Automotive Diagnostic Podcast
A space to explore the diagnostic & technology side of automotive repair. We discuss tools, techniques, & ideas to sharpen your skills. We'll also interview experts in the automotive field.
Automotive Diagnostic Podcast
226: Module Cloning- Failures and Victories
Today on the show I'll share my experiences with module cloning, both the wins and the losses I've had. The need for USED modules to be programmed in vehicles doesn't seem to be going anywhere, and actually increasing with time, but it's not all rainbows and sunshine. Sometimes you run up against a wall. I'll cover Flex, Autel, IO terminal, ACDP, VVDI, AR32, & more.
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Welcome to the Automotive Diagnostic Podcast. We're going to explore ways to sharpen our diagnostic skills, find learning resources and hear from experts in the automotive field. This episode is brought to you by L1 Automotive Training and Keith Perkins. If you're looking for education on module programming, j2534, eprom work, key and immobilizer, electrical diagnostics or drivability diagnostics, keith has a website, l1trainingcom that's got over 60 hours of training videos on all those subjects and more. When I first started out doing mobile, I utilized Keith's videos on module programming and J2534 in order to get my head wrapped around what I would need for the tooling, the computers, the software setups, what kind of obstacles I would be up against when I'm out there programming modules on cars, and it was a huge benefit to me. I continue to use the training videos that he has on his website. I strongly recommend checking out L1trainingcom. Hey, what's going on? Automotive World? Welcome to another episode of the Automotive Diagnostic Podcast. My name is Sean Dipping and I'll be your host once again for today's episode. Thank you for joining me today on the show.
Speaker 1:I am going to talk about module cloning both my successes and failures and there's been a lot of both. I would say a fair amount of success. With this I mean enough to get me to pursue buying more tools and adding things and offering it as a service. But there's been plenty of failures along the way, which is to be expected of any new venture. Anything that you're diving into that you haven't done before, that maybe a lot of people haven't done before, that's a new area. You're going to run into failures. I think that's normal. I think it's a good thing. Honestly, it represents the challenge of what you're taking on. If it was easy and it just worked every time, everybody would do it. The fact that it's not a 100% thing it's still kind of the wild west right, we got some sheriffs in town now that are running some EEPROM classes, but it's still kind of a new world. When we talk about this module, cloning EEPROM stuff in the automotive world, right, again, really, really, really smart people out there doing this stuff way better than I am. But I've been doing a lot of it and I wanted to share in the podcast just some failures and successes so you get an idea. I know I get a lot of questions from people, right, like, hey, what tool should I buy? Or I'm thinking about this tool, or should I offer this as a service. There's a lot that goes into that and there's many Facebook posts and videos and stuff that might answer that question, even podcast episodes. I'll let you make that decision, but I can share my experience with this and maybe it'll help you think about these types of tooling methods and services for your customers.
Speaker 1:If, for no other reason than hey, we're up against it with part shortages continually right, I was kind of thinking, after the whole COVID thing and the supply chain issues subsided and we got back to normalcy, we wouldn't see as much of a need for used modules. But in the short term right now at least, that's not the case. We're still seeing a ton right, and there's the UAW strike going on which is perpetuating part shortages for a lot of components. We're seeing it a ton where I get a call from a shop and they're like, hey, there's none of these in the country, they don't know when we'll get one. Is there anything you can do?
Speaker 1:One of the ones is the GM Allison TCMs. Man, if you got a pile of those modules sitting around your house like you just won the power ball, I've seen them for sale, used for thousands of dollars, because these trucks are worthless, they don't move, they don't go anywhere if you don't have that module and there are no new ones to be found. There was a couple sprinkled out there here and there a few months ago, but they're way behind again and so I'll get calls on those. And the thing about those modules in particular is they're not fixable. Like you need a $100,000 wire bonding machine. I'm told I wouldn't even know how to fix one if I had that machine, but it's not a normal circuit board in these things and so nobody's fixing them and good luck getting one right Now. That's that, you know. That's kind of the exception.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we talked about the Ford TCMs and the folks and stuff where those were pretty tough to repair as well, but there is a lot of stuff where there's plenty of used ones out there, and I'm getting calls on more and more and more and more stuff lately to hey, can you make this used module work? Hey, we put a used blank and a blank. What can you do for us or can you help us with it? I do like when the shop calls ahead of time and asks rather than hey, we put this used transmission in this 2020 BMW Z4, can you program it? It doesn't go into gear. Like well, yeah, it doesn't go into gear. What did you think? And then my answer is I don't know. I've never tried a 2020 BMW Z4. The used transmission.
Speaker 1:Your guess is as good as mine, but doing what I do, I was like I'll give it a try and maybe that's a good place to start here. Really, what I'm going to do with this episode is just go through a number of vehicles that I've had success with cloning modules and some vehicles that were not so successful doing the very similar cloning processes. Just to give you an idea of, like this hey, this ain't all rainbows and sunshine, but there is some definite money to be made and advantages to having these skill sets and these, this tooling in your corner when these things are coming at you out there. Because, hey, if you're out there fixing cars, I have a feeling these things are coming at you and you might just be turning them down. Well, maybe you could capture that part of the market.
Speaker 1:With that being said, let's start with the 2020 BMW Z4 with a used 8 HP transmission, what he called me I'm like. I was like, okay, well, we'll give it a shot. So I get there and I've done some other 8 speed transmissions used for BMW and in the past I have used Autel, and Autel actually has what's called an EGS reset on these, where you can essentially reset the gearbox to new. As far as the car is concerned, the ISN, which is stored in the security module whatever that is on the particular vehicle and the engine control module is also shared within the transmission control module. That's my understanding of it. A BMW guy can correct me if that's not 100% accurate. But if that doesn't match up, it's not going to allow you to go into gear, right, the shifter's just an electronic knob in the center console, and I can say this for sure because I've seen it happen. Once the used ones put is put in, if it doesn't match up with the rest of the car, you're getting codes but you're not going to be able to shift, that it's not going to move, and that's usually when the shop calls me, says, hey, put in this used transmission, it doesn't go anywhere, yep. So you can use an Autel to reset that portion of it and you can do some stuff with the coding too, and I've done that in the past.
Speaker 1:Well, I did not have an option with Autel for this particular application in 2020, pretty new. I wasn't terribly surprised and I actually was thinking. I was like I don't even know if this thing is going to work at all. But I have some other tooling and again I want to kind of talk a little bit about the tooling, not so much how to use it. But hey, here's what worked or here's what didn't work.
Speaker 1:The tool that did work for me here was FLEX, and this is made by Magic Motorsports, I believe they're over in the UK. I've had this for a little over a year and a half now. It has been a fantastic tool when it comes to module cloning. Now it's geared towards engine and transmission computers pretty specifically. There's a handful of other things, but really it's just geared towards engine and transmission. So if you're looking for key stuff or body control modules, this is not your tool. But if you want to do engine and transmission programming, this thing will handle just about everything and what it says it will handle. For the most part, it does an extremely good job at this. I've only had a couple instances where it didn't work out for me and I'll share that with you. But boy, if Flex says it can do it, it can do it, and if it's not, it very well could be user error, which even in the one I'm going to mention, it may have been user error. I don't think so. But anyways, back to this BMW. I don't want to get ahead of myself here.
Speaker 1:The use transmission ended up working by cloning it with Flex. It took a little bit of setting up with the connectors and stuff and I do recommend, if you're doing transmission cloning and you see the similar vehicle over and over again, get a connector that you can just slap on there and then connect to your tool, right. So this is like the connector that belongs on that transmission. Do that especially with the ZF stuff, because a lot of these ZF transmissions, this HPE and like all the transmissions that go out, it's the Ford's, it's the GM's, it's the BMW's, they're in everything. They have these round real deep connectors, right. So the pins are way deep down inside the female side of the connector and if that thing's up in the vehicle, which it usually is, getting to those pins with like a pinout kit is an absolute bear. I did that once and it took me like an hour to get the pins in the right position using a boroscope and it was stupid. I went out that night and I bought all the connectors I could for all of the ZF transmissions to make my life somewhat easier.
Speaker 1:But anyways, flex, clone this thing, no problems. One for one, no issues with it. I cleared codes after I was done. That was it Right. And again, flex isn't cheap, don't get me wrong. It is an investment, for sure, and you got to be. I mean, there's different levels in which you can buy in different packages and whatever. If you want the full thing, you're going to be dropping some dough on this. And so it's not just something like, hey, I might get a BMW transmission, I'm going to go buy a flex. It's not quite this tool. You need to say, hey, I'm going to make an intentional push to get these types of services into my bay. That's my goal. So here's the. I'm going to buy you know what I would consider kind of the gold star, a lot of the programming equipment when it comes to ECM, tcm. But it won't do everything.
Speaker 1:A couple of examples of Volkswagen Audi are the ones where I've had some issues with flex not being able to make a used module work. And two examples of that an Audi transmission I think it was an S four, if I remember correctly. I tried to do the same thing one for one. Clone with flex did not work. Once in the vehicle it would not function the way I expected it to. And same thing on a 16 Tiguan for the ECM. And the interesting thing was flex listed the ECM and had a pinout and a Reddit and a wrote it and said successful. But when it was in there it didn't work. The module in the Tiguan, it was set in all kinds of security codes Actually I don't even remember if it started, but it was not functional. It did not work the way I was expecting it to. Right, when you clone something and you have the functional original module, you expect to be able to just plug it in and it works and that's it. It's not. It was not the case here and it wasn't the case with my Audi transmission.
Speaker 1:These are used parts again. That's the reason I'm cloning and I don't recall how I got to the solution on the Audi. I think I was just running through my tools. I'm like well, I'll try this, but I remember on the Tiguan I called Tommy. I'm like Tommy, what do I do? Flex said it would do it and it didn't do it. What? Where do I go? He's like you dumbass, why don't you use an Otis? You have Otis, right? I'm like, yeah, but it's a used module, it's just yeah. So, anyways, otis is the answer. I don't know up to what year, I don't know when the cutoff is. That was a 16. I think I've done newer than a 16 as well, but Otis does a really good job and that's the factory software platform for Volkswagen.
Speaker 1:Audi does a fantastic job at used modules. Now, the tool isn't the most user-friendly Intuitive platform in the world, but if you figure it out and you do a little bit of reading, you can figure out how to use it. And Once you know where to go to set up a used module, like in the case of the Audi transmission, you know I'm removing component protection. It's super, super easy, right, but I needed the factory tool in order to complete the job. So it's just an example where, if you're gonna try to clone those modules At least the tools that I had didn't work for me hey, if somebody's out there and like, yeah, just use this tool, it'll clone and no problem.
Speaker 1:I'd definitely be interested to hear. But, like I said, for me flex has kind of been that shining star of ECM, tcm programmers, and even with it there's things that it won't do. Now also being said, they're always updating this stuff, so that could have changed between the time I tried it last and now. But I do have a Habit of if I have a tool it doesn't do a function that I want it to do, I Generally won't try it again. There's an exception coming up to that, but it's like once I run up against a roadblock with something and then I find a tool that will do it, I usually don't go back to the tool it doesn't. So if things have changed since the last time I tried it, it's definitely possible. But I'm sure there are other examples where it's just not quite there for that particular application.
Speaker 1:We have got auto rescue tools and Isaac Rodel as a sponsor for this podcast. Hey guys, if you're looking for Programming laptops, you want the laptop set up, ready to go for programming control modules on vehicles. You need key cutting equipment, you need diagnostic tools. Isaac is your guy, has all that stuff available for purchase and the support that he offers along with the purchase has been outstanding. I bought some stuff from him in the past. I got my dolphin key cutting tool from him several years back and Again the support has been phenomenal. Help me out along the way with anything additional. I needed to make it work for me, so make sure to check that out as well. Again, that's auto rescue tools. Calm, the link will be in the show notes. All right, I'm again kind of just gonna do this tool by tool and let you know what I find here.
Speaker 1:The next tool is the Autel, and this is really. The XP400 is the programming device that's going to allow you to do some cloning and reading your chips and does a lot of key stuff too. But that's tied in with the IM608 or 508. And I have both of those. I usually utilize the 608, but you can use both with the XP400, which is the actual programmer, and I really like this tool. You'll give me crap for it, but I use it for a lot of my eProm reading. I find it pretty intuitive and easy to use and it does okay on eProm. Sometimes you need to remove them from the circuit and in that case, maybe an AR32 might be your better option, but I like it and sometimes it's just what you're used to. But it'll do some module cloning.
Speaker 1:For example, I had a 2015 Nissan Rogue. And this one was interesting because the shop called me, said, hey, we're putting a used ECM in there. And actually this was another case where they're like, yeah, we got a new ECM for this thing. And my employee gets out there he's like this is a used part, like okay. So I told him okay, tell them to grab the modules, bring them home. 14 and up Nissan's. It requires board work if you want to make a used engine control module work. Beyond below that, you can use some tooling, aftermarket tooling or even console, and make a used module work. No problem. 14 and up, not so much. And so I wasn't even going to have them waste this time. I just want to grab the modules. I'll do this on the bench at home.
Speaker 1:Now, as far as I'm aware, you have to open up these control modules if you want to try to clone them, which I did, and I use the hotel. Now here's the interesting part. I found that the module that they provided me and I found this based off the VIN that I was able to pull from the module it was out of a 13. So this is going into a 15 rogue and it's out of a 13. And the module has a different part number on the tag. The boards look the same, the chip was the same. There was actually the same part number on the board, but I told them when I got there and I was able to swap the data that I got out of one module to the other using hotel and I was like, hey guys, this is two years different. I will be really surprised if this is going to work Well. To my amusement, this thing was plug and play, no issues, plugged it in, fired up. So apparently between a 13 and a 15 rogue you can use the same control module and you just need to do some fancy footwork to transfer over the VIN and ANA theft info. So maybe this was one where I could have done without cloning it, but I'll tell that just fine and clone that thing over, and I was impressed that it worked. So that's one area where it shines.
Speaker 1:Another area where I've utilized the hotel was to do some used Mercedes transmissions, and these Mercedes transmissions are extremely expensive, brand new, and so customers don't want to pay. I don't know what it is like six or eight grand, I think I was told. Maybe that's the full job, I don't know. Somebody a transmission shop can give me the total, but apparently they're really expensive. So people want to buy used ones, which aren't even that cheap, but you've got to do a clone job in order to get these transmissions to work. Now I tell it's been great for that. I had the other day a 2014 GLK 350.
Speaker 1:I was unable to clone this transmission over, even though everything I could find it was the same transmission that I've done in earlier models, and I've done a number of them. This one didn't work and actually needed any of the tools that I had. But I'll tell just apparently didn't support this operation and 15 is supposed to be cut off for Mercedes when it comes to used modules under normal conditions. Apparently, this one did not work and I was looking into, like, what version of the security system is it? There's FSB three and FSB four. If it's a four, you're not going to be able to do it. This one wasn't, but might maybe just close enough. Where they changed the version, something happened. I wasn't able to do it, so that's how I was a fail on this one. Now, in all tells, defense there's.
Speaker 1:I wasn't able to do with any of the tools that I had, but I, when the shop called me and like, hey, I got to use transmission. It's a 14. It's the 7 or 7, 22.9. Hey, can you do this? I'm like, yep, it's this much, get it set up. I want it up on the hoist, it's original. They get it all set up for me and I can't do it. So it's a let down. For sure I was a little bummed out, but that's the way it goes, especially with this stuff. You don't know what you're running into all the time. This one didn't work for me. Okay, so I'll make a note of that for the future. I'm not going to take on those 14s anymore, unless somebody tells me different, tells me how to do it with another tool, but it didn't work for me.
Speaker 1:Another one of my absolute favorite cloning tools, one of the first ones that I owned, was IO terminal, and you'll probably hear lots and lots and lots of stuff out there on IO terminal. I've talked about it a bunch. It's a fantastic tool. Fantastic, especially if you're doing GMs, ecm, tcm and even some BCM stuff. I did one on a Cadillac. It was slick 14 Cadillac thing had all kinds of problems with the hazards, the wipers and all this stuff. I cloned it over, didn't clone the problem. Just boom, plug and play, you're done. Now it only covers some GM BCMs Probably not all of them, but the main thing I use it for 90% of IO terminals use is ECM and TCM for General Motors vehicles and that's a straight one for one clone. You have no issues, it just fricking works. It's been great and I love that tool for that. Now I'd buy it again just for that purpose.
Speaker 1:Now, even within that, there are examples of where it doesn't work. There are some GM ECMs where it's unable to do its thing, and I think it was. I should actually have this up in my notes for this episode, but I think it was. There are some ECMs that it does not complete the job. With the E78 or 38, it might actually be both of them there's a section of the ECM, the flash, that it won't write and if you leave it it ends up having a module processor error. You have to finish it with SPS. Now, in some cases I'm still going to use it because that's the only way to do the use module, but you have to finish it with TLC. Like it's an incomplete. And I ran into a I think it was a newer Chevy Cruze. I don't remember the module number, but it wouldn't complete it right. So there's definitely modules where this doesn't have complete coverage.
Speaker 1:On the other thing here and this is probably, I would get it for general motors ECM, tcm all day long, even with the ones it doesn't do the one area I would caution people against with this tool is Ford BCMs, because the tool's kind of praised to be hey, I'm going to save you a lot of time cloning over Ford BCMs. If you've ever done a Ford BCM, it's a ton of work. It's a bunch of messing around In addition to the programming. Gotta have two keys, gotta have two remotes, gotta have four working TPMS sensors, gotta do eight different resets. Once you're done, right, it's time consuming and charge accordingly. I get that, but it's just cumbersome to do a Ford BCM and a lot of things that you have to organize with the customer and nobody ever has two keys okay. That's why I sell keys.
Speaker 1:But if I have the option to do a one for one clone, that's fantastic and I have used that for these Ford BCMs and it was interesting because I think I was I don't want to say the victim's, not the right word but I was definitely victim to some early success with this tool, which led me to be overconfident with it when it came to Ford BCMs. And here's what I mean. The first like three or four that I did it was a one for one clone Read, copy paste, plug in, you're done. I only needed one key. I didn't care about the TPMS sensor, I didn't do it. I scan it right. But that's it, you're done, you're out of there. Boom, I'm charging the same amount for the BCM programming and I'm moving on. And again, it worked. For like the first three or four that I did, no issues.
Speaker 1:And then since then I've had a ton of issues with Ford BCMs. Now one thing I can say if you're doing a used BCM and IO terminal covers the BCM, it's pretty bulletproof and I've had it work very well. It will make it one for one copy. You can plug it in, you can go, you're good to go. New BCMs I have almost stopped using IO terminal. Now there are some applications where it's worked for me with no issues some of the Ford trucks. But the cars, the SUVs and some of the trucks have given me nothing but issues.
Speaker 1:And the problem is is like once you try to clone it and then you end up with issues. Well then you gotta go back after you've realized that oh hey, this caused issues and then you gotta do it the regular way. So now you've just wasted a bunch of time trying to save time and I've done that. I've done that repeatedly after I started seeing these issues, but again I had such good success with it at first I'm like this is gonna work. I know that was just a weird one. No, no, it keeps happening to me and I don't know if it's something to do with a new processor and the new BCM, but I just do them the legit Ford way now, and I was looking at it as a big time saver and especially with something that needs like an LSID and filing a D1, it just isn't worth it. So I do it the legit way now.
Speaker 1:Now again doesn't make it a bad tool, but there are definitely things that it won't do. There are definitely situations where it's right to use it and wrong to use it, and I avoid it with Ford BCMs for sure. Honestly, those are probably the big three that I use for module cloning. I do have a number of other tools, but a lot of those end up being kind of one off for one reason or another. But cloning programming tool that I have that I really, really, really like is ACDP, and I think I talked about this before and this little thing has really knocked it out of the park for just about everything that I've used it for Now. It's kind of specific to ECM, tcm and keys. Well, I guess now I think about it does do some body control module stuff on European too.
Speaker 1:This thing has been awesome and the cost of it in the way that they have it set up, where you can buy things modular, so right, you can get. Hey, I wanted to get the BMW BCM kit or the BCM or the BMW key setup or I want to get the Jaguar or BCM kit or whatever. You can buy it per kit and it works really well and I know they have a second version out of it. I haven't bought that yet but I have the original version and it's been a fantastic little tool. So I've been talking about some failures on the rest of the modules. I don't really have one for ACDP. Maybe I haven't used it enough. I'm sure there is something you know where it's gonna fall short all of these tools do. But I've done a number of BMW modules, stuff with some CAS, some fem modules, some key programming with it. Boy, it's been pretty awesome. Definitely no complaints there. Um, and there's a lot of other programmers too. That's the problem.
Speaker 1:You get into this and you just you can go crazy and Spend all kinds of money. And I have other stuff too. I mentioned. They are 32. There's VVDI Prague and two. There's CAS switch actually, that's one I don't have never used it, haven't found a need for it yet, but that doesn't mean that there isn't one out there.
Speaker 1:But that's kind of the I don't know good or bad, depending on how you look at it thing about this is you get into it and you've got an endless thing of tools to buy and then you start taking out more work here, like, oh, I can't do this one Job, I have to go buy this other tool that I didn't have. That's kind of the way it is. But I do feel like this is a Very valuable piece of my business that I've added on that, just another thing that I've got in my pocket to be able to say yes to the customer and make it happen For the customer. That's a big deal for me. I want to be able to do that, and these tools have allowed me to make that happen, even though it doesn't always work. But that's kind of the fun of it too. You get into something like, well, I don't know if I can do that or not, let's give it a try and see what happens. So Hopefully this is helpful information for you. Again, I have a lot of questions on this recently, so I want to share my perspective on the tools that I use on a regular basis and give you some real life, realistic Expectations when you buy this things I'm.
Speaker 1:I don't sell any of those tools just so. You know. Well, some of my sponsors might, but I Don't sell any of those. That's just the stuff that I purchased that I've used. So Take it for what you will, but hey, I appreciate you listen to the show. I appreciate all the feedback you give me about the show really do. Thank you so much. But with that out of the way, let's get out there. Starfixer the world, one card at a time.