Utah Women: Finance and Home & Family

In this episode, Dr. Susan Madsen explores two major areas from newly released 2025 white papers titled “Women, Finance, & Education 2025: Utahns’ Awareness, Understanding, and Attitudes” and “Home, Health, Community, & Allyship 2025: Utahns’ Awareness, Understanding, and Attitudes.” Drawing on findings from an 83‑item survey of more than 5,200 Utahns, this conversation highlights how perceptions, experiences, and challenges have shifted for Utah women and girls over the past three years. Dr. Madsen is joined by two Bolder Way Forward advisors—Melanie Jewkes and Alyssa DeHart—to discuss the challenges, trends, and opportunities shaping the lives of Utah women and girls today.

Guests

Melanie Jewkes

Extension Professor, Utah State University
Bolder Way Forward Advisor — Finance Spoke  
Melanie works to empower women of all ages to achieve financial security and long‑term sustainability. 

Alyssa DeHart

CEO & Founder, Utah Advocacy Coalition
Bolder Way Forward Advisor — Home & Family Spoke  
Alyssa leads statewide efforts to support healthy families and elevate the voices of people living with disabilities across Utah.

Download the full 2025 white papers HERE.

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Transcript

Susan Madsen 0:02

Welcome to the Utah Women and Leadership Podcast. In this episode, we are going to discuss two elements within our fall study of 2025 that talked about and asked questions about so many different topics. And we're going to do two different topics in this one. One from a white paper called Women, Finance and Education. And both of them have uh have the subtitle of Utahns' Awareness, Understanding and Attitudes. So uh in that paper, we're gonna talk about finance, and we're gonna start with that element. And then we're also going to be taking some research from another report called Home Health Community and Allyship. That's a lot of things we had in a big white paper, but we're gonna really talk about some of the findings of some survey items on home and family. So our two topics really are finance, which overlaps, and then home and family. I'm Dr. Susan Madsen, professor of leadership at Utah State University in Extension, and I'm also the founding director of the Utah Women and Leadership Project. And today I'm welcoming two Bolder Way Forward Advisors to the podcast. First, Melanie Jewkes, an extension professor at Utah State University. Melanie also serves as, as I mentioned, a bolder way forward advisor specifically for the finance spoke, which works to empower women of any age to achieve financial security and sustainability. And also joining us is Alyssa De Hart, CEO and founder of the Utah Advocacy Coalition, I'm a fan, which supports healthy families and elevates the voices and visibility of people living with disabilities across Utah. And Alyssa also serves as an advisor for the bolder way forward, specifically in the home and family spoke. Thanks to both of you for joining today.

Melanie Jewkes 2:04

You bet.

Susan Madsen 2:05

Well, good to have you both here. Like I said, let me let me talk really quick about the survey. So for those of you listening in, if you haven't been listening to other podcasts, uh every fall for the last three years, we have uh collected a lot of data. Uh, in fact, 83 items for in a survey conducted in the fall of 2025. And um, for this one, we had two samples, a convenient sample, uh representative sample. We used Qualtrix to help us with that. About 2,000 people in the Qualtrix sample, and then uh three over 3,000, so 5,300 people in all 29 counties across the state. Um, and so we also did the same research in 2023, 2024, and now 2025. And we're we're just at the tail end of releasing all of those results. So before we get into more specifics, um, when you hear us talk about statistical means and those kinds of things, um one through seven was our our agreement scale with one being strongly disagree, seven being strongly agree, and four being neither one. I'm in the middle. I don't know what what's happening. Um, so that's how we're gonna talk about this, and we're gonna go through these two topics. But before we do, I should have done this before I got into my spiel there. Melanie, I would love to have you just, you know, you're you're so passionate around finance. And uh, you know, and and I expect you're passionate about home and family because finance relates to home and family, right? Tell tell us a little bit more about your passion. Why are you so interested in these topics?

Melanie Jewkes 3:55

Yeah, great. I um studied family finance when I was in college, but I kind of stumbled upon it. And I remember hearing that there was this course that you could take called family finance that counted as a general. And I was like, huh, that's weird. There's classes on that. Like this is before it was mandated in high school, which it now is. But you know, I I was shocked to hear that that was even a thing. And um, I was my interest piqued because I remember seeing the stress of money in my household growing up and and how it came up. So I remember like thinking, oh, I want to take that class. And then I started to bump into people here and there that were actually studying. I was like, wait, it's more than just a class, it's actually a major. Tell me more. And anyway, my passion is just bloomed for because I do see the overlap in basically everything, everyday life with money. Everybody has to deal with money, and it's it's a huge I mean, life isn't about money. I get that, but it is about money. And so I love how it's connected and it's interwoven into so many things.

Susan Madsen 5:02

Yeah. And every single one of the 18 spokes in a bolder way forward for sure. Um, and I talk about that as well. So we just have to raise the confidence and competence of women, girls, young women, and women in this area as well. Uh Alyssa, you're really in that space of home and family, but I'm sure you're you're passionate about the finances as well. Anyway, what give us a little bit more about your passion in these areas?

Alyssa DeHart 5:30

Yeah, I agree with you that money is, you know, those economic drivers are the fuel. Just like food fuels our bodies. You know, the money is what is allowing us to accomplish things in our home and families. And being able to manage it effectively makes all of the difference. So, um, to your point, home and family, you know, when you're able to manage things in your home and family, then your propensity to earn also increases. So they are intricately interwoven and tied. And we all know that uh good home life provides a springboard that allows us to accomplish all of our hopes and dreams.

Susan Madsen 6:11

Thank you so much. And we're gonna get into some other elements in the home and family discussion. We're gonna jump over to finance first, but when we introduce some of the uh survey items in home and family, we'll get into, you know, equal caregiving and domestic labor and some other things as well. But Melanie, I'd love to um start with finance. And we actually had five different survey items. And the first one is I am aware of resources that help me achieve financial security. And again, one through seven, we asked people, do you strongly disagree, strongly agree? Where do you fit along that spectrum? And we asked men and women and people in all kinds of demographic categories, uh, whether it's their jobs or or money or race or any of those kinds of things. Melanie, what jumped out with you? Um you know, overall in both of the samples, it was around a 4.8, right? About a 4.8, which is not quite somewhat agreed, and um a little bit more than neutral. Uh, we've got some work to do, but what are a few thoughts that came to you as you viewed these results from this year?

Melanie Jewkes 7:34

Yeah, I think most people think that they somewhat know about financial resources, but not confidently about it. And women in Utah moderately agree that they are aware of financial resources, but that awareness isn't strong. It's stronger among the men. Um so yeah, like, you know, a significant a significant portion of women either don't know about the resources or they're not confident that they do know. Um and that's interesting.

Susan Madsen 8:05

I mean, there are still like there was still a thousand people that agreed. So there are people, but still quite a few that were in that, I uh, you know, over 10% in that. I I'm kind of on the fence. I don't know. Do I agree? Do I not agree? And so forth.

Melanie Jewkes 8:23

Yeah. I think there, I mean, there's a gender gap again in that like perceived awareness. The men are feeling more informed than women, I think, in general, like just the average. Um, but I think most Utah's think they know where to find financial help. You know, they're in that, yeah, a little more than neither agree, right? Um, but women are less likely than men to feel confident about that, which I think points to an opportunity for us to do better outreach and um better awareness of the access that's available for women.

Susan Madsen 8:56

Yeah, absolutely. On on that one, I mean, our whole point with the work that so many partners like you at USU is to try and have more women and men for that matter, right? Women and men say, I know where to find resources. That's they would they, you know, we need that. Um, what's interesting to me, and and we would expect this, is the higher education you have, the more income you typically make, and the more you're aware of those resources. Um, yeah, we need those resources for people in any so uh socioeconomic area, correct?

Melanie Jewkes 9:34

Yeah. Well, and and also age, the older you are, the more high you rank that. Um, but I think that goes with life experiences. You know, as you go through life, you're going to become more aware. You go through more life circumstances that help you to become aware of resources, but we don't want to wait until there's a financial crisis for you to know the resource available to you.

Susan Madsen 9:56

Exactly.

Melanie Jewkes 9:56

Like hopefully you can know it before and it's in your toolbox. And then when it happens, you already have it and you're aware of it without having to go through even more struggle.

Susan Madsen 10:05

And I expect that's not the case for many people. We learn as the hardships come, right?

Melanie Jewkes 10:10

Yep.

Susan Madsen 10:10

Our next survey item was I've I have utilized resources that have helped me achieve financial security. And that one's lower, that one's even closer to that neutral. So, people, are you aware of this one? Is and I think you helped create these survey items. We wanted to know are the people aware, but are they actually utilizing them? Thoughts.

Melanie Jewkes 10:33

Yeah. So I think as you mentioned, this one's lower. I think it means that women are not actively using the tools that would help them to achieve some financial security. Um, men might be a little bit more, um, but it seems that women are unsure about them. Um, you know, a large share of women are not meaningfully engaging in those tools or the support systems that are there.

Susan Madsen 10:56

And that doesn't surprise me because I still think, even though we've had some gains in this area, I still think there's something in our culture that says you're you're, especially if you're married or have a partnership, that the man will take care of. You know, I had a bumper sticker, a bunch of them years ago, though a man is not a financial plan. And what we man, you've probably seen that where it you think, even if you're in a marriage marriage relationship, and even if it's good, you've got to have both partners working in the space of money, right? I mean, I've I've confronted so many people in domestic violence situations. Can I just say that? That stayed because they had no confidence or knew nothing about money.

Melanie Jewkes 11:42

Some research is showing that. And this is where it can overlap with the home and family as well, because women are marrying later than they were 10, 20 years ago. Um, and there's, you know, there's more chance and the rates of women not marrying are higher than they were too. So there's more women marrying later or not marrying at all. So yeah, they've got to be able to make it compared to Yeah, we all do, men and women. Yeah. We all need to be aware of those resources and utilize them.

Susan Madsen 12:12

Yeah. The third one changes.

Alyssa DeHart 12:15

Oh, I was gonna say, and I think you know, those pieces of knowledge and knowing how to access resources really changes the marriage dynamic anyway. So it's essential and important for women to be as engaged as a man in the financial circumstances in the home.

Susan Madsen 12:32

Absolutely. And Melanie has has taught me um through the years that women make most of the financial decisions in most had uh households. So we have to be knowing what's happening. The third question, I I don't know, Melanie, if you're gonna say this, but I'm encouraged by the third question. And that one is here's the statement. I believe it is valuable for me to understand my personal finances. Okay, we have a table in our report for women and one for men. And um there's they were about the same that women agreed, and men agreed, and it was pretty high. In fact, um, it's it's over six. So six again is um agree, and seven is the highest, and that's strongly agree. Was this encouraging to you as well, Melanie?

Melanie Jewkes 13:28

Absolutely. Like Utah women are overwhelmingly believing that understanding personal finance is important. It's one of the strongest areas of alignment in this report, I think. Um, so I love that. I love that near-universal belief that financial knowledge matters and that there's agreement with both men and women. Um, you know, it's not necessarily a motivational problem, I think, when you see this one. You know, it's not that people need to be motivated, they already believe that it's valuable. And so that helps us to maximize on that, to get those resources out, to help them understand more and to build that confidence which comes next.

Susan Madsen 14:04

So, so we don't, if we're looking at change, we don't spend all our time on motivating because they're pretty motivated, but we've got to get them over to utilization in a better way. So that's what you're saying, right?

Melanie Jewkes 14:16

Yeah, yep. Yeah.

Susan Madsen 14:18

And our fourth survey item was I can manage my first personal finances independently and make informed decisions to improve my financial wellness. What do you think about that one?

Melanie Jewkes 14:29

Yeah, so this one they're a little behind. It's not as strong as that last one. Um, but you know, it's showing that that confidence, I think, isn't universal. The women are trailing behind the men in that. Um, but women do feel capable. So, I mean, you know, it's higher than that neutral.

Susan Madsen 14:48

Um and I sorry to interrupt, but I I don't want to forget to ask you. We've been wrestling with getting the data and some of the data for high school courses, right? There's some years, especially many years, where they're getting the same grades in some ways, but the confidence is lower with women. Uh, or young women graduating or finishing up the personal finance class in high school. Wow, I I was rough on that the way I said that. Help me clean that up, Melanie.

Melanie Jewkes 15:27

Yeah, it and it does bounce around a little bit, but yeah, generally the girls in high school aren't performing as well in the financial literary literacy class. And I think some of that is the socialization that's in the rest of this report on K through 12 initiatives and higher ed and in the home and family. Like, how are we talking to our kids about money? And that's one thing, Susan. Previous reports that you've done have shown the discrepancies in how family members, parents talk to their boys about money and how they talk to their girls. And it's different. And when I read that, I was like, no way. So I I have two, I have well, I have four children, but I have two teenagers, one's a boy, one's a girl. And I've been trying to kind of watch and gauge my own biases. Because I'm like, do I do I have them? Are they just inbred in me from how I was raised? And just trying to be equal and teaching both the same things about investing and saving and spending and all the ways we use money. But I think that might show up here a little bit in that um, you know, can you manage your finances independently and make informed decision in decisions? Is that something that they've been taught to do confidently? And right now it's showing up that men are feeling more confident than women.

Susan Madsen 16:46

And and the socialization. And we as parents, are we paying our sons for chores and not paying our daughters for chores, which is not just you, Top, but but we do that often unconsciously too. Last question. I need to get over to home and family, but last question is really high. I really love this. Um, it's important for women to be competent and confident with money. And we put those two together, men and women together. And it's on the convenience sample, which is 3,000, and that one's more educated. It's almost a seven. It's like 6.83. So again, don't you think people believe that maybe these days it's it's more important for women to understand their finances?

Melanie Jewkes 17:35

I'll admit a couple years ago when we first did this, I thought it would be a stronger difference between men and women just from the bias I've seen in my own life. So I'm happy to see that we don't, men and women don't need convincing that women should be financially capable. That is a win. It's really great to see that. And of course, that challenge is um becomes turning that belief into real world confidence, awareness, and action of those resources. But uh yeah, it's awesome to see that that one's so high.

Susan Madsen 18:05

Yeah. And for men, it was about a six, which is high. It was agree. For women, it was a 6.6. So women, even uh there's significance there. Women, even more than men, even though men are pretty high, believe that women need to be competent and confidence. You're seeing a lot of people are seeing what's happening around them and are like, yeah, maybe everybody doesn't marry, or maybe everybody doesn't um have a partner that's responsible, even if they're a man. Sometimes we think, oh, that man will be responsible or whatever with money. And sometimes they're not raised in that situation as well.

Melanie Jewkes 18:41

So I'm not surprised to see the it's higher among older ages too, older age groups as they've gone through life and been like, oh, I, you know, maybe some of them are thinking like, I wish I had been stronger or I wish I had had more confidence in this.

Susan Madsen 18:56

Yeah. Well, I was raised very traditionally with six brothers, and I think I was so passionate about saving money and being, I don't know if that was taught to me or I just picked it up along the way. But um, I I love uh money doing money responsibly. Okay, we're gonna shift. We're gonna get away from money because we have some other items that are so important. We have four in the home and family. And the first one is this is the statement in conflicts. My partner and I have an equal opportunity to express our views and influence the outcome. Uh Alyssa, why is this question really important?

Alyssa DeHart 19:38

Well, this one is so fascinating to me because it's all about being able to use our voice and essentially advocacy for ourselves as an individual and as a person. And in order to do that, first we have to know ourselves well enough. We have to understand our purpose and have that solid enough in our mind that we can speak to it, especially with our partner in our home. Um, you know, if one person has a more defined vision or view of the home than the other, that's going to probably take shape more effectively. So being able to use our voice is the beginning of so many things. So many things. And it's actually, I guess, the middle and the purpose force that Boulder Way Forward has that helps women get to know and identify those elements of who they are is an essential starting point, really.

Susan Madsen 20:31

Thank you. Um this one was really interesting, and the women, there was a whole point spread between our representative sample, which is pretty much all Utons, versus our more convenient sample, which is more educated, uh higher income, and so forth. Those folks were almost for women, they were almost a six that they use their voice. The other one was less than a five. So still, at least on that positive element, but both were significantly below men. Even though men's were not like incredibly higher, men are saying, yeah, I use my voice even more than women. Um, so any thoughts about that? I think it's so fascinating looking at age, looking at education level. And of course, if you have more education, more income, you're gonna say, I use my voice, even though that's not true for everybody. There are situations that people in every income, every educational that that are not able to use their voice. But overall, we have these findings. Any thoughts, Alyssa?

Alyssa DeHart 21:41

Well, my thoughts about that go back to this being the middle point, using our voice is the middle. The beginning is understanding ourselves better. So it makes sense to me that a higher educated person will have a more solid perspective and ways to use their. Those skill sets will be owned because they've learned to process information differently. For instance, in my undergraduate work, you know, that's where I learned how to find information and recognize that I could learn anything if I knew where to find it. And then in the graduate level work, you know, it helps you understand that curiosity and flexibility are so important. And then you're asked to find the gaps so that you can contribute to the whole in a better way. And so those are the same skill sets that are needed in a home and marriage and forming uh your identity around that. Because essentially you're creating a whole new entity together. So you've got to be good partners in that way, which does involve finance. Like Melanie was talking about, you you know, you have to be able to have that transparency and build trust. And that happens through communication.

Susan Madsen 22:52

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for that. One one more quick comment about this is the research has found, honestly, that the best marriages, the more empowered all the both partners are, are when they have equal voice, when they're heard. Both are heard in in positive ways. So let's go to number two. Um, and that is related to domestic labor. So our work in the home, our work with, we actually have a separate question on caregiving. So this one is is here's here's the survey item. I feel the load of domestic labor is shared equitably within my home. And we do recognize absolutely that in many homes, women take on more care, more domestic labor, and sometimes because they work part-time or they are full stay-at-home um moms or partners. Um, and so sometimes we don't expect this to be perfect, but in general, I feel the load of domestic labor is shared equitably within my home. So um we have women and men uh separated out and uh right a little bit for women slightly above neutral, which is not even somewhat agree. For men, it's going to be, and it's not incredibly high, but still more than somewhat agree. That is not a surprise to me, because the national and global research says that men believe they're doing more than they than women believe they are. Did I say that correctly? So that's pretty commonplace. It is, you know. The women say, uh, maybe, and men say, yeah, I'm doing better than I thought, but they they didn't like do really, really high on that. Uh, what were some of your thoughts on on this survey item?

Alyssa DeHart 24:55

Well, I I think this is very indicative of the way that we see our contributions, you know, a woman versus a man per se. And um women are very self-we have more self-doubt. Women deal with more self-doubt traditionally. Yeah. So the confidence levels definitely impact this. However, I would say we also underestimate the value of what we do because it comes so naturally to us many times, you know, is just part of who we are. And so it hasn't really taken us far out of our comfort zone to do it. Um, and whether that's because of cultural norms or because of our wiring or because of who we are, um, and that's not universal. Some women are less, you know, inclined to do certain household tasks. But and and then I think men give themselves credit. They're a little better at that skill set of giving them credit, giving themselves credit for what they've done and recognizing the contributions that they make.

Susan Madsen 25:57

Yeah, and I I just want to say that that maybe in a lot of of homes and marriages, you're not looking for exactly 50-50. Um, you you, I mean, the point, as you said earlier, is communication. And Melanie, and your work too. I mean, the communication is key. Whatever you both feel good about doing and contributing is really important. But it's been so lopsided in even the research around women who work full-time and men who work full-time, and even the same number of hours they work, you know, outside the home or work for pay full-time, women will take on significantly more. And the research says that men will um spend more time and leisure. Um, that's what they call it in the research and leisure and recreation. And that could be good things too. But I think it comes down to just making sure you're, you know, you're talking, you feel comfortable with that, and so forth. Let's, um, I'm looking at our time. We need to keep moving. The next one is is um about caregiving. I feel the load of caregiving is shared equitably within my home. And those were um, again, similar trends, right? About the same same thing where men are feeling a little bit more confident with that than women. Um, why is that uh question so important? And and share a few of your thoughts, Alyssa.

Alyssa DeHart 27:29

You know, I think it comes down to what we see as a need in our homes and families. And um, women see the needs differently than men do, and men are willing to um take more time and leisure, and perhaps value that over some of the uh nuts and bolts types things that we get involved with in the caregiving. And so many of so many of those pieces happen without communication, then it's no wonder that someone would think they're more involved than they are. Um, our situation in our home and family is slightly different in that we have a couple of children who've required additional needs. And so uh also because we have six children and they came very quickly, there wasn't any way physically possible for me to do all of the caregiving that needed to happen. So, while in the early years, I was the one in charge of everything at home, and my husband was out working, uh, that dynamic shifted in the very end years of our family so that I was also outworking and um and then gaining an education. And really at that point of a master's degree, I couldn't be doing a lot of it. And my husband, Steve, stepped in and found completely new ways that he could give care and became the main person giving care to our youngest daughter, who's on the spectrum with autism. And it was so important because then he understood the situation so much differently that we're able to really have parallel ideas about going forward for her, what the future needs to be because of his actual in the trenches experience.

Susan Madsen 29:21

That does change how you feel when you get in the trenches for that.

Alyssa DeHart 29:26

And you know, part of that involved me letting go of some of what I would do and letting him just do it the way he did, and valuing that and recognizing, you know, again, that curiosity, the communication, and then he could be the balance and check when my mind was thinking differently, like his used to. So yeah.

Susan Madsen 29:49

I appreciate that. And what I was gonna say just a minute ago, too, and you brought this up, is we think of our own kids mainly, and that's key. But oftentimes, if I haven't experienced uh children with uh disability, that may not be on the top of my mind. And so that's different, but also caregiving of uh elders, um, of our parents, of sometimes people are the only caregiver for a sibling that's an adult. Um, and so when we're talking about caregiving, we default over to the kids. Um but we don't think about, and I love the way you said that, that you couldn't physically or emotionally, but physically even handle, you know, all six kids. Um, and especially with some special needs. Yeah. And so the hope with these questions, I'm gonna shift this up to my last question for both of you, but the hope of these questions is just to have a top of mind. And the efforts are around increasing communication skills that even before marriage, um, as as thinking about that, even for younger folks, talk about what your expectations in a marriage are and uh around money, around other things as well, caregiving, domestic labor, those kinds of things. And and although we didn't ask this specifically, we our work around this in a bolder way forward touches on emotional load too, which sometimes, I mean, women have a lot of more emotional load. We don't have time to talk about that, but just throwing that out there. I um our time is gone, but I would love each of you to just share a just take, you know, 30 seconds to a minute and share any final thoughts about what you learned from the survey or just some final thought advice for the listeners today. Melanie, why don't you go ahead and start?

Melanie Jewkes 31:46

Yeah, I think the thing that I kept thinking of, especially after just hearing you and Alyssa speak too, is we need to that communication needs to roll. We need more women talking about finances with each other. Sharing, there's no one right way to do personal finance because it's personal. And I hear over and over again from people, especially women, that will say, oh, I'm so bad I did this with my money, or I'm so bad I don't do this with my money. There's no bad. Talk more, get more ideas, experiment, change it when it doesn't work for you. Um, but I think that talking will help women become more aware of those resources that can then increase their competence and confidence in financial security. So that's my overall insight is let's talk more about it, more openly, more lovingly, more acceptingly amongst each other.

Susan Madsen 32:36

I love that. And before I go to Alyssa, one other thing for us to talk with each other about is how to teach our children. How do we talk to our children, both our our young men, young women, girls, boys, about money? Because I don't think we do that well. And the researcher supports that. We don't do that as well as we need to moving forward. Alyssa, few a few final thoughts.

Alyssa DeHart 33:00

Yeah, you know, I think what you're just saying about we don't speak about things enough is exactly it. We have some cultural norms around different topics and what's appropriate to say and what's not appropriate to say. And so somewhere within us, we diminish or minimize our own needs because if they're coming up in that area or this area, then we aren't willing to express it, which allows us to get more knowledge and take experience in it in new ways and close that loop, like you were talking about earlier, Susan. You love to close the loop, and we all do. We want to be able to have moments where we understand that worked or that didn't work, let me try it this other way and see how that goes. So, communication, I feel like, is exactly the thing that we've got to get better at, and then understand that as women, we do care. We care so much that sometimes it causes us to be more critical than we need to be of ourselves. And so, if we can replace some of that critical, you know, perspective with curiosity and think more about what if, what if this did work? What if I did talk about this? What if I didn't get so frustrated in this moment and instead was curious about why things were done the way that they were done? And you know, the things that we didn't talk about also, as far as like women's sexual, sexual needs and sexuality health, again, it comes down to communication and being confident enough within ourselves about our own needs that we're able to express them. So I'm excited about bringing these different pieces of information to the surface in a way that has data that supports it so that we can see where we can progress, you know, how we can progress, especially through communication.

Susan Madsen 34:58

Melanie and Alyssa, thank you so much for joining me today on this podcast episode hosted by the Utah Women and Leadership Project at Utah State University in partnership with Utah Public Radio and USU Extension. And thanks to Nick Poreth for his technical support. The Utah Women and Leadership Project's core mission is to strengthen the impact of Utah girls and women. To learn more about this topic as well as other research and resources and events, you can visit us at utwomen.org. And you heard us mention a few times a Bolder Way Forward to become engaged, to learn more about that statewide initiative, a bolder way forward, we invite you to visit a bolderwayforward.org. Thanks so much for joining us today.