Automotive Diagnostic Podcast
A space to explore the diagnostic & technology side of automotive repair. We discuss tools, techniques, & ideas to sharpen your skills. We'll also interview experts in the automotive field.
Automotive Diagnostic Podcast
Jake Barnes
Jake Barnes Joins me on the show this week! Jake is a mobile diagnostician and programmer and runs the Automotive diagnostic & programming YouTube channel. We're going to chat about the challenges of modern vehicle diagnostics and illustrate the importance of a process.
Jake's YouTube Channel- https://www.youtube.com/@autodiagprogramming
Website- https://autodiagpodcast.com
Facebook Group- https://www.facebook.com/groups/223994012068320
Email- STmobilediag@gmail.com
Welcome to the Automotive Diagnostic Podcast. We're going to explore ways to sharpen our diagnostic skills, find learning resources and hear from experts in the automotive field. I am happy to have Automotive Seminars as a sponsor for the show. If you're not familiar, automotive Seminars is a diagnostic technician training company. They've got a website that they'll be linked to in the show notes. What they offer is top notch training to technicians like us in the field. I've been taking their training courses for years and have got a ton of benefit out of it. They've got top notch instructors John Thornton, scott Shotten, scott Manna and every other month they've got a two night course that you can sign up for, join in, ask questions and afterwards you've paid for the course. You can access a recorded version whenever you want. You can rewatch the class two years later in case you wanted some details on it, and that is a fantastic feature. So make sure to check out the website to see what courses they have available and what's coming up in the future.
Speaker 2:This podcast is brought to you by Jarhead Diagnostics. Jarhead Diagnostics manufactures in-house diagnostic equipment and storage solutions, as well as distributes for companies like Pico, ats and Topdon One of my favorite tools that I have bought from Brandon and Jarhead Diag is the case for the Uscope. If you don't have a Uscope, you probably should, but if you have one, you've got to get. One of these 3D printed cases has a magnet on it, has a full size BNC lead that you can connect to and it gets rid of the weak point of that scope, which is the mini BNC connection, which is pretty fragile. This case makes this thing nice and secure and makes it even better tool than it was. So check out jarheaddiagcom. The link is in the show notes.
Speaker 2:Hey, what's going on? Automotive World. Welcome to another episode of the Automotive Diagnostic Podcast. My name is Sean Tipping. I'll be your host once again for this week's episode. Thank you for joining me This week on the show.
Speaker 2:I have got Jake Barnes joining me. Jake runs a mobile diagnostic and programming company in Alabama. He is also the host of Automotive Diagnostics and Programming YouTube channel, so make sure to check that out. There'll be a link in the show notes. He's joining me to talk about diagnostics on vehicles And we've had a couple recently that we've been chatting back and forth about, and really a lot of this talk is just going over some of the challenges and struggles that we run into with diagnostics on modern vehicles and some of the challenges that we personally have getting through some of these, one of them being remembering all the different things that you probably should do within your process to actually do them.
Speaker 2:And hey, we're all human and sometimes we forget certain steps, we skip over things, we miss things for whatever reason Again, we're human, it happens And just sort of sharing our experiences there and talking about some broken vehicles. So I enjoyed this talk with Jake. Hopefully you will as well. With that out of the way, we'll jump right in. All right, good evening, jake. How are you doing tonight?
Speaker 1:Good, it's been a little hot, but yeah, getting adapted to it maybe.
Speaker 2:Where are you at now?
Speaker 1:Northern Alabama.
Speaker 2:Okay, okay, i suppose it's warm down there this time of year.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i think it was around 88 today, which doesn't sound terrible until you factor in the humidity. I think it was like 79% humidity or something like that.
Speaker 2:Oh gross, yeah, Yeah. Last week up here it was just the heat finally broke. On Monday We had a bunch of storms move through, but all last week it was low to mid 90s And, like you say, i guess it's all relative. So people down in Florida are like that's nothing but with the humidity. And then you know I'm doing the mobile stuff out in cars and stuff like that And man, it is just gross. I was so gross, i sweat, sweated so much last week It was disgusting. I think like as soon as I come home I got to get in that shower.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Yeah, Same. I mean I was pretty bad today. I quit early. I came home at like four o'clock. I just want to strike this shower. Jumped in the shower.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's like being a full-time tech again, and that was definitely the thing when I was, you know, full-time tech, because I'm just, even though I wash my hands and stuff, you're still like you're so gross. You got you know bits of dirt and stuff in your hair and everything, so you got to go right in the shower, but I stayed relatively clean doing the mobile thing. But when it's like that, yeah, You got to jump in there as soon as you get home.
Speaker 1:Yeah, usually I don't get too dirty, i just get sweaty Yeah.
Speaker 2:Try not to get it on the laptops and the scan tools. Yeah, once it starts dripping on the auto, like, okay, i bought me and my employee these big Milwaukee fans that run off the 18-volt batteries. So if we're in a car, you know, and I asked the shops, hey, can you get these inside? Like nowhere around here has AC. Like maybe maybe one or two shops up here has AC, because it just doesn't make sense for the three months of summer that we have. But I do ask shops to get the cars inside And sometimes they can't for various reasons. You know Shops busy with work and our schedule, you know, is kind of fluid as far as when we're going to get there, or it's buried out in the back of the lot, so in variable, some of them are outside and it's a million degrees. So, man, having that little fan sitting in the passenger seat next to you, that's where it's at for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i think I probably need to get me one of those, because I'm kind of opposite. I'm like leave it outside, leave it away, i'll just go do my own thing.
Speaker 2:Yes, And I 100% understand that because, depending on where I'm going, i'd rather not have, you know, people standing over my shoulder, you know, for various reasons. If they want to see what I'm doing, okay cool. But sometimes it's just they won't stop talking And I'm like, hey man, i got to read this. Make sure I don't break this module. Give me just a second here, yeah.
Speaker 1:I get the same thing. People just want to talk. I mean I'm fine with it, It's like let me get down with the car first.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Well, especially if I'm diagnosing something, then I definitely want to be just kind of in the zone, left alone, and so, yeah, if it's away from the busyness of the shop, i'm I'm A-okay with that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, oh, tell me about your, your job. I guess I'm not even super familiar with what your operation is.
Speaker 1:I'm pretty much the same thing you do just mobile diagnostics and programming stuff. I do a lot more diag work than I do programming work, because it just kind of works out that way. I find a lot more issues, like they generally call me in before they throw a module at it. They've kind of actually gotten to the point where they'll call me first, so I usually just diag stuff. I'd say I'm about 70% diag, 20% programming, maybe like five to 10% repair stuff.
Speaker 1:But, my repairs are wire repairs, sensor replacements, like if I'm already there, whatever things like that Sure. But yeah, mostly just heavy diag stuff really.
Speaker 2:And how'd you get into that?
Speaker 1:Pretty much just. Oh man, i kind of started doing diag. That's what I kind of got in for Because my background I actually for most of my life installed car stereos And you really wouldn't believe how many people bring cars into a stereo shop for electrical diag stuff.
Speaker 2:Really, i didn't know that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, mainly parasitic drains or random weird things not working things like that. So I kind of got kind of really good of electrical basis just off of that. But I mean I also went to school for electrical stuff and whatnot So I've always liked doing electrical work. So about almost six years ago now, a buddy of mine that was in a dealership and he's like hey, man, you should just come work with me And we had lots of electrical problems. So that's how I kind of got into actually mechanicking, working on cars, whatever.
Speaker 2:Okay. So, What kind of dealer was that?
Speaker 1:GM dealer. Oh okay, Chevrolet.
Speaker 2:Gotcha, gotcha, okay, and then you just transitioned to doing your own thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I did dealership work for about four years I think, And I got out of it, went to an independent shop, mainly just because I guess for the most part I just got tired of the dealer grind Like pretty much everybody else at least dealerships. They get tired of the dealer grind the warranty like times like getting cut and all that stuff. I mean, like you'd be astonished at just how many like my car count for a pay period, Like, and it's just ridiculous, Like there was one week where I did is a brand new recall where GM was reprogramming brake modules and oh man, I did all of them And then it was like a week later they changed the recall and I had to do all those cars again. So it was kind of ridiculous. And like, anytime GM gives you a recall for a reflash, you get three tents.
Speaker 1:Well there was one week I had, if I remember right, 109 of those that I'd done. So, and like the bad thing is is like GM back then was making you run clock time on that, So I would literally have to run three tents, three tents, three tents. So I get a stack of my tickets and I would start one, go get it, bring it in. You know, do it, sit there and wait until my time was done, Close the ticket, start the next one, go get that one and just just cycle through it.
Speaker 2:So wait, so you couldn't move on to the next one until an actual physical three tents has passed. Is that my understanding that, right, but no, saura was talking there and gave that up. So you know the services. So that's that. They both had a plan level as an answer to 10łemida, persistent plans adding two.
Speaker 1:Pretty much yes, because if they ever audited the ticket and seeing that the programming event happened outside of your clock time, because there's also the the warranty screen, you know, you're familiar with that. Yeah so we actually have to screenshot that and Send that in with our oh. So if my clock time was outside of the ticket, They could actually kick it back.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:I mean it's ridiculous.
Speaker 2:Oh man.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, i got pretty tired of that and Went to an independent shop and I was there for Pretty much two years. I took last summer off and went to Colorado for two months and While I was going the shop just had to shut down. So whenever I come back I was like, well, good time for me to just thing go mobile.
Speaker 2:They give you any warning like or two toolbox just sitting outside when you got back.
Speaker 1:Well, before I left, i Just gotten all my stuff anyway, just to keep it out of the way, keep it secure, you know, because we were actually having some issues with the shop getting broke into so just as kind of like Keeping my stuff secure.
Speaker 1:I just took it all home because I knew I was gonna be gone for the whole two months, so wasn't that big of a deal. Take all my stuff and you know. But yeah, about Mmm, three weeks before I come back They called me and told me they were just gonna close the doors and it's like okay, So then you jumped on the mobile thing yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah right, there's some times you need that little bit of a nudge.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i mean there's other things going on too. Like while I was in Colorado I actually tore my shoulder up mountain back, and so When I come back, i was. I was in a sling anyway, so I couldn't wrench, even if I wanted to. Yeah, i could still move around a car. I could move more of a little bit So. So I was like, well, i can check cars, i'm figure out what's wrong with them. Nobody else can fix them.
Speaker 2:So yeah, yeah, that's. That's awesome. When you were at the GM dealer I don't know the time frame was it still SPS one, or had they transitioned to TLC while you were still there?
Speaker 1:It was About that same time TLC had come out and been out for about a year, but SPS on Tista web was still available. Oh, Oh we could still use it and then Kind of like tours right at the end of my stay at the dealers when they forced you into using TLC, the program. Okay and it was a nightmare.
Speaker 2:Well, that's what I was thinking when you said you did a hundred plus Programming events. I'm like, oh my gosh, that's with TLC. That would just be the worst. Yeah, how many times would you ever to restart the stupid program if you did a hundred programming events?
Speaker 1:Well, I mean that's, that's a crazy thing. It is like back then it was actually a lot more stable. I don't know what they did to it. But like when they shut down SPS one, like it went to crap, like yeah.
Speaker 2:There's been stable versions of it where and I mean, hey, when it works, it's a great software and it works awesome. And there's been sections of time where you don't even think about it and GM just works. But then it's like every other week There's some you know colossal failure of whatever's going on on there and and You know how often it crashes. Or I mean there's been all kinds of different problems too Where it's like you don't know what portion of the, the programming events or the software launch is gonna be your issue that Monday. I mean they updated every single Monday, it seems, and that's when there's issues like it just don't, it's that week of the month.
Speaker 2:It's just gonna be a pain in the ass this week to do any GM. So hey, there was a time where You know I could budget the time for GM and say, yeah, i can be in and out of the shop in a half hour For sure, because it's a GM and I know how it's gonna go. But now I, like you, still could be if everything goes right. But I give me and my guy a little bit more time on GM's Because you don't know how it's gonna go today. It might go good, it might not.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i've gotten to where, like I will start it before I even leave, even like boot up.
Speaker 2:I do that. I saw I'll start it up on my laptop Monday morning Just to like have it go through its updates and then, yeah, maybe just like let it run on the passenger seat while I'm driving to that first job. Actually, my employee is doing the majority of GM programming for me, so I get to hear a lot of the issues secondhand now instead of restarting it myself you know 50 times. But Yeah, it's so that the dealer, you guys, were, at least for some of it, experiencing the same thing. I mean the dealer side of it. They're seeing the same thing that we are in the aftermarket right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, i mean the. they're actually even Moving TLC from being able to open on the desktop to web-based for the dealer text as well.
Speaker 2:Okay, okay, so yeah, exactly the same.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's pretty much the same.
Speaker 2:Huh.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's the fun of it, though I mean I Look at it both ways, right, like some days It's a huge pain in the ass. But those hurdles, i Know, are what is preventing more people from doing it right for the shops from doing it themselves, because they hop on there one Monday It's got to do 20 different updates to their computer and then nothing works and they're frustrated. So they're just gonna call you know mobile guy to say, hey, come in, just take care of this. I don't want to deal with this frustration and, understandably so, i don't want to be.
Speaker 2:If you know, if I'm trying to rock out a bunch of actual cars that need to be fixed, i don't want to be standing over my laptops restarting TLC for two hours. You know like that's in a shop scenario. As a tech, i'd be, i'd be pissed if I had to do that. So I get it and I think it's a win-win for everybody. But I don't know, i guess in that side of things It's like if there's some hurdles and there's some obstacles to some of this stuff, i'm like, okay, that's cool. Well, i'll take it and make it a little bit harder for, you know, everybody to do that same thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, i don't mind it, i'm used to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you have to expect it. You have to expect it. I don't think there's a week where everything works smoothly. Just software wise, right, not even including diagnostics, but just software wise. You can guarantee something is going to give you trouble, and if you just accept that as a fact and try to deal with it the best that you can, then It's not that big of a deal and you get better at At getting around obstacles to the more that you see them right, like you know.
Speaker 2:Okay, hey, this program is not working correctly, let's uninstall and reinstall, or maybe in another situation. Well, let's hold off on that Because that's time consuming. Let's try this instead. And you start to kind of Feel your way around the problems and having some people to reach out to is always good too like, hey, are you having the same problem, or is this just me? and if You know five of your friends, everything's working great on their end and you're having problems. Okay, maybe it's my laptop, let's try a different laptop here. And so you can kind of get a feel for where some of these especially the web based systems like TLC or app by that. But then, yeah, then there's dyke, which Who knows what's. What's gonna come at you each day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i ever went around in circles today with a Mercedes and, and Sometimes it's just the simplest things that you find.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what I had? a Mercedes, it was a sprinter. But what was yours today?
Speaker 1:2010 E 350. Okay, e class And uh, it would crank and run, but it wouldn't go and drop, it's just stuck in park.
Speaker 2:Like it wouldn't like, the shifter would not move.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's the little electric shifter on the steering column. The little button and a little lever.
Speaker 2:So like you could move it but it wouldn't do anything. Was that after repair or just happened?
Speaker 1:I think it just I don't, i don't really know. I mean, i don't want to give away too much of it because there'll be a video on it, i think.
Speaker 2:I'll okay.
Speaker 1:I think it's gonna make a pretty good video.
Speaker 2:But yeah, okay, cool, yeah, mine. Uh, there's a 14 sprinter And actually I got back tomorrow because I did not resolve this one today. I kind of just ran out of my hour block of time but had a electrical code for the compressor and There's not a whole lot of info on what's good and what's supposed to be there, but everything seemed to be there as far as I could tell, um, but I didn't quite have all the ammo I needed to To call a compressor or modules kind of where I was down to. But I was like I'm gonna do a little bit more reading before I make a call on this one.
Speaker 2:So Yeah, i've not even had to work on a sprinter yet, so Yeah, you should probably keep it that way that I I don't enjoy them at all. Um, you know it's it's info for the most part and you know maybe I should, you know, find a way to get that factory information for the sprinter stuff. But I just don't do enough of them to really Worry about it And so then when I get one I'm kind of in the dark on a lot of stuff. But I was using the eye scan and that was good for At least you know the vehicle scan and data and getting codes and stuff like that. So that's a lot of stuff I had good, um, you know the info and the modules and the codes and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:But uh, as far as finding what's good and What is the computer upset about, because the circuits were all good, from the control head down to the compressor. Anyway, it has a, so it's got a variable solenoid And it's got a magnetic clutch assembly. But it was a weird clutch because it has, like I think it's in this metal housing that goes over the front of the pulley, like it had. I first I thought it was a clutchless one, but the diagram says clutch and the diagram Um shows this wire that goes behind there, so like it's got an encased clutch or something, i mean whatever. That doesn't change it that much for me electrically, but I can't see the thing.
Speaker 2:And uh, everything on the compressor seemed To be working right and the circuits tested okay from point a to point b and it still. It just would repeatedly set this compressor circuit code and And so kind of kind of lean towards module. But I don't know. You tell me, do you ever have it where you just have that feeling or like That's, that's not it, like I don't have a reason, but my gut is telling me that that is not going to fix this car and I kind of kind of had that today.
Speaker 1:So I mean I get that all the time and then usually I'll do it, and then I was like I don't know I missed something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, oh, i've done that. I've made the call where I have that feeling and I'm ignoring it because I'm busy, or I'm just like, yeah, okay, let's get it, let's get a part for this thing and try to move on and see what happens. Um, but yeah, you know, i would say, the majority of the time that feeling is right, so I just got to listen to it.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah. I agree, most of the time it is, but every now and then you just got to. Oh man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i got to do it again. Yeah, sometimes stuff doesn't make sense, or yeah, you missed something or whatever. Um, do you do mostly electrical diag or do you do everything like Mechanical engine, that sort of stuff?
Speaker 1:I will do pretty much anything. But yeah, the majority of calls I guess either electrical issues or Some drivability. I don't get too much into transmission stuff. I do get them every now and then. Usually when I get a transmission call, this external module and only a valve body in the car or in the transmission. So mm-hmm. They just kind of want me to verify electrical before they pull the trans and swap it or whatever.
Speaker 2:So sure, yeah, i have a lot of trans shops. That It's. It's tough with diag, with Transmission shops, and I tell them, like you guys know the internals of these things way better than I ever will.
Speaker 2:Yeah so if you're calling me in to diagnose what's happening on The inside of the transmission minus a module, minus solenoids, okay I can deal with that. But for the mechanical the clutches and the fluid and the gears and stuff like you guys are the pros here And I think sometimes they just want me, they want it to be a software issue, because maybe they rebuilt it already or replaced it already And they want it to be fixed with just a software update. And I mean occasionally That's the case, but I would say it's more often With you know what I mean, that situation. I'm like sorry man, you got to go back into this thing. Something you know, something's not right and Software ain't gonna fix that.
Speaker 1:So Yeah, like the other day I had somebody asked me about I think it was a 14 model Mustang. Okay four cylinder, okay, automatic, and they said that If you just put it in a drive it won't move. But if you get it rolling it'll take gear and go and then it'll be fine. The rest, until you stop again, i'm like well, put a transmission in it.
Speaker 1:You know you don't think it's something electrical. I'm like, no, that's somebody probably it was neutral dropping this poor four cylinder, busted the sprag out in it or whatever, the one-way clutch, whatever you want to call it. It's like, yeah, put a transmission in it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i had Truck that was slipping in a couple gears and gear ratio codes and everything and they're like Do you think you could go in there and just like up the line pressure on those two gears? Look, come on, dude, that's not the way this works. No, the the Ford 10 speeds right now. I mean there's a lot of bad transmissions out there. I see a lot, but those 10 speeds in the Fords have been very, very problematic for Transmission shops. I don't know if you've seen those.
Speaker 1:No, and I had to run into those just the eight speeds.
Speaker 2:Yeah, on the 10 speeds and Going newer, like I don't know the age range, but the ones I'm seeing are like 18 right around there. It has an external TCM and the TCM is separate from the ECM, right. So it's got its own module. But the module is not Updatable through Ford software, right. So normally you'd go in with IDS, you'd see The Reprogram. Your TCM is even on that list.
Speaker 2:And so shops will call me like hey, this thing shifting all weird this and that, can you check it for an update? and I've, you know I Went to the first few of them like other. There's no update period, like you can't even update this module. And then There's a a drive cycle process for these things, but it's It's like an hour plus of driving if you do it all 100%. And You know a couple shops are asking me if I would go do that. I'm like I, i don't have time to go drive this vehicle around. I don't really want to either. Like that's not what I want to do with my day. But I'm like you guys, you, here's the process. You guys can go drive this thing around, and some have. But even after It sounds like these things are just just a wreck and even after they're rebuilt, or Ford has a lot of valve bodies getting slapped on these things, or that's what their TSP recommends, and then It doesn't fix them and they end up needing a trans. So I don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, kind of getting rid of those transmissions nowadays.
Speaker 1:Yeah right back when I was in the dealer, we was just getting a lot, some of the 10 speeds and, of course, the eight speeds and And you'd get one in people be complaining about how it's shifting. And I go drive it and like, mike, that's fine, there's nothing wrong with it. And then they're like no, no, if you drive it like this, it'll do it like this. I'm like I mean, it's probably learned behavior. So then my service manager. He's like well, just relearn the clutches. I'm like man, come on, i gotta go drive it forever to relearn these clutches. It's just, it was aggravating.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's on the eight speeds in the trucks. Yeah, those things have quite the the teach-in process on those two.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah they've got they. They do it in two ways. You can do the like in the bay one where you just kind of torque break it and let it do this thing. And then they got another one where, like you can in GDS, you can program individual clutch packs and Just it's aggravating.
Speaker 2:Yeah, as I, like you say, it's getting a little excessive. Like how many? how many speeds do you need in these things?
Speaker 1:I mean anything for two percent better fuel economy. Right, That's where it's at.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's. That's what's driving it 100%. Well, what's what other interesting vehicles you've been working on lately?
Speaker 1:Just that Jeep that I called you, or had you call me about that. I'm around and around with. I made three trips to see that Jeep and Man oh man.
Speaker 2:What? what year is that one? 2018 okay, I think.
Speaker 1:I think that's the first year of the gen two pinnastar.
Speaker 2:I think yeah, you could be right. I I don't know that for sure, but I know it's fairly new.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. And When I was first looking at it, I thought man, this, this way, this is acting the same, similar to something I've heard, but that's why we reached out to you. But no, not the same issue. So It uh, you want me to talk about it?
Speaker 2:might as well Yeah okay.
Speaker 1:So the initial call was hey, this thing's misfire randomly on all cylinders and We had just took the head off and had the head redone for low compression on two of these cylinders. I think I don't have their notes with me, but I think their notes said Three and five was the ones that were low compression compared to everything else. I think it was like one of them was 60 and one of them was 80 pounds and that's just mechanical, gauged, whatever.
Speaker 1:So they pulled the heads in and off. I have no idea what the machine chop said about it or what they done. They sent it back, they slapped it back together and they called me and said it's doing exactly the same thing that it was before. So I Generally have a pretty good process whenever I'm I'm approaching something like this where somebody's taking a part motor and Together I will go through and clear it all. The adapts, redo cam crank, learns, anything I can clear to reset usually do it, and With this one I guess I was just in a hurry and I did relearn cam crank.
Speaker 1:I Know that. But whenever I was going through everything, the first time I looked at it was pretty steady, miss on Bank one. But it would be to the point where it was shut off either five or three And it just depended on when I shut it off, crank it back up, it'd just be five or three and That's pretty much where the misfires were staying at. So I was like, well, this seems like kind of pre-isolated to these two and Fuel trims actually looked fine. Long terms and short terms I think in. The long terms were like native one or two and short terms were like just Point one or two, like very low, very long trims.
Speaker 1:So I I Guess I didn't really pay much attention to the oxygen sensor, other than I seen That my oxygen sensor was functioning and then, once it would turn one of the cylinders off, my oxygen sensor would flat line out at zero volts. Okay, full, lean, which would make sense. It cuts fuel off that cylinder, still pumping fresh air out into the exhaust.
Speaker 1:So I was like well, once it turns that off, i can't really use O2 at all anymore right so I kind of just like start off with the general relative compression and it was Perfectly even across the board. I got done several times thinking like maybe you know, once it gets old pressure, maybe this is gonna change. So I just, i would let it just whine and whine and whine until it shut off now, it start back again immediately and it would just keep going as it just stayed.
Speaker 2:Very insistent, those things would go for a while. If you do that, the clear flood just sit there and crack.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they will go for a while So. So I kind of ruled out old pressure causing this thing to do it, you know, because it's got the variable lift on the valves. So I was like, well, if I'm losing old pressure or if I'm getting old pressure somewhere shouldn't be, you know, whatever, maybe I'll see it nothing. So Then I was like, well, you know, maybe What my issue is is Still something a lot compression, but maybe I'm just equal across the board. So then that's when I reached out to you about years Where you had the worn cam lobes, just to try to get some more information, and you'd give me that I did use pulse sensor.
Speaker 1:So Second trip out there, use pulse sensor Didn't really come up with nothing. Still, i messed with it for just a little bit that day. Didn't come up with a whole lot of it, of anything. So I was like, well, i'm just gonna go home, clear my head on it, come back. So I did that and When I got back, started, just, i actually had another 18 Jeep just like that in my shop. So I got some cam crank non goods on it to compare.
Speaker 1:Okay just to rule out cam crank and also to rule out a Cam signal issue like maybe a missing tooth or something like that, something strange, you know sure so went back with my known good, compared it to this broken Jeep and Everything was perfect, exactly. I think my cams was maybe not even half a degree off from my known good, so That's pretty close Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah and Cuz. That man was going on with this thing. So back to live data just watching things. And That's when I noticed that my O2s when I would first crank it, they would stay rich. Every now and then they would fall a little below 800 millivolts, but for the most part they were staying between 800 and 900 millivolts. So that's pretty much stuck rich Until it would shut off the injector and then of course, it would Was that turn closed loop operation? we saw it that high it was actually an open loop.
Speaker 1:And as soon as it went closed loop it would shut that injector off and then Deep all back into open loop. So it's as soon as it would try to go closed loop, it would shut off an injector and then it's back into open loop because of a fault.
Speaker 2:And so it's got the check-in to late flashing that whole time. That'll be okay.
Speaker 1:Okay, as soon as you crank it, check engine I would be flashing and it would be counting on. Some cylinder, and that's another thing is like sometimes it would only be like five, and then sometimes it only be three, and then sometimes it would be one, three and five, and then sometimes it would be one, two, three, four, five. Crazy thing is is it would never count six. Never, i never seen it count a misfire on six. That's strange.
Speaker 2:It's so goofy.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So it was almost like every time I went to look at it The way the misfires would be doing would be different. Like the first day I looked at it It was always missing on three and five. The second day I looked at it it was one, three and five, and then the third day it even shut off cylinder two a couple times. So I'm like this thing's just kind of all over the place. So once I kind of seen that it was stuck rich, but yet my fuel trims, my long-term short-terms, were perfectly fine. Well, they were perfectly fine because they it would never try to adjust, because as soon as I try to go closed loop, it just deep back into open so right
Speaker 1:trims never adjusted. So I'm like thinking what in the world would cause this thing to actually be rich? But yet my fuel trims seem fine and but like yeah. So I was like, did I ever Just clear all the adapts on this thing? I was thinking. I was like I know I did the cam and crank, but did I go through and clear the memory on everything else and Sounds like? well, i don't know, let's try. And so I went through and did it and The Jeep ran perfectly fine. So I'm assuming I'm pretty sure the alcohol content got skewed somehow and And it was thinking it had probably 85 in it.
Speaker 1:So it's actually fueling for E85, but yet, scott Regular, 87 or whatever in it. Okay, Okay and it's actually running rich, and so I had a rich misfire.
Speaker 2:Gotcha Do they? do they provide a Data pit on Chrysler for those I don't even know?
Speaker 1:I don't, I don't know. I feel like I've seen it in in White tech okay but on the snap on. I don't remember seeing it. But, I've got this other Jeep that's at my shop, Steel, and whenever I get time I'm actually gonna look through it and see if I can find an alcohol content pit for it. But It's when I was working on that Jeep. I never run across it, I never noticed it, and usually I kind of will notice things like that.
Speaker 2:But Yeah, you do like your initial scan of the data, kind of scroll through the, the big players and stuff, but yeah, just looking for anything that's like out of place.
Speaker 1:You know just yeah crazy number, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i mess stuff like that all the time too And I mean I Have a handful of them Where it was just a fuel trim reset needed to be done and I fought it for an extended period of time. I did on a Yukon one time which, like GM trucks, were kind of my bread and butter or as much as they could be. Being in the independent world. I thought it was pretty good at them and this thing just kicked my ass and it just needed an actual fuel trim reset with the scan tool. After I did fix it and For whatever reason, that year I don't, i don't recall what year it is But it just hung on to those long-term fuel trims.
Speaker 2:Now There's other, like fords I traditionally thought would kind of hang on to that long term, for a longer period of time than other vehicles, but I wasn't used to it with GM. Well, that one did it and that one needed to reset. And, yeah, sometimes just just slips your mind to do the easy stuff And you dig into all the other craziness and pulse sensors and relative compression, oh man.
Speaker 1:So much time and it's like this is something I normally just do out of habits. Like how do they even not do this cuz? like I say I'm pretty good about it? Like they tell me they've been in a motor, i go in there, i clear everything, i try to make that computer start from scratch. Yeah, there's no tell what was wrong with it when they started and no tell what they broke when they were in it. So I try to just start from scratch.
Speaker 1:Yeah this one. I just I don't. I guess maybe I was just in a hurry, you trying, you know, get in and out or what I don't know, but somehow I missed it.
Speaker 2:So it's so easy to do. We got so much going on and trying to keep track of so many different things, it is easy to skip over. I know I've talked with a few other people on here about like processes and sticking to your process and, yeah, i do the best I can. But I don't have like a Highlighted list in front of me or anything like that for this stuff. I'm just it's all kind of up here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I need to print off a checklist and start checking this off.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, i mean, it wouldn't be a bad idea, you know, to have it in your phone, at least of just I actually. So I have the notes app. I got an iPhone and I have a notes that said things you didn't think of and I'll put stuff in there. Like you know, updating software or Yeah, maybe like a you know Cam reset on a module or whatever, and just like stuff like okay, let's try this if you're on a roadblock, or like a capacitive discharge is one thing. If you have, it seems to be with, like infotainment systems, a lot where stuff just doesn't work Do that capacitive discharge and then see what happens. And so, like I have that on that list, i'll check that sometimes and be like what am I not thinking about? and it doesn't always come through, but I add as I go to it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm definitely to start doing that.
Speaker 2:Yeah well, alcohol reset. That's going on there for me now, so I.
Speaker 1:Mean on that cheap. There is no like dedicated alcohol reset. I just went through on the scan tools, memory Resets and I just do got all adaptations and yep, Yeah it's everything else So.
Speaker 2:What is it? the BMWs I've been through a couple of the older ones where it'll actually put it into like a limp mode, until and set codes until you clear these adapters After I think it's after a timing repair on those things. But if you don't do that, it's still like setting codes. You think the car is still broken until you do that stuff. That's crazy. What some of that Yeah, just refreshing the software is gonna do, trying to think I had another one Where that was the case, where I it was just a matter of actually doing or performing the reset on it, and You know that took care of my, the whole issue.
Speaker 1:I see it all the time because I got these shops that will just throw a used motor in. Something you know And it's quite often they'll throw one in, like they'll call me is like hey, this thing still has a misfire. Strangely enough, it's still on the same cylinder, whatever you know, And I'll go and I will do my recess, my cam cranks and hey, problem solved. Yeah, put a motor in. You didn't relearn the cam and crank correlation, so uh-huh. Yeah, i Fixed several misfire complaints with a cam crank at the relearn.
Speaker 2:Yep, that was the one it was actually. It was an older Buick with a 3-8 and it was just counting up misfires like crazy And I don't even think they did any major repair to it. It just came in that way for one way or another and that was fixed. Crank chef, relearn How you done. You know, um, that's while. I remember the Chevy trucks would do that a lot too. They'd count like like four cylinders and you drive it on the road and the check engine lights flash in and that Engines just running smooth the silk. But if you look at the scan data as four cylinders and missing and everything, and That was the cam re-earn as well. You know what's interesting is the injector shutdown strategy on the jeeps. You know specifically the ones that we were dealing with in comparison to some other vehicles like I'm thinking of the early 2000 Silverado's that would do that with a crankshaft, those things. I don't think they'd ever shut down an injector.
Speaker 1:But now wow, but yeah, it's taking a long time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like gotta be, it's gotta be really serious on one cylinder for it to do it. And these Chrysler setups at least the one that I've dealt with and I know the one that you've dealt with it They seem to be like Like a little overly zealous about all right, let's shut that thing off. It might be missing just a little bit. Turn it off.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cuz with that Jeep, like, even though it's counting misfires, it's here idling just Fine. I wouldn't say it's like the smoothest idle ever, but it definitely wasn't like a misfire idle. Yeah and I actually, when I had my Crank shaft hooked up to my Pico, i'd actually done the Frequency math channel and stuff.
Speaker 1:I'm sitting in there watching it and I'm like, um, all of these, you know Peaks are about the same, like there's not really much change. I was like I could see a little bit here and here where it's a little bit lower than these, but For the most part they're all the same. And then it'll shut one of the cylinders off and then it's like Big drop in the frequency right there and then it's like well, what are you fussing about like?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was yeah, oh man.
Speaker 2:And that yeah, that's an interesting thing too is all of these cars are, You know, the end goals the same, but the strategy is are gonna be a little bit different from one vehicle to another, to another. And so, like you don't know, you know how much pull a specific sensor input has on something In comparison to another vehicle. You know from even just front o2s, as simple as that. There's some vehicles where you got an o2 that's skewed. Okay, maybe you're running a little rich, a little lean, but as the driver of the vehicle You can't really tell that much, maybe if you're watching your fuel mileage. But there are some where that thing gets skewed. You know the sensors skewed in the same way, but the engine will barely run. And I get it's a major player in the field delivery. But it's just interesting to see the difference Between you know, one vehicle to the next and I think it really comes onto the computer strategy and what weight It's placing on all these different things. But I don't know.
Speaker 2:I don't write software for engines, so I got to imagine it's a it's quite the challenging task to Interweave all these different sensors and dynamic things that are happening in an engine. And then you're adding VVT and variable valve lift and trying to figure out all that stuff at the same time. I'm sure it's quite the quite the endeavor for the engineers.
Speaker 1:It is. And then that Jeep is also doing some weird strategy where, like it shuts that injector off, i say it shuts off number five. Okay, if you just let it sit there and run, it will. Eventually it would turn that injector back on, really Turn a different one back off. So it would like turn five on and then a couple seconds later It'll turn three off weird, i mean when I when I was chasing that.
Speaker 2:Jeep that I had the podcast on That specific part of it, the injector killing strategy, is what had the technician at that shop the most hung up? Because he saw very similar to what you're talking about. He's like it's just killing random injectors and it doesn't seem to have a reason. They thought it was. Actually I did program a computer on it and that was part of the reason why They condemned a computer on it, because they're like this thing is just active, like this thing is just acting strange. But I don't know, it seems to be. That's just how they're set up, at least at this point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i mean this thing was acting so crazy I was I was pretty close to the point of saying, hey, we need to put a computer in this thing.
Speaker 2:Ironically, that would have fixed it. It would have fixed it, but yeah, it would have fixed it for the wrong reason, Uh-huh.
Speaker 1:But the bad thing is is I would have never known I wouldn't have oh, i guarantee I got some of those out there.
Speaker 2:I guarantee, especially when I was tech. You know it's like okay, we're gonna do this part, and then all this will get moved around and that ground straff gets, you know, unbolted and bolted back on. Hey, that fuel pump fixed it. All right, cool, um yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i'm sure, i'm sure I've probably got a few. I mean, it happens.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i suppose that's the thing is. Uh, you're putting a whole new computer in it and and you're doing all the relearns and everything, and so It would definitely get rid of Any software issues, any relearn issues, anything like that it's going to be take care of at the same time, or she's like yep, all right. Well, next one of these. I see he's getting a computer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it could definitely make you, uh, do that And be wrong.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so from now on definitely got to try to remember to do the resets.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's just, man. There's so much stuff to Try to remember as we're going through this. I'm sure you know that doing dyag stuff It's like um I. I think stepping away from them At some points is the best thing to do, um, because you're overwhelmed in the moment and you can't. You know you exhausted your abilities in that moment there And so you're gonna like I gotta make a call because I gotta move on. I gotta get to the next thing. They need the answer, whatever. But man, stepping away and thinking about it like you did, that's that's huge and I mean It's a good thing that at least we have that ability.
Speaker 2:You know, doing mobile stuff, like I can't tell the shop like hey, sorry, i'm gonna come back later. They don't always like to hear that Um. But it's tough when you're tech right, especially if you're on flat rate and they're Just hounding you for an answer like the service writer doesn't really care. They want something to sell. So Okay, well, you don't have an answer. But what do you think it is? I remember I got that a lot of firestone. What do you? what do you think it? it might be Like well, whatever I tell you you're gonna go sell them, i'm gonna put it on there and I'll be on the hook when it's come back.
Speaker 1:So yeah, and look, i'm kind of lucky at where I'd say in 90 percent of what I work on Is owned by a car dealer, like a used car dealer.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, they're just in a shop or whatever, or even sometimes it's their own mechanic shop that call me or whatever. So a lot of times if I don't have an answer Right, then it's not that big of a deal to them if the car sits for a while Like I've actually got a. Uh, oh man, why. I don't know if I'm gonna remember what year this thing is. I know it's a Honda element with the 2.4 liter motor, i think, um, and I've had it at my shop for At least six months now.
Speaker 1:Okay and I have no clue what's wrong with it. From the first day I got it and looked at it till I was looking at it. Actually today I still have no idea what's wrong with it. And it's one of those cars. They're like you know, they're like we know this is a weird one. So, you know, just work on it when you can. So anytime I've got a little bit of free time I'll go out there and mess with it, you know. But it's so aggravating and I have no idea what's wrong with it, and every time I think I have something figured out. No, i've not put a part on it yet.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:I'm not through any parts at it.
Speaker 2:Is it a flood car or something?
Speaker 1:No, uh, it's just. I wouldn't even say it's a northern car, but it is a little rusty, but it's definitely not a flood car. And the issue is, when you first crank it up, it'll crank up just fine and About 10 seconds, 15 seconds in you put it in gear to try to pull off, it'll go dead. And if you very quickly Put it back in park and try to hit the starter, it sounds like it has no compression or very uneven compression, and I've even called it in a relative compression test.
Speaker 1:I've seen it where Uh one and four would show compression, but two and three would not. Okay and sometimes it would actually show that three and four would be low compression and one and two would be fine.
Speaker 2:Oh, interesting.
Speaker 1:It is very interesting and And the most consistent cylinder I would say is number three Would be the one that would show low compression. But it's one of those things like as soon as it goes dead, if you start to crank it back up, you can hear it. But if you let it sit for Five or ten seconds and then try to crank it, you got good, solid compression and it's fine interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and It will. It will do this. You generally on average about three times After the third time you're you're just not going to do it again. It will run bad. I've noticed that I always have um negative fuel trim, so it's it's always pulling out a lot of fuel. About short terms that are around Most time 18 to 25. Okay so it's definitely pulling fuel out for some reason.
Speaker 2:Is that the GDI motor on that one?
Speaker 1:No, no, it's just a regular, old regular fuel pump.
Speaker 2:Okay, pressure gotcha.
Speaker 1:But yeah, i They're. They've been pre-patient about it. But he's like you know, if you don't come up with something soon, don't worry about it, i'm just gonna send it back to an auction and cut my losses with it. So Yeah, if I don't figure it out, it's not that big a deal. But I kind of want to know what's wrong with it.
Speaker 1:It's Trust me, i know all that feels it is just such a strange issue and I The crazy thing is is like I know it's going to do this and every time I go out there and I Take number three spark plug out and put my WPS in there, It won't act up. Uh-huh, of course It'll be, it'll be completely fine.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But as soon as I take it out the next day, hey Is doing it.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it's almost like you test is altering the situation enough that it prevents it for act in the same way. I've been in the Almost exact scenario, especially when it comes to compression stuff, where it's like, okay, i've taken away, you know, spark from that cylinder or whatever to get my tool in there. Now I completely changed how the engine was running, you know, and, and it's not going to happen, i'm not going to be able to catch it there, but yeah, that's really interesting. Um, i mean, i wonder, like how rich would you say That it's actually running the trims getting control of it, or is the stink as this thing's running?
Speaker 1:whenever it will Stay running. I feel like it does have control. I can't remember what my long terms get to. I've probably got a screenshot of it somewhere, but I know I Watching my short terms it. It will sometimes pull out at least 25 percent. Okay very rarely will it go over 25, but usually it's between.