The University of Life & Ryan Moresby-White

Depth is earned, not posted.

In this episode, we sit with Ryan to explore how a man becomes trustworthy by putting his message in his body — choosing to feel, to grieve, and to stay open when the nervous system wants to shut everything down. What begins as a story of childhood loneliness expands into a lived framework for modern masculinity, one that refuses the false choice between mission and love.

We speak candidly about the pressure and velocity of online growth, and the nervous system cost of living under millions of eyes. Ryan shares the practices that keep him honest: breathwork, ritualised detachment from metrics, and the discipline of rest. Heartbreak emerges as an unskippable teacher, exposing where identity collapses into relationship — and how healthy shame (not toxic shame) can become the pause that changes everything.

We unpack spread activation and implicit memory to explain why a small conflict can feel like a tidal wave, and how to meet that surge without being pulled under. From there, the conversation widens into provision beyond money: the capacity to hold tension, tell the truth, and create safety.

Rigid stoicism and the chase narrative are challenged. We distinguish neediness from clean, masculine choosing. Selectivity becomes self-care. Boundaries become proof of respect. Ryan offers a simple pyramid for capacity — self at the top, supported by two equal foundations: mission and family.

No one leaves childhood unmarked. We close with grief, forgiveness, and the relief of embracing imperfect humanity. Security doesn’t require perfection. It requires presence.

If this conversation gave you language or courage, follow the show, share it with a friend who needs it, and leave a review to help more men find this work. And tell us — what will you choose fully this week: yourself, your mission, your love… or all three?

Transcript

Embodiment And Living Your Message

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Um Ryan, there's a backstory to why I've invited you here to have a chat. Can I tell you? Please. Okay, so a little while ago you connected with a friend of mine. And my friend loves sharing without oversharing, let's say. But as she shared, I s I and I heard, I was like, this man is incredible. Who is this man? And she showed me your Instagram and I was like, oh my god, how refreshing. Somebody that actually embodies what they're sharing online. Does that resonate?

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Thank you. A big I would say the biggest priority for me in what I share in my content is embodiment. And uh yeah, like it can actually be at fault sometimes because I find myself like second guessing my my content and the message I'm putting out there, and it keeps me really tied to the message that I am putting out there. Um but yeah, like that's embodiment over anything. Um, in a world where uh technology technology is progressing and uh we're becoming more disconnected from soul, and in that the embodiment is becoming more surface level. And I think to be to be a powerful man in the world now is to be a man of depth of embodiment and a man who is is connected to to his heart, to his soul. And um yeah, so that's that's uh that's at the forefront of every piece of content I share is is making sure it's coming from the deepest, most most true place possible. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

So that's what I felt when I went through your content, when I read my way through post after post, I was like, wow, it's very refreshing to feel this kind of content. I say feel because when you read, I think there's you know, some people say stuff, there's others that you actually feel, and I felt your content. The thing for me is I felt it was really hard-earned. And and I I always look at like you know, you get this impression, you look at someone online, you're like, Oh god, they must be so perfect, they must be so great. But I was looking through yours, I was like, I wonder what he's been through. I wonder what he had to go through to get to that level of death, to get to that level of embodiment. Um hence I was like, wow, fantastic time to have a chat chat with somebody like that. Yeah, um and i i i is that true? Like, does that resonate? When I share that with you, are you are you like, yeah, yeah.

Childhood Loneliness And Self-Isolation

SPEAKER_00 2:34

Yeah, I we all have depth, right? And it's the courageous ones who enter the cave and meet the deepest parts of themselves. And I I believe that uh those who have experienced the greatest pain are the the ones who hold the greatest depth because they have had no other option but to enter the cave and meet the deepest parts of themselves. So yeah, I mean I grew up and had a really amazing childhood, but there was no real I I grew up I grew up in a home that I felt deeply alone in. And it's really it was that saying of you could be in a crowded room, you could be around people and feel so deeply alone. And that was my entire childhood. It was like a life, an entire life of this empty emptiness, this lack, this something, something was missing, and this deep void of just nothingness, of just emptiness and this this loneliness that most of my life was then driven by. And the most scary thing we can experience as humans is to feel that we're alone.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

I I I actually I know you're talking about childhood, but I've actually it's funny over the last two weeks we've bumped into each other maybe 10 times. Yeah, every time I see you, you're on your own. Every time you see you're like you're like sitting in your own presence, in your own world. And again, I thought to myself, yeah, if a guy's actually writing this content, if a guy is sharing this content online, it requires a lot of time to sit with yourself. You know, if a guy is going to this depth within himself and embodying that, that's a lot of time looking in the mirror, that's a lot of time analysing, which is rewarding in terms of what you get to share. But for me, certainly, I'd resonate with a lot of that. I find that process haunting, and um yeah, I I found it really hard when you're confronted with having to really truly see yourself, yeah.

Opening To Community And The Ongoing Dance

SPEAKER_00 4:38

So it's our deepest wounds can also, you know, be the greatest gift we get to share with the world, but the the man that was shaped by a life of this deep loneliness is still part of who I am today. And I learned how to spend a lot of time on my own. I learned how to be in my own energy, I learned how to uh be with myself uh to the detriment of myself a lot of the times, actually, where I didn't lean into community or connection, or I struggled opening my heart because I there's a there was a little boy within me that felt that if I open my heart to love and connection, it's gonna remind me of that same loneliness that I felt and experienced my entire life and childhood. And that was the blueprint and the paradigm of what love and opening my heart to being in relationship was for me was loneliness and emptiness and emotional unavailability and all of that that that comes with that. So, why would I connect with anyone? Why would I open my heart to people? Why would I be in community and put myself in that position when it's just gonna reflect and reveal this loneliness that I felt my entire life? So yeah, I got really good at self-isolating, really good at doing everything on my own. And uh sometimes it's it is a constant battle still, like it comes up, and I just sometimes connection for me does feel overwhelming, and that's the that's the continued opening, choosing to open when every part of me wants to close and shut down. And it's the parts of me that want to close or isolate or do it by myself on my own by myself uh in in self-isolation is typically the the little boy who feels overwhelmed. And when I go in and connect with that younger part of me and he feels my presence, uh it creates an opportunity for an opening in in the closure. So uh yeah, like that's it's it's still a constant dance, and I think it it forever will be of you know, that's for however many years, like that's how I did things, yeah. And um, there's a beautiful gift in that as well, is I've I've really I've I would feel mastered life on my own. Yeah, but what's a fucking life if you're doing it on your own? And I have definitely reached a point within like my soul's capacity. It's like my soul has gotten to a place of we can do this on our own, it's great, but it's looking for more spaciousness now, which is going to create this deeper uh maturity and expansion through actually um deeper devotion and in connection and partnership and deeper friendships, brotherhood and community and deepening in in my work with my clients and in my mission and um allowing myself to open my heart more to the world. So that's um there's a gift in it too.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

Okay, I have to ask you the like the cliche question. We're coming up to Christmas, right? And like if we were at home at Christmas, you'd be sat down with perhaps extended family, relatives, and they'd be like, What do you do? And I was thinking, like, how do I even introduce you? And I'd I'd be curious if if you were asked by let's say a long-lost uncle or something, oh Ryan, what are you doing with yourself now? How do you even describe them?

SPEAKER_00 8:04

It's definitely different to everyone. Whoever whoever asks the question the question, it's definitely a different answer based on how much time we've got, based on maybe what they may or may not understand. For some people, I'm like, you know, I just help men become better. Or when I know someone's in the work, or you know, they're willing to maybe seek to understand, I share with them. Like, I I help men heal their childhood, I help them reclaim the hurt little boy within them so they can actually be the safe mature man in their life.

SPEAKER_01 8:37

Um I love hearing that given what you've shared, that essentially it's so obvious you're showing up as the coach you wished you had in your life 10, 15, 20 years ago.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

And the father.

SPEAKER_01 8:49

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's I I I think the purest coaches are are those that show up essentially helping their younger selves. Um are correcting wounds exactly like like they perhaps endured. It must be so fulfilling. Like to get to like because there is a weird thing. We can't necessarily go back in time and and and cure ourselves, but there is something incredible of saving somebody the same experience, or helping somebody through the experience in a way in which you perhaps didn't get. Um and you're like your work, like I I've followed you now for a couple a year or so now, and it but your following has just like doubled, doubled, doubled, doubled again. I'm kind of curious. On one side it must be really, really fulfilling, on the other side it's probably a bit a little bit pressure, some too, right?

What Do You Do And Why Men’s Work

SPEAKER_00 9:44

Yes, uh, a lot of pressure. Yeah, and a pressure I don't really speak about too much. Because you know, a lot of people can very easily dismiss it. You know, you don't have to do it. But I know for I I know with every part of me that my soul has signed up for this and there is pressure around uh the the pressure for me comes around it's so easy for me to do what I do and help and serve and and give to an extent and it it's easy, I could just keep going, and that's been my my downfall. I I could work 15 hours a day, every single day, and just keep going, keep going, keep going. Because when you're on path with what your soul has signed up to do, it's very it gives you energy, it lights you up. It's so deeply fulfilling and rewarding helping so many men, hundreds of millions and millions of men through my content. Uh, one of my mentors shared with me, you'll help more people through your content than your business actually ever will. And so through the millions of men that I've helped and impacted through, like when I started content, I was like, if I can just help one person, if one person, if one man can get onto my page and read through my content and that save him, his marriage, his partnership, um, that be the space for him to learn how to be a safe man for his children and be the father that his children are needing, which is you know what I needed as a little boy, right? This is where like our deepest pain becomes our greatest purpose, right? Like the father, the emotionally connected father that I didn't have is what I'm trying to help so many men reconnect to because I know the hole that left in my soul growing up. So uh it's very easy, very, very easy to just keep driving and keep driving and keep driving. And the discipline for me is actually switching off, it's actually stepping away from it, it's creating space. Uh, so the the biggest challenge or struggle is not the the there's there's definitely external pressure of people's projections and um outside energy definitely you know trying to come in. Uh, but it's more so the the pressure that I feel on myself to have to having to keep showing up. Like I have this responsibility. And there's been the the boy in that too, the boy who felt and feels overly responsible for how everyone feels, which is exactly how I felt in childhood, which is uh I'm I'm the one who has to solve and fix it all and uh be the one who is the parent to the parents emotionally, and that's um yeah, that can that can creep in sometimes. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

Can I just wrap my head around that? So you felt really lonely, and let's say in certain capacities, not supported as you should have been at a younger age, and as a result, you really feel a lot of emotion, a lot of challenge. You dive into this work, not out of kind of pleasure, out of real necessity. So, because that that isolation at a certain time starts to take its toll. That what the mind that perhaps let's say isn't as nurtured as we'd like starts to really wander and really challenge. So you dive into this work, you get so much from it personally that you're like, I want to share that. And and and you share it, and people engage with it and they love it. I and and that's almost drug-like. That's like, oh, that feels great. And it is it is healing a little part part of you, and at the same time, it's also bringing healing to others, yeah. But then with it is the kind of the presumption, oh well, if he's the authority here, he should be the authority, and there's a feeling of wanting to keep up appearances with that with yourself, and so there's almost this like always-on, always working drug-like hook that keeps going. And in a certain time, you actually almost have to forcibly pull yourself back from it. You almost have to perhaps be a messer at some stages of like down the tools and just fuck things up a little bit, perhaps, to give yourself the break of that always being on that self-pressure. Is that right?

SPEAKER_00 14:12

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, uh being somewhat of a I don't I didn't actually like saying the word, but like a leader in the space or someone that people look to in the space. Um, the greatest pressure that comes with that is them thinking that my embodiment's perfect and that I get it right 100% of the time, and that I'm this perfect, safe, regulated man all the time. Like that's the pressure, people having that expectation, and then they meet me and they're like, Oh, you are actually human. Oh, what is so like I and that's why I love sharing you know longer form um conversations like this so people can actually feel feel that uh so that there definitely is that pressure. Um, and bro, there's a it's it's uh one of the easiest forms of addiction is like it's crazy. Like our nervous system isn't it's not normal for our nervous system to have this much attention, yeah, to have this many people looking to you as someone that can help them or serve them. Uh I was actually chatting with a friend of mine who's who's a great storyteller in mythology, and he's like, not even kings back in the day had as much attention as you have right now, as much eyes on you. And when he said that, my nervous system was like, oh fuck, like that's what it is. It's it's like this pressure of no nervous system's not designed to have this many projections and people's opinions and thoughts about you, and right, but yet it can be also so addictive as well.

SPEAKER_01 15:58

It's a really hard I actually get when you're sharing, like you almost have to forcibly pull yourself out. And interesting for the guy who isolated at a younger stage, you almost want to want to very consciously isolate yourself away from those pressures as well, just to let your nervous system can. Wow.

Purpose, Pressure, And Detaching From Fame

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Yeah, so one thing I've noticed that as my my following has grown on social media, I think we're uh we're just about to hit a million across both platforms. Um whenever I hit some sort of milestone, it I actually, for me, it's a practice of loss, it's a practice of actually letting it all go. Uh the other day I hit another milestone with with my following, with the audience, and that night I was like, cool, okay, I'm gonna actually create a space to to breathe. Breath, so breath work is is a deep embodiment embodiment practice of mine. Of uh, it's a space for me to really open my system and feel and process and grieve and allow myself to um to uh expand beyond uh the contraction of my nervous system. And what I did was I actually laid down and went into a breath work journey and I I I grieved it as if I'm like, cool, like uh let's say tonight I die, right? Who gives a fuck about the number? Like I don't I don't actually care. And it was this finding a way to actually how much can I actually let go of this, detach from it, and remove myself from it. So it's not who I am, yeah, but it's just an extension of me sharing my my heart sort of thing. So it's the more traction and eyeballs, the more I actually have to step back and let go of it. And that de-attachment is is the only way I can keep going. Otherwise, it'll just literally just swallow me up.

SPEAKER_01 17:51

So little by little, as you scale up, you actually have to detach to the point that it means less and less, so you can continue on your journey because if it if it means too much, it'll consume you. Yeah. Can I share what's coming up for me as you're talking? I I kind of actually misunderstood your point. And what was coming up for me was there was a period within, let's say, two months where my business doubled. The number of clients I had, the number of hours I was working with them, the amount I was earning. There was one part of me which was like, This is great. I love my work too. I get off on it. I'm like, oh, it's great. I sometimes do need to pull myself back from it. Um also love money. So when someone's like, hey, you've just earned twice as much, I'm like, woo-hoo. But I actually recognize that when I look back at that time, I had to double my stress capacity. I I had to cut off. Uh and what like doubling your stress capacity means is obviously you need to build yourself up, and there's certain practices to build up your stress capacity, but at the other stage as well, you can't afford to expend stress in certain areas. So within those two months, I let go of certain friendships. I pulled myself back from certain connections, certain habits, little things that were weighing heavier on my stress capacity. That's as simple as perhaps eating certain foods. A little habit at night, like say if you're looking at your phone before you go to bed, it will stress you enough. You can take that away, you get a bit of stress capacity back, which went into my work. I definitely recognized that in that time as my business doubled, I mourned some of the relationships that just couldn't continue on, some of the habits that just couldn't continue on. And in that, parts of me that just had to go. And it was a lovely thing to get to step up, but I also had to stay say goodbye. And it was warranted, the stepping up completely warranted saying goodbye to those. But that didn't mean I didn't mourn it. And it was it was a sad process that I probably went through at the time a little bit, let's say, unconsciously. But now when going back, I could see, yeah, that was exactly it. And so with every step up I recognize we take in life, and I think it's funny in the manifestation space where people are like, oh, I want to in. This into my life. It's like great. Have you thought about all the things you need to let go of? I have this cliche saying for every breakthrough, there needs to be a breakup. And I think it's so true. But we often we just think about the breakthrough. We often think about the leveling up. We don't think about what we need to let go of along the way. And I was I was thinking, like, yeah, in any journey, we let go of an enormous amount along the way. And so it's not just the attachment to the success that's building, but it's also like I feel I feel very cliche podcast host here, but I'm like, Ryan, tell me about the sacrifices you've made along the way. But it's right, it resonates, I imagine. Things come up for you? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:46

Yeah. There's got to be blood in the game. Right? There's got to be some sort of sacrifice in if you want to have the level of of impact that you want to create and leave a mark and help and serve people and be a man on mission and of purpose. There's there's got to be blood in the game. And what I mean by that is you've got to sacrifice a lot of shit. You've got to let go of uh spending a lot of time with people. You gotta let go of the versions of you, the parts of you that just want to go and be free and you know live in the jungle. And right, there's there's parts of you that you actually have to temporarily sacrifice in this time, in this point point of time, really honor the season that you're in and what you're building and leaving behind. Um so yeah, for me, I know that I'm in the season of building and growing, and there is there is sacrifice in that, and it's less time with people that I that I love.

Growth Costs: Sacrifice And “Blood In The Game”

SPEAKER_01 21:48

So interesting here that the man who fought hard against loneliness and to breed connection into his life at a certain time as the work takes off has to actually go back to that very thing that works so hard to avoid. Funny the way work what life plays itself out. I I don't know why. It's weird. As you're speaking, I have this almost this montage of let's say a partner, let's say there's a partner in your life and I was thinking of pronouns. I was like, he, she, don't think about it, absolutely hate pronouns. But anyway, they let's say are like like actually, it's like do you have any idea what I've done to actually get here? I I I and that that that's a curious one of like because again, I think some people think oh you trend online and you just you do well, or or yeah, this this the these these hard earned uh bits of knowledge and insight into life and into psychology, it just comes to you. It's like no, that was a broken heart. Yeah, that was me being absolutely humiliated, yeah. Um and and yeah, it's a it's a I I I've certainly had this where I got kind of like I right now. I'm really happy, let's say, of myself. I'm like, wow, I feel wise, I feel playful, I feel light. But when I I really sit with myself and I reflect back, I'm like getting here, I lit I literally feel like I've been through a battle. It's like oh yeah, that's a chunk of the heart there, that's the right knee gone. Like it it's a lot, and uh, and yeah, you I you I certainly get the impression when I'm sit sitting in front of you and you're talking about oh, there needs to be blood in the game. I'm like, yeah, I imagine. I totally imagine.

SPEAKER_00 23:32

In in any initiation, there has to be some form of sacrifice, right? In it's literally embedded into the hero's journey. There is a part of you that dies and is sacrificed within the pit of your deepest pain, that then you within that you learn the lesson, you learn the wisdom, you gain the new sword, the new weapon, whatever it is that you then surface to the world with. And that's when I say blood in the game, it could also be there's a part of you that needs to die. There's a younger, more immature part of you that needs to be let go of, so a more mature, grounded, conscious man can appear. And I what comes to me is that that saying of uh you don't know how much chaos or pain or hurt it's taken for me to become this present, this grounded.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

Yeah, yeah, it's bloody good. Yeah, the I I'd love to ask your greatest teacher what do you sit back on and be like that taught me the most? Heartbreak? Yeah, same like without even a thought.

SPEAKER_00 24:43

Heartbreak, absolutely 100%. I think everyone needs to experience heartbreak. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:50

Several times if you're lucky.

SPEAKER_00 24:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um one of the greatest things that ever happened to me was the woman I loved more than anything. I got home one day and she left. And my heart cracked wide open. My it was the shattering of the wounded ego that could have only happened through an impact that was that hard. Someone that I would have sacrificed my life for, which I did, and that is why I lost myself in that relationship. Because there was a little boy within me who experienced that lifetime of emptiness and loneliness, and he finally had this incredible woman that could fill that hole. But I lost myself in that completely. Yeah, that resonates.

Heartbreak As Teacher And Losing Yourself

SPEAKER_01 25:44

Yeah. I so so let me make that personal just to see if we're hit the nail on the head. So I recognize in a past relationship I love my partner so much that fuck those other parts of me. We'll prune them all with we'll push them all aside because I want to prioritize this connection with herself. I'm and I'm for whatever reasons, but I'm sure that's probably the core reason. Yeah, one day she came back and broke up with me. I have this feeling that I I really believe we thrive in connection. I don't believe in this kind of let's say overly stoic, isolated man that, like, oh, I'm great on my own. It's like, no, dude, you're brokenhearted. Mend those wounds and come back into connection. But I believe we as humans, we thrive in connection. I believe what like whatever level of therapy or coaching a man does, he will never realize the greater levels of true authentic confidence that he does when a woman looks at him in the eyes and says, I love you, all of you. All those parts that perhaps you're trying to hide away from me, I love them too. And when somebody else will love the parts of us that we're struggling, I think it's like, oh, it's almost permission to love them too. And this weird confidence that I see. Like I see some guys in relationship, and suddenly it's like, wow, you've just doubled your career. You like bought a new home, had a kid, and you're thriving. And I think that's what really comes from connection. But in those moments where it's it's gone and uh and it's let's say almost taken away or something like that, it it is so disorientating. And it causes such like you know, there's obviously the victim that wants to come in and be like, why is this happening to me? But at a certain point, the only way to heal through that is to see how did I bring this upon myself? Where can I take responsibility here? And oh my good God, is there a catalyst for learning there or what?

SPEAKER_00 27:35

Yeah, I think there'll be there'll be those one or two breakups that you experience in your life that reveal everything that was unfinished from childhood. And it's the greatest gift you can ever experience is having a woman mirror back to you these parts of you that you've suppressed or pushed away for most of your life, and the opportunity for you to heal that the little boy, the little boy that comes up in relationship, and vice versa. We are wounded in relationship with our mother and our father, and we heal in relationship with uh mothers, healthy mothers and fathers. What I mean by that is healthy men, safe men, and through women who are connected to themselves, who are in their power. Uh not from the place of because there's it's really important that we actually find healthy mothers and fathers in the world, not from the place of a little boy seeking to complete or fulfill the void of what was missing in his childhood through these healthy mothers and fathers, men and women, but to heal within relationship the parts of him that just couldn't be healed or he didn't have the safety to be felt or to be healed in when he in childhood when he was a little boy. There some of I'd say the deepest healing I've experienced has been being witnessed by another man and another man holding me in my deepest pain in the way that my father needed to hold me. There has been nothing more healing than a woman seeing the fullness, fullness of me and loving me through all of it, or choosing her her power and choosing to actually honour herself and walk away. That healed the part of me around the mother who who struggled to choose herself and experiencing that, looking back now, it's like, well, that that actually made me respect the feminine more as it's experiencing this. So some of the deepest, most profound healing I've actually experienced uh has been in it's always been in relationship. It's always been being witnessed by uh a healthy man or a healthy woman who can hold this safe loving presence for me to grieve the the little boy within me, not for them to hold my little boy, for me to hold my little boy while they hold a loving space for me. Yeah, yeah. So I'm not codependent on them needing to to I'm not using them to uh heal me.

SPEAKER_01 30:32

It's yeah, I I take it you're a big fan of Alison Armstrong.

SPEAKER_00 30:36

Yeah, I love her.

Choosing The Feminine And Modern Masculinity

SPEAKER_01 30:37

Yeah, these different archetype figures that you play you play to are really they're really constructive, they're really helpful actually. And I I I I never thought of how can I show up as a father to a friend? Because at times I should. How can I show up as a mother to a friend? Because at times I should. I love the friends that help me show up as a kid to myself. Thank you, friends. And it's quite nice to recognise that, like, I think again, I think a lot of men's work is is is dumbed down to the point of silliness, actually. Uh Stoke movement is in some capacities can be like that. It was it translates as we should be uniform, static, overly consistent. And uh and please challenge the shit out of me if you want this. But what I love is actually no, we're very fluid beings. And we will uh as we learn to to live, we learn to create freedom in ourselves, and that freedom looks like an elasticity of personality types, where for example, sake with one type, one friend, I need to be a mother to my friend right now, and I'm gonna show up as them. And then to another, I need to be a messer. Let's be messers, let's be kids together. Brilliant. Yeah, I sorry, not I need, but that's what feels best in this moment for me and for them. Yeah, and then another, actually, do you know what I don't need to be in this connection whatsoever. And I'm gonna be that more withdrawn person in this instance, and then bang, I'm a father figure. And I there are some days I've had where I've been like, wow, I feel like I've been 20 people today. Great. Whereas the me of let's say 10 years ago when I was very obsessed with biohacking and uniformity and staticness, it was just this this I had this idea that to be a good man was to be solid and consistent, and and I I think I missed a big point. Um can we I feel like I've just thrown a grenade into the middle of a thing. I'm really interested in your perspective of that. What do you feel when I share that?

SPEAKER_00 32:28

That was a great analogy. Couple things. Um most modern day masculinity stoicism content or uh you know stuff that you see out there on social media men who all I see through men who are so rigid in this way of being and in how masculinity's been uh portrayed by a lot of these like red pill stoicism uh men is they're fucking scared of the feminine, of deeply afraid of the feminine, of what a woman will reveal within them. And all I see are boys who lack this self-trust to open themselves to relationship because they probably did at one point and lost themselves or collapsed in relationship, or they opened their heart and they weren't chosen, and a woman was not available and maybe left them and they're heartbroken. So it's very fucking easy to be single and on your own, and it's so much easier to do that and just make money and keep working and keep driving like success and status and get super jacked and uh stay surface level and date all of these women. And I that that's very easy. That's very, very easy, and I'm also very aware that uh that there are gonna be parts of me that will come out when I open myself into partnership again. I'm fully aware of that, and I'm also not shy of that. I'm ready, I'm I'm like, I choose that. I I choose the feminine. A man who is able to fully choose the feminine is fully choosing life.

SPEAKER_01 34:34

I have this vision. I get I get I'm very vision-oriented, probably taking a few too many psychedelics. But when I'm sitting here, I had this, I had this really beautiful moment with a woman a while ago where she I she I was getting upset and I was like, Oh, I want to be strong. She was like, Oh darling, letting yourself go in this instance. That's what true strength is. Boom. I've never like unloaded like it. But I do think when you're talking about this feminine power that can hit you, like it's like a punch through your bullshit. It's like a an immediate return to that innocence, that vulnerability. And I love that note that you talked about on all these like let's say there is this guy culture where I've just got this, oh god, this image of very, very cheap, shitty, but overly priced. No, that sounds sounds almost ridiculous. Suits, crap cars, cigars, this kind of culture of like I'm I'm this single guy who all I really do is work. It's like, yeah, but you're isolated. Like I'm 38 and I feel ashamed that I'm not in a relationship. Like, I I sorry, it's it's like it goes beyond that. I actually feel ashamed I'm not a father. I feel ashamed I'm not like I'm not a husband. I like I can't look at myself in the mirror and stand up and be like, oh yeah, you've done great, Jamie. It's like, no, there's something, something internally wrong here. I I do think a lot of it is right at this stage, but I'm like, I don't um I think our I think it's a very weird thing when people prioritize career over and above family. When people will justify being a dick because that's what you do in business versus actually kindness and open-heartedness. And I don't think kindness is weak. Like I think kindness with strength and boundaries is as strong as it can get and as hard as it can get. But I I feel really um I have a level of real frustration societally when I'm like, I feel like I subscribe to the wrong message. It's like, why the fuck was I prioritizing my career so much when I really should have should have been understanding my heart, my soul, how to really communicate, how to deal with conflict, how to actually express myself. Like that, these these tools that I'm only really deep diving over the last 10 years in the whole coaching space, that was all just so like deprioritized to even think of that world was so soft and so silly. It was all it was questionable. Yeah.

Mission Versus Chasing: Discernment And Choice

SPEAKER_00 36:52

Um I think the the deepest initiation a man will ever go through is choosing a woman fully and choosing his mission fully at the same time. It's not one or the other, it's both. Uh they're definitely separate and connected kind of in the same way, but it's not my mission is more important than my woman or my family, or my family is more important than my mission. It's both. They are both important. And being able to choose both of those at the same time is like the greatest reflection of maturity and capacity and willingness to face and meet the deepest parts of yourselves. Because to choose someone fully, you have to open your heart to the unresolved pain of your childhood. To choose your mission fully, you have to deal with the unworthiness, all the different stuff and the wounds that or the lack of responsibility or capacity to be a leader. Like you'll meet the deepest parts of yourself in choosing both of them. And I feel that uh any man that's that's avoiding choosing a woman fully, he's also, yeah, like he's avoiding uh he's avoiding this deeper capacity that's actually going to invite him into. And yeah, like I'm fully aware that I'm not in partnership right now, but I I I choose I choose the feminine, right? And I'm very one thing I've actually worked through recently is I held shame around being so selective. But that's actually okay. It's actually a good. I think it's lovely.

SPEAKER_01 38:39

That's actually real self-care and love.

SPEAKER_00 38:41

Yeah. And uh it's why I'm patient. I'm like, I don't, I don't need it right now, but I choose it. Uh and and I have been, I've been opening myself and I've been, you know, allowing myself to really open my heart to connections, and but I'm patient to choose the right one that I know is deeply right for me, and I'm very selective, and that's okay. So uh, but it's it's it's dancing around both of them, it's dancing around choosing partnership and choosing uh your mission fully. And I I feel that uh when a man chooses both of them, he's he's choosing life fully.

SPEAKER_01 39:20

It's funny that you you talked about essentially discernment as perhaps something that requires, you know, it's it's patience and it might take time. I this moment I sat in for passing it, which was unbelievable. Like who I I could could not believe how healing it is just to literally sit with myself in silence and not move all the shit that came up. One of the biggest ones was with with regards to relationship that I wasn't as discerning as I should have been. That I was too urgent, that I like I wanted to make something work. And in actual fact, I sold myself short and often so often. And in you know, in wanting, I actually pushed away. And uh and I I'm a big believer that like it's you know, slow and steady wins the race. And I think I I'm starting to notice that anywhere where there's that like say that urgency, that neediness in me, it's never serving. And it may distractedly think, you know, you're bringing about something in the short term, but it's always knocking, let's say, something greater in the long term away. Yeah. Uh I find that painfully true.

The Pyramid: Self, Mission, Family

SPEAKER_00 40:21

One thing one thing that I've one thing I've recently uh worked worked through that's been quite real for me and challenging is the discernment between I felt that I didn't want to lean towards pursuing someone for a relationship because previously I couldn't trust myself in discerning is that from neediness or from masculine penetration. And I've recently just come to this realization of oh I cannot need it but I can still be penetrative with my energy and lead and be direct and be uh clear with what I want and speak what I want and and and push more towards it right because what I was doing was I'm gonna wait until someone meets me and if and and if I need to be more penetrative with my energy then I'm overextending myself and I need to you know they're not meeting me in partnership or relationship. And one thing that has changed dramatically for me now is like no I fucking choose this and I'm I'm going towards this and it's what energetically metaphorically it's not it's not this woman that I'm choosing and going towards it's I'm saying yes to the thing that I said I actually really wanted. And I'm choosing that fully and I'm going towards it I'm leaning towards it whether it's that person or not it's I'm choosing life fully and I'm ready to go down that road and not be chosen and deal with that grief. And from a place of I don't need it but from this masculine penetrative energy because like I said I was I was like reserved I was like oh wait until you meet me and we can perfectly meet each other in the middle but that's not how masculine and feminine dynamics work. Feminine is receptive if we we look at the sexual organs right that the feminine is is is the void it's the spaciousness it it wants it um you know it's it's waiting to be penetrated it's waiting to receive right I want to rattle your cage here yeah go for it like so this is the idea that like women love to be chased and men love to chase.

SPEAKER_01 42:47

Yes. I think it's wrong. Yeah and I I I like ha right can we do some good work I think uh when a man chases a woman uh oftentimes that man devalues you know girl it's like oh come on go away now but on the other side there's nothing more attractive than a man on his mission and I have seen uh some of my female friends jump over backwards to be with a man when he is so obviously in his mission. Yep and in those instances I see my friends as women come alive. There's so much more energy so much more fun running through them than the instances when let's say they're being courted. I kind of find this idea that yeah for the guy that knocks on a girl's door there's a devalue for the guy who's going on his mission girls will come to him and in actual fact girls like to chase it's different and it's completely counter narrative but in actual fact it's really really stimulating it's really really exciting and again in that kind of let's say power dynamic of a guy being like no no I'm on a mission and girl's like no no and suddenly the temptress comes out and suddenly there's a very very different energy that flows that was something that I I feel uh yeah I I feel that in let's say the era of all of this work if we can get away from the idea that we should be chasing and we should be running after but in actual fact if we can just concentrate on ourselves there's such a let's say uh such an energy that radiates from that and that few things are more attractive and that becomes that becomes the light that opens up the the tone. Yeah the discernment is in that is the word chasing yes compared to choosing okay okay so a man who just wants to attract by just being on his mission yes he's attracting women but he can't choose one and that's one thing I've heavily been battling with lovely so it's instead of okay I'm gonna I'm gonna chase this person to be penetrated with my and I I mean penetrating by fucking choosing that's that that's what I mean by actually uh allowing yourself to pursue from a place of I choose this and this is what I'm actually gonna lean towards uh because I've very much been caught of caught in that of like I'm focused on my mission and I'll attract a woman by being focused on my mission and that'll just come and it did right at some point I need to choose one of them yeah but that choice never came because I was like no I'm waiting for I'm waiting for the right one I was like that's actually never going to happen I have to decide I have to choose and how okay and in choosing and in yeah in connection I kind of think there's this idea that oh well somebody should be perfect and they can meet me but in actual fact in the very process of choosing someone and committing to someone that's such a metabolizer for issue that's such an inspiration to step up that that is the medicine in so many cases and that is what comes first and then being met comes second after that but without that realization you'll always be waiting to met and all be pretty fucking lonely.

SPEAKER_00 45:52

Yes and it's the willingness to choose someone and for it to not be right.

SPEAKER_01 45:59

Yeah so what comes up for me then when you're saying choose is I have this slightly you when when you you talked about like choosing your purpose and your partner at the same time the two are very intertwined I have this idea that in life we should choose ourselves first and foremost. I don't know some somebody might be like oh that's a fucking selfish but I actually think it's it I've I subscribe to this idea in in relationship I'll do me for you yes if you do you for me Jim Roe so cool. Yeah yeah and I I find that the better I focus in on myself the more true and authentic I am for everybody else around me really good. I I'm a big believer then that like our second priority should be our partners if we're not lucky enough to have kids there should be third priority fourth priority is work. Yep now initially when you spoke I was like oh mission but I I think what people seldom I sorry the mistake I fell into was thinking that my work was my purpose that my work was my mission. And it's like oh no no no it's so much more than that. I think we prioritize work too much. Hence why for me it's priority number four. I think work gets in the way oftentimes of people's best self-development people's relationships and an actual fact people parenting like I think it's a really sad thing that careers get in the way of parenting because certainly for the really conscious outstanding parents that I know they all talk about their kids as being the greatest teachers in their lives. And to let work get in the way of that silly because if kids are the greatest teachers they're going to help you up level and if they help you up level that'll reflect itself in your career.

Provision Beyond Money And Real Safety

SPEAKER_00 47:35

Yes. Yeah the the way I see it is a pyramid or triangle and at the very pinnacle the very top of the triangle is you self. The number one highest priority in your life should be you 100% because if you're a man who isn't prioritizing himself and lacks capacity and is it's all about giving and serving I think that's one of the biggest downfalls of a lot of men is we're providers in our nature. We want to give and serve and we will do it to the detriment of emptying our cup and trying to even continue to pour more when there's nothing left. Completely emptying the tank and just continuing to just give and just burning the candle at both ends and then no one's getting the like the any of us really like no one's really getting the fullness of us because we're pouring from such an empty cup. So it's actually one of the biggest things that men come back to when I work with them is they one of the biggest breakthroughs that happens all the time is they're like whoa like it's okay to be selfish it's okay for me to put me first and prioritize me. So 100% that's the top of the triangle and then the bottom two corners is is mission family not one or the other both so I I believe and the reason why I say mission is so important is that's not saying that you have to work 247 but it's saying that you are signed up to something that's greater than you you are signed up to serve and provide in a way that is greater than you in every man's heart is this burning desire to serve to provide to give and I believe every man has a some bigger mission that is beyond him that he was he's got a contract for if he's willing to sign it or not and I just know me personally in previous relationships when I didn't sign that contract to my mission that's something that was greater than me my relationship became my highest only number one priority and I neglected my mission I neglected that and and I collapsed and the man I am now when I decided to sign that contract and go, you know what I'm gonna prioritize this mission the man I've become along the way is it's phenotyp it's not your mission is not just your work it's what you're here to leave behind. It's your legacy it's it's it's uh it's it's what you want to build and every man wants to build he wants to build something in the masculine right the masculine wants to piece things together and put puzzles together and build shit make things happen and I know when a man is not fulfilling that part of his soul he's missing out on something and then he typically seeks to his relationship to feel that sense of happiness that he doesn't know that he's actually seeking that fulfillment that he doesn't really know he's seeking that he would get from a mission from something that's greater than him. So I I really believe that it's both but a man really has to prioritize his mission doesn't mean you have to work 247 means that you have a message that you want to leave to the world you want to give to the world.

Shame: Healthy Vs Toxic And Reactivity

SPEAKER_01 51:17

So what I'm kind of hearing there is that if you overly give yourself to a relationship and to be fair you just become a runaround Lboy whereas actually if you're focusing on your mission, your mission is going to challenge you. There's substance there's value there's pride in that and there's also evolution as you're committing yourself more and what there is is there's growth that a partner can see connect with enjoy. Whereas if you overly dedicate your yourself to a relationship there's actually going to be a contraction as you deprioritize other things in your life and so actually unfortunately there becomes less to love for the person that gives themselves to the relationship. But if there's parity with regards to a mission there's expansion there's more to love okay yeah I'm much I'm I'm curious about you but I know you've been in business you've done a bit of business and you've created some level of financial stability success in some way I don't actually know but I just assume I like where did you hear this I'm dead broke barrio um yeah I I'm not sure about you but I feel way more at ease and way more of a safe man in a relationship when I am in the position to actually provide yeah yeah I I I find it's very interesting I'm I'm I the odd things I'm interested in a friend will be like Jamie watched the match last week I'll be like what match yeah what are you even interested in I'm I'm actually studying cheating at the moment it's like what yeah I'm fascinated I found this really interesting correlation between guys who lose their position to provide in a relationship and then suddenly start cheating and there's there's there's patterns life is fascinating I find it it there's there's all these clues I kind of find a person is like a Seduko you know you like you fill in the numbers and suddenly you can suddenly see other lines and everything everything starts to make more sense um for me there are it let's say inherent traits of being a man uh you said or men we like to build fuck yeah it's amazing you put a group of 10 guys together they're all fighting you're like guys here's the challenge can you build this suddenly they're all getting on with each other and there's the leader and there's the joker um for me for me finding finding I I found self-worth in being able to provide so much more than just money like this work your work being able to like I sat with a a woman recently who uh who actually said I'm I'm uh I'm I'm not ready to to engage with you any further and I looked at her dead in the eyes and I was like are you not ready to engage or are you afraid and she was like yeah I'm afraid and I was like why why are you afraid ended up having this amazing conversation it wasn't the right connection but holy shit like we literally shared tear tears together and that for me to be able to get to hold someone to perhaps not not not just let a conversation go at a moment but actually go deeper in I find it's beautiful I like I love this work because it enables me to show up as a let's say a better me and a stronger me yeah for for those that I love and that's provision. So uh I think oftentimes as men were one dimensional when it comes to provision what does that mean? Oh can I look after the house can I look after the groceries the the the money yeah or can you just hold somebody through their shit can you see through PMS and can you can you recognize that sometimes people just need to say fuck you and I hate you and not mean it at all and can you be strong enough to let that down when it needs to be let down and hold accountability at other times as well this all fascinates me. Yeah and I find that if I go back to that that idea of provision relationally and how when somebody loses their position to provide oftentimes they'll stray it's oftentimes when they lose their capacity to actually hold their partner accountable um hold themselves accountable in relationship and connection um so yeah I I this all this all fascinates me and I would find that I I find there's few times when I feel such a sense of self-worth and capacity as I do when I get to provide and and it's nine times out of ten not in the financial way not in the fancy restaurant not in the fancy hotel but in actual fact to sit with somebody through their shit and work them through a process. Yes yeah one million percent yeah it's like everything I I talk about about yeah yeah yeah it's I I've been having all these like really interesting moments like even there was a part of me that used to you know you love giving and anyway I I was I was I was coming home from a night out and there was so obviously great sex on the cards and there was like a shall we go home and I could recognize my system I was like I feel so fried and I know I've got something up in the morning and it took every ounce inside of me to say I actually recognize I'm really tired. I really like you but I need to go home and sleep my younger self was like what are you doing but it was the oddest thing because she turned around and she was like wow you I respect you so much more and I was like I actually feared she was going to be like I don't want to even talk to you but she was like I can see that you you care for yourself. Yeah I can see that you have respect for what you show up for. I also can see you have respect for me that you're not gonna show up with a lack of presence she was like so I'm gonna go home and that feels cool but when are we meeting again I thought that was so interesting that like the younger me would have like screwed up my plans the next day showed up at 50 40% and actually squandered that connection through let's say that overly needy urgent energy that we kind of touched on in the earlier conversation this more patient self I'm finding is like a cure and a medicine relationally and personally that I yeah I find myself frustrated I'm like why didn't I why wasn't I aware of this 20 years ago and I I love getting to sit down and have a chat with yourself.

Spread Activation And Implicit Memory

SPEAKER_00 57:53

I I love that we get to record this I always find whenever I do these podcasts I do them very selfishly by the way I feel like a little fanboy here being like this is great to chat but exactly as you said the joy of getting to share that and perhaps like as I said if me 20 years ago got to have a listen to this and got to tune into that that of like no Jamie don't chase your short run opportunity look after yourself first and foremost that that actually is what builds safety that's what builds a whole lot of fun as well down the line yeah yeah man yeah there's so many different ways that we create and provide safety for the feminine and uh yes there's the the it's not about the material stuff but it's being in the position to go I've got this like if you need to birth a child I've got this you don't have to worry about a fucking thing like I think there's a there's a real and I know not everyone's gonna be in that position but I I I think like that's to be in that position as a man like it's uh it's provided me a lot of ease in in dating and and relating and opening my myself because I'm like I'm cool I've got it like you don't it doesn't even fucking cross my mind splitting the bill it's like not even a thing right it's like I just I want to take care of you so you don't have to think about anything you can just be in your flow like that's sorry yeah when you said it doesn't even cross my mind by splitting the bill I was like oh my god please tell me you're not a bill splitter like my right hand was meant to come straight through here where did that end I don't know where that came from yeah yeah it's pathetic yeah it's so pathetic yeah yeah even with my um even with uh for example one of my best mates his partner was here in Bali with a couple of her friends and I took him out for dinner I w we caught up it was so beautiful to see them and purely friendship like all of Them, but it was like, I'm like, I want to treat you women, right? And it was just this I I I'm not even partnership, but I I want to take care of you. Is this in shelter? It was. This is so funny. Oh yeah, you were there.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:11

I was there, and I was looking over. I was like, oh my god, Ryan dates two women simultaneously. What a boss. Okay, so they were friends.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:20

Yeah, yeah. But being in that position is is uh I think there's a real sense of safety and security that you have within yourself. It's like a real confidence, it's like I can take care of things. Uh and then absolutely there's the relational safety, one million percent.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:36

Oh god, sorry. There's like vomit coming up inside me. I I'm so angry with a younger self of me that like I actually remember insisting with the girl being like, of course we split a bill 50-50. And it's like, what was I thinking? Like, what how how short-sided, how silly. And I I I think it's I think it's odd this, let's say, this woke culture that is like saying, Oh, we know so bet so well. And it's it's actually disregarding like centuries, thousands of years of traditions that actually they stack up, they make sense with this idea that no no we know best in the now. Yeah, and there's so much shallow thought that has brought about such deep wounds. And I I I I and silliness and this this kind of idea of of almost couples competing with each other in their careers and and thinking it's so in it's so strong and so independent to be 50-50. It's like, no, relationshipships are dynamic, yeah. And and and and how so superficial to think of money as such a high priority, let's say, in the provision, it's like no no, it's about so much more. Can I ask? I I'm I'm really curious to ask you, as I'm almost like, oh, here's my wound, here's that wound. You're dealing with men en masse, like hundreds, hundreds of thousands, millions. What are like if you were to be like, oh yeah, here that here are like the five stereotypical wounds that I'm dealing with that are like just everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:05

What comes to mind? Uh two would be shame and abandonment. So I the the shame wound is the the toxic shame from childhood. So we have healthy shame and we have toxic shame. Healthy shame is actually a mechanism that we have that supports us in a way, and we need it. Because what healthy shame does is it actually creates a pause when maybe you've done something that's in alignment, uh, that's not in alignment. And healthy shame creates a pause of like, oh, that doesn't feel good, and it creates this pause of being able to stop and reflect on your values and morals. That's healthy shame. It creates this pause to look at the behavior that's just played out, yeah, and what's just, yeah, whatever's just happened. It's it's a pausing effect. Toxic shame is when it's no longer about the behavior and it's about our personality, it's about us.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:08

So toxic shame is uh I haven't made a mistake, I am a mistake. I haven't made a fuck up, I am the fuck up. It becomes about who we are, it's internalized, it's a reflection of who we are. So how does defeat us? Yeah, so how that shows up in relationship is when your woman brings to your awareness how you could do something better or show up better. You see that not as an opportunity of I could better my behavior, but you see it as an attack on your nervous system that there is something wrong with who you are inherently. Or if she's not okay emotionally, we see that as an attack. If you have unresolved toxic shame, that she's obviously not okay. It's because of me. It's because there's something wrong with me. I'm not safe enough, I'm not good enough. I'm not so this unresolved shame then leaves a man constantly seeing his woman's emotions or her expression as a threat that there's something wrong with him. So what he's doing is he's actually making about him, taking it away from actually just holding a safe space for her. So that's how like this toxic shame shows up in relationship. And it's probably one of the deepest wounds that I work with is how this reactivity, dismissiveness, shutting down, closing off, uh, stonewalling, all of this is this shame of your truth, what you're bringing to me, this truth is an attack on my nervous system. And my nervous system can't deal with it. And the only way I know how to deal with it is the strategies I used as a little boy to protect myself. And some people know those strategies as attachment styles. Yeah, there's so much more beneath that.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:49

Uh sorry, that that thank you for sharing the term healthy shame. Because earlier on, I said, Oh, I'm ashamed about this, I feel shame about that. It's so constructive. Yes, it's exactly as you shared. It's like helping me point out I take a pause in certain areas of my life and introduce refinement. And then the differentiation of hey, toxic shame is when you're essentially it's defeated. It's like, oh no, I this is who I am. How many times have I heard guys being like, This is who I am? It's like no, no, no, who you are is completely up for grabs. Um you said shame, and the the other word was uh abandonment.

Abandonment Roots And Attachment Anxiety

SPEAKER_00 1:05:24

Abandonment. So uh but on on that uh on the shame piece, I think it's because this is a huge thing men men struggle with is the shame that they're not good enough, they're not worthy. Uh you said you felt shame about you know not having a family yet. Only honourable men experience shame. Because if you feel shame that you're not showing up in a certain way, that tells me that you fucking care about it and you want to show up better. So shame only shows up in honorable men because if he didn't feel shame, he wouldn't give a fuck about the person. He wouldn't give he wouldn't care about his partner.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:09

So the fact that he's feeling shame when his woman brings to him how he could show up better tells me that he really cares about her and he really wants to be a safe space for her. And the shame is the pause for him to actually look at the behavior and go, you know what, like that's you know, this isn't an alignment with how I truly want to be showing up for you. But when it's internalized, we see it as an attack and we don't see it as the opportunity of I can grow here. We see it as an opportunity of I need to protect and close off and protect myself from this shame that's been triggered. I'm curious, have you ever heard of, and it we'll speak about abandonment, but have you ever heard of um spread activation theory? No, yes, and I've heard a lot of things. So tell me more. So spread activation theory is let's say, for example, I see this microphone, right? This podcast microphone. In this moment, I see a microphone. Unconsciously, I'm also reminded of unconsciously, every single microphone I've ever seen in my entire life or been associated with.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:14

So unconsciously, that's happening in the background.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:17

Yeah. So spread activation theory is basically you're not only just experiencing the thing in this moment, but you're experiencing the lifetime of things that you've experienced that are similar to this thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:30

So when a woman brings to your awareness how how you could show up better and it comes across as like critical in a little way, triggers every other. It's not just about that moment, it's about every other moment you felt your mother criticize you or your father criticize you for not doing a good enough job. And this is why the reaction that we have in that moment far exceeds what the moment is actually bringing up.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:51

So when the reaction is hysterical, the issue is hysterical. Yes. Yeah, it's a great way of putting it. Yeah. I I do a lot of role play with clients, and I'm I'm I I joke, I'm like, are you ready to do a year's worth of therapy in a session? They're like, what do you mean? Spread activation theory speaks to exactly this yeah. That in one moment, similar to all those prior moments that carry such issue and weight, you can generationally heal. You can bring about a healing in that moment that travels back through time to all those prior moments and brings peace to them. Right? Again, this idea, everything's interconnected. It's the Sadhuk board. That for me, that's fascinating. Yeah, it thank you. It also spread activation theory, it makes it speaks to it beautifully. Yeah, yeah. I I find that there's so many moments with uh predominantly in in in dating. Rejection is never just that rejection, it reminds me of every rejection I've ever experienced. Yes, oh my god, even bringing the words up, I can feel it, it's horrible.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:53

Yeah, yeah. I think um, well, male, I like to explain this because men they you know their their partner is maybe bringing these things to them, and they're like, Yeah, you know, yeah, I know I overreact sometimes, but it's it's like really understanding where it comes from and why it's important to understand triggers and what I just shared, the spread activation theory and like these core wounds and stuff. I really love to paint the picture of how it shows up today and the mirror of how it's showing up today and you know where it first began, the original pain. And the way I like to describe that and how it's triggered in this moment is our conscious brain operates on time past, present, future. So consciously I know that I am a grown man. Consciously, I know that I have a job, I have responsibilities, I consciously know all these things in the present moment. I consciously am aware of what might happen in the future, and I'm consciously aware of what happened in the past. My childhood, maybe some things that happened, you know, the life that I've lived, right? Consciously, but that is only five to ten percent of us. Subconsciously, unconsciously, is the 90 to 95% of us it doesn't operate on a timeline. It has no fucking idea the difference between when you were seven years old and you were criticized by your mother, or your mother was controlling you, or she pulled love away from you because you did something. It can't tell the difference between that and right now in this moment when your woman did the same behavior. Yeah, so it triggers the same response and the unresolved emotion or shame or fear of abandonment of this little child in this moment, and this is where we then regress back into that original pain. This is implicit memory, it's our body's emotional memory. In in an instant, we regress back to a childlike state. So brings up the spread activation theory. It's like in these moments, in like relationally, it's we're not dealing with who you are today. We're dealing with the little boy, we're dealing with the lifetime of experiencing these moments of of um of disconnection in relationship.

Grieving The Original Pain To Heal

SPEAKER_01 1:11:24

Yeah, that makes complete sense. For me, when I think of the brain, let's say, as like um a live system, and a learning, a pattern, a thought, a process was carved in 10, 20, 30 years ago, and it's still live, it's still running. And every moment where perhaps that same instance comes up and it falls into the same category, it solidifies that little bit more. But at the same time as well, every moment is an opportunity to correct and update. And I I yeah, I I I I used to get very angry. I could hear Joe Dispenser sitting over you being like, Yes, the 95-5. Yeah. I I I used to get very frustrated with Joe Dispenser because I felt he overcomplicated stuff. I love hearing you share that. It's simple, it's so simple. Of course, something that happens in your childhood that's eventful is going to carve, almost pattern itself into your brain in terms of a behavior. And of course, every similar situation is going to look like that, bring up those fears, and you're going to react similarly, even though perhaps it was a little bit different and there was a difference for change. And it's only when we grow that little bit more conscious and slow ourselves down that we can meet moments in their present and perhaps deal with them more presently. And if we do, if if we manage to come across a similar situation to those of old and we go about it differently and it works out better for us, we upgrade that thought. We we we bring a subconscious or automatic process into the present and we see it better serve ourselves. So we update our way of being. So, like what coaching is is essentially checking in to be updated. It's like a software update in the simplest fashion. Um, can I share an odd visual for you? We are running so over time, but if you're happy, I'm happy. Yeah, um I had this moment again, very visual. God, I'm over chatting relationally. But I found I I was a few years ago, I found somebody that I I I thought was my wife. And the first time we made love, I had the weirdest visual. I had all these other women that not because I wanted to, but just because I was silly and and and and and innocent in some regards, but there had been messy connections, there'd been hurt. And the weirdest thing is that when we made love that time, I went to a different planet. I was not there, I was up in the stars. I could see the two of us, we were literally holding hands, and I was circled by all those prior lovers, all those prior connections. And it's like in that instant, all those issues were metabolized, and not just for me, for them. I could see them saying, Thank you, you dick. You you were shit to me in this instance, but I can see you learned, and I can see that learning actualized in this instance, and because of that learning, because of the good that's come from that challenging circumstance of bad, you've cleared the karma. It was so interesting. So I I I massively believe you we talked about relationships so much. I think I really believe in this idea of healing, sexual healing, this idea that few things heal more than when you correct an issue, when you share, when you actualize a learning of old that was hard-earned. Yeah, and that moment solidified that thought. That that took me. I was like, I remember afterwards, I was like, I want to study this. What the hell? And it took me into this whole idea of being, and I I I love that when you talked about toxic shame, yeah. You what I heard is that somebody thinks they are as they are, they forget that they can update, they forget that they can make right on their wounds of old. I think we think that think of that. We think, oh, a failure's a failure, a mistake's a mistake. It is unless you learn from it. And if you learn from it, that means some good came from it. And if you can put that learning to work, that means more and more good from what comes. And that actually means that perhaps actually there was worth in what happened, perhaps there's value, perhaps there's justification. It's an interesting one. I find yeah, well, we like to look at things a bit too singularly and linear linearly. When we kind of think of it a bit more multidimensional, it's life is fascinating. Um, yeah. I have to ask you about the it was shame and abandonment. Abandonment. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Is that like self-abandonment as in our I'm just curious, yeah. I wasn't expecting you to put those two so close together.

Imperfect Parents, Secure Bonds, And Humanity

SPEAKER_00 1:16:04

Um abandonment actually somewhat roots beneath shame. One of the deepest fears, or the deepest fear we have as as a human is that we won't be accepted. It's actually been studied that we are innately born, and it's wired into our psyche, that when we come out of the womb, we're gonna be met with loving, warm parents. That is wired into us. And as mammals, as humans, we need we're solely dependent on our parents to be emotionally and physically available to meet our needs, to fulfill that expectation of when I come out of the womb, I'm gonna have a loving, warm family. Because if I don't, I die. If I don't have loving, warm parents who can meet me and nurture me and meet my dependency needs, I will fucking die. I'll be left on my own and I'll die. So we're pretty much ready-born with this somewhat of a uh it's like wired into us that if we're abandoned, neglected, left on our own, that we will die. Like we know that. But what happens is when a parent is got their own shit going on, they've you know got their own trauma, their own wounds, their work is more of a priority than their child. This child can feel that love is used as a tool of manipulation to get it to do things and behave a certain way or to perform or to achieve. This child can feel that that love is used as manipulation, and it can it feels that there's no real solid bedrock and foundation of love and support no matter fucking what. And when we don't feel that, and we're looking at parents who are emotionally disconnected from themselves, that there's a there's a core piece in childhood is called mirroring, and we're looking to our parents to reflect back to us that we're safe and that we're loved, and that in this moment they're able to meet our needs. And if not, we're left with this wound, this deep fear that I'm looking into an empty mirror. There's nothing that can reflect back to me my safety. And that over a small period of time, over a long enough period of time, it starts developing this deep fear of abandonment. If this person is not available to meet me in the way that I need, I will die. And this is when we then get into adult relationship and we're still stuck in that programming, we're still stuck in that state of consciousness. The simple act of opening your heart to a relationship triggers the original blueprint of that little boy who feels that if you're not available all of the time to meet my needs, or if you're not okay, I will be left and abandoned, and I'm gonna die. So that child comes out in relationship. So this is where the anxious, insecure, nice guy starts playing out, where he is just anxious, deeply anxious, and he needs constant reassurance, needs constant validation. He starts neglecting what he needs to be deeply connected to himself because it's more important to be having this love and connection with his partner when she's not available. Right? Maybe she's at work or she's got something going on. He'll be constantly checking his phone, he'll be constantly uh his nervous system will be in this wide state of like looking for his attachment figure. This this source, his source of love and attachment. So I I put out a reel the other day. About someone who suffers from this deep abandonment trauma, time on their own is a dysregulating experience. Because they need their partner to be in the room and available to feel safe and secure. So when their partner isn't there, it's actually dysregulating for their nervous system. So spending time on their own is it's not a it doesn't fill their cup. It actually drains their cup because they're in this constant state of hypervigilance. So they they constantly need their partner's assurance and availability to actually feel safe and secure.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:39

And can I ask pulling back from that at a step that's at the very heart of let's say where one will compromise themselves for the safety of the relationship, one will people please, one will lack boundaries, and one will deprioritize their life, and one will deteriorate in all those respects because they're putting that that that connection and not just necessarily with the partner, could be with a friend, could even be still with a family member as the highest priority.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:14

So I shared with you when my partner, that woman I loved more than anything, she was exactly that, right? When she wasn't available, my nervous system was anxious. I was in this constant state. I'd be sitting in a cafe and I'd be like unconsciously looking for her. Yeah, constantly checking my phone. But beneath that is this little boy going, Where's mom and where's dad? They're not available. And there's a video you can go watch called the still face uh experiment. And it shows you this that a mother is loving and caring and she's emotionally here, she's connected to herself, and the child is feels safe to explore and to play with the blocks in front of it. Yeah, and then she turns around and then she turns back around with a still face, no emotion. And the child starts going, like, what is going on? starts touching mum's face, starts looking around like this, starts yelling and screaming, being hysterical, and then dissociates and just goes numb as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:15

Yeah, and just goes That was haunting to watch. Yes, and I remember watching it and thinking, like, this feels like torture. Yeah, and then actually to be like, oh, well, that's going on. Yes. That like that stupid, oh, if you hear a baby cry, let it cry. Fuckers. Like so, I get so angry in this respect. I was I I I uh I went to boarding school 12 to 18. Yeah, an old boys Jesuit boarding school. You can hear the disdain in my voice. I that idea of like to be put away, to be distant, it it it it uh it brings up such wounds. Everything that you shared, I've experienced post-breakups. Yes. That like I literally that that I could see myself sitting in a coffee shop looking right.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:58

I'm looking for this attachment figure, but it's you've regressed, right? You're looking for this, your sole source of connection, just as a child, and you can't focus on anything else, like you're in a state of survival in that moment, looking for your attachment figure, and you can't relax, you can't think about anything else apart from where is this person, and when are they available?

SPEAKER_01 1:23:21

So what's your healing on that one? Because for me, I it petrified me actually. I could see I the nervousness running through me, the the fragility. Um I actually I I I I was over here in Bali at the time, I ran ran back home. Uh and I I I I found there was too many distractions here. I just sat at home, and I sat at home for about two, three months, quite isolated, but I was like, I need to find peace and loneliness, and I thought that was my cure. Yeah, like don't distract yourself with work, don't distract yourself with entertainment, don't distract yourself with food, don't distract yourself with body like bodybuilding or whatever. No, yeah, sit through this. That was my like it was felt it was very harsh. I think it worked. What do you do?

SPEAKER_00 1:24:06

Yeah, um, yeah, I was I'm kind of I think we're we're going in a good direction. It's like we've painted the picture of you know where men, a lot of men are at today. We've spoken a little bit about that, then we're going to the core wounds, speaking about the core wounds and how they show up, and then we're gonna get into how they how we actually work with this, and something I'm very deeply passionate about because it's something that was missing for me. As I shared, I was in that relationship and I was so deeply anxious, and I needed her to be available all of the time for me to meet my needs for me to feel secure. And I wasn't okay, like if I wasn't getting my needs met sexually, emotionally, it was all about me. It was fuck this. Like, I can't live if you're not meeting me in the way that I need. So when she left me, because fuck that would have been exhausting for her to love someone who is so needy.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:04

As you're sharing this, I'm seeing an an ex in a completely different light, and I'm like, babe, sorry. Yeah, yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:10

Um, when I got home and she left me, my nervous system. Remember, I shared at the beginning, it was like a I needed my ego needed the break, a real heavy heartbreak to actually crack open. When she left me, no word of a lie, I thought I was dying. I when she left, my nervous system shut down. I was laying on the bathroom floor, I was vomiting, I was convulsing, like in these, these, these shakes, I was in a full tremor response, a trauma response where my body was tremoring and in this in this whole process. For about four days, uh, there were nights where I remember one night specifically, I kept saying I couldn't sleep at all. And I just kept saying to myself, if there is something out there, please give me the strength and the courage to make it through tonight. I just kept saying that, kept saying every night for like four nights, and I was just in this state. Now, the reason why it was so intense is like she just a partner broke up with me and left me. But the little boy within me, like we just spoke about spread activation theory, we just spoke about implicit memory, our body doesn't know the difference. The little boy within me, when mum and dad broke up when I was seven years old, and mum left, and we were left with this broken family, this hole in the family, and the little emotional connection that I had is now even further away, right? Uh it brought me back to the moment when I was seven years old, I was laying on my bedroom floor, and mum had another partner come in, and I was so confused, and I was so fucking scared, I thought I was dying. Right? That that that abandonment, that this my sole source of love, my family, has just been completely stripped away from me, and I'm left on my own. And that's what came up in that moment. So my nervous system literally thought it was dying in that moment, but what it was happening was uh I regressed back to the unfinished business from my childhood and was able to create safety for that little boy within me to let him know like hey, you're you're okay, like you're fit, you're here, you're alive, you're breathing, you're not dead. And it was as real as that. Like I had to keep reminding myself, you're here, you're alive, you're breathing, you're not dead. I couldn't tell the difference.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:47

It's what's coming up as you're sharing this moment is I so very similar, let's say, relational conditions and a breakup. And I remember I got insomnia similarly as well. But I remember one night I couldn't stop crying, and all I could think about was my mum dropping me off at a crash when I was three.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:06

Like I can remember the shopping centres, the Black Rock shopping centre, it has a waterfall running through it and a crash underneath it. I could as I was going to sleep that night, I could feel, I could hear the waterfall, I could feel there's a cool air that comes off the waterfall, and I could there was also a stink in that room. But it was all so real. And I I remember chatting to my mum afterwards, and like I kind of had to laugh because I was like, Jesus, I'm going through this breakup, and all I can think about is you guys dropping me off in a crash, or then all like I was dropping off the board screw, all this stuff. Shh, it was so haunting, yeah, so hard as well. Because do you know what? Like, you could probably deal with the breakup if it's just the breakup, but it's not the breakup, it's like every time you felt abandoned. Yes, the same way, like the rejection is comical. I've I've had a few nights where I've drunk a bit too much and and uh ended up in awful heaps of these, like I'd say uh like doom rejection doom holes or something where it's like every hint of it, yeah. So, yeah, so how how do you work through that then?

SPEAKER_00 1:29:08

Yeah, it one thing you mentioned there, it you know, it brings up all the other times that you were rejected or abandoned. What it also brought up within me was this flood and this smack in the face of every other time I actually abandoned and neglected myself. That was the most painful thing because I was like, I what have I just done? Like, I I've just spent two years completely abandoning and neglecting myself because of this fear of facing exactly what I'm experiencing right now, which is this fear of feeling this pain that I'm gonna die. Um how we how we actually heal, because there's a lot out there around attachment theory, understanding anxious, avoidant attachment. I was deeply anxious in that relationship. And in some other relationships, I've been deeply avoidant. We we swing between all different styles.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:04

I cannot bear when somebody's red attached and they're like, oh, I'm a I'm avoidant. It's like, no, you have experienced that in the past. Yes, you are not like the way people will lay label themselves, even like ADHD, are are they on the the spectrum? It's like, ah, there's more to this. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:23

Yeah. Our attachment styles are simply the coping mechanisms and strategies that we learned to develop and that we developed over time to get our needs met, to gain closeness and connection, or to push it away to protect our heart. That's simply it's what it is, right? But at the root of all of it is protecting yourself from the original pain, the original grief of the loss of not having your needs met in certain moments in childhood. Yeah. Do we need to stop or I don't want to stop? Yeah, I there's yeah, we're almost there.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:03

Um let's just say it. Yeah, guys, we need 10 minutes. Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:11

Um I was prime example. I was on a uh on a coaching session this morning with a client, and he had this deep, deep wave of grief coming up, and he's like, I've just been so deeply anxious. And when I when I'm anxious, I I clench my toes, I clench my fists, and I just I tense. And I was like, interesting. Okay, so we went into that, we started noticing the sensations, the clenching, and he went straight back to the moment he was in the car with his mother, and he was like, I remember the shoes I was wearing, I was wearing these Jordans, I was wearing this, I had this hat on, I was coming home from basketball training, and I was just so deeply anxious, and I was just sitting in the car with mum, and we kept going deeper into this, and he just broke, absolutely broke, and he was just crying and just grieving and wailing and and weeping and just letting it out and feeling it. And I asked him, What in this moment did you lose? Because when a parent is not available to meet us in the way that we need, there is something that we lose. So in that moment, he lost a safe parent. He lost a part of himself, he lost a sense of safety, he lost connection, he lost a mother. And embedded in that is grief. Is in the losses that we experienced in childhood that we haven't fully felt. So this was him finally grieving the loss of his emotionally unavailable mother, which caused this deep anxiousness because he just needed someone who was safe, a safe space, a mirror to reflect back to him a safe nervous system to ground him for him to feel whatever it was that caused him to be anxious. But he didn't have that, so he tightened up and he became the strong one that didn't let anyone in or let anyone support him. He had to be the strong one that held it all together and it left him deeply anxious. So until we actually grieve the original pain of the boy, of the wounded inner child, and then grieve the life that we've experienced, the pain, the hurt that we've caused from that place, until we have that lived experience in our body and grieve it and feel it, nothing will really change. And we'll continue to walk and bring that grief into every relationship and every situation with us.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:45

Wow. Again, visual, but like I was in the car with my mum when I was young, I was probably eight, seven or eight, and I spilt popcorn. And my mum, I was in the front seat with my mum on the right, and I poured the popcorn, and my mum turned around and went, Oh, for God's sake, and went to pick up the popcorn, and we drove straight into a lamppost. And it's funny because you know, that's that's a complete honest, innocent mistake on her side, yeah. But at the same stage, there's a level of outsourcing my safety to my mum. Yeah, and in that moment, you know, my mum's so sweet and lovely, and she's just got distracted, and it's a complete accident. But in actual fact, what what is going on is as a kid we outsource our safety to our parents. Yes, and at a moment like that, where they drop their guard, an honest mistake, but in actual fact, unfortunately, the message comes in of you aren't safe outsourcing your safety. You have to take greater care for yourself, and so there is a loss of innocence in that moment whereby I will never be so carefree in a car again, especially with her, even though this is innocent, even though it wasn't meant, even though she's you know as caring as can be and everything, but that moment is a traumatic event, yeah. After which I will I will develop a level of hyper-vigilance in moments like that, and uh, let's say an over-exertion of energy and a greater stress in in that in in times of let's say responsibility. And I I I will it will be unconscious until a level of consciousness is brought on it, let's say this moment right now, where I can remind myself when I'm perhaps driving that Jamie, you're driving, but like relax a little bit. Yeah, it's fine. Yeah, you are hyper-vigilant because of that moment, which is 31 years ago, yeah, it's okay. Yeah, and as I feel that it's like actually I I I'm I'm fascinating. You said this tensed sensation. I find if you want to quickly find trauma and somebody just you'll see it's it's tense tension, yeah. Yeah, and body work. I'm I'm obsessed with body work because I find we find those places of tension very, very quickly, and that release sometimes is all that's needed.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:12

Yeah, body's always communicating to us, always. And yeah, what one thing I would say about that situation is you know, if I was working with a client, I would say, beautiful, like for the next couple months, every time you drive in your car, I want you to imagine you're a little boy sitting next to you in the car. Yeah, right, and you get to recreate that experience and and and reclaim him. Um, but a very similar situation uh with a car, which is interesting, funny, and how this can play out is my partner would be on the phone, on her phone scrolling. It'd be a Sunday morning, we're going to get a coffee, it's a nice day, she's on her phone scrolling or talking to someone. It would trigger the absolute shit out of me. What the fuck are you doing? What could be more important than me in this moment? This beautiful Sunday morning, what could be more important? Why who are you talking to? Why are you on your phone? Like, why can't we just enjoy the the the morning? But what it was actually triggering within me was in that moment, she's now my father. The person I love more than anything, even though we're spending time together, there is something more important than me, which was his work all of the time. Even though we'd be spending time together, he'd maybe be on a work call or he'd be doing something about work, right? So again to a relationship, and she's on her phone, and it triggers, right, this this uh lack of safety that I didn't have as a little boy, so there was deep grief in that. There was this deep grieving journey of actually feeling and processing the the moments where this innocent little boy just wanted his father, and his father wasn't emotionally available to meet him in the way that he needed, and embedded in that is deep loss, and until we grieve the loss, like you just shared, the loss of innocence we stay contracted attention, contracted around that original pain.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:10

Can I ask about the my mom in that situation, right? Because my mom is as like as sweet as can be, and that's an honest, genuine accident.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:19

Um, and with the weight of let's say effect, it can be like it's almost like like there's no like there. There's a kind of like I don't want to be pointing a finger. Yeah, there's and here's where my head moves that an actual fact, we're all gonna traumatize each other at some point or another. And oftentimes it might not be about us, it might be something else, like the example you shared. So we shouldn't take it too personally.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:45

Yeah, and there's a real important part of the healing journey where you actually need to blame your parents and point the finger a little bit. Because until we do, we're actually continuing to disregard the experience of what that little boy had, which was I needed my mother in that moment and I didn't have her. We're not blaming, projecting, fuck you, whatever, but it's like actually, no, I needed that. That's genuinely what I needed. And until we acknowledge what we genuinely needed, right, we're actually perpetuating this wound, and we're actually uh dismissing and minimizing this little boy's experience even more. So it's really important that we actually really acknowledge that the pain and the hurt that was caused. And then I think perfectly to sum this up is no one escaped childhood without a few cuts. We're all we've all experienced something that's that's caused some form of lack of safety, and it's a beautiful thing as well, because it shapes us into who we are.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:42

So that's the key. It's it's yeah, it seems like there's this weight of perfection that we're all putting on each other's to be so perfect. And it's like, no, in actual fact, sometimes the greatest gift you can give someone is a bit of shit or a bit of an issue.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:57

We talked, we talked too much to be about the idea of like a challenging. Breakup and I got a great breakup, and and perhaps if you're lucky, you'll have several. Uh, and then a matter of fact, it's like there's this idea again. I think woke culture will instill it of this like ideal perfect parenting. It's like, don't be so naive, perhaps you're actually robbing them of the wounds that would serve them so well in life. Yeah, similarly speaking, in relationship, as much as I was like, Oh god, perhaps I showed up so bad with ex-partners, it's like, no, Jamie, perhaps you were actually the medicine that they needed to progress. Don't be too a hard on yourself or b let others be hard or be hard on others, yeah. Because we never actually fully know the full value of what comes until it comes full circle.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:34

Yeah, yeah. And the need to be perfect is typically the toxic shame of the parent. Right? Yeah, it's been studied in itself.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:48

Yeah. Sorry, wow. Wow, okay, right.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:51

Yeah, yeah. To be perfect is to disregard your humanity. Which means you're avoiding your shame. There's a reason you're avoiding it because of it's toxic, and you're avoiding it because what you feel about yourself when it comes up. So you're actually disregarding your humanity, and this is where even me, there was a stage where I'm like, I have to be the perfect safe man. I'm disregarding my humanity, I'm being this perfect safe man from this place of I feel shameful if I fuck up. So it's understanding that if you get it right 70% of the time, fuck yeah, you're doing amazing. In attachment theory, it's been studied that a parent only has to be attuned to their child 27% of the time, and it develops secure attachment. That's it.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:44

Ryan, you dick, you're too smart, you're too like fun to chat to. I want to like analyze every little bit of my life here with you. Thank you. Like thank you. We're great to chat, lovely to chat, and uh hopefully we'll chat again. Thank you, brother. Pleasure. Yeah, thank you.