Partnered with a Survivor: David Mandel and Ruth Reymundo Mandel

Season 6, Episode 23: Being Seen at Sixty: A Birthday Conversation About Vocation, Violence, and Hope

• Ruth Reymundo Mandel & David Mandel • Season 6 • Episode 23

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Rain on the windows, a century-old clock in the kitchen, and a plate of bacon by the coffee set and David's 60th birthday set the scene for a raw, open conversation about vocation, love, and the future of domestic violence–informed systems. We pause to reflect on 40 years of David's practice and what it means to be truly witnessed—then we get specific about how to build safer families by changing how professionals see, measure, and respond to harm.

We dig into a strengths-first approach that starts with “what’s going right” and why that’s not soft—it’s real and nurturing of change. By centering survivors’ experiences and recognising good practice in workers, we create solid ground for hard conversations about accountability. We talk candidly about the damage caused when systems remove children from safe parents because of a perpetrator’s behavior, and how the Safe & Together Model reframes responsibility, documents patterns of coercive control, and reduces unnecessary removals. Along the way, we explore an ethic of care that holds multiple truths: refuse to demonize people, refuse to whitewash harm, and persist in naming impact.

Looking ahead, we outline three big moves. First, scale with integrity: more certified trainers, partner agencies, and outcomes data across child protection and community services. Second, bridge men’s mental health with male violence prevention—a silo-busting agenda that catches risk earlier, supports men in crisis, and protects partners and kids. Third, bring practice into the workflow with Safety Nexus, a model-guided technology that streamlines documentation, builds decision maps, reduces moral injury and burnout, and delivers real-time quality assurance. We also share how “credible experts”—survivors and cultural leaders—are paid, respected, and embedded in design so solutions are ethical, non-extractive, and truly useful.

If you care about domestic violence, child safety, survivor-centered practice, men’s health, or building humane systems that actually work, this conversation will give you tools and hope. Subscribe, share with a colleague, and leave a review with one insight you’re taking back to your practice.

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Now available! Mapping the Perpetrator’s Pattern: A Practitioner’s Tool for Improving Assessment, Intervention, and Outcomes The web-based Perpetrator Pattern Mapping Tool is a virtual practice tool for improving assessment, intervention, and outcomes through a perpetrator pattern-based approach. The tool allows practitioners to apply the Model’s critical concepts and principles to their current case load in real

Check out David Mandel's new book Stop Blaming Mothers and Ignoring Fathers: How to Transform the Way We Keep Children Safe from Domestic Violence.

Visit the Safe & Together Institute website.

Start taking Safe & Together Institute courses.

Check out Safe & Together Institute upcoming events.

Ruth Reymundo:

And we're back.

David Mandel :

And we're back.

Ruth Reymundo:

And it's your birthday.

David Mandel :

Oh my God. Really? Are we doing this?

Ruth Reymundo:

This is the David's birthday episode.

David Mandel :

Are we really doing this?

Ruth Reymundo:

Yeah. It's raining outside. We're drinking our coffee.

David Mandel :

Yes.

Ruth Reymundo:

There's a plate of bacon next to us. Yes. There's a fire. I've got my candles lit. And it's your birthday. Your 60th birthday. Now, I believe.

David Mandel :

Okay.

Ruth Reymundo:

I believe in the power of reflection and visualization.

David Mandel :

Okay.

Ruth Reymundo:

And so I would love for you to reflect and then visualize what the future of safe and together and domestic violence-informed advocacy looks like in the world. Since this is your creation, your baby. And I know that work is not all of you because I'm your partner and I know a lot about you. But we raise kids together. We raise kids together.

David Mandel :

We do other things.

Ruth Reymundo:

We travel together. Yes. We work together.

David Mandel :

Okay.

Ruth Reymundo:

So anyway, happy birthday.

David Mandel :

Thank you very much. And and I was just ninja for those listening. I was just ninja. And what that means is Ruth just grabbed our rig, clipped it on. Clicked it on me and said we're going to do an old school podcast. But just how this started six years ago. And just because I have obsessive compulsive parts of me, we are partnered with a survivor.

Ruth Reymundo:

You know ritual.

David Mandel :

A ritual, thank you. It's a better way to put it. Ritual. I'm David Mandel, co-founder and CEO of Safety Other Institute.

Ruth Reymundo:

I'm Ruth Ramundo, and I am the co-owner and chief business development officer.

David Mandel :

And we are joining you from Tungstus Masako Land.

Ruth Reymundo:

We are.

David Mandel :

And it is a warming day. It is a warm day for winter here.

Ruth Reymundo:

Buckets of rain are coming down on the on the what once was snow and ice. Tundra. It was a literal tundra outside just a few days ago. So the land is transformed, and David Mandel is turning 60 years old.

David Mandel :

That's right. And we just want to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and and uh the Mustafa Texas people and indigenous elders, past, present, and emerging. So you're asking me to envision the next five years.

Ruth Reymundo:

I didn't say five years. I didn't specify a timeline. Ten years. But you can timeline it if you want to.

David Mandel :

Well, you know, the I think the first thing. What?

Ruth Reymundo:

Wait, wait, wait. I said first a reflection.

David Mandel :

Reflection on what?

Ruth Reymundo:

On what has been.

David Mandel :

Right. Okay. I don't know how I ended up here. And I love where I am. And I love what has happened, some of it just happened. I love what I've done. I love what we've done together. I love what the amazing people I have met and worked with, either immediately in the institute and beyond as certified trainers, as as partner agencies, as collaborators. I just think that one of the most amazing things has been the ability to have relationships with people in an area of work that is so deeply meaningful to me personally, and I hope to others. I think to others, but you know, it it's really been about the people. Both the people who I hope have been impacted, I know have been impacted. You know, I I can't, you know, I've been doing this 40 years, and there's nothing like hearing from a survivor that either something I wrote or something I said, or something that was done for them by a safe and dealer trained professional changed their lives in ways that are about keeping their kids with them.

Ruth Reymundo:

Right.

David Mandel :

You know. Right. So it there's n d d there's in fact I think that's even more exciting now. Because it means I know that more people you're the person talking to me today. I hope there's ten people behind you who are having the same experience. So I think that's you know, that's the biggest reflection I have. I also really feel excited. I don't know if this is a reflection. You have to tell me if I'm doing the assignment correctly.

Speaker 3:

That's not how it works.

David Mandel :

Just reflect whatever comes out comes out. Just I know, but just you know that I am you know really excited that that this is still an alive, vibrant, deeply meaningful, passionate vocation. I really use that in the like I don't even know how to use it. You know, the right word. I vocation has that for people who don't know, it has that word of like deep meaning. It's not a job, it's not a career. Vocation has this meaning of sort of you calling.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

David Mandel :

You know, it's a calling. And it's, you know, I think for anybody who has a calling, you know it's beautiful, wonderful, and hard.

Ruth Reymundo:

Yeah. And yours is particularly complex because you're a man working in the space of domestic abuse, which most often is impacting women, but also it's impacting men and boys. Right. And I've watched you navigate that as a man in in ways where you really truly deeply listen to the experience of people around violence and loss of rights, coercion, in a way that is unafraid of the human experience and the the variety and the reality of it, which is very rare, I think, for people, because violence is such a difficult thing to truly look in the face and to really acknowledge that it is part of our reality. It's part of our reality, it's part of our humanity, it is uh energy that lives in us and comes out and is supported in ways that are terribly destructive, but it is something that we have as humans. And and I really watch you, and I have watched you over the years, listen deeply to different experiences of that energy and different contexts and really honor it for what it is and honor the impact of it, knowing that you can't control or fully shift it yourself, but that by seeing it, by seeing it, by acknowledging it, by naming it, that we have a better chance of collaborating to shift it. So that's what I've observed of you.

David Mandel :

I thank you. I just being seen that way is so amazing. And being seen by anybody that way, but being seen by you as my partner is is is And just to let you all know, my my seeing is very honest.

Ruth Reymundo:

So it's not like it's not like I pad my seeing even for my partner.

David Mandel :

No, she doesn't. Just I can affirm I can affirm that. I can affirm that. Honesty, what you see is what you get with both the words. WYSIWYG is what you get. You know, listening to you reflect back to me how you see me, one feels wonderful because because uh you know, we all can have our self-perceptions, but I think being witnessed is one of the most important and beautiful things.

Speaker 1:

Well, that's what you brought.

David Mandel :

Witnessed with love, which is what you're doing.

Ruth Reymundo:

Well, that's what you brought to practice. You know, you maybe you wouldn't use the word love.

David Mandel :

I would, actually. Would you? Okay.

Ruth Reymundo:

And I'm sure a lot of practitioners might feel a little uncomfortable with that. But that partnering is all about seeing the person's experience and how it's impacting them and how violence is impacting them. And on so many levels, we edit out in our own heads, in our own minds, and our own seeing the meaning and the veracity of that experience, that somebody who's experiencing violence is truly having an experience which is impacting their lives incredibly deeply, and that us looking away is part of the problem.

David Mandel :

You know, I I think one of the things I can share, and you know, you're asking me to reflect, so I am, and I'm thinking about my one of the things that strongly shaped my practice and that what comes out in partnering, comes out in that listening, is a willingness to see and and take seriously and v and understand, seek to understand different perspectives without demonizing and without kind of without sort of making without demonizing, but without whitewashing, without over like I, you know, I think about you know, when you say partnering, I'm thinking about coaching social workers to partner with survivors, but also my ability to partner with social workers who may be engaged with with domestic violence destructive practice, and to see that they're in a system, they're in a role to not demonize them, but to not let them off the hook for the harm they may be doing, for instance, through their practice by taking kids from a survivor.

Speaker 3:

Right.

David Mandel :

I want to be able to hold, and I think I think I do okay. I think the model embeds this, which I want to hold both realities that that when a system takes unfairly takes a child from a survivor, that's wrong. That there's no way to to say it any other way. And it's deeply destructive and damaging, and in many cases, if it's unnecessary, completely avoidable. And I want to be able to call to account that system for that behavior without you know, without seeing the people in the system. Because, you know, I work with off source workers who are gonna tell me their real limitations, they're gonna tell me where they haven't been trained, and and where they're being told they have to do the job this way, or they're gonna lose their job, you know, and not see them one-dimensionally, see them three-dimensionally without letting them off the hook or letting the system off the hook for this is not okay.

Speaker 1:

For their impact, right.

David Mandel :

And it's not any different than what I did in my work with men.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's very I was about to say it's very similar to holding perpetrators accountable. Sorry, guys, holding the system and professionals accountable is similar to holding perpetrators accountable. FYI.

unknown:

Yes.

Speaker 1:

It's real.

David Mandel :

Yes. Yeah, there's a lot of transferable. What I've said is a lot of transferable skills.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

David Mandel :

But I think the love part, you know, because I think that's something I don't talk about a lot, is this deep wanting to see the the people, to see the person, the humanity doesn't mean I always like what I see. And I don't have to accept what I see is the other thing.

Speaker 1:

Right.

David Mandel :

But to see it.

Speaker 1:

Well, humanity is complex and contradictory. Right. That's a real thing.

David Mandel :

Yes, this is uh we you and I read that in in That's an aboriginal worldview piece. Worldview piece. And we you both kind of stuck in the world. Yeah, for both of us.

Speaker 1:

Because it's so real and it has helped to mitigate the pain of the world that you accept that the world includes all these contrasts and contradictory realities, not singular truths, not one sustainable, happy, dappy place that people always think that they can reach for, but really acknowledging and owning our complexity, the complexity of the range of our human behaviors, the fact that we can act in ways that are not in our self or family interests or the interests of the environment. Right? We do that, we do that, humans do that, and really acknowledge that that's real, but then on the other side, acknowledge the goodness, the human connection, the support, the nurturance, the behaviors that are sustaining of our connections and our relationships in a healthy way. And one of the things that I've found really healing and beautiful about the way that you articulated the model, and I know that it's challenging for people who have never done this before, is to acknowledge people for their efforts, both the worker but also the survivor. And even that goes down to the perpetrator as a parent. Acknowledging when they are doing things and behaviors which support healthy relationship, which support connection, when they've brought honesty and healing to the situation, we have to acknowledge and speak the goodness of other people. It's interesting. I was in a community online art say last night, where all the proceeds go to women who and children who have need for the holidays. So they could buy their own things, which is a dignity piece. That's right. And as a child who grew up in an institution who was getting those little tree presents, I always wished I could ask for what I wanted. And getting what you want and what you need is such a piece of human dignity. And you worked that in to the model through partnering. You didn't say to the professional, you get to dictate what that person needs. You said you have to deeply listen. And that is fundamentally against coercive control.

David Mandel :

Right, right.

Speaker 1:

That's exactly by both systems, individuals, and governments. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

David Mandel :

Well, I'm not gonna see you as a problem is is very fundamental to me. I'm not gonna see you as a problem. I'm gonna listen, I'm gonna pay attention. And so with social workers, with practitioners, I would often they'd sit down because they they were sent to see me or they came with a problem with a case and they were scared or worried or frustrated. And and I would often say, tell me what's going right with this case so far. And they go, What do you mean? I'm here to like to fix it.

Speaker 1:

To talk about all the best.

David Mandel :

Yeah. And I said, Then we'll get there. Tell me what is going well. And then the more often interesting, confusing question for them was, tell me what you're doing well in this case so far. Tell me what you're doing well. It was so unf and it's sad, and it still makes me sad. It's so alien in our environment, I think, so many times. To be assumed that you're doing something right.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. At that art show, I listened to people speak beautiful words about other people and their advocacy and their community work. And I had beautiful words spoken to me, and it felt so healing. Right. Because when you grow up in spaces where the center of focus is always your deficits, and those deficits are often measured by the expectations of people who want to extract value from you. It is so wounding. It shuts us down from being able to see the things that we're doing together that are working, that are beautiful. It keeps us out of our sight, out of our minds, out of our mouths. And I think that you did a great job bringing those strengths to the forefront. And that is that is part of the beauty and the healing of being able to see the full person, not just the problems, not just the deficits, but the full person.

David Mandel :

I think it's so essential and and it had a purpose, not only to elevate that practitioner in front of me, you know, not only to give them the feedback they deserved, but it also was practical. I wanted to deepen their self-awareness of their good practice so they could do it more. I wanted them to build on it, and I wanted them to understand what it was like to have a strength-based relationship so they could model that and bring that into their relationship with survivors. It was very strategic. It's both, it's both ethically important to me and strategically valuable. It's it's it's not being nice to be nice. It's it's I want that holistic experience for everybody, which is to understand that these things are not like I think sometimes people are like fruit fruit, oh, you gotta be nice, you gotta be strength-based, you know, and or you've got to be appreciative. And I want like I have this vision and this body experience of this robust, like, no, this is reality. Like, we're not like you have honesty, like this is my like, like, if you're doing something well, let's lean into it. That doesn't mean there aren't five other things to fix or we can do better. I'm not pretending those things don't exist. But for the moment, we're gonna lean into what you're doing well. If you're a survivor, if you're a practitioner, if I'm talking to a mother, I'm gonna lean into and take seriously. Tell me what you're doing right. She says, well, no, this, this, this. I said, No, I don't believe you're not doing anything right.

Speaker 1:

So I would love practitioners to think of being able to see those strengths as solid ground under their feet, forming the solid ground under your feet so that you can then look at the things that are not working and be able to address and contain them. That's what I see that acknowledging of what is to be. And and abuse teaches us to cut ourselves off from the nurturance of what is nourishing. We walk through the world, if we've been abused, with layers and layers of resistance and fear and protection, waiting for the next blow to come, and we cannot internalize the Joy, connection, and pleasure that's around us because of it. And that is a curse. And you have made something beautiful that helps us kind of break that. So now what about the future? Now what the future is. What do you see? Oh, in a second. Look at you.

David Mandel :

I see in the future. Oh my goodness. Now I'm going to say this because you're probably going to hear in the background because we're in our our our dining room. And I just want to say this before I actually go into the future. I just want to speak to the past and the present. In our kitchen is a grandfather clock bought by my grandfather in 1905 in New York City. It's a short one. It's hanging on the wall. It's not a stand-up one. And it hung in my living room in New York City in Brooklyn for my entire life. Then my parents moved out about seven or eight years ago. I took it and got it fixed up. They had to take out the half-hour bell and only dings on the hour.

Speaker 1:

Thank goodness, I have to say. Oh, you're going to hear it. You're going to hear it.

David Mandel :

Anyway, I may stop. It's going to go hang on. So the future. I'm excited about a lot of things. I'm going to I'm going to kinda speak to to three things. And I think that'll that may be enough for me right now. One is I am really amazed at the team we have with the Safety Other Institute right now and our ability to grow and to refine and and build and have more impact. And just the it's been a delight as we wind up a really strong year. Where we added over a hundred new certified trainers, and you know, we're we're up to 120 partner agencies globally, and we're, you know, we're we're having more and more impact. And we've got reports coming out on on the Institute and working with Aboriginal communities and working with Childman Family Agencies.

Speaker 1:

That's right.

David Mandel :

Just the data's coming faster and faster. We've got such an amazing team, and it's getting stronger, and such great internal leadership, and great, great folks. And and and so um I'm really excited about that. I'm really proud of the organization we've become and will continue to become. So that's one thing. So I'm really excited to see how the Institute evolves. I hope you can hear this.

Speaker 1:

Oh, they can hear it.

David Mandel :

Because this takes me back to my childhood in Brooklyn. So it's 10 o'clock here where we are.

Speaker 1:

We gotta we gotta wait for the hangings.

David Mandel :

There we go, 10 o'clock.

Speaker 1:

10 o'clock.

David Mandel :

So you just got a little bit of David history and family and and the the noises of our house every day. So that's one. Two is I I'm really excited about some of the stuff I am writing about and thinking about and and hearing from people that it really matters to them. Because this is exactly what we've been talking about, which is I'm I'm thinking and writing a lot about about men's health and and and male perpetration of violence. And what I've seen is there's just two very siloed camps where the men's there's a men's health people who really will dabble in but are seem to be quite uncomfortable or unwilling to talk about male violence perpetration, even when it impacts men's health and boys' health. And then over on the male perpetration side, domestic abuse side, I think there's a discomfort about talking about men's mental health because it's a fear it'll be used to excuse violence, take attention away from women as victims, which I totally respect and understand that fear. There's lots of good reasons for that. And and I see I see things on both sides. And I really want to, I'm really excited to be a voice to help shape that kind of discussion about men and depression and male perpetration, because I think we're missing opportunities. I think we're missing opportunities to help men who are depressed, who are suicidal, who are risking themselves, but are also risked to other people. And in missing those opportunities, we're missing opportunities to help those men, their kids, and their partners. And so that I'm really excited about. I'd like to see more in the future. And the third thing is what you and I are creating together with our new company.

Speaker 1:

Right.

David Mandel :

Safety Nexus, which we we will be talking about. We've been banging away on in the background, and we're not gonna say a ton about it. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Speaker 1:

You know, because it wasn't enough to to own, you know, run the institute and and work at the institute. We had to make a whole other business, which is about delivering this way of doing work to people in a format which is easier and more efficient for them. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

David Mandel :

It's about embedding the safe and together model thinking more deeply into the day-to-day practice of practitioners and maybe more importantly, more deeply into systems.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and to into their workflows. But also at the same time, it's not just about embedding the in the model into their practice. It's about making what they're doing easier and faster as well.

David Mandel :

And measurable. And what we're excited about is this will have a data component. It will escalate and amplify the conversation about data and the impact of the model, measuring, you know, we we want to see all the things we we have some data around really kind of solidified, that this can reduce removals, keep kids safe and together. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you know, there's we always focus on that. But the other side of that, which I'm always banging away at because I'm a practice person, is the experience of workers in the system themselves. The experience of of of strain, of moral injury, of caseload burnout, of in you know, inability to do their job because of all the factors that are laid upon them and all of the expectations, all of the form-based, like I get an idea when we talk about forms, all of the form-based gaps, all of the ways the forms that are in our practice actually hedge out.

Speaker 3:

Right.

Speaker 1:

Practice which allows us to work with the person as a whole person and that family as a whole family. Right. And and we can do this better. We can do this so much better.

David Mandel :

While keeping, you know, an embedding, using technology, the this coaching mentality, this this kind of ethos I was talking about, this partnering ethos, this guiding workers, our mapping, process, or process if you're in America. Process, process, but process pretty much in the rest of the world.

Speaker 1:

I think I like process because it feels better in the mouth. But it's not a good thing. Because process feels like you have to push it.

David Mandel :

Yeah, process. I like the process.

Speaker 1:

Process just kind of falls out.

David Mandel :

And and also that well-being component. And and so the the technology we're we're doing is is guided by the model, guided by the values. We are gonna be doing quality assurance with it. We're gonna be developing I I I I think if I was to also say what I'm most excited about for the coming year is the credible expert.

Speaker 3:

Oh I am.

David Mandel :

I really mean that. I I you know that Ruth's been banging away in the background, designing a way to For three years now. Yeah. Designing a way to to directly, consistently involve survivors in an ethical way. And cultural experts in an ethical way, in a non-tokenizing, non-extractive way. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Speaker 1:

In a way that actually pays them for their work and makes their input meaningful to the architecture of our solution.

David Mandel :

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: And treats them as whole people and not as one-dimensional victims or survivors, but but as whole people. And and we're really quite excited I'm really so I'm just gonna speak for me. I'm really quite excited about this because it's something that is you've been working on, that's near and dear to both our hearts, and reflects our values, reflects what's necessary, and will elevate the work. And I, for me, if I'm gonna think about the next five years and put that in context, I want to keep deepening all these relationships. We we have this amazing network of people who are passionate about this approach, who are championing it in a local context. You know, I I love seeing on LinkedIn popping up these, you know, I did this training, I finished the survey trainer, I did this, and and you know, and often it's it's it's from other countries.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

David Mandel :

You know, it's not down the street here, you know, where we are, it's other places. And I want to just keep energizing that network, listening to that network, and I'm really excited about the possibilities, the unseen possibilities. I'm gonna say it really clearly the unseen, unknown possibilities that will come out of that. And I and I think this is maybe the last thing I want to say is that I've always made room for the unknown and the unseen and trusted the the process, trusted people, really, which is important to me. But uh when I would train people and coach people in model coaching, as I got a deeper relationship with them, I'd say, look, you have to understand I'm sitting there using the model, and there's often a point where I don't feel like it's gonna work. Nothing positive is gonna come out of this, I don't know what's gonna happen next. Is this the question I doubt? Is this gonna be useful for this person for this family? And what I've learned is that it's okay to sit and have those doubts and fears, and that almost always on the other side somebody was getting something valuable. And that my experience of doubt didn't mean it wasn't useful for them. Right. And but it was it's it's allowing that space not trying to control back to like consent and control, not trying to control every aspect of what this looks like, staying true to my values and ethics and the model, but but but leaving space open for creation.

Speaker 1:

Well, you purposefully have kept, and and this is this is real, a lot of people don't understand the history of externalizing some of the resources of the institute and taking them out from behind training to make them accessible.

Speaker 3:

Right.

Speaker 1:

But you're consistently desirous that your language isn't so proprietary that it doesn't seep into the environment and change the way we speak. You don't want to hold on to those terms in a way that's so tight that other people can't pick them up and look at them and adapt them and make them relevant for their own context.

Speaker 3:

Right.

Speaker 1:

Because that is the way that we build on innovation. We can't hold it too tightly.

David Mandel :

That's right.

Speaker 1:

We have to allow it to emerge.

Speaker 3:

Right.

Speaker 1:

The ways that it emerges are not always gonna be predictable, right? And so that is that is the the beauty of the way that you hold consent and collaboration in your own self. And now I'm gonna say words, unless you have more words to say about consent.

David Mandel :

I I'm I'm stopping my words right now.

Speaker 1:

So I just want to acknowledge you as a really true human. Really, I've known you through a lot of different permutations of relationship, though the Institute has always and your mission has always been a constant ever since I've known you. And you are a human who really truly values connection and relationship over being right, over control, which actually is the secret to being a true human and not being abusive and not being harmful. And I really value our collaboration, our partnership, because I I know that I'm seen and valued in that partnership. And I know that you see and you value other people and their efforts, that you know that this is a collective striving, and that you're really happy to nurture what needs to be nurtured in order for people to take control of their own reality and speak what they need for themselves. And so I just want to honor that fact because it's very real, and it's not just impacting myself as a survivor who has been healing in relationship because despite what a lot of people think, we don't heal on our own. We were wounded in relationship, and we can heal in relationship, and so you really help people to connect with themselves and with others in a way that supports our connections and healthy relationships, and the way that we can be together as humans, and that is a beautiful thing, and you are a beautiful human, and even after 11 years, and how many years have we worked together now? Because I can't remember.

David Mandel :

Seven or eight.

Speaker 1:

Seven or eight, seven or eight years of working together.

David Mandel :

I how many miles of traveling? How many miles of travel?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and also how many miles of you supporting me through my broken physical body, which was broken through child abuse, right? And that's a real thing. Hey, I'm a menopausal woman with child abuse injuries. You know, you think cranky survivor is just a surface thing. Oh no, she's deep in my bones, baby. So you are just a really beautiful human, but also you're a man in a world where men feel so disconnected from themselves and other people and so destructive to what binds us all together in a healthy, sustainable way, that it is so powerful in this world for men to embody that. So though many people may not think of collaboration and connection as power, you are a powerful man in that sense because you will always pivot and prioritize preserving our relationships and connections. That's your values deeply inside of you. And I'm really honored and grateful to be your partner, to experience the creativity, the joy, the struggling, the strife, the freedom of being your partner because you don't own me, and you know that, and you really honor me. So how could I ask for anything more? Seriously.

David Mandel :

And I can't imagine asking for a better birthday present than those words in this conversation. It may be the best birthday present I've ever gotten.

unknown:

I know.

Speaker 3:

I know.

David Mandel :

And that may take you off the hook about getting me a birthday card. No, no, no, no, no. It doesn't. And you have other birthday presents. Don't worry. That's it.

Speaker 1:

This is just one of them. But I know how much you value words and acknowledgement, and and this is a really public acknowledgement. And some people may be made uncomfortable by our professional personal dynamic. But what I'm gonna say is even if you may not value this form of relational the way we are relationally, or acknowledging men and their value and what they are doing in the world, we very much deeply do. And the environment that we create around us is one of seeing, acknowledging, and striving to maintain those healthy, consensual, relational connections and to fulfill our responsibilities to nourish and protect each other and what binds us all together here on this earth, this beautiful place that made us and that is our home. And I'm really grateful for you. Thank you. So happy birthday.

Speaker 3:

Thank you.

Speaker 1:

And thank you for coming into the world. Thank you for bringing yourself every day to what you do and to our family and to the Institute. So that's all I got.

David Mandel :

Wow, that's a lot. Thank you. I'm speechless. How's that?

Speaker 1:

Well, you've been listening to Partnered with a Survivor. Yes. It's raining like mad right now, which I think is beautiful and appropriate. And we are out.

David Mandel :

We're out.