Partnered with a Survivor: David Mandel and Ruth Reymundo Mandel

Season 6 Episode 16: Centering Survivor Voices: How Scottish Services Shift Blame, Raise Fatherhood Standards & Heal Families

• Ruth Reymundo Mandel & David Mandel • Season 6 • Episode 16

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Blame doesn’t make families safer—clarity does. We sit down with Scottish survivors and practitioners from Equally Safe Falkirk to explore how a survivor-centered, perpetrator-focused, child safety–driven approach changes practice, confidence, and outcomes. You’ll hear how validation replaces tick-box culture, how naming protective parenting restores mothers’ confidence, and how raising standards for fathers reframes accountability as a set of concrete parenting choices.

Nicolla and Emma walk us through building a service with lived experience at its core—co-designing groups like Serenity and Women Unite, challenging harmful language. While survivors Steph and Lita share raw, powerful stories of experiencing moving from professional and systemic victim-blaming and invisibility to being believed and partnered with. Their accounts reveal what happens when professionals consistently pivot back to the perpetrator’s behavior, document survivor strengths, and stay curious instead of prescriptive. The result isn’t just better engagement; it’s safer children, stronger parenting, and more effective multi-agency work.

We also dig into the tough stuff: working with fathers who cause harm without colluding, addressing trauma and substance use without excusing abuse, and building the skills to challenge, contain, and guide change over time. Tools like the Choose to Change Toolkit help dads interrupt escalation, but the heartbeat is consistent messaging: Your behavior is a parenting choice with consequences for your child’s physical and mental health. Leaders will hear a clear call to invest in rigorous training, align language across agencies, and normalize accountability for fathers as a core child protection standard.

If this conversation challenged you or gave you a new tool, share it with a colleague, subscribe for more survivor-centered practice, and leave a review with the one insight you’ll use this week.

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Now available! Mapping the Perpetrator’s Pattern: A Practitioner’s Tool for Improving Assessment, Intervention, and Outcomes The web-based Perpetrator Pattern Mapping Tool is a virtual practice tool for improving assessment, intervention, and outcomes through a perpetrator pattern-based approach. The tool allows practitioners to apply the Model’s critical concepts and principles to their current case load in real

Check out David Mandel's new book Stop Blaming Mothers and Ignoring Fathers: How to Transform the Way We Keep Children Safe from Domestic Violence.

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David Mandel:

And we're back.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel :

We said it at the same time.

David Mandel:

We did. Hi. Welcome back, everybody. Welcome back, Ruth.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel :

Thank you. Welcome back, David. Yeah.

David Mandel:

You're listening to Partnered with Survivor. Welcome back. I hope you're a returning listener. I'm David Mandel, CEO of the Safe and Together Institute.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel :

And I'm Ruth Raimundo Mandel, and I am the co-owner and chief business development officer.

David Mandel:

And we've got a great show for you that's very survivor-centered. And I think all our shows are survivor-centered. We'll talk about that in a minute, but but just um I want to do land acknowledgement and then we'll kind of talk about the show a little bit.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel :

It's not just a survivor-centered show, it's what I call a lovely lilting, accented show. And you're gonna know what I mean in just a minute. That's great with the alliterations and everything.

David Mandel:

Um, so I just want to acknowledge that we're joining you from Tungtis Masako Land, um, in the beautiful Farmington River Valley uh in Connecticut. And just want to acknowledge the history of colonization that that um that this is kind of embedded here uh in the U.S. and other contexts where people are listening. And I also want to acknowledge how important and valuable and powerful the land is. We've got this beautiful well behind our house that we both sit on and meditate on. Gorgeous. It's gorgeous, and it's it's a beautiful fall season here now. And I just also want to acknowledge uh the traditional custodians of Tunksis Masako people and any indigenous elders, past president or emerging who might be listening in, just around connection to land and uh people who um have nurtured and cared for land for Australia, you know, 60, 70,000, 90,000 years, they say. So just really it's so important for us to really acknowledge the history uh and the reality, current realities as well. So um we were talking, you and I were talking before the show, and we talked quite a bit about the institute and its nature, and and the the mission of the institute is to change and transform systems for the benefit of uh survivors, adult and child survivors, uh, the communities they're part of, often who are heavily targeted by um government systems, and have been. Um, and also, you know, for the for the improvement, the real improvement of people using violence, not not sort of sort of uh lip service, but real change for them, right? So, so we do that, and our work, the majority of our day-to-day activities in many ways is with the professionals, you know, the systems themselves, but we're really trying to transform those systems so they become better partners and allies to survivors and to those families. And and so much like when I was doing work, when I did mental behavior change work or perpetrator work, it's called different things, different parts of the world. I was sitting in the room with the person using violence. But the actual client, the ultimate beneficiary of my work was always the person who was not in the room.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel :

Right.

David Mandel:

And this work of the institute is kind of like that.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel :

Yeah, and and it's so important, you know, in the context that we live in, the world we live in, uh, that a lot of times the way that we've focused on survivors has really fixated on the harm that was perpetrated upon them and the responses in their bodies, in their hearts, and their minds, and their intellect, and in their behaviors, rather than really focusing on the person who's causing that harm and how dehumanizing that is, how it really misses all of the efforts that we have to engage in, not only to keep ourselves safe, but to keep our children safe, to keep our community safe, to keep our family safe, and even at times to keep the perpetrator safe because we actually care for that person on a fundamental level. Um, and so I think it's important to acknowledge that we need to go back to that way of seeing survivors in this more holistic way. That doesn't just see what was done to them, but sees who they are as a human, who the strengths they've brought to life, to the situation, to them, and the ways that we've failed them. Our responsibility is to see where we have failed to support them. Right. That's our responsibility.

David Mandel:

The hashtag is fixed systems, not survivors.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel :

Yeah.

David Mandel:

You know, and so uh, you know, it doesn't mean we don't partner with survivors, we don't support them, we don't help them heal, but but there's no intrinsic brokenness there.

Speaker 4:

Yeah.

David Mandel:

That um is is really one of the ethos here at the institute, and one of the things that's related to being partnered with a survivor.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel :

Yeah. So anyway, you want to lead us if you want to lead us into the well, with that, we're gonna have a very survivor-centered podcast. And I'm I'm really excited for everyone to introduce themselves, and they're coming from Scotland. Now, one of the things that I always say is that all over the world where we work, there's two countries, two, where I really have a feeling of affection in my heart for the way that they're striving to do holistic practice, and that is in Scotland and in Australia, those two places. So I really just want to give kudos to the organizations, to the people, to the stakeholders, the collaborators, their survivors, everybody who's really working in that environment to bring that holistic way of being about.

David Mandel:

So with that, well, and I'm sorry to jump in. I know you made me think about something. I'm sorry. Um, but just as we get into this, that these are two of my favorite agencies, Abelar and Bernardo's, and we've had a long-standing relationship with them. And also that when you hear them introduce themselves, really appreciative of equally safe in the funding and the and the government's backing of these efforts.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel :

Yeah.

David Mandel:

I know we'll be talking about that, but it's these are long-standing relationships the institute has that are being represented here through the people we're going to be talking to. So there we go.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel :

So actually, I'm gonna I'm gonna throw it to our guests to introduce themselves because they're from various organizations, but they all have one thing in common. And that is that they are striving to center survivor stories in order to help shift the way that we do practice with survivors. And we are such big advocates of that. So, would you all like to introduce yourself and tell everyone what orgs you're from and where you're coming from?

Nicolla Stewart:

Yep. Hi, and thank you so much for having us along today. We really, really appreciate um the invite. So I'm Nicola Stewart, I'm the partnership manager for our service in Scotland from Falkirk. Um, our service is called Equally Safe Falkirk. Um I'm employed by Bernardos Scotland. And yeah, real pleasure to be here today and to bring along some survivors to just to share their experience and story.

Lita :

Um later, I am a survivor. Um, I use the equally safe service, I use the various um parts of the service, and now I facilitate the Serenity Group, which is a group for women by women that are all survivors. Wonderful.

Emma :

I'm Emma Kerr, I'm the assistant service manager for the Equally Safe Focus Service, and I am employed by Aberlever Children's Charity and also a safe together trainer trainer.

Steph:

Woo! And I'm Steph, and I'm also a survivor, and um have used some of the services of Equally Safe and now I'm part of the Women Unite group as well.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel :

That's wonderful. Well, we're really excited to have you on the podcast. And you all had approached us because you had made these beautiful videos about survivors and their experience, and you had reached out and let us know that the survivors that you're working with feel that they have been impacted by the safe and together model. And we always want to hear that impact, whatever it might be. So, could you share in whatever way feels safe for you a little bit about your journey and how you first became aware of the approach, the safe and together approach?

Speaker 3:

Do you want their survivors to share that or do you want us to talk about with whoever wants to share first? Yes, all of the above. Okay, Lita, do you want to?

Speaker:

So I reached out to the service after using multiple other services. Um, I was at really stuck. I was in the house, terrified to leave. I wanted that help, but the help just wasn't good enough. So I reached out to Equally Safe and built a relationship with Nicola and one of the other ladies, and they worked with myself and my kids. Um, and it was just completely different. I trusted them. There was no blame. They were they were there to help me. They weren't just ticket, it wasn't just a box ticking um checklist, they were actually there to help me. So I went through the service, um, was managed to leave the house, ended up becoming a first responder, which is something I'd always wanted to do but couldn't. Um, which again I thank equally safe for that because without them, there's no way I would have been able to do that. Um I have now done the Safe and Together training, uh the two-day training. Um absolutely loved it. Um, and I could a lot of it I felt was common sense. Um and I then use that now, and it just comes second nature now that I've I've learned the model to then pass that on to the women that I speak to at Serenity Group, and you can see the difference it makes, the trust you the actually open up. That's wonderful.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel :

Thanks, Lita. Yeah, thank you. Congratulations too.

David Mandel:

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 5:

Uh so yeah, um, I came to the service quite late in the journey. So um my experience of um domestic abuse had been quite a slow burner. Um, I knew that something wasn't right in my relationship. Um and yeah, it was like lots of small cuts that just build up to something bigger, um, to the point where you couldn't really see the wood for the trees. Uh became quite a dark place. And eventually my health visitor who had been seeing me weekly got me to the point of being referred to a domestic abuse agency. So I accessed them and then um had some counselling and then accessed a different um domestic abuse agency, and then eventually got to the point of um leaving the relationship um with my child. And then when I was in the new place and having this new life, but still experiencing some difficulties, I had kind of um stopped believing that my experience would ever really be acknowledged. Um, and so when I reached out to Equally Safe, it it wasn't because I felt I was experiencing domestic abuse, it was because I wanted some support, maybe counseling about my feelings to deal with um my child having to have contact with the person that I'd had been in this relationship with. Um I really wasn't thinking about it in terms of me as a survivor of abuse. Um, but when the Safe and Together worker came out, I knew there was something quite different to all of the support that I had previously experienced. Um because she just immediately validated my experience as abuse and I had given up on that. But she didn't tell me um what to do, she didn't process me like a number um within a system. She walked beside me as the other people that um supported me through um the stuff that was happening in my life at that time, and she just helped me see that path forward. Um, when I said before I couldn't see the wood because of the trees, and it was still kind of really messy in my head about what had happened. Um, and so even when I couldn't yet see it myself, they helped me to just find that light and um come along with me on my journey to find my own strength and to move forward and to find myself again. So it was quite late in the day, and I didn't come to the services. I had access to the services either.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel :

That just makes my heart so happy to hear. It's wonderful. Okay, I did yes, sorry, a little emotional there.

David Mandel:

I I wonder um both for Lita and Steph, you know, I I I appreciate the story, and and there's not one size fits all journey for survivors and different points of access, and separation doesn't mean equal safety or the end of the abuse, the control, or the healing process, or you know, all those things are embedded in what you're saying. I I've heard and I wonder how this lines up your experience. I've heard from other survivors who have been impacted by the model that they'll say they helped me realize I was being a better mom than I thought I was. And I wonder if that, yeah, I wonder if that if that resonates with you, if you can speak to that.

Speaker:

Um yeah, so I at the point I when obviously wasn't leaving the house, I felt so a really bad parent. I wasn't taking my kids out, I wasn't able to take my kids out. I was always upset, I was sad, I was angry. And once I realized through the Equally Safe team that actually all my all my strengths, but I'm keeping my kids safe. I might not be taking them out to the park every day, but I'm having to risk assess. I'm doing that every day. The kids are well looked after, they're not missing out on anything, really. Um, and now that I've I've know all my strengths, um, I feel like I'm such a a better mum. I I know I was a good mum back then, but now that I can understand what I went through and how I was feeling, and actually what I still do, um, it's just made a complete difference, and myself and the kids are in a much better place because of it.

David Mandel:

Thanks. Thanks, Lita. And Steph, what about you? You you shook your head. I can see you shake your head up and down, you know.

Speaker 5:

What's the I would definitely agree with that. I mean, when I left the relationship, I had very little confidence in my parenting skills because I had been told, you know, um overthinking things. Um, I need to chill out, I read too many books about stuff. Uh um I was gonna form a maladaptive attachment with my child because of my choice over breastfeeding. Um and yeah, just the other professionals that I'd had from other agencies, you know, they've sent leaflets or lists. They haven't listened, like the professionals from Equally Safe Who Are Safe and Together trained. The other people from previous services had told me to try harder, you know, to have games nights to improve your relationship. Um, but I can't tell you how hard I had been trying with uh all the other thinking. Um even the relationship counselling sessions that I'd been to beforehand had framed um the abuse I experienced when I said I thought it might be cycles of abuse, they framed that as a two-way dance, like there was still this ownership um of my part to play in what I was experiencing. Um, and I would sit through sessions and just feel drained like emotionally and physically. I was going through a lot of health issues. Um and so I just became like um this physical body. It was very difficult to be a mom, to see who I was as a mom because I didn't I couldn't even see myself really. Um and you know, the things like the legal system focusing on co-parenting, um it just made me feel like an additional failure as a mom. Um, and I just felt really invisible and blamed for what I was living through. Um, and I think if I hadn't accessed the support from Equally Safe, I probably would have still been on that trajectory. Um and in the past few months I realized how far I've come in kind of um understanding more about self-respect and and self-care, and just that in itself has made me more present for my little one. The services beforehand didn't really acknowledge my little one. Um, they they gave me the stuff to do, they gave me the stuff to think about and didn't really tell me much about how to support her. I had to go online and learn from like Dr. Coachola and the pieces of information she puts out there on how to support your children and trying to understand her. And I just felt very alone, like I was failing her. But when I met the um professionals who are safe and together trained from Equally Safe, it was like this holistic kind of support. It was looking at me as a human being, and um and identifying that not only was I this survivor, but I was also a mother, and I really started to understand the skills that I was using to support my child and see them for what they were, and to acknowledge that you know it's quite it is quite a good job you're doing, and you are a good mom, which I didn't have beforehand.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel :

I uh it again just makes me so grateful to hear all of that, you know, and that's that's the thing that we strive for, people who were trained in the model to to be able to connect with survivors on that level to really partner with them and make them feel seen in their efforts and not treat them like a number or a thing and really acknowledge the efforts that they're having to mount in order to just parent. And um I can I I can feel the the draining of energy out of my body as I think about you sitting in the room, Steph, and listening to you be made responsible for your perpetrator's behavior and the parenting challenges they're causing causing, you know, and those parenting challenges don't stop when a child has been exposed to that, and maybe they don't quite have that level of contact or uh connection with the person who is abusive. But those things, those triggers, those behavioral triggers, those patterns are already deeply embedded sometimes in children from a very early age because of anxiety and stress. And just to point out that I really acknowledge that not only were you trying to parent when you were with that person, but the ongoing parenting of children who have experienced coercive control and domestic abuse as little ones, it takes a tremendous amount of collective effort and parenting effort in order to help them learn new skills, behavioral skills for coping with stress and anxiety and fear. So I just want to acknowledge all that hard work. And I'm so happy that professionals are assisting you in ways that are helping you now. Um, and and I think thinking of your experiences with professionals before you came into contact with safe and together trained uh workers, uh, what kind of responses and approaches really stood out to you that were very hurtful and really kept you from being able to be safe, keep your child safe and parents in a way that is healthy.

Speaker:

So I actually went to the GP and told them how much I was struggling. I I had just came out of that relationship and I knew I was struggling, and the doctor turned around and told me it was all in my head. So that was it. I was not I was never gonna go back to the GP again after that. I did partner with um a few other domestic abuse um organisations, and like I said earlier, it's it's that blame, it's blaming you. They're no taking into consideration what you've been through and why you are the way you are. You have gone through something absolutely horrific, traumatic, and you're still having to be there for your kids. So that's that blame. There's the not acknowledging him at all, going into social work meetings and being told like you need to do this, this, this, and this. But he's not there, and he's not given anything, and he is the issue. He is the one that chooses to make the decisions, which then affects how I behave and how the children behave. And you get less all the responsibility of that, yep, and that just puts even more pressure on you as you're trying to just survive, you've just got into that relationship. It's new. You might have, for example, I wasn't allowed to go out, I wasn't allowed to talk to people. So I was trying to navigate that again, try and build some friendships. Um, which by the way, when I did the serenity group, um I've met a brilliant bunch of women, and we now we're three years down the line, I think, now, and the women have joined Women Unite as well, and the support from each other is amazing as well. So having that collective of people that are going through the same things, bringing them into the group to learn the tools to be able to survive, and then having that support through the other women in the group has been amazing. That's great.

Speaker 5:

Yeah, Steph, what what what responses from workers before you encountered Safe and Together just completely drained that energy for parenting, for safety, for I think um I'd had support from one agency and they did um a risk assessment so that asked me lots of questions and then said, Oh, it's this number. And I didn't know what that number meant. I didn't know what she was gonna do with that number. Um, and and also when she said, Steph, we could be having these same conversations week in, week out. If you're not gonna um leave, then I can't support you anymore. And I just um I think I panicked at that point and I felt completely helpless. Um at that point, I just wanted somebody to recognize what was happening to help get me out. Um, and equally safe, the workers from equally safe didn't help get me out. But um what they helped me to do was to rebuild my identity and my values and my voice so that I could make the decisions myself about how to get out of something, where to go with something. I wasn't being told and monitored and like sat on someone's tick list of what they had to get through, and then okay, we I've finished my piece of work now, so that means you're finished. Um, you know, they've stood alongside whenever needed. Um, and I suppose that was quite a big difference and had a quite a huge impact on me as well because it meant that I was able to start living as me, not just surviving with somebody observing or commenting on the situation I was in, but um somebody was actually helping me find my own path and way of managing it.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel :

That was great.

David Mandel:

I you know, um I'm saddened, but not surprised by both of your experiences. You know, what you described me you experienced, you know, is often well-intentioned, sometimes not well-intentioned. I'm not sure about the GP, you know, but you know, professionals who are got a job to do may have things that are being foisted on them that they're expected to do, tools that are given to them that are flawed, time pressures, but but they're also working in a system that holds women to a very different standard than men. And I'm just wondering, you know, you know, looking at the experience that with those previous services and looking at the equally safe, safe together trained workers, how you both were impacted by the clarity that that I know is there that I assumed that you you're speaking to. The clarity that you're not responsible, but it's the person using violence, it's the perpetrators responsible, their choices that are creating the harm to you and to the children and to the family and weakening the family. And that higher what what I think about and right about, obviously, is the higher standards for, you know, that we need higher standards for men as parents. What did how did that land? What did that mean to you in your journeys to hear a professional say that or come from that perspective?

Speaker 5:

I think for me, it wasn't just that um somebody said that once. Um, because it's not like, oh, do you know this? Ta-da, and then everything changes. You know, it's that consistent message and that noticing in each of the situations that you bring to your worker, oh my god, has this happened? And then they're just consistent and supportive with their message back to you. So I'll say, Oh my goodness, da-da-da-da-da. And then they come back, well, actually, what about this? You know, there's um there's curiosity from them that gives you space to explore, and that's really empowering. Um yeah, it's really empowering when you've got somebody who's able to do that with you and who understands from that outside perspective.

Speaker:

And for myself, um, when people were coming in, it was a case of asking the questions, doing what they were told to do, and then they would leave. And then I'm just sat there still, like no further forward, no any further back. But when I joined the Equally Safe Service, I had somebody there that was building my confidence, that was giving me all these strengths that I had that I I genuinely didn't think I had. And it wasn't until they say to me, You make sure the kids are clean and you go to school and they're always fed, that is a strength. Like it doesn't seem like that when you're that low and you're constantly being told you're a bad mum, this, that, and other. So I think the difference by building my confidence made me happier and a lot better person. I've always had empathy, but speaking to other the other women, I've actually got so much more empathy. Um, and even the kids as well, like other services kind of disregarded kids, they didn't go through it because they didn't see anything that happened, and so they're fine. And then one of my daughters actually ended up with really bad anxiety. Um, and she asked me in the car one day. Well, she said to me in the car, I remember when this happened, and I was like, Oh, like I didn't even know that you had seen that or witnessed it. So I took it back to Equally Safe at the time, and they spoke to me, they came out, they spoke to my daughter, my son, and just even with just the way they were wording things for the kids, I've taken that on, and I now use that same language, and I get so much more from them. Um, they obviously feel so much, not that they're I never felt safe to speak to me, but they're so open and they will come to me with anything. And I think it is just because of the way that I've spoken to them, and I've only learned that to equally safe.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel :

Yeah, that's it's so healing to be given the skills, ability, the support, and the space to find the best way forward for your safety because it's not always gonna be the same way. Each situation is gonna have its own unique uh spaces where we have to really be curious to see how we can move with a family and survivors to bring that about. But I want to I want to pivot and bring the the people working with the survivors, and I know the survivors are working with professionals and they're professionals as well. I want to acknowledge that. Um, but riffing off of the thought that engaging in this way of thinking and working not only increases our ability to connect and get information that's really meaningful about safety and well being and healing for the survivor, but what is it like experiencing that shift in practice on the other side? Does that also make you as a professional interacting with survivors more confident, more empathetic? More grounded in yourself, less frightened about your work. Like those are the things I want to know from professionals.

Speaker 4:

So Nicola and I both done our seeking together training together for the first report in Falkwork in 2016. And for me, it was a real shine the light moment of yeah, why did we not know this? And why is this not what we do already? But it was like it's common sense. And I I instantly during that training was thinking about families at the time that I was supporting, going, well, actually, why have I not considered that before? Why have I not considered that actually her mental health has been exacerbated because of the perpetrators' post-separation abuse? You know, it's just it's joined up a lot of dots for me, but also giving me that real I am also a survivor um of domestic abuse myself, and I've always had that kind of empathy, but just building on that empathy and understanding um for people's circumstances to be able to best support them the best way that I can.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. No, I totally agree, Emma, and I and I think similar to when we developed this service um after our training, and we were very much part of the co-design along with other survivors, and it was very much about listening to the survivors and listening to what their experience, negative or positive, from previous systems that they've been involved with, and and using the Safe and Together model as the sort of, I suppose, the real real part of the service. We wanted to embed that model within our service so that we were using all of the principles of the model and being able to still hold perpetrators accountable because very much the women we were talking to were still being blamed for a lot of the behaviors and the systems weren't helping that. They were going along to child protection meetings, they were going to you know meeting with social work, and they felt all the responsibility was on them and the beh the perpetrator wasn't even looked at, that they weren't held accountable, they weren't even engaged with, and the the survivor was left to deal with everything, along with the trauma that they had, you know, and and after, you know, leaving leaving that perpetrator. And and I suppose for us it was so important to look at how do we do this differently? How do we support survivors in a holistic whole family way that can embed the model and look at the perpetrator's behavior and help survivors understand that this isn't their fault, this is about engaging and provening with the perpetrator. And that's part of what our service offers. We we will work with dads as fathers to look at how can you be, you know, how does your behavior affect you as a father? Yeah, and that's really important.

Speaker 4:

And I think sorry, Ruth, I was just going to say there, Nicola highlighted that. That for us, Nicola and I um were established obviously at the very start of the service, and for both of us was really important, like Nicola's saying about we need to get survivor's voice here to help us develop this service from the get-go, from first day of open. We want to hear the survivor's voice of what tell us what you need, what would have helped previously, and what services would have been there for you? What would the support have looked like? And that's where Serenity Women's Wellbeing Group was established. Um, and that has been a real integral part of your service and continues to be this day. Um, with kind of funding applications, etc., that our survivor voices are um and those we love to experience is integral to our service.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel :

Yeah. Our experiences should form the basis of programs and services. That's the bottom line. The experience of survivors and adult and child should inform the services that we are using. But I want to pivot over to a little bit about the perpetrator. Because we've talked a lot about how engaging with a safe and together trained worker changed survivors' experience. But have you seen indications of the perpetrator themselves changing, not necessarily ceasing abuse, but maybe even being more contained, being less uh having less incidents of them trying to use coercive control, becoming better fathers, saying, I really don't want to do it this way, I want to do it a better way, but I don't have the skills. Have you seen that happen as well?

Speaker 3:

Yep. Yeah, we've got quite a few cases. I mean, I suppose from the start, the perpetrator needs to want to change and needs to want to work with us. And I suppose that's one of the challenges that you know we have we have come across. I can speak from our sort of family group decision-making model where we've had dads come along to and acknowledged that they felt their behaviour needed to change, or or they felt that there wasn't support out there, or they were making excuses, I suppose, for their behaviour. And I suppose they've came along and and been part of a meeting to look at what is it they can do better. Now it's easy saying that, it's actually doing it, isn't it? And it's about what tools can we use to support them to change. Um we've used the Choose to Change program for Safing Together within some of the work with dads. Um, and they've also been able to, I suppose, be honest about some of their experiences. Um and not make no, it's not an excuse, but it's about you know helping them to understand, you know, what the impact of their behaviour and how that was a choice that they made on their on their child or on their partner. Um so yeah, we've had we've had several cases. I know within Emma's service as well, they've had a few really intense pieces of work that they've they've um worked with with dads, um, from dads that have been in in prison um back into the the community. Um I'll let you share that, Emma.

Speaker 4:

Yeah. So um we've had um two really long pieces of work with two individual dads over the last year, and and both pieces of work have lasted the duration of a year plus. Um, it's not been a short-term intervention piece of work. Um, and the integral part of that, and I was just talking to Steph about this before we came on, an integral part of that has been supporting those that have caused harm to understand their own lives and experiences. Um, and these dads were taking responsibility for their behaviours and were accepting and acknowledging their behaviours, but didn't know what to do to move forward and didn't know why they were acting the way they were. Um there was the kind of common tactic of trying to use mental health and substance abuse, etc. But they really wanted to kind of help get help to understand who they are and where they've come from. So a lot of that work has been kind of like trauma-based and support around understanding adverse childhood experiences, um, and then always linking back. So, with one of her dads, who Nicola was saying around working inside prison with, he was always putting it back to his um about the survivor's behaviour and how she'd instigated it. And the key worker was integral to be able to pivot that back constantly and challenge his decisions and behaviours, but also putting it back to being about his children and how his behaviours were parenting choices, and how reminding him constantly and consistently how his behaviours were impacting on his children's physical and mental well-being. And I think that's that's never happened for these dads before. So trying to understand their own life and experiences and where their their choices have taken them in terms of prison, and being able to support them to understand the impact of their children and their behaviour choices, etc., has really helped. And we've just completed a really successful piece of work with a dad that one of our keyworkers was supporting for over a year. Um, he has now left the family home. He has left the family home, importantly, um, and has set up a new home and has now seen his children regularly, and the relationship between him and his children has really kind of flourished and and it's become a nurturing relationship, not a dictating um blaming relationship of the children's behaviour. But actually, let's look at this as to why the children are acting the way they are, and trying to get the dads to understand that. So, yeah, we've just had a really successful outcome um with one of our dads, but we are constantly challenging, pivoting, and it's always back to being about the parent choices and how their behaviors affect their children.

David Mandel:

Yeah. Yeah, there's so many amazing markers of what we would call domestic violence informed work, domestic violence proficient work, and and the model in action. And like Lita said, you know, it's not our staff, and I'm sorry, one of you said, you know, it isn't just a tick box, you say this once, he's responsible, or it's a parenting choice. But it it it's a constant, you talked about a year's worth of work, Emma. You know, just sort of in and that ability of that worker, the workers, whoever it is, to hold that space, to hear his story, maybe of trauma of childhood, you know, what incarceration did to him, all those things. But then to hold that their ground of these are your behaviors. We're not gonna let you blame uh your partner. We're not gonna let you use your past. We're gonna acknowledge it, we're gonna see it, but we're not gonna let you use it as an excuse or justification for acting poorly to your partner, to your kids. And and that um we're gonna be, you know, one of the things that stands out for me and and you know, over the years, and you know, I worked with with men for years and then would do partner contact and talk to their partners and listen to their partners. And over and over again, the generosity and the practicality, I'll be honest, of survivors saying, I don't want to be with him anymore anymore, but I want him to get help so he can be a good dad. I I can't tell you how many times I heard that. Or I know what he grew up with, and it's not okay for him to treat me this way, but I know he he experienced some bad things in his life, and I'd like to see him have better for himself and for our kids. And so it feels like you you really navigated, you and your team really navigated those that complexity really well. And I know the model was part of the guide. I I wonder just if you could speak specifically, Emma, to the not allowing trauma histories or mental health issues or substance abuse to be used as a as an excuse or justification, but not ignoring them either. And I know that a lot of practitioners kind of struggle and it comes becomes an either-or thing. Well, you know, he's a substance user and and that's the main issue, or or it's all about the violence, and let's ignore the substance use because that's not the cause. And they they write off the substance use as a as non-causal, therefore it's not our business. Tell me how you navigated, at least with one of these uh users, you know, uh of services, that that that piece.

Speaker 4:

Well, I think it was integral for the key worker to be sharing with the dad around, do you know, well, actually, you're choosing to use substances, which is then exacerbating your behaviors. Um so being constantly, again, consistently using the kind of mental health substance abuse, as we know that kind of interference cause, exacerbate, being able to put that back to the dads to say, well, actually, you chose on that weekend that you were going to drink alcohol, and then that led to your behaviour escalating. And then through using the choose to change programme, we have managed to support dads to be able to recognise when things are maybe escalating or highlighted, that they are using their choose to change network um to be able to reach out at the right time to be able to support, and that did work with one of our dads. He was successfully coming out of a situation within a meeting that he found really stressful. Um and he phoned the worker on his way to the shop because he was going to purchase alcohol. And I suppose what the Safe and Together model has done for the for the staff and the service is giving them the real confidence to actively challenge, to confidently challenge. Um we have a really skilled team, and this key worker specifically is like, well, do you know what? You're choosing to go and choose alcohol, but actually what you're doing is you're able and recognise that you're choosing to go and choose um buy alcohol, and you know then what's going to happen. And from that phone call of using the tool, he managed to divert that day and he didn't go and buy alcohol. So then there was a reduction and there wasn't an incident or a police call out that evening. But I think the Safing Together model really lent itself to be able to support staff to speak to dads about yes, we recognize the mental health, yes, we recognize the substance abuse, but they are not the reasons why you choose to be abusive towards your partner.

David Mandel:

It it's brilliant and so clear. And it reminds me uh, you know, uh over the years, you know, the what I would often, you know, hear back from workers across continents, different continents, different sectors, you know, that domestic abuse perpetrators are too hard to work with. You can't find them. Um, even if you find them, they won't work with you. Um so what's the point? And if they won't change anyway. I mean, there was a litany of sort of cascading, sort of you can't find them, but even if you find them, they won't engage you. And even if they won't, even if they engage you, they won't change. And even if they want to change, there's no services, and that's the, you know, and and what I came to realize is while there are genuine challenges, while there are definite complexities, that as a workforce, we're often not supported in our skills, confidence, and knowledge and experience to work with dads in general, to see nonviolent dads as responsible for their kids, to hold nonviolent dads up to a standard of exploration, saying your kid needs to go to therapy, where do you stand? Are you supportive of that? You know, maybe you're not taking the kid to the doctor, but are you supportive of the mom? And you do ask questions after she goes, and do you understand what the kids need? Like, are you engaged? And so we don't have a map for that with nonviolent fathers. And then when it comes to violent fathers, we're like, can't find them, can't work with them, they're too hard. And what you're telling us, and I'm I'm saying this for other professionals, not for you, is that this is where our systems are broken and failing families. Yeah, and they're failing survivors, adult survivors, they're failing kids, and they're failing those men because we know that if we're better trained, that doesn't mean every perpetrator is going to change. It doesn't mean that every kid's gonna be healed. That that's a that's an impossible, unrealistic standard, anyway. Do I believe we can make significant inroads? Can we make our systems better, more efficient? Uh, can we stop re-victimizing victims by doing this? Absolutely. And I just want for everybody who's kind of a systems leader to think about what this means for your staff. Uh, and I I wonder if if if you have comments, anybody about to, you know, for leadership to be thinking about or about the you know, the systems, you know, sort of what what they can learn from your experiences.

Speaker 3:

I think also Emma. I was just going to make a comment about I suppose the how our service has evolved to help improve systems. And I think one of the things that came from our Women's Unite, which is a participation group of survivors, and they've been out to speak to different, you know, parts of the system, including social work students, you know, child protection systems, education health, and just really sharing their lived experience of what they what has worked for them, but what needs to change. And that's it's really and what what we're really clear about when we go along to these sessions is that it's not just about listening to our survivors, it's about what are you going to do to action from what you hear from our survivors. So we want to see, you know, we want to see feedback and we want to see policy, and we want to see, you know, what is it you're doing going to be doing different from us coming along today. And it's it's really made a significant difference in our local authority in terms of creating, you know, with core advocacy standards and creating, you know, with child protection planning meetings, they've really looked at how they can prepare survivors and still engage perpetrators within that, within within that process. Um, we've we've been speaking to criminal justice, we've been speaking to um have I missed? We've gone along to um poverty and and public debt and spoken about financial abuse and just really looked at how some of the barriers to leave in for survivors leaving um that are you know experiencing financial abuse. Um so and and that's just a small pocket of some of the some of the the workshops that we've we've taken out. And the survivors are really keen to continue to get a message out there about you know, this is this is a really important system change and language, if we just even change our language, that is a massive step in the right direction that will help people feel believed and validated.

Speaker 4:

And I think Scotty also advocates well that from being three years in service, and you know, we're still an early developed service in terms of duration, but being able to support other um practitioners and services to to not be scared of I don't work with dads, I don't work with those that have caused harm. And it initially it kind of gets the backup, but we've tried to really kind of break that down and support people to see the them as dads. You know, you speak to mum and you deal with mum, we need to speak with dad the same as so it's kind of fallen into place for me that actually in order to have these relationships with dads and and have that supportive relationship, that partnering element has to happen also. So, as well as partnering with a survivor, we also need to kind of partner with the perpetrator to be able to provide that supportive relationship. And because if we've not got the relationship, we're not going to affect any change.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel :

Yeah, I there's a couple of things. Oh, yeah, we both have things in my head. You want to go?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, we're both go ahead.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel :

Um, you know, I I feel like we're all gaining language around how we are have a responsibility to work equally with with fathers as well as mothers. I think it's weird we have to keep saying that, but we do because the world is as the world is. But also to say that our efforts are never going to be as successful if we are out there doing it alone as a singular service, that multiple perspectives are really necessary for helping a person to change their behaviors, for giving them the opportunity to, for reflecting back to them the things that are expected of them as a parent, and for supporting the behaviors that are healthy for child well-being, development, safety. We all actually have to be able to reflect that back to parents, regardless of their gender. But we have to be able to do it particularly with men because they have not been expected to be parents. We still have a failure of expectation that men are going to be engaged as fathers in the nurturance and the safety and the success of their children, which is crazy. And we all have to be on the same page and be able to pivot to the person who's choosing violence and say, My goodwill towards you is that you can have a healthy relationship with your child and yourself. And that's what I'm here to help you do. I'm going to tell you the behaviors that are hurting that. I will tell you the behaviors that will sever that, that may actually lead to the loss of your liberties and your connection and your rights. And if you can disrupt those, and I'm going to put that on you, if you can disrupt those and you can adopt new behaviors, then we are going to be really successful in this engagement or partnership or whatever you want to call it. But our our engagement success depends on the ways that you choose to change.

David Mandel:

I I I love that. If we're doing well, we're talking often to um leaders and professionals, and we're listening to survivors, and we're saying things that survivors are excited that we're saying to professionals and leaders, you know, that it really speaks to them. And for me, you know, what I'm aware of, uh, Emma, as you're talking, you know, is that that language of partnering only makes sense. Being strength-based for the perpetrator only makes sense and is only safe and doable when we're so grounded in behavior change and a focus on responsibility. Otherwise, we'll get manipulated, otherwise, we'll collude, otherwise, we'll focus on the wrong things, otherwise, we'll we'll see recovery as a automatic good for that person, subject recovery, when it can become weaponized in family court, for instance. And say, I recovered, look at her. She's a mess.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel :

I did my tick box.

David Mandel:

I did my tick box, and and I do it's a call, I really want to call to everybody, which is um that this is because these lower standards for men as parents that Ruth's talking about that I talk about all the time, and much higher standards for women as parents, is is is woven so deep in the culture, our cultures, and I'm talking about across places we were, and in the cultures of organizations, that it's a constant unlearning process. And I just want to give one example, which is that um, you know, that really, like for me, I've constantly challenging myself. Am I understanding articulating the highest possible standards and expectations for fathers who have used violence? And one of the areas that kind of emerged over the last few years is saying um to a dad who's been abusive and violent, controlling and caused harm, damage to co-parenting relationships, damage to the other person as a parent, damage to kids in all different ways, that whether they have the capacity or not to do this, they are responsible as a parent to heal the harm that they caused. Now, that doesn't mean they have the capacity or the willingness to do it, but our cultural expectation is if your kid is sick, you take them to the doctor. It doesn't matter how they got sick, it doesn't matter if they caught the cold from you or from another kid at school. You can't just say, well, they caught it from me, I'm not responsible, and therefore, you know, uh, they're my kid and and and I don't need to take them. It's it's a stranger injures them, you're responsible for taking them to the doctor. You injure them, you're responsible for taking the doctor. If somebody go through some horrible experience in the community that they need mental health, you know, treatment for, you take them. If you cause the experience that's causing them stress and mental health decisions, you take them. That's what a parent does. And so I I'm just a I just a really a plea for all of us, professionals, particularly leaders, to say, do we is that standard expectation embedded into our assessments, into the way we talk to families? And and are we communicating that to survivors? Because even if the person using violence doesn't want to change or won't engage in that, our experience, and it sounds like it's experience of the folks on this call, is hearing that message can be very meaningful and very healing in and of itself.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel :

Right. Well, I I hate to do this, but we're really long in the tooth today, and we've got two more questions to go. Um, so I wanna I wanna pivot to our two ending questions. Um, and that is, and this is for all of you. Um, but if you could tell professionals one thing about working with survival, survivors and and the model, what what would it be?

Speaker:

I personally would say use listen to your language for years. It was I was a victim, I was a victim. When I when I came to equality, it pivoted. It's no, you're a survivor. That in itself was huge. Um that's for me, I still hear people saying victim, and I'm like, no, they're not victim, they are a survivor. And I do speak to perpetrators, um, not in a professional capacity at all, just through friends. And again, now that I know how equally safe and Bernardo's and Aber Bower all uh deal with perpetrators, I found myself doing it just naturally after doing the equally safe um one-day overview, two-day.

Speaker 5:

I suppose I would say um to professionals to come along to come alongside survivors as equals and not underestimate our insight, strength, or humanity, and and also that discomfort is not protection.

David Mandel:

Action and empathy are that's beautiful.

Speaker 3:

I think also just shifting that responsibility back onto the person who's the abuser, not to the person that's surviving, and just always be mindful and remember that that it's not their, you know, it's not the survivor's fault. It's look at the behaviour behind that and who's doing that.

Speaker 4:

For me, probably the biggest thing is around um being curious. I always tell people in the training room if anything, be curious, um, be confident to ask the questions, um, and and gain confidence to do that by by being active to do it. Um and also to just like Steph's been saying, um to walk alongside, not to dictate our journey, um, but to walk alongside them on it and support them in the best way that we can in a real trauma-informed way.

Speaker 3:

I think one of the things, Emma, for us is like it's listening, it's give people a voice, give our survivors a voice because we are, you know, let's as you you've said a few times, Steph, how do we walk alongside rather than there's you know, we're up here and you know, survivors feel feel down here? How do we make them feel empowered and equal so that they are able to have the strength to have a voice? And that's really important to us as a service.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel :

And and what would you want uh survivors to hear? What would you say to survivors?

Speaker 5:

I think I would say that even the smallest step forwards matters and that you're not alone.

Speaker:

Definitely, I would say reach out. There's always going to be somebody that's been in the same position or knows someone that's been in that position, and there are and less people talk, we're not gonna know what systems and um organizations are out there. I didn't know anything about equally safe. I thought Bernardo's Aber Lever are just for kids, reached out for that reason and then found out actually there's so much more. And I didn't know that, and I would never have known that had I not tried to get help for my kids.

Speaker 3:

I suppose, yes, don't be afraid, don't, you know, fear, I suppose, is one of the main things, you know, for survivors to reach out to services, to leave, you know, to to be able to understand what they're going through. And I suppose just you know, have have strength, you know, that first conversation that you have, you know, if you can reach out to someone who's close, someone who's an another service, someone that you feel will listen, then you know, don't be afraid.

David Mandel:

Well, uh anything else, I don't know. I I you know what I I just uh was listening to talked to you for another hour. You know, I want to say a couple of things by way of wrapping up, and which is just that um hearing your stories, listening, and is so meaningful for me. me because this these are exactly the impacts that I hope the model has and the difference it makes you know and and I you know used to do direct work with families and and haven't in a long time and miss it and have not lost though obviously the same passion and drive and commitment that that has energized me and driven me for almost four decades and so this feeds me this nourishes me so thank you for sharing your stories with me and and and and anybody else who might be listening.

Ruth Reymundo Mandel :

Yeah um your your stories are deeply meaningful and impactful yeah in you know the the central theme that we always see coming out of people who adopt the safe and together model is that they feel more empowered. They feel more empowered as workers as people who have the responsibility to care for the safety and well-being of children parents who need to be within the system because of a perpetrator or because they are a perpetrator feel that they get the skills and the support that they need in order to be good parents or in order to parent in a context of ongoing post-separation coercive control or abuse. And and I'm really deeply humbled and grateful for you sharing your story with everyone.

David Mandel:

I have one more thing which doesn't surprise you both but I I really do want to acknowledge we talk a lot about at the institute about listening the power of listening the importance of listening and relationships. And you know I think for everybody listening to the show that both those things were exemplified in what worked in the application model what worked in the relationship between the safety of the trained practitioners and the survivors that whether it's the language of they walked with me they didn't talk down to me I wasn't a tick box. I want everybody to kind of hear that and in addition to that and maybe less visible Avalauer Bernardo's and the institute have had long-term relationships. You know the certified trainers you know we don't we don't see you all just for a minute or a weekend or two days. It's an ongoing relationship it's a rig if people are listening it's a rigorous training process. I mean really you know I don't I haven't seen anything I mean I'm gonna tutor on horn anything as rigorous but but when we see these kind of consistent results all over the world it explains why the rigor but the relationship is so important. And also a relationship in the Scottish context whether it's Anna Mitchell sort of getting us going in Scotland over 10 years ago um but the long-term relationship with the Scottish government and equally safe funding and if we're going to post in the show notes the links to the research on the by the improvement service on equally safe sites you know our relationship with Falkirk particularly just as a level I want it's not always obvious in the in the in here but there are relationships that drive this yeah absolutely and and we really value those relationships both at the systemic level the agency level the individual practitioner level and then obviously between uh practitioners and users of service. So just I want our listeners to really hear this as a as a show about relationship and about listening as much as it is about anything else. Yeah so thank you all very much for coming on and speaking about your experiences um on both sides of being survivors and professionals and survivor professionals and and all of that and you've been listening to partnered with the survivor that's right and if you want to learn more well first share this show please share the show send in ideas for shows we're really interested um if you want to learn about the institute go to safety of the institute.com we are having a UK conference in February I don't know the date off the top of my head but I really want people virtual yeah so just know that that's coming we've got a great program signed up and we'll put that in the show notes as well um and uh I'm still David Mandel uh the CEO of the Safety of the Institute and I'm still Ruth Ramundo Mandel and we are out yay