Utah Women and Political and Civic Representation

In this episode, Dr. Susan Madsen explores findings from the newly released 2025 white paper “Home, Health, Community, & Allyship 2025: Utahns’ Awareness, Understanding, and Attitudes.” This conversation focuses on Political and Civic Representation, examining how perceptions and experiences have shifted for Utah women and girls over the past three years. Drawing on data from an 83‑item survey of more than 5,200 Utahns, the discussion highlights the trends, challenges, and opportunities shaping women’s engagement in civic life statewide.

Dr. Madsen is joined by two Bolder Way Forward advisors—Ann Mackin and Sui Lang Panoke—who offer expert insights into representation, leadership pathways, and the systems that influence women’s participation in public decision‑making.

Guests

Ann Mackin  
Founder & President, Springboard Utah
Bolder Way Forward Advisor — Political & Civic Representation Spoke
Ann leads statewide efforts to train, advocate for, and place talented individuals on community boards, government commissions, nonprofit boards, and corporate boards across Utah.

Sui Lang Panoke  
Founder & Principal Consultant, Rethink International
Bolder Way Forward Advisor — Political & Civic Representation Spoke
Sui Lang is a global leadership strategist who challenges organizations to rethink how they develop leaders, build culture, and expand representation.

Download the full 2025 white paper HERE.1

Visit the Utah Women & Leadership Project website.

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Transcript

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Dr. Susan Madsen 0:02

Welcome to the Utah Women and Leadership Podcast. In this episode, we're going to discuss one of the elements of a recently released white paper titled Home, Health, Community and Allyship 2025. And the subtitle is Utah's Awareness, Understanding and Attitudes. And today we'll be talking specifically about just that one element, which is not a just. I shouldn't have just said just, because it is about political and civic representation and what an important foundation for the work of strengthening the impact of girls and women here in the state of Utah. I'm Dr. Susan Madsen, Professor of Leadership at Utah State University in Extension, and I'm also the founding director of the Utah Women and Leadership Project. And today I'm honored to welcome two of our Bolder Way Forward advisors, particularly in the political and civic representation spoke. And I welcome them both to the podcast. First, Ann Mackin, founder and president of Springboard Utah. Springboard Utah focuses on training, advocating for, and placing talented individuals on community boards, government commissions, nonprofit boards, and corporate boards across the state. Also joining us is my friend Sui Lang Panoke, founder and principal consultant of Rethink International, a high-touch global consulting firm that challenges leaders and organizations to rethink how and what they think. And I am just glad to have you both here. Thank you for joining.

Ann Mackin 1:45

Thank you.

Sui Lang Panoke 1:46

Thanks for the invitation, Susan.

Dr. Susan Madsen 1:48

Before I jump in and describe a little bit of the survey and we get into some questions, I want to start, and Ann, I'll have you start by talking about why this really matters to you. Why are you interested? Why are you passionate? And in our spoke, just as a reminder, if the listeners don't know, we really talk about political representation, um, advocacy, and engaging in the community. And also, Ann, you're particularly passionate about getting more women on these boards in different ways, especially state boards, but various kinds of boards. So I know you're passionate, Ann, about all of those things. Why? Why is it important to you?

Ann Mackin 2:32

Actually, Susan, it goes back over 15 years when a small group of women in Salt Lake City created something called Utah Women Run. Actually, it was called Real Women Run, and then it became Utah Women Run. And what I learned through those many years of being with that organization is women really were interested in running for office. They were passionate, they had issues and they were advocates for issues. And the reason Utah Women Run was created is because so many women said, I want to run, I want to run. Where do I begin? What are the steps I need to take to get into public office? Because I want my voice to be heard, I want to see changes in the community I live in, and I would like to do that through serving in public office. But often women would hit what I called a perception, a roadblock perception, as they would say, Well, I've never I've never served on an organ-- I don't know Robert's rules of orders. I've never served on a board or a commission. And while I want to run for office, I think I need a little more experience and maybe some confidence builders. So that's how I got really passionate about helping women take the baby steps, maybe not baby steps, big steps to preparing to run for office. And so what I meant by that is I would encourage students to uh get on a local nonprofit board. Maybe you're really, really passionate about something. Maybe it's no more homeless pets, or maybe it's child, uh child uh protective services, child advocacy. So start on a nonprofit, get involved, learn Robert's rules of orders, learn how to be on a decision-making body, learn how to find your voice, learn how to be in a committee meeting, and really express uh your concerns and develop your public speaking, your articulation. And so, but being on a board, a local board or commission or nonprofit, it really sets the stage. And I say if you earn your stripes serving on on boards and commissions, then you're ready, perhaps, to take the next step and run for office.

Dr. Susan Madsen 4:49

Oh, I love that. And and for some people, they really do serve on a lot of boards, and that's what they want to do. That's where they want to actually stay. And and you can move up into really influential boards like the state. Utah has a lot of boards and commissions.

Ann Mackin 5:06

300, uh the state of Utah has 365 boards and commissions with an average number of seats of 10 seats per. So there's almost 4,000 seats just at the state level alone.

Dr. Susan Madsen 5:17

Yeah, we have a report from I think just last year, the year before, that did the update on all of those detailed boards, um, and and how many people and how many women are on those, and how many seats, and so forth. Um, and and all of those ways to serve that you mentioned, Ann, um, are important for decision making and impact families and impact individuals across the state. Um, and so there's so many opportunities to serve. And hopefully, for many, maybe not everybody, it leads to running for office at some level, either the local or the county or--

Ann Mackin 5:58

So, starting small, like your own backyard on a community council in the city that you live on, which then maybe you're interested in running for your own city council or serving on the planning commission or any other municipal or city organization. So your skills also your visibility comes up when you're serving on community council and you get up and speak to city council about an issue, all of a sudden you're raising your visibility, and that's how you get tapped.

Dr. Susan Madsen 6:29

It all matters, yeah. It all matters, and even uh just being a delegate uh in your caucus, right? That that matters as well. Suey Lang, uh, what are uh I know you've been passionate about ever since I've known you, and I don't know how many years that has been, but talk about that. Why is why has it interest you for decades? Um, and why are you passionate?

Sui Lang Panoke 6:53

Yeah, well, very similar to Ann's passion. Um, being raised in a state like Utah, I quickly recognized early on the disparities that existed amongst women and people of color in public office. Uh, and recognizing that women make up more than 50% of our population, you know, my whole goal in the work that I've I've done since the beginning of my career is parity, right? And equitable representation, right, in our governing bodies. And so as a proud alumni of the University of Utah's Hinckley Institute of Politics, studied polysci there. And even at undergrad, I was either the lone or one of very few women in our political science courses. Um, after I graduated there, moved back to Washington, DC, pursued my MPA at American Universities Women of Politics Institute uh program, where I was very fortunate to be plugged in on the national level in a lot of these circles, working towards getting more women and people of color elected to public office. And as we were talking about stats and the updated report that you just released in February, um, I was so excited about the progress that we have made. And so when I started doing this work and really tracking, it was 2003, 2005, about 20 years ago, you know, women made up about 15% of Congress. Whereas today, we're at 28.6 and so significant strides. But I just remember we and it felt like so far away. 20%. If we could just hit 20%, that would be amazing, you know. And so how far we have come in just short uh two decades, and similar on the state legislative um field as well. You know, women were called 2005, 15% of state legislatures. Today we are at 22.7. Uh, and so it's it's it's pretty amazing the progress that we have made. And it's partly in due uh to organizations like Utah Women Run. I'm so honored to be here with one of the founders, Ann Mackin, and then you as uh as well, someone who's served on our board for many, many years.

Dr. Susan Madsen 8:54

Now you're on the board!

Sui Lang Panoke 8:56

Yeah, and I'm now currently carrying on this legacy. Um uh I think I've served about nine years now. Um and I'm currently the vice chair of Utah Women Run. Also, if any of you out there listening are interested in serving on our board, we welcome you. We're actually in the process of recruiting new board members, but um and that alone, too, board service is such a phenomenal way to plug women in. Anyone interested in public service as a career, it is the most amazing way to learn governance, uh, which is most really important in serving these roles as well.

Ann Mackin 9:33

I thought of something as you were speaking about how we've saw from 2005 to 2025 a significant increase in the number of women that serve in the legislature. But what I think is going to happen is young women will see the women that are serving, whether at in in Congress, in uh the local legislature or the local communities, they're role models and they aspire. So when you see when you're 15 and you see women uh you know running for office and serving in office, it's inspiring. So I think it's only going to create more opportunities for women and women saying, I can do that.

Sui Lang Panoke 10:16

Yeah. Absolutely. Modeling is critical to our success.

Dr. Susan Madsen 10:21

Yeah, and I'm glad you brought up some of those statistics. And we we're not going to take uh time to go through more of those specifically, but for those listening, if you're interested in this topic, which hopefully every everyone is, um in our report, we hit uh updated uh just from a month ago, updated statistics of Utah compared to the nation in seven areas: Congress, statewide executive offices, state legislature, counties, mayors, city council, boards of education. So all those are places you can serve in terms of running for office, right? But there's also city planning and zoning and all kinds of other things as well. But if you want to know our stats, we have made some progress. There's still progress to be made, though, you know, in in every level to be made. And we but we've made some progress, which is good. So I want to jump into uh asking, you know, having us kind of wrestle with some of the results of a study that we did at the Utah Women and Leadership Project in the fall. So this is actually the third year we've done it. So in 2023, we did it the first time. And then we're tracking changes in attitudes and perceptions, understanding of certain things. So if you know or haven't have heard about A Bolder Way Forward, there's what are called 18 spokes. And each of those are important. And in this spoke, which is called uh political representation, um, political and civic representation, we had four questions. This is the third year we've asked these questions. Um and and we're really looking at uh what's happening across time, not just with women's perceptions, but men's too. Um and so love that. So let me tell you a little bit more about the survey. Um we we put it or you know, put it out there for people to take in October and November of 2025, and it has 83 specific questions. That's a lot, but there's 83, and then other demographic questions and a couple of open-ended questions at the end. And so we collected data from over 5,200 Utahns. We had two samples. One was a representative sample in all 29 counties. We worked with Qualtrics to do that. That was about 2,000, and then over 3,000 in a convenience sample, which are, you know, you two and your friends and people, you know, my students, my adult students all over the state of Utah. That sample tended to have more educated people. We had a lot of people with graduate degrees, bachelor's degrees. So you'll see some differences in the two, but we really wanted to use both of those. Um, and then one more thing before we jump in, and that is these were 83 survey items, we'll call them. They're not questions, they're actually items. And so people could choose one to seven. Strongly disagree, one, strongly agree, seven. If if it's around a four, that means neither they're not sure, neither strongly, neither agree nor disagree. So when we're talking about numbers, I wanted to just explain that so that um that uh you would you would understand that. So as I said, we have four different survey items. So what I'd love to do is read that, maybe make a comment or two, and then I'd love to have both of you kind of give your insights on what you're thinking, um, what we need to change, any any aha's that come to your mind. Okay, here's the first one. If a woman were to serve in a political role, it would negative negatively impact her family. So so we really wanted to understand people's perceptions of that. And interestingly, uh, we did in this question separate men from women. That's important in this kind of right. And so for women, it was about a three and even lower, um, which is good for the convenience sample. So that's good that they were people are saying, well, I I kind of disagree with that, that I don't think that that it would really be a negative thing for her family. Of course, we want to see even more disagreement with that. And for men, it was a little bit less uh disagreement, right? Um, so Ann, thoughts about that question. Um, even between the two of you, Sui Lang and Ann, you know, why is that perception important to change? So, Ann, why don't you jump in and go first? Any insights?

Ann Mackin 15:33

I've had uh several friends of mine who have served in public office, elected office, who have shared the same story with me when they were out knocking on doors, sometimes pushing a stroller or maybe visibly pregnant, knocking on doors, getting to know their constituents and running for office. And they would have that that question posed to them how can you how can you work be in the legislature and also raise a family? And the answer was not only am I going to make represent you and be an excellent member of the legislature, I'm going to bring my experience as a mother, as a wife, as a community member. I bring all that with me when I serve. So I feel that um really women who are married, have children, they've got kids in school, they've got PTA meetings, they've got all sorts of commitments, they actually um make great representation, they really represent other women. So when it when the question about will it have a negative impact on my family, actually women who run for office are role models for their daughters, their sons, other members of their community, people in their religious community. So um I uh I was glad to see that so many people strongly disagreed. And

Dr. Susan Madsen 16:53

That's true,

Ann Mackin 16:54

and they all through the ages, too.

Dr. Susan Madsen 16:56

Yeah, that's true. Sui Lang.

Sui Lang Panoke 16:59

That is definitely heartening uh to hear as well. And and as with any other question responses to it, it's all subjective, right? So it really depends on the perception that the woman has of herself, uh, the role, uh perception of politics as well, too. And I feel like the political climate at any given moment also plays a role in this perception. Uh, but that's part of why we're doing this work, right? To shift those perceptions and begin to socialize more and normalize the idea of women serving in these positions of power and influence. Uh, because I think we've all known another part of research in this space is when we have a higher percentage of women serving in public office and governing bodies, uh, there's less, there's more peace, right? Uh higher ethical um conduct, um, more transparency, less corruption. I mean, all of these things are true. So um, and also I think all of us are mothers. And so being role models for our daughters, children, other young women in the community. Um, again, it's easier to believe that which you see. And so that modeling piece is as well.

Dr. Susan Madsen 18:14

Good insight. And and this question, I think, really came from from the decades and centuries of of this expectation that women will do more private work and men will do the public work. And if a woman is serving an office, she must be um ignoring her families and those kinds of things, which um the women get more than the men, right? Um, and so I think changing those perceptions is what's really important. And so it is heartening some to see that a lot of people are saying, no, you know, a woman can run for office and it's it's um she and not or right, isn't that and and Ann, you were gonna say something.

Ann Mackin 18:58

I was thinking, oh, something that what Sui Lang was saying when we're talking about the impact on the family, but also women being well suited to serve, the research is in Dr. Madsen. And when a board, whether it's a corporate board or a local board, has more uh a broad spectrum of voices, perspectives, ethnicities, gender, um, economic uh factors, when we have a broad spectrum of voices on a board, they make better decisions and better decisions that serve everyone. And also on corporate boards, the research also suggests that boards that have that are very diverse and have lots of different voices, they make more money.

Dr. Susan Madsen 19:43

Yeah.

Ann Mackin 19:44

They're more profitable.

Dr. Susan Madsen 19:45

There's some good good research out there on those things. Yeah. So you brought up the word suited, and that's actually our second of our four uh survey items. And this this is what how this one's worded. Women are well suited for elected political positions, some interesting dynamics we don't want to talk about in the national and local um uh politics here in 2026, but we know that um we've made some progress through the years because women are getting votes, right? And people say, hey, they were really are well suited. Well, what did we find? Well, in on the women's agreement, and and on most of these questions, women and men are um slightly different, but women said in the representative sample about 5.6. So that's between somewhat agree and agree, which is solid. And the convenience sample of 3,000 people that that have a little bit more education and income are saying six point like five. So that's like solid, absolutely, is what that group is saying. So I think, and men are in that range too, not quite as I don't know what the word is, excited, enthusiastic, but still there in the convenience sample, men are saying six, a little bit more than six. Like, yeah, I agree. Women are well suited to do the this politics. And the convenience sample is right around 5.5 as well. So it does that, um, let's go to you first, Sui Lang. Does that encourage you that people do think that women are well suited? Or or do you there's still room to grow there? But what are some thoughts?

Sui Lang Panoke 21:37

It's definitely encouraging to me. I think the question, the term well suited is so interesting. Yeah, way to frame this, right? Typically, the question is more like are they qualified? Do they have the experience, the skill set, and the confidence, right? I think suited absolutely applies, and I I wholeheartedly agree with that. It when you look at At what constitutes as uh an effective public servant, right?

Dr. Susan Madsen 22:07

Yes.

Sui Lang Panoke 22:07

In my view, it's a combination of the soft and the hard skills. Um, we all know women generally we we underestimate ourselves, right? We lack the confidence that the majority of our male counterparts have, um, especially in this space. Um, but generally we we are overqualified for many of these roles.

Dr. Susan Madsen 22:28

Yes!

Sui Lang Panoke 22:29

You know, when we look at on paper, like in terms of skill sets, experience, even academic backgrounds. Um, generally the gaps that I see is in confidence. And when you look at the political arena, naturally the personality or leadership style that that arena attracts is very high ego. And in my view, the most effective legislators or public servants, public leaders are low ego, high levels of commitment to the vision, mission, the community that they are um called to serve. And so when you take all those things into account, absolutely women are well suited and well qualified. We need to work on the confidence piece, though. And again, that's why we're here uh to serve in in all of these roles.

Dr. Susan Madsen 23:17

Yeah. Thank you so much. Before I go to you, Ann, though, I want to point out a couple of the demographic differences. So uh there's uh there's some significant ones in counties. Isn't that interesting? Women who reside in the following counties have the highest agreement. Garfeld, Wayne, Wasatch. So that's a Heber City, right? Um, Brand, down there in Moab area, Davis, Cache, Salt Lake, and Washington. And those in the lowest, um Millard, San Pete, so it's those are rural, but still there's some rural ones in the top, too. So I thought that was interesting. And then, of course, uh, as I mentioned, those with more education said absolutely. And full-time women who are full-time employees had significantly more agreement than full-time homemakers, people looking for um work. And then one more thing is usually if you have more education, you make more money, right? That's what we know. And so that that connects. And then oh, I'll give you one more. Um, women participants who were significantly more likely to agree were white and American Indian or Alaskan Native. Those were the highest. I thought that was interesting as well. Oh, I've got to give you one more. Sorry. Because I think the demographics are so interesting. Religion. Do you want do you want this one? You two? Isn't that interesting? So the highest agreement came from agnostic and atheist and Judaism. Those were the top. Interesting. So it makes you wonder. There's all kinds of things to wonder. So Ann, any comments about this item .

Ann Mackin 25:09

When when I read when I when I read the um the when I reviewed the statistics on this, I was actually pleasantly surprised when I saw so many men and women across the board through the different age um brackets, how many of them agreed and strongly agreed. So I was very heartened by this because I think um I was expecting uh something a little bit less. So I think it's a great question because the responses were so positive. So I thought that was pretty interesting.

Dr. Susan Madsen 25:41

If we had data from like 10 years ago, I think I think it would be much lower. I think things have happened in the last 10 years, even in the last five years. Um you know, I think things have shifted. Um, let's let's go ahead and shift to the third question. Ann, I'll have you start with this one. So so this one is is much more broader. You know, here it is. I understand how to get involved in civic activities. So, Ann, why is that question important? Why do you think we asked you? You weren't uh, you know, helping us decide this, but it's important.

Ann Mackin 26:18

I I think in in all the years I've been doing it, I have been uh singing the praises of getting involved and what why it's important. But also, I've often dealt with women who've raised their hands and said, Where do I begin? How how do I get involved? So I think that when when I looked at the at the statistics that came out, older women and women who have lived in in Utah for like over 20 years, they really felt that they knew how to get involved. So I do think that makes perfect sense. The longer you've been here, the deeper your ties are to the community, the deeper your roots. And also older women, myself included, I think we we know a lot more people and we know a lot of organizations. But something that Sui Lang brought up earlier that I'd like to talk about because this really plays into I understand how to get involved. I think women understand how to get involved, but there are again what I call these perceived roadblocks, confidence. A lot of challenges I see in women getting involved is they feel like, well, I'd love to, but I don't have a master's degree. I only have an associate, I don't have the qualifications. I always get this feedback. I don't know how to do budgets, I don't know how to read a balance sheet or income statement. I don't have background in finance, and so that can be intimidating if they're serving on a decision-making board. So qualifications, background, experience, and also sometimes people are reluctant to get involved because of the time commitment. But I think all of those perceived roadblocks can be overcome, especially the confidence one. So

Dr. Susan Madsen 28:00

I appreciate that. And one thing that comes to mind is our Lieutenant Governor Henderson is is she was a stay-at-home mom, she got involved, and then shortly after she got elected, she ended up over the tax committee. The commit, I don't remember the exact committee name, but the committee over taxes for the state of Utah. And she learned or she just learned and became interested after she learned and grow. So we don't have to have a degree in certain areas, but but uh learning how to read spreadsheets and so forth, there's classes that we can can do to figure that out. We're smart!

Ann Mackin 28:39

And also I tell women when you're if you get appointed to a board or a commission, be prepared when you go to that meeting, read down download everything and read it, read previous uh board minutes, finding confidence.

Dr. Susan Madsen 28:52

You know, and sometimes then we we fall into the trap of of putting all this extra time and thinking we have to be over prepared, and that's another issue for another day. And one other thing that I was thinking while we were talking, I just don't want it, it is confidence, and we need to do that, but there's also that pushback of um of culture and people pushing back. That's still alive and and I was gonna say alive and well, but why do we say that? Alive and sucks. I mean, I don't know, it's not well. I don't know. So we like we got to keep moving. What do you think about that question? I understand how to get involved in civic activities for listeners. Um, if you combine both of them, it's about uh somewhat agree. So I think there's still a lot of work to do with with helping women and some men. I'm looking at the men's, and the men is is actually higher, not a ton, but significantly higher than women. Men will say, of course, they have this confidence. And I I joke with my husband already, men naturally have more confidence, even if they're incompetent. So women, we we have confidence when we're confident. So did you follow that? Um, there's there's definitely some work to do if if quite a few people don't understand how to get involved. Sui Lang, thoughts.

Sui Lang Panoke 30:21

Well, I would just say women are just naturally drawn to a good cause, right? We want to give back. We're a bunch of do-gooders, right? We lead with our heart, you know, and again, I'm making a lot of general generalizations here. But with that said, uh, that's why these boards and commissions uh opportunities are such a great starting point uh to start growing your network, to start developing those skill sets, to start just educating yourself and preparing yourself uh to pursue and rise amongst the ranks of leadership. Um, also want to note that you know, Utah ranks top in the nation when it comes to volunteerism, when it comes to charitable contributions, when it comes to social mobility. And I think all of a lot of those standings are largely part of women's contributions um to serving in the community. And so uh for me, a big part of the equation is converting that. I describe it as social capital compassion and you know, and passion into uh converting that into that economic piece, right? The confidence piece and crossing over into the hard skills piece, right? Women generally lead with the soft skills and soft topics, you know, that the issues facing our communities, but how do we cross over into those hard topics like security, like taxes, as you mentioned, uh with the LG, you know, into those areas. And so if we could build, you know, mentorships or bridge building and intentionally push more women across into the some of those areas, I think we'll see a significant increase in the political arena. So going from that volunteer piece to the political, elected, national statewide, federal, national. Yeah, and that's absolutely grow the pipeline.

Dr. Susan Madsen 32:22

And one thing we haven't talked about really is uh that basic level of just voting. We've got to make sure we vote. So we vote

Sui Lang Panoke 32:33

can I note that, Susan? And and I shared this this data at the Utah Women Run Annual Training this year. Since 1980, women have out uh outnumbered our male counterparts when it comes to showing up to the polls and registering to vote. And so we do represent the largest voting block in the nation. Uh, you know, it's over 50 percent. Uh, however, you know, here's here's the catch. Uh, good luck on getting all women to agree on something. No,

Dr. Susan Madsen 33:03

no. And we need to, by the way, we are showing up. Yeah. Yet we there's still a significant number of women and men that are not. And I worry about, we could go on and on. We're almost to the end of our podcast, though, but I worry about keeping these uh college student aged people engaged and wanting to vote uh as well. So let's go to that last one, and I'll have you you start. Our last one is I engage in efforts important to the well-being of my community. And so again, that is uh representative sample 4.75 um and convenience sample right between somewhat agree and agree. And uh men are are right in the same space there. So somewhat agree, let's just put it right there. They somewhat agree. Don't you think, Ann, we need to definitely increase that so more people feel they are engaged and know ways that they can engage in the well-being of their community? And that's a broad question, right?

Ann Mackin 34:15

I think so too. Uh when I was looking at that and looking at some of the numbers, uh, what does that mean? I'm engaged. Um, uh for some people, the the for the the greater good of my community that could be uh volunteering in in your local church or your congregation, but I think we we need to do a better job of expanding that and seeing the greater good of your community, whether it's the city you live in or the state of Utah or for heaven's sake, this country. I think trying to tap into more women's, as you would say, Sui Lang, to lead with their heart and to uh find ways to serve the greater good of their community outside just maybe PTA for children's education and and and broader issues. So, but I was actually again looking at those numbers, I was rather heartened to see that a very many respondents and across married, unmarried, with children, college educated, it was I I thought the responses were quite quite positive. I was

Dr. Susan Madsen 35:24

I think we can do better. You know, what's interesting is you you kind of took while you were talking, I was looking at this question and I was wondering, are there people, I don't know, you may disagree. I was thinking, are there people that read that question and because they only do church service, think no? Um, let me read the question again. I engage in efforts important to the well-being of my community. And I wonder if some people, again, that just do church don't think that's their community. I I, you know, that that think, oh, it's just my church group. Yet in reality, or or PT, in reality, that is all part of the community. So I wonder always, you know, I do a lot of research, so I wonder about all these things. Sui Lang, some thoughts as we conclude.

Sui Lang Panoke 36:17

Yeah, no, I agree. Um, my final thoughts is this when women run, women win.

Ann Mackin 36:24

Yes, they do.

Sui Lang Panoke 36:25

And at Utah Women Run, we see every run as a win.

Dr. Susan Madsen 36:30

I love that.

Sui Lang Panoke 36:30

Um, and going back to that confidence piece, I think it's like, I don't know, does a woman have to be asked 27 times before she to run before she'll actually file for public office? So, any of you out there that knows a woman who is well suited and qualified with the confidence to run, I encourage you to ask her to run.

Dr. Susan Madsen 36:50

Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Ann, the last 30 seconds, final thought?

Ann Mackin 36:57

Um, Sui Lang, I want to thank you for continuing to drive Utah Women Run. And I know that your last event was well attended. And I think it is an organization like that has made, has really moved the needle, as Dr. Susan Madsen would say, has really moved the needle on women's representation in this state. So I my hat's off to you, Susan.

Dr. Susan Madsen 37:21

Thank you so much. Uh I appreciate Ann and Suey Lang uh for joining me today on this podcast episode, hosted by the Utah Women and Leadership Project at Utah State University in partnership with Utah Public Radio and USU Extension. And thanks to Nick Poreth for his technical support. As a reminder, the Utah Women and Leadership Project's core mission is to strengthen the impact of Utah girls and women. To learn more about this topic as well as other topics, um, particularly around our research and resources and events, you can visit us at utwomen.org. And a few times in this episode, we've talked about UWLP's statewide initiative called A Bolder Way Forward. To learn more, to become engaged, we invite you to visit a bolderwayforward.org. Thanks so much for joining us today.