Utah Women & Leadership Podcast
The mission of the Utah Women & Leadership Project is to strengthen the impact of Utah girls, women, and families. We serve Utah and its residents by 1) producing relevant, trustworthy, and applicable research; 2) creating and gathering valuable research-based resources; and 3) convening trainings and events that inform, inspire, and ignite growth and change for all Utahns. We are moving mountains for Utah women! Hosted by Utah State University.
Utah Women & Leadership Podcast
Utah Women and Education: Higher Education Attainment and K-12 Initiatives
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In this episode, we discuss two elements of a recently released white paper titled “Women, Finance, & Education 2025 Utahns’ Awareness, Understanding, and Attitudes.” The two we’ll be talking about today will be Higher Education Attainment and K-12 Initiatives.
Based on an 83-item survey conducted in October and November of 2025, this study collected data from more than 5,200 Utahns across both representative and convenience samples. This marks the third consecutive year of data collection, allowing us to examine how perceptions and experiences have shifted since the 2023 and 2024 surveys. This episode discusses key findings from Higher Education Attainment and K-12 Initiatives to better understand the challenges, trends, and opportunities shaping the lives of Utah women and girls today.
Dr. Susan Madsen, an Extension Professor of Leadership at Utah State University and the Founding Director of the UWLP and A Bolder Way Forward, is joined by two guests. First, Eric Dahlin, professor in the Department of Sociology at BYU and a Bolder Way Forward advisor for the Higher Education Attainment spoke. Also joining us is Mindy L. Layton, a fourth-generation Utah educator who currently serves as a Multilingual Learner Academic Coach at Granite School District. She serves as a spoke advisor for A Bolder Way Forward’s K–12 Initiatives spoke.
Welcome to the Utah Women and Leadership Podcast. In this episode, we're going to discuss two elements of a recently released white paper titled Women, Finance, and Education in 2025, Utah's Awareness, Understanding, and Attitudes. So in this one, we're going to be talking about higher education attainment. That's one of, if you know about our Boulder Way Forward and our spokes, that's one of our spokes. And then we'll be talking about K-12 initiatives as well. I'm Dr. Susan Madsen, Professor of Leadership at Utah State University Extension, and I'm also the founding director of the Utah Women in Leadership Project. And today I'm welcoming two Boulder Way Forward advisors to the podcast. First, Eric Dahlin, professor in the Department of Sociology at Brigham Young University, and is also a Boulder Way Forward advisor for the Higher Education Attainment Spoke. His research and teaching focus on the social impacts of innovation, providing valuable insights into how educational systems evolve and shape opportunity. And just a male ally through and through, Eric, thank you for all of your support and work. And also joining us is Mindy Layton, a fourth-generation Utah educator who currently serves as a multilingual learner academic coach. That's a big mouthful here. And she is in Granite School District. And Mindy is deeply passionate about creating greater access and opportunities for students and their families across the state of Utah. And she also serves as a spoke advisor for a Boulder Way Forwards, what is called K through 12 Initiative Spokes. So we have 18 spokes. These are representing two of our spokes. And so thanks, Mindy. Thanks, Eric. And we go informal instead of calling you Dr. Dolin or Doctor, we're just going first names with this. But thanks for joining.
SPEAKER_00It's great to be here.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm excited to join, join the conversation.
SPEAKER_02So for the last three years, three falls, uh 2023, 2024, 2025, we have done a massive study all through the state of Utah. And this year we had over 5,200 people around the state, all 29 counties, in two different samples. We hired Qualtrex to do what's called a representative sample. And then we did what I love, and that's a you know a convenience sample, we call it. We send it out all over, and people ask their neighbors and their adult children to take it and so forth. So combined, it's over 5,000 people. That's a good size study. And so we like to get their perspectives. And so we just published our report on the 2025. We also mention the, you know, have there been changes? It's hard in just a couple of years to see some big changes. So that's a little bit of the background. Also, these are survey items. Sometimes I slip and column questions, but they're really statements. And one through seven, one being strongly disagree, seven being strongly agree, right in the middle is a four. Just keep that in mind if we mention statistical means. Four means who knows? Either, neither disagree or agree. I don't know, whatever is that for. So we want to start, Eric, with you. Um, in the higher education uh attainment space, and we asked four main questions. And it's been interesting to look at the the results of this. And uh can I just say Eric and I are working on a research study where we're looking at it it seemed to me when I was going through the data that your level of education really does impact almost almost all of the perceptions and understanding. So, Eric, you and I have had numerous talks about related things to this first uh survey item. Here it is. In addition to improving economic opportunity, higher education is also important for intellectual growth, personal development, and lifelong societal contributions. Eric, in the results, are are Utah's getting this? Are they understanding that because I'm hearing all the time, oh, every education is about getting a job. So what are Utah's getting?
SPEAKER_00I'm glad you mentioned earlier the the scale on which these survey questions are asked in a respondent with four being about in the middle. Um, the the respondents in the sample, um, the mean for the average was 5.6. And actually it has been for the last three years that you've done the survey. And so, and I, you know, so that's that's positive. I there's not overwhelming um support, but I I think that especially I'm encouraged given that um there's a lot of discussion in state-level politics and also with respect to technology in the job market, um there is discussion in ways there hasn't been in the last 10 or 20 years about the value of higher education. And and so people are still, so even though that number for the last three years it's stayed the same right around 5.6. Um it it's I'm encouraged that it's staying where it is, given the fact that there's really some um cultural and political um questions that people have about the value of education.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And and our convenience sample was higher. So it's our convenience sample has significantly more educated folks. So I think the more education you have, the more you understand that it really isn't just about getting a job. That's critical, but it is about so many other things, including parenting. I mean, there's some parenting results as well. And so I think that's so interesting. And I I want to shift right to the second of these questions because it it relates to what you just said. And that is very short question College is worth the financial investment. What are some initial thoughts? I know that, you know that, Mindy knows that, right? Um but are Utah's still believing that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, compared to the last question, which is a little broader and the average was 5.6, um, the answer for this question was around five for the convenience or for the representative sample, and it was 5.1 last year for as well. So there so the the scores are a little bit lower compared to the other one. Um, but I I think it's still positive. I'm still hopeful. Um about somewhat agreed. I yeah, I I think Mick, there's you know, and I'm seeing reports all the time um and research about how um for some groups, especially younger workers, college education is uh a college degree is no longer a guarantee to finding job, but still the the percent that are unemployed, it's still relatively small. And compared to people who don't have a college degree, it's you're still increasing your chances. So I think so. A lot of times there's this mismatch between public discourse and or at least debates that we're hearing in the public domain and really what what people are thinking and and what people's experiences is. And so it's a little bit lower here, and I think there's some questions, and I think it's great to ask these questions. I work in higher education, but I think it's not for everyone all the time, and we need to critically evaluate ourselves and and what we're providing to students.
SPEAKER_02And even if it's somewhat agreed, still over 3,000 people agreed at some level in our oh over 5,000 uh folks. So people are saying at least somewhat, but quite a few, like almost 1,500 said they strongly agree with that. So people are getting still in Utah, not as high as we have some work to do, Eric. And maybe it's up and down, maybe it used to be higher and it's going down and and holding the Fort Town. That college really for the lifelong benefit is is critical. Um, and by the way, it it's fascinating to look at the regional, you know, the regional and the county. Um, and and so some of the weakest agreement actually comes from a few of our counties um that are in the rural area, but still there's some rural counties that are really strong on that. So um, you know, that's uh I oh I also wanted to make a comment that on that one, uh, women are actually stronger agree than men significantly.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, and the you know, the school counselors that I talk to every once in a while, especially in outside of Salt Lake and Utah counties and northern Utah, more populated areas. Um you I'm I'm encouraged by that finding among women, um, but also you I hear lots of stories about how um uh people think higher education in some of these areas is it can be really abstract and removed from um some of the local job market opportunities. Um and so I think that's understandable. It's it's more, it's lower there.
SPEAKER_02Now I this third question, we're we're gonna kick it, speed it up a little bit, but our third question, I am passionate about this because we are in the wallet hub, and I know some people don't like that, but one of the metrics is uh the the share of women in graduate degrees. And so we have a question about that. So we in Utah have the the um we're significantly lower in terms of when you compare the number of men, the percentage of men that are getting graduate degrees versus women. We are so below for women getting graduate degrees than any other state by far. So we asked this question. It's important for Utah women to complete graduate degree programs. And we had men and women in the sample, right? Um, and and I I'm glad, Eric, that it was at least on the somewhat agree scale. Anything, any comments there or any other insights that you uh saw when you were going through this?
SPEAKER_00Like you, I mean I mean I'm mostly encouraged because the disparities tend to be so there tend to be such strong disparities between men and women, especially not uh within Utah and between Utah and other states. So again, relatively positive. And sometimes I these things are when I see these data, I'm they're more positive than I expect them to be a lot of times. And so that's so there, there's there's support there, there are messages that education and community leaders um uh when they focus on education, those messages are I think getting through, like I said, despite some other messages that come through other times.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and no, not surprising, Eric, that more women said that it's important for women to get graduate degrees, right, than men. Actually, more educated people say that, more um um people with higher incomes, which makes sense, right? Because if you have more education, you typically have a higher income said that too. And more married women. That's interesting.
SPEAKER_00That is interesting. Yeah, I wish I had what what do you attribute that to?
SPEAKER_02Um I don't know. You asked me a good question. I'll have to think about that. And maybe maybe it's because you know, there's you know, as a sociologist, that there's interaction between the more education, the more this or that. And oftentimes when you're married, you have higher household incomes, and so there's interesting demographics that that might impact. Uh the last question is I think very important. Um, and and Eric, talk about why this is important before um, and here's the question it's important for all those considering attending college to apply for FAFSFA, which is federal financial aid. And Mindy, you might have a comment about this too. Why are we measuring this FAFSA? Um you know, one of your co-advisors is very passionate about that at my 529.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm I'm glad you asked that why question. Um, and I grew up in Utah, and I and my family has been here for generations, and there's you know, there's an ethic, re- a cultural ethic related to um uh you know paying for things, paying your own way, and which I think is critical and working hard and um and which all of which I think are critical. And also um FAFSA, you know, is this government program that that recognizes that college is an important public good, first of all, and that um and that it leads to a lot of positive outcomes for a lot of different people, um, especially women. And also one point that I think is interesting about FAFSA is that um it's it comes from ultimately taxpayer dollars. So so there's this money for people to go to college, depending on our financial need. Um, and it comes, and if it's funded, this program it's our money. It's our collectively, it's our money. And so if we don't um uh take advantage of it, you know, I don't know where it goes or how it gets allocated, but it's it was ours originally. Um, and so I think this issue is important because it can be so helpful for for those who don't who because college costs that we know that the number one barrier for going to college, especially for students in Utah, is cost. And so this provides a great and wonderful opportunity to get a little help.
SPEAKER_02I love how you say that because I was raised um it and we don't take money from the government, you know, and we all paid for it, and my parents I paid for everything. I had to work and everything. But I love how you frame that that this this is taxpayer money. So this is our money too, that we're giving. So that's so interesting. And I I need to move us over to the K through 12 initiatives, but Mindy, do you um you know it in the the work that you do, and you've been a teacher, you've been like in various positions, that FASFA comes up a lot in especially in high schools, but maybe even in middle schools and junior high. I mean, more it didn't used to, but I feel like it's shifting a little bit where we're talking about that more to to these students. Any comments about that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I have attended um many application um meetings at some of our high schools. So in the district where I work, we have eight high schools. And just helping students fill out applications, um, their fast applications, they have nights set aside for those first generation students who need to see the pathway that this is possible to attain your goal of becoming a dentist or a doctor, or um, you know, using the skills that they have and and going forward. I've I personally benefited from FAFSA as a first generation graduate student and um both of my grandmothers did not graduate high school. And so just passing, you know, surpassing and having a lot of strong Utah roots and being able to stand on the shoulders of giants without FAFSA. I think that most of our first generation women, that pathway is unknown. And for a mama who's you know had kids early, um, just re-entering the education world, finishing up their degrees, I think that it it creates, I've seen it with coworkers who are like, I can take out a loan. You know, I it we have to have this for societal good. I really feel like that's Eric, you hit it on that now. You hit that correctly, that it it benefits our communities and a more educated parent or mother has more educated children.
SPEAKER_02And one of the reasons we bring this up, I love those that comment, Mindy. Thank you. It's because Utah, and I can't remember now if we're the like at the bottom, but we don't, you know, we don't utilize the funds that are set aside for Utah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02And I think we're, aren't we in the bottom?
SPEAKER_00I don't know, we're at the last, but yeah, if not the bottom, the last or the second or third.
SPEAKER_02So, and I think it comes from the some of those attitudes that you talked about, Eric. Mindy, excited to jump in. Um, to there's a lot of things to to think about. And we don't cover all K through 12. We just focused on a few areas. The first one is, oh my gosh, this math. This is so important because Wallet Hub, and it's not about all about Wallet Hub, but but I I tend to write about that. But one of their metrics on the women's equality is eighth grade math scores. And um, there is a a difference there, and we're we tend to fall in the bottom uh uh of that between uh boys and girls and math scores. And so that's uh we asked in this uh survey, it is important for girls in K through 12 to have strong math skills for their future career and life. So it could be career or career sometimes is homemaking and life, right? And and math can be important in that too. So tell me when you were thinking about this question and then looking at the results, how are we doing? Are most people thinking today and in 2025 that that's important for girls to have strong math skills as well as for boys?
SPEAKER_01Well, um, just looking at what the both samples said, more than 80 to 90 percent felt at some level of agreement with this statement. And I believe that this is everyone needs to have strong math skills. And and especially since the math looks different. Um, using a debit card, what debiting looks like, what what it looks like to have an empty bank account, or you know, having having students um navigate the mathematical skills, not only the computation, but the practical side too. Um I I would agree that it's critical for for all women to understand budgeting, but not at the expense of any um boys. So definitely this is this we're in agreement, and I do I I really have um some of the research that young women get at the age of eight or nine, that they are making decisions, you know, decisions about their courses, and a lot of those preparation courses happen in junior high based off at a really hard time of young girls' life in junior high, the transition years, and that those those courses impact their future courses in high school. Absolutely. And then that, you know, it's so I think that there's a lot that we as educators can really look at in supporting our girls' math skills. And I know that that's happening. Um, I have a little girl and she's in junior high, and um we have a math lab. And without math lab, because she's really in, she's busy in competitive sports, but she's also in music. And so just knowing that rhythm is music, rhythm is math, because you need half nodes. Yeah, that's prompting. Cheerleading is math, like there are all kinds of math, and that it's not just the computation, and so really expanding our ideas that math is critical for everyone, hands down.
SPEAKER_02You know what I was thinking about as well when I'm looking at this, because the convenience sample is over six, and and it and there's some good, there's still some people that need to be convinced, but generally most people get it and they say, no, boys and girls should, but then we see these disparities. And I think we can say it at one level, but often we don't know the subtle things that we might say or other people might say teachers that somehow even unconsciously give girls the impression they're not supposed to be good at math or they're not supposed to. So it it's interesting. I I'm not sure we need to spend a ton of time convincing people that girls should be good at math, but we need to spend our time at a different level in some ways. So let's shift over to the next one. And uh Mindy, I mean, for years it seems like we're talking about CTE, which stands for career and technical education. First, before we get into the results, why, I mean, why is that topic? Well, Let me read the statement. It's important for girls to complete CTE pathways in high school. So sometimes girls just don't go down that route. Why is that question important? And why is CTE possibly important for all of us and all of our kids?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so that's a great question. CTE is that career technical education. And in some of the anecdotes that people said in the state in this article was that there are gender biases within different pathways. And so I was I was at a high school and there was a young lady that was doing the dental hygienist pathway, right? But that starts early. Like so entering your pathway for your CTE is making sure that you are taking preparatory coursework in junior high. That's even junior high for those high school CTE courses. And then like the plumbings or trades, those those tend to be a little bit more gendered. There's very few women in our plumbing programs or CTE preparatory classes. But we also have found in a lot of my research within the district in my space is that our English language learners aren't taking the preparation courses to get into the CTE classes. So a lot of times those preparation classes, that's where that all happens in junior high or like ninth grade. Some of those coursework, you have to have that completed to advance and take those.
SPEAKER_02So so we really need to be, you know, working and and having awareness, and parents need to. You know, even though I'm like really educated, Eric, you could pitch in here real too. It sometimes we just kind of sign up for classes and we're not thinking when they're that young all the way down. We have to be proactive. And then of course, my heart goes out to to these kids that that don't have guidance. Uh their parents are not even maybe they don't even speak English, um, uh, that don't have that guidance. And and for those wonderful counselors, advisors and in the schools that that uh can reach out. And often they're overwhelmed with the number of kids they're working with, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and we do offer career and college awareness classes in junior high to look at, and my my own daughter, she's like, Did you know that a lawyer can make $8,000 a month? And I was like, Absolutely, that sounds great, right? And so just when a young kid sees the the pathways, but you'll need to take this class and this class and these preparation courses. That's um that's the discussion that we need to all be having in junior high. So, where do you want to go? And now what courses can you take? If you want to be a lawyer, we need to put you in courses talking about the presidents or you know, all the things to prepare kids to have that confidence, to be college and career ready. And yeah.
SPEAKER_02Okay, and the third question, and and I think in your section, we had five because we put one uh at the end as well on absenteeism. So let's go quickly uh through these next couple. But it's as important for girls as it is for boys to take advanced coursework in high school that prepares them for post-secondary, for college and universities and so forth. And and it it looked like in this survey that you know, especially the convenience sample, um, that was 3,000 people, that was like 6.6. So that's almost like strongly agree. And even the other one was was getting there to uh an agree. So I think people are saying that they agree that girls and boys should be taking those coursework um in college. Any other thoughts there, or are you good to jump jump to the next one? I want to leave a little bit of space. We also jump in and do math again. Um, we had two areas that we did math. Um, and and interestingly, again, there's a big difference between the two samples, that representative sample and that convenience sample. The more education you have, the more you tend to agree with these. But Mindy, I want to spend a bit of time um on this chronic absenteeism, because I I really think that's not talked about as much as as maybe to the parents, and I don't even know about that, but I think all of us, grandparents, every neighbors, we can we can we should be aware of this, that our absenteeism rates are really have not been great in the state of Utah. So here's this survey item. Utah's should be concerned about the percentage of children who are chronically absent from school. And uh what do you think? What do you think about the results?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's it's I I feel very passionate about chronic absenteeism. It's very difficult to teach students who are not sitting in the seats, and our teachers cannot prepare the next generation if they're not in the seats, if they're not in school, or um engaging with the material and curriculum at some level and capacity. Um, this what we found in this is that children who are chronically absent are 13 times more likely to be um that they're going to what did it say? Okay students who are chronically absent are seven times more likely to drop out of school. And and that um I believe that 10% is like 10 days is the max before um for a whole year. Yeah for a whole year. And so chronic absenteeism, whether students are leaving lunch early, not attending class, laughing, or not attending at all, it just makes the learning process so much harder. Kids disengage or don't feel the connection. If you come into a meeting late or you come into a classroom late, you've missed the preparation, the instructions, and you've missed that relationship side. And and um, where where I work, we have what's called a panorama survey where we survey all of the students to see how connected they feel, the sense of belonging that they feel. And so a lot of those students who are chronically absent, a lot of times they bubble up and say they may not have a person in their secondary school, so junior high or high school, who they feel connected with. And so a lot of our teachers, the way that they're combating that is doing two by tens for two minutes every time the student's present and present in their seat, um, they'll talk to them for two minutes about something 10 different times. And so our schools have measures to help, you know, build those relationships. But at the end of the day, um when we're talking with students and families, do they need what what do they need? What barriers are getting in the way of them arriving at school and sitting in?
SPEAKER_02Well, I'll tell you, as a as a former uh junior high teacher, and that was lots of years ago, I and and I've talked to so many teachers and spoken to them in the last year. Um it is hard for teachers to teach if they're trying to catch up various students who have not been at class. It is uh is painful. And what I've heard from from teachers all over the state is that parents just kind of expect them to do that. Yet there are so many other things that they're um need to be doing. Um so Eric, you have kids. You have a lot of kids in school, it seems like they're all all at home. Um I I and and being and knowing what you do in higher education and even sociology. Um we know that more kids are absent right now, and especially didn't it kick in Mindy after the pandemic, during the pandemic and after? Yeah. More people are flexible. Do you see that uh with your kids' friends or or I mean I'm sure you can imagine the negative impact on, I mean, you're a college professor when students don't show up for a while, it's hard. They don't get to learning.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you're just you're uh starting two steps behind everyone else already. I see it um I all over I, you know, neighbors who um for a variety of reasons uh who have children. I've seen some really sad cases where where kids will miss an extended period of time and it just sets them so far back. And I I haven't seen them be able to make make it back up to where they should be.
SPEAKER_02That's hard. And that impacts, you know, if they're in elementary school, that impacts their experiences the rest of their life. I mean, anywhere along the line. Uh Mindy, before we, I know I know we're at time, but you you said you were impacted by some of the the actual statements that are in the report, the actual quotes from people. Um, do you want to share a couple? And Eric, if you have any of those too. There were some good quotes that really were representative of of some of the attitudes or experiences of people as well. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_01What this is there were oh, there's so many. I just think it's a great um a great anecdote of the cultural impact. I did find that that was an overlapping theme, but um one of the quotes I liked is if if we can begin career education and training in high school, hopefully girls and women can be more independent before marriage. And just saying that, like um some of the cultural pressures of young women to um marry early and and just trying to crunch in that education, but um seeing this as a long game, that education is a lifelong journey and that we are all you know on this learning path, and um having opportunities for mentors early or you know, educators who can help um women re-enter the career fields that of their choice, and then those CTE, the the the large, the gaping um gender stereotypes that I saw were um about aviation, wilderness, firefighting, criminology, um, engineering, that no one ever spoke about these to young women, that these are so that there's so many opportunities in CTE where women can really be successful and shine. And a lot of times that's the overarching theme is the gender stereotypes.
SPEAKER_02And I love sheet tech actually, because I was just there a couple weeks ago, and there were like over 3,000 young women just being able to see and meet. Um, not that we want everybody to go into STEM, right? We need women and men in education. The things we're talking about, we need really quality ones, but but just there's things, even little that we can do. Um we're out of time, but Eric, maybe 30 seconds. Any final thoughts, any final advice?
SPEAKER_00I'll just finish with this one quote that I saw was when girls are empowered through education, it opens bigger dreams or opportunities and breaks barriers. And I've seen this so many times. How I don't know, it's so difficult to quantify, but um you know, accomplishing something like a college degree is really empowering and helps women and helps everyone feel like they can do things that they didn't feel like they could do otherwise.
SPEAKER_02Thank you. Mindy, final thoughts.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, Utah, this is the place, and this is her place. So I just loved how we ended the article with that. So let's keep forging on.
SPEAKER_02Thank you so much, Eric and Mindy. I appreciate both of you for joining me today on this podcast episode hosted by the Utah Women and Leadership Project at Utah State University in partnership with Utah Public Radio and USU Extension. And thanks to Nick Poreth for his technical support. As a reminder, the Utah Women and Leadership Project's core mission is to strengthen the impact of Utah girls and women. So if you want to learn more about this topic as well as other research topics and resources and events, you can visit us at utwomen.org and to become engaged in uh UWLP's statewide initiative, A Boulder Way Forward. You can also uh visit us at a bolderwayforward.org. Thanks uh for joining us today and have a good rest of your day.