The University of Life & Edward Dangerfield

What if your story could be read through the way you breathe?

In this deeply grounded conversation, we sit down with a master facilitator who has spent over 13,000 hours observing human breath — and through it, the nervous system, hormonal patterns, and the unconscious loops we can’t see from the inside. The journey moves from early childhood survival strategies and an avalanche-triggered PTSD spiral to a profound recalibration through surrender, attunement, and the slow, precise art of completing unfinished reflexes.

We explore safety as the first medicine. Why rapport consistently outperforms technique. Why real validation heals more than silver linings. And what becomes possible when a steady, regulated presence meets a body that’s finally ready to let go.

You’ll hear how contraction becomes identity — tight shoulders, shallow breathing, constant vigilance — and how breathwork, somatic awareness, and compassionate holding begin to unwind the loop. We look at early development and how the years from zero to seven shape movement and breath, echoing later as burnout, people-pleasing, or the unconscious pull to recreate familiar pain in the hope of resolving it.

From practical cues to deeper philosophy, we cover how to read posture and breath mechanics, recognise fidgets as signals of discharge, and work with rage as a protector of boundaries — without shaming it shut. We unpack the nuance of breath retentions, where diminishing returns appear, and why different bodies require different doorways.

Intimacy emerges as a classroom of its own: co-regulation, resonance, and the quiet power of a regulated nervous system transmitting enough safety for the next breath to arrive. Forgiveness and boundaries are explored as twin practices — releasing without self-abandonment — while memory returns not as overwhelm, but as the body gently retires amnesia and allows a fuller life to emerge.

If you’re looking for grounded healing rather than hacks, deep safety instead of quick fixes, and breath practices that meet you exactly where you are, this conversation will land.

Subscribe, share it with someone who could use a steadier breath, and leave a review with the moment that shifted something for you.

Transcript

Setting The Stage: Master Of Breath

SPEAKER_00 0:00

So, Edward, welcome to the University of Life. Thank you, bro. I um I want to kind of hang you out to dry in my introduction. Is that okay? Yeah, sure. Okay. As far as I'm concerned, you are one of the most interesting and outstanding people when it comes to breath breath work in the world.

SPEAKER_02 0:12

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 0:13

God. That's so cool that you can just say thank you and accept that, right? With this beautiful smile. It's true. Thank you. How many hours have you done?

SPEAKER_02 0:22

Yeah, uh like practice with clients, probably around 13,000 hours of watching humans breathe. It's funny.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

I had to ask you that because I remember when we first met, you said it was around 10,000. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:33

Wow. And then also in training, I run um, I don't know, 14, seven-week practitioner trainings. Usually like about between six and twelve people per training.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

Okay, so I have to ask, what do you learn when you do 13,000 hours of people in breath work when you're teaching teachers? What's like the um yeah, what's the obvious take home? Because my my gut instinct, I look at you and I have this dream to be able to read someone's personality, somebody's trauma from their breath. Like literally just watch the way their posture is, watch the way their eyes are, watch the way they breathe, and know where they're at. My gut instinct is that you could probably do this to a good degree, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:16

Yeah, like quite a high degree, like the ability to sense what is going on inside someone's physiology, nervous system, endocrine system, and then like brain thought patterns. Yeah, that's it's usually quite evident from physiology and the breath when we take someone into a journey.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

I've I've I I can honestly say I don't think I've ever been held um like I have with you by any other man.

SPEAKER_02 1:39

Yeah, thank you, bro.

Seeing People Through Physiology

SPEAKER_00 1:40

The the immediate safety within your container, but then the direction. Like sitting on your table and being guided through myself. I was about to say my breath, but that just doesn't do justice to the experience. And like I could notice contractions in me, but you could see them almost at the moment. I'd notice them. Yes. You'd be like, Jamie, move your hand slightly to the right. Yeah, breathe that little bit deeper, change your tone as you're breathing. And every time I followed your instructions, I noticed that I could fall deeper into myself. Yeah, it's unbelievable.

SPEAKER_02 2:11

Yeah, thank you, bro. I mean, I've cultivated this level of attunement for a few different reasons, but one of them is just like the amount of hours I've spent with humans.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

Yo, you've got my curiosity. I need to scratch and go. And what are those other reasons?

SPEAKER_02 2:24

Whether I like to work with different like schemas or maps, but one of them is looking at like childhood development and seeing how the impacts of our childhood have shaped us.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:36

Um, and then also underneath that, I look at like the real essence of like why someone's here, what they're here to do. Um, like I I love like very good astrology, which looks at like planet placement and how someone is presenting in the world.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

Oh, Edward, I think you're being shy. I think you're being shy because when I look at somebody that can read somebody else impeccably, there's a much deeper reason.

SPEAKER_02 2:58

Yeah. I mean, mostly it's coming from survival, right? Which is the the the the underlying like need to understand what's going on in a space. Um parents divorced when I was three.

SPEAKER_00 3:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 3:08

And then I grew up in yeah, with my mother, which was like I the kind way of saying it is challenging. Um, bless her. And so I learned a lot of different strategies to stay safe. Yeah. And so then they were a problem for me until I realized how to effectively yeah, like use them and fit in with the world.

SPEAKER_00 3:29

Lovely. Really lovely that you said they were a problem for me. Because what I see in my work is that oftentimes people don't appreciate their gifts. Yeah. In actual fact, they're most challenged by their gifts until they realize they're their gifts. Yeah. So when you say your capacity to see through people was challenging, what does that actually look like?

SPEAKER_02 3:47

Um I think there was a few different ways it was difficult. One is is that I didn't realize that I could see things that other people couldn't, which meant I got a high level of exposure because of my sensitivity. And I wasn't very able to manage that effectively. So I was going around in the world or in like culturally as like a lot of other people were without recognizing like the level of sensitivity or difficulty that that was bringing for me.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

Can I translate that into my words?

SPEAKER_02 4:16

Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

Okay, so I'm sitting in the playground and I see such and such as a dick.

unknown 4:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

But everybody else thinks he's cool.

SPEAKER_02 4:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

And so that's isolating.

SPEAKER_02 4:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:25

You know, you actually have this aversion to hang out with somebody that everybody else is cool with.

SPEAKER_02 4:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:29

And that obviously plays out in a hundred different regards. The playground, the school guy, you know, parent other people's parents, partners, all of that. Yeah. But then you feel things strongly, and those feelings are overwhelming, overwhelming.

SPEAKER_02 4:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

So whereas everybody's like so happy to go on this adventure or do this or do that, you're like, it doesn't actually feel good for me. I don't know why at the time, because you haven't quite understood it. Yeah. And so you find yourself socially withdrawing. Yeah. Would that be fair?

SPEAKER_02 4:57

Yeah, it's fair. I think that happened later. Before that, I just like kept fitting in, which is of course like really deep self-betrayal. And then because of that, I was doing things that were basically avoiding my sensitivity as opposed to like loving and embracing it. And that was a lot of like adrenaline sports, alcohol, promiscuity.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

Sorry. Okay. So you have the feelings, but yeah, what most people do is they just want to get on, they want to fit in. So you betray yourself. Yeah. You betray yourself and then you create all this like energy that needs somewhere to go. So you become bold as hell.

SPEAKER_02 5:27

Yeah, exactly. Right. And no one's really going to tell you, like, you know, when you're going through the, you know, your high school experience, like, oh yeah, you probably want to go and work in this really esoteric field of mapping people's deepest pain psychology and holding them in it. It's like there's no vocational training for this. Do you know what I mean? It's not like, oh yeah, this is the path. But outside of that, like there's no one to follow. Like back then, you know, I grew up in the UK, right? And and I'm 44. So it gives you like a timeline of what I was going through when and on pre-social media. Like, none of this shit existed.

SPEAKER_00 5:58

You were like dial up crappy internet just about.

SPEAKER_02 6:00

That's it, right? Like there was no cell phones. And there's like internet hit me at like, I think I was 16 when it really came like through the phone, right?

SPEAKER_00 6:08

Sorry, I just had I was as you were speaking, I was trying to think of like, okay, he's 44. Like, what would internet have been like at that? And all I could remember that to me, as like internet kind of came around 1314 for me, and I'm 38, so six years prior. So all I could remember it the internet was about was porn. Yeah. That was all I was thinking, like, oh, maybe, maybe there's a Wim Hof equivalent. No, absolutely not. There's no reference points for you. No, exactly, right? There's nothing. So can I just rewind there a little bit? Because what I'm getting is this guy, self-betrayals to fit in, wonder why you feel so bad, vents through, let's say, a load of coping mechanisms to do that, but at a certain point realizes that doesn't serve. And the only way to really look after yourself is to withdraw.

SPEAKER_02 6:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 6:53

And work through and almost find your own practice. Yeah. Now I I would have thought, sorry, from my experience with you, I I I have come to believe your work, which I don't think it's fair to say is just breath work, it's so much more. Yeah. But your work is like one of the most efficient processes for clearing trauma. Yeah, thank you. But how the hell do you discover that?

Survival Roots And Sensitivity

SPEAKER_02 7:15

Yeah, out of necessity, yeah. So like 31, I went through I was caught in an avalanche and had PTSD. And then that was basically the culmination of all the coping mechanisms, and it was just like the lid got taken off Pandora's box and thrown away. And it was like, here's all of the shit you've never dealt with, and now you've got to fucking deal with it. And I was like, okay, uh what do I do with that?

SPEAKER_00 7:43

Tell me at that point, because I'm going back to like say some of the more challenging points of my life. Yeah. And I'm shocked that practices came through me almost intuitively. Yeah. Like it blows my mind what's inside us and what can come in those times of need. How did you discover your practice then? I understand the timing. Where did it come from?

SPEAKER_02 8:06

Yeah, I think uh well, the low points are the turning points, right? And then uh I think I was it was probably I was around 31, maybe 32, I almost killed myself.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 8:17

Yeah, so I got to a point of such like depression, despair, and hopelessness that I stared down the possibility that like it might just be a much better option to just end my life. And in that moment something changed. And in that moment, something came alive within me that led me into like a deep surrender and catharsis and almost like a letting go. And then uh I think from that place I accepted that I was a fucking mess. And then I was like, I gotta get help. Yeah, and then I think it was in that like surrendering and then the need for support and the the recognition that that was what was required that I started to kind of piece things back together again a bit.

SPEAKER_00 9:06

Lovely. Can I ask how how were you gonna kill yourself?

SPEAKER_02 9:10

Yeah, I was like six spears deep in the middle of a four-lane highway, and I was about to throw myself under a bus.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 9:18

I know that's the same thing. Very selfish way, by the way. It's like fucking brutal. Like everyone on a bus, they would ever I was thinking, I was thinking Mr.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Brathwork would do something around suffocation.

SPEAKER_02 9:26

No, no, I hadn't got there yet. No, I know it, I know, I know, but I just wanted to watch the breathing in your system. Oh, yeah, no. It could be very on brand. No, it was just it would have been on brand. No, it was just booze and under a bus.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 9:36

Which is a very selfish thing to do. I mean, suicide is a very selfish thing when you think.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

I was just thinking missed opportunity. Let's go back and rewrite the story. Is this so dark? Too dark? No, not at all.

SPEAKER_02 9:45

I think uh I think, yeah, I think that would probably be a much better way to go. I mean, like full body impact in terms of what I understand about trauma now as well, would have been terrible. Yeah. Yeah. So suffocation would be a much, much more easeful way.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

Well, in some of our work, where I think I held my breath for like three or four minutes one time. Yeah, like it get.

SPEAKER_02 10:08

You get into some non-ordinary stuff there as well, right? Yeah. Yeah. Probably the one of the ironies is as you're going in there, you probably realize everything's okay and then don't want to die. So yeah, but then you might be too late at that point, which would be tragic.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

So if I actually go back to that point for yourself where you're like, hey, I'm considering suicide, it's quite an interesting turning point mentally, because if you're like, do you know what I'm gonna end my life, then suddenly your resistance to say the shame in some areas or the the contractions in other areas of your life kind of are rendered null and void. Yeah. Because you're like, well, if I'm gonna kill myself, surely this doesn't matter anymore.

SPEAKER_02 10:39

Yeah, yeah. I think that that's a really good point to get to is that baseline of nothing matters. And then actually what comes out of that is like existential collapse and then apathy. And then from that there's a lot of rest. And then you start to sort of I started to sort of rebuild like, well, what actually does matter?

SPEAKER_00 10:57

Lovely. Yeah. Sorry, rest because you know what, fuck it. If I was gonna kill myself, I really don't need to show up here, I don't need to do this. You take all that pressure off your shoulders, and the rest rebuilds your energy and allows you to make some better decisions for yourself.

SPEAKER_02 11:10

Yeah, and after being in the middle of the highway in Peru, Peru, I I went and curled up in the dirt and cried for like three hours.

unknown 11:18

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 11:18

Yeah, and that was like this huge cathartic release of all the shit that I'd bottled bottled up for so many years, just just like being liberated from my system. Yeah, and that was really good.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

So, when does breath work come into it?

SPEAKER_02 11:32

About a year later. Yeah, about a year later. Um, I did some weird shit that year. Um I love when you're like, I did some weird shit. I'm like, literally mentally, I'm like, oof. I lived in a stone cottage um without electricity or internet for for about five months. Wow. That was pretty interesting, and that was just an opportunity just to reconnect to land and shut out everything that was developed.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

You're so interesting, Edward. It was fucking weird. And then sorry, I have to pause you there because I know you live in a wooden house now. Yeah, I do, yeah. And I know you live in that wooden house because you feel that energy passes through it.

SPEAKER_02 12:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 12:13

But when you say a stone house, I know that energy within stone houses condenses and compresses. Yeah. So tell me the reason of that.

From Avalanche PTSD To Rock Bottom

SPEAKER_02 12:20

Well, I mean, I was in Portugal and it was what they build from. Yeah, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

There's a deeper meaning because people live in stone houses for a reason without electrical interference and I because it concentrates energy and feeling.

SPEAKER_02 12:30

Yeah, it's very grounding, but if you don't have any electricity in the space, then it actually just blocks everything out. So, like for me, that was a time where I was so overwhelmed with like stimulus and life and like humanity that I wanted to get away from it all.

SPEAKER_00 12:46

Yeah, purposely.

SPEAKER_02 12:48

Yeah. Yeah, I was Yeah, I was just so done. I and I think ultimately, like that, you know, when I reflect back on my experience of of getting close to ending my life, that was a time where ultimately, like, I was just exhausted.

SPEAKER_00 13:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:02

And I was exhausted with myself mostly. Like, I was exhausted with my strategies that I'd learned to try and fit in and stay safe. And I was exhausted with the energy that was moving through me that I didn't know how to manage or what to do with, I just didn't have skills or good mentorship. And I just needed a fucking break, you know.

SPEAKER_00 13:17

This is 10 years ago.

SPEAKER_02 13:19

Yeah, it's about 14, 13, 14 years, 13 years ago now.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

Fascinating. Because like looking at you now, I said it before you started, you glow. You're looking younger than you did a year or two ago.

SPEAKER_02 13:28

I do. I I am conc I feel, I mean, like compared to back then, I look a lot healthier than I did 13, 14 years ago. It's fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

Yeah, yeah, I I'm really interested in the um in your work particularly, right? Which I I I I've stolen a little bit. Not stolen, but like you inspired me that I've made a lot of this. What I find is that every time I breathe into myself, yes, and every time I let's say rewrite a story, yeah, I take a weight off my shoulders. Beautiful. I feel lighter, and I feel that's almost reflected in my complexion, in my feeling. It's like I think we when we do trauma work can literally take years off our shoulders.

SPEAKER_02 14:07

Yeah, totally, yeah. Yeah, it's there's these incomplete reflexes, right? And these these stories with charge that weren't allowed to complete with resolution, they get stored in the low brain, and they're not then resolved, and then they impact the movement and breathing patterns. Yeah, and then that starts to impact the system where it just doesn't express vibrancy.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

Can I run a definition past you? Sure. Because I I'm kind of I'm hearing what you just said. I'm like, I'm making it my own. Let's say, for example, sake, I walk out the door of the studio, and somebody l puts a knife at me and says, Give me your phone.

SPEAKER_02 14:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:42

And I instinctively breathe in. I tense right up and I stay tense because I'm so afraid of what might happen. And let's say I give him the phone and he goes.

SPEAKER_02 14:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

And I'm tense. Yeah. Okay. And then say, immediately speaking, somebody comes to me and says, Oh my god, are you okay? And starts, it starts speaking at me, talking at me in all sorts of different directions and almost distracting me.

SPEAKER_02 15:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

And then I'm like, I'm in that, but I'm like, oh God, I actually need to go to a meeting. I need to go to a friend's gathering. And I'm I'm I'm holding that energy, but I'm like, I've got to go. So I throw myself on but onto my bike and I get to my friends, and then I meet a friend and I'm distracted and distracted and distracted and distracted. And before I know, I'm actually just back into the run of my days. Yeah. But in actual fact, there's still a level of that contraction stuck in me. There's still that fright. Yeah. That in that moment I had the opportunity to perhaps process, but I didn't. And what your work allows, or what the work of calm yourself right down. Breathe yourself back to that moment. Feel the feelings that were coming to you at that moment. And perhaps what didn't get to run its course, then you give yourself the opportunity to run its course, which nine times out of ten is allowing your body to actually relax, release, so release that contraction.

SPEAKER_02 16:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:06

And with it, there's almost a depth of breath as well, where you can go and fully sigh out. Yeah. And so when we talk about these effects, oftentimes what it shows in the body is it's it's contraction. Yeah. It's health contraction that we get distracted away from processing and then carry with us. And the carrying of that tense is like energy at maximum um use essentially to hold that contraction.

SPEAKER_02 16:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:34

And if we do that, maybe not in that extreme case, but if we have go about our days, weeks, months, years, we're perhaps holding on to two or three contractions every other day. That exhausts us, that ages us. And so when we go back and we do that work and relax ourselves down, that relieves that energy, gives it back to us and takes a weight off our shoulders. Is that fair to say? Does that make that sense?

SPEAKER_02 16:57

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think that's very accurate. I think um the things to consider alongside that is that everyone has a different different capacity to release that overnight.

SPEAKER_00 17:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 17:08

Right. So the ability to discharge the stress from the day varies and then it compounds negatively, right? So when when the system can't discharge, then it starts to compound more of these events. Because, you know, people are gonna they're gonna hold knives to our necks and we're gonna face stress and challenge. It's not that we're not gonna face adversity in life, it's what's our ability to mitigate for it. And then how does the system create harmony and release?

SPEAKER_00 17:33

Lovely. So for the let's say Jamie of 10 years ago that was competing with other entrepreneurs in terms of how little I could sleep, how much I could work, well, that Jamie has no time to process. And so those issues start to compound, yeah, which would eventually the burnout, the breakdown. Exactly. That's it, right? Whereas if I'm actually consciously living, slowing myself down, perhaps doing my yoga, my meditation, my breath work, or really just practicing sleeping well and eating well. Yeah, so much of this stuff will actually process almost automatically in the background as I Yeah, there's a lot of that going on.

Collapse, Surrender, And A New Path

SPEAKER_02 18:09

The other thing we've got to consider is like what is what are the foundations with which the system's processing out, right? And so that's when we start looking in, like the assumption is that like you're you're starting at a healthy operating system, right? Which none of us are.

SPEAKER_00 18:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:26

So we're born, right? However, we're born, we come in, and then basically we've got zero to three years programming, yeah, which is the way that we learned how to move, breathe, and and just how movement's impacting breathing and the container that we're in, and then we've got three to seven of all of this new emotional development, and then we've got, you know, from seven through to fifteen of this next phase, and then you turbocharge it with sexual hormones and chemistry for and then you've got a whole new phase as well. So by the time we actually hit entrepreneurship or functioning at any point, like say you start going into business at 20, the way you approach business is built on the foundations of behavior from zero to twenty.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:04

And so, yeah, much more likely that the reason you burnt out was in fact because that was preconditioned from your from your schooling.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

Lovely.

SPEAKER_02 19:14

And so you recreated the same environment that you needed to escape from to create your own corrective experience.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

That's a huge statement. And I kind of it's so annoying because I really want to bring myself back to 31, 32 when you discover breath work, but at the same time. At the same time what you've just shared there is like Jamie, yes, you were working very fast, like you were working very hard, you weren't looking after yourself so so well, you were accumulating let's say trauma and l there was no way for any of that to to to clear, and so it all kind of built up competitive and you broke down. But in actual fact, the reason why. Why that environment was there was based on your earlier years where you never quite learned or appreciated or sorry, prioritized um wellness and self-care. Yeah. And so without that in your earlier years, you essentially bring about the event in your later years to teach you that and to help you better prioritize. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 20:25

Thank you. You're so bloody smart. Life has a wonderful way of doing this, right? For us. And I like I created it myself. But I've created the same thing over and over again until I fucking learned. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? And it's like it's devastating and humbling, but it's also like a the power of awakening.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

Yeah. That's there is an odd thing that, like, okay, so we hear this cliche saying that everything in life is here to serve you. If it doesn't, unfortunately, it kind of pushes you aside.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:53

But there is then I thought that, yeah, for every challenge that's come, there's a reason why that challenge has come. There's a lesson to be learned. And if you can learn that lesson, you not just break through this, but you open yourself up to a brighter path for going forward. Yeah. You you finish the loop. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:08

Yeah. Um, yeah. And alongside that, like life's tough, right? There is arduous challenge and lots of things that happen. I think we've got to be careful that that narrative doesn't get co-opted by what the silver lining bullshit, right? Which is like, well, everything happens for a reason. And it's just like, well, everything happens and we can always find a reason. Well, the reason I share that is because if we are looking to silver line an experience that's been difficult and avoid the emotionality of it, we don't get into the underlying reflex. We don't get into the pain of it.

unknown 21:44

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

I love it. I need to make this practical again. Something happens bad to somebody, especially at home. Everybody, whenever something hap bad happens to them, they always say, Oh, well, you know, there's kids starving in Africa. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And what they do is they tune themselves out of the actual issue, the challenge, the hurt that they're experiencing. And when they don't feel the hurt, they don't get to process the emotion. Yeah, that and they don't get to learn, which means they get to do it again.

SPEAKER_02 22:07

And they just recreate it again and stay stuck in their own suffering.

SPEAKER_00 22:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 22:11

Right? So yeah, the the idea is that we actually tune into the internal landscape and find out why has my heart been broken here? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:19

Because I sometimes was told, oh yeah, you're you're overindulging in your hurt. For God's sake, Jamie, there's there's kids starving in Africa. And I was like, okay, but the African kids. And it's like, well, to in some regards, shame on you. Pick yourself up and get on.

How Contractions Become Stored Trauma

SPEAKER_02 22:34

But it is, you I mean, it is. It's it's shaming your emotional expression. In that moment, it's a very effective tool to shut you down, right? But the real reason is like someone doesn't want to care, take your hurt or explain to you like the internal landscape of what's really going on inside you right now. And then when you explain that to someone, you explain, oh yeah, I can see your hurt, and that makes sense to me. We're complete, right?

SPEAKER_01 22:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:55

Like that's it, you know? Uh and a relationship. Like I'm heartbroken. Like, well, of course I fucking am. You know? That makes sense. I'd sit with that and be with that.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

So say all somebody really needs is actually someone to just acknowledge their feelings and sit with it.

SPEAKER_02 23:10

Mostly, most of the time, we just need to be validated. I mean, like most my my work, like you know, I I love like I am like very experienced and technical, but most of the time I just hold people in pain and love them. I know. Like that really is the antidote, right? And when you felt like the way that I hold you and appreciate you, I mean it's just like, yeah, you'd be a total fucking stranger. You know, come to my Wednesday night workshop. I'll just still hold you in love.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

I I'm thinking back to me post-breakup, being held crying my eyes out by you. Like thank you. Yeah, you're so welcome, bro. But like, wow, that like actually so much of the healing is just a strong man holding you and going, Yeah, do that shit. I'm sorry. Wow. It's what we didn't get. Yeah. Yeah. I notice oftentimes when I'm hurt. What's that phrase? It's idiot compassion, where a friend will say, Oh yeah, Jamie, you know, fuck them, and rah-rah, rah, rah. And it doesn't do anything. In actual fact, it just it robs me of my learnings, actually. It it deflects everything into it allows me to play a victim kind of role. Yeah. Whereas that stronger soul that can whatever I might be experiencing and whoever might be to blame, instead of getting into any of the story, just holds me and goes, that's fucking tough. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02 24:36

That's it, right? In that moment, is to sit with that person, right? And just be with that and be like, This is fucking difficult, huh? Yeah. Yeah, feel that, uh, and I'm here with you. Yeah. And not and not to diminish it, right? And not to indulge it, and not to make it about me in the process of holding you, and not to blame the person that did it to you, right? None of that's available, right? What we've got to be is really just with it. And this is what we're learning individually and collectively, is to be able to be with someone in that moment in loving awareness.

SPEAKER_00 25:09

That like if I think about you holding me in that space, you immediately what I felt was you helped me um, you helped me take down my bar, my, my walls. Like I could just feel like, oh, I'm safe with this, man. And as I've immediately as I felt safe, I remember I'm crying. Yeah, it was great. And then your prompts, I find sometimes that when I'm emotionally sensitive, what people I'm so sensitive to what people say to me. Yeah. And if they distract me, God, there's a part of me that gets so angry, whereas you were like, they're there. And then as I got side, you're like, oh my God, welcoming that side of you. Oh, welcoming that softer side of me. It was like everything you said. If somebody is when somebody else says the wrong thing, it distracts me. You actually help me tune into myself more and more. Yeah. And so that yet that's what this work is really about. And it's not just breath work, it's any level of care. Yeah. Help somebody feel safe, help somebody tune into themselves all the more. You don't actually need to do anything. If you can help somebody feel safe and tune into themselves, they'll very quickly go through the process and self-heal.

SPEAKER_02 26:15

Yes. The next layer of that is I become pretty adept at recognizing people's protective strategies for not feeling themselves. And then I can ask those parts of them to soften back or step aside or take a little break and actually get in touch with it. The reason that we were able to go so deep so fast is you have very easy mechanisms for vulnerability. Right. It's just really easy to be with you if someone's attuned. Right. And also hearing your frustration when they're not, which is super fair, right? Yeah. So because of that, because I could attune to you and you could attune to yourself, we could go into a really deep process.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:55

And sometimes when I'm working with people, they've got a variety of different parts that keep them from feeling the depth of intensity. And that makes sense. And I understand them. And my my role as a facilitator is to gently move them back such that we can get in touch with the real like essence and tenderness that's really underneath all of those strategies to not really feel vulnerable.

Foundations: Early Development Shapes Breathing

SPEAKER_00 27:18

Can I share something that's coming up for me as you're sharing that? So I'm just out of the pasta. Yeah. Which is amazing. And like to explain that, it's like sit with yourself. Don't move. Don't change your breathing. Calmly breathe and sit. And like for the first minute, I was like, I can do this. This is great. Um but we sit five times for 90 minutes a day. And I noticed after a minute I'd feel extraordinary pain in my body. And then my head would distract me with like, Jamie, what about this query in business? What about that girl you kind of like? What about this travel thing? And initially I indulged in those thoughts. But after I'd sat like that 20 or 30 times, I started to notice that the same distractive thoughts come up, the themes. It's like work, girls, travel, home, every time. I noticed that those thoughts weren't actually thoughts, they were distractions. That blew my mind that oh, I have a almost automatic pattern of thoughts to tune me out of feeling. Yeah, wow. And when I when I like noticed that, and I like when those thoughts would come up, I was like, I'm not indulging in those thoughts, I'm not thinking about them. I pushed them aside, bang, I'm left with the pain and a deeper level of the pain. But interestingly, like the pain then started almost show me. It was like as I'd feel the pain more, I would start to see uh oh, I'll make this much more practical. I had a lot of pain on my shoulders and on my back. Yeah. And as I would sit, I would feel that pain, and then suddenly these distractive thoughts would go on. I'd go on a journey. But as I learned that those were distractions, put some way, I'd feel the pain more in my back. And then stories would start to play out of when I thought I was being a man and I was doing work that I should for others. And I would see all these times when I stood up and thought I was being so great, taking the weight of the world on my shoulders. The obligation. Hilarious, right? And the more I saw it, the more I saw these examples, the more I felt the pain on my shoulders. Oh, wow. To an to an intolerable level. That actually, like as I'm sitting there, not moving, still breathing, and the pain is getting worse and worse and worse. And the examples of that are getting more and more challenging to process internally. It was like, no more, no more. Then suddenly I got like this rerun internally of well, here's how you could have done it differently. If you had just sat back, that other person would have stepped up, they would have learned, and you would have been focused, you would have continued on with your mission. And when I saw that, I was like, Oh, that's a different way I could do things. For a moment, I'd get a bit of pain relief. And then another one of those stories would play out in my mind internally, and I would like be like, Oh, god, yeah, that I don't need to be stepping up for everybody else. Actually, if I just stepped up for myself, others would learn. I'd be focused. And every time I saw it play out, I get a little bit more relief and a little bit more relief until the end moment when I was after it played out maybe 10 times, I'd be like, I am never gonna do that again. This is a new way of being for going forward. In that moment, it's like the pain melted away. It was the weirdest thing. I could actually feel feel the pain melting off my shoulders, like a t-shirt coming off my shoulders. And it was like that pain was so obviously saying, Stop thinking you're a big man taking away the world on your shoulders. Yeah, well, it's not serving you. Yeah, you need to listen. Yeah. And that story as it solidified, I got it's fascinating.

SPEAKER_02 30:48

That's epic, bro.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

Right? Yeah. But you but but what I noticed is like that process of pasna was lengthy and challenging. A lot of that came up in our work as well.

SPEAKER_02 30:57

Yeah. Uh I would say like the same mechanism but different approach.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

Yeah. Yeah. So none of that none of what I've just shared there, none of that's unfamiliar. All of that is like, oh yeah, that's textbook.

SPEAKER_02 31:08

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense to me in terms of the mechanism, right? Bringing conscious awareness into a space and then like the strategies for avoidance of that.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

Right.

SPEAKER_02 31:15

I I think, you know, I there's lots of different ways to improve embodiment and to get in touch with what's there. And it's just really sticky that it can someone can sit in a vipasta and still dissociate for the fucking full time, right? Yeah. It's what was interesting about the story was your ability to actually feel what was there and to separate out the the distractive noise from the actual going in and then the clarification in your mind that occurred. And I don't think everyone has that as an experience, right?

SPEAKER_00 31:45

So do you know I was lucky? Uh David Hansbacher, who owns the Astana, guided me through the whole thing. And every day he would be, every day he was sharing really precise, like, you're gonna be feeling this, you're gonna be experiencing this, notice this. His prompts were so good. Yeah, good. That day by day, yeah, I got to make the most of the experience. But it's just it is interesting when you when you spoke about I can notice people's distractions, I can see through people's bullshit from from avoiding feeling what they have to. Yeah, I wouldn't have really known what you truly meant by that until that Vipassan experience where I was like, oh my god, my mind actually has specific areas of thoughts or themes of thoughts that are not there because I need to think about the work, I think about the girl, I think about the travel. They are there to tune me out, to numb me from what's going on in my life.

SPEAKER_02 32:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:40

Shocking.

SPEAKER_02 32:41

Yeah, for yeah, I like this. I like this approach, right? It's just the recognition that there's a tension between like the way that the mind is creating strategies to avoid the deeper pain, right? Right. And in doing so, it's keeping us stuck.

SPEAKER_00 32:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:54

Right. Because it unless we address the deeper pain, yeah, that's really held within us, we're just gonna keep creating these loops of suffering.

SPEAKER_00 33:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:02

And so I think it that the like I don't really advertise this, but like, I mean, my work is like, let's go into your deepest pain. No one's signing up for that. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 33:11

But I I I have this image, right, of somebody somebody's somebody falls and they're hurt, right? And I I in me 10 years ago would have walked up and said, Oh, you're not hurt, you're okay, don't worry, you're fine, let's get you back up on your feet, you're fine. I would have said, You're fine, you're fine, you're fine, you're okay, you're healthy. And I'm actually really interfering in their process in that regard. Yeah. Whereas now, if I see somebody falling over, I will I will come close to them. Yeah, I'll be like, I see you had a had an accident. Yeah, just so you know I'm here. Yeah. If you need support, I can help you. Do you need support? Yeah, would you like me to hold your hand? Yeah. Do we need to breathe? Do you need help breathing through this? Yeah. Um I I would be so reserved and so cautious and anxious that I might be interrupting their self-healing process. Which when you talk about like when you went back to the idea of of youth, I think a lot of kids, especially now in this ridiculous woke culture, are being overcared for and in that tuned out of their ability to self-heal, regulate, and lead.

Feeling Pain Without Silver Linings

SPEAKER_02 34:18

Yeah, look, you touch into a subject that's like really important and dear for me because my son's seven years old and I'm watching his ability to emotionally regulate, which has gone from close to non-existent to pretty decent. And through that process, there seems to be like a a razor's edge between, you know, not caring enough and caring too much. And I'm like walking this line as a dad, you know, with this boy of seven and wanting to expose him to enough of the world, but not too much, you know, and wanting to care for him enough but not get in the way of his process. And so, yeah, it's just it's kind of tricky. One of the other things is I need to have a good sense of what he needs in that moment.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:05

Yeah, when he doesn't. And the rest of the time I gotta ask him. But you know, when kids are younger, they don't really know what they want. And they're looking to parents to to help them.

SPEAKER_00 35:15

Yeah. And it's a space like this, this is a lot to learn. It's a lot to become aware. Like it's a you one's I I certainly think my instinctive reaction when somebody is in pain or suffering is you want to help them, you want to relieve them of their pain and suffering. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How uh how how intriguing to figure out that actually you're doing them a disservice. That's it, right? And you could be doing it.

SPEAKER_02 35:35

Yeah, exactly. And this is where like the nuance and complexity is so important, right? Because the example you give, like someone falls over and has an accident, right? Now, depending on the state of their nervous system internal regulation will depend on how I will engage with them. So if they're totally disassociated, right, I will go in and provide like physical reassurance without consent, right? And I'll take the risk on that one. And fuck it, I might get sued. But you know what? That would be on me later, right? And I'll be happy with that. Whereas if they're like dusting themselves off and they're pretty solid, I'm gonna be like, good, and they'll be like, yeah, good, and that's it, right? So we've got to get really clear on like so much of this is about like how are they responding to the stimulus as well in that moment. And that's gonna change a lot depending on internal physiology and then like, yeah, what the severity of the incident. And yeah, so I think we've got to layer it up, right? And I think one of the problems we face right now is that trauma gets put in a big tea bucket and everything in there's trauma, right? And and then, oh, well, to heal it, you just got to go and do like EMDR or ayahuasca or whatever it is, right? But it just doesn't work like that, you know. Our systems are very sophisticated. And so when we've had an event that's caused some sort of overwhelm in the system, it's learned to self-protect in an incredibly intricate way. We need to interface with that intricacy, like with a lot of attunement and awareness, such that it can unravel and find that better harmonized pathway again. So, yeah, that's the work that we do is is that basically. It's attuning to a system and find out how has it got in the way of itself to keep itself safe. And then how do we unravel it such that it's harmonized?

SPEAKER_00 37:06

I love that you gave that variable process of like where somebody's at, where their nervous system is at. Yeah, because what I find is obviously everybody's living on Instagram and they're all seeing, like, what's the five-step solution for this? And it's like, no, that was that person's five-step solution in their area of life. But we're also bloody individual that if we don't understand the individual, individualized, right?

SPEAKER_02 37:26

This is complexity, right? And I'm here for the complexity. One of the things that I've come to learn about myself is I have a bizarre ability to remember a large amount of information, right? And I think also through breath work practice, I've got this like we're really weird memory, right? Um, yeah, and it allows me to recall like the shapes of people's breath mechanics like quite well.

SPEAKER_00 37:47

You've intrigued me. I need to ask you another question, right? So I am noticing that the more work I've done, particularly over the last 10 years, uh, the more clear my memory is. Yes. Like dramatically clear. Now I notice when I meet people, particularly people with tough challenge, uh, tough relationships with their parents or challenging upbringing, most of them are like, oh, I can't remember before the age of 12. Yeah. Their memory is just gone. Yeah. However, the more we coach, the more we work through things, suddenly they're like, Do you know what? I had this dream when I was five and I just remembered this thing. What is all of that about?

SPEAKER_02 38:18

Look, we're really good psychologically at denying the shit that's happened to us. Right? We need to make cohesive narratives around things that have been difficult such that we can integrate it. Like, my level of forgiveness for humans is incredible because I had to do it my whole childhood. That became a problem for me. You know, I had to recognize how to learn like boundaries. Like, I didn't realize like, well shit, this behavior isn't okay. I thought like being shamed and blamed was just like how we can live. Right. And so for me, I had to learn like these new standards around protocols of of how we behave and how we relate. So you said your level of forgiveness is off the chain there, right?

SPEAKER_00 38:53

Yeah. But then you went on to saying because like you were met in life without a lot of without a lot of that. But so you said you had to relearn boundaries, which would suggest actually that you're not as forgiving now. Now I'm now I'm very forgiving. Both of those are the things. Okay. So I yeah, I needed to get into that. So when the forgiving allows you to let go of the attachment of issue with anybody else, right? Yeah. But the boundary suggests like, hey, see you, recognize you, I have compassion for you. I forgive you, but I also don't want you ever in my life again goodbye.

SPEAKER_02 39:36

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 39:37

Okay, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 39:38

That's it, right? Yeah, and it's not coming from a space of anger, it's just understanding the mechanism behind it, right?

SPEAKER_00 39:43

Oh, it's actually coming from self-care and self-love.

SPEAKER_02 39:44

Yeah, exactly, right?

SPEAKER_00 39:46

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's lovely. Okay, now are you ready? I'm like reeling you. Strapped in. Yeah. No, but like so you discover breath work. Who the hell introduced you to breath work? I'm hoping. God. Look at me planting my words in you, but please tell me it came to you in a dream or some self-practice or a whole load of psychedelics.

SPEAKER_02 40:05

No, none of those things. Um it was introduced to me by a man called Robin Clements.

SPEAKER_00 40:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 40:11

Yeah. And Robin's um been working with breath for for about 25 years now. And he was introduced to it from a lineage called Transformational Breath, which is a school that was founded by a lady called Judith Kravitz. And TB transformational breath is kind of like the big player in the conscious connected breathing world. Okay. Like in in North America, and actually globally is pretty pretty strong. Robin was a student of hers, he trained with her, and then he went on to start his own style of sharing breath. Um and I I went and hung out with Robin and trained with him and loved what he was doing, and then also realized there were some things I wanted to do differently. And so I supported him on a few of his trainings, and then I decided that like I wanted to do things in a slightly different style and way. And so yeah, I started to explore what that would look like. And I wanted to integrate more of the principles of somatic experiencing of the work of Peter Levine.

SPEAKER_00 41:07

Okay.

Validation, Safety, And Real Holding

SPEAKER_02 41:07

So I kind of wanted to basically brent blend what I learned with Robin with the work of Peter Levine, and then also incorporate a few different things that I'd learned from other teachers. So yeah, I basically created an amalgamation of 12 lineages that I loved.

SPEAKER_00 41:24

Lovely. Yeah. And that is you. Sorry, I know you uh as like breathwork barley, but like you're also international, right?

SPEAKER_02 41:32

Yeah. Yeah. We have our techniques called FBR, which is facilitated breath repatterning. And right now we've got Breathwork Bali, Breathwork Australia, mostly in Byron, but also Sydney, Breathwork Singapore, and we've got a whole crew in Europe.

SPEAKER_00 41:46

Wow, Edward Weldon.

SPEAKER_02 41:48

We've got New York and some other stuff happening soon as well. And yeah, just like a cool team all over the place right now. We're starting to more formalize that. Um, yeah, which is fun.

SPEAKER_00 41:59

Can I run a few theories past you? Yeah, go. Okay, so um my experience working with you, where as I said, you were very uh attuned to helping somebody feel safe around you. And as I feel safe, my boundaries come down, which I don't think are like figurative. I actually think my auric field really relieves itself and is like, we're safe in this person. The same way if I come back into my mom's, my mum and dad's home, I immediately speaking feel safe. I'm in my soft body. Yeah, the opposite of that would be me walking down a main street in London where I think my phone is gonna get robbed in a second, and I'm just hearing ambulances and everything. I'm tense, I'm tight, yeah, and my energy is just barriering everything off, right? Yeah. Okay, so I come into you, you help me feel safe. You then help me actually really tune into myself with breath.

SPEAKER_01 42:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:50

And we talked about, like, you know, actually, if you just keep help somebody feel safe and help somebody tune into themselves, oftentimes they'll do their own self-healing.

SPEAKER_02 42:58

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:59

Right. I I have an odd idea, and I just want you to tell me that this is rubbish, or there's actually some genius in it. That we can do that on an individual basis. And when we do it on an individual basis, it's powerful. If we do that together with another one, another person, where there is actually a true connection, there is a true feeling of safety, connection, and almost intimacy. That there is a sharing of um of healing that almost it's like we know co-regulation, we know that like stress transfers. I'm I think our codes of like healing and working through stuff transfers likewise. At the same time, as well, I do think our the negative side of that is true as well, that like if there's undealt with shit, that can almost be slightly contagious. Yeah. Can you talk to me about this? Because I'm fascinated by the side.

SPEAKER_02 43:49

I love a lot of these different concepts that you spoke into. Um, I think the the first one is like all of the data in all therapeutic modalities is pretty clear that rapport is the foundation, regardless of the technique or schema you're working with. Yeah. Yeah. So it's just fundamentally it's rapport. Yeah. Right? So that's the first thing. The next thing is for you, my space is safe. For other people, it's really dangerous. And the idea of safety, it's like safety is relative, it's a perspective, right? So it's kind of like, you know, some people like they sit, I'll they'll sit here with you and have a conversation and they're still just fucking guarded. Do you know what I mean? Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so for me to come here and speak to you feels really good. And so when you came into my space, it just felt really good for you to talk, right? But there was a willingness to get after it. Yeah. You wanted to go in and you wanted to relieve, and you went like, so I can do that with people, right? And and then when people come in and they sit there and then they realize that that's what's possible, it's terrifying. And then this whole other new set of protective mechanisms come in. And then I don't even declare what I can see, right? Because then if someone realizes how much I can see or feel in their physiology, that's a whole new level of fear that can come up, right? Because then they realize that I can see these parts of themselves that they're trying to hide from the world. So I think what you came in with is a really like high level of self-energy and ability and willingness to embrace parts of yourself that you knew needed care, right? Um, so I think that that sort of creates that awareness around whether a safe is space is safe or not. And then the piece that you touch into is this idea of resonance. And so, resonance, I think, happens on a couple different levels. Like, one of the reasons I love this work is because I'm a freak and I've breathed myself into all sorts of these different physiological states. And what that means is I'm embodied in comfort in them. Like when I have a client going into terror on the treatment table, like, and they look like they're in terror, like most people walking in the room at that point would be like, There's a problem. Stop them doing that, right? Get the restraints, get the trank gun. And I'm like, it's fine, they're just in terror. You know? And so, like, my ability to hold someone in terror is enormous.

SPEAKER_00 45:54

So, Edward, I have the funniest image. Can I wait over share with you? Let's go with it. Okay, so over my summer, I had a fantastic, adventurous summer, full of fun, uh, relational fun, sexy fun. And there was this fantastic woman, incredible woman, that uh as she came, wanted to uh wanted to be wanted to be suffocated to the point that at the very moment she comes, she passes out.

SPEAKER_02 46:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 46:20

Okay. In that moment, in that moment, she orgasms, passes out, and then goes into like a what do you call that when convulsion? Convulsions.

SPEAKER_01 46:33

Yeah.

Parenting, Co‑Regulation, And Nuance

SPEAKER_00 46:36

And we had talked through this whole, and I was actually very aware of all of this. Actually, a little bit towards a lot of the I was about to say the work that we've done and throw you in. No, no, no, of my own self-work of realizing, but it was fascinating to be so calm in that of like, oh, girls just passed out, girls going through convulsions, and I was like, so happy for you. You're having your time, you're great. It's incredible, right? Yeah. Well, like, actually, I completely understand the kink as well. It's like, actually, that makes a lot of sense. That's pretty hot.

SPEAKER_02 47:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:03

But it was amazing for me. Like, she came out of it and she was like, I told her and she was like, Oh my god, are you okay? I was like, perfectly fine. I get that, that's cool. Yeah, it's a lovely thing to have, let's say, that embodied frequency. God, oh my, maybe I'm oversharing about myself and that, but but to feel such a relaxed state. I often think other people's reaction does most of the harm.

SPEAKER_02 47:25

Yeah, it really can do in that moment, right? When you see someone going into convulsion and tremors, like if you're sitting in that, but you understand the physiology and the wisdom, it's fine. You are comfortable. You're like, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:36

So I get that that part of the practitioner's job is to go through an enormous amount of things. It's exposure therapy. And I I'm thinking of Roger Bannister and the four-minute mile. Yeah. Of that, like when he did the four-minute mile, everybody else did the four-minute mile. Yeah. And for us, I think when you venture into other things, yeah, you create safety in in others. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 47:57

Um, and and that is hugely supportive. Yeah, there's an anchoring and a tethering right in your system in that moment of transmission, right, which is resonance, which is like, I'm still in a regulated nervous system state. You're not going into activation and you're not going into a dorsal collapse, right? So you're not going into moving towards to fix, and you're not backing away out of like surrender or withdrawal, or I can't, right? You're staying in that moment of I am. And you're in I am energy in that moment with that woman. And that's where it goes deeper.

SPEAKER_00 48:29

I love that. I love when somebody is vulnerable enough to share their desires with you.

SPEAKER_02 48:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:34

That they're it's met with like intrigue, curiosity rather than judgment.

SPEAKER_02 48:39

But initially, like all of that contraction is just coming from the fact that like you did what? Fuck, you know, right? That's where it's coming from. Or like, you want me to do what? It's like that. I I mean the shock can also be like interesting data as well, right?

SPEAKER_00 48:51

The verse is wow, that's fascinating. That's exciting.

SPEAKER_02 48:54

Yeah, but I I want to know as well. I know, like, what how was that for you?

SPEAKER_00 48:59

Like, so I I uh I get off on people opening up, yeah. Like, hence my work is to help people work through their blocks, yeah, to help people, yeah, essentially be their true selves and live that. I think that like when somebody is true to themselves, they yeah, when somebody's authentic, they just they vibrate at a whole lot of things.

SPEAKER_02 49:21

So, what was it about then this woman asking for this that that lit you up?

SPEAKER_00 49:25

So, so firstly, to be to be to be, let's say, to develop a level of safety relationally with another whereby they're happy to share their deepest, darkest desires. Yeah, as I say this, I'm like, what's that her deepest, darker desire? Does it go deeper and darker? Wow, yeah. But in this context, for her to say, I would love to experience this. I loved being like, to be honest, comfortable. Uh to be like, oh yeah, that feels really exciting. Absolutely. To see somebody in convulsions is quite a process. Yes. I I I actually really want to ask you what I what is that process? But to be completely comfortable, I'd be like, oh no, I've seen this, she's completely fine. She's she'll she'll she'll come back to her senses within about 30 seconds here. Yeah, that's okay. Yeah. Uh for me, I would say it was like honoring in terms of oh, I can hold this base for her. Yeah, exciting because it's like, wow, we love seeing. Like for me, when what I love is when people let down their guard and show who they truly are, what they truly want, what they really get off on. Yeah, I love it because I'm so sick. Like you talked about being able to see through things at a young age. I see through bullshit, but I'm so fucking tired by it. Yeah, I'm like, stop keeping up appearances, stop with your bullshit. Let me see who you really are. So when somebody does that, I'm like, oh actually, my heart is like, love it. Yeah. And uh to see the level of, let's say, pleasure satisfaction, fulfillment in her in that moment, awesome. Yeah, absolutely awesome. Yeah. Uh can I ask you about the science behind it and like the insights of it? Like, why would somebody want to be suffocated? What what do convulsions actually mean? And the pleasure side of it.

SPEAKER_02 51:05

Yeah, it's cool, right? I mean, we start exploring like some of the motivational behaviors as to why we want to explore, like in in sexual energy and kink, what's playing out there? And a lot of it's just like, yeah, exploring dynamics around power and surrender.

SPEAKER_00 51:22

Okay. Yeah. And so her her desire first and foremost is like, oh, I desire to be safe with another person and to be able to truly surrender to the deepest edges.

SPEAKER_02 51:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 51:32

Yeah. I mean, I think getting into like the world of BDSM is fascinating because it works around like explicit declaration, which creates a lot of vulnerability, and then also like safety that come that is created through that, right? And then that you there's a lot of care that's needed in that as well.

SPEAKER_01 51:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:49

Yeah. Which is pretty fascinating. And then, yeah, like some people are just playing out like fantasies that they want more of or experiences that they've never had. So you can create a lot of corrective experience through that, like in the right way. And convulsions? Yeah. I mean, convulsions, like physiologically, what's happening, right, is conscious mind is shut clear off, right? So prefrontal cortex is disabled through hypoxia. And then in that moment, like there's deeper physiological things and mechanisms that are moving. So the diaphragm's convulsing to either like bring through oxygen, right, or off-gas CO2. And then there's like a response through the body that wants to like create homeostasis and balance again.

SPEAKER_00 52:31

Because it's very different, sorry, very similar to Kondalini release, our pranic release.

Complexity Beyond One‑Size‑Fits‑All Healing

SPEAKER_02 52:36

Yeah. So yeah, that sort of next curiosity comes around like basically like system, like when you think about the endocrine system and how energy moves through the glands, that's changing blood chemistry. And what yeah, is you're exploring there, right, is waves of pleasure. Yeah. So sexual energy from the pelvis, right, is moving up through the system, and then it's being concentrated and then momentarily arrested. Yeah. And then there's a new flood and wave of release that happens.

SPEAKER_01 53:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:09

So that I mean that what you you're starting to talk really deeply about surrender. Yeah. Right. But and like, yeah, then relief.

SPEAKER_00 53:17

Because okay, so my own practice, right? I I was very interested. I I came across a whole community of a psychedelic psychotherapist specializing in ketamine. And I was like, oh, I I let's dive into that space. Yeah. And I found myself, um, I found myself journeying in that world, which I find found like really profound, really impacting. But one of the practices that came out of that was that I just found myself very naturally holding my breath for very long periods. And it felt like in the same way when we fast, our body starts to really clear out so much. It felt that when I was holding my breath, it's like my body was almost squeezing out all the air throughout my body. And then when I would breathe in again, it felt like this enormous release and cleanse. Um but in that practice, I started to go into convulsions, and I didn't see the convulsions as negative. I felt that it was almost my body, it was my body releasing. Um so I felt it was a positive self-practice. But this was just like it's so odd, the things we do. Like as a teenager, you go, you move from playing with yourself to like as a 38-year-old man, being like, Fascinating. When I hold my breath, I notice that I start to I start to find my body's contracting and then it's releasing, I start to see stories play out in my mind. It feels like this is a good practice. Yeah, I'll just like what do you do in your spare time?

SPEAKER_02 54:50

Yeah, I love this. Like it's important to recognize that when it comes to the breath, right? Where we concentrate breath will change the experience that then unfolds in us physiologically, right? So if we firstly bring on a lot of oxygen and activate ourselves and then hold the breath full, that's a totally different experience than bringing on a little bit of breath, pushing all the breath out and holding the breath empty.

SPEAKER_01 55:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:17

So we've got these different experiences with breath retentions where you can hold empty, you can hold empty with the mouth and throat closed, and you can hold full. So those are basically the three big retentions, right? And then within that, you can choose where you put push the breath with the diaphragm and what other areas of the body you contract. So if you bring a lot of breath in and then you create a lot of contraction on the breath, you get a different force moving through the body than if you were to just let all of the breath out and be totally exhaled and stay empty. So there's a lot of different explorations we can do with this, with these breaths, right?

SPEAKER_00 55:54

And all of them have different kind of outcomes, different energy.

SPEAKER_02 55:57

Exactly, right? So all of them have a different balancing quality or a different releasing. In the case of this woman that you were enjoying, uh, she was concentrating sexual energy and then and then basically holding it, right? Which then created a huge movement of energy through the body, uh, which created some surrender into release. So energetically she could let's say 10x her orgasm.

SPEAKER_00 56:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:23

Apparently, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:24

Which is great, right?

SPEAKER_02 56:25

Yeah. So that's great, right? And cool, but what if she could learn how to do that without the asphyxiation? Well, which would be a fun practice for her.

SPEAKER_00 56:38

Let's bring her in here. Yeah, next week, maybe. I do a lot of this stuff as initiations, like the idea of holding my breath longer than I have scares the hell out of me, actually. But I find that every time I go a layer deeper, yeah, it opens up access naturally.

SPEAKER_01 56:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:54

So for example, say if I if I have my lung capacity for my normalized breathing, if I do a practice of this deep holding and deep holding contraction contracted afterwards, I think just normally I've increased my baseline.

SPEAKER_02 57:08

Yeah, it's good, right? I think it's important to recognize there comes a point where it's not gonna serve you anymore. Okay. The upper threshold. Okay. Right. And so that's one thing. And then the next thing is the way that you access it will either you will get increased gains or eventually you're gonna get a law of diminishing returns, depending on how you're approaching the breath and physiology.

Memory, Forgiveness, And Boundaries

SPEAKER_00 57:27

I think I hit that. Yeah, I definitely know that like there was a certain point like where I first started doing it, I was like, this is fascinating. And it's it was funny. Remember, I talked about the past and like different stories. Yes. What I noticed is that like it's almost like there was it's so weird, right? And it would forgive me if this is bizarre, but I would notice that as I hold my breath, the first 60 seconds is just random. But then after 60 seconds, it's almost like an initiation, like I like it's like like somebody presses play on a video internally, and I I I forget it, but every time I'm in it, I'm like, ah, this again. And it's this familiar practice of like it's showing me like I it's like it's this video playing me deeper into myself. Oh yeah, and like I hit a two-minute mark and it gets much more visual and much more real. I hit a three-minute mark and it's like, wow, yeah. But then at that time, yeah, there's a tension, and it I it's like a let's say to one minute was boring, to two minutes it was amazing, three minutes was amazing, three and a half minutes is interesting, three and four minutes is almost near impossible, and there's no no real difference. So, yeah, I get that diminishing return.

SPEAKER_02 58:38

Yeah, it's good, right? I think this is I love this for you, right? And having worked with your breath and your physiology and understanding you like reasonably well psychologically, right? It makes sense to me. I think one of the dangers that we face right now in our culture is the idea that that would work for anyone else. Yeah, do you know what I mean? Right, and the same for me. Like, I wouldn't recommend anyone goes on my path. Like it like well, the way that I learned is fucking disastrous. Don't do that, you know. So I think that's again where I want to get clear. Like, breath's fascinating, and the way it moves in a system is so interesting, and there just needs to be different approaches for different people. And that's why I love the complexity of the work.

SPEAKER_00 59:13

Well, okay, so we kind of went on this journey at a point where I was I was curious that I'm finding that when I when I'm safe with another person, and there's a want to open up a real like invitation of intimacy between the two of us. Yeah, I believe there's like a transfer. Yeah. So I'm I'm curious that I feel like a partner almost benefits from say the depth of that I've gone to.

SPEAKER_02 59:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 59:42

And like so, some of my healings and stuff almost transfer over to them.

SPEAKER_01 59:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:46

And some of their healings transfer over to me. I think that that we think, let's say, of intimacy almost kind of one dimensionally. We think it's it's like, oh, it's relaxing together or it can be sexy together. It's like, no, no, no. At a deeper level, there's a hell of a lot of healing going on.

SPEAKER_01 59:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:00

Does that weigh up? Like you're someone you've done 13,000 plus hours with people. Do you find that actually with every person you're sitting with, there's a level of learning through every one of them? There's a level of like, whoa, I just got something from that.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:12

Yeah, definitely. Like every single client I've ever worked with, I've learned so much. Yeah. That's been my approach as well, right? I think because I I mean, I and I have always been instilled, my teachers have always instilled that in me. It's just this idea that like we're gonna keep learning. And I love that. I mean, every time I teach a group session or a class, there's something new that emerges for me as well. Every time I'm with a client, yeah, it's just the continuous emergence, right? And I love what you're speaking to around the idea of romantic relationship being an opportunity to learn from each other. Uh in terms of that level of intimacy, like my desire is for incredible truth and depth, which is terrifying for people.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:53

I was wondering this, like for somebody, you talked about your one-to-one sessions where you create safety. Yeah. And for me, I was like, brilliant. Yeah, totally. But for others, immediately speaking, and almost unconsciously for them, they get triggered and they're like, You're unsafe. I need to get out of here. Yeah. And I was like, how does that show up romantically? Because I imagine in the initial days of you not being fully aware, you would trigger the shit out of some lovers. They would run off and you'd be kind of left wondering, what actually just even happened there? And it's coming from the nicest quality, which is I help people feel safe and I'm a gateway to deep vulnerability. Totally.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:29

Yeah, I think with you it was great, right? Because we were able to go like very deep very fast, right? When I work with a client initially, I won't go that deep. I will mirror and match them.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:39

And with the lover?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:40

Yeah, that's where it gets problematic. Yeah, because initially I'm attuned, right? So I'm doing the work of two nervous systems. Yeah. Right. And then are they able to attune themselves? And if they are, we can meet. And if not, I'm just still actually being a therapist at home.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:55

So you burnt out in relationships are a lot.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:58

Funny.

Finding The Work And Building A Modality

SPEAKER_02 1:01:59

Yeah. Yeah, and that's like that's on me, right? Like that's on me. But the reality is because of the level of sensitivity that I've cultivated, both through my child and through my practice, for someone to relate to me, it can be really difficult. And I get it.

unknown 1:02:16

Ah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:16

It's like I see you. I see this in myself. I'm a Taurus. So when I hook up with people, there's like deep, like, oh, come into my world, there's safety, there's security, there's generosity, there's all of this. And sometimes it can be I can find myself absolutely exhausted.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:34

Yeah, the area very directly is it's like it's gonna be difficult for you to be met, right? Like it's just get real about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:41

Yeah, yeah. That's that's like I think I wrote that in my diary. You know, when you write like that, and then you write like you clench your fist and you're like, fucking me, me.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:49

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and that's what I think you and I recognized in each other when we sat down in that room, and continuously where I have that is like this deep sense of kinship, like of being witnessed and mirrored in the level of sensitivity and attunement, right, that we've cultivated that we love, like the depth of spiritual practice, yeah, explorations with non-ordinary states of awareness and consciousness through substance andor breath. And then intimacy is a gateway to get to know like relational sexual intimacy, right? Is a as a way to get to know ourselves and the other person so fucking deeply.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:22

Yeah, I think it's tough to get clear. Like, even if I declare that that's what I'm here for, right? I want the other person to say that as well. Right. And and a lot of the times, you know, when people say I want to do the deep work, I love that you came in and said that and wanted to and did. And that doesn't happen always. People say they want to come and do the deep work, and then it's just like, yeah, okay. And yeah, are you really like this is what I, you know, I want to do the intro session because I'm like, are you sure this is what you're here for? And what I've realized is if I declare myself earlier, people have the opportunity to decline me. Yeah. Yeah, because I'm difficult to see you realize you're marmite.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:00

Yeah. That's been hard for me.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:02

Yeah, I'm probably I'm probably worse than marmite. I'm probably that really weird fermented Japanese um eel stuff. What is it? Uni. Have you had that? No. Oh, it's fucking gnarly. We'll go for it sometime.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:13

Oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:18

No, marmite, I mean marmite's too palatable for too many people. I would put myself out there, but I like the analogy.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:23

I yeah, I I find that hard. Like there was years where I really wanted to be, I really wanted to get on with everybody. I feel like I like I look back at myself and I'm like, oh, little golden retriever, look at you. Wanted to be loved by everybody. And I torture myself in the process of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:36

Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:37

And the uh the the the big growth for me was recognizing that Jamie, people like actually almost like venomously hating you for no reason. Like like we haven't come in contact.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:49

Well, for plenty of reasons, but not none of them are actually about you. They're all about themselves that they're projecting onto you.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:54

But to recognize that that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:57

Yeah, it's great, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:58

But it's not personal. No, it's not. That is like it's very liberating. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:03

Uh one uh one of my one of my uh mentors at one point told me, he's like, think of it like this, right? Break it into thirds. A third of the people are gonna love you, a third are gonna be indifferent, and a third are gonna hate you, right? That's just how it's gonna be. And uh it's definitely not. I'm like much more like a tenth of people love me, and then the rest are probably in the hate categories.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:22

And I'm okay with that. But that's a defined aware personality. Yes. When you're playing the averages, yeah, you'll go the third, the third, a third. Yeah. I think that actually the more you zone and clarify who it is that you are, who it is that you aren't, yeah, those percentages really shift.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:35

Yeah, one of the reasons people find it very difficult to be around me as well is because I can see patterns of behavior very rapidly, right? I don't generally declare that I can see them, but when I see them and then they start to cause problems, I can boundary around them now really well. But also, like when someone starts to work with me therapeutically, I can I can label them. And if I label them too fast, um, it can bring on shame. Yeah. So I have to be very careful around that. With language, yeah, people can become quite defensive. But when they're on the treatment table, I generally can work with physiology such that they don't. And that's where the modality works.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:08

I love this. I'm doing this with some clients now where they're like, you know, that they've they suddenly recognize a wound.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:14

And I'm like, don't want to give you the whole history of that wound now in 10 minutes. We can do a year's worth of therapy in 10 minutes. Are you ready for it? And it's only with the clients that are actually hope like ready to take it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like, okay. And it's amazing when you give people that like, here's where this started. Yeah, you know, you built these wounds because of this in your childhood. Yeah, here's where you try to distract yourself. Here's where you're like, here's where you're blocked, here's what you're not seeing. And here's your opportunity for growth. If you can rearrange your perspective on that, you set yourself free. Yeah, it's amazing that when people get it actually that clear, within 10 minutes, you can have an enormous breakthrough. Yeah, that's magnificent. Yeah, it's it scares the shit. I can I can understand why a lot of people don't do it because if you get it wrong, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:52

I think the pain and suffering has to have been significant enough for them to be able to want to stare it down. Right. And then with that, also there has to be like a humility alongside a deep sense of innocence, like of ourselves, right? I look back on some of the things I did and I'm like, fucking hell. And then I just kind of smile and I'm like, oh, I was just that was all I knew.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:12

I love this way of looking at myself. Um, I would say that I have lived a thousand lives, and it allows me, like I'm not dipping into the spiritual side of saying like within my 38 years, I've lived a thousand lives. And when I when I look at my 18-year-old self, I look at him as an entirely different being.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:36

And I I look at him and I'm like, oh, I sympathize with you, I'm compassionate. I want to give you a hug, Jay. Jeez, the thoughts in your head. Yeah. It's so helpful though. Yeah. It helps me detach myself from it, actually, and and really work rather than being too entangled.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:53

Yeah. Um yeah, there's compassionate distance there, right? Which is, I think, really healthy.

Safety, Energy, And Shared Healing

SPEAKER_00 1:07:58

Even a year ago, even six months ago. Yes. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:01

So helpful. Yeah. Yeah, especially when you have a willingness to raise your level of conscious awareness, right? Because as you're going to do that, you recognize that those old ways of behaving and operating were the best that we knew, right? And then at the same time, when I look back on it, I'm like, oh God. And there's a moment that I have to hold myself in the shame of realizing I was like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:23

That of like, I was doing the best that I could with the tools that I had for where I was then.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:28

Then, yeah. And now I know more. And then it's just for me, it's so easy in that gap to be like, this is just all. I just shame myself, right? And so part of my journey was to hold myself in innocence as I awoken to my bullshit.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:41

I did the same. I would look back, and what was a huge block in the way of my healing was that I was so ashamed of how I was in the past that I was like, I didn't want to see it. Noticing seeing almost that younger self as a different self altogether allowed me really get in and really, yeah, really see and really then work and really learn.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:00

I love this. Yeah, it has sort of flavors of like that compassionate distance, has flavours of the of the parts work that I like to explore as well. And it it just allows us to recognize a certain strategy or behavior as as within ourselves, but slightly separate from the self, the authentic self-energy that we have.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:18

Okay, so it's a part, and so we can twist and we can trune.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:21

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and then love it and recognize why it's there, and then also see when it comes online a little bit more, right? Um can I ask a bold thing?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:30

Yeah, go. Okay, with all your experience, with all your capacity. Yeah. This feeling that you can read somebody from their breath. Yeah. Could you take me through a journey? I'd love to almost like, you know, the way you know that I'm kind of asking for your cheat sheet. But like if I'm looking for looking at somebody, if I'm trying to almost tune into your skill set and read somebody from their breath or from their posture, still a couple of like little insights or tips you could share with me that I could piggyback off all your knowledge and experience.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:02

I'm just thinking, what's the what's the it's like, how do I sum this up? It's so well. I'm like, I'm curious to like because I I know the basics, right? That like yeah, okay. If somebody's crunched over, yeah, they're naturally they're shallow breathing, yeah. They're crunched over, yeah. They're feeling a wound, they're feeling slow down in themselves. Obviously, if somebody is open, if their chest is open, they're breathing much deeper, they're much happier in themselves, they're much more content. So, like that is this black and white. Well, that's that's a great thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:31

Like initially, right? You just give two frames, right? One is one is posture and one is breath. Yeah, right. And then so initially the external posture kind of gives us an understanding of the habituated pattern of the meat suit. So this is how the meat suit presents. And then within the meat suit, you've got breathing dynamics. So then you've got the diaphragm, pelvic floor, and the throat. And then you see how the breath is moving inside the meat suit. And those are two very different things, right? You get a lot of information from physiology, muscle, muscle tone, whether you can feel into the muscle, does it short, does it like what's the quality of it firing? Can it fire fast and slow twitch? Yeah, is it flaccid? Is it is it vibrant?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:07

Can I ask you something particular? Yeah. See my hands here? Yeah. Okay, see the way they're crossed?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:12

They look crossed because I'm conscious that I don't want somebody thinking I'm fidgeting. But if I open my hands here, you'll see that I have a callus on my hand and two nails are picking at it intensely throughout the conversation. Yeah. What does the fit show on somebody?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:24

Well, I it could be a lot of different things. Okay, I'm asking too much. But in that one, right, there's a movement pattern right here that's probably originating from up here. Right. So what we're looking for is origin of a movement pattern that probably wants to discharge.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:44

No, I've just I've I've I've noticed more and more I'm like I'm sitting more relaxed with people.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:50

I'm breathing more relaxed, but every so often there's a fidget.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:54

So I used to bite like a cut into my nail, yeah, which would create like a sharp edge, and then I would scratch stitching. Yeah. As like a fidget. Yeah. And I'm I'm there's a part of my journey which is trying to understand what is the meaning of the fidget.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:09

I would say like it's strong discharge energy that wants to move through the shoulders. And my like random guess at this time would be like next session we do, we'll go a little bit deeper into rage.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:19

Rage. Yeah. Makes a hell of a lot of sense. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, a hell of a lot of sense. I used to get into the uh I used to get into fights when I was younger. Yeah. Which kids do, and they were fun. Until that was like, no, we do not do that. But I never replaced it with like, where does that rage go?

SPEAKER_02 1:12:36

Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:37

And and so I found this time that actually if somebody would poke me, like if somebody would almost induce a rage-like state, which happens, either, you know, it's it's a bit of bullying or it's a bit of pressure or whatever it is, yeah, I could feel my body building up towards a rage, and then it was shut down.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would implode. That's it, right? So what you've spoken to is the two forces that are present in a slight tension in the system still that want to be like loved, right? So one is the rage that's coming online to protect your boundary, which is like healthy sovereign rage. Yeah. And then the other one is the shutdown response, which is a subtle shaming of that energy when it comes online. Yeah. So that's just like the those two forces. And a lot of the time that shutdown energy is coming online because it's going to keep you safe in relationship, which is needed, right? Because rage creates ruptures.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:22

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's it happened, it happened in a couple of areas where I really should have stepped up more. I should have really spoken my truth more. I should have pulled myself out of equations that I found myself my energy building, and then a shutdown. Yeah. It's like somebody actually said to me in that state, it was like you weren't even there anymore. And it's like, yeah, because I wasn't actually.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:39

Yeah, it's slight dissociation, right? But I think that's actually probably healthy. When you step back and watch the environment, it might have been that you'd made a really good assessment. That part of you that comes online that shuts you down also keeps you safe.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:52

And but what it also does is it doesn't give a level of energy and charge its time and its place to express itself. And so sometimes that can find itself showing as a little nervous fidget. Yeah, exactly, right? Yeah. That is so so it's comical. Like I have this with my family sometimes where they're like, Do you want to watch the Irish game? We love rugby in Ireland. Yeah. I think it's fucking shit. And I'm like, no, but you want to know about the meaning of this little feature.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:18

Yeah, it's what's going on. This fascinating. Just talking past each other a little bit there, right? Yeah. I love getting into this stuff with you. It's really good.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:26

I yeah, I like it. It is, it's real. We go back to this kind of marmite idea of like for me, it was real hard recognizing I don't want to have pints with my friends on a Friday night.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:36

This is it, right? And it's lonely in that way, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:38

Lonely and no interest in the match, but yeah, can we please talk about deeper levels of psycho psychology or deeper, deeper, deeper understandings of breath and what it's showing?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:46

Yeah, you have yeah, and look, we're we're outlying, right? And uh, I'm happy to be here and have these conversations with you and keep exploring it. I find it fucking fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:54

You have filled me with joy. Thank you. I like I love that I've been able to be like, let me ask you about that. Let me ask you about this. I would love to speak to you for a hell of a lot longer, but I think you have a day to attend too.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:03

Bless you, brother.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:04

Um Edward, what a pleasure. Uh, I'll leave all your links, I'll I'll share everything like that. Thanks for having me. Thank you so much. Yeah, it's been sweet. Thank you.