Partnered with a Survivor: David Mandel and Ruth Reymundo Mandel

Season 6 Episode 4: The Paradox of Proximity: Understanding Domestic Abuse in Rural and Remote Communities

• Ruth Reymundo Mandel & David Mandel • Season 6 • Episode 4

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In this episode, David and Ruth speak with Dr. Annie Donaldson about her groundbreaking research examining domestic abuse in Scotland's rural, remote and island communities. Dr. Donaldson, an honorary research fellow at the University of Strathclyde and longtime expert in gender-based violence, shares insights from interviews with survivors and professionals about the unique dynamics of domestic abuse in small, interconnected communities.

Key topics include:

  • The "paradox of proximity" - how physical isolation combines with close social connections to create unique challenges for survivors in rural areas
  • How community connections can be both supportive and entrapping for survivors experiencing domestic abuse
  • How perpetrators exploit small community dynamics and relationships to maintain control
  • The incredible protective efforts of survivors, including maintaining children's routines and wellbeing despite multiple forced moves
  • The impact of the Safe & Together Model in helping professionals challenge victim-blaming attitudes and better support survivors

Dr. Donaldson discusses how traditional social work approaches focused solely on "problem-solving" often miss the emotional realities and strengths of survivors including: 

  • Validating and building on survivors' existing protective efforts
  • Recognizing how historical distrust of authorities impacts help-seeking
  • Using technology and remote options to increase accessibility

This episode provides vital insights for any professional working with survivors in rural, remote or close-knit communities while highlighting the universal dynamics of entrapment that transcend geography.

Resources:

Now available! Mapping the Perpetrator’s Pattern: A Practitioner’s Tool for Improving Assessment, Intervention, and Outcomes The web-based Perpetrator Pattern Mapping Tool is a virtual practice tool for improving assessment, intervention, and outcomes through a perpetrator pattern-based approach. The tool allows practitioners to apply the Model’s critical concepts and principles to their current case load in real

Check out David Mandel's new book "Stop Blaming Mothers and Ignoring Fathers: How to transform the way we keep children safe from domestic violence."

Visit the Safe & Together Institute website

Start taking Safe & Together Institute courses

Check out Safe & Together Institute upcoming events

David Mandel:

and we're back back, we're back.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel:

Hi there hello, we're not in the same place at the same time.

David Mandel:

Well, we're on the same time but we're not in the same place.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel:

if you same time, we're on the same time, but we're not in the same place.

David Mandel:

If you could see us. We're in two separate places, so you couldn't see us.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel:

But we can see each other, so it's all good, okay.

David Mandel:

What are we doing here? This is Partner with Survivor. I'm David Mandel, CEO of the Safe and Together Institute.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel:

And I'm Ruth Ramundo and I am the co-owner and the Chief Business Development Officer.

David Mandel:

And we are joining you from Tuscarora land, piscataway land, here in Maryland in the United States. I'm visiting my mom and family, which is really a good thing for me to be doing, and Ruth is on Masako and tungstus land and we just want to honor the traditional owners of the land, any indigenous people, past president, any elders who are listening, emerging elders and just, uh, you know, just acknowledge so important, I think, always, but these times kind of really to be able to speak about what is real, what's happened, what is happening, and and just really speak those realities. So this is important for us to do land acknowledgements as part of our show, and today's show is about land in some places, about place in some ways. Right, ruth, you know we're talking about place, we're talking about community and we're talking about the unique dynamics and we're going to be in a moment talking to an expert from Scotland about place-based issues around domestic abuse. But I just want to say to our audience, which is international, that while we're talking about rural Scotland, we could be talking about rural Australia, new Zealand, united States, we could be talking about faith communities.

David Mandel:

This is about dynamics of small groups or places that are closely connected and I think a lot of the models that people use and hold in their mind for service delivery, for connection, are based on large urban areas in many ways and in fact I remember one of my professors when I was going through my master's program talking about all the injunctions around dual role relationships that are in the mental health field were based on urban areas where you didn't have to have intimate relationships or overlapping relationships with people.

David Mandel:

You could be working with somebody you'd never see outside of work. But if you're a therapist or a mental health provider who's setting, you're living in a small town or community, you're going to be at the ball field, you're going to be at the sporting event, you're going to be part of the same group, you're going to be going to the same church, and so this rigid concept of professional and personal, professional world and service world and community, it just doesn't exist in a lot of the worlds. It doesn't make sense and I think we're really going to do a deep dive. I don't know, ruth, if you want to say anything about just sort of this, this larger issue, before we go over to our guest.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel:

Well, I'm really excited to talk with Dr Annie Donaldson about this topic, and one of the reasons is because, though her research may be centered in place and isolation, the reality is is that isolation, and that ecosystem of isolation that occurs through domestic abuse, is really prevalent not just out in rural areas, but can also be prevalent in those areas in the city as well. It depends on the community that you're attached to, and so I feel like the conversation about entrapment through isolation is pretty much a universal concept that can be applied across regions, it doesn't matter where we are. So it's a very important topic, and with that, do you want to read Dr Donaldson's bio?

David Mandel:

Yeah, I'm very excited. So we've got Dr Annie Donaldson with us today and I'm going to start with the end of her bio. You know she's a historian, a journalist and has written an oral history of domestic abuse in post-war Scotland, which I think is really unique and special. She's an honorary research fellow, school of Social Work and Social Policy, university of Strathclyde, feminist scholar, researcher and writer specializing in domestic abuse and gender-based violence. She's got all sorts of credentials was the project lead on the Equally Safe and Higher Education Project and is co-author of the Equally Safe and Higher Education Toolkit and of three rapid reviews of Scottish Further and Higher Education Institutions' responses to gender-based violence on campus. And she's a co-author of online learning resources. She's a local, was a local authority violence against women lead and service manager and has been working in this field of violence against women for over 30 years, which, annie, you know. You just come into this conversation with such a wealth of experience and diverse experience, and so welcome to this partner with Survivor.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

Oh, thank you so much. It's really a pleasure to be here and blushing.

David Mandel:

We're happy to make you uncomfortable in constructive ways like that, where we say nice things about you. So we're going to jump in you. You did some some really important research and you interviewed uh 24 uh survivors and professionals that have got that right uh, who were in scotland's rural, remote and island areas. So this would be right in western scotland, up up the coast, and it's beautiful. You haven't been there. You know isle ofle of Skye, you know you know all sorts of places there that are so in the Western Isles is really amazing and, and you know you talked about their experience and this is this is grounded research. You talk to them, you listen to them. You, you met with them. Can, can you talk to us about what initially drew you to this intersection of domestic abuse and geography? But I know it's more than geography Can you talk about?

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

that Absolutely. I think most a lot of research that's been done into domestic abuse tends to be focused on cities and urban areas. You know, and you know there's a wealth of that and I think that there's a growing field of research looking at domestic abuse in rural, island, remote areas and there's been quite a lot of work going on in Australia and North America but there hasn't really been much in Scotland and we have, as you've described, some vast areas of land. There's lots of really really open land, beautiful land in Scotland and there's begun to beautiful land in Scotland and there's begun to be an interest in that. And there's a couple of colleagues in Robert Gordon University in Aberdeen who've been doing research in the Northern Isles and the northeast of Scotland.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

So they were doing that, looking at responses, and this piece of research for me was very much grounded in women's experiences of domestic abuse and also looking at professional responses. So it was there was a gap in a research field and it was about looking at what it was like living and with domestic abuse in these areas and what it was like for survivors but also what it was like for people working and trying to support women. So it's essentially about trying to get more information about what it's like for survivors, but also what it was like for people working and trying to support women. So it's essentially about trying to get more information about what it's like, because we kind of know quite a lot about what it's like in Glasgow or Edinburgh the cities and the bigger towns but these remote and rural areas we didn't know so much. So that was the kind of trigger for this.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel:

That is so important to understand the diversity of experience, both from a geographic position but also from a community based and ecosystemic position, and I would love for you to explain to the listeners about the paradox of proximity, the concept that you raised in your research. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

Certainly, Well, it is a paradox, because in that proximity would suggest you know everybody living close to each other, but in a rural, more diverse, more dispersed community, that would seem a bit, you know, that doesn't make any sense. But actually even people living in very dispersed communities there's a proximity there as well. So it's kind of embedded within the expanse of the areas, if you like. So if you take, for instance, a small village or a small town, you know they make that small town might be somewhere quite far away from you know, urban centres, say, or anywhere else, but within that people are very closely knit, you know. So within the, the distance from anywhere else, people are.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

And I don't mean to suggest that urban areas are the centre of everything, because quite often in Scotland we're people in the central belt, which is the belt that runs across between Glasgow and Edinburgh, that a lot of policies and politics are very much focused on those areas and the other areas tend to get neglected. But we're not saying remote from there, but we're kind of remote anyway. So you can be living on an island and you might be in a very remote part of that island. So I think the idea was that although we're talking about areas that are quite far away from each other and they're quite at a distance.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

The paradox is that they are very close-knit communities as well. So I think that's what I'm trying to say. So that's the paradox. It's like they are, they might be living. I'm thinking of areas where there's dotted little houses, dotted all over crofts, that kind of thing. But you know, they come together in the local pub, they might come together for the local animal market, that kind of thing, and they all know each other. So there's a closeness and a proximity within these ever dispersed communities.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel:

So that's that's really like the paradox, and, and I think that that has an effect and an impact if someone's living with domestic abuse. Proximity shows up behaviorally or working with victim survivors when it's supportive and when it's entrapping. What those two, what those two polarities look like?

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

in that and I think that's that tension is definitely something that I found because, on the one hand, women described to me how their communities are very supportive and close and if you needed something, you know you could go to your neighbour and because you know each other, you can rely on help. The other thing is that a lot of the women described to me and the workers because they live in these communities as well, so they're very closely connected in a way that in a city it's more diluted. You know communities are. There are family networks, social networks, sporting networks. You know women talked about their partners in the football team and they played in the same football team as the local policemen. So there's lots of networks which operate, which can be very supportive and which give the communities their roots. You know their community roots and it goes back, give the communities their roots. You know their community roots and it goes back in history, because families, you know, are very connected and in these communities a lot of the times you do get incomers coming in, but let's leave them for aside for a moment.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

But so those close connections make the strengths of a community, but if you're living with domestic abuse, then the other something else that applies is that applies in just about every situation of domestic abuse is something that I've described in my history work as family secrecy and family privacy. So you don't really talk about what's going on in your family. I'm sure this is the same everywhere. I'm sure this is the same. It's like what? Sure this is the same. It's like what goes on behind closed doors. Even if it's not violent and abusive, it's private. So family stuff is private, but that's so. That's a very strong thing everywhere. So if you're living in a close-knit community, the chances are you don't want to tell your pal because she's married to your husband's pal, you know. So there's, it becomes, there's barriers there within a closely knit community.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

So that that makes the isolation and it did in the case of the women I spoke to. It made it much, much worse, so that they were able they weren't able to talk about it. So that was difficult for them able to talk about it. So that was difficult for them. And it was also difficult for them to access services, because if they walk into the local office, everybody knows that's the local office so they can see where they're going. And this isn't my research, but a story I heard from my colleague's research was that a woman living on an island because it was a small island, the police officer had to go in disguise and meet the woman as if they were going for a walk in order to have the conversation. So you're very visible.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

So that's the other thing about these communities. Everybody can see what's going on and there are lots of stories which I can tell you where that became a risk for women, particularly after they'd separated, but where you're living with abuse, your children are playing with people you know your friends' children, and so it's very, very close knit where everybody is and that makes it really difficult to disclose. So that would be the first thing I would say is that it can be really helpful if you do have someone you disclose to. But on the other hand, it might be kind of risky because you're then bursting that.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

You know that family privacy and you and one woman told me that you know everybody thought they were the dream couple and that their life was just. You know everything on the outside was fantastic 't. She couldn't tell anybody about it because that would burst that bubble and that would bring shame on her. As we know, that's what happens. So, yeah, so I don't know if I've answered your question, but these are some of the things that kind of came up in terms of that proximity and the kind of tensions between what's good about it and what's not so good about it or what might be harmful or risky to actually go outside and seek help.

David Mandel:

It's really interesting, you know listening to you, because the role of course of control, the understanding of course control is so important here, obviously, that you can't just think through an incident-based lens, you have to think through an entrapment lens, like Ruth said earlier, a deprivation of liberties, because you're painting a picture with words and with your research.

David Mandel:

That's so vivid for me, which is this idea I could be if I'm a survivor living in an isolated farm, you know, or someplace, and nobody can hear me if I'm screaming, um, I'm dependent. If the car gets taken or the phone gets taken, there's no other way. I can't walk, or I need to walk kilometers to get help to talk to anybody. So again, if I'm a city, I can go down the street, I can walk an apartment building, I can walk these people. So this, this, this isolation that's geographic and maybe technological and otherwise, and then also, at the same time, there's this web of people who may be dangerous to you as well, you know, if you step outside of your home or you try to reach out or share that. So for me, coercive control is so present in your story.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. And that idea of one woman said to me she said she was tweeting about during COVID. She says I was isolated during COVID, but I was isolated anyway, you know. So there's actually a triple isolation occurred during COVID, but with COVID in a rural or a more isolated area, you've got a double isolation, because you're isolated within the home by the abuser and you're isolated, as you describe, in your community because and those are some of the things you mentioned about transport, about access to, you know, communication you know no car, you know no buses, a lot of them aren't. There's no trains? Well, there are trains, but you know, within these, a lot of them aren't. Um, there's no trains? Uh, well, there are trains, but you know, within these, a lot of these areas there's, there's not a train service. So public transport is limited.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

But in a paradox to that, if you live in an island, you depend on public transport because you have to get a ferry, whether you've got a car or you might need an airplane, you know. So those make it getting out is difficult. That was another thing you know, particularly for women living on islands, it's like people can see, and if your ex is a skipper on the ferry or works on the ferry and you've moved to another island or another, you know. So there's a lot of intelligence can be passed around within these very close-knit networks that can make sure that a woman is not as isolated as she might want to be, particularly afterwards. You know, if she's separated from her husband she can't really get away because somebody will see her. So I'm talking about post-separation, so there is a difference. But the difficulties of living with abuse in an isolated area become kind of compounded when you move out.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel:

I would like to dive down into flipping some things on their head, because I hear very clearly the value of community cohesion. Humans value community cohesion and especially in areas where they have felt that they have had unfair over, you know, engagement by governments or authorities who were harmful to their families, were colonizing of their people, had historical injustices perpetrated upon them, that this sense of clannishness, of wanting to protect our communities, our families from that invasion, then becomes the ground and focus of what makes a strong community, when in reality what makes a strong community is that we take care of the rights and liberties and safety of our families and our community and we prioritize that. We center that. So instead of centering that silence which feels like it brings shame or brings government focus to our families and I have a lot of empathy for that I don't assume that government actions upon our families are just, are right. I think we have to constantly guard against that assumption because of the way that many people have been treated and I'm very aware of particularly Scottish history in this regard as well.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel:

So I think that for me, I would love to challenge the belief that protectionism and silence is the protective behaviors of a healthy community and family system and ecosystem, rather than centering and prioritizing behaviors, relationships, interactions, connections that support and nourish our protection, our safeties, our rights, our ability to live without harm, without abuse, without removal of our liberties, even in our own families. That is so important that we extend that protection, strength and permission to our own families, rather than enclosing ourselves and saying that we're going to entrap people who disclose problems in our communities, violence in our communities, crime in our communities. That we're going to pivot ourselves to focus on the people who are using those behaviors, who are using those behaviors. Instead of shaming the woman who's getting on the ferry to escape domestic abuse, we're going to look at the person in the community who's causing those problems and we're going to say my friend, you are not living up to your duties to our families and communities. Let us help you to do better. And really I think that that that is, that is some of the heart of that that mobilizing of coercive control in these closed communities that feel protective of themselves because of historical or perceived government incursion into their communities and harm, trauma, abuse. Absolutely, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

Yeah, I think I mean at the heart, as you were talking there. I mean I totally agree with you. But what I would say is the framework, the kind of analytical framework that I use for this research, and I also used it, adapted it from my oral history work and it was. I described it as an ecological risk framework and it's based on some work that's been you know, it was done in the 90s but it's a useful framework and it centres the individual within their community, within their society, within the culture of their community and the state, if you like. So it's like the individual's in the middle and it goes out from there. And I think that what you're talking about is the, the wider cultural aspects of that. So, whilst a person's in their own home let's say a woman, she's she's in her home, there's abuse going on there and it's all. What I found was it? It mapped entirely onto the power and control wheel, which most people will be familiar with, all those aspects of abuse. So the abuse is the same as happens everywhere else, pretty much. But what we're getting is an additional layer of problems, if you like, or challenges, shall we say that is related to the community and the culture of that community that is related to the community and the culture of that community.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

So my original, my historical research looked very, very deeply into patriarchal culture because I had a whole big framework that I used to try and assess just how patriarchal the society was and I used that for this research and I found that it entirely was. So it was still very patriarchal in the sense that the patriarchal family continues and it'll continue in the States. It continues as a model in most societies nowadays, but with women's equality it's kind of changed a bit and adapted itself to the current realities, but that model remains the same and it puts the man at the top, you know the male provider. That is still the dominant form, even if the woman's equally working and providing and all that is culturally it still operates. I and it's it was still operating.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

In this research that I did, I could see, I could see in the individual, uh, the stories that I heard, I could see it in the, the descriptions that they had of the local community, and it's linked to this family secrecy, family privacy idea, so that you must retain the patriarchal family is kind of the thing. And it then bleeds into community responses to domestic abuse. Because what I found was in my original research and still in this current research, what I described as working patriarchy. So the social work system not entirely, but there were still elements of the working patriarchy. So that's what I found in the post-war work that I did for the research into post-war period.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

But there are still lots of remnants of that and that's where you get the failure to protect the woman's responsibility, to protect the children from the man's abuse and all of that that the Save and Together model talks about. So it's the culture of that and these attitudes are very, very hard to shift and I would maybe talk about this later. But the figures for domestic abuse in Scotland continue to rise. It's not going away. Men continue to be abusive to their wives and children. We read about them in the papers, the big cases, but we know from work in the field that it continues and the violence continues. The coercive control continues, even though we've legislated against it in Scotland. So that's the problem. So these abusive men hang on to their patriarchal benefits, if you like, and the rights that they have, and you know that better than I do.

David Mandel:

You know, it's something that I've been thinking about, you know is connecting up here, which is that our risk factor frameworks are that are used in a lot of our systems.

David Mandel:

In Scotland there's a very robust multi-agency risk factor frameworks and applications and in my experience, those risk factors I'm talking about generally, not just in Scotland are still very much based on a physical violence, lethality, risk for recidivism, physical violence model, and what you're pointing us to is something I agree with, which is in the context of coercive control. Your risk assessment needs to include factors that increase entrapment, and it could be culture of secrecy, it could be a failure to protect culture and child protection, it could be a family court system that really doesn't understand domestic abuse, it could be a criminal court that doesn't get involved, or the fact that there's family members or local mates who are on the police force. That's a, you know, that's a true risk factor assessment framework based on coercive control, which sounds like your research is, if I'm right, and is pointing in the same direction or similar direction yeah, I would say so.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

I mean you've you've expressed it in and much more kind of operational terms in terms of risk assessment. But yeah, there are risks, you know, because I heard a story of you know a woman calling the police. The police turned up, knew her husband. I said, oh, he's no that kind of guy.

David Mandel:

That's it and that's the end. That's the end of the. That door is closed to her now All further action. Yeah, right, but it's closed to her both. No-transcript. That's the police officer responded as your husband's mate and there's even more connections between the child protection agency and that police force. And blaming her for not leaving or taking more action is really blaming her for a failure of systems.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

It's basically blaming her for being abused. Actually, because in my history I mean, I talk about my historical research but there are so many parallels and we'll talk about continuity and change later but the things that are staying the same and the things that have continued, but these things continue. You know that these attitudes are so deeply rooted and this is why I was talking earlier on about culture. You know the discourses, the attitudes, the behaviours. These are all linked and coercive control is now criminalised in Scotland, thank goodness. But the threshold for that, you know it's like. You know, it's early doors for early days.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

For the legislation it was 2018. So more and more cases are coming through, but that's when it's proved to be criminal. But what I'm concerned about a lot of the cases that I'm talking about, like the ones that Safe and Together workers will see, is that these are not criminal. These are people that are behaving really badly towards their wives and partners and children, and how do you intervene there? So the coercive control, while we got there with the legislation, because of our understanding as all the feminist work, all the work that everybody's done to show this is abusive, it's like that still hasn't percolated down, and I think I saw that in the.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

You know the tales of people's responses, the experience from practitioners it's like minimizing it and they're still incident focused, a lot of them. They're still incident focused in their well. They never hit you, so it must be fine. You know that kind of them. They're still incident focused in there. Well, they never hit you, so it must be fine. You know that kind of thing. So we're talking about a level that is sub-criminal. It's not criminal. You know we're talking about child protection systems, social work systems. It's not criminal, it's civil stuff and underneath that there's a lot to do with culture and attitudes. I think that needs to be a lot of. That's where the work has to be done. I think in challenging men who are abusive, because a lot of workers don't yeah, I, I.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel:

I feel like one of the the common threads that runs through a global failure and it is a global failure. It's not. It's not particular to scotland, it's not particular to Scotland, it's not particular to the United States, we see it everywhere we go is that we have a serious lack of information about the ecosystem of entrapment around victim survivors and we discount it, we ignore it and we contribute to it even in our policies, in our programmatic delivery systems and in the way that impediment because that community does not want to incarcerate that family's head of household or the person perceived as their head of household. They do not want to incarcerate their cousin, their mate, their friend, the person they're playing you know, football with. They do not want to do that.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel:

So if all of the actions that we have available to us are simply focused on arrest and incarceration, we've already created, we've created an impediment to assisting people appropriately, behaviorally, before they get to the place where they've harmed a child or they've killed their partner or they've killed themselves, right and their children and their children.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel:

It's simply not acceptable the way that we have created the groundwork of intervention for families. It is antithetical to engagement on a lot of levels for these rural communities and for people who are deeply connected to each other. It doesn't focus on the perpetrator's responsibility towards their community, towards their family, towards the integrity and the cohesion of that community, and in us participating in silencing victims who are asking for help, not just for themselves but for their children and for their partner who is abusive, we do a grave injustice to our communities, to our families, and we ourselves are contributing to the things that we say that we are trying to solve, and that is not. That's not okay. We need to do better, all of us. We need to change attitudes and delivery systems and focus and and I love that your research is pivoting us towards those communal attitudes and impediments, because that's real, actionable information that we can use to help keep people safe.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

And I think you're right. I think it certainly chimes with. What I found is that the problem is the abusive person. They're the problem, but the way society and systems and services and all the rest of it have evolved over time actually haven't changed that much. But that's another thing. But they've changed a lot, but not as much as they probably could have. But they're always looking in the wrong place and that's why I think Saving Together together is really helpful, because it looks like you talk about pivot and don't you talk about. Let's not look at her, let's look at him.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

He's the cause of the problem and I think in a community, because of the history and because of the, the long-standing traditions and it happens in cities too. But you know, I'm like we're talking about rural areas because of the history, which might be compounded by more close-knit communities like you're talking about abroad, other countries that becomes more difficult because the male still dominates, the male position is still the supreme one, and that is to me that's just the way patriarchy operates. It's a system with a guy at the top, so his opinions, his, his views, his wishes, and he's got the strength and the abuse of power to actually enforce that, and that's what we're dealing with and, whilst it might not be criminal, what he's doing, like I've been saying, like you're saying, you need a lot of other things to be going on to actually show him that what he's doing is damaging, it's not what he wants to be. Going on to actually show him that what he's doing is damaging, it's not what he wants to be. If you want to be a really good dad, don't do this stuff, you know. So it's a huge shift in mind and I think a lot of work needs to go there as well.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

And that's, I suppose, what the workers who I spoke to, who are really working very hard to implement the Safe and Together model that's the work they're doing. They're trying to convince their colleagues that this is the way to do it. They're trying to convince women, because women were not always really, they were still a bit afraid of a domestic abuse-informed approach, like a MARAC, for instance, a multi-agency risk assessment conference which you may know about. I don't know if your listeners would know, but it's a way of assessing a risk in a in a multi-agency way that leads to um actions by different agencies to protect the women and focus on the guy's behavior.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

But women weren't you know? Women were afraid to be um, allow their case to go to my. Who's going to know about this? One woman said who's going to know about this? Who are you going to tell what's going to happen to this? One woman said who's going to know about this? Who are you going to tell what's going to happen to me and my children? So even a domestic abuse informed system can be. Because of the history of all this stuff and women's deeply embedded fear of social work. They still are afraid, even when it's badged as something better and the workers are all great and they are. But even then, then women were reluctant. So there's. So still, these long-standing attitudes and practices are still there.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel:

Yeah, yeah, and and you know, I just want to acknowledge that that a lot of that fear is grounded in patterns of history and and that's real we have to we we have actually as professionals respect that fear and explore it, be curious about why it's there, be curious about how we can help that person to feel safe if we're going to step in in a multi-agency way to review their case, in in a multi-agency way to review their case, and if we know that those historical imbalances and that trauma is there and that not only that, the trauma of being revealed to the community very high and the fear of response, of being ejected from your community, from your social circles, from your church circles, from your extended family circles for disclosing this violence to a government authority and those who have not factor in how those rural communities become self-protective against official and government intervention because they feel that they've been poorly treated by those authorities and that they've been regulated or harmed in ways that take their children.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel:

And that fear continues to this day. And our memory is long. We do not forget. In fact I remember, you know Scottish, in Scotland, if you go to one of the locks, there's the well of the seven heads. That marked a historic event that was 200 years earlier.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel:

And right there, in Latin and 17 different languages. They said we will never forget. So just remember, these communities do not forget that type of incursion, invasion, unfair treatment, and so the actions of the professional, the words of the professional, the words of the professional, the stance of the professional, the understanding of the terrain of the professional is vital to engagement with that victim survivor, yeah and history.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

I would say, you know, an understanding of history which lives in collective memory is very powerful. An understanding of history which lives in collective memory is very powerful and, um, you know, like, even in some communities in Glasgow, uh, there's a huge mistrust of the police, and that's got historical roots and that's got it's very rational. You know, there's lots and lots of reasons and there are still all the communities that don't want to go. Think about Northern Ireland, for instance, during the troubles, women who experienced domestic abuse during that time, where did they go? Where did they go?

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

If you were a woman in the nationalist community, a Catholic community, would you call the police. So you know, and I absolutely get what you're saying about First Nation communities and all the rest, absolutely, absolutely that fear which is much more profound and present actually there than it might be in, say, a Highland community, for instance, that is, you know, it's justifiable, it's completely justifiable. So I think, and of course I would always say, an understanding of history is very important to anybody. But I think, working in communities, traditional communities or communities where history is still very much alive, yeah, it wouldn't go wrong, would it so let's talk a little bit about transformation.

David Mandel:

You reference in your work and there's a blog post on our website. We'll put the link in. You know, link to your research. You talk about the intersection of the geographic area, these impediments like failure to protect practice and other things, and then Safer Together. You mentioned this earlier about practitioners trying to enact Safer Together and then even getting some resistance from survivors. Can you talk a little more specifically about what you saw about the footprint of Save it Together on the practice of professionals and what they were doing with it and how hopefully it was helping or the limitations of that help?

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

Well, certainly a lot of people had done the training and they completely got it. So there was a variety of professionals working across criminal justice, social work, women's aid, you know, women's refuge services, specialist services. So there was a whole range of people, both workers and managers. There had been quite a bit of movement on that and there were some who hadn't experienced it. But what they realised when it was a helpful framework for them and it kind of explained a lot of the problems that they were maybe facing and it allowed them a solution to actually focus their energies and their practice in the right place. So it was welcomed. It was very much welcome because it thought right, this is what we think. And a lot of them you know a few of them were like domestic abuse independent advocates, which you'll know about that. There's quite a lot of them around and what they were finding was now they'd done the training and during COVID it was all. A lot of it was done online, I think.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

The domestic abuse informed practice. They became its advocates institutionally. So they were sitting in MARAC meetings and they were finding that people would say things and they would go what are you saying that? For that's nonsense. Oh, but look, she's got this and she's got that, but why do you think she's got these problems? And then they would. So they were actually doing a bit of on the job training and explanations and offering alternative ways of looking at things which seem to be working. So those people in these multi-agency environments were having quite a powerful effect. That's what I found.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

So that was even a small number of Safe and Together trained people were actually having quite an impact because they were then, as I say, the advocates for the method and this different way of looking at things and it was helping them to. It was giving them a basis, you know, an evidence base, if you like, and a kind of theoretical base and a practice base for saying the things that we're saying. And it was like some of them would say well, we've been saying this for years, but this gives us something solid that we can actually say, well, look, and it was supported. You know it's been supported in a lot of local authority areas in Scotland, so it's kind of legit, it's become legit and people are going all right. That's fine and I think if it's allowing engagement with women because of the way you work with women's strengths and you build on that and you focus in the right place, etc. Etc.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

I think you know, I think some women were although there was some a bit scared about MARACs and things. A lot of them really, really appreciated that domestic abuse, informed and, in your sense way of approaching practice, and it was really helpful to them and the workers were finding that it kind of, as I say, it gave them a rationale and it gave them a stronger basis for saying the things that they had they felt was true and they knew to be true. And even those working with perpetrators were able to challenge more and um. But that's, that was criminal justice, social work. So they're convicted guys, right, so that's. But even in the community, workers like the social workers, they were finding it really right, so that's. But even in the community, workers like the social workers, they were finding it really helpful.

David Mandel:

It's lovely to hear that and it's very consistent with what we've heard in other places in terms of people becoming champions and using the model to educate in real time, challenge real time. They're professional colleagues. I talk about fix hashtag, fix systems, not survivors, the idea that we have responsibilities. Ruth keeps talking about, as you're talking about, to fix ourselves as people involved with the system, and so we see that in Australia. We see that in other places where professionals really pick up the language, they use it and they use it in that immediate sense of hey, don't say that, wait a second, you're leaving him out.

David Mandel:

Can we talk about him as a dad? You know, I really don't believe she has any strengths, so can you talk a little bit about some of the unique or maybe not so unique strengths and protective efforts? You know, we know that Safer Together is meant to kind of break the back of the failure to protect approach and child protection and other spheres and move to a more partnering way of working, and part of that is that belief and experience that survivors are much more active in protecting themselves and their kids than we often give them credit for and recognize professionally. You brought some stuff out of your research? Can you talk about that?

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

yeah, sure, I think that that's I mean, that was a big section uh was women's protective qualities and and the things that they did. And to me, actually, they brought me to tears sometimes. And there's one woman in particular who, um, I used to quote in my, the webinar that I did for you is that she, despite all the horrendous things that had happened to her, she was now away from her abusive partner but she said I like to make a nice little snack for them and I like to have it all ready for them when they come in from school, and that really gives me pleasure. That that made me. That makes me feel really emotional.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

Um, and it's the day-to-day routines that even the women that were still with the partners they were describing. Most of the women I spoke to, in fact, all of them I spoke to were not with the partners anymore, but some of them had just left, not that long ago, within the last year, so they're talking from real kind of very immediate experience. But the way that they continued to get them to school. And a lot of the workers described this. One worker described a woman in a meeting, you know, in a social work and a child protection meeting case conference. She says she gets them to school. They're spotless, they're really well fed, they're really looked after, they go to all their clubs and all the rest of it and look at what she's experiencing and you're telling me that she's not able to protect her, you know. So those are the kind of stories and then from women themselves you know, about keeping their routines, making sure they got to football practice, making sure they got to school on time and also navigating the systems. You know even one woman who was actually she did have social work protection. She'd asked for it because she felt that she needed their protection and she was negotiating with them and the school so they were managing.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

They were managing the agencies in order to keep their children safe and to make sure their kids got a normal life and even after separation, a lot of them were giving I mean the efforts that they, the women, were going to to make. They were trying to make sure that the children had a relationship with their dad and they wanted him to be a good dad, you know. And they were going to all these really convoluted um uh arrangements about contact and and all you know the women had custody, but trying to make sure they had regular contact, not saying anything about the dad, not saying bad things about him, and actually working with the children and women's aid workers was one great example when they were helping her to have conversations with the children about their dad. She says I don't want to make him out to be a devil, and so how did you know? So she was learning how to have conversations with her children about their dad and I found that really, really powerful because you know, you wouldn't blame a woman for doing the opposite. But they never did. And they, they want the dads to be good dads, they want them to have a relationship with their children. And they, they want the dads to be good dads, they want them to have a relationship with their children and they just want the men to stop being violent and they will do everything. And the strengths I mean you talk about strengths and saving together. I heard them talking, I could hear them. They were on their knees, you know, financially, emotionally and physically sometimes, and everything was about the children and a lot of them actually sought support for their children before themselves. You know it was because of what was going on with the children that they actually went for help.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

And can I just tell you one little story. There was one woman and I was interviewing a lot of them on Zoom and this woman changed. She went, just give me a minute, I need to switch rooms. So I said, oh, look, that's a lovely room you're in, you know, lovely fairy lights. She said, oh, I'm in my wee boy's room and do you know? That woman had moved three times. She'd renovated and decorated three different houses because of the story and having to move and having to move, and I could see this beautiful room. I said that is beautiful. It was all hung with fairy lights and lovely posters and it was a beautiful color. That brought me to tears as well, because women just get up and they carry on for their children and for people not to recognize that. I just, I just don't understand that. I really don't understand it.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel:

It is so important that we're able to see people, that we're able to see the person who's being abused and their efforts and their strengths in the context of the violence and the abuse and the failures of the system and the community to properly identify the perpetrator and assist them. And it's so important for us to see perpetrators because they are the cause of all of this disruption, instability, harm, trauma, and they are teaching their children that these behaviors are acceptable relational behaviors and they are destructive. So they're saddling their children with these patterns of behaviors which will impact them, not just because they experienced them firsthand from their parent, but because now that's their context for relationship. So their relationships are going to be less functional, more dangerous, less stable because of the behaviors that they've been taught are acceptable by that parent.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel:

It's so important that we see communities. It's so important we see how communities respond to disclosures of domestic abuse when they're protective, when they're big, when they're small, when they're closed, when they're religious. It's so important for us to have that wide information and understanding of all of the factors happening on the ground for us to do our jobs in a way that has an impact, which keeps kids safe with their parent who's protective and hopefully also gives the parent who's an abuser the opportunity to change their behaviors and become a better parent, because that's what those children want most of the time from their parents. That's what they want. So I really can feel all that, annie, and if you had any sort of fundamental advice about how to see the big picture and how to respond to the big picture in these really isolated environments, what would it?

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

be. Just as you were talking there, it occurred to me that an awful lot of women that I spoke to had told me that it took them a while to realize that they were being abused. Okay, so there's something to be done there. About campaigns I mean, we had a very famous campaign in Scotland in the early 90s called Zero Tolerance. You've probably heard of it and that was the first time and it showed, you know, women had a false idea about who could phone up Women's Aid, for instance, you know, for shelter services. They thought you had to be in an emergency situation and needed rehousing. Right, there's not the only service that they offer. So for people to understand that they are being abused is something really important. So that's women, so that you know a lot.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

I didn't realize, I wasn't. I didn't because I wasn't being beaten and and you know I didn't think. You know, this is where coercive control is something that women, because it's so gradual and it doesn't people don't realise it as it's happening. So awareness of that, you know, make it more public that this is what this is and if this is happening to you, you know there's a red flag there and so. So that so I'm talking about the kind of cultural prevention because I think the prevention work in scotland has not been as good as it could be. Uh, there's, there's a, there's good resources for criminal, you know. Third stage, tertiary prevention, where there's criminal court mandated work and anna knows all about that. Um, but I think down in the first level, first, primary and secondary level secondary is good. Primary we're targeting not just young people but adults. Some of the men in my research were 62. In their second relationships there was guys in their early 20s. So this is all people, this is all guys need to be, you know. So prevention needs to be approached systematically. There's a kind of public health model of prevention which tells you that's a really, really helpful thing. But I think that for small communities, I think that be aware that your services need to be promoted in a way that can be accessible to folk living far away.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

So social media COVID taught us a lot about that and everything switched to the telephone and actually that worked really well. They didn't think it would, but it worked really well because women were able to have an appointment on the phone when it suited them, when he was away, if they were still in, you know. So it meant it was much more flexible and also online resources meant that there was a lot more training could happen. You know online conferences like this.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

So using media, social media, internet, web-based media is something that women found support from during COVID that they hadn't thought about. And also they a lot of them told me that they didn't want to go to their local area, but they phoned up the people or they contacted the people in the services in the next we would say, the next local authority area. So it might not be that it starts with the workers in your area, but make it possible for people to go across. Go across a border, say, maybe Thursday or whatever. So make it more accessible for people.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

And and helplines were good and online fora were really good as well. Women started to talk on fora and then realized, actually I am being abused because the chat you know. So I think the media could be exploited more and I noticed that that happened during COVID and it's something that could continue. Like the local services were much more active on social media than they had been before and were really, so a kind of media strategy or a communication strategy would be a really good thing as well, as you know, obviously implement safe and together. Right. Obviously implement the safe and together.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel:

Right, right.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel:

This is why isolation is used as a tactic universally to keep people from being aware that they have rights, that they're being abused, that these behaviors are unacceptable. And I just I want to put a real pin in what you just said, because oftentimes you know, people in the prevention industries really demonize things like the internet, but the reality is that a lot of victim survivors who are living in rural, isolated areas or are living in closed systems, closed communities that is, often cultural or religious communities where you cannot easily escape, because it's your whole support system, it's your whole familial system, it's your whole monetary system, it is your whole world that women in those communities are often learning that they are being abused because they have exposure on the internet to information, conversations with other people who tell them that those behaviors are not acceptable and that they have rights, that they have access to information. So it's really vital that we keep open those pathways and we learn how to communicate better with people. But for me, one of the things that I would love to encourage media to do is not just to communicate to victims. Actually is to communicate to the perpetrators as well, and the families and the communities and the religious leaders and say, hey, if you're seeing this, here are three actions you can do to support that person. If you are observing this type of behavior, here are a couple of things that you can approach the potential victim survivor with.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

Here are some questions that are safe here's how it's a kind of community let's sort of interrupt. It's a kind of community learning that has to go on. My background is also in adult and community learning, so it's like these are if you're going to um change, because we're talking about cultural attitudes and andours that come from those, so if you're going to change cultures, then that's a learning exercise and that has to be done, maybe in a communal way, but it has to be approached from that point of view and it has to be done in a way that doesn't scare people off but it's accessible and it makes them interested. Because who wouldn't want their community? Well, I don't know, I was going to interested because who wouldn't want their community?

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

Well, I don't know. You know, I was going to say who wouldn't want, who wouldn't want to get rid of these awful things in their community? Um, but depends on the community. I suppose some very strict patriarchal communities might consider challenging like that to be unacceptable. So that's that has to be navigated as well. So, yeah, that's a tricky one.

David Mandel:

I want to. I'm sitting here thinking about a lot of these things that you're both talking about and I realize you know, ruth, you, you have a cranky survivor persona. I don't know if I've ever brought out a cranky professional persona, but I feel like it's rising up and it goes back to where earlier. What gets me really cranky, gets me really fired up. And, annie, you were talking about the survivors who are doing things like making sure the kids' rooms are wonderful even though they've been forced to move three times by the abuser's behavior, or that story you said that really touched you, about the snacks, the little attention to the kindnesses and the well-being of children and the kids' experience of pleasure in the world and connection and meaning and care and how. For me and this is the cranky part it drives me up a wall that professionals don't value. That.

David Mandel:

And we don't value that, because we've been told if somebody's not bleeding, it's not a priority. We don't value that, and this is obviously the point of my book about stop blaming mothers and stop ignoring fathers, which is that we just expect moms to do those things. So therefore we don't see their value from the point of view of healing, stability, well-being, the energy it takes to do those quote-unquote mundane things in the context of abuse and disruption, like you pointed to, and so I get really fired up about this. And so, ruth, I'm introducing Cranky Professional alongside Cranky Survivor because it really does irritate me as a major failure. I really I don't know how to put it such a major failure in this area, because it means women don't get seen and validated for that work which is so critical. We don't make our job easier as professionals, make our job harder when we do that because we feel like we've got to act more, we've got to intervene more, we've got to remove kids. We've got to do this when we have really a person already there who has invested so much, and all they may need from us is a validating word or an appreciation or acknowledgement.

David Mandel:

I see how hard you're working, so for me, you know, your stories again resonate across my career, my experience, where survivors, mothers usually, who do those things, those behaviors are ignored, trivialized by systems, uh, um, not even seen.

David Mandel:

And they're the gateway. They're the gateway to the relationship, they're the gateway to the partnership, they're the gateway to her um, unwinding how she feels like she's a horrible mom and he's telling her that and she feels guilty and guilt and shame, and so we have such a doorway to just say, mom, that's amazing, that's incredible. That's, you know, what you said to her and what you appreciated, I'm sure, was so valuable. So so for me that that one of the things that kind of comes together on Safer Together is that's so critical to our partnering and, and I feel so passionate about it, because it is about one part of the equation, about unwinding gender bias as it lives in day-to-day social work, day-to-day care. It's not a theory on the shelf, it's about what you can do as a professional today to unwind gender bias and to actually make a real difference in people's lives.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

Yeah, absolutely, and I think that I mean I would describe that as a work in patriarchy. That's just the way it's always been done. But I think that also social work systems I don't know what it's like where you are, but I've seen a change in the way that social work. If you think about local authorities who run social work in our areas, it's all very outcome focused and that's fine, but it's a wee bit too mechanical for me and it's about solving problems. So I always think about things as problem focused and emotion focused. So what we're talking about here is solving the problem. This guy's abusive, the Waynes are getting hurt. Da, da, da, da da. We need to solve this problem. So that's the old way of doing it. What do we do? Take her out, you know. Take him out, you know. Make sure she does the X, y, z. So that's solving a problem. But what you're describing and I think what we would all like to see is a more emotion focused thing and it's not about that.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

Social workers or children's professionals should be mental health people, but they should recognise the value and the impact. What you were talking about, david, is about the emotional work of and women have always had to do all the emotional labour. I mean that's another thing. That's like you know, that's what women's job has been historically. It's changing but it's far too slow. So all the things that women do to run a home just without abuse, all the things that you know historically women have done to run a home that are invisible Housework's invisible until it's not done, you know, all these things are invisible. But the emotional side of that, the emotional labour that women do, is often not recognised and I think maybe there's something in there about the professionals not recognizing that either.

David Mandel:

Right and I think I would if I could respectfully offer I don't think it's an either or. I think the emotional work facilitates the problem solving. The emotional work in my experience means I get better information from her. We don't go over ground that she's already tried. If she feels more connected to me and more go over ground that she's already tried, if she feels more connected to me and more safe with me, she's going to tell me well, that won't work. For that reason I tried that and she might listen to me more when I've shown that I'm listening and validating when I say well, what about this?

David Mandel:

And my experience is that those problem solving and that emotional work and connection and validation go hand in. That's why we go with our partnering, you know, with you know, starts with validating, you know, you know, starting saying I understand that it's not your fault, you know. And then we ask her about his behaviors and we listen for her strengths and we validate the strengths and then from there you move into things like case planning and documentation, the practical parts. But it requires that foundation of that that I see you, I don't blame you for his behavior. I see his behavior for what it is. I see him as a source of the harm and within that framework, now we can have a relationship as the social worker or the IDVA around what next?

David Mandel:

How can I add value? Because if I can't add value, if I can't make it better, I have no business being there. I mean again, this cranky professional is saying if I can't add value, if I can't do better, if I can't help your situation improve, then I have no business being in your life Absolutely. And we shouldn't claim that we're helping when we're not. We shouldn't claim that we're the good guys when we're not.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel:

I like this cranky professional.

David Mandel:

You like cranky professional, I do like this cranky professional persona. Yes, yeah, I think this is going to come out more, but it's just.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

I think you're right, obviously, because what I was describing was I think the traditional professionals were more just concerned with the problem, and that's what I'm saying, that they were looking at the problem but they weren't bringing in that emotional domain. And I think that's the value of your approach, is that you bring both together. And you need it, because a woman does need a house, she does need problems solved, she needs him away, she needs this and that and the other, but she also needs the emotional stuff to be included in the problem solving. It all needs to be a piece. But what I'm saying is that I think a lot of professionals courts, family courts, social work they're very much focused on the problem solving in a kind of objective way, as if the woman and all the feeling and all that emotional stuff wasn't part of the equation.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel:

I call that emotional, that emotional stuff, the field of entrapment. Those emotions are arising because of fear and threats and threats of violence. Right, those are concrete realities. They're not just existing in the head of that victim survivor, they're real factors that are impeding her. So if she has fear about something, I would really encourage any professional to be curious, to ask questions about those fears.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel:

And this is why we created the Ally Guide, because we knew that not only would communities and family and friends need the words and the guidance to be able to navigate those really difficult questions, but also professionals need that guidance, especially in absence of their areas engaging with Safe and Together. So we created that free resource for them. So I'd really encourage anybody who's listening to this podcast to go in and download that resource from our website. It's helpful and it gives you the language, the words, the focus. It teaches you what is victim blaming language and what is not victim blaming language and it helps you to create that trust with that victim survivor that makes them aware that you're a person who's safe to disclose that information to, which is very important, especially in these communities that are very small.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel:

You really have to take time to create that trust. You have to let the survivor know how you're going to protect their information. You have to ask them about what their specific fears are for retaliation and what the pathways of that retaliation pattern has been right. So important to get that information. What was the name of that resource? That is the how to be an ally to a loved one experiencing domestic violence. It's a family and friends guide and it's right on our website. No-transcript.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

I would say that there is help out there and that it's possible to find it. And if you've got access to the internet, that would be a good place to start. And you know, so I'm not sure depending on your locality or whatever, but if you have a close confidence, I think. I think the main thing is to speak to someone or to find out more about your situation. So make that first step, because if you make that step, then the world will change around you and hopefully in your favor.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

But I think that the problem is that women don't disclose, for all the reasons that we've discussed. Right, the first step is to do that, but maybe there's a step before that about recognising that the behaviour you're experiencing in your life is maybe one where you're being abused. So I think that's, you know, try and look at what's happening to you and, if you're afraid, maybe talk to somebody about it. So I think that's a step, and I know it's not easy and I know there are all sorts of barriers to doing that, but it's the way, it's the only way, because living it in silence it's not the way either, and I know, we know lots of people do so. That would be the first thing, if possible and safe, then I would say reach out. Yeah, definitely.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel:

And what would you say to professionals who are working in these communities?

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

I would say to well, listen to what the woman's telling you and listen to what she's saying about what her fears are and if you're going to provide services to her, work with her to help you find what is the best way for you to support her, because she will know how to navigate her community and how to navigate her geography and how to navigate and it might be she has to come in a boat or whatever you know, so she will know her community better than you.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

Possibly you might live there, but I would always put the woman at the centre of it and listen to what she has to say and then you can bring all the resources and the training and the judgment that you've got as a professional to help solve that problem for her and, like we've been talking about, and also to get the you know to do the emotion and listen talking about, and also to get the um you know to do the emotion and listen. Just listen to her and acknowledge her strengths, acknowledge what she's doing and how important it is. It is important for the worker to do that. There's no question about it that's great.

David Mandel:

Thank you, uh, very much. Uh, we've been talking to and having a great conversation with dr annie donaldson about her work with rural communities and about the paradox of proximity and the strengths and amazing protective efforts of survivors in those communities. So, dr Donaldson, thank you for your time today.

Dr. Anni Donaldson :

It's been a pleasure, my pleasure. Thank you so much for inviting me.

David Mandel:

It's been great and you've been listening to Partner with Survivor and I'm the cranky professional, david Mandel, ceo of the Safe and Together Institute.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel:

And I'm Ruth Ramundo and I'm the cranky survivor. And if you want to get more information about training for resources, please go to our website, safeandtogetherinstitutecom, and on that website you can find the Family and Friends Ally Guide. You can also find a Choose to Change Guide, which is centered on assisting men who are using violence to help them to disrupt that violence. And also you can go to our virtual academy, which is academysafeandtogetherinstitutecom, where you can engage in learning specific skills and practice skills around the Safe and Together model in order to create domestic and abuse-informed practice in your systems and your community partner systems. So we thank you so much for joining us and we're out.

David Mandel:

We're out.