Women in Skilled Trades

In this episode, Dr. Susan Madsen examines key findings from the newly released snapshot "Utah Women and Skilled Trades." This research brief explores national and statewide demand for skilled‑trades jobs, trends in women’s participation, and how employment and wages compare across occupations in Utah and the U.S. The conversation also highlights education and training pathways—particularly for young women—and outlines strategies to strengthen women’s representation in Utah’s skilled‑trades and construction workforce.

Dr. Madsen is joined by two leaders in this space—Concetta Defa and Dr. April Townsend—to unpack the data, discuss current challenges, and explore opportunities to support women pursuing careers in the trades.

Guests

Concetta Defa  
Project Consultant, Center for Energy Workforce Development
President, Utah Women in Trades

Dr. April Townsend 
Research Fellow, Utah Women & Leadership Project
Co‑Author, Utah Women and Skilled Trades  

Download the full snapshot HERE.

Visit the Utah Women & Leadership Project website.

Share this episode with colleagues, educators, employers, or anyone interested in strengthening women’s participation in Utah’s skilled‑trades workforce.

Follow the podcast and leave a review to help others discover the show!

Transcript

Dr. Susan Madsen 0:02

Welcome to the Utah Women and Leadership Podcast. In this episode, we're going to discuss our recently released snapshot titled Utah Women and Skilled Trades. This research snapshot examines national and local demand for skilled trades jobs, trends for women's participation, and then compares employment and wages across occupations in Utah and nationwide. It also highlights education and training pathways, especially for young women, and offers strategies to increase women's participation in Utah's skilled trades and construction workforces. We'll unpack all of that and more in today's episode. I'm Dr. Susan Madsen, Extension Professor of Leadership at Utah State University, and I'm also the founding director of the Utah Women and Leadership Project and oversee a bolder way forward. Today I'm welcoming two guests. First, Conchetta Defa, who is the president of the Utah Women and Trades, and I'm also welcoming Dr. April Townsend, who was a lead author for this snapshot. And she's also a research fellow with the Utah Women and Leadership Project here at Utah State University. Welcome to both of you today.

unknown 1:18

Thank you.

Concetta 1:19

Good morning.

Dr. Susan Madsen 1:21

So, Concetta, let's start with you. Just talk about why this topic is so interesting to you. And also you do a few other things as well. So talk about that.

Concetta 1:31

Yeah, well, by profession, I'm a I'm a an electrician by trade. So I've been an electrician for, well, it's 30 years now. And I've always been involved with not only um being mentored, I've had really good mentors in the past, but I've also mentoring other people coming into the trades. And more recently, I've learned so much over that time. Um, more recently, just really digging into women specifically, bringing more women into the trades. We need everybody. Um, but you know, that's that we'll talk about, I'm sure, a lot of the things of of why we we don't have enough women out there in the trades and why we need them now in the podcast. But the other things that I do are kind of related to that. So I'm I'm the president of Utah Women and Trades, but I also work, uh do some consulting work with the Center for Energy Workforce Development. That's kind of more on the national level. So I am the host of a podcast called Hire H-I-R-E Powher P O W H E R.

Dr. Susan Madsen 2:28

I love it.

Concetta 2:29

Yeah, and so that's kind of along the lines of that. And and that podcast, and there's a mentoring program with that, is also hey, how can we get, you know, women? We're talking to different women on the podcast that are in the industry and then trying to figure out how to mentor them through. The other thing that I do more on the local level is I'm the executive director for the Utah Building and Construction Trades Council. And that that work, that's kind of been a part of everything that I've been doing for my last 30 years anyway. And that brings all the different trades into the conversation in the work that I do with them. And so that's the 16, 15, 16 different trade unions who have been involved with trying to increase the amount of women in the different construction trades across the board for for quite some time now.

Dr. Susan Madsen 3:14

So well, thanks. I've appreciated uh interacting with you and hosting you at my home one time uh in discussions about women in the workforce and workforce development and trades is an important piece of that. And I don't think we talk about this very often in in society, in our communities. And so I've I've actually wanted to have us do this research snapshot for three or four years. Um, and we finally were able to make it a priority in April. Was like, I think this is interesting. We'll jump in. So, how is it mainly because you took that path of being an electrician that you became so interested in in women and trades and all of that? Because you're definitely passionate about this.

Concetta 4:02

Yeah, yeah. No, I grew up on a farm, so I didn't and I didn't know that there were different people who came and built, I just thought everybody showed up and built stuff. I mean, that's how it happened around my house. We didn't have we didn't hire contractors, we didn't, you know, have we, I mean, my great aunts and uncles built the houses on the farm and and so on and so forth. So I didn't know anything about the trades. Um and I kind of became one on accident. And once I once I got into the trades and realized that there's so much it was to opportunity there. Um, and I would and I had really good mentors that showed me, you know, here's the ups and downs of being a woman in the trade, right?

Dr. Susan Madsen 4:42

Yeah, yeah.

Concetta 4:43

But my experience by large has been really, really good. And and the things like, you know, when I have some of my family members that are like, I want to be you when I grow up, and this this is like, you know, my older family members, the women that like we never just had that opportunity and and stuff like that. So that's kind of inspiring for me. But what I realized is I was doing this for a long time and keeping track of the women, at least in my, you know, specifically in my my I'm a member of the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers and the local union here, and just keeping track of how many w women we had. And one day I decided to check, and it had been, I don't know, 20, 20 some odd years since I like and the amount of women had kind of stayed the same, but the amount of the people in the local altogether had grown. And so I started talking with the folks about why why is that a thing. And what I found out is it's because there's no intentionality. And here in Utah, there's women out there that want to do it. There are employers out there that want to hire them, but there you have to intentionally go out and say, okay, for find the women that want to do it, that show them that there is an avenue and that is something that they can do. Um, and and that it is a place for them. Because I I didn't realize how many people don't know that. I mean, there's definitely challenges, but as I'm doing the work that I'm doing and diving in, the women in Utah, they're not told to look at these types of careers as they grow up. And--

Dr. Susan Madsen 6:07

Absolutely.

Concetta 6:08

And and I think most of the women that I run into want to learn how to do a lot of this stuff. So it's kind of it's it's interesting.

Dr. Susan Madsen 6:18

Yeah. And April, uh, you know, I ran by a number of ideas for snapshots and briefs that you could work on next. And and this is one that rose up to the top. Why? Why did you find it so interesting?

Dr. April Townsend 6:33

Well, the one thing that I've always loved, you know, I'm passionate about women leaders. Um, and it's it often takes us into places where women aren't a majority. It's usually a male-dominated area, um, particularly on leadership. But when you start getting into specific trades, and and I'll just share really quickly, I was uh department director for one of our local counties, and the some of the organizations that I was over was fleet, facilities, IT, all very male-dominated. And one of the things that I challenged our folks was how can we intentionally try to get more women into these industries? What do we need to do? Be on the lookout for ways, partnerships, other things that we can do. And so being able to do this research in this area where, you know, former life was trying to encourage more on and being able to sit down and talk with Concetta and about her experiences and the and the changes that she has seen and is trying to help happen, it just really underscored that this is an area we haven't paid enough attention to.

Dr. Susan Madsen 7:34

Yeah. Thank you so much. And April, I'm gonna ask you the first main question. And as you really looked back at the literature and then dug into so many sources, and and people some people didn't answer, right? It they weren't used to us asking for gendered data in this space. And uh so it was interesting. But as you really took that and set the stage nationally, what are some things that you think would be helpful for listeners to understand, first of all? I mean, there's more than 8 million people working in construction and skilled trades. And and and I just was in my mind calling them trades. So why did you put the skilled at the beginning? That's a basic question for me.

Dr. April Townsend 8:19

Well, I'm probably gonna defer to Concetta on that one because it's kind of a big um area that you could cover. Am I right?

Concetta 8:28

Yeah, that's kind of it's probably a little bit of internal jargon. You know, we we call our our our trades the skilled trades. We just we have um for a long time. And you know, I'm actually learning when I say trade that people are thinking of all sorts of things that not for me, a trade has always meant construction. And so it was weird to me that when like, well, you know, hair hairdressing is a trade. And I'm like, God, I just didn't think of it that way. Um, so for me, just saying trade was always just construction trades. So skilled trades is something in within the industry that we always call the electricians and the plumbers and the all the different trades.

Dr. Susan Madsen 9:05

And one of the tables, I'll go back to you, um, April, but one of the tables on occupations that you put together for this brief had craft labor, carpenter, mason, brick and block, um, heavy equipment operator, iron worker, electrician, boiler maker. Is that still a thing? I I heard that over and I don't understand what that is. Um uh roofer, pipe fitter, and painter. Those were the ones at least that made it into our chart. But back to you, um, just for listeners, I think they would find that interesting to know of the the different titles. But what did you find overall, April, in terms of looking at what was happening nationally?

Dr. April Townsend 9:53

Well, first I was surprised at the um worker shortage that I mean, almost everything I was reading was indicating look, we've got 40% of the skilled workforce in this particular industry looking to retire in the next few years. You know, you you look down the five, five, ten years, and there's a major turnover in the number of people that are doing this as a profession. And you can imagine it's going to take a toll on your body. Some of these um, you know, uh grades that are involved, um, they really do take a toll on you. And so if you have people retiring and you see that there's a worker shortage, one um uh thing that I identified was over two million on the expected uh a worker shortage over the next few years. And so as you uh if you're in that industry, you've got to be thinking, okay, we have got to do something proactive, intentional, like you were saying, to address this and what does that look like? And so it really was starting to identify with the shortage, there becomes opportunity.

Dr. Susan Madsen 10:55

Yeah. And Concetta in the groups specifically in Utah that you're connected with, are you hearing any projections of numbers and that shortage conversation here in the state of Utah as well?

Concetta 11:08

Yeah, the um I can't remember all the exact numbers because it's kind of like fluctuated a little bit here recently, but it's still um it's something like 80,000, I think I've heard is a number over the next, but we're talking by 2030. They need like like 80,000 a year every year to like 2030, and that's not that far away.

Dr. Susan Madsen 11:31

No, it used to be, but it's not far away anymore.

Concetta 11:35

You look at most of these crafts, the way that you learn how to do these trades is going through an apprenticeship, and your apprenticeships here are anywhere from three to five years in these in these fields. So if we're that's the window we have to make sure that we have all of this workforce shortage um addressed.

Dr. Susan Madsen 11:55

And these are fairly well-paid positions, correct? I mean, many of them, maybe not all of them, but they're you could support a family, which in some occupations you can't even support a family. You have to have two jobs and so forth. Uh teaching is one of those that's that's kind of rough. Thoughts.

Concetta 12:16

Which is unfortunate because I think teaching is you know a very, a very um it should I I have always thought teachers should be the highest paid and athletes maybe lower, right?

Dr. Susan Madsen 12:29

Um but uh we're seeing some of the same trends, Concetta, right? Uh in terms of we've got national tables uh that that project so many the projected demand nationwide for craft labors are two and a half million people. And so do those trends kind of follow in Utah based on our population? I would think so.

Concetta 12:53

Well, it's it's actually I would say that it's maybe a little less based on our population and more based on the growth of our state. So and our state is growing more in just pop than in just population. So if you look at the expected infrastructure, you know, when it comes to uh power generation, when it comes to data centers, when it comes to just getting ready for the Olympics, all of those things, I mean, that that's all all of that starts with the trade work, right? Um and so, well, maybe not starts, but somebody's got to plan it. But you know, but as far as as far as the the you know getting everything done, that's all trade work. And so that's a nice big 10-year worth of a runway, I think, that we're we might even be a little bit further behind than the rest of the country in in some aspect.

Dr. Susan Madsen 13:41

Well, and I would think this is this is again my gut, um, is we have a lot because we're growing in population, we and we're behind on housing and all of that, at least in the construction sector. We're we're probably building more than most states in the nation, I would think. And so doesn't that uh implique, you know, kind of go towards those that need as well?

Concetta 14:07

Yeah, it it doesn't matter what it is in the state, if they're building it, it is a construction worker. So housing is right up the the the same alley, you know. We we're facing the a housing shortage, um, affordable housing on top of that. Uh so yeah, there's there's no lack for wanting of construction workforce.

Dr. Susan Madsen 14:25

Yes, that's true. Uh April, you you really researched into and wrestled with skilled trades employment projections. What what few things kind of came up, rose to the top in terms of of things that you think would important would be important for for listeners to understand?

Dr. April Townsend 14:46

No, I think as we're looking forward, um, somebody who's considering going into the trades, really being able to understand, okay, where are we seeing the demand? Because if you're going to spend time and money um investing in yourself to develop that skill trade, you know, then you need to be able to feel at the end of it that it was worth it, that you saw the benefit from that. And so understanding where we've seen, and and in one of our charts, we do show both Boilermaker and Carpenters in some of the top two, that those are areas in Utah that we really can anticipate that there's going to be a demand there. So if somebody's like, oh, I don't know where to commit, well, looking at some of that potential demand could help. Yeah.

Dr. Susan Madsen 15:30

I've always heard though that women do well in welding. And I think it's I've always heard that that because of the fine motor skills and so forth that women, but women don't think of that generally as a career option. And I'm sure there's other things as well, like electricians and so forth. We just assume a man will show up. And here in Utah, I don't think I've ever seen a woman show up to my house or in my neighborhood that are electricians. Um, so I uh, you know, I I think I'll go into the unless you have any other comments about that section, uh, Concetta, I think there's I'd love to shift to cultural perceptions. And I think I don't know if Utah's more than the nation. I know in most areas we're we're exaggerated. Most states would have less women thinking of the trades as careers. And uh, but in Utah, we tend to have even more of those. Uh, we have a bigger gap in women considering those as options. What have you seen in your conversations, Conchetta? And and just being in this industry, you've lived in Utah for quite a few years then.

Concetta 16:45

Born and raised.

Dr. Susan Madsen 16:46

Oh, okay. There you go. What have you seen?

Concetta 16:50

So some of the things I've seen, I've I've seen a cultural shift. I mean, okay, so I'm not that old, I don't think, but um, you know, I remember high school counselors, you know, you know, definitely pushing you into traditional uh type of education for what they thought was traditional for who you were, right? What based on gender. And I've seen that happening less and less and less over time, um, which is a good thing, but we also at the same time lost the you know, hair consider the trades as part of regardless of gender. So there is that. But um, I think there's a lot of misconceptions out there, and I think that's probably in both in general and gender specific. So, in general, the misconception about the trades being that's where you go when you can't make it anywhere else has been kind of a thing in the past, and really the trades, the skilled trades in the construction industry are filled with very, very intelligent, very, very educated, very high-skilled people. It's it's not what you you know see on the movies and and stuff like that. And so there's those kind of misconceptions. The other thing is that you have to be a big, burly, broody man to do the type of work, which there may have been a time in the past where that's you know, you definitely if you look at how they constructed Hoover Dam or things like that, you're looking at the work they're doing and you're like, yeah, you're gonna have to have some strength behind you. Um, but safety has actually kind of changed the industry a lot of times. So we talked about, you know, the toll that it takes on your body. So there's been so many things that happened because uh to try to avoid injury and and those kind of things that have changed the industry. So now we have more tools that are doing that kind of that heavy lifting for everybody, and that's kind of made it a better place for women to to be in and and get get going. Um and so we're seeing kind of that the work getting better for everybody that's allowed for women. But now it's about you know, the construction industry is really hard on things like childcare um because your hours change all the time, and based on your because your locations change and things like that. The ebbs and flows of the the construction, it's either feast or famine with it. We're working until you can't think straight, uh, you know, oh well, we we we're we're in between jobs, it's everything in between. So misconceptions about what that really means. And and I kind of tell people it's kind of like the other, it's the other uh part-time work when you're talking about women. So women are looking for like, okay, well, I need to work around part-time for this or that or the other. Well, this is like you can work a lot and then time off. Work a lot, time off.

Dr. Susan Madsen 19:29

Oh, yes.

Concetta 19:30

But the great part about the trades when we're looking at um, you know, if you're actively, you know, trying to overcome some of the things like family planning and that, there's ways to do it. So you just learn about the industry, and there's people in there that can help, you know, mentor you on figuring out what that looks like for you. But I think misconceptions are probably like the number one thing. I think women can, they just need to be told, look, you can do it. If you can carry, you know, my my daughter I use all the time because she had kids ten and a half months apart, and so she had one, you know, in a car seat and the other one wasn't quite mobile walking yet. So, you know, you get home from the grocery store and she sets one kid down and he just sits down because he can't walk, and then she's got to get the groceries, can't leave one kid in the car while you take the other, you know, and all that stuff. So she could hike in groceries and two kids all at the same time, and she was five, she's five foot nothing. I'm like, if you can do that, you can do this, right? And and I think some people discount the the work that women, physical work that women do, nursing, the the amount of strength and the the the things that you do, physical activity and in nursing, which is predominantly considered uh traditionally women's work.

Dr. Susan Madsen 20:38

But you do carry, you make such a good point. My daughter, I was just with six grandkids, and three of them are my daughters, and two um two of them are twins. They're two and a half now, and then but they come and jump. And I I don't know how many pounds they are, they've got to be 20, 30 pounds. I don't know by now. Um, but I'm like hauling them. And it is a heavy, heavy lift. My daughter can just do both of them and walk. So I'm sure that's 50, 40, or 50 pounds. That's interesting, interesting. Um April, I want to go over to you. So on our fall survey, for the last couple of years, we've asked the question jobs and trade fields are good career choices for women to pursue. And um our statistical means, so it's uh these questions are were agreement questions. One means strongly disagree, seven means strongly agree, four is like neither one, but in our representative sample, it was a little bit over five. So most people in Utah were saying somewhat agree, maybe. And for our convenience sample, which was three thousand, the representative sample was two thousand people. So these are big samples. It was almost up to six. So I'm thinking that we're making some progress. And interestingly, Um the people that were real young and real old didn't think it was good for women. Um, and more rural people thought it was good for women. People with more education said yes, trades, jobs would be good for and women said it more than men that that they would be good. People with higher income, people who are married, people who are native Hawaiian, Hispanic, white, um, agnostic and atheist said it would be better. I thought that was kind of interesting. And people that have been in Utah longer. Um, and and April, you saw some qualitative comments. Were most of them more positive, or were they talking about some of the challenges?

Dr. April Townsend 22:46

Well, they focused on, hey, here's an option. I mean, and um some were saying that if if you're not quite sure if you want to go to four-year college, look at a skilled trade as an option. I mean, that is something that absolutely is a option. Well, I do want to share there was one quote that it didn't make it into the final cut, but um I wanted to share one of the comments that we got from um folks, it said, I think all women contracting or trade industries would boom. Women make up most of the house to home decisions and to have to deal with most of the repairs and contractors entering the home. So having female electricians, plumbers, tile workers, heck yes, I would pay more for that.

Dr. Susan Madsen 23:30

Oh, that's interesting. I wonder if you could check and uh do any of the companies do that? Probably not check the box and say I would like a woman if she is available.

Concetta 23:41

I don't know if they do the check the box, but I do know there's a couple uh companies that have tried to recruit me because they're look they were looking for uh they found um that they have some female technicians in like HVAC and things like that, that they're customers. But you've got both. You've got some that, hey, I'd prefer the woman to come come in. I you know, feel safer that way or whatever. And then you've got others that still don't believe that women can do it. So when the women show up, they're just like, I don't think you're the right one.

Dr. Susan Madsen 24:08

Do you really know?

Concetta 24:09

Yeah, but I think the companies are looking at that and going, hey, we've got we've off obviously got enough demand that we're recruiting women in those positions.

Dr. Susan Madsen 24:19

So are you seeing in the last five years that more companies are learning and being more open to hiring women? Is it changing? Because it hasn't, it's been really harsh in the United States and in Utah um through the years. Are you seeing some at least change?

Concetta 24:39

Uh so it's kind of weird because I I mean I know the folks that work for uh, you know, the the management in a lot of these contractors, and and I've sat in a lot of meetings discussing just this, and nobody is talking about gender. Like they just want somebody that's gonna come to work and do the job. And so I I I think if women are gonna go down the path and say, I want to do the job, it's there for them. I don't think there's anybody really actively saying you don't belong here. That's been my more recent um experience is they just want quality people that can go out there and be consistent and do the job.

Dr. Susan Madsen 25:16

And and the research I would push back because of the research is that that bias is there for all of us, men and women. And so some of the of, of course, challenges, and we have to it there are challenges, right? That sexism and harassment, but not it's not just in in your industries, uh, Conchetta, it's in a lot, it's in technology and sometimes uh other even hospitals and healthcare, um that good old boys' club kind of thing, and and and some disrespect that people feel.

Concetta 25:51

And so I I think in terms of yeah, I don't by any means say that it's not out there. Yeah, I'm just saying that that we have a lot of really a lot of space and a lot of good employers that there's still that internal bias. And I see I think a lot of more of the what do they call it, the un uh subconscious bias, unconscious bias, unconscious biases more than the overt, you know, we're not doing this. Now, that's like I said, that's I think the majority, but I do think that the ones that are actively making the industry or our industry anyway, you know, try to bring in the philosophies of you don't belong here. I think that's not just women. I think that's okay, and and and I think that um there are far more people now standing up and going, what do you mean? Why doesn't she belong here? She's out here doing every bit of job you are. So we have more advocates out there as well, is what I've seen at being out there. I don't think it's gone away. Don't by any means think that, hey, we're gonna walk into this rosy career and everybody's gonna be happy that we're gonna be there and roll out the red carpet. I don't think that's necessarily the case.

Dr. Susan Madsen 26:58

But the intentionality, you mentioned that at the first. And I think the companies, more generally, I don't know your industry as well, that when they're intentional, and April, I'd love to hear your comments about this. The more the companies that are more intentional to do things to recruit and to retain even more women on posters and different kinds of things are are making some progress, I think, there. But there's some underlying elements, if you're not intentional, that may cause problems. Uh April, thoughts.

Dr. April Townsend 27:34

You know, in previous research that we've done, even just on women leadership, and I feel that this is gonna apply to what we're talking about today, it really is that when people see that upper leadership is supportive of initiatives, whatever it may be, but if it's we're really we want to be intentional about bringing more women and creating a more welcoming environment to not just recruit them, but to retain them. And when you have upper leadership saying this is a priority, this is important to us, then other people fall in line. And so I think it's incredibly important that industries, whether it be private or public, I mean, goodness, how many county and you know universities do we have out there with a lot of facilities where there are opportunities to hire women in, but you need well, let me just say it gives it a boost when you have upper leadership saying this is a priority for us.

Dr. Susan Madsen 28:25

I love that. Um we've got about five minutes left, and I want to make sure we talk on looking ahead. Um, but one more thing on some challenges that we note in this report is uh poor fitted PPE. So things are, and I it makes me think of the book Invisible Women. And I know April, it seems like you've read that book at least, but but if any listener has not read it, please read it because there are just kind of invisible things. Things are made for men, even what we wear are made for men, and they are not as safe if they're only made for men. Uh Conchetta, you were nodding and smiling a little bit.

Concetta 29:10

Yeah, and so so I have a Utah Women that trades, we have a pre-apprentceship program here called the Karen Main Pre-Apprenticeship Program, and it's open to everybody, but but we have a segment that we do where we just we talk specifically about PPE and how it's designed and what kind of things might affect uh, you know. One of the quotes in there is "women aren't just small men" um in in the design. And and they do that. We we touch on things like you know the Q angle, um, which they found uh in soccer when women's soccer, the knees blown out because of the Q angle and they couldn't condition the women's soccer players the same way as the men, but it was a really simple fix um for for them to overcome that. And when it comes to PPE, you know, harness fall protection, you know, gloves, like if you look at if you take two uh a woman and a man that are the same size in stature and look at their hands. Are their hands the same size? Typically not. So it's not and and we are, we're built just a little bit different. Um, so the problem is is when they first started, they started making almost like fashion construction clothes for women, right? So they were like substandard, they didn't quite meet the muster when it came to their durability or even the you know protection factor. Um, and then now we're starting to see a lot more options with that, and there's a lot of more uh uh manufacturers, but the price tags are higher.

Dr. Susan Madsen 30:35

Oh, interesting. That's wrong.

Concetta 30:39

Well, it's because it's because it's you know of the good old capitalism thing, right? You can't you can't invest so into something that there's got to be the demand, the supply and demand part, right?

Dr. Susan Madsen 30:49

Yes.

Concetta 30:50

So we get more women in there and then we'll have more of that stuff. But I am seeing a lot more work going into it um year over year, but we have to the employers have to engage and push for that. Because that's who they're that's who's purchasing a lot the PPE, right? They have to say, hey, we need this stuff for the manufacturers to start working on all of that. But there are, it's getting better and better. We have pockets now. Can you believe it?

Dr. Susan Madsen 31:15

I love it.

Concetta 31:16

They're still they're still like an inch shorter than men's pockets, but they're like four inches longer than women's pockets. It's great in the workwear.

Dr. Susan Madsen 31:24

So you can you can get more things in that.

Concetta 31:26

More than chapstick. Yeah.

Dr. Susan Madsen 31:28

There you go. Um, in in our section in this snapshot um on looking ahead, we really highlight three three elements of things that need to be done. One, Concetta, you've talked about this, we need to raise awareness. Two, ensure a safe workplace, and three, strengthening retention. April, which I mean, what what in that section did you find that could be most helpful as we move forward here in the state of Utah?

Dr. April Townsend 31:58

I actually think the raising awareness is the key thing. One of the things that we didn't have a chance to explore in depth was the um Utah um, well, let me see if I can remember. The Utah State Board of Education has a section called the Career and Techno-- Technical Education, CTE. And that's an opportunity to expose students to different careers. And right now, if you look at how many are involved in that, it's about 187,000 students. Only 3,500 are women looking at the construction area. And so I see that as a prime opportunity to have guidance counselors, have parents, uh, family members, uh, people that you know encourage young women and young girls to get involved in some of those classes and explore them. What a great safe place to try it out.

Dr. Susan Madsen 32:52

And I I honestly think I wish I would have been uh, you know, people had mentioned that to me. Um, even some of the shop, we called it shop in the day, I think, I think that would that has changed um because it was just what boys did. Girls didn't do that, and so I didn't explore. But even if that's not on our radar is something we want to major in college, I think just being in there, developing some skills can be helpful, raising kids. It can be helpful, um, you know, running a home. It could be helpful in other positions, even in teaching school, back to that one and other things. Um, so that raising awareness is key. What of those three, or are all three uh important, Concetta, in your in your book?

Concetta 33:41

I think we're awareness is definitely key. And I would say with that awareness, the visibility, right? So our tradeswomen that are out there already doing it, making sure that we're out there and we're visible and and that the women can see somebody that looks like them, because women come in all shapes and sizes and everything else. So just that visibility of the women the women that we have locally doing the project, uh doing the industry work um is is a great tool. But retention is going to be a big thing because retention, when we're talking about women, we're not talking about whether or not they stay in a career long term necessarily. It's what that first step to end up not being in the career, which usually comes with um starting families. So having some discussions about what that means. But if somebody goes through an apprenticeship, they have a credential. When it when it's in the construction industry, that stays with you. So it's really easy to step back into it when the time comes if you do a few things. But I think that retention, a lot of time looking at one, let's look at why why women are exiting. A lot of the that I see is is the family um part of it. Um, but some sometimes it's something else. But I think we can chip away at that retention, and then we're not constantly replacing the same amount of women, we're actually building on the numbers that we're bringing in.

Dr. Susan Madsen 34:55

Yeah, one quick quick question. In those areas, has the field or are the fields, there's many fields in in trades. Um are there some that you can do part-time, or is it pretty much at this point all or nothing? So if you step away, you can't. I I just think some of these things like welders, it seems like twice a week that would still be beneficial to have someone work twice a you know, two days a week.

Concetta 35:23

Yeah, the industry is not a part-time industry in that matter. And and that's for anybody, like it's not a part-time industry, but that that doesn't mean that there's some isn't some things that that you could do to still stay relevant in your career when you're going through those times. So I think, like, you know, we've had school teachers that work in the summertime. The the big key is making sure that you're staying relevant in your industry while you're doing all these things, and there's plenty of different things that you can do for that. But the other thing is to realize get through your apprenticeship. You've got to get through finish your apprenticeship, get your journey status in there, because that's gonna help you re-enter when the time comes, um and and keep your your your career um, I guess, fluent. And and so you'll always have it. Like you can't like I mean, I stepped away and owned a coffee shop for a little bit, right? And and but it wasn't bad to just step back in to be an electrician. I mean, yeah. So you just keep those skills sharp and and you can do it.

Dr. Susan Madsen 36:22

Thank you. April, final thoughts.

Dr. April Townsend 36:25

You know, I think as folks consider the skilled trades as a potential career, um, we're hearing a lot about AI and how AI may change the labor market. And I know that in our research, um, there are a number of folks who are turning more to the trades to say this is not a guarantee, but at least it's more AI resistant, that this is something that I can invest myself in and have a better long-term um opportunity. So I think that's something for folks to just be aware of.

Dr. Susan Madsen 36:54

Thank you. Conchetta, final words.

Concetta 36:57

Yeah, agreed. Um, so I think in I think it's still a really good industry. Um, I think anybody that wants to do it can do it. I think everybody raises, you know, has challenges when it comes to creating your life around a career. Um, so just know that that there's resources out there for you to to talk with people who can help you, you know, build whatever that life looks like for you and be successful in it. Um, there may be some things that you're gonna have as a short-term sacrifice, but you're gonna have a long-term gain. These careers, you know, well, oftentimes they're six figures uh with all the medical benefits and things like that that you need for your family. So don't discount them. Um and for every woman that wants to get started, I know a woman in the trade that you want to get started in. We'll connect you.

Dr. Susan Madsen 37:43

I love that. Conchetta and April, thank you so much for joining me today on this podcast episode hosted by the Utah Women and Leadership Project at Utah State University in partnership with Utah Public Radio and USU Extension. And thanks to Nick Poreth for his technical support. The Utah Women and Leadership Project's core mission is to strengthen the impact of Utah girls and women. To learn more about this topic, as well as other research and resources and events, you can visit us at utwomen.org. And to become engaged in UWLP's statewide initiative, A Bolder Way Forward, we invite you to visit a bolderwayforward.org. Thank you for listening in today.