Partnered with a Survivor: David Mandel and Ruth Reymundo Mandel
This podcast is a series of conversations.
What started as a series of intimate conversations between Ruth and David that ranged from personal to professional experiences around violence, relationships, abuse, and system and professional responses which harm, not help, has now become a global conversation about systems and culture change. In many episodes, David and Ruth are joined by a global leader in different areas like child safety, men and masculinity, and, of course, partnering with survivors. Each episode is a deep dive into complex topics like how systems fail domestic abuse survivors and their children, societal views of masculinity and violence, and how intersectionalities such as cultural beliefs, religious beliefs, and unique vulnerabilities impact how we respond to abuse and violence. These far-ranging discussions offer an insider look into how we navigate the world together as professionals, as parents, and as partners. During these podcasts, David and Ruth challenge the notions which keep all of us from moving forward collectively as systems, as cultures, and as families into safety, nurturance, and healing.
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Partnered with a Survivor: David Mandel and Ruth Reymundo Mandel
Season 6 Episode 19: Inside Ten To Men: What Male Health Reveals About Partner Violence
A stadium’s worth of men—every year. That’s the scale of new intimate partner violence use suggested by Ten To Men, Australia’s landmark longitudinal study of male health.
We sit down with Karlee O’Donnell, a researcher with the Australian Institute of Family Studies, to unpack what the data really says about how depression, suicidality, paternal warmth, and social support shape men’s risk—and what actually works to prevent harm.
Across a decade of surveys, one in three men self-reported using some form of intimate partner violence. Yet within those hard numbers are practical levers. Men who strongly felt they received warm, respectful affection from a father or father figure were nearly half as likely to perpetrate IPV later. That’s not about father presence; it’s about the quality of care boys see and absorb. We translate that insight into real-world steps: father-inclusive perinatal care, concrete coaching on warmth and de-escalation, and programs that treat caregiving as core to men’s health.
We also dig into mental health pathways without reducing IPV to mental illness. Men with moderate or severe depressive symptoms were significantly more likely to use IPV later, and men with suicidal thoughts, plans, or attempts carried elevated risk independent of depression. We explore how anger, externalizing behaviors, and coercive control intersect with distress, and why services must protect partners while caring for the suicidal person. Clinicians get a roadmap: use screenings as early-warning signals, educate on escalation, build coping skills, and connect men to support before behavior hardens into harm.
Finally, we highlight the quiet power of social support, which lowered the odds of IPV onset, and we make the case for policy that rebuilds men’s community ties and includes fathers from day one. Healthier men mean safer families and stronger communities. If you care about preventing violence, ending loneliness, and improving men’s mental health, this conversation points to integrated solutions you can act on today.
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Now available! Mapping the Perpetrator’s Pattern: A Practitioner’s Tool for Improving Assessment, Intervention, and Outcomes The web-based Perpetrator Pattern Mapping Tool is a virtual practice tool for improving assessment, intervention, and outcomes through a perpetrator pattern-based approach. The tool allows practitioners to apply the Model’s critical concepts and principles to their current case load in real
Check out David Mandel's new book Stop Blaming Mothers and Ignoring Fathers: How to Transform the Way We Keep Children Safe from Domestic Violence.
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And we're back.
SPEAKER_03:And we're back. Hi.
SPEAKER_02:I think we played chicken with who's going to say it first.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, we do. I don't even know who said it first this time. So anyway, we you are listening once again to partner with Survivor, and I am still David Mandel, CEO and founder of the Safe and Together Institute.
SPEAKER_02:I am still Ruth Raimundo Mandel, and I am the co-owner and chief business development.
SPEAKER_03:And we are joining you from Tungus Masako Land here in beautiful northeast part of the United States and Connecticut. And we just want to acknowledge the traditional owners of land here and any Indigenous elders, past, present, and emerging who are listening to the show. We are really deeply connected to the land here. We feel that. And we really want to acknowledge all the places where lands have been stolen from Indigenous people.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. And we just actually had a huge dump of rain on the on the on our tin roof, if you can hear it back there. Um well I'm we're talking today um with a researcher who was led the 10 to men study. And you want to you want to introduce her?
SPEAKER_03:Well, yeah, I will in a second, but I want to just frame this for our audience, which is just that for me, there is a um real deep desire to talk about the intersection of men's health and well-being, mental health, physical health, and and male intimate partner violence perpetration. And uh oftentimes these things are considered important but kept separate. And I think we can't afford to do that anymore.
SPEAKER_02:Right, right. And even when we have amazing research like this, uh, oftentimes what happens is that the research gets sort of parceled off, siloed off into different um practices, right? Um, rather than being taken as a whole, which is actually incredibly important for us to understand um the reasons for violence, the conditions for violence, and the things that we can do to prevent and intervene with violence.
SPEAKER_03:So uh this is part of if you're following me on LinkedIn, uh yeah, I'm posting, you've been posting about this, and um, but it's also going to be a major theme at our uh Asia Pacific conference. And I'm actually doing a masterclass on this at our European conference in February. So if you're tracking our events in February, we're doing a virtual conference uh in Europe and the UK, and then we're doing our 20th anniversary. Well, they're both the 20th anniversary events, but we're doing a massive major three-day in-person event in Sydney. First time we're in New South Wales, and very exciting um uh sessions about this topic itself. So, with that, with no further ado, I want to introduce our guest for today's partner with the survivor episode, Carly O'Donnell. She's a research fellow at the Australian Institute of Family Studies, and she's been involved with the 10 to Men Research Project. And um, Carly, we would just want to thank you for joining us on the show.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you so much for having me on the show. It is a pleasure. Anytime I get to talk about my research, it's part of the job that I love the most. I don't get out of bed excited to do data analysis, but I do get out of bed excited to talk about findings. So it's very good for me to be here today.
SPEAKER_03:Well, we're giving you uh uh what we think is a large platform, and we're really excited about the conversation. So why don't we just start with something that will orient our listeners, which is just can you summarize the Ten to Men Research Project? What makes it unique and important in Australia, but also globally?
SPEAKER_01:I certainly can. Um before that though, I do building off your land acknowledgements, want to add my own, um, which I forgot to mention before. Uh so I am on the land of um I'm on Mianjan country, sorry, uh, which is the land of the Yagara and Taribor peoples. And I feel really fortunate to be here where I live. I have and I work from home and I have these two big beautiful gum trees out the front. And I really love that I get to spend my days working with those because they're such a grounding force, particularly on topic when I'm working on topics like intimate partner violence, right? Um, and so I'm really grateful for the traditional custodians of this land that tended to these lands. That means I get to appreciate and be grounded by these big, beautiful gum trees. Um, and so I want to pay my respects to any Indigenous peoples that are listening, as well as any um elders past, present, and emerging. So the Tentomen study, which uh just sort of that grounding around it. So Tender Men um is our shortened named and our catchy name for our national longitudinal study of male health here in Australia. So it's quite unique globally in that it's our largest longitudinal study on male health in the world in terms of size, um, so the number of participants, as well as how long it's been going for. So we started in 2013, or around 2013, 14, uh, with 16,000 boys and men that we recruited. And that's where the where the name 10 to men comes from, because our youngest boys were the age 10, and our eldest men were around the age of 55. So now we're 10 years on, and our age range is about 20 to around 65. So we started with recruiting 16,000 boys and men, and we've followed them with surveys over, not followed them, followed them. We've followed them with surveys over regular intervals uh over the past 10 years, and um have, you know, the thing about 10 to men is it is a male health study, but we're quite broad in the way that we consider health. So it's not just physical health, it's not just mental health. It, you know, we we really are all encompassing in the systems that impact and intersect with health, the um certain behaviors, you know, we have measures around use of intimate partner violence, we have measures around gambling, drug use, alcohol use. So it's quite, it's quite broad in that respect. And it gives us a lot of power to be able to look at what does impact male health and how can we how can we support men's health um in particular. And then more widely from that, how do we support families and communities and and sort of starting to build out. So that's what I personally really love about the study and find it quite unique, other than the sheer volume and size, which those numbers is usually what people find very impressive. Uh, but but for me, it's the breadth.
SPEAKER_02:I really I I have to give Australia their kudos. No, no joke, seriously, because we work all over the world, and I know there's a lot of really good research happening, but consistently there's a lot of very ecosystemic, as I call it, research about people's experience and where they're experiencing that violence or where they're perpetrating that violence and the and the causal or correlated factors that are linked to that. So, with that, do you want to do you want to talk a little bit about some of the most striking findings and of which was self-reported, 35% of men were perpetrating violence. And and just to put a pin in that for people, if that's self-reported, that means that the the prevalence is much higher, but we don't know that exact prevalence. So would you just uh give us a little bit of information on that?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's exactly it. So um our study, given that Tentamin is a longitudinal study, that means that we can get a picture over time. So the span of time that we're looking at is nine years. And uh in 2022, that's where we have that figure of 35%. So one in three men in our sample by 2022 had said they had ever used forms of intimate partner violence, and the forms that we measured were um sort of related to emotional type abuse, physical type violence, and sexual violence. So, in our sample, based off our estimates, 35% of men or one in three have said that that they've used that. And you're exactly right, it is it is self-report. And when we were going into this, and I suppose what's actually quite helpful context for the listeners is when we were planning this study, which is about a year ago now, um, so we have the data and then at at the Australian Institute Family Studies, we plan our research products that we're going to put out in our research reports, and this is one of them. And so I had just come off the back of doing another um report on intimate partner violence, but within 18 to 19 year olds with a different longitudinal study that we have. Um, and so I'd sort of come into the Tenderman team, and the landscape at the time within Australia is that our prime minister had come out and said that gender-based violence is a national crisis. And, you know, that's this ecosystem that we're operating in. There's there is these real just devastating forms of violence happening in our communities, impacting women, families, and we're sitting on this longitudinal data that can help give more understanding as to how widespread this is from a self-report perspective. And initially, you were like, Oh, you know, it's self-report. People, when we're in initial talks, they're like, Well, how how honest are men going to be? And we said, Well, we don't know. But what we what we do know is we do have this number of men saying that that they have engaged in these behaviors. So I'll go back to the longitudinal nature of this, and which is that it's over time. So 2022, we had one in three. At the start of the study, which was 2013-14, uh, we had around 24% of men who had said they had ever used. And uh something that's been picked up a lot, and something that is quite powerful with this study is that we're able, because it's a nationally based study, so it's a population-based study. And in the in the family domestic violence space, intimate partner violence space, a lot of studies are very person-centered and lived experience-centered, and we need that. But the power that population-based studies give us is that ability to estimate out to the wider population. And we're able to do that and get a number based on our data of how many men we would expect start using intimate partner violence per year on average. And I just want to spend a moment with a couple of numbers here for people and trying to contextualize them. Um, you know, I think it's really important that we don't just sit with numbers and think about, oh, that's a lot, and more try and visualize what that might look like. So then based on our estimates, the number of men that start using intimate partner violence per year is 120,000. Now that's a large number. But if we put that into perspective, and I do note that you know we have you have quite a range of listeners across Australia and the US, and I'm not the most sporty person, but I am very proficient with Google. So I'm going to compare to stadiums. Now, for Australia, we have the Melbourne Cricket Ground, that is our largest stadium and the numbers, 120,000 men start using each year, based on our estimates on average. That is equivalent to the Melbourne Cricket Ground being filled 1.2 times. And so if anyone's listening who's ever been there, you're sitting there, stadium's filled, and then add about another 20%. For now, like I said, I'm not super sporty, but even the Super Bowl has made its way into my lexicon and into my consciousness. So I looked up uh the Superdome where uh the Super Bowl was held this year, and it's 1.5 times that. So again, we're filling the Superdome and then we're adding another half. And so that's of the men that we are going to start using. Yeah, I have to see.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I want to put it. I want to put a pin in that because a lot of times people will stop there and they'll say, whoa, that's terrible. You know, that many men a year start using violence in their families. But but I wanna, for the policymakers, for the public health people, put a pin in the projection of that many men perpetrating violence, and then attach that to the Australian child abuse study, and then do a numerical real analysis of how much that's gonna cost your populations in productivity, in loss, education loss, skills loss, disability, right? Because these things cause disabilities, unhousedness, prison. Okay, it's a very costly thing. And I really want to just put that back in there because a lot of times we pivot to the fact of men using violence, but we don't look at the full implications of that within our populations and the costs associated, which are huge.
SPEAKER_03:So, so Carly, can I ask, you know, the obvious question? One of the questions that's there is is it in 2013 the number was 24, and in 20 uh 2022 it was 35%, if I'm remembering correctly. And is that I guess the question is, is that all attributable to the aging of the cohort, or is there other factors, or is it hard to know? Because if I'm understanding the study design, it's the same group of boys and men aging over time. So you're you're not adding in people, you probably lost people, right? And yes, so we hope that the 10-year-olds are less likely to be perpetrating intimate partner violence, and now I'm 20, and so you have a larger pool of possible perpetrators. Let's just simplify it that way. Is that the best explanation you've come up with for that increase, or are there other things you can point to?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. No, I know that's that's this the thing about the data is yeah, so we are asking, have we ever done this thing? And what we're getting is cohort that we're at we didn't ask this question of at the beginning, because 10-year-olds aren't in relationships, right? Mostly. We we didn't measure the 10-year-olds. So we are getting over time these additional men that and when you're in your 20s, that's your real like I have a psychology background, and and the emerging adulthood, young adulthood space is sort of my bread and butter. And so, you know, for me that that 20-year-old space is where you are starting to form yourself as an intimate partner. Um, and my initial inkling, I suppose, um, a bit like yours, David, was that what where where's age sitting in this? We're we're kind of just getting extra men. Is it is it this? Is it the extra men? Um, and then once we broke it down by age, you know, certainly we did have an increase with age. It wouldn't, you know, that that would be odd if that didn't impact it, unless we had a whole bunch of 20-year-olds who decided they don't want to be in relationships. But um, so we certainly had that, but we did still see growth across other age groups. And I can't quite remember the numbers, but I do remember going, huh? Okay, this isn't quite just people aging into relationships, and now we're able to capture that. That's certainly a big part of it. What I we didn't go to look at and wasn't within the scope of this study was all right, well, what else might that be? And what might be intersecting that? Right. But there's the power to do that in the data still.
SPEAKER_02:Well, part of the study was over COVID lockdown. So there's also potential increase there too. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So I I have another question going backing up a little bit to the origin of this, the the the intimate partner component in the study. So this is a men's health study. Yeah, a lot of people will not define intimate partner perpetration as a men's health issue. Now, I disagree with that, but it's a common stance. So, can you walk me through the thinking on the research team side or the funders or whomever, to say, yes, we want to include a question about male intimate partner perpetration in a men's health study? And part two is have you gotten any pushback because you did that?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you know, it is whilst I wasn't on the study team in 2013, 14, and I wish I could be a fly on the wall in some of the decisions. I think with any longitudinal study, you wish you could be a fly on the wall at all times to be like, why was this done at certain times? But you know, what what's like what I sort of said in the beginning around tenderness and the beauty of it is that it we do conceptualize health quite broadly. And you're exactly right, David. There can be this pushback where people don't conceptualize or see intimate partner violence and trying to support the health of men, which you know I'll get into a little bit later around the findings we had to do with mental health, but trying to support the health of men to reduce their use of violence or to not even have it start in the first place, and how that then links to safer families and safer communities and healthier families and healthier communities. And for me, you know, that's where I really nest the impact of this work and why coming from a male health space and thinking about intimate partner violence is a crucial proportion of it because we need to understand what's going to sort of help and support men and and change the change the tide of the way that you know I suppose mental health-related behaviors, which sometimes can be aggression, right? And not having the coping skills um to be able to safely and respectfully be in relationships. Um and that is around supporting men's health.
SPEAKER_02:It absolutely is uh part of supporting men's health. And the the the reality and and some of the findings in here point to the fact that if you have a parent in the home who's perpetrating violence, that those are learned behaviors, those are learned coping behaviors, and that those behaviors will show up in your intimate relationships. Having a stable, safe parent in your home who is a man in particular, seems to be protective against male violence. So I think we really have to, we really have to keep our eyes on that prize.
SPEAKER_03:But stop the president, stop the present. So what we're saying is having and and Carly, please kind of put this in the research studies language, but I really want to like it's such an obvious thing. Yeah, and I think we don't talk about it enough, to be honest. Yeah, but but there is something about it's not just I think a lot of times, and again, please correct me, Carly, if if I'm misunderstanding the research, but it's not just about the presence because a lot of times it's it's a simplistic what I would offer is a simplistic binary absence or presence of a father or father figure in the home. And again, it just kind of I just kind of get it, I get kind of tired and angry at the same time. Is there what you're tired and angry that I get when people say, well, uh, father absence? Yeah, well, some fathers who are violent, it's good for kids not to be close to. And I'm just gonna say, and I've written about this, yeah, you know, it's about the quality of parenting by any parent.
SPEAKER_02:Nobody should want a violent parent to have custody of a child.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, or and if they do, there's something wrong with that, or that or that that contact is gonna be automatically just the presence by itself is automatically something good. And and then we have to look at quality of behavior. And and your study, the tender men study, did look at, right, did ask questions about that quality. So can you speak to that connection between the quality of the the fathering that these men and boys received and and outcomes for them?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. And this was the part of the study that from the very beginning, when I was looking through our data and and thinking, you know, thinking about what's going to best serve, and particularly that time in that context of gender-based violence being a national crisis, what's going to best still is, but being dinged one by our prime minister, what's going to best serve the Australian public? And and particularly what can the institute that I work at, where we're focused on families, what can we bring to that? And it's that it's that father-son bond. And it's it's the con it's it's the it's knowing more about that. So the finding itself is that men who strongly agree, so they strongly felt that in their childhood they received affection from a father or father figure with 48%. So 48%, that is tell you, larger effect sizes than I got in my PhD thesis. Uh, that's a that's quite an effect size. That's what you you know, you really want to write home about. And I have, my mother has received a lot of information. Um 48% less likely to ever use intimate partner violence compared to men who strongly disagreed. And so, what does that look like? It's affection. It's affection. Affection, it's it's exactly it's but what is affection? What were we asking about? So this is things like, you know, my father was warm. Right. My father showed me, you know, respectful affection. And and for me, I think it really lies at the heart of modeling, you know, boys can't be what they can't see. So they there's when we're thinking about that space, and and Ruth, you brought it up around a lot of there's a lot of research into, and and we know being in a home, being exposed to forms of violence in the family home is linked to later use of that. And this is where I think our finding is um a nice addition to that, because it's not only if you're exposed to these behaviors and you see that ways of coping and and reacting within a relationship, but also where I see our finding fitting in is it's showing that if you understand and you're and it's modeled how to give and receive love that is warm from a masculine figure and that feels safe and is respectful, those men are less likely to perpetrate. So there's something in that.
SPEAKER_02:So, so I'd I'd like to kind of reframe that. And I know that that's the the language of the study. And and as a survivor, I don't I know that people who experience violence don't go on to perpetrate violence necessarily. There's other factors involved. A lot of times that has to do with entitlements, okay. And it has to learn learn behavior as well. So, so for me, I love to focus on the the reality, and and it's well studied, that we learn our behavioral patterns from our parents, we learn our coping mechanisms from our parents, and that and I'd like to speak about those male victims because they are male victims. We're experiencing massive intergenerational and cross-generational effects of violence, of violence being uptaken as the way of life, as being able to run society, right? And that damages men and women both. It's not singularly damaging, but it it damages men in a very particular way because of who they are and what entitlements they have in society. So I really want people to pivot from the thought of people immediately being on a pathway of perpetration if they've experienced abuse in their homes and pivot over more to how do we embody and teach these behaviors not only to people who are perpetrating violence so that they can be measured for their willingness to change those behaviors and a capacity to, but also so that we can help children heal from the violence that they've experienced in their home with concrete, tangible ways for coping with anxiety, stress, fear, lack of knowing, and all of the things that we know precipitate that violent response in human beings, particularly men.
SPEAKER_03:I think that um, you know, there was a campaign in Western Australia a number of years ago called Freedom from Fear. And what they found was that they could get men to call up and seek help for intimate partner violence perpetration with the message that your abusive behavior to your partner is going to hurt your kids. And what I'm thinking about, and it was very successful in a lot of ways, and got people, men helpers to call up hotlines and ask for help. I think what what I see here is a campaign, which is to say if you're warm in your parenting, if you're caring in your parenting, if you're safe in your parenting. You're safe in your parenting as a father. But I like that that you were so specific. It's it was warm. It was warmth, there was respect. You there was real operational terms to it. That if you do that, your kid's gonna have a better future, better relationships, less likely to be lonely, less likely to experience because we're gonna talk in a minute about connections between depression, perpetration, and and suicide. And so, you know, that if if I'm a dad or dad to be, that one of the messages could and should be, so we should be looking at our health visitors and our our perinatal messaging to men, which is this is this is this is about your child's future, socially, emotionally, economically, relationally, their family, which is show warmth, show respect. And your kids are like much likelier. I'm gonna add this much likelier.
SPEAKER_02:Give people those behaviors, empower them in those behaviors, don't leave it there. Because as a person who grew up in an institution, a lot of violence, respect can mean something very different to a violent person. Okay, affection means something very different to a violent person. So, really describe the behaviors and the outcomes, which are that we should have safe, healthy children who are not physically or emotionally or intellectually harmed by their parents' behaviors. They're not put at a disadvantage by that behavior, they're not harmed, traumatized physically, emotionally, sexually by those behaviors.
SPEAKER_03:So I have a Carly a question about that part of the study. And again, I want for people who like just can't say it enough. Warm paternal warmth, care, respect equals children who are much, much less likely to grow up and be abusive and violent. Um boys.
SPEAKER_01:And I think so. I will just add, and sorry to take you off your thought, David, but it's exact I think it's exactly right, Ruth. It is about empowerment and empowerment of fathers. And within I, you know, I can only speak to the um Australian system. We do have support for parents as they become new parents. Um a lot of the parental care, understandably, is geared towards maternal care and and and supporting mothers as it needs to be. They're the ones going through a, they made a human, they're the ones who are going through a major medical, medical event. But but what I think this points to is there is that capacity that for new fathers in particular, and we know this across the life, a lot across the life course with transition periods. Transition periods, such as going into fatherhood for the first time, are really powerful intervention points because it's a space where your brain is already opening up and changing, and and it's a it's a time where you are more likely to learn and and be able to engage in behavior change. So the thing where I think father new fatherhood holds that power a lot. And based off this finding is let's empower men to be warm and affectionate parents. Uh, let's show them how to do that, not just tell them, oh, be warm, be affectionate. You're exactly right. That can be entirely different to everyone. But there can be very simple and effective messaging around what warm, safe, respectful love and affection for a Child looks like and the way that you do that. And I think that we could be doing more to serve new fathers in that space and like, you know, new mothers too. How do you parent? You don't get a book, right?
SPEAKER_03:Well, but you're you're right. Your Australian context is similar to what we see around the globe where home visitors, health visitors, whatever they're called, perinatal care, for whether they're high risk or for for every population, it's primarily centered on mother and child. And I've done work in that space with uh health visitors geared to working with fathers, and it's it's rare and far and few in between. So, quick question before we move to the mental health piece of this. Um, did that definition of positive um uh fathering include how that father treated the child's other parents?
SPEAKER_01:Or was it okay, so it didn't it didn't get that far to look at the no, no, it was purely the the father of father figure son relationship or child relationship. Um what we I'm pretty certain I'll need to go back and check, but what we don't have in the study, and what I certainly didn't model in the study was the parental relationship. Uh, we do know that's that's important. That is something that we have data on in some of our other studies um here at the institute. But um, yeah, within this study, it's not something that that we have in the data able to model, but it's certainly something that moving forward, um, particularly as there's greater appetite. Uh earlier on, David, um, you know, you spoke about the inclusion of these questions in a malhealth study and sort of where we move forward with. So our study is funded by government. Uh, and as we move forward with our government partners and funders, is there's this increased appetite. And I think a lot of this is born out of the Australian Child Matreatment Study as well, because we understand more of that from that magnificent study. There's more of an appetite for expanding our questions and understanding a lot more. So hopefully we are able to get retrospective measures of well, how was your parents' relationship and continue to build on our findings and continue to add pieces to this puzzle that we're all collectively working on across the globe to try and piece together and then tackle?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Now you had found a high correlation between depressive symptoms and IPV. Do you want to break that down for our listeners?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely. So we yes, we looked at depressive symptoms, and um, like I've mentioned, the study is longitudinal. And what we're able to do with that is take our first point in time, so men's experience of depression depressive symptoms at 2013-14, and then look at how that's related to their later use of intimate partner violence. So, uh what we're able to do is find that men who were had shown mild depressive symptoms around 2013 were 32% more likely to go on and use intimate partner violence. And then men who had moderate or severe depressive symptoms at 2013-14 were 62% more likely to go on. Now, before I think before I move on, there's a really important caveat I want to put here, which is that this doesn't mean that all men who are experiencing depressive symptoms are going to go on and use violence in their relationships. What is underlying this is I think something that we were touching on before as well, which is around men's coping, how we help men with their psychological distress and and you know that that those basics around mental health support. And I think whilst we're looking at depressive symptoms, which in our study is uh operationalized quite broadly um in terms of what you're experiencing, it's it's pointing to a struggle there. There is something going on in their life that that where they're experiencing greater psychological distress. And and then that's linking in some way. We didn't, we haven't yet, we can, hopefully, we didn't yet, funding pending, we didn't get look at, you know, what are some factors that may explain that relationship? But we certainly have the power to, and it's something we would be really interested to going into this day. So we so I didn't, so we could have, yeah, absolutely, in a time perspective, gone your um affection with your father and then depressive symptoms and from there, we didn't. But what I can say is that they were all in the same. So when you're doing, I'm gonna get a little bit technical for a moment, uh, but I'll do it as simple as possible. I come from very humble roots, and if I can't explain it to myself actually half the time, then I certainly can't explain it to anyone else. But basically, when you uh when I was running these analyses, there's certain different techniques that you can do. And one of the ones, the analyses that I did is I had um all the predictors. So a predictor is something like depressive symptoms, suicidal ideation, um, social support and paternal affection in that study. They were all put in at the same time. So when you're running a model, think of it like there's only a certain amount of percentage or or or power that each predictor can take up. And so when they're all in the same model together, they're kind of fighting for that power. They're fighting to be like, I'm giving this much, I'm this important. So what we did find is with our with depressive symptoms and paternal affection in the same model, they were both uniquely related to intimate partner violence. One didn't sort of overshadow the other. And so what that tells us as researchers is that they're they are uniquely related to intimate partner violence. They may be interrelated, but what you know, what I can strongly say here is that the two of them are going to have their own relationship with intimate partner violence. And um, you know, I suppose the common common sense, and when we start to kind of hypothesize and reason, we can go, okay, yeah, but hopefully the men who were who did receive more affection are doing are doing better psychologically. We would we would hope that. Um, but it's I guess what I'm trying to get at is that it is um I suppose strong, not strong, but it's a good indication um that they that they both uniquely predicted as well. And it wasn't just one thing taking with the other.
SPEAKER_02:I threw a curveball in there because I was very curious, because I'm curious about the experience of the, you know, these are these are humans going through this, and some of them were 10 years old when they started. And if they were struggling with depression, they were most likely struggling with depression because there was violence or abuse in their home, which I don't want to lose sight of because a lot of times research can feel very um uh linear and it can feel extremely uh, you know, reductionistic in its focus. And we love to be very much uh about the experience, and that speaks to prevention, because a lot of times people will start to pivot and say, well, we just need to treat these depressive symptoms rather than really reaching back into the fact that those people are experiencing those symptoms because of the exact same forms of maltreatment, and that what they need is they need skills, they need, they need behavioral accountability, they need assistance, they need support. And that that person growing up in that home with that father who is or mother who's abusing them needs accelerated support in order for them to be able to thrive and survive. And that we should not look at that in a way where we're limiting their self-determination or prejudging them, but that we're simply providing them with the skills that we know that they will need for life that they're not getting in those environments. So I'm always very curious about the experience not only of survivors who are experiencing violence, but those who are perpetrating violence because they're human beings, because they're our loved ones, because there are relations, because there are family, and because really understanding how to help them is the least that we could do. Really understanding how to help them is the least we could do. So that's my soapbox.
SPEAKER_01:I think that's no, I I mean I like that soapbox, and I'm standing right there with you, you know, as you were talking. I was building my own little same-height soapboxes joining you because because you know, it's and this is something that working on population level data, we don't all we're not always able to get to that experience.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And this is where though, and a philosophy I take into research is that we're all adding small pieces to a puzzle and where there's that complementariness. The last, you know, the what we what I wouldn't want policymakers and practitioners to come out of this is go, oh yeah, well, just fix male depression and everything will be great. Yeah. That's not right, that that's not the answer. No one thing is the answer. We need we need tailored interventions that are appropriate and meeting people where they are. And I think with the depressive symptoms, and and I've I've I've put this in the in the paper around, well, what can policymakers do? What can this mean for um practitioners and the way that we support men is realistically within Australia we have um a mental health care program. So basically you go to your general practitioner and you say, I would like to get set up on a mental health care program, and then you can get um visits with a psychologist or a counsellor that are rebated by the government. So the government will pay part of the fee. So it's kind of a part fee thing. And in some cases, you can get um the fee completely covered, but they're very quite that it's quite difficult to find a psychologist or a counselor that's going to do that at the moment. I could say a bit of a shortage. Anyway, that's Australia context. Um so with that though, if we're getting men in clinics, which first off, there's a different hurdle there, and we do have, we do, I will spread our research. We do have another paper around uh service use and barriers to that. But if we're able to get men and we're seeing that, okay, on our screeners for mental health, they are screening a little bit high, right? Their scores are a little bit high. Then in that space, there is the power to go, okay, well, maybe they also need these additional support services. So we're not even necessarily asking them about their use of violence. If they are using violence, we could in that space if that's the if that's the right relationship that you have with the practical practitioner has with the patient. But it gives us another another place for us to be able to flag and then support men in the way that they're needed, um, and and be able to pick up um, you know, potentially in a cohort of men that can be supported to not use intercounter violence. Right.
SPEAKER_03:So I, you know, I want to in a moment turn to the the very powerful conversation about suicide and and and the data in the the study as well about that. But I want to explore this point for a minute that you just bring up. One of the things that always interests me is that in the discussion about men's mental health and depression, there's frequently the assertion or the data, and I don't want to say it's an assertion, but the data that says that men's depressive symptoms present differently than women's symptoms, speaking really broadly. And what almost always you'll see are these two words or these two phrases, men will present with more anger and more externalizing behavior.
SPEAKER_02:Does that mean violence?
SPEAKER_03:Well, this is the interesting thing, which is sort of you know, I mean, externalizing behavior is often, you know, when you dig down, will be risk taking, right? Aggression, suicide, uh, not suicidality, not aggression, substance use, or some of the big the big the big behavioralists think boys in school who get in trouble for aggression, you know, that that the old saw is you know, girls internalize, boys externalize, right? And so that's you know, that's but the data that people who have studied this really kind of keep going back to that boys incredibly simplistic, but it but it but the males depressive that anybody who's studying the male issue of male depression will say, well, you need to understand that male males present differently, their depression differently. Yes, they do through overworking, through, through drinking, through uh anger. It's not it's not usually not said violence, but then externalizing behaviors. And I'm just wondering if there's anything, Carly, in the research that kind of explores this this kind of connection between that depressive presentation that men often have and intimate partner violence perpetration.
SPEAKER_01:So, not in our study itself, but I do know that um within Australia, this is um, and we have a lot of the world leading experts actually working on this in Australia at the moment. So the Movember Institute in particular, um, and uh Dr. Zach Slider is doing some really important work around this and and trying to, and he's a clinician himself, right? So this is something he's observed in his own practice. And and Zach was a um contributor on this research report um that we did. Um but so you know they're they're starting to produce and do some really important work trying to understand this. So I think in the future, what we're gonna have the power to do, and particularly with the future of Tender Man, is is you know, better measure and understand male depression as informed by this work, this additional work that's going on, and then be able to link and think about the different presentations of depression and and not take as much of that simplistic view. You know, we we may be able to have quite a gamut of depressive symptoms, some that are externalizing type symptoms, some that are internalizing type symptoms, and start to break that down as to how that's related to specific intimate partner violence behaviors. So the number overall, but then specific types of intimate partner violence as well. Right.
SPEAKER_03:And for me, you know, one of the things I want the listeners to be thinking about is you know, how do we not silo these conversations? Which, you know, and we're having Zach Seidler speak at our conference, be part of a panel with one of your colleagues, Sean Martin, and and also Steve Roberts from Monash University, to talk about this connection. You know, we're really kind of interested in getting a constructive dialogue going on. And so one is to not silo it, and and particularly, you know, obviously with intimate partner violence, there's a deep interest we have into the survivors and victims of how they're impacted by that behavior. But what I would offer is that the conversation about men's depression isn't just one about um men's symptoms or diagnosis or how to identify and how do you treat it, but understanding how men's depressive symptoms impact um their partners. And I think there needs to be an exploration about when does that look like intimate partner violence? When is it intimate partner violence? When does men's suicidal threats, when are they controlling to other people? When are they scared to other people? I mean, sometimes we get caught up in the labels versus the behaviors and the impact. And I know there's research, and I've just started reading it about women's experience of male partners' depressions, and they'll talk about how much caregiving they do and how much they negotiate around those symptoms and how they're impacted by a partner's depression, especially suicidality. So I for me, I really want to see this. Is my wish. This is not my soapbox. I don't have a soapbox. Would I be happier if I had a soapbox? You might be. Okay, maybe I'll have a soapbox.
SPEAKER_00:They're fun. They're very but this is my I'm a short person though, so I love having a soapbox. I get to I get to see people's heads a little, maybe.
SPEAKER_03:Maybe this is my unicorn, this is my dream, but that that this convert, these conversations are much more integrated about how to men's depressive symptoms not only impact them, but impact other people in their lives, their kids, their partners. Um, and then also when we get to suicidality, to have this really fearless conversation about that is really kind of cares for the men who are suicidal, but also understands that when suicidal threats are made in the context of relationship, they're one of the most devastating, controlling behaviors you can engage in. If you leave me, I'm gonna kill. And I know there's gonna be people upset about with me tying these things together because there's some people saying there's a real crisis in men's suicidality, no question about it. There's a lack of attention to it on a lot of levels. It's something we I feel comfortable pointing to that happens at rates two to three times women's, you know, um committing a suicide. And um so it's a real thing that we can point to say we need to do better with, but we cannot be afraid. This is my soapbox now. Do it, we cannot be afraid to say that those things also we can care about both the person who's depressed and suicidal and the person that loves them and feels controlled and scared. I think we can do that. Maybe I'm unrealistic, maybe I'm a dreamer, maybe I'm not the only one.
SPEAKER_02:But that sounds like a we can walk and chew, you know. I think we can walk and chew gum and you know, write at the same time.
SPEAKER_03:We can certainly text and drive at the we're not supposed to text and drive at the same time. No, so can you before we move off of this? Can you um that was my soapbox, but can you talk about the study and the linkages identified between suicide ideation and intimate partner violence perpetration?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah. Um, and you know, um picking up on kind of what you said there, David, I also want to acknowledge, and and this is where thinking around our research questions, the the this question around suicide um was really important for us. Um, is that yeah, we do have a male suicide problem. There they it is, oh my little voice is cracking, it is higher amongst men. And we need to think about that. But it doesn't happen siloed. These aren't men, you know, in our study, these aren't just men living in the wilderness alone, not interacting with people, with anything. And I think this is where that, you know, that stadium analogy I used at the beginning, if we're thinking it's that many men in the stadium, then it is at a minimum. So we just measured ever. Have you ever done this? We don't know how many relationships the men had done this in, but it's a minimum that many women. So then if you extrapolate that out again, if you think of everyone going home after a sport game, they're getting picked up by family, they're getting transport, they're going home, they're going to other people, it starts building out, right? And I think it's, you know, like you're touching on there, David, with with the um suicide amongst men and how that intersects in an intimate partner context is is something that is definitely there's a lot being unpacked there in the coercive control space because there it can be used in a controlling space. We we know that, we see that in the research. Um, you know, David, I know that both you and I are at a conference at the end of um October in WA in Western Australia around coercive control, and I'll be speaking a bit to this there. Um, but but it can be used in that in that context. And if we as practitioners and researchers are continuing and trying to unpack this, you know, what that men's uh suicidal behaviors and thoughts can be used in um an intimate partner violence situation, if we're trying to unpack that and figure it out how is it for the people who are their partners trying to figure this out between okay, I want to support this person, I love this person, but then is this it's it's it's impossible. And so that that's where we need we can't be afraid to have these conversations. And I think again, I'm listening to you guys, I'm building soapboxes side by side because now I'm next to your soapbox, David. I'm in agreement in that that we need to have these conversations. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So do you have stats to share at all out of this study before we move on? I do because it's absolutely we're on our soapbox and we want no, it's we're all no, we're having the air is is heady and exciting.
SPEAKER_00:And I want to I want to let's get some numbers back to ground to grounding us.
SPEAKER_03:Before we move on, I want to you know give our listeners some numbers because there are numbers in the study that connect the suicide ideation to IPv perpetration. So, what do you learn?
SPEAKER_01:Yes. So we learned that um men who had suicidal thoughts, plans, or attempts. So that's the combination. So any of the three, sorry, not the combination three, any of the three. So had you ever thought about um suicide, have you ever planned, have you ever attempted, were 47% more likely to later use intimate partner violence. So if we compare that back to our depressive symptom findings, which was 62% for mild or moderate, 32% for depressive symptoms. And again, these are all in the same predicted model. So these are we know these are independent relationships, irrespective of what's going on with depression. Men who have suicidal thoughts, plans, or attempts are 47% in our study more likely to go in and use intimate partner violence. Um and so again, this is again, but for me, what this is pointing to when I think of all of that together is it's back to that mental health space and supporting men and coping skills um and our coping mechanisms and the way that we can support men to better cope with their psychological distress.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I know that not everybody who uh who has suicidal ideation is externally violent towards other people. But what we really need to hold compassion for is that if you're willing to harm self in that way, and if you're willing to threaten it as a tool of control over another person, then there should be no surprise that one is willing to use that violence on others as well. So though there's lots of people who don't have that tendency, we really need to understand the interpersonal and the personal realities of internal violence and how that is manifesting and how we're not we're not supporting people because although these conversations are really important for population studies, what we're not really getting down into are the very personal factors and the social factors. We often pivot to the person and the individual in our solution making, but there's a lot of social, societal, economic factors that are feeding into this reality in the way that we treat men as objects of production, um, and in the way that we dehumanize uh people and in how they're experiencing violence in their own homes, in their own schools, in their own communities, and not really being supported and attended to as human beings in a nurturing way.
SPEAKER_03:I for me, you know, I think about uh what is uh a simple idea of intervention or prevention. And and again, I think it's how do we in this part center men saying if if based on this study data, what it's suggesting to me, and Carly, you you've pointed this, I think, as well, which is is if we are doing mental health interventions with men for depression, for suicidality, that we can be proactive and should be proactive to a minimum be educating them to what what that might look in terms of progression or their future or the possibility that that this may happen or they may it may lead to this. And we don't know the mechanism, but what we can tell you is you're a greater risk, just like you had this happen to you, you're greater risk for cancer. You know, that we don't need to know that all the medical mechanisms, the chemical mechanisms and say we have studies that correlate this, so therefore you're greater risk. So we suggest you do these things to reduce your risk. That we should be proactive in that space. So and and and that and that that the message should be that that if you don't address it, it's likely to accelerate your depression. If you're concerned that you came to me because of your depressive symptoms. Right. And now we add you being abusive to your partner to the mix in your life, your depression is not likely to get better, it's likely to get worse. Your your social connections are likely to atrophy. You're you're now gonna not have the loving support that you might have in your life right now. And so we're really kind of we we can package this, I can at least. You know, that it's it's a that it's a men's health intervention to say we all need to be concerned about your potential for perpetrating IPV if you're depressed, if you're suicidal. So I really see it as a point of of really logical, everybody's gonna join me in this, intervention and and a possible way to really stem both depression, suicide, and and IPv all at once. I think it's very efficient, actually. I would I well I I think it's the beauty of the the the the study and the work, which is to say this is what it points to.
SPEAKER_04:Right.
SPEAKER_03:So anyway, that's my you know, it's it's uh I'm not on a soapbox anymore. I'm in this, I'm in the kitchen up to my I'm using the soap to clean the dishes.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, and you know, get ready for me.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, it's just soap. So I think we're gonna try to wrap up here, Carly. If if if you're okay with that, there's so much here.
SPEAKER_04:There's so much.
SPEAKER_03:You know, and I really recommend people go to the 10 to men website and look at the studies. There's yeah, there's there's the the data, but then as you point out, there's analysis and reports come out all the time. Correct? You know, and and and on gambling, on on uh um what are some of the other topics?
SPEAKER_01:Uh we just released one on um uh the health of new fathers, which has been really interesting. And that was just in the past month. Another one on men's chronic conditions over time, because we have we measure, you know, so extensively around physical and mental health conditions and the intersections of um you know social and economic factors with that. So it's we are you know banging out papers every year that are just really we we kept keep try to keep them very topical and like I said at the beginning, all for the public good. That's what drives us, that's we want to see families' lives improved. We we have, you know, this um our our our remit is is to support families, Australian Institute of Family Studies. How can we support families to thrive? Yeah, which involves men.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. Well, yes. It's so interesting to me that that we often do these family interventions and it's it's it excludes men. And that's just crazy. And it's still happening everywhere. So we would love to just hear your reflections based off of the study. And we usually ask, what does this mean for survivors? And I'm gonna ask both questions actually. What does this mean for men in particular who feel that they're at risk for this violence because of their past or because of their depressive symptoms or because of prior IPv perpetration? What what would you say to those men?
SPEAKER_01:You know, I think there's a real the real strength in population research because it gives us those touch points, you know, with what David was saying before, I really saw it as we could empower men through education. Of we, we, you know, we have some numbers to show that you maybe uh more likely because you because you're experiencing maybe this additional psychological distress, you may be more likely to go on and use violence. We we've we found that in this population level data. And you know, I think though what that does, and and I feel like this is a bit of an undercurrent in many ways of our conversation today, is this it isn't so much around that specific lived human experience. And so for me, you know, I don't I don't want people to walk away and go, oh my goodness, I'm gonna this is I'm gonna become this thing or um I'm going to to start using violence because I've had these experiences. I think it's it's back to that empowerment of we as humans can grow and change and develop. It's at our very core, but also we can't do that without each other. And I think that this is this part the part of the study that I haven't spoken to today, which is we have we have factors that we know are going to help. It's not just what happened in your childhood. It's not just your paternal affection which is largely out of your control. We also found that social support, you know, if you have strong social support the men in our study, they're 26% less likely to start using intimate partner violence. That's something that that's within that that power that's something that as communities and we know as humans we are where we are because we're able to form social connections and live in groups and that's so essential to who we are. So I think for me it's not just about that onus on the individual it's also on the onus of us as communities and as social groups to rally around each other and rally around our men and support our men because I think I said it earlier but if we have healthy men we can have healthy and safe communities. And so you know accessing those parts of support definitely do it if you're listening to this or you know someone and and you feel like they they need support there's global supports everywhere in terms of intimate partner violence and support helplines but also don't be afraid to reach out to people and if you don't have people then you know start to think about where where is my where is my social sphere? What what supports can I access um I think is really important for men.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And and I and I often ask the survivor question but I'm gonna throw another one in there what would you say to to systems and to professionals and to policymakers about what we need to do better in order to support men and to assist them in behaviors which lead to violence look I think based off our findings what we need to do is take a wider approach.
SPEAKER_01:So we're not just focusing on the onuses on the individual yes these are people who are still making a choice to use violence we can't forget that right but there is and as we know and as your podcast has unpacked in so many different ways there is so much that goes into that beforehand during after so we need to take a larger systems approach we need to look at how do we tackle mental health for men how do we support mental health for men how do we address the the you know um men's suicide rates that that are not going down how do we support that you know David you mentioned before around well maybe it's quite efficient and I agree with you how do we how do we bring all these facets together to support men and then also how do we build social supports we're currently you know we we're seeing all the time a male health loneliness epidemic but falling into an epidemic and that's not lost to me when I said before go get some go you know go access your social supports men may not have that we're seeing that in the data so how do we promote that how do we build that for men how do we better empower parents um to be able to show warm and safe affection to their children and to each other it's it's so much wider than just on the individual and that's where I think we need to be looking at all the puzzle pieces and investing across that's great.
SPEAKER_03:Well Carly thank you so much I I just um I've learned so much. I mean I'd read the study and looked at it but just listening to you you have such a clear clean way and simple way and and clearly care about the not only the research but the results it has and the impact it has on individual lives and that comes through talking to you. And just want to thank uh the Australian Institute uh of family studies for for being brave and that's my take on it but really to bring in intimate partner violence into the men's health space learn so much set us up to learn more uh because it you're right that men's health is health for their families men's health is about health for society and communities and you you really um perpetrating intimate partner violence represents being out of balance with yourself with your with your family with your community um and and I can't think of a more basic definition of of having a mental health issue in some sense I know everybody again wouldn't agree with that I think so bringing these two things together is so logical for me and uh so thank you very much and we appreciate you being a guest on our show thank you Kelly thank you thank you for having me and you've been listening to another episode of Partner with Survivor you're still David Mandel I still David Mandadel you're still Ramundo Mandel and if you want to um please share this podcast please follow us on your podcast platform um please check us out at safety dot com and uh go to our virtual academy virtual at academy.safe at the institute dot com and again this topic you know look for it on our LinkedIn pages look to at our conference our Asia Pacific conference in in Sydney March 17th through 19th 2026 we're gonna be hitting this topic hard and I'm really excited about that.
SPEAKER_02:So I just want to add one thing yes for the people who hung in there and haven't stopped listening yet organize around our values not our trauma let's do it.
SPEAKER_03:There you go and we're up to you