Partnered with a Survivor: David Mandel and Ruth Reymundo Mandel

Season 6 Episode 12: Power and Pulpits: The Truth About How Religious Leaders Groom Adults

• Ruth Reymundo Mandel & David Mandel • Season 6 • Episode 12

Share episode

Send us a text

When churches call clergy sexual abuse “moral failings” or “affairs,” they obscure the truth: Predatory pastors groom adult congregants using tactics that mirror coercive control and intimate partner violence.

Counselor and researcher Jaime Simpson joins us to dismantle myths about consent in faith settings, drawing from her study Broken, Shattered & Spiritually Battered: Groom Pastors Who Prey on Adult Congregation Members. Focusing on evangelical and Pentecostal communities in Australia, her findings reveal systemic grooming—romantic, therapeutic, and spiritual deception—layered with isolation, boundary violations, and theology-based coercion and systematic collusion with perpetrators to hide their criminal behaviours and shield them from accountability with the use of spiritually based forgiveness rituals. 

Simpson shows how purity culture, male authority, and loyalty to leadership prime congregations for collusion, silence, and exploitation, while institutions minimize sexual violence but act swiftly on financial crimes. Her message to survivors: “You weren’t complicit. What happened to you was not your fault.”


Now available! Mapping the Perpetrator’s Pattern: A Practitioner’s Tool for Improving Assessment, Intervention, and Outcomes The web-based Perpetrator Pattern Mapping Tool is a virtual practice tool for improving assessment, intervention, and outcomes through a perpetrator pattern-based approach. The tool allows practitioners to apply the Model’s critical concepts and principles to their current case load in real

Check out David Mandel's new book Stop Blaming Mothers and Ignoring Fathers: How to Transform the Way We Keep Children Safe from Domestic Violence.

Visit the Safe & Together Institute website.

Start taking Safe & Together Institute courses.

Check out Safe & Together Institute upcoming events.

David Mandel:

and we're back, we're back.

Ruth Reymundo :

Hi, hey there, how you doing today maybe I shouldn't ask you today that that's it. You're here, we're doing this Relevant topic.

David Mandel:

Relevant topic?

Ruth Reymundo :

Yeah, exactly, so anyway well, welcome to Partnering with a Survivor. I'm David.

David Mandel:

Mandel, the CEO of the Safer Dealer Institute, and I'm Ruth Ramundo-Mandel and I am the co-owner and chief business development officer. And today we're going to be talking with Jamie Simpson and I'm going to read her bio in a second, but we did recently have a podcast collaboration with her. Her podcast is cheekily named, but very seriously named, about church and religious leader sex abuse and abuse of power and religious leader sex abuse and abuse of power don't fuck the flock, which is a very good rule to live by.

Ruth Reymundo :

So, before we get going, we just want to acknowledge the land that we're on, which is Tungstis Misako land, and those are the traditional owners of the land and, just for me, being here is a real honor. Any season season of the year, but it's summer, it's warm, uh, the trees are just amazing, the river is amazing, it cools you off and and this is just a just a beautiful and powerful place to to live and to work, and we've got a um, a well on our property that ruth and I sit on and just feel the energy of the land and the property, and it just want to just acknowledge the land itself and then the indigenous people who have been owners of this land for thousands of years.

David Mandel:

Right, yeah, actually I would like to add to that land acknowledgement, though I'm not in my native land of California or Santa Rosa County to be harmed, murdered, eradicated, terminated, dispossessed of their land by the United States government's active termination behaviors, their violence. So I just want to acknowledge the Pomo and the Pomo people, which is the land where I was born on, and I want to read Jamie Simpson's bio before we get started and officially introduce her. You know I'm really honored Jamie and I have been in connection for a bit now and I've been following her work and her research and it's extraordinarily important and pertinent considering the large scope of religious institution abuse and abuse of power, abuse of children abuse, sexual abuse, financial abuse, exploitation of labor. So Jamie is a qualified counselor, individual and group supervised. She's an intercultural trainer and academic consultant currently based in Sydney, and Jamie's focus is counseling domestic violence victims, survivors and clergy, sexual abuse victim survivors and clients living with spiritual religious trauma, and providing training and support to professionals developing their careers within this industry.

David Mandel:

Jamie is also a unit coordinator and online learning advisor for the graduate certificate in domestic violence response and Jamie holds a master's of philosophy in criminology, social justice and a graduate certificate in domestic violence, a master's in counseling and a bachelor's degree in counseling and an advanced diploma in counseling, counseling and majoring in child development and parenting. Jamie also has qualifications in advanced practice in male family violence interventions, sexual violence, addiction counseling, suicide prevention, training, religious trauma crisis response counseling and a variety of counseling interventions. Response counseling and a variety of counseling interventions. So, Jamie, you are highly credentialed and you are also out there doing amazing work. Thank you, Welcome, and I don't know if you want to introduce yourself in your own words or do a little land acknowledgement as well.

Jaime Simpson:

Yeah, thank you so much. So, wow, I want to get to know myself after that introduction. So studying has been actually one of the most important ways I've been able to process my own healing and trauma from clergy sexual abuse. So that's probably why I've got so many qualifications, because I just continued to learn. But I am actually in Australia, like you said, in New South Wales, in Sydney, and it is freezing cold today, so it's our winter time and it is pouring rain, so I don't have the beautiful weather that you have there. But I'm on Darwile land in the Sutherland Shire and, yeah, I just pay my respects to the elders, past and present, and know that this land has never been ceded. So I appreciate the opportunity to be here with you both. You both, as I've said in my own podcast, you're both incredibly inspiring for me and to come onto your podcast is a real honor. So thank you.

David Mandel:

Well, thanks for joining us, and you know I'm going to start off just you know, very direct, because you address particularly church, and pastor or religious leader led abuse of power, grooming, sexual abuse, and your research uncovers how pastors groom adult congregants. Yeah, so there's a lot of research into child sexual abuse by religious leaders, but there's not a lot of conversation about adult abuse of congregants and emotional manipulation and professional boundary violations. So how does your work challenge the way that society and institutions like churches frame consent when a power imbalance is at play?

Jaime Simpson:

Yeah, thank you. That is such an important question. But before I begin with that, I just want to acknowledge that, whilst I'll be using gendered language because it reflects the sample in my research, so where male pastors were identified as the person who chose to exploit the female congregant, I do know that male victims of clergy abuse also exist. I just didn't have that sample size. So hopefully in my next research I will be hearing from male survivors. But if there are male survivors listening, please know this doesn't negate your experience in any way.

Jaime Simpson:

So framing what meaningful consent is versus abuse of power and sexual exploitation is actually centred at the centre of my research work.

Jaime Simpson:

So in Australia well, probably globally really I think that there's this misconception surrounding consent that as soon as you turn 16 in Australia you are legally able to consent to enter into a sexual relationship, and there's also this myth that sustains the narrative that people above the 18 years old cannot be groomed and that sexual relationships between adults are inherently consensual.

Jaime Simpson:

So at the heart of my research was exploring sexual exploitation in faith communities of congregants who were 18 at the time the sexual abuse acts were perpetrated. So there's also this societal expectation and myth around sexual violence that it typically implies overt aggression or physical coercion into sexual activity, and because of this, many survivors themselves don't resonate with terms like rape or sexual violence, because it's essential to recognize that grooming processes aren't overtly abusive and violent. So in Australia and I'm sure it's similar where you are too when pastors abuse their position of power to enter into a sexual relationship with a congregant, it's often named an affair or adultery or a moral fall, and it's seen as a moral, but it's not often seen as illegal in an Australian context, so it's often named a co-equal perpetration of sin, and that really overlooks the significance of sexual coercion through influence and authority.

David Mandel:

Yeah, I think that one of the things that people have a really hard time understanding is that coercion is not always an overt threat of violence or harm. Coercion is also a power dynamic differential, where the implicit understanding is that one person has authority over another person and that they have the ability to impact their lives intimately, whether that be their connection with their community and their family and their religion, or that has to do with their job. And in a lot of these rural areas where church and faith-based organizations are providing school care and hospitals, that that type of grooming and boundary cross is incredibly dangerous and it is systemically dangerous.

Ruth Reymundo :

So this is making me think about. You know we and we've talked about this topic already on your podcast, so I'm thinking about it from a different angle this time a little bit going. Trained as a therapist and I'm licensed, you know that we have ethics and responsibilities, that we're taught that we cannot have romantic or sexual relations with our clients.

David Mandel:

Yeah, okay, that in theory, but not necessarily but it's formally articulated I mean, I'm not talking about the reality of what happens.

Ruth Reymundo :

You know, is there a similar injunction explicit in major religious institutions? You know, and I'm not talking about, you know, catholicism, you know where celibacy is the exit standard publicly. But but in other, in other church-based institutions, is there an explicit set of rules that says that you are not allowed to have a relationship with your congregants.

Jaime Simpson:

Yeah, look, you bring up some really great points here. Firstly, the religious space is so unregulated so we don't have external governing boards. Here in Australia anyway there is no external, independent governing board that regulates faith based spaces. So we have in Australia APRA, which regulates psychologists, doctors, health practitioners, chiropractors, gym instructors, social workers, and if they were to engage in a relationship with their client, with their patient, they would be brought up to that governing board or that independent body. They would be sanctioned, they would lose their credentials. They may not ever be allowed to practice again.

Jaime Simpson:

However, in Australia and I know America is similar they are often governed by their own internal eldership board and they do not see this as abuse. They see it again as a fall from grace. They see it that the pastor engaged in adultery. So even last year we had a headline in Australia where it said the megachurch was rocked by a cheating scandal. Right Pastor in a position of power engaged in sexual acts with a staff member and they called it a cheating scandal. So even in Australia the governing board still calls it improper behavior. So because it's not named abuse, it's not seen as abuse in the wider community, which brings us to that concept of undue influence right.

Ruth Reymundo :

So if I'm sitting, you know, with a group of church members and not in the specific context of an allegation of sexual abuse by a pastor or minister, and said is there a power difference between a congregant and the person who's up in the pulpit preaching on Sundays or wherever, what would the average congregant say? What would be the kind of layperson's understanding of that dynamic? Would they say, yeah, they have more power in this setting. They have more power than I do, like if you explored that and maybe you did any research, but what would be the statement they'd make?

Jaime Simpson:

Yeah, that's a really great question because I think that's very specific to each denomination. I think most people would see a reverence and they would see that that person is much closer to God. So they would see that there is a power in balance. They also then see that pastor in one way is infallible, also then see that pastor in one way is infallible, and then they also see that pastor as an equal right. So they've got these two very different equal in terms of that. They're humans and humans sin, so they project that back on the congregation. If that pastor sins, look, he's a man of God's shore and he's a man after God's own heart. Like David was in the Bible. But look, david sinned, david had an affair, david committed adultery.

David Mandel:

David also murdered somebody. Didn't David send somebody to be killed?

Ruth Reymundo :

Yeah, Didn't he use his power to murder his love object?

Jaime Simpson:

Yes, yes, but unfortunately, it's never been preached like that right. So again, the lack of understanding on what constitutes meaningful consent and undue influence is really important concepts when we discuss sexual grooming and exploitation by any professional. So outside the church people will say to me absolutely, that's a power imbalance. What a betrayal of trust. Inside the church. He had a moral fall. He sinned, he's human and he's tempted more because of his position of power, or she's a Jezebel who seduced him into sin.

Ruth Reymundo :

But the sin, if I'm understanding it, is often framed as a sexual falling. But the sin isn't the abuse of power.

David Mandel:

That's right. What's really interesting is, if you look at cases and I would love somebody to do this study, somebody, please do this and that is that when pastors have been caught or religious figures have been caught in financial crimes, they're not often framed as having a moral failing Right. Because they've stolen money from the church and from people who have given that money to the church, they are often charged with a crime. So obviously, religious institutions have a very different measure of what is a sin that is punishable by secular law, and expediently.

David Mandel:

Apparently, violence towards women and children, sexual abuse of congregants doesn't fall under that, and that's the curious thing. That's the thing that I think we all have to kind of center ourselves around and ask the question why? What is their recruiting practices in the sense of what type of humans are they putting into those positions of power? What is their pattern of an institution around defending violence towards women, children and people who are in their care? And why do we keep giving religious institutions the authority to care for the vulnerable in orphanages, hospitals and foster care when they are not accountable to an outside source? What is going on here? That's always my question. I land on those questions every single time, because if we don't ponder that and we claim to be a organization or a religion, that is truly close to God.

David Mandel:

We are opening a big, wide doorway for what religious people would call demonic evil to infiltrate churches and to use their resources for their self gain and pleasure. Lurid pleasure, that's just real. I'm very tired of people not recognizing that the church does treat different types of quote unquote sins and breaches of power, abuses of power differently and always. Domestic violence, child abuse, sexual sin falls in the just go to confession and it's a moral failing. But financial robbing of the church is litigated in secular courts and they are punished and those men are removed. So why?

Jaime Simpson:

yeah, no, it's so true. It's so, so true. And in america, there are 14 states where it is a crime for a pastor to engage in sexual acts with a congregant that they have a pastoral counseling relationship with, no matter of the age. We don't have those same laws here in Australia. Again, I find it just absolutely unbelievable that sexual sin, so to speak, and I would call it sexual exploitation or abuse, they just think the answer is forgiveness.

Ruth Reymundo :

Right, that's going to solve the behavioral pattern, so I just want to ask about one more thing, about this idea of grooming and influence. Ask about one more. Thing about this, um idea of grooming and influence, because I think it's you know, we we see the challenge, I think in lots of cases around course of control and yes people struggling with this in terms of domestic abuse, understanding, and so I think unpacking it can only help.

Ruth Reymundo :

So use the word infallible. You know when I ask about a power imbalance, infallible. Can you talk a little bit about the role of how religion, often in Western world, formulates God as male? Yeah, and what that means, even though God is unknowable and is beyond our conception, but we figured it out that he's male at the same time. It's fascinating to me.

David Mandel:

You know who figured that out. It was some men who figured that out the same time. It's fascinating to me. That's so we figured that out. It was some men figured that out. Well, but it's like I was like okay, I'll buy into the unknowable.

Ruth Reymundo :

Unknowable, but we can, we can label. We can label god as being male for some and beyond human conception. But they're male, but, but, so that? But that's what people are are inculcated.

Jaime Simpson:

That's what people are inculcated, that's what people are going to call it when they believe yeah.

Ruth Reymundo :

So, when the pastor or the religious leader is male, what's your understanding of the influence that may play on this grooming and this power? And power.

Jaime Simpson:

Yeah, yeah, Look, it was really interesting in my data because the pastor often acted in a father figure role to a lot of these congregation members, right? So there is such a level of patriarchy within these denominations where women are inferior, right Women are seen as the servant or you are subjected to your male headship, and even in faith-based Christian marriages the head of that household is the male and you must submit at all times. So those messages surrounding submission to male leadership, submission to authority, submission to your church leader, are embedded in the evangelical identity. So it's not uncommon in my research for the respondent to have an incredible amount of cognitive dissonance because they truly believe that that pastor was a representation of god and therefore that pastor would do no harm to them. So anytime that they were spending time with that pastor, they thought it was mentoring, they thought it was spiritual discipleship, they thought it was someone being their father figure because they thought they were infallible.

Jaime Simpson:

Right, the pastor then would equalize the relationship by starting to disclose things about his life. So, oh, you know I'm really unhappy in my job. All the other ministers you know that I work with, you know they're really, really tough. Or my marriage is on the brink and you know I'm so glad God brought you here to support me. So they then tried to equalize that relationship. So it appears that it's going to be a consensual relationship. But for the congregant who has been taught that this person is the closest person to God, you are to override everything, and women in general, and especially teenage girls in our youth ministries we were told to override every instinct in our body and trust the male leader right. So trust the leaders above. You will do no harm. So that male authority, that male headship, God as a male God, means that you as a female should submit, even if it's against what you feel inside you should be personally doing, because clearly you are in the wrong, because your leader knows best.

David Mandel:

I kind of want to put a pin in the consent conversation, because it's impossible to have an atmosphere of consent where somebody's already removed your judgment and your ability to make choices and discern for yourself, or to say no or to not be abused physically, because many religious leaders do enforce these things with physical harm to their victims or threats of exposure, threats of disjointing them from their community and from their religious or from saying that they're going to go to hell. And it was interesting because recently david was listening to, uh, an interview of a political candidate in texas texas, yeah, evangelical with you know, right now in the united states evangelicals are

David Mandel:

pretty religious extremists, um, and very difficult. They're very non-consent based and they're really supporting some horrific behaviors. Um, but this person pointed out that even when in the bible the story of the holy spirit coming to mary, they, the holy Holy Spirit, asked Mary if she consented. Now, of course, huge power dynamic differential, but in the Bible it made sure to make clear that Mary said yes to becoming pregnant with a deity. Now that has been completely stripped out of every single tradition and narrative and that has been taken and that has been erased. And once you start training people that a religious authority figure can do anything they want to you and that god said that they could, you are already abusing somebody absolutely yeah, and I was really clear in my research.

Jaime Simpson:

It's actually when, looking at the literature surrounding consent, I wanted to highlight that consent isn't just about saying yes, it's about the freedom, as you say, and power to say no without fear, without shame, without spiritual consequence. And let's say, even if the congregation member wanted to engage in the sexual act with the pastor right, when the pastor's breached, broken down every defense in them, made them feel special, made them feel that they're loved, made them feel like this romantic deception that they use or the therapeutic deception. It's that pastor's job at all times to do no harm to that congregation member right in that position of power. But when we look at meaningful consent, it means that a congregation member, a client, a patient can say no without the possibility of harmful consequences to self, to treatment or to the relationship yeah, and I think that that means we have to pay attention to what happens after that interaction happens.

Jaime Simpson:

Absolutely so, you. It needs to be informed, which means we both agree. Right, it needs to be mutual. We both agree. All possible consequences must be acknowledged. Now, when you look at the injuries that resulted for the congregation members in my research, those consequences certainly were not understood. You know the threats of ostracism from your community, the threats of exposing your secret shame and your secret sins, the threats to your family, the threats of suicide. 33% of pastors threaten suicide. So it's interesting in my research because when we look at grooming, a lot of people just think it's about children that are groomed, right. When it comes to adults being groomed, it actually more likely reflects what happens in domestic violence relationships with adults, more that coercive controlling behaviours. So in my research I was really able to clearly state that the sexual exploitation was a form of gender-based violence as it sits under the umbrella of coercive control. Because the same grooming tactics were employed to break down the congregation member to enter into that sexual act. The same post-abuse maintenance tactics were employed to keep that congregation member silent.

David Mandel:

I just want to reiterate one thing that you said, because I think it's incredibly important, and I'm going to link it to the perpetrator pattern-based approach, and that is that oftentimes pastors claim that they entered into a consensual relationship yeah, their religious faith in their community. Once you have that pattern established, you absolutely know there was not a consensual relationship. Once the person who engaged in that relationship comes forward and says I was abused, you know you didn't have a consensual relationship and you have to map the pattern. That's right.

Ruth Reymundo :

And I have to imagine that there's a tremendous amount of gaslighting, which is, if you go public, look what's going to happen to me.

David Mandel:

Right.

Ruth Reymundo :

Is that what you mean? Do you know what's going to happen to me reputationally?

Jaime Simpson:

You would destroy the church. You're going to destroy the church.

Ruth Reymundo :

So you know, this grooming conversation, we could talk about it forever Because I think the similarities are. I mean, people would ask me well, because the word grooming is, you know, didn't used to be used as much as it is now. It's used in horrible ways, you know, in certain settings, but it used to be used to talk about kids and sexual abuse. That's where I first heard it and was first exposed to it. And then people would ask me, when I was doing presentations on domestic abuse, about grooming, or I would talk about grooming in the context of domestic abuse and I think we can look at individual grooming, but in this context and domestic abuse context, cultural grooming, institutional grooming, religious, spiritual yeah, values or kind of perspectives grooming is, you know, and you don't need to go, you know, on the religious side, you, you don't need to go any. We can't go further back than adam and eve, I guess. Right, you can't go any further yeah, you can.

David Mandel:

The sumerian no. But and I'm going back in the bible before you- go back within the context of the story.

Ruth Reymundo :

right right there's Adam and Eve, there's sort of the creation of the earth and Adam and Eve, I have a long memory, yeah. But I'm just saying you know that, you know the fall right, you know who's to blame for that right. So there's, you know sexually abusive, you know relationship and she said relationship, she was sorry, sorry.

Ruth Reymundo :

Sorry, but situation. I'm sorry, you know, but she said one of the reasons why she didn't she felt trapped was she had been taught in her home and religious environment. Yeah, that she was like a dirty piece of gum or something like that if she had premarital sex. That just the just the you know.

Ruth Reymundo :

So she was made more vulnerable by her religious teachings right doesn't excuse the abuse that that, that, that that he and those, the other people perpetrated against her, but but she's absolutely clear, for instance, that she was made more vulnerable and more and more isolated and more yeah um, shamed by what she was taught that that's, that's.

David Mandel:

I think that that that's something that we we we need to put a little bit of a pin in and, as a person who was raised in a catholic institution, sexually child sexually abused. They're groomed there and there were priests and nuns who came to live there and religious leaders that came into contact routinely with that institution and still support it that you know, we were taught in fact, we were taught saints.

David Mandel:

There's a saint in the Catholic Church, st Maria Goretti. There's a saint in the Catholic Church, st Maria Goretti. Maria Goretti is a saint because she died instead of allowing herself and this is the language of better for you to be murdered and die, and that you have to forgive your rapist. One of the reasons she was made a saint was because, before she died, she said she forgave her rapist. And so the rapist who raped her and murdered her was at the Vatican when the Pope made her a saint and said she was a saint for those reasons that she died instead of being raped and that she forgave her rapist and murderer as she was dying. What is that telling women and girls? What is the point of that? Because there is a point to that. That is systematic institutional grooming. Absolutely the whole congregation is groomed yeah.

Jaime Simpson:

Yeah, and even boys. So in my data we looked at, I mapped the institutional messages that actually created an environment that was conducive to sexual exploitation, right? So those messages of forgiveness, the messages of the purity culture, david, that you were talking about, where you're a chewed up piece of gum, we were told men you are the accelerator and women you are the brakes. So pastors would say to the congregation member I'm really attracted to you, so it's your job to make sure you hold the boundaries of this relationship. Now that to external people may seem really foreign, but when you've grown up believing you are the brakes to that man's sexual desires, then you are already internalizing those messages.

Jaime Simpson:

Then you've got the whole honor, culture, loyalty culture, submission, biblical teachers on humility, grace. What does it mean to be a proverbs 31 woman? So there's this woman in the Bible who's a proverbs 31 woman, who you know no one can ever live up to because she's so incredible. But you were taught that this is who you need to be. And then we've got secrecy, we've got nepotism and we've got submission and hierarchy.

David Mandel:

So all those biblical teachings actually create that environment for abuse to thrive.

Jaime Simpson:

It absolutely does. It absolutely does. But just to like, like you said, to put the pin in consent, in australia we have this new meaningful consent laws which I think are phenomenal. They're only in queensland, but they say somebody. There is no consent when somebody acts, because the person is overborn by the abuse of a relationship of authority, trust and dependence.

David Mandel:

Well, one of the things that I'm going to pivot to now is I'm going to pivot to the institutions because there's many individual perpetrators and there's a very clear pattern of humans who desire power and control, who may be mentally ill, violent, criminal, finding solace and benefit in institutions that teach them that, because they're men and because they've gone through certain trainings, that they have an infallible right to the thing that they deem necessary to do in their congregation. And I'm going to make a call to the institutions because what I don't see happening and I would love for people to prove me wrong Somebody, please prove me wrong. Point me to where there are global, interfaith, interreligious conversations happening about how to prevent predators, mentally unstable and criminal humans from uptaking the mantle of your religious authority, your brand, your religious brand, and using it to cover up their crimes, their violence, their sexual violence and their criminality. And I don't see that happening. I do not see that happening. What I see is the same pattern emerging that we see in other contexts, where there's a tremendous fixation on victims yes, where Catholic universities are now studying victims to see where their vulnerabilities are and what trauma have, what trauma responses occur because of the perpetration. But I don't see self-focus, I don't see them looking at the plank in their own eye. I see them engaging in conversations about safeguarding that still is non-transparent and that still is led by people who are internal to those organizations and who do not actually ascribe to what real child abuse and abuse of power is. They disagree with those things.

David Mandel:

Yeah, there's still widespread conversations in many Christian sects and I'm talking the big three, yeah, all three Abrahamic faiths about child marriage, about women as property, about forced reproduction and in ignoring wholesale of men's violence as a sin. And so we have to start asking, when we hear comprehensive silence and really a lack of interfaith curiosity as to why people are attracting mentally ill, unstable, violent criminal men to their leadership, we have to wonder why there is silence. So, if I'm wrong, if there is some strong interfaith you know self-examination happening, trying to plan to exclude men and boys from seminaries and pastorships and religious authority, who have patterns of violence and sexual violence and who are obviously not stable humans, then what is going on?

Jaime Simpson:

Yeah, I 100% agree. I'm not hearing it happen in at all. And again it comes back to their theology, the theology of forgiveness. It is such a dangerous theology because you have these perpetrator pastors who find solace in places like churches because they can continue to go on and perpetrate and just ask for forgiveness. So there is no governing structures or accountability structures in place. That is mapping that perpetrator behaviour, because they see everything as isolated incidences. So it's like the domestic violence space again, before coercive control came into Australian context, police would see every act as an individual act of behavior. So if a pastor perpetrates abuse in one church and then gets moved to another, they are not mapping that behavior. They've just gone, oh, another. They are not mapping that behaviour. They've just gone. Oh yeah, they're forgiven for that. We've now moved them on to the next parish. So it comes back.

Ruth Reymundo :

Yeah, go ahead no finish. Jamie, I'm sorry.

Jaime Simpson:

Yeah, no. So I think your mapping of perpetrator behaviours, mapping of institutional behaviours, are key, but also, yeah, looking at from just a basic fundamental human rights and human resources perspective, who's hiring these people into these positions?

Ruth Reymundo :

I have two questions. One's going to be about domestic abuse specifically, but one's going to be about patterns. I'll do the pattern one first. You know, and one's about you know not. You know, if we're looking at this through a christian lens and I'm not not being christian, you know myself it what would be if I'm looking at this internally and saying, going off ruth's comment here, um, you know, going out for a conference saying you know, where's the effort to sort of address this, where's the systematized way to screen and consider this a serious problem and look at it.

Ruth Reymundo :

If I actually was inside a church environment and I wanted to do that? What would give me religious? What would I stand on religiously? Stand on religiously Like what? Would I be coming to my congregation or the church elders and say we need to address this because it says in the Bible, because our teachings say that. What would I be leaning on as a message?

Jaime Simpson:

of accountability and change. I don't know if you've thought about that and you've seen that. Well, if we go back to the Christian faith, you can lean on the life of Jesus. If we just purely looked at Jesus, jesus was against the church. Jesus flipped the tables in the church and said you are making a business out of this church, right? So if you truly were a follower of who they claim Christ to be, he stood up for women, he fought for women, he fought for children, he rebuked the Pharisees and the religious people.

Jaime Simpson:

But what is really interesting, right? So if we want to shift the focus, say, from the vulnerabilities of survivors to the scale of male pastors committing sexual violence against women and children in these institutions, that shift demands that institutions start examining the systemic enablers, the passive bystanders and the leadership failures that allow those patterns of harm to flourish. So you can bring scripture into it. But if you've got a board of elders who are all financially benefiting from having that pastor in a position of power, because most of them are very charismatic the preacher's circuit it's known as you can earn, you can be $100,000 paid at a conference to speak at. So the financial kickbacks are absolutely extreme, and in America it's even more extreme. You know they've got the private jets and they've got all that. So to shift and to demand institutions to examine themselves in a system where there's significant financial kickbacks, they all promote each other, that true accountability that involves so much discipline, process, independent investigations and clear professional boundaries, like we do experience in other settings. Who's got the moral courage to do it?

David Mandel:

Yeah, I mean one part of this is that the embedded attitude that a faith-based belief means that you have the inside track on God's authority and God's word. That's right and nobody has authority over you. There's a lot of religions that resent secular government poking their nose into their business and holding them accountable in legal and financial ways, because they really seem to have a vested interest in non-transparency, absolutely In unaccountability. And I would like to just say that, though a lot of evangelical and Protestant groups may train their pastors at a later age, a lot of Catholic groups actually recruit boys as young as 13 into pre-seminary boys and those boys are then taught that they are the religious authority and the Catholic church, which is one of the wealthiest institutions, religious institutions in the world. Land-based wealth then provides those boys with a whole lifestyle and it is their own ability to work. They provide for their housing, they provide for the. You know the volunteers and women that upkeep their houses and cook for them and provide them, you know, all sorts of free services, and they are supported by the church and the donations of the clergy of the parishioners.

David Mandel:

So there are some systemic and historic practices, yeah, recruitment of young boys, people who are not properly assessed for their mental and behavioral fitness and then ignoring systemic ignoring of patterns of behaviors, of abuse of power, of abuse of sexual power over their clergy. So it's not even as if these organizations have given a thoughtful eye to why it is they're attracting predators. That's right. I agree actively in practices which encourage unstable, immature, sexually stunted and even violent and criminal men, and a great example of this is that recently you've seen a slew of conversions to the Catholic Church. Right, famous people like Russell Brand who, by the way, is now the head of a prayer app. He's on a prayer app. Right, famous people like Russell Brand who, by the way, is now the head of a prayer. He's on a prayer app. Yeah, men who have domestic violence patterns, men who have patterns of sexual assault and rape.

Jaime Simpson:

Who was baptizing people in white underwear, mind you, and no one seemed to care. Baptizing people whilst he's waiting trial for sexual abuse, that's right. And he's baptizing people whilst he's waiting trial for sexual abuse. And he's baptizing young girls and little girls, that's right.

Ruth Reymundo :

In a river in white underwear, that's right, so this is really crazy yeah, well, I'm still back at the, the. What you said about the story about the, the, the, the sainthood and the the guy being there, I mean just that's right, you can't, it just is the pope honored, honored guest so going back to my, you know what I'd asked about or suggested about domestic abuse.

Ruth Reymundo :

I have a question about your research and you may have found this out or maybe not have been the scope but, of those women who were abused by clergy, how many of them? Or do you have a sense of how many of them were in homes where they were also being abused by their partner?

Jaime Simpson:

And that was part of what they were seeking that help for. Yeah, there was actually only two who were married and one was in a domestic violence relationship and had disclosed that to the pastor. More commonly were women who had been sexually abused as children and had disclosed that to their pastor as well, but a high percentage of the respondents grew up in a high-control evangelical faith community.

Ruth Reymundo :

And if you use the numbers in the recent Australian child maltreatment study, at least 40% grew up in a home of domestic violence and 60% of them grew up at least in homes where some form of child maltreatment happened.

Jaime Simpson:

Those were the Australian population numbers One in three in the maltreatment study and that was represented in my data as well.

David Mandel:

Yeah. So I just again want to put a pin in the fact that those pastors are intentionally predating upon people who are already predated upon. So that's a high level of predation and intense.

Ruth Reymundo :

Well, I think and I think a lot of people listening will, and this is so common they'll want to make this about the survivor's history right. Yes, versus about the duty of care is even higher. Yeah, position, spiritual or otherwise, and you know somebody's been traumatized, the responsible and human thing is not to exploit that.

Ruth Reymundo :

Not to exploit that and in fact sending the message that there's nothing wrong with them and that God loves them and that they're not having to do something for you to somehow prove their worth or value. So just you know it's.

Jaime Simpson:

But that vulnerability lens exists in every space the domestic violence space, the sexual abuse space, the AOD space and we really desperately, as professionals, need to move away from that vulnerability lens and we need to stop using vulnerabilities as a weapon for victim blaming. Right, and that's not what you're doing. You guys are amazing at this and I think I've probably learnt more from you about this than any other professionals. Thank you, but too often churches always say well, you know she was lonely, or she was struggling with her mental health, or you know she's a Jezebel who's trying to seduce a pastor into sin. And, as you said, ruth, this actually shifts the attention away from the calculated behaviors of the perpetrator and wrongly implies that the survivor was responsible it also shifts the focus away from the the duty to protect of the institution and I wonder and where and where are I mean?

Ruth Reymundo :

and where are the, the, the religious leaders who do not exploit their position right?

Ruth Reymundo :

yeah who look at their congregation with respect and treat those vulnerabilities with the care that they deserve. Yeah, and, and we're, because, you know, here we are talking about institutions and institutions are made up of people and institutions are, are, you know, are are set up on a series of rules that people create. Even whatever you believe about, you know religion, that and that you know that it has, it puts a taint on the entire institution, but it's a taint on the entire setup. It makes us, you know, when a law enforcement officer violates their power and uses it against a civilian, it blows back against you know, entire police forces and we see that shaping the way people see police forces. For instance, where are the? Who are the?

Ruth Reymundo :

if I again this is me kind of saying if I say to you who are the leaders, in Australia who are speaking up particularly male leaders who are speaking up against this behaviour, not focusing on victims, focusing on their colleagues, their peers.

David Mandel:

And their institutions.

Ruth Reymundo :

And their institutions. Who would you name? Who are the top three people?

Jaime Simpson:

You know there are some incredible um advocates out there who are males. Um, they get branded, though. They get branded as either being, um, you know, bitter, or, oh, you know, their faith gets branded that they're backslidden or they're deconstructing, or you know they've got an axe against you know, someone famous or something. So there are some and, look, I would say the denomination I'm really respecting here in Australia is the Anglican denomination. They are working really hard in the domestic violence space and the sexual violence space. They do call clergy sexual abuse of an adult congregation member exploitation and abuse where the denomination I predominantly focused on, because my research was limited to evangelical and Pentecostals. They call it improper behaviour. Right, so we do have them, but it's also segregated.

Jaime Simpson:

So what the Anglicans are doing isn't going to make a difference in what the evangelicals are doing. What the evangelicals are doing aren't going to touch what the Anglicans are doing, isn't going to make a difference in what the evangelicals are doing. What the evangelicals are doing aren't going to touch what the Catholics are doing, because it's all so segregated. And that's why I would love to see that governing body, an external governing body, that can somehow bring it all together and focus in on that targeted predatory behavior that the pastors employ to exploit some of those vulnerabilities. Yeah, but that shift would have so much uproar because of that separation of church and state right.

David Mandel:

Well, you know, I think that even with that idea of the separation between church and state, that one can have an external interfaith body. Yeah, that is independent. Right that isn't governed by a government, but that, in all reality, what we all have to do is that, if we really truly believe and love our faiths, that we have to focus on ousting, excluding and not including perpetrators. Absolutely, the institutions have to show good faith that they're actually attempting to do that in a transparent way good faith that they're actually attempting to do that in a transparent way Instead of avoiding accountability, hiding money, trying to disprove survivors' claims, constantly to avoid accountability.

David Mandel:

you know there was large interfaith collaboration globally to address the reduction in faith-based attendance and to address the quote-unquote culture wars. But there has not been wide interfaith collaboration to address the child sexual abuse, the abuse of women, the criminality, the patterns of criminality, the organized criminality, the hiding of money within the churches themselves.

Jaime Simpson:

Or why are people leaving? They're not even addressing. Why are people actually leaving? Those are some of the reasons why right there. That's right, right there.

David Mandel:

So, if you really love your faiths I know that this has probably been a difficult episode for you to listen to, but you have a duty to protect the integrity of your faiths and to cease to allow these things to live in them in such an active and persistent way.

Ruth Reymundo :

Yeah, I think it's so important and I think, jamie, your research is so critical and I'm so glad we can highlight it and we can bring it forward. And I just think this question about how we challenge and question in some ways, lovingly, sometimes not institutions and say, if you're, if you're not, you're not working. Think about some of these things, because this is this is what's important, whether it's law enforcement, whether it's ministry. So I want to move to wrapping up and ask you just you know what your message is for professionals, spanning the gamut of religious leaders to therapists. You know what do you want them to take away from your research in this podcast?

Jaime Simpson:

Yeah, sure. Well, I think. Firstly, if we look at how professionals respond to patterns of adult grooming, firstly, churches need to recognize that this is happening, you know, not turn a blind eye to it in any way, and they need to be trained, like you know, joining one of your programs, for example because what you're doing in this space is incredible and the same patterns of behavior, like I said, that exist in the domestic violence space exist in the faith space. So, being able to understand power and undue influence, looking for patterns and not incidences, shifting that focus from vulnerability to, you know, perpetrator behaviour as well, but in terms of, say, counsellors and caseworkers, just don't replicate the same power and abuse dynamics. You know survivors truly need you to bear witness.

David Mandel:

And what would you say to survivors? I'm sorry, Jamie.

Jaime Simpson:

No, you're right. Oh, wow, survivors. I'm sorry. It's so awful that you've been exploited and your trust was exploited. You know, I kind of have a bit of a theory and I believe that perpetrator pastors often target those who possess the very qualities they lack themselves. And in my research I found that survivors they weren't naive, they weren't promiscuous, they weren't morally compromised. On the contrary, they were actually women of faith who encompassed a deep integrity, had strong moral compasses and a genuine love for God and their faith in their community. They're intelligent, committed, passionate about Jesus and justice and they never would have pursued a relationship with a pastor and I think that's why they're targeted, that the pastor really wanted to distill those qualities and traits within them. So, for survivors, I want you to know you weren't complicit. You were chosen not because of your weakness, but often because of those beautiful convictions and compassions and clarity of purpose, and what happened to you was not your fault. And those things that were targeted your faith, your loyalty, your goodness they still belong to you.

David Mandel:

That's very powerful, jamie. Yeah, that's beautiful. Thank you, that'd be great.

Ruth Reymundo :

Yeah, thank you so much, Jamie, for your research. Thank you for having us on your podcast. Thank you for joining us on this podcast, thank you. We really appreciate it.

David Mandel:

Keep at it, Keep at it yeah you too, and one of the things that I actually said to my mother today. I said to her because I found out I'm going to need another surgery for my injuries that were caused in a Catholic institution.

David Mandel:

And I said, mother, why did you think that violence was a way to create faith in other people? And I would like for you to really ponder that, why there are so many people that believe that violence and coercion are a way to create faith. Because a lot of us still peck away at this topic, not because we hate our faiths, but because we actually loved our faith and wanted to stay in connection with it, and somebody robbed that from us. That's right. So please know that our criticisms are an attempt to create a better environment for people of faith to continue to live and be connected to their faiths with integrity and safety.

Jaime Simpson:

Yeah, absolutely Well, thank you so much, it's wonderful.

Ruth Reymundo :

Thank you, thanks, jamie, and thank you to our listeners. You've been listening to Partner with a Survivor. I'm David Mandel, ceo and founder of the Safety Other Institute.

David Mandel:

And I am Ruth Ramundo Mandel and I am ready to change some stuff here.

Ruth Reymundo :

Yeah. So if you like this podcast, please follow us, please share it with other people, please subscribe on whatever platform you're listening to. If you want to learn more about us, go to safetyotherinstitutecom or take one of our courses at academysafetyotherinstitutecom and keep getting the message out about all this stuff. So with that we are out, thank you.