Male Allyship

In this episode, Dr. Susan Madsen explores key findings from the newly released 2025 white paper “Home, Health, Community, & Allyship 2025: Utahns’ Awareness, Understanding, and Attitudes.” Drawing on insights from an 83‑item survey of more than 5,200 Utahns, this conversation focuses specifically on male allyship: how men perceive their role in supporting women and girls, and how those attitudes have shifted over the past three years. Dr. Madsen is joined by two guests, Richard Hawkes and Brie Sparks, to discuss the challenges, trends, and opportunities shaping allyship efforts across Utah’s homes, workplaces, and communities.

Guests

Richard Hawkes

Director of Programs, Northrop Grumman
Former Chair, Diversity, Equity & Inclusion Council
Richard has led initiatives that expand opportunities and support for underrepresented groups across his organization.

Brie Sparks

Associate Director, Utah Women & Leadership Project
Brie guides statewide strategy and partnerships that strengthen opportunities for Utah women and girls. She is known for her collaborative leadership, operational expertise, and commitment to building communities where women can thrive.

Download the full 2025 white paper HERE.

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Transcript

Susan Madsen 0:02

Welcome to the Utah Women and Leadership Podcast. In this episode, we're focusing on one element of our recently released white paper titled Home, Health, Community, and Allyship: 2025 Utahns Awareness, Understanding, and Attitudes. I know that's a big title. We've got like four different key things in that. And in this one, we're going to really just focus on that allyship piece. So uh love it. Got great guests here. I'm Dr. Susan Madsen, professor of leadership in the Utah State University Extension, and I'm founding director of the Utah Women and Leadership Project. So for today's episode, I'm delighted to welcome Richard Hawkes, Director of Programs at Northrop Grumman. Richard previously chaired his business unit's Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Council, where he helped expand opportunities and support for underrepresentative groups across the organization. And also joining us is Brie Sparks, the associate director of the Utah Women and Leadership Project. She guides statewide strategy and partnerships that strengthen opportunities for Utah women and girls. And she's known for her collaborative leadership, operational expertise, and commitment to building communities where women can thrive. So thank you both for being here today.

Brie Sparks 1:27

Thank you.

Richard Hawkes 1:28

Glad to be here.

Susan Madsen 1:29

So this conversation draws on findings from an 83-item survey conducted in October, November, just last year in 2025, which gathered responses from more than 5,200. I always emphasize that because that's a lot of people in Utah across both two different samples, a representative sample. We worked with Qualtrex, about 2,000 people there, and then over 3,000 in our convenience sample in all 29 counties across the state of Utah. So this is our third consecutive year of data collection, giving us really a valuable opportunity to examine how perceptions and experiences have shifted or not shifted, I should say. In some respects, we'll look at the items, survey items really since 2023 and then 2024. So uh we'll walk through uh some key insights from that male allyship section. And if we have a few minutes, uh Bri, I'll warn you. We also have just a little um section of some qualitative comments on women being allies to other women, which is important as well. So uh, Richard, I think we had a podcast last year and I asked you the same initial question, but I think it's an important question. You've been involved in A Bolder Way Forward really since the start of it, and we've connected for years. Why are you so passionate about this topic of male allyship?

Richard Hawkes 3:08

I guess the question is, is my answer consistent?

Susan Madsen 3:11

Yeah, I don't know.

Richard Hawkes 3:12

For for me, it's actually pretty selfish. Um, in all in my career, as I've progressed through a few different companies and different organizations, what I find is that if I don't have a uh a diverse um thought process surrounding me, that I don't make the best decisions. And so I tend to surround myself with people who don't think the same way I do. And in my current role right now, I mean I've got a few managers, and if you sat in a meeting with us and we joke about it, but one, you couldn't tell who was in charge and who wasn't, and two, you'd wonder if we even got along because of the different ideas that get kicked around, and then we finally settle on one, and I have to make a decision. Um, but women bring a different perspective,

Susan Madsen 4:08

Yeah

Richard Hawkes 4:09

and it's extremely valuable perspective, and a lot of the success that I've had has been as a result of that different thought process, and I'm I'm avoiding using the term diversity because I think it gets overused, it's just the different thought process, and then as I've gotten into it, I found that I needed to get involved more so to help others to do that and to help them progress in their careers and um some other things, and so I have the privilege of mentoring, I think it's I'm up to seven, um early career, mid-career um females here within our organization to help them progress in their careers too, because I like that they just have great perspectives.

Susan Madsen 4:56

I love that. And and when you understand what you know, the things that you're talking about, when you get it, you can actually be more powerful as an influence on men to become male allies too. And Brie, uh, you and I work together every day, um, almost, uh, and uh we this comes up a lot, and you have been passionate about in our work with societal change, we've got to get men on board. And and I would say even boys down the road, we've got to start that. Tell tell us a little bit more about your passion around this topic.

Brie Sparks 5:33

Yeah, and this is deeply personal to me, and I I recognize my privilege when I say that some of the most meaningful allies overall in my life have been the men that are within my family. Um, my sons, my husband, my dad, my brothers-in-law. Um, they have always believed in me, but uh expressed confidence in me to do anything, which made me believe it myself, because if they could believe it, then I could believe it. Um, but I think it's important that allyship can't just be words. Um, I'm fortunate to experience that in trust and encouragement and shared responsibility in the home. Um, I feel it in being recognized as a provider for my children and my family, both financially and emotionally, and in having the freedom to grow and lead and um achieve beyond those traditional expectations. And I wouldn't be able to do that without these male allies in my life. And so I think that it is so important that that starts at a young age um because that that impacts the the thinking and undoing, undoing thinking is harder than training from the beginning.

Susan Madsen 6:55

Yeah, and and and we know that from the national and global research that the more you have divided roles, like men should do this, women should do this, you tend to not have as much male allyship. And so we struggle with that in Utah, but I I do see hope. I do see uh good uh men stepping forward and and many that have asked me, you know, I feel awkward in this space, but I want to learn and grow, and I love that. So in our survey, I mentioned the survey at the start. Um, we put out survey items. So they're not really questions, they're called items, and one through seven, they people can choose what to put. One is strongly disagree, seven is strongly agree, four is neither one or unknown in the middle. So I want to start with your both of your perceptions around the findings related to our first question. And this this is it's not a question. I keep challenging myself. It's a statement. Men in Utah are supportive of women becoming leaders. So that's the statement. Um, and uh, you know, we're coming in. Uh it's interesting. We have two samples, uh, the representative sample from all 29 county coming in right at a four, right at a four. And actually, uh, what I thought was interesting is in our convenience sample, which was usually more aware, um, higher education, higher income, it was even lower. It was 3.3, which is pretty much somewhat disagree. Um, what are some of your thoughts? Richard, jump in. Um we've got to, you know, hopefully, this is a perception of all of Utah, but our hope is that we're gonna change that and more people will feel men and women will feel that men are more supportive down the road. Any thoughts that come up as you read this?

Richard Hawkes 9:06

Yeah, my um, so my work and employment background has exposed me to uh just a variety of different education levels, which usually translates into um different types of thinking than that. I find that the more educated um an individual is, the more open they are and um agreeable that yeah, there's uh there's a lot of opportunities, and there's less. This is a man's job, this is a woman's job. You get out on the shop floor.

Susan Madsen 9:40

Um, interesting. Yeah.

Richard Hawkes 9:43

There's still, hey, my supervisor needs to be a man, and we we've done a lot of things to break that stereotype. Okay, now I do think that the you know it comes in at a four, you probably ought to look at the standard deviation on that, too. But um I think everything averages to that. But what what we're finding though is that we still have pockets of and I'm gonna just call it education levels for lack of a better term. We have pockets where there are perceptions. Hey, my mechanic needs to be a man, you know, men understand automotive. There's still some of that thinking.

Susan Madsen 10:22

So we've got some there's a lot of that thinking, I think.

Richard Hawkes 10:25

You're being kind, and you know, I I've been exposed to a lot of machine shops, and uh, you know, there's some really good activities, um, you know, um uh at in different some of the very progressive machine shops where they're working on training women to to be machine operators, CNC operators, yeah, and they're giving them internships and and things like that. So there's a lot of efforts towards this, but it's just taking some time. And now I'm I'm not gonna tell you my age, but I also come from a generation that it's really difficult to change minds. Yeah, you know, and as Brie was talking, I I I remember early in my career, I was told um, you know, if you're meeting with a female, you got to keep your door open or somebody else has to be with you. And it took a long time to break that habit.

Susan Madsen 11:16

Yeah, yeah, and we still hear that a lot of organizations do. I think there are companies, organized employers that are doing better than others, but it takes intentional effort. Brie, I was gonna ask you, I'm sure you noticed that there was a significant difference between the way men responded to that question and the way women responded to that question. So tell me, uh

Brie Sparks 11:42

that's exactly what I wanted to jump on. Um, because the the what it what this is telling me is that when men say, but we are supportive, I support women. I um am all for them becoming leaders, but women are not, that's not translating to them. They are still not seeing it, and that's where male allyship is not just about intention, it's about action. And it's not just about like thinking in your head, I support women. It is about listening, learning, using your influence to open doors for women um and and being able to express that, to openly share that. And we're seeing some um shifts. You know, I've I've seen just on LinkedIn more men starting to highlight some of these disparities between men and women and in Utah specifically. Um and I would say if we asked if those men are supportive of women, the women would probably say yes. But how will I know that you support me unless you show me it's not just something that's personal?

Susan Madsen 12:59

Oh, that is so interesting. One one thing that caught my eye on the demographics for that one I thought was so interesting, is we had enough because our samples were so big, we had enough men who were full-time homemakers. They checked that. And uh they were the ones that were the highest saying that that men um that they think men are supportive of women becoming leaders. That kind of makes sense, right? Because they're doing that job. Um, but it is interesting um that the people with the the greater awareness um understand or see that men are not as supportive as they need to be, I think. So let's shift over. Oh, so Richard.

Richard Hawkes 13:47

Before you move on though, um one of the key differences is you know, me as a male, I don't live it every day.

Susan Madsen 13:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Richard Hawkes 13:55

I I I see it, I observe it, and I get involved, but Brie lives it every day. And and so you know, she'll she'll be able to pick out the nuances that I may not be sensitive to. And as as we've done a lot of this research and I've talked around the state, one of the biggest problems that we have is men recognizing that it is still a problem. That's it. And I think that's a really important point. And as as I've you know gone and um give them speeches and classes and things, that's the point that I really want men to understand is step one recognize that we're not perfect yet, we're not there, and we still have a lot of men in the state that think we're equal.

Susan Madsen 14:50

We're all yeah.

Richard Hawkes 14:51

Well, maybe in your mind there is, but we still have a problem.

Susan Madsen 14:54

Yeah, there's this uh surface level of, and and and it ties into what's called benevolent sexism. There's still hostile sexism, but benevolent sexism is you know, we we think things are good, and yeah, come over to our company, but there's this lack of understanding about biases, about uh the cultures and how all of those things impact. So let's move to our second question, which is fairly close to our first question. It's a little bit different. Here's the statement Men in Utah are engaged in efforts to have more women in leadership roles. So fairly close, but even those statistical means are slightly even lower than that first one. Um, interested, I mean, right, well, 3.99. So right about that four, even a little bit lower. And then the convenience sample was even lower. So, so there's really with especially with the women, and the men, of course, are are higher, significantly higher on that one. But what were some of the the thoughts that came up? Brie, why don't you start on this one, on on this particular one?

Brie Sparks 16:09

Yeah, I think that word engagement or engaged, it it is a little ambiguous to some people, I think. Well, what does that mean to be engaged in efforts to have women in leadership roles? I'm open to it. Does that mean that I'm engaged? Or am I actively recruiting or pursuing or looking at my workforce now and trying to promote women from within? Um, I think that that that term um means things differently um depending on how you look at it. And I know that, you know, when we're talking about leadership roles, we tend to think um, you know, that's in the workplace. Um but it but that we're we're talking about politics, we're talking about um any leadership role within a community, within a church, within an organization, even within a family. Um, and so I think active engagement is really hard to define.

Susan Madsen 17:09

I and I think you brought up such an important point because the first survey item was men in Utah are supportive. And then the second one is they're actually engaged, and that really is that deeper level we were just talking about. They're actually doing something. What came to mind when you read these results, Richard?

Richard Hawkes 17:30

So um you know, I I've never run into a man who says, nope, women belong in their place and they shouldn't uh um you know that they they don't deserve to be part of that, or you know, yeah, they're relegated to these things. Um everyone that I've come in contact with, and it's been a lot.

Susan Madsen 17:54

Um that's good.

Richard Hawkes 17:56

I would consider verbally very supportive of it. And so it's it's an interpretation of the question. But my fear is that over the last couple of years, you know, we've had a reduction in DE and I. And but that's what that's also done is it separated out the those that gave lip service to those that really truly believe that we needed to do something different, okay. And we with the male allyship team, we actually saw an increase in the number of people that raised their hand and said, Hey, how can I get more involved? But I think that's of the concern is how do I, as a man, get involved or get engaged in some of these activities? And what they don't realize is it could be just as easy as showing up. You know, if you see an event, and I know we've got uh an equal pay event coming up, just show up, you know, support the speakers, support um the uh the idea and that kind of stuff. And so um I think part of it is men don't know how to be engaged.

Susan Madsen 19:03

Yeah, that's true.

Richard Hawkes 19:04

Just give us your name and your email address, and we can put you on the male ally army list, and we'll send you uh suggestions on how to how to get engaged.

Susan Madsen 19:12

Yeah, and there's some great books out there. I know one I recommended to Richard a few years ago called Good Guys. And and uh I need to invite those two back, actually, um, to do another session with us on a webinar. They live back uh east, but they were so great to do a session. I know them. Oh, Richard, I I know you listening in cannot see the video, but -ha- but Richard is holding up three copies of the good guys book. Do you just have them ready in case?

Richard Hawkes 19:45

I have seven copies! Four of them are out on loan right now.

Susan Madsen 19:49

Okay (laughter) Well, they're practical books and they give tips and talk about things like you just brought up um in terms of of you know, if you're gonna have the door open for when you're meeting with a woman, have a door open when you're meeting with men too. I remember hearing that you know that in that book.

Richard Hawkes 20:12

So that that book has actually made me a better manager.

Susan Madsen 20:16

Oh I love it.

Richard Hawkes 20:17

Period. And the reason for it is that it helped me understand so the the world through you know what was happening through a woman's eyes and the the difference in thought process, which made me more sensitive as I led meetings and did other things. But the the principles that I learned apply for other minorities as well.

Susan Madsen 20:38

Yeah, yeah.

Richard Hawkes 20:39

And so as I've applied that, man, I am getting so much more out of when I get a group together and I start using that, I get I get more ideas than I did before because I'm using the techniques they um they teach in the book.

Susan Madsen 20:54

And so that that's a great point because when you learn to be an ally, uh, for instance, I have really worked with myself since 2020, right at the beginning of the pandemic, read a ton of books, just awkwardly joined groups uh about women of color, about race and ethnicity. And it's helped me more in the work I'm doing in other areas as well, whether it's LGBTQ or race or women or you know, any of those things. I love that perspective. The third question, we're digging in, they're fairly kind of close. This doesn't relate to women and leadership, though. It's just Utah men are interested in supporting women. Um and all of them were heading into about the same statistical mean, a little bit different here and there, but we're seeing that. And and Brie, again, we're seeing the men about, and that's not just a Utah thing. Can I just say that in national and global research on male allyship, men feel like they're doing better than women on supporting, but but even on studies about housework, domestic labor, caregiving, men are like, I'm doing good. And women are like, men are not doing as good. So hey, at least we're not totally in the negative and low here. But man, there's a lot of room for for awesome improvement. Uh Brie, why don't you start on this one again? What are some thoughts?

Brie Sparks 22:29

What was interesting to me about this is comparing to the previous question, the interest uh mean was higher because I think at their core, like men are interested in supporting women, right? And and engagement versus interest is different. But what I have this reflects kind of what I've seen is that there are men especially here in Utah who are um championing who are champions of women.

Susan Madsen 23:03

Yes.

Brie Sparks 23:04

Not just in in conversation or in the boardroom, but publicly in policy rooms, classrooms, and especially their own homes, right? They're asking better questions, they're listening, they're learning and they're kind of taking ownership over this awareness that I want to do better. And this interest in supporting I think um gives

Susan Madsen 23:30

I think oh I love that I also think that more men are thinking about their own daughters their sisters their you know and thinking this is a like an unstable world right now. And uh it's not just an unstable world but but the marriage rates have decreased. I mean there's not even if you're looking to get married it it's a struggle. And so I think more men are saying looking at their daughters their granddaughters their you know people around them and and and really saying we've got to be prepared in our society and people around me to to thrive better. So I feel like those personal experiences probably more that would be a guess though I don't have the data on that.

Brie Sparks 24:17

Can I share a real life story that I actually just heard this morning I was in a conversation um with a man who has really uh experienced um watching the need for male allyship as a child of a single mother growing up actually in another country but seeing the struggles there and then looking at his children his wife and potential struggles there has decided to really look into how can I help? How can I be a male ally? And it was so interesting to hear that that is sometimes what is raising that interest in supporting women is uh seeing the women in your life that you love that care for you and wanting better for them. Not, you know, it doesn't have to be I want all women to be all things let it start with the ones that are closest to you.

Susan Madsen 25:12

I love that. Richard I'm I'm looking at time and I want to move move us along a little bit. So I would you already showed us the good guys book but uh here's the fourth survey item there are opportunities and resources available to help Utah men become better allies for women. So that one is is really interesting and we're and we're seeing again just right around the same numbers where we're you know statistical mean um because I think there's a lot of men and a lot of women honestly who don't know about the resources available and Richard I don't think there have been resources especially like what we pulled together in the Utah Women and Leadership Project that are out there for men. They're not talked about I maybe you're seeing something different Richard in the last couple of years. But if people don't know there's resources they won't seek them out, right?

Richard Hawkes 26:15

And and that's one of the problems that we run into um there's lots of resources we've developed them there's books um but you've got to go looking for them and so it actively takes some effort but uh I I think also some investigation too um what I'm finding with most is word of mouth um most of the male allies that we have we touched in some way or somebody that's in the male ally army touched somebody and they said oh yeah you want here's a great resource here join this and so for us it's getting the word out and you know we've had campaigns on um LinkedIn um where we're recognizing male allies and and those things have gotten attention where um we'll have men reach out and say I didn't know those things existed. No I love that and so the more we get those who are listening to this podcast talking about it and saying yeah that you know we we've got the this uh Utah women leadership project we've got a Bolder Way Forward going on all you have to do is do a Google search on Bolder Way Forward and off you go. Yeah that type of thing but we just got to keep getting the word out um that there are resources.

Susan Madsen 27:29

There really are and and we have and I don't know if you've seen that yet Richard but we have a new resource library for the Utah Women and Leadership Project with 25 topics and one of those is male allyship. So all the things that you were talking about and I was talking about they're all on one page now. And so hopefully uh we can remember to put that link in the show notes um so people if they're listening to this podcast can get over to it. And honestly I mean this is for women and men we both need to know about the resources um so that women can suggest them but also I like reading books on male allyship it helps me know how to approach and and do the work and and help mentor men in this space as well. Brie, any other thoughts on that uh resource question?

Brie Sparks 28:24

Yeah I think uh when we talk about resources, um you know the course is great we've got lots of books we can read but I think the women in your life are also a resource because they can tell you how to show up, how to um support them, whether that's you know through your the way you communicate with them, through your personal interactions, your professional interactions. I think they that women are a resource uh to male allies and um can help you understand some of the um disparities that that we face and and what will make a difference right because Dr. Madsen always likes to say throw spaghetti at the wall right and we don't want to just look up stuff on the internet and say well now I'm just doing male allyship and this is something that's going to make a difference. But if it's really going to make a difference we have to look at the people that we're trying to make a difference for and that's the women in our lives and our communities um and and in Utah.

Susan Madsen 29:30

I love that great comment and I wanted to just leave a couple minutes at the end there were some qualitative comments for this um and and in fact in the report um it it goes through the details of you know that the most people that made comments said men should support women or men need more education or men are not supportive. So kind of in the space that we've been talking about but what I want to leave the last couple minutes for is there were a lot of comments about how women should be allies to other women and that's not exactly in your impact team or your your team work, Richard, but it's in the work of all of uh the UWLP as well as A Bolder Way Forward. Were there any interesting quotes that popped out to you or any any of your uh insights um that would that would be useful yeah

Richard Hawkes 30:29

So early in my career I looked at diversity programs as competition and it's like okay if they gave it to this person I don't get that job um that type of thing and as I've matured what I've realized is the rising tide lifts all boats.

Susan Madsen 30:48

Yes

Richard Hawkes 30:48

use the term um yeah I might not get that position or get what I wanted to but if I help the most qualified person get it it lifts everybody

Susan Madsen 31:02

yeah

Richard Hawkes 31:02

and and we'll all succeed together and I think those comments are right um I've sat in groups where the biggest struggle has been women not being allies of women

Susan Madsen 31:16

yeah that scarcity but that but but sometimes it is there have been cultures where people and and I think it comes from that where people are like oh we already have "The Woman"

Richard Hawkes 31:29

yeah

Susan Madsen 31:29

in this spot on this board in this space but I think it's changing but still that that and I do think most women are supportive of other women but sometimes you get that right we've all seen that Brie you're you're putting some good thinking time into this

Brie Sparks 31:49

yeah there's a couple things um and and one that I think might be a little more unique in Utah um that women experience um a lack of allyship from other women because there's this um you're not doing what a woman should be doing whether that's you're a woman in the workforce versus staying at home and caring for your kids. And I think sometimes that judgmental or someone stepping outside of the standard social expectation causes a lack of allyship for people to not feel supported to do those things that are different, that are you know not the norm or the cultural norm. And the other thing I think about is um you know there's I'm sure there's some deeper research on this but self-insecurity and almost the um internalized sexism can prevent women from supporting other women because we see these little windows of opportunity and we have to run for them and we don't think let me bring my friends with me I just got to get through that glass ceiling by myself. And I think that that is something that um prohibits women from feeling like they're supported. But then I also appreciated that there were some comments saying that Utah has such great networks for women um whether that's professional or personal to feel supported understood part of a community that is aware of these issues and and where they can go for support and allyship.

Susan Madsen 33:24

I love that it's time to wrap up and I want to give each of you a minute or so so to just what are some final thoughts some final advice Richard let's have you start

Richard Hawkes 33:35

well I I'm gonna go right back to where I started is for the men listening out there don't just assume that somebody else is going to do it or that the problem's all solved um just be aware that there are issues and be sensitive to it and then take the next step and learn more about how can how can you you just just you personally be part of the solution that's all we're asking.

Susan Madsen 34:02

I love it. Brie

Brie Sparks 34:04

um yeah I think male allyship is essential for Utah because it is not just about um women it is about community is it about family and we are such a family friendly state and I think for us to miss this opportunity to step up as allies and allyship is about stepping off the sidelines and actively partnering with women to create change in workplaces, homes and communities. And then this changes what women see as possible it changes what your children see as possible. And it's not just about supporting women it benefits men, families workplaces and communities when we can um all support one another so just so important and I think remember it starts at home and ripples across.

Susan Madsen 34:57

It does. And Brie and Richard thank you so much for joining me to get today on this episode of the Utah Women and Leadership podcast hosted by the Utah Women and Leadership Project at Utah State University in partnership with Utah Public Radio and USU Extension and a special thanks to Nick Poreth for his excellent technical support. The Utah Women and Leadership Project's core mission is to strengthen the impact of Utah girls and women so to explore this topic further and to access research and resources and events on any topic you can visit us at utwomen.org and if you'd like to get involved in our statewide initiative that we already mentioned A Bolder Way Forward we have a male ally team that Richard co leads thank you for your work and we invite you to learn more about that and other things at abolderwayforward.org thanks for listening and being part of this important work.