-protection and the misapplied notions of loyalty often harm those reporting dangerous and criminal behaviors by coworkers. The three of them discuss: 

• Graham’s involvement with the Scottish National Police’s “Don’t Be That Guy” campaign focused on men’s sexually assaultive attitudes and behaviors
• Concrete actions can bystanders take to safely intervene when they see men behaving in abusive ways
• Changing law enforcement attitudes around perpetration of intimate partner and sexual violence

Now available! Mapping the Perpetrator’s Pattern: A Practitioner’s Tool for Improving Assessment, Intervention, and Outcomes The web-based Perpetrator Pattern Mapping Tool is a virtual practice tool for improving assessment, intervention, and outcomes through a perpetrator pattern-based approach. The tool allows practitioners to apply the Model’s critical concepts and principles to their current case load in real

Check out David Mandel's new book Stop Blaming Mothers and Ignoring Fathers: How to Transform the Way We Keep Children Safe from Domestic Violence.

Visit the Safe & Together Institute website.

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Transcript

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And we're back and we're back. Oh, wow. 

This has been a little bit of a break again and speak a little bit of a break that we've taken. 

We haven't exactly taken a break. We're working very hard over here. 

That's true. You are listening to partner with Survivor and I am David Mandel, executive director of the Safe and Together Institute. 

And I'm with Jones, Bendall and I'm the e-learning, communications and strategic relationship manager. 

And we are not quite finished with our worker safety many so series where we're picking that up again. So we're kind of following that along. There's two more, there's two more many. So it's coming, but we're we're actually really ironically super excited. So I have to say that today, I actually have to say today, we're really super excited and that is that sort of thing people have noticed. But we've got to do because we're doing this week both with men about their work with man and just to this idea of of, you know, speaking to men's roles, working against gender based violence. And yeah, and that's obviously, you know, deeply important to me. 

Yeah. Well, I think that, you know, one of the reasons that this was an important episode for us is that we know that unless we address men and their choices around violence and control that we will never truly stop violence against women. All of our systems have been created to be reactive to violence, including including systems that we necessarily need and need the support of like refuges and law enforcement. But they've all been created to be reactive to violence, and we don't want to continuously be reactive to violence. So it's important for us to hear about how to engage men. 

And, you know, before we introduce Graham because we haven't even mentioned Graham's name. We're going to be talking to Graham Goodwin. Yes, but before we do that, you know, I tweeted something out this week and you commented on it. And again, I don't talk about actually, I have a Twitter feed that you've encouraged me to use. Yes. And it's at David G. Mandel, I don't think you've ever said that on the show. It's pretty funny. Isn't it funny? You know, and but I tweeted something out this week, which was about an interaction that was related to me where there was a multidisciplinary team meeting and they were talking about their four high risk issues around domestic abuse. And somebody presented a lot of detail around the perpetrators pattern and somebody else who was, you know, facilitating and sharing the meeting said, Oh, we don't need that this. We don't need this information about the perpetrators pattern. This meeting is about the victim safety. Well, how did you and and safety at that hour? And so to me, I was kind of a classic. Yeah, and you commented on it. Yeah, but about the craziness of that, which is sort of the invisibility of of of perpetrators, but invisibility of men and men's roles and responsibilities is so obvious in that. And this is a system wide issue. And it's and it's a it's an issue related to high risk cases. And so people are thinking, Oh, I can actually do the work with survivors and ignore the people actually doing the abuse. Right. 

So and so we we're not going to do the whole podcast right now with no, 

no, but I just want to get that. I want to get that. I want to give that. 

So let's talk about Graham's bio here. Graham Golden is a former Scottish national police officer, and he has his own organization, and I believe it's called Sam. What's the name of the organization again, cultivating minds UK? Is that correct? Yeah. And he developed a program to create a much needed conversation around issues that can impact negatively on learning on businesses, sports and individuals around violence. And it's an active bystander program, and it's concrete. He actually has strategies that people can use to intervene and engage individuals who are who are choosing violence in different contexts. So, so Graham, I just wanted to say thank you for coming on, and I'm going to let you give a little bit more detailed bio because I was having a hard time navigating my paper over here. But thank you for coming on. 

Yeah, thank you, Graham. 

It's a pleasure. And that's such an American term. Super excited. It's only when they go to the U.S. to say he is super excited, but he that I'm super excited to be. Do I have to have to have the conversation? And you did really well there with my my my background. I spent 30 years in policing and in Scotland and the last nine years of policing. I was a chief inspector working with the Scottish Violence Reduction Unit and I supported the. Last nine years that I really started to look at violence prevention, not just for the short term, but for the long term. And that's when I became a passionate and engaged, you know, around the bystander. 

Now you are working actively now and not with the police in Scotland, but you are working with individuals, organizations and also doing some law enforcement work here in the United States. Can you kind of break down those buckets? You know what you're doing in those areas? 

Yeah. You know, all my work stems, I think stems from my time in the police, the police service, you know, you know, from day one, they would often if you witnesses bystanders, people who'd seen things, heard things and you know, they would often say things like, you know, to me, like, you know, I knew something was going to happen. I could tell this wasn't going to end well. And that would include times when friends were about to be a victim or a friend was about to be a harm to a perpetrator. And I used to get really frustrated at, you know, these individuals thinking, Why did you not speak up? Why did you not do something? And it was in those last years of policing, working, looking at violence prevention that I I started to see the potential for us, not just to tell people to step up, to help people step up, right? Because I think it's really it's really important. We just expect people to see things to do things. You know, we have that phrase, if you see something, say something. And I think we need to help people break that down. So I left policing in 2017. I retired from policing and I just set out myself as a consultant trainer and I walk in and workplaces tackling harassment and bullying. I work in schools and universities tackling domestic abuse, sexual violence prevention. I've worked in prisons, you know, you know, engaging men in conversations around violence and just violence against women and girls. That means violence against men means violence. Get some sales or, you know, I think there's big linkages there that we can make, but always using this bystander approach. What I like about the bystander approach is it just allows me to invite people, especially men, into a conversation. You know, often boys and men are looked at as problems or potential problems, especially when it comes to domestic abuse or sexual violence. And we know from past these research that can sometimes just switch people off. It can cause pushback, and we've seen a lot of that in the last in the last few years. Whereas the bystander approach that I was taught by the US advocate, Dr Jason Katz, really gave me a tool to go into all of these different settings to engage all these different communities. Because one thing I really believe in is the power of community. You know, prevention starts in a community by a community. I mean a workplace, a sports team, a school, a university. It could be a village, it could be a town, it could be a city, right? It's thinking about that. 

Yeah, we often think about the need to intervene in potentially violent or abusive behavioral situations as the police need to intervene or a professional needs to intervene. And those situations are incredibly scary. And there's a lot of adrenaline running through your body. And and of course, law enforcement is trained how to manage that, you know, in certain situations. But civilians are not and giving people those concrete tools and concrete behaviors that they can engage in on scripts around how to engage somebody who's either perpetrating that violence or experiencing violence is incredibly important to making people comfortable because we don't know what to do and and the brain naturally switches off in those moments when we're most needed to to truly intervene. So can you tell us some of the ways that you're doing that? How are you? How are you doing that with your trainings? 

Here's the thing. You know, the bystander toolkit that I discuss is inside our head all the time. It's there, we have it. But what we and you pointed out there that when you witness a challenging situation, your brain starts to compensate you. I think it's your amygdala gets hijacked. They call it, we call it the amygdala hijack. Adrenaline goes there. And you know, one thing you know, we teach and when I was taught to law enforcement was just just take a step step by deep breath. And when you do that, you start to put more oxygen back into your brains. You can start to make decisions. But let's face it, you know, policing has struggled this year to engage, and maybe we'll talk about that as we go through this, this conversation. But for me, you know, every one of us has the potential to make a difference. I always start with that conversation. Everybody in the unit, United States here in Scotland have the potential to make a difference. Often, movements start with one person with bystanders. And what we can do is my work is as well. I spend a lot of time talking about why people don't act, because when you start to make that visible for people, especially say, for example, in group settings, we talk about the bystander effect, you know, and group settings were very easy to set. Both are not intervening because nobody else's. So simply by being aware of that and you know, there's there's a research from the 1960s John Daly and Bob Latinate from America did some some researchers looked at group situations and they just identified that the bigger the group, the less likely you speak up. The social science suggests that even simply being aware of that helps you overcome it when you see it for real. There's lots of other inhibitors when you talk about, you know, apathy, a lack of tools. It's not my business, you know? But I also think we need to not just simply look at stranger situations. Will we have that physical fear? You know that, you know, if you see two people you don't know fighting on the street or something's happening and you don't know these people, we have that that that sense that, you know, if I step in, I could get physically hurt. But I focus a lot of my work around friendship groups, known peer groups. I don't think, you know, I don't fear my best friends punching me in the face if I challenge that behavior. But as a young man, I would fear being, you know, socially isolated from, you know, from a peer group, you know, being ridiculed, you know, being challenged and potentially losing friends like lots of young people, they fear losing friends. And one thing I've learned recently is that the part of the brain that lights up when you physically hurt yourself also lights up when you are in these situations where your friends are involved. And if you if you step in, you fear losing friends, and that's painful. So actually shows up in a cat scan or whatever as as a as a pain moment for that. So for me, I spend a lot of my time speaking about why people don't act and presenting lots of evidence, lots of films so that, you know, because in many ways, if we can make the invisible visible, then people can't unsee it. So when things happen for real, you know, they can do, and then we could put them into realistic scenarios where we pressed the pause button and we we, you know, we talk about what's going on in the scenario. I might, you know, throw in some awareness of domestic abuse or sexual violence or hate crime. And then we then discuss what we can do and say. And with some, you know, some strategies that we can all do, we can intervene directly, we can speak to people, Hey, stop that. Or if it's a friend, hey, I'm your friend. You know, I respect you enough to tell you this. I think that's wrong. What you're doing. You know, we can we can create distractions and disruptions. We can change the subject. We can take our friends away from a situation. We can engage our allies. I think key for bystanders is finding friends, right? And you know, let's face it, there is more good in the world than bad. So most people, when they see situations that we become like, you know, violence and abuse, most people, you know, the dead against that they don't like it. But unless they see people speaking up, the more likely you are to sort of walk away, so help them find a friend is important. And lastly, defer to other people to speak to police. You know, speak to the high school teacher, speak to your manager. And I think one thing that bystanders often think is that they have to intervene at the time. And yet Elliot is better, but better late than never. You can still intervene after a situation has taken place simply by saying, You know, Hey, I saw what happened to you. That wasn't your fault. And evidence says that that can actually lead to a more fulfilling life in a school and a workplace. Simply being active after the event can make a difference. Right? 

It's it's great to hear about this. I think for our listeners, what I want them to think about is is, you know, you're putting, you know, if we're talking about male violence against other man, male violence against women and girls, that we're putting those people who are who are using violence back in the context of their networks. I think we tend to see them as isolated. We use language, they're an offender or perpetrator, you know, and we I don't think we've got a really well-developed sensibility of time to say, who is he close to? Who who knows him, who is who, who supports them and being a better person who's actually facilitating his violence because I did men's behavior change work for years and always, I think about these, these two men I work with, you know, the stories are side by side. One was a man who went over and assaulted his ex-wife and his brother drove him there, you know, and facilitated rights. And that's one example. But then I have another guy that I work with quite a bit who remember the guy's name, the guy's name, his friend was Al, and Al would stop him literally physically from going over. This is a different guy from Gardner's ex-wife and say, it's not worth it. Don't go. You know, and he was a physical intervenor with his friend. And and for me, that was it was, you know, you read the most read news stories about domestic violence, homicides or other things, and these guys are often not put into context. You'll hear about she went to her mom's as she went to her sisters, or the police came or responded to her. And there's a lot of contextualizing and often a very blaming, and she didn't go back to refuge when she could've or she came back from the refuge, very subtle or not subtle blaming, but he's kind of exist in this vacuum. And I love that you're putting you're putting these these folks in our communities who are choosing minds back into connection in the way you talk about it. 

And we need to be connected to how we the reality is we are connected to people who have been abused and people who have been abusive. All of us in some way, shape or form. And as this as a society above and beyond arrest and incarceration, we have to be able to have strategies to hold each other accountable so that we can have those connections, those safe connections. And we have often fostered an attitude, especially around intimate partner violence and male violence, that it's too dangerous to have that conversation that people should not be doing it for their own safety. And so we have given them carte blanche to do nothing. Yeah, to say nothing. Instead of giving them tools, respecting the reality that people live and love and work with and our friends with these people who are perpetrating violence. So, you know, like art for our approach to choose to change, guide the Ally Guide, fit into that active bystander, creating networks of support for good behaviors and accountability for behaviors which are destructive. So we really like that approach. Graham Yeah, 

Ithink it's really important because if all we're doing is teaching people to intervene at the point of an incident involving strangers basically playing Whack-A-Mole, that's all we're doing. You know, we're not and we need to reduce them all. And I think one of the, you know, one of the first campaigns in the US that that really brought in peers was the drink driving friends. Don't let friends drive drunk, right? You know, I'd like to see more of that. You know, friends don't let friends sexually harass women. Friends don't let friends. You know that that example you gave David about a friend who didn't take their friend to banks wife's house. You know, a friend is being a good friend by stopping that person from doing something that can only harm the victim, but could ultimately harm that. You know, that person could be arrested, charged whatever so does, and I think violence will. We'll see big reductions in violence and abuse is when friends lend lend to help other friends accountable. And you're right, there is. It's way off. You know, where do we intervene? We wait for the, you know, the punch to kick to happen, or we wait or intervene with the words and language and attitudes. And that's where my work, you know, focuses on it. You know, every single day I encourage men to to, you know, role model, verbal, physical, emotional respect in their workplaces and in the sports teams with their friends, you know, because you know, we need to create cultures of of nonviolence, cultures of not abuse. We don't do that by simply intervening at the time of an incident because too late. 

Yeah. Well, you were recently involved in the the Scottish National Police campaign, weren't you? You want to talk about that campaign because I loved that campaign. I thought it was brilliant. And I have to say this big kudos to the Scottish National Police because this is this is innovation. This is cutting edge stuff. This is really, really good. So big thumbs up all the fingers like just, yes, I love it. So go ahead and talk about it. 

Yeah. So we had a horrific incident back in 2000 marks this year when young lady Sarah Everard was was murdered by a police officer. And maybe we'll talk about that as we go through. And and you know, I was I was on Scottish television speaking about the incident, and I remember there was a there was a segment on the television program before I spoke, and I remember this young lady saying something like, you know, I'm scared of men, I'm scared of men. And I remember some scribbling a little note at my book. I need to see that when I'm on television, and I started off by saying, you know, we just heard from a young lady who was scared of men. And I just said, Guys, how do you feel about that? How do how do you feel that we have women in 2021, in Scotland who are scared of us? And I said, you know, that won't change until we do more and we speak up. And I I started talking about, you know, I'm I'm a big believer and sweating the small stuff. You know, if we've heard that phrase, don't sweat the small stuff and that, you know, you know, when it comes to violence and abuse, I'm not saying words and language is small because we know it's not, you know, verbal abuse. Emotional abuse is terrifying for people, but society seems to minimize words and language, especially if it's online as well. We, we tend to minimize that. So I said, you know, we need to make a connection between words, language, attitudes and what happened to, said Everard. Because, you know, physical violence, murder, kidnaping doesn't just happen, has to start somewhere, right? 

And he was actively called the rapist by his colleagues. So they were. Aware of his his his violence. 

Yeah, yeah, it was it was his attitudes that I believe led to his nickname is being given to the officer. And I remember a few weeks after that, I got a phone call from a colleague who works in the corporate communications department in Police Scotland. And he said, Graham, you liked what you said. You joined up some of the dots for us. Would you want to work together on the campaign? So I said, Yeah, who wouldn't want to do this? So we just we just sat down. We talked about, you know, because in the past, policing has tended to look at men as the problem. And you know, that's when you get the pushback in evidence, says the pushback. It's going to come. And we still so we saw that after Sarah Everard case that not all men hashtag. So what we what we came up with was this idea of asking men to self inspect about their behaviors and attitudes. But then with this new lens, how can you use your your role, your as a father, as a as a as a as a sports coach, as a teacher, as a frame male friend? How can you use your state as a leader in many ways to try and prevent these issues in the 60 second film by, you know, you push the link for me, we put this out, you know, the 60 second film, the first 10 Seconds focuses on where all men have been, you know, you know, laughing at jokes, you know, even even telling jokes. But after this, after that was first 10 seconds, we then move into active actions of abuse. You know, getting a girl drunk, you know, and and using that to, you know, to have sex with. So and most men don't get to that part for a lot of us are silent around that part. When we see our friends, you know, behaving in certain ways, we are weird. We have that social fear. And again, going back to what I said at the start, we need to help men overcome those emotions. Physical fear is the social fear that is really, really telling in these situations so that that film just asks men. Please, please. You know, you come on board, you know, and I think after the sale of every Ivanov case, we just read the room in the Police Scotland, read the room really well. And with that, that's been I think it's been viewed four or five million times globally. I've had men reach out to me saying, Graham, thank you for that. You've just that campaign just allowed me to escape the shackles of masculinity that I've been living with, you know, for many years. And the feedback we got from women's organizations. Yeah, well done more, please. 

Yes, it was wonderful. 

Right. And that campaign is called what? Again, I don't know if you gave us the title. 

It's don't be that guy. OK, we'll be that guy. And it's a 

very American word, by the way. I didn't choose Buffalo, by the way. 

Right? Yeah, you didn't say anything. Yeah, yeah. So one, you know, you kind of pointed to it a couple of times, and I want to pick up on the thread because we're talking about Sarah Eberhard and we're talking about the police culture. You know, where where there was this kind of common knowledge about his attitude and you know, you know, ah, you know, and that just that just is so painful to hear, right? You know, to hear that this wasn't just attitudes and it wasn't just the acceptance of this as behaviors and just but but you, you know about our work around officer about domestic violence and our, you know. And so it's hard for me not to think about that in this context. And I believe you've done some work in that space where, you know, because what we've heard, you know, what we know about is that those officers who are committing domestic abuse against their family members are often difficult officers on the street. They're different, difficult officers as colleagues. They can be harassing of their peers. They could be bullying of their peers. And so this is the domestic abuse by officers is not only a public safety issue, it's not only a family issue for the family victims, but it's a police culture workplace issue as well. Because so can you speak to your work at that, that kind of intersection? 

Yeah, you know, every police officer, well, the vast majority of police officers would have really felt that moment when when Cousins was was charged with the murder. Same in the US when Derek Chauvin was charged and convicted of the George Floyd case, and I was taught in my early years in policing. Every police officer is the face of the police service. When the, you know, when they're doing the day to day, you know, work, you know, you represent not just yourself, you represent the whole of the service. And you know, one thing, you know, one thing that came out from the Everard case and from the Derek Chauvin case, as well as a sense of loyalty that you know, we have. You know what? We need police officers to be loyal to each other. You know, we need them to be looking out for each other, supporting each other. But we need to develop a sense of critical loyalty where we tell our colleagues what they need to hear, not what they want to hear. And I think there's a lot of that going on. I think within within policing and lots of other male dominated cultures, we have that. For example, if you look at the Derek Chauvin case, the George Floyd case, lots of us would be focusing on the racial tensions that were at play there. You know, there's this big as evidence around the Harvard Institute talks about masculinity, contest cultures that exist and male. And I know I know us policing is trying to increase male female officers within within law enforcement departments. And I think it's it's not as this this work requires, as you know, requires an intervention that looks not just a domestic abuse or sexual harassment or racism or homophobia. We need to make it relevant to everybody in the organization and give them the tools because, you know, I you know, I read an article a couple of years ago which says on any given day, 70 percent of police officers work, so 50 percent police officers will come to work and do the right thing no matter what. They'll do the right thing, stand up for what they believe in, and these are the moral rebels out there. Fifteen percent of officers will come and they're never there to harm. Do it. I'm not a bad apples fan. I don't believe in bad apples. I thing that suggests inevitability, you know? So is 50 percent of us will come to work and do bad things. The rest, you know, the rest, the 70 percent they're susceptible to do nothing. Don't end with the poor behavior. Or we could actually influence them to do the right thing. So it's about giving them the tools and and creating the conversations where they start to see that the vast majority of cops want to do the right thing. 

And yeah, I love that Graham and I also think supporting them in holding those people accountable is super important because a lot of times what we see is that perpetrators, particularly ones that have tremendous power and control and influence, are capable of manipulating policies or, you know, you know, practices that are already in place to create invisibility and impunity around them. But also, the workers who are trying to hold that person accountable are often not supported by their supervisors and managers and leadership, and that that a bad Apple theory is essentially putting responsibility on individuals rather than the organization, the entity who is supposed to be protecting the well-being of all of their workers and supposed to be supporting and fostering an environment that supports, you know, law enforcement, piece protection, you know, all of those things. And that's that's not really what's happening right now. Like, that's that's a real thing. And we know that across the board globally. So how do we how do we use this active bystander model to really push organizations to do their their diligence around their workers? 

Yeah. You know, we often talk about this top down approach that we need. You know, we need leadership to create the conditions for active bystanders. But we also need a bottom up approach where we give, you know, you know, the patrol officers, the police officers on the ground, the confidence and skills to do what's needed way before it becomes the big issue. You know, I'm convinced that if somebody had challenging cousins for 10, five, 10, 15 years ago so that everybody would still be alive today, I'm convinced of that because we know from research that violence and abuse will continue to evolve into other forms and shapes until we have interruption. So for me, that's the active bystander, and I think I think it's really important, you know, in the US, for example, back in 2013 14, after Hurricane Katrina, the New Orleans Police Department introduced epic. Ethical policing is courageous and it was an active bystander program and within a year, and it was on the back of high levels of misconduct in policing and in New Orleans and a falling in public trust with, you know, with the police and within a year, they actually increased trust and reduced misconduct. And what they said, they come of what they said, you know, you know, contribute to these success was simply having the conversations within an organization, always the healthy norms to rise to the surface. Because if you don't have the conversations, people are left wondering, you know, do my friends think the same as me? And then how do is I just left thinking I can do what one he and no one's going to challenge me. And then on the back of George Floyd, they created the act of bystander and law enforcement program, the Able Program. I think it's formed from Georgetown University, and I'm one of the trainers that we train US police departments around the US to deliver, you know, trainings to officers. And it's really good. It's really powerful. It's, you know, it's not just focusing on misconduct, it focuses on mistakes and it focuses on mental health as well and makes it relevant. And you can talk about sexism, you can talk about racism, you can talk about an officer who's struggling at home, you know, because it's relevant to everybody. The question we ask is, you know, in your business and your setting, and we might be asked, Is anybody listening today in your business and you're setting who is harmed when we fail to see active bystanders, you just leave that one hanging just there because that's relevant. You know, victims are harmed, public confidence is harmed. The whole organization can be poisoned by, you know, behaviors continuing right now. So for me, you know, there's lots we can be doing simply having the conversation that brings the bystander, you know, front and center not pointing at them and saying, you need to be doing more, but helping them right? 

Ireally I really feel that and I think about how our minds again say, you know, in a work situation, in a work setting where somebody is experiencing violence or harassment or sexual harassment, that a lot of the ways that we've thought about dealing with that is through a law enforcement lens where we have been hesitant to step in unless somebody has been arrested and convicted of a crime, when in reality, we have every right as organizations, as employers, as coworkers to say this person is harming my safety and my ability to do my job and is an impediment to the values and the mission of this organization and they need to be dealt with. These behaviors need to be dealt with because they're harming our ability and our cohesion of our teams. And that's not what's happened. So I think it's really good to give people the the language around that, that the steps that they can take that are not arrest or law enforcement involvement, but are cultural holding of accountability and saying these behaviors, these specific behaviors are unacceptable in our context. And let us help you to do better. And if? You can't do better than you are not in alignment with our values. And we have every right to ask you to leave our organization. And I don't think that that's happened culturally very well because of our focus on physical violence and also because of our focus on arrest and incarceration. But we can do this. It is. It is. It is absolutely possible to do it. 

You know, I'm thinking about as we're talking about all this, all the different scenarios, situations over the course of my life where I've actually chosen to actually intervene and be the first on the street or then also in more intimate settings with people. And you know, I could think of half a dozen times where actually I intervened in stranger situations where there was a violent assault going on and it was scary. And I felt compelled. And I think that's what I'm kind of want to explore with you about this for a second. Based on my values, I felt like I couldn't stand by, you know, and and you know, and these were, you know, somebody chasing his partner out of his house with a pipe. This was, you know, a campground where I heard, you know, somebody assaulting somebody and there were there was a lot of, you know, you used the term distraction, a lot of like getting somebody's attention away from targeting somebody. And so it wasn't, you know, even what you're doing is wrong. It's Hey, can I get your attention? Whatever that was the case of saying, Hey, I called the police, you better be careful. Stop what you're doing. And it wasn't like I thought it was OK. Or sort of he should get away with it. And I hadn't called the police, but I was telling him, Hey, you better. You know, the situation's changing. And you know, and I'm just wondering again, sort of whether it's in the workplace or, you know, it's it's in these other settings. What you're really finding encouraging is that reflection and that step towards action. What what are you finding through your work that really works in that direction? 

You know, a couple of things, you know, David, you just you know, you're you're what we call in the business of moral rebel, right? You're a person who. And we have moral rebels and we can learn loads from, you know, the the think of the rescuers from the Holocaust. You know, what was it that like them to to speak up and put himself at great in great danger? You think of civil rights activist Martin Luther King and other great leaders in the 50s and 60s, you know, and often it's good values, good, good, good upbringing. You know, freedom to have conversations with the parents, parents not being so rigid in their views that, you know, and that can help, you know, because one thing that we can all do to all of these experiences is all of these incidents you're talking about is bring our values, bring our attitudes, you know, bring our experiences to that precise moment. You know, for example, if you're if you're speaking to a survivor of domestic abuse, you know, you will know that simply saying to a survivor, Hey, that wasn't your fault. You don't deserve that. That can be really, really powerful, you know, and you can you can leave a trace of yourself when you see these things. So for me, it's about helping people. One licking all the research, all the evidence from decades ago around moral revolves around why people don't act. The next big thing for me is finding friends, helping people find a friends, find their allies because it's easier to intervene in a situation. If you know you have an ally to help you, you know, Hey, can you help me out? Evan Stove, the US psychologist, talks about this. He did some research in the 70s, which I think is a seven. He suggested that simply by saying to passive bystanders, Hey, can you help me? Will activate other people 100 percent. The time says, Hey, that's that's that's enough. And lastly, empathy empathy is a big driver for active bystander ship, and that's why I think it's important that we allow men especially to start all thinking about girls and women in their lives. Because, yeah, you know, you can progress onto all women as we know that, you know, I've been there, but I remember Jackson Katz asking me, you know, as a man, what are you doing to prevent violence? And I know he asked me that in 2009, and no one had ever asked me that question before as a man, and he gave me the space he allowed me to start thinking about, you know, my you know, my, you know, my family, my two adult daughters. And I started to think of their experiences and and seeing that, you know, both of them, you know, have experienced some men's abuse at some stage in the life. I knew that. And that's empathy. And I think empathy is a big driver for active bystander. And if it gets men in the room and you know, it got me in the room and I'm still here, you know, you know, I see I see that for all women know, you know, that that sense of empathy. So I think empathy is important. Finding friends is important, but conversation is something that we don't have. We don't invest enough in our training, will do online trainings, will do lectures, will reinforce policies, whatever that is, we need to. But we need to create a space for conversations, because I think that the answers to lots of my questions are already in the room. You know, most you know, it's there. 

I'm just wondering if you've got any stories about men coming together to confront other men so you do, what's making me think about it is. But, you know, reach out to somebody, have a friend, talk to somebody else about it. But I'm just wondering, you know, we think about interventions people do with alcoholics. I'm just wondering if you have any stories about about groups of men, groups of mates, of somebody going and sort of talking among themselves first and saying, We've got to talk to John. We've got to talk to so-and-so. 

Yeah, yeah, I can. I want to help start. A program up in Scotland called the Mentors and Violence Prevention Program is a US based program MVP program. And I've got loads of stories of young young men, 17 18, who have started conversations in a locker room because that one of their friends was talking was was being quite sexist, and he just, like, timed out and had a conversation about it. I've had, you know, the men's hockey team from the University of Edinburgh. You know, often men's sports get quite a bad, a bad reputation in university, say. And you say in the US, swimmers here in the UK, in Scotland and the men's hockey team, you know, agreed to be a participant in the Don't Be That Guy campaign and really made a lovely film about their views on sexual entitlement. Their views on on on current issues that was going on. And that's why it's important that we that we encourage men to have these conversations with each other. You're right. You know, why wait for John to do something? But let's let's create a conversation as early as possible. Set the tone for the sports team, for the youth, for the school or for whatever. But yeah, you know, I've had I've had men, you know, after training, come up to me and said, Hey, I've got a friend who is, you know, be really abusive to his wife, you know, very, very controlling. And he said, he said to me, You know, my wife is a friend of the lady, the victim and is supporting her. And I said, Well, that's good. OK, so what's what's he like in this friendship groups? And he said he's a real controller. He said, Well, that's that's how you go here. That's how you find ways to have a conversation with your other friends and challenge what's the most challenging abuse of his wife because it's dangerous for, you know, for the victim survivor here. But just, you know, have the courage, the moral courage to have a conversation and give people tips to be able to do these things. 

I'm going to go there with the TV show Ted Lasso here for a second because you were talking about you're talking about sports clubs and teams like that, I know you haven't seen the show because we talked about this before we started recording. But I want to just do a shout out for listeners if they haven't watched this show. Ted Lasso, I'm not getting anything to endorse. This is really a no, and I guess that is going to carry so forth. But I do, because I see so few unfortunately positive media portrayals of men in sports and men in this way that Ted Lasso stands out because it's about American football. American football coach going to to England to coach it, a sport. He knows nothing about soccer, football and which is ridiculous. It's ridiculous and it should be ridiculous. But but but he brings this attitude about relationship about, he says relationship is more important than winning. You know, he says, so you ready kind of breaks it apart, and he's about helping people achieve their potential as human beings. And the show is about masculinity. The show is about fathers and sons, fathers abusing their sons, you know, putting pressure on to succeed. It's about men supporting each other. It really is, and it's very conscious and men 

supporting women and 

and creating a different culture, you know, that starts on the show very bullying in the locker room. And he, the coach, transforms it through his leadership. So anyway, just I couldn't resist because I'm so, I'm so excited about the show. 

Ijust I was kind of stuck on something that that you said, Graham, about, about empathy. And it's interesting. As a survivor, I had a little bit of a reaction to that because I've I've actually never known anybody's empathy to give me any that gave me any functional support. People can feel empathy, but not know the steps to functionally support other people and and around men and their violence. I would want them to have these conversations about male violence because male violence impacts them too, because suicidality among men is super high because of their mental health issues. Because violence of men against boys and men and boys watching men be violent to other men and women and children is a damaging thing for men themselves. And I would want men to step into this conversation because I want men to be healthy because I want them to be connected to their loved ones in ways that are nourishing and meaningful to both that man and to the person they're in connection with. And because I think that men must feel a tremendous amount of shame walking around in a world where they know that so many people are afraid of them because of male violence and they become defensive, become because of that. But it is a reality, and I would want men to be healthier. That's why I would want them to step into those conversations around male violence, not just for women, but for men too. 

Iwould agree, you know, you know, one thing I often ask in my trainings if people are coming along is the professional. You know, I'll ask, you know, who's the moms and dads here? Who's the brothers and sisters? Who's the friend? She's got friends because, you know, violence has the potential to be deeply personal to everybody in this room, everybody in every single room. It may already be deeply personal to people. And I think when you start to look at violence and abuse is something that could happen to you or a loved one, then you're less likely to blame victims. You're also more likely to speak up and step up. You know, you saw this suicide. I lost my dad to suicide in 2009, and it was, you know, before that I never really thought about man and suicide and masculinity as a contributing factor. And it was only post that I started to join the dots up and start to make, you know, when Jackson asked me, you know, as a man, what are you doing to stop, you know, prevent violence? I thought, Wow, he's just he's hit something there big. And, you know, in the past, you know, yeah, I have. I been the defensive man. Yeah, I've been. I've learned stamina. I think we need it's like we need. We need more stamina from white people are in racism. We need more stamina from men around own sexism. And I think that that is that is key to do that, you know, key to helping men. So I think personalizing it. You know, I've met far too many mothers and fathers who have lost sons and daughters to to violence, and I don't want you to be that person. You know, I'll say, I don't want anybody else to be that person. Violence is preventable. It's not inevitable. We can. We can make a difference. 

You know, this is making me really think, Graham, about how the bystander conversation can really help all of us think about accountability for people using violence in the way we talk about it and also reducing blame that's often put on on survivors because, you know, part of, you know, having this bystander land is to ask the question if you're talking about domestic abuse situation. This conversation is who, who, who's intervened with him in his friend and family group. You know, what does that look like just by asking that question? So even if you're not in that active bystander role, but you're in a professional and you may be processing a case or discussing it that we will talk, and it will say for the other about just who's what's an intervention with it, what's what's been the interventions? And by mapping those interventions, you often see there's been too few or they haven't been successful or they've made things worse. And I think if if you expand that conversation away from this with a police called or order protection put in place to to, well, who in his friend group has spoken to him or who is dad, where's his dad's stance? And you know, where's his is? Is his friend's stance that it shifts everybody's mindset to remembering that there's all these possibilities out there and that if if the answer is no, we don't know or nobody said anything or they're all watching or this happened and you'll hear that story, what happened right in front of everybody and nobody stepped in, then that helps you have a better understand why he's so emboldened and why she feels so alone because she feels her pains invisible her. The hurt is invisible, so I think we all need to really up our game around the way we think not only act as bystanders, but think about this bystander intervention. 

So too, you know, you know, if you're a victim of abuse and you see passive bystanders, the research says that your trauma will be compounded by the fact nobody helped you. Yeah, and that's clear. But here's the thing even after an incident, somebody coming up to you, as I said before and saying, Hey, I saw what happened to you, that wasn't your fault. What do you want to do that can actually lead to lead to a more fulfilling school life that is bullying or abuse or workplace life as well? So it's so important that, you know, and you know, I often get told by and feedback, you know, just, you know, thanking you. Thank you for, you know, give me the witness. I can make a difference. Thank you for helping me overcome some of the challenges to intervention. You know, the world is full of moral rebels, and we think you know that your people want to know, you know, if I ask of you, my 100 people raise your hands. If you would like to think you would do something, everyone wants to put their hands up. But in reality, people are often doing nothing and feeling really guilty. They don't. They don't help. So, yeah, we give them the tools to be good friends, good colleagues. 

Ihave to I have to up the ante a little bit here because because I understand that, you know, we're trying to create these ecosystems of support around people, right? For good behaviors, for safe, connected good behaviors. I actually believe that professionals have a responsibility to understand how the ecosystem has supported that perpetrator and made that perpetrator feel that their behaviors are OK. And that includes pastors, mental health professionals, you know, law enforcement officers who may be misidentified that person and, you know, pat them on the back and drive them around the block and then dump them back at home. Those are all supportive actives. The purpose of that person's perpetration that basically acknowledges his legitimacy or their legitimacy in doing those behaviors. And we need to look at that and we need to acknowledge that in order for us to understand how emboldened they feel, how how deeply these behaviors have been embedded in their sense of I have a right to do this. This is part of my role as a man or this is part of my role as you know, my authority, I get to do this and we know that the more that somebody behaves that way and doesn't have any pushback, the more they feel that they're entitled to those behaviors. 

You know, it's making me think about, you know, I do this exercise where I ask people to think about what would somebody who has been abusive to if they were taking responsibility for the abuse to get them think about patterns of behavior? You know, I so I get out, I get a drink and I get violent with my partner and for of my kids. Well, if I'm responsible human being, I look at my drinking. I stopped drinking until I figure out what's going on. I say I was wrong. I don't control people's reaction to me that by doing that, you realize that the abuse is so much more than the actual violence. It's that everything that comes after it. And now imagining something here where you go and say, OK, so you've got you've got somebody who. Is arrested and they're in there. Their mom knows they arrested, their father, knows they arrested their brother, knows they arrested their best friend, knows they arrested. What would we want the perfect response to be from those people, you know, because I think if we can envision this, these moral rebels, these sort of this, this is an ecosystem of these bystander responses that that Graham you're talking so much about. One is it points out where, how, how horribly lacking it is, right? You know, which I think Ruth, to your point, is, but also points the way to the things you're discussing Graham or our ally guide, which says, Wait a second, you can actually we can influence and prevent violence by actually working with these other people. Right? 

So then you're this, you know, let's face it, whilst there's so many inhibitors to intervention. You know, the standard you walk past, the standard you accept, that's clear. You know, and I think that's that's what we I think society needs to look at the silence. You know, I've looked at violence as a public health issue for the last 11 years. To my view, what can even know and silence is the infection that keeps violence going. You know, when violence will continue in communities, it will evolve. That will change shape. It will, you know, escalate whatever it does until we have interruption and COVID interruptions for just knows the vaccine. And, you know, face masks and hand-washing. Then the introduction for violence and abuse and power is the act of bystander. Why wouldn't we want to engage? You know, I think the CDC in America talked about 70 percent of violent incidents, so parties witnessed violent incidents. You know, so this is 70 percent. Well, we can activate people to say, Hey, let's let's go here. Let's do something to stop things happening. Right? 

Well, I think that this has been a really wonderful conversation and it lands. It lands directly in, you know, safe and together's values and mission around accountability and change, behavior change. And I just love what you're doing. What messages would you have for agencies and communities who want to get more men involved in active by bystander, you know, programs and understanding how to interrupt that behavior and be what is what do you call a moral rebel? 

All right. Well, I love it. And it's Graham said. I was a I'm a rebel. I want that. I want a bumper sticker that says, moral rebel, you know? You know, and I put it on my mug, my coffee mug. Is that part of your your package for people who do training with there? 

You know, I think, you know, it's a great question and you know, it's, you know, preventable will happen when we when we all come together, you know, different organizations and agencies, policing, education, social work, whoever that may be. And for me, you know, you know, I think step one is find a shared agenda. You know, you know, and the shared agenda for me is healthy relationships. I think, David, you talked about that beforehand. It's about developing is finding that in schools, if we if we get relationships right in schools, learning goes up. If we get relationships right in society, violence comes down. So it's I think we all share that ability to to really promote healthy relationships. I think organizations remember as a Esta Soloff in the US many years ago did a great TED talk and she talked about invite not invite her to be invite men into conversations. So I think, you know, looking at ways, campaigns and strategies that bring men into the conversation as a solution. And when you do that, you force self inspection. You know, the bystander approach removes the victim perpetrator binary. And and we're all broke and we're all friends. We're all kind of what you do and you have that conversation is you? You force men to self inspect their own behaviors and attitudes. So I think that as well. So seeing men is a big part of the solution. It's really, really important. And meet men, you know, I think meet men, men with are, you know, I've met so many great people over the years. I met twenty four from a call to man in the US, and I asked him the question was 2012, when I was lebese of my work and I said, What's the best way to engage man? He said, I'm meeting with are, you know, and you know, there will be mistakes, there will be pushback and we need to find ways of understanding where that's coming from. You know, 8000 years of patriarchy ain't going to be there overnight. We need to really start to think about, you know, the conditioning that boys and men have gone through four generations doesn't excuse their behavior. I think that so I think, you know, meet member of the right as well so that this doesn't things for me. 

This last question may be redundant, but do you have anything else specific that you want to say to men who might be listening? You know, that's a direct kind of statement or suggestion or yeah, guidance. 

I'm a great believer in doing the knowledge. You know, it's what I think. Was it John Wooden you, one of your great American basketball coaches said, is what you learn after you think. You know what? All that counts. You know, you grow out there and learn about this stuff, don't you know? And being comfortable? That's good. You know, and handle the reality. What was that film, the film with Tom Cruise and Jack Nicholson, the 

that you can't handle the truth. The truth. 

And I think, you know, that knew the truth for me is the is the reality of men's violence. And you know, we're not we're not saying that all men are violent, but a lot of men. So a lot women are scared of men and we should be ashamed of that. As as men. 

Just right now, a lot of men are afraid of men to 

spy on Israel, where, you know, men and women, we share a common enemy that's abusive, violent men. So why wouldn't you want to get involved in this work? And you know, and I think you also speak to other men in your peer groups, find your friends and don't be surprised when people actually respect you talking about it. You know most men want most men are deeply disturbed with what they're seeing. Research suggests that the vast majority of men are against abuse and violence, and also men will respect other men if they speak up and challenge on the men's behavior. So you'll find your friends do that by, you know, talking about a case in the news, talking about something on the television, you know, you know, don't assume that people around you know what you think. Talk about it. When you do that, you do that. You become an ally to survivors and victims, but an ally also to other bystander, active bystanders 

and a moral rebel. Let's be clear about the moral mararaba. So will you give our listeners some information about how to reach you about your training programs? Anything else that will help them connect with you? 

Yeah, you know I can be found on on Twitter. Like most people nowadays, Graham underscore Golden, but I'll send you some information. My website, Graham Gould dot com has got some. It's got an email address that you can contact me where that is a website. And you see a lot of these things have been so busy this last year that fell, by the way. A little bit. Yeah, just, you know, the website's got my email address and reach out. Contact me and you'll get an idea of what I do trainings. I deliver where I work and we can. We can all make a difference. 

And even though we're speaking to you in Scotland, I believe now you working all over the world, you're working in the UK, you work in the United States of these. And so just really kind of make people aware that you're you're you're available for connection support and engagement from all over the world, I would imagine. 

Yeah. The world's a small place. Just know, you know, and I think we can we can connect. I do a lot of online work. I do. I'm doing some work in the Caribbean just now with the United Nations, UN women doing some work. I've got some interest in Chile for all places doing the police, the law enforcement, of course they are doing bystander work. So, yeah, you know, open for any discussion. 

All right. It's wonderful. Ma'am, thank you so much and thank you for being here. And we're going to wrap up here and just remind people that in addition to Graham's resources, that our Ally Guide and our Tools to change toolkit, which are up on our website and are free, are really a great resource in the same space. You know, I talked to survivors, if you know somebody whose or you where they're being abused and then how to create a safe, strong network for men who are trying to not be violent. So just just as you know, we're really trying to create this conversation and make this happen. So. So we're wrapping up another show. I always get so energized by doing this, and I don't make you super excited, but I mean, you get energized. It's an act now. It's labeled in my mind as Americanism, you know, and if 

you want to see our resources, you can go to our website, which is safe and together. Institute dot com or Academy Dot Safe and together institute dot com for trainings. And I do believe that we still have the officer involved Domestic Violence Summit up, which which Graham presented out, so you could see some of his work there as well. And I'm restraints. Mandel, the e-learning, communications and strategic relationship manager at Safe and Together Institute. 

And I'm David Mandel, the executive director of the Safer Together Institute. And if you like this podcast, please share it. Yes. Follow us. We're on Twitter. I gave my handle earlier, so there's at Safe Together is our Our Institute Twitter feed. Mine is at David G. Mandel Mines 

at Survivors' Strong three and and 

we're out and we're out.