The University of Life & Jenna Switzer

A whiff of peppermint sets the tone for a fearless conversation about sex that actually works.

We begin by mapping the real motivations behind intimacy — escapism, recreation, connection, and the spiritual — and why friction so often arises when two people arrive in the same bed with different intentions. The shift isn’t a trick or technique; it’s language. When we name the experience we want in this moment, we create safety, integrity, and space for a genuine yes.

We also dismantle tired dating scripts. Chasing can feel thrilling, but purpose sustains attraction. A person in motion, aligned with their mission, is magnetic. When a relationship is built with intention, it becomes a capacity multiplier — sharper focus, cleaner energy, richer lives. From there, we zoom out to structure: monogamy, open relating, or something bespoke. The point isn’t the label, but the alignment. Clear agreements that reflect real values — veto power, no-sleepover boundaries, priority calls, and an honest definition of what intimacy means right now.

We speak candidly about sexual fluidity across life stages, letting go of identities that feel like cages and choosing what fits the season you’re in.

Performance struggles are reframed through the nervous system. Great sex lives at the edge between activation and surrender — you need turn-on for vitality and turn-down for connection and release. Train that switch in daily life by balancing effort with rest, and protect desire with attention hygiene: curate your inputs, reduce misaligned stimulation, and bring presence back to the person in front of you.

We share practical upgrades — breath, pelvic floor work, hip mobility, honest check-ins — and expand intimacy beyond performance, especially during high-stress periods. Most meaningful change happens long before any pill: through communication, movement, and better containers.

If you’re ready to design sex that feels true, alive, and sustainable — hit play. And when you’re done, subscribe, share, and tell us which type of intimacy you’re choosing tonight.

Transcript

Peppermint, Intros And Setting The Tone

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Jenna.

SPEAKER_02 0:02

Yes, Jamie.

SPEAKER_04 0:04

You look like you just had sex.

SPEAKER_02 0:07

Am I glowing? Can you see us?

SPEAKER_04 0:10

You are glowing.

SPEAKER_02 0:10

Oh my gosh. Well, thank you. Thank you. That's because I did.

SPEAKER_04 0:13

Okay. Welcome to the University of Life.

SPEAKER_02 0:18

That's a great introduction. I feel like it gives some context, you know?

SPEAKER_04 0:21

How else could I better introduce a not just a holistic sexologist, but the holistic sexologist?

SPEAKER_01 0:28

Aw, I love that. Um, before we get started, we're gonna do a little bit of uh peppermint snorting.

SPEAKER_04 0:34

Okay, snorting.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

Here, roll that around in your hand. Okay. So this is uh something I used to do all the time with my friend Aaron. Every time we did a podcast or a workshop, but you have to snort. It can't be like this baby, like it's gotta be like, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 0:50

Okay, well.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Get it in there.

SPEAKER_05 0:51

Well, okay.

SPEAKER_04 0:52

So yeah, yeah. Okay, so as a bit of context, um, Erin uh was our friend who was fantastic at getting high, I would say. So as you were like snore with the peppermint, I was like, oh God, what's this gonna do? Thankfully, I just feel calm and good.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Good.

SPEAKER_04 1:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

Wake you up a little.

SPEAKER_04 1:10

So how are you?

SPEAKER_01 1:11

I am excited to be here and excited to have this conversation with you.

SPEAKER_04 1:15

Well, what is the conversation? I love kind of starting things off by really asking, what's tickling your edge of curiosity at the moment?

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Okay, actually, I'm really glad you asked that because I was thinking this morning about the different types of sex we have. And almost like trying to categorize. And this is where I'm at. And so I'd love for this to be a conversation to kind of explore more where it goes. So, first, I think we have kind of a like we'll say an escapist type of sex. So, sex where we're trying to avoid feelings or numb ourselves out. So, we'll call that like an escapist kind of sex.

SPEAKER_04 1:54

I'm thinking hard, I'm thinking rough, I'm thinking coming from a stressed state.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Yes, and doing it not okay, so I'll give the rest and then we can come back. So then I think there's a second kind, which is a hobby type of sex. And this comes from uh, oh, what's that girl, the porn star who had sex with a thousand people?

SPEAKER_04 2:13

Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

What's her name?

SPEAKER_04 2:15

I don't know, but I also have Christian Bale, American psycho, performatively posing with this bicep in the middle.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

Yes, yes, okay, like that. Bonnie Blue, that's her name.

SPEAKER_04 2:24

Yes, yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:25

And she talked about how sex to her is a hobby, you know, something you get better at, something you try different things, you know. Like if I was to go surfing, I might try different size boards, I might try different waves. Same with sex as a hobby. Then I think there's a connecting sex that we have when we want to deepen our connection with the person that we're with. Then I think the last one that I would really say is a spiritual version. We want to have a deep spiritual experience in communion with the person that we're having sex with. And one of the things that I think causes us a lot of problems is that we come to the bedroom. So you come because you want to have connecting sex, and I show up because I want hobby sex, and we're physically doing the same thing, but energetically we're out of, we're out of line.

Misaligned Intentions And Post‑Orgasm Clarity

SPEAKER_04 3:15

Can I bring one more type of sex in?

SPEAKER_01 3:17

Yeah, I'd love that.

SPEAKER_04 3:18

It's the needy sex. It's the I haven't had sex in a long time. I haven't had any level of emotional connection or nourishment in a long time. I need to feel somebody's body. I crave a sense of connection. Um, do you know that?

SPEAKER_01 3:32

Yeah, I mean, to me, I would put that under avoidant because you're trying to avoid the feelings of loneliness. You're trying to avoid that sensation of being isolated.

SPEAKER_07 3:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:42

Or maybe avoidant sex isn't the right word. Maybe it needs to have a more broad term.

SPEAKER_04 3:47

I love this though, because I like I'm I wrote about this recently with regards to drugs. That, you know, everybody pulls all sorts of different medicines and stimulants and everything into the one category drugs. And they're bad. Except for some are nice and some are this, and some are outrageous. And with sex, I think this is again another term. And what I love about you and our friendship is that like it's just like a deep, deep dive into sex, which is actually I find really, really healing because the more we learn to talk into things, the more we understand things, the more we perhaps uh move away from overwhelm or disconnect and actually move to understanding. So, like what you've just shared there, yeah, that makes a whole load of sense. If somebody is like stressed out of their mind and just wants to fuck, and then somebody else is actually like, you know, they're perhaps out of sorts and they actually need a completely different level of connection. Most people don't know how to have the conversation. I I haven't known how to have that conversation. And and and and there's so much in this whole sphere, which is a really important part of our lives that we just don't even talk about. And and then we wonder why such disconnect comes from it and such issue comes from it.

SPEAKER_01 4:55

Yeah. And I think it comes from, you know, I'll assume the best. Like a lot of times you don't want to hurt the other person's feelings. Right. So if I'm feeling like I just want to have like hobby sex or I just want to have sex for the sake of fucking, you know, like then to communicate that to the other person means I'm risking them maybe saying no. So it's almost like we don't want to miss out on our opportunity. So we leave it intentionally vague. And I think that's part of what makes our sex lives so messy and so dysfunctional. And we've all had those experiences where you're intimate with someone and you come away and you just feel like off. Yeah, you know, and that can show up in different ways. That can be the sensation like postnot clarity, and immediately you want to run away. You want to be anywhere else than where you are. It can be like this sensation.

SPEAKER_04 5:48

So someone's like, do girls get post-not clarity as well?

SPEAKER_01 5:50

I would say yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

I don't I feel like this is something that your audience will have to answer because for me, absolutely. There are definitely times where I'm like, oh, I could have just done that by myself and it would have been way better. I should not, I should not have made this a two-person job.

SPEAKER_04 6:10

Yes, yes, yes. Okay, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 6:12

Yeah, no problem. So I think that if we were able to have these conversations candidly, and I think it creates a sense of integrity and a sense of safety because you know what you're getting into or what you're walking away from.

Speaking Desires And Building Safer Containers

SPEAKER_04 6:28

Do you know I this is bringing up one of my first podcasts was with a girl called Amanda Become. And she has since gone on to be a woman in the tantra scene around Europe. She's fantastic. When we were having a chat around the time of I had just broken up with someone, and I was kind of processing that broke breakup, moving on. And uh the podcast was all about uh conscious relating and relationship by design.

SPEAKER_07 6:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:51

And she was like, Jamie, do you know what? If you just want, for example, like hobby sex or performative sex, you can be open about that. And some might see it as distasteful and not for them. That's fine. But others might absolutely crave that, in which case you open up a relationship whereby if you can openly communicate, hey, I would love to just have sex. I don't want any emotional connection from that sex. I don't want any emotional expectation or relational expectation. I just want to have a fun experience with you. How does that feel?

SPEAKER_06 7:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:18

That was a conversation that I prior to that moment thought was an absolute no-no. And if I was to ever have, I would be an absolute pig. I never realized the level of freedom and fun that could come from knowing how to actually speak to, let's say, my desires when it came for different types of sex.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

Yeah. I think women are able to let themselves go a lot more when they're in a circumstance where they understand what the container is, right? Because, you know, safety emotional, physical is really important to men and women allowing themselves to experience pleasure in their body. Especially, I would say women struggle with this more that if there's no safety, then they absolutely cannot even orgasm.

Sex Work, Integrity And Dating Norms

SPEAKER_04 7:59

Wait. Yes. Side quest.

SPEAKER_01 8:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 8:02

Uh I need to like throw something at you from the from an angle.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

I'm ready.

SPEAKER_04 8:05

What are your thoughts on prostitution?

SPEAKER_01 8:06

Oh, wow, that was not what I was expecting. Um, I'm oof, that's a that's a big side quest. I'm I'm pro. I think there are many situations in which a prof having a professional is the way to go.

SPEAKER_04 8:20

So I am massively pro-prostitution as well. I think it's like I actually I scratch my head and I think how laughable that most you know, government officials and everything who would who would blockade the kind of thing are probably indulging on this line.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

Oh, a hundred percent. There's like a thing in Canada where it went to the Supreme Court about uh prostitution, and then in the end, it was like the judge like some photos or videos came out of the judge with a prostitute, and he was like, Well, guess we gotta say.

SPEAKER_04 8:48

I fucking detest this kind of this idea. Societies like to present themselves in a certain way, but then behind the behind closed doors to the others, it you know, it happens with drugs, it happens with prostitution. But I my big belief is that if prostitution were legal, it would clean up the dating scene so enormously if you think of the amount of people that are just putting on a performance of whining and dining, and this is not just men for sex. And if it was actually like, hey, look, you don't need to play that bullshit anymore. If you want sex, you can just pay for sex and enjoy it and leave.

SPEAKER_07 9:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:23

I think it would bring a much greater sense of integrity to dating. Where if somebody's dating, they're actually dating for a reason.

SPEAKER_01 9:29

Potentially, but then you run into the desire men have to chase. And if you can just put the money down and it's there, it's not the same play. It's not the same, and we love play.

SPEAKER_04 9:40

So I think here's another misconception that I I'd love to challenge you on. You said men love to chase and and women love to be chased. Sure, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:48

We like to be pursued.

SPEAKER_04 9:49

Bullshit.

SPEAKER_02 9:50

Really?

SPEAKER_04 9:50

I think bullshit.

SPEAKER_02 9:51

I oh my god, I absolutely disagree.

SPEAKER_04 9:54

Okay, so we both sit up straight and we get into it. But okay, hear me out, right? The second a guy chases a girl, devalued.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

Why?

SPEAKER_04 10:07

Because he's chasing her. Generally speaking, certainly in my impression of dating, the second a girl knows somebody wants them, they lose a bit of interest. Whereas there is nothing more appealing to a woman than a man on his mission. To quote David Data.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

Yeah, yeah, that's also sexy, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:22

Right? It's sexy, a guy who isn't chasing you, but instead a guy who is on his mission on purpose, right? And an actual fact, in those circumstances, a woman comes into her own in a different type of energy altogether. Where she starts to chase.

SPEAKER_01 10:38

I don't think a man on his purpose can't chase. So, say, you know, I'm John Smith, and my purpose is to uh grow apple trees and and create an abundance of apples for the world. I don't know, I'm making stuff up.

SPEAKER_03 10:53

And then could we have like had a bit more of an attractive thing, like maybe he runs nightclubs? I don't know.

Chase Versus Purpose And Polarity

SPEAKER_01 10:58

Okay, he never he runs nightclubs. He wants to be the most successful nightclub owner in all of Nova Scotia where I'm from.

SPEAKER_05 11:07

He's dismal already.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

Anyway, he wants the most strongest ally in his corner to accomplish this mission because he knows if he's to actually accomplish this mission, he needs to have someone that's his best friend, that's his confident, that's his bubble, and he wants that in a romantic partner. Yes. Right? So he's on this mission to be the most successful nightclub owner in Nova Scotia. And he meets a woman and he's like, This, this is what I want. And so he starts to pursue that, but not at the cost of his mission, but alongside of like a side quest, except for this side quest that took us away to another realm. But no, I I don't think those two are mutually exclusive.

SPEAKER_04 11:49

I don't think he has to sacrifice his purpose to well, I would argue that a man is most attractive when he is on his purpose.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 11:56

He loses attraction when he overly chases.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

Overly chases, yes, for sure.

SPEAKER_04 12:00

Okay, perfect. And I would think that women, generally speaking, devalue a man as soon as he starts to chase versus the man who isn't necessarily overly chasing them but is on purpose and on mission. I think there's a higher level of attraction for that person.

SPEAKER_02 12:16

Interesting.

SPEAKER_04 12:16

Yeah, so I I just love when you get a concept and the idea that, like, oh, women love to be chased and men love to chase. I'm like, I don't think actually that's necessarily true, and I don't think it necessarily serves.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

I wonder about this because I have a number of men that I know well who love the chase and hate the getting. So I was in an open relationship years ago, and one thing about this partner, bless him, is he loved the chase, loved the chase. And so part of our like romantic agreement was that I was his primary and that he would hook up with other women, but you know, we had rules around it. And it was amazing because he would be so interested in a woman that as soon as he got her, lose all interest.

SPEAKER_04 13:00

And came back to you.

SPEAKER_01 13:02

And came back to me. And I was just a part of his life consistently, and I loved it because so many different layers to to why that was sexy and fun for me. But it was an incredible, but he just loved the chase. And so it was like you can have all the chasing you want, and I will be here because I'm so content and happy in this relationship.

SPEAKER_04 13:22

Okay, so now I'm like, Really? Why? Okay, I'm pulling you back a little bit because what I do think you shared there that I am wholeheartedly believing is let's say this idea of like a me as an entrepreneurial man, I recognize I have a certain capacity. I recognize my capacity in relationship is just as far supersedes uh what it is of me solo. I think that's an interesting thing that you know sometimes what we see in terms of dating, we see like a pretty person or we see somebody that we get on with, but we don't necessarily see the enormous energetic advantage of having the right partner by your side.

SPEAKER_06 14:03

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:03

And what it means. And I've been having a I've been having a fascinating time dating different people and seeing the different ways in which people date, but particularly my Eastern European, aka Russian friends are fascinating in that they are so of the mind of if we are dating, I will commit myself to you and you will realize a greater power and capacity than you ever have with me by your side. On the other side, it's hilarious. They're like, and you will pay for everything in my life, but it will pale in comparison to what you will achieve with me backing you up.

SPEAKER_07 14:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:37

That just wasn't something in my dating realm sphere perspective growing up in Ireland.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

I think that's such a beautiful way to view it, that we get to increase each other's capacity in different ways. And those dynamics will shift depending on the person and depending on their passions and that kind of thing. But nothing like I love, you know, this. I love having people over to my house. I love like nourishing, it feels like. I, you know, I love making sure you have coconut water in your house when you landed in Bali and the time zones were shit. You know, I want to like take care, and it feels so nice to do that for me. Or sorry, to do that for people I love. And so I can see how that support and nourishment can absolutely increase your capacity because it's just taking away the side things that you now you don't have to worry about. You're so much more taken care of and and yeah, I keep using the word nourish, but like nourished on an emotional level, a physical level, uh, you know, potentially even a spiritual level.

SPEAKER_04 15:42

And contrastly, definitely a spiritual level. I would say the feminine in relationship is like the absolute anchor and orchestrator of spiritual power.

SPEAKER_00 15:51

Yeah, yeah, agreed.

Partnership As Capacity Multiplier

SPEAKER_04 15:53

I I I I hate the let's say the global norms within dating right now, that it is, you know, this idea of 50-50. I think it's such nonsense. I think this idea of like, yeah, almost couples competing with each other when it comes to their careers, again, nonsense. I love the idea of like, as a man, I want to provide. And I I think that's a kind of a thing that has come out of weakness, this idea that, like, oh no, no, sure, we're all in it together. It's like, yeah, you're missing out on the magical superpower. The magical superpower is one, a man's feeling of to provide. Because I think we as men, we thrive when our essentially our backs are against the wall, we're under pressure.

SPEAKER_07 16:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:31

I don't think it's the same in feminine. I think feminine actually thrives when it knows everything's supported. Yeah, you're okay, you're safe. Boom, blossom.

SPEAKER_07 16:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:40

Um and I think the idea of like, okay, well, let's work through things together, let's both get jobs elsewhere, is like so silly. It's like, no, if you're a couple, you're a team. And the team looks like, you know, if perhaps one person is really committing themselves to sorry, it's the feminine is really committing themselves to the masculine, saying, Hey, I'm gonna bring out the best in you. I'm gonna break your balls to bring out the best in you. I think sometimes people think like, oh god, that means what? Is she gonna cook for me? Is she gonna clean for me? No, she's gonna hold me to the highest standards that she knows I'm capable of. Yeah. And I will go out and realize that.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

Yeah. And also the masculine will hold the feminine to a standard of this is your best, you know, this is what you are capable of in the energy that's best supporting you.

SPEAKER_04 17:24

So this is where I think the common misconception of like, oh, my partner, she's such a bitch. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, no, you idiot. You're so much more capable than you're selling yourself short. And she's holding you accountable. Like, actually lean into the process, actually listen to the process. What you are being, what is happening here is you be you are being called to your greatest and highest good.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

Which is often you as a man telling us no. It's holding the standard, being like, Oh, I want to go on vacation next week. And you being like, no, I have a very important thing at work. I will not be going on vacation next week. I'm happy to accommodate this like in my schedule. Next week doesn't work for me.

SPEAKER_04 18:01

Yeah, I needed to hear that.

SPEAKER_01 18:03

Yeah. I need you in particular need to be like, because it's so sexy when we can't have what we want because of a reason. Don't just like tell me no because you're being a dick, but like tell me no because it's not aligned with your purpose, and your purpose is the most important thing, and I am there to support that and keep that standard. Be honest with me about things that have changed. So our friend uh Sash came to visit me recently. I love him so much. And uh Sash is German for context, and he said, Um, Jenna, how do you tell like a really good friend or someone that you love that they've gained weight? How do you like let them know in a really loving way? And we had this big whole conversation. And then I was like, okay, Sash, is that you're trying to tell me that I've gained weight? He's like, Yeah. And I was like, I appreciate this. It's obviously tough to hear. Not my favorite thing in the world to hear from a friend, but also I really appreciate that honesty. And I want that not only my male friends, I want it my partnerships. And like, don't tell me I'm fat when I'm PMSing. Like, you know, let's get that in the right phase of my cycle. This feedback in the most positive, loving way. But even something so tricky to navigate, like weight gain, like there needs to be no topic that is off the table.

Tradition, Choice And Modern Roles

SPEAKER_04 19:17

This, this, this, this whole idea, there needs to be no topic that is off the table. When and how did people ever give permission for things to be not okay to talk about? Especially in relationship. Yeah. It's like, okay, so let's just put a big dark hole in the midst of our connection. It's so nonsensical. I would actually say, like, to commit yourself to another is to start literally actively pulling out those blocks and really penetrating each other with that honesty, with that clarity, with that communication, because essentially you're you're in it together. I love the idea of like a commitment in a relationship, is a commitment to each other, commitment to yourself, first and foremost, that you'll do you. For your partner, if they'll do them for you, but you go both are giving a helping hand along the way. And I I love this saying a man will build a house, a woman will make the house a home. Now it's obviously right in let's say the context of a house, but it's also very right in terms of the context of a container. I love like when you're saying, No, we're not gonna go on holiday, we've got something more important, we need to go with go with that. Oh, great, okay, that's like direction, the same way you would say, like the walls of a house are direction, but then the colour or the homeliness is like, oh, okay, well, listen, if you're working on that, cool, well, let's make it enjoyable within the context of that. Um, yeah, I I love like it's a quite an interesting journey. I would say if I was reflecting on the last 10 years as a uh now single 38-year-old, I'd be like, oh my god, I have unfortunately gone through so many experiences of literally beating my heart or having my heart beaten. But the beautiful thing is that what comes out of that is deep dives into relational therapy and relational psychology and understanding of like, okay, well, what is okay, what's not. So much of what I find to be very, very fundamental, like building blocks in terms of good relationships is what's frowned upon societally. Like that idea of like, no, you shouldn't say that to your partner, and no, you know, you you know, you you should, you should you should uh you should both have your own independent careers, and you should both like there's a lot of stuff that actually really can be quite derailing.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

Yeah. I there is such a beauty in living in a day and age where we get to make these decisions. The reason we ended up here in this dichotomy of us both having careers and going in our separate directions, and hopefully it goes in the same way at some point is because women were suppressed, were forced into roles for so long. The thing is, is that when you're told you have to do something, you don't want to. Like growing up, I come from a very conservative family, and my role as a woman.

SPEAKER_05 22:09

Sorry, the holistic sex allergies comes from a very conservative family.

SPEAKER_01 22:13

I know, hard to believe, hard to believe. And in that, I was always taught, you know, your job as a woman to is to support your husband. That's it. That's that's your main. And I hated it. I felt this like sense of resentment and frustration that I could never actualize my potential because I'd spend my whole life living in someone else's shadow. And yet here we are all these years later, and I've come to a very close position to the way I was raised, and I'm here from a place of empowerment. I have made the decision that this is what I want, as opposed to I was forced into it. So I do want to say that there is something beautiful about making these choices for yourself and designing relationships that fit you, because it is possible. Like you and I are from countries that have access to wealth. Okay. If I was to fall in love with a man from a country that doesn't have the same privilege, doesn't have the same passport like privileges, you know, could that relationship not work? Because I will always have greater earning capacity. I don't believe that that's incompatible. I think that that actually can work and you create a different type of dance in that relationship. And it's just as important in whatever dynamic, I think the main important thing is that you choose what you're doing. You're proactively make the choice and you have those hard conversations. Without those hard conversations, you will lose your sexual spark. Absolutely. Because if there's no tension, if there's no that sense of polarity, that push-pull, that edge, then the sexiness eventually just dissolves, right?

SPEAKER_04 23:56

Yeah, that that whole idea around like avoiding conflict and keeping the peace relationally, uh kills lipido. It kills sexual charge, it kills sexual excitement. And that's something like, you know, there's all this this idea of like, as a couple, never go to bed and never go to sleep on an argument. Yeah. It's like, well, I'm not too sure that's true.

SPEAKER_02 24:19

Much nicer in the morning than I am at night. I really think people should sleep on things way more. I should.

Relationship By Design And Open Rules

SPEAKER_04 24:25

I I there's a saying I've said it a hundred times in this podcast. If you want to be successful, look at what everybody else is doing and do the opposite. Or certainly what's said. Yes. Like, I I love even your what you spoke to in terms of like there is ancestral or let's say generational wisdom that was passed down. For some reason, over the last 30, 40, 50 years, this idea of like we know better than than than patterns and behaviors and ideas and norms that have served society for hundreds of years. We all went it's uh uh seemingly, I think, a little bit crazy. Um, one of the interesting stats that I found was that couples who worked independent jobs or who had independent businesses were 10 times less financially successful than couples that worked together on average. I think that's really, really interesting. To work together as a couple, whether it's in the one business or just as a couple navigating through life is a superpower, is an absolute superpower. My belief. I can imagine somebody listening on it would be like and please give me an old like rough comment. But my gut, yeah, I like what you talked about. You like you you earn your wisdom, you earn your philosophy, you earn it through through trialing and experimenting, and certainly that's what's coming to me. Now I need to change the subject.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

Here we go again. I'm ready.

SPEAKER_04 25:44

You talked about relationship by design.

SPEAKER_01 25:46

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 25:46

And you talked about being open in essentially a relational container whereby you were so happy with your partner going off and fucking other people.

SPEAKER_06 25:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 25:53

Tell me more. Wait, one second. Was this partner a guy or a girl?

SPEAKER_01 25:57

It was a guy.

SPEAKER_04 25:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

Yeah. Um, we started dating. It was so so interesting because I was definitely someone who he was pursuing. And, you know, once he got me, we had this conversation. Um, he was like, I just want you to know. We we still laugh about it to this day. I think it's like close to 10 years later, maybe it was eight years ago. And he was like, I just want you to know I don't see you in my life long term. This is just like a fun fling thing for me. And I was like, okay, that's interesting. If this is just a fun fling thing for you, I don't want to do it anymore. I can have a fun fling thing with other guys that I don't have feelings for. I have feelings for you. And I'm not really interested in like doing this and me getting my heart hurt. So if if this is just like a nothing to you, then I'll just go nothing with somebody else and you can go on your way. And he was like, Yeah, fine, that's fine. You know, a week goes by and he's kind of, you know, messaging me again. And then two weeks goes by and he wants to take me out on a date. And and I was like, look, if if this is just a wham-bam, thank you, ma'am, like I'm not interested. I have, I have feelings. And he's like, No, I think there might be something here to explore. He was actually super resistant to an open relationship idea. And I was the one that was like, no, I think this is actually going to be the best fit for us because we have so much fun together, and you want to be committed to me, and you don't want to feel like you're tied down. So let's give this a go. Let's just see how it goes.

SPEAKER_04 27:23

And we really once again, and this was you taking the relationship seriously as well.

SPEAKER_01 27:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:27

I love this. Great. Sorry, I love this. Thank you. Where was that opinion in conversations when I was like 18, 19, where all I thought was monogamy? Yes. I like, I um I yeah, I love when people speak openly to their relational ideals, desires, fantasies, kinks, whatever it is, because as soon as they do, it gives you permission for whatever you might be locking up or feeling inside. And I know for me, God almighty, I did. And I like I just think, where were these conversations earlier?

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Yes. And there's, I can't decide if I think it's more relational anarchy or an open relationship. There's there's a lot of gatekeeping around polyamory and open relationships. It's like if you do this, you know, if you're in a polyamorous, you can't do this. If you're in an open relations, you can't do. And so I don't know. To me, I like the idea of relationship anarchy anarchy because to me, that means that you choose how you want each relationship in your life to be. And it's not dependent on a preconceived label or idea. So when I say open relationship, like things we decided were that I always had veto power. So if there was a girl and, you know, I thought she was a bitch or I didn't like her vibe, I could say no and he would respect that. And I always had priority. So if I called and said like I was having a rough night and I needed him, he would cancel whatever plans he had to be with me. And the other one that was really important to me was that uh he never had a sleepover. I just didn't want him waking up next to someone else because that feels very romantic and very connecting. And I wanted that for us.

SPEAKER_04 28:56

So I love hearing this because I've had conversations with others and they're like, I don't want uh, I don't want my partner to ever kiss somebody with their eyes eyes closed. Yeah, or I don't want my partner to ever kiss somebody. Or like, are we we can't do anal. Yeah, I can't do anal.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

But it is Oh yeah, we jokingly had a rule of no threesome without the other person, but that was just a joke because why would we have a threesome without the other person?

SPEAKER_04 29:18

So uh so I I love this, right? Because what I hear is individuality. Yes, I hear creativity. I don't, I think sometimes we don't realize we're almost factory-farmed humans following very, very similar lines to everybody else. And the second we step out of line, unfortunately, we're like a bunch of crabs that will all pull the other person back in line. And I I get off actually on when I hear somebody doing something just a little bit different. Whatever it is, good for them. It's so bloody rebellious to break the line, to defy the creepy crabs and actually be yourself, whatever that looks like, most especially in the most intimate area of your life, which is a relationship. Like fuck Disney for the way it has impacted so many people. It is almost handcuffed couples and said, if you are going to be together, here is what you must do. Here are like your laws of engagement. Oftentimes couples never even get to think about the way in which they've related. It's just all assumed. And I like, yeah, I find I find that really, really sad. And so I love hearing your reels. Thank you for sharing.

SPEAKER_02 30:24

Do you know what I love about this so much? Tell me more.

SPEAKER_01 30:27

Here we are, like open relating, relational anarchy. And two seconds ago, we were talking about traditional gender roles in relationships. This is what I'm talking about when I say that we're in an era where we get to make decisions. In the past, I had to be a housewife who cooked and cleaned for her husband who went to work.

Fluid Sexuality And Evolving Identities

SPEAKER_04 30:48

But bear with me because when you go into the old times, they were bold as fuck, right? And they were having extramodal affairs, but we just don't talk about it. Our mistresses are God knows what. Like there was different ideals. I I'm a big believer as well in the kind of the whitewashing of history.

SPEAKER_06 31:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 31:05

That what our idea of the past is is very much quite quite manufactured. And um, and it's it's it's actually quite hard to get a clear reading of how things were. And and not even not even let's say generationally before we were born, but actually just to try, if you take a moment to like sit with yourself now and be like, what were things actually like when I was young? What were they really like? What were the norms? What were the behaviors? What was okay then that's not okay? Can I say the one that I think is fascinating? Yes. Okay, James Bond, right? Do you ever watch any of the old James Bond movies? Of course. Right? Where Sean Connery. Sean Connery, especially. Okay, where Sean Connery meets like there's this damsel in distress, and she's crazy. And Sean Connery is James Bond walks up to her and he like tries to make a move, and she's like, No, get away from me. He slaps her in the face and she's kind of dazed, and then he kisses her, and then suddenly she opens her eyes and she's so romantically tuned and connected with him.

SPEAKER_02 32:06

Please do not try this at all.

SPEAKER_04 32:08

We're the generation that was brought up on hey, if you want to hook up, all you need to do is just grab someone, slap them, kiss them, and they're yours.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

Like that was I mean, that was slightly before us. That was slightly before us. That was like the 50s and 60s.

SPEAKER_04 32:21

But like what the hell is so different. No, no, no, no. No doubt those scenes have been whitewashed out of those movies. Yeah, but that that was the norm.

SPEAKER_01 32:30

Actually, Sean Connery, that there's a scene where he actually beats up a woman, she's a bad guy, in a movie, and it revolutionized Hollywood because going forward, all fight scenes in a movie between a man and a woman could only end with the woman winning or the woman escaping. There could not be a scene in which the man beats up the woman again because of domestic violence association.

SPEAKER_04 32:52

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 32:52

Isn't that interesting?

SPEAKER_04 32:54

I I find I loved history when I was in school. History was my just my deep indulgence. And I one thing I'm really enjoying now is cross-referencing. Like one historical count from another. Like I remember when I first came to Bali and I remember I was sitting in a sauna and I just did a quick check-in. I was like, where is everyone from here? There was 20 different nationalities in that sauna. And at the time, COVID was the big thing. So I was like, okay, could someone tell me about this? To the Swedish person over here. I'm hearing that it's been dealt with. Everyone's impressions of COVID were completely different nationally, and were completely different internationally in terms of what the Swedes were being told about what was going on in let's say Ireland, or Ireland what was being told what was going on. That blew my mind. Yeah. I um, but let's not digress. Let's get back to sex. And I I wanted to just explore, let's say, the the open relating side of things with you. But what I'm I'm hearing from you is that there's actually, it's not like, hey, I'm an open relator, it's actually like I'm fluid relationally. I, whenever I meet a partner, we kind of feel into how that relationship is with that partner and almost build a relationship true to the two of us in that moment for where we are.

Updating Sexual Scripts After College

SPEAKER_01 34:06

Yes. And it can evolve with the same person or it can evolve over the course of your life. Because I would say now that I don't feel that a relationship of that type fits me anymore. At that time, it really, really fit me. I loved that relationship. I loved the experience we had together. Um, I really hope he listens to this podcast because he'll get such a kick out of me talking about it like this. Um, we had an incredible time and I grew so much through that experience and understanding what it was that valued that mattered the most to me because, you know, perfectly candid, I've had a lot of hobby sex in my life. I've had a lot of sex that was just for fun. And to realize that what matters to me in a relationship, well, especially them, what mattered to me the most was it was someone that I could call on when times were tough, that had my back, that I could support and love, that I knew was supporting and loving me, someone who knew my family, loved my family, was with me at Christmas, wanted to make memories together. Those things were so much higher on my list of priorities than sexual stability, like sexual monogamy. Um, I found that if I could have all of these things, then our sexual relationship wasn't really threatened by being physically intimate with someone else. Now, I'm in a very different place in my life now. And I feel that the energetic fluctuations we'll say from an open, relating or non-monogamous container doesn't fit where I'm at right now. That's that's not where I am. I don't think it's bad by any stretch of the imagination. I have zero regrets. And it's just not what's gonna serve me right now in my life. And I think it's important that we take those times and we reevaluate. It doesn't mean that I disagree with who I was before or that I want to change anything in my past. It just means that right now that's not where I am.

SPEAKER_04 35:56

Uh can I ask a pokey nosy question? Go ahead. Okay, so in the past, you've been gay, straight, bye.

SPEAKER_00 36:02

Uh yeah. Yes, yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 36:06

All of the above.

SPEAKER_00 36:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:08

No, okay. So I ask it right because certainly not necessarily now, but if we go back about four or five years ago, it felt like everybody has such an unbelievably strong identity around, let's say, their sexuality. I'm gay, I'm straight, I'm bi. And perhaps the king, I'm a kingster, I'm a this, I'm a that. And what I'm hearing from you in your journey is that you're you're quite fluid. You're like evolving. Um, you what you find is that maybe at one time in your life you're into this, another time you're into that. One relationship you like it like this, another relationship you like it like that. And that's my experience too. I have found that like the idea of being one thing is just silly. And in actual fact, it's constraining. I'm an evolving being that that changes. And I think that's something as well that's not necessarily accommodated societally. The idea is if you're one thing, you're that, and you're that for life.

SPEAKER_06 36:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 36:59

And I I think that's odd. Um quite an introduction, right? But your whole space is in holistic sexology. So people are coming to you in areas of sexual like dysfunction or ill performance.

SPEAKER_07 37:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:15

And my my core belief, right, is that one, uh, it comes from the lack of uh capacity to communicate into these areas.

SPEAKER_07 37:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:25

Uh two, the uh relational containers are prisons that they find themselves in. Not just with the partner, but with themselves and set in in thinking, I'm this way. And it's like, well, actually, you were last year, but things have changed. Now you're a little bit different. I'm into this, I've only ever been into this. It's like, yeah, you were, but now things have changed. And and what happens is that people one don't like tune into how they are, but don't give themselves permission to evolve. And as a result, a big part of them gets locked up, are numbed, and that reflects itself themselves, reflects itself in their sexual performance, our enjoyment, our life.

Desire, Consent And “Nice Girl” Conditioning

SPEAKER_01 38:06

Yeah, you know what's a great example of this, I think, is men and how they have sex in college. Okay. So when you're in college and you're you're with the bros and and you're doing the bro thing and you know, hooking up with that hot girl at the bar, how however it goes, right? You have testosterone pumping an insane amount, the most amount you will probably ever have in your life. Not always, but generally speaking, right? Now, how you approach sex might be a lot of like bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. That might be how you did it. Now, you get out of university, you're, you know, we'll say mid-20s, late 20s, and and you continue to have sex, like bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. And you think that that's how sex is meant to be have because that's what worked for you when you were 19, 20, when you first started practicing. This is how you've always orgasmed. This is how you've always come. This is how you've always had really great sex. Now things in your life have changed. You're in maybe an office job, maybe your life is more consistent. Um, your hormones are shifting based on all kinds of different things. You're in a long-term committed partnership. And all of a sudden, like bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, actually doesn't work. Maybe your dick stops working. Maybe you premature ejaculate, maybe you can't get hard in the first place. And you think to yourself, like, oh my God, what's wrong with me? What's wrong with like there's something wrong with me? What is wrong with you is that you would have not evolved through your life and kept your sex life evolving. Because people think of this evolution as something big, like in my story, which is like my sexuality, like going from, you know, being completely heterosexual to being very queer to being, well, to being bi and then to being queer, and then maybe back into bisexual and now maybe mostly heterosexual. It's like, oh, those are big things. Like I can't even imagine myself going through that. You know, I think a lot of straight guys might listen to this and be like, oh, I'm I can't even imagine. But you what you can imagine is that things aren't working for you now sexually the way they did. And why is that? Have you changed the way you approach sex? Have you changed the way you have sex? Have you grown and evolved in your sexuality within the container that feels good to you? And I want to be very clear that yeah, absolutely, you can evolve the same way I've evolved, but you can also evolve the same way someone in a 30-year relationship evolves, which means that before we had kids, we did sex this way. When our kids were young, we had sex this way. Now that my kids are grown, I want to continue to evolve the sex that I'm having even with the same partner, even monogamously, even without changing, you know, who's involved. How can we continue to have sexy, fun, exciting intimacy and it evolve with us, even if it's not grandiose on those smaller levels to keep it exciting and playful and connecting?

SPEAKER_03 41:02

Yeah. Mic drop, darling. I'll calm down now.

SPEAKER_04 41:10

Yeah. Like, yeah. I that there's there's a lot to kind of I suppose sit with on that. I I'm I I I actually nearly laughed because you were like, you know, when you're back in college and you have loads of sex, I'm like, I didn't really have as much sex as I wanted in college.

SPEAKER_02 41:29

I didn't either, I don't think.

SPEAKER_04 41:31

But but I do I do get that that idea of like how outdated your impression of what sex should be, can be, and then you think, let's say you you think there's a dysfunction in an actual fact, it's like, no, you've just evolved. I think it's a really interesting one, the whole thing of let's say as a man, can't get it up. And it's like the expectations I think we we as men sometimes put on our dicks is hilarious. It's like perform, and our dicks might be like, dude, we are not even attracted to this one. And then our heart is like, Do you honestly think I feel safe with that woman? Like, we didn't with the prior one, she's three times fucking worse. It's and your brain is like, yeah, logically, none of this makes any sense.

SPEAKER_01 42:17

Your brain's like, Why are you betraying me? Your dick's like, I am doing the best I can for you. Comical.

SPEAKER_04 42:24

Uh comical. I remember I spoke with another um a sexologist years ago, and she was like, Jamie, 90% of the problems that I encounter with men could be solved if guys just stopped having sex with people they didn't want to have sex with.

SPEAKER_02 42:39

Oh my gosh, can you just say that one more time? Very close to the mic. Repeat that.

SPEAKER_04 42:45

Are you ready?

SPEAKER_02 42:46

I am so ready.

SPEAKER_04 42:47

Okay, shall I shall I put on like a seductive voice here? Okay, so Jenna darling. Ninety percent of the issues that most sexologists deal with when it comes to men could be eradicated if those men just stopped having sex with women that they don't want to have sex with.

unknown 43:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 43:07

Right? That's so good. And being sexually intimate. And and I'm gonna say for this particular context, please don't take this out of context and say that I'm I'm saying looking at pictures on Instagram is cheating. That's not what I'm saying. So for sure. When like stop being sexually intimate with porn that you don't think is beneficial to you. Stop being sexually intimate with hot girls on Instagram that you don't think is beneficial to you. I'm not saying these things are always bad, but if you're struggling with sexual attraction to someone that you know that you love, start by getting rid of the sexual messy energy in other areas of your life.

SPEAKER_04 43:45

I am getting so fucked off with this area of like so in Bali, um, and no doubt this is around the world. There are like hot pants that are engineered to accentuate an ass in the way in which it's just impossible. And there are all sorts of different boob jobs and bras that have boobs curving in ways that I just didn't, again, are unfathomable.

SPEAKER_06 44:10

Yes.

Nervous System, Performance And Rest

SPEAKER_04 44:10

And it's so aggressively fucking sexualizing that I don't care if you're a bloody monk, you are going to find yourself your attention hijacked. And this is like what? Oh, it's fun, it's it's it's sexually empowering, or it's like someone in their fine feminine power, it's like bollocks, absolute bollocks. I do think it's kind of funny. If I went to the gym with a pair of hot pants that had like a bloody tube down my left leg, accentuating a dick that was much bigger than mine. Not possible, Jimmy. Can't be possible. Is that okay? It's like that's ridiculous. Or if I had one of these plastic suits over me that had these massive pecs and abs, but that that's what's kind of going on. And it's it's I'm starting to actually recognize an affection for the way things are in the Middle East, the way people are covered up, because I'm like, there's a peacefulness in that. Now, my my my example of this um is I was in I was in San Francisco recently, or as I'm I'm I've been told I should say SF. I was in SF recently. Thank you. And what I recognized there very quickly was that very few people were dressed up, if any. Everybody was very casual, didn't see much makeup, didn't see much fancy hair. Everybody was really relaxed and casual. And as I kind of chatted and communicated with people over there, what I heard, what I really recognized is that looks aren't what it's about. It's about intellect, it's about purpose, it's about creativity, it's about intention. Those are that's the real relational collateral. Um looks are deprioritized. And in that space, I naturally felt much more calm. I naturally felt more present. And then maybe that's me. I I've no doubt I have a whole load of issues. You lock a guy up in an all-boys' boarding school for six years at 12 to 18, and he's gonna be a bit fucked up relationally.

SPEAKER_01 46:04

But I um but I don't think that is true. I keep saying I think in moments where I'm not thinking it. I know, I know that's not true.

SPEAKER_03 46:12

The part about me being fucked up. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 46:14

Exactly. That it's not because you were in an all-boys boarding school. It's not because you're fucked up that these things are intense on you. I mean, a great way, like if you open a new account on Instagram and you put it as you identify as a male and you go to your Explore page, it's all sexualized images. So it's not just you, it is a common, commonly used tool to manipulate men into what marketers want.

SPEAKER_04 46:45

And it's it's abusive. I'd actually, as I calm and if as I sit with myself, and let's say I'm actively trying to cal my nervous system and bring myself into presence, and I look at my phone, and yeah, there's non-stop sexualized content. And that's not like that's not programmed in because of my search. That's me deleting my search history and it's still coming up new. Yes. Then I walk throughout the day, and it's like there's a fashion style of let's say high sex sexualization. And uh yeah, it's it's destabilizing, it's disor, it's disorientating, and it um and relationally it's really hard because when you're you know when you're grounding yourself in and you're committing to some one person, but then every which way you look, there is somebody more crbaceous, more sexy, more performative, more this, more that. Even if those aren't priorities, little by little as they're shoved in your face, there's a hijacking going on. So yeah, I I do I do think it's there's almost like a let's say a war on uh presence and attraction in relationship. And I love what you're saying that like to not to not have an awareness around this is to enable yourself to be a victim of this. And if you are in a long-standing relationship with a person you love and you're losing attraction, great place to start. It is an awareness around this and a proactive approach to cutting some of it out.

SPEAKER_01 48:11

Yeah, and it's hard. I think I keep saying that what you're saying about the Middle East is so interesting because again, in some ways I agree, and in some ways I would say the issue is that the we don't have a choice. And not having a choice is the problem. Being able to decide for yourself how you're going to dress, how you're going to show up, um, that really matters. And I would say, as a woman, you know, again, coming from this conservative background, I remember I wasn't allowed to wear shorts that went above my knees. Okay. And uh I actually have a mole right here, and I could never wear a shirt that showed that. So it had to be like higher than this and longer than this, and it had to be more than three fingers for a strap. So I know personally what it feels like to be in constant panic mode. Like I remember this was, you know, my dad's grown and evolved since then, but bless his heart, having teenage daughters. I was maybe 14 and we were at a rest stop in the US. We were driving as a family, and I came out of the rest stop and I was walking to my parents' car. And as I walked out, some guys started like catcalling me and like, you know, hollering inappropriate things. And I got in the car and my dad was like, you were walking way too suggestively. As if it was my fault that these guys were catcalling or found me attractive. So in some ways, yeah, I think that there is uh empowerment in being conservative. And I think in other ways, it doesn't matter. You're still gonna get catcalled when you're freaking 14 years old and told that you're too, you're too provocative in the way you walk. You know? So I think that we gotta be really careful in this area because girls like me that were suppressed and and you know, taught to be scared of our own sexual power, that's not healthy either.

Regulation, Arousal Cycles And Spiritual Sex

SPEAKER_04 50:13

Yeah, there's a look, look, there's a there's very obviously a fine balance in this. And I do get the whole idea of like, well, you know what? If you're gonna sexualize me, well, fuck you, then I'll throw throw it right back. There's I do find there's um there's a balance, and uh, and perhaps the balance is just the awareness. Perhaps the balance is just the awareness and the reduction to uh stimulation that one can introduce into their life to take responsibility for themselves in that regard. Let everybody else be as they are, but just have an awareness of yourself on the impacts. Because I think a lot of the people, a lot of people don't realize the impacts. Like, you know, they don't realize that they are being uh used by social media platforms. Uh they don't realize um how sensitive their attention can be and how they actually have to really work in terms of disciplining that sensitivity. Um but can I bring you back to your work a little bit? I in terms of like I I'm I'm really curious like what are what are the big issues that come up in your work? And I ask this because I always find that for whatever issues people can kind of have, most especially with regards to their sexuality, it can find it can be very isolating, it can be very lonely. And so to hear somebody be like, oh, this happens all the time, it's like, oh, shoulders drop if you can. And sometimes that in itself is the is the simplest and easiest catalyst for somebody to actually progress and move forward.

SPEAKER_01 51:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 51:35

So what yeah, what does come up? What do you find yourself working with a lot?

SPEAKER_01 51:38

Uh big one is women not being able to orgasm or not being able to have the orgasms that they want, especially in this era of information overload. It's like, you know, Kim and Ami telling you the 12 orgasms you need to have in order to be happy, you know.

SPEAKER_04 51:55

Oh, oh, oh, like so. I I I I'm not happy with my orgasms. Oh, what's wrong with them? Well, they're they're not quite literally demolishing my house.

SPEAKER_01 52:02

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 52:03

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 52:04

If you haven't broken the bed or, you know, escorted to the ceiling, are you even having sex? So a lot of people want to have and explore new types of orgasms. That's something that I do quite a bit. For men, it's sexual dysfunction. Cam Fraser is a great sex educator, and he talks about not using that term sexual dysfunction. I can't remember the replacement term that he uses though. And I do say that that dysfunction does kind of create a bit of a yucky feeling. It's it's a dissonance, it's like a sexual dissonance between where they would like to be and where they are.

SPEAKER_04 52:38

And what does that show up as?

SPEAKER_01 52:40

So that can show up as not getting hard when you want to, not being able to maintain an erection, um, not being able to control when you finish, feeling like you finish too quickly, uh those those types of things in men in particular.

SPEAKER_04 52:55

Can I pause that and think, like, okay, so that note that I said of probably about 90% of dysfunction in men comes from them as simple simply just having wanting to have sex with people that they actually really don't want to have sex. Would that be true on the female sense as well? That a lot of dysfunction for women comes from them essentially having sex, A, when they don't want to, or B with partners that in actual fact they've lost that stimulant or that connection with.

SPEAKER_01 53:18

I would say it has to do with girls being like nice girls. It's it's women, it's women who are grown, who are taught to be the nice girls and, you know, to have sex when you're supposed to have sex, whether you like it or not, to not hurt his feelings. It's more important that he, man, the amount of women who believe that sex is only over when a man orgasms blows my mind. Women cannot wrap their head around the fact that a man does not need to come in order for or for sex to have been quote unquote successful, for it to have been a great sexual experience. It's it's this thing that they're like, well, if it doesn't matter if I don't come, but if he doesn't come, that's weird. Is it because he doesn't find me attractive? Is it because he doesn't want me? Is it because I'm not sexy enough? Nah, girl. If it's okay with you that you don't orgasm, then you need to be okay that he doesn't orgasm.

SPEAKER_07 54:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:12

And this is this thing. And it's like, well, we can't, you know, I have to keep going in sex because he hasn't come yet. Nah. If you're done having sex, you're done having sex. That's the end of it. Same with him. If he's done having sex, he's allowed to just stop.

SPEAKER_04 54:26

So would it be fair to say then that an enormity of let's say sexual issues, sexual dysfunction comes from a misunderstandings and false expectations are assumptions around how and which we should be having sex. Then let's put my one in the second as uh of people having sex when they don't want to or people they don't want to.

SPEAKER_03 54:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 54:49

Third one I found really interesting. So Jenna is a friend. Jenna's like Jenna in in my times of dis-sease, I like I pick up the phone and like Jenna, she's such a fantastic friend. I found myself um in, let's say, a really depressive spell, not being able to, not being able to have sex as I'd like, which was really like doubly upsetting. I think when you're depressed, yes, and then something else happens to depress you all the more. It's like, oh my god, but I found myself pretty depressed. And I was like, wow, I can't have sex the way I want to. I can't get as hard as I'd like, I can't stay as hard as I like, can't come when I'd like. Wow, what's going on? And I remember just at the time, you were like, Well, geez, Jamie, let's see what's going on in your life. Dum, dum, dum, dum, dum. And I was like, Oh, and she's like, why don't you give yourself a break and give yourself a month and then come back? That that was fucking fascinating as well. That people don't realize how perhaps how you perform is a reflection of where you're at in terms of your nervous system.

SPEAKER_01 55:43

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 55:44

And when you're way out of sorts, that's gonna be huge. So sometimes the simplest cure is actually just helping people calm down on themselves.

SPEAKER_01 55:50

Absolutely. And creating a safe space of intimacy that isn't necessarily penetrative sex or isn't necessarily oral sex, or it isn't the intimacy, isn't about getting to an orgasm. You know, we've all had those nights where we just want someone to hold us. We want someone to like scratch our arm or run their fingers through our hair. And that is so deeply intimate and satisfying.

Pills, Pelvic Floors And Practical Fixes

SPEAKER_04 56:15

I was hoping you were gonna get our, you know, slap you in the face or strangle you get to suffocation.

SPEAKER_01 56:20

Spit on your tits. I don't know. Brilliant. I mean, we have those nights as well. We have those nights, but we're talking about something different. And we undervalue those moments of intimacy as if having an orgasm is more important, is more intimate with a partner than being there for them when they're going through all this tough time. And I would say it is tough about being single and going through a hard time and craving that connection. And I think this comes back if we circle all the way back to where we started about these types of sex. We end up having these types of sex where we're just trying to get out of our own head. We're just trying to not feel lonely for a little while. And that can be hard on our physical system because our emotional, our nervous system is so dysregulated that being able to physically perform is really, really difficult.

SPEAKER_04 57:13

I am I I kind of, if someone was to say, Jamie, you know, what are you proud about as a coach? The big thing that would come up for me is that I love uh tackling things in a really simplified, timely manner. I'm like, you know, you could work with your therapist for a hundred hours, let's do it in 10 minutes. And um and so I'm all the time like I I I splinter my learnings out into as many different areas as I can. And one thing that I'm finding almost, let's say, universal is one's nervous system. That the regulation of your nervous system, the calming of your nervous system opens uh opens up all your pleasure centers, addresses all your issues, uh essentially enables you to have much, much better sex. When your nervous system is dysregulated out of sorts, you may have a chancery, like really good energy exerting connection, but chances are it's gonna be a bit all over the place.

SPEAKER_06 58:10

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 58:11

You mentioned one thing that I found really interesting, we haven't touched on it at all, is that like you were like, and there's the other type of sex, which is like a deep spiritual communion. Yes, and I've had some sexual experiences where it's like I left my body, I found myself surfing through the stars. I was like, Where the fuck have I gone?

SPEAKER_06 58:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 58:32

And my belief is that that was entered into through a dramatic calming of my nervous system.

SPEAKER_01 58:38

Um I would challenge this a little tiny bit in how you're describing the nervous system because in order for us to be able to have good sex, it's not we need to be able to drop into one like the calm nervous system, like sympathetic or parasympathetic. It's that you need to be able to move from one to the other with ease. I think that's what a regulated nervous system really is. Not that you're in a constant state of calm chill, but you're able to turn on and get shit done and turn off. And you don't trip on your way from one to the other and you don't accidentally fall. So, a great example is when I was teaching yoga for years, people would fall asleep in shavasana because the only time they knew how to be calm was when it was time to go to bed. So as soon as shivasana happened and there's a relaxing environment, they've already physically exerted and they relaxed, they can't stay conscious. They immediately fall asleep. And that's because there are what I would refer to as dysregulated. They're not able to move through a calm nervous system, an active, you know, sympathetic, fight or flight moving cylinders firing in your brain, and then relax without completely losing it. And for them to come back into that sympathetic state of like, okay, now I'm gonna go on with the rest of my day. And obviously, we're in various states of this, right? In an emergency, we're in this heightened sympathetic state. And when we're going to sleep, we're in this really heightened state of parasympathetic. It's really important. So in order for your like penis to work, you need to have blood flow, circulation, things need to be moving, right? In order for you to ejaculate, you need to be able to relax and feel safe. So it's like this very interesting dance of nervous system that needs to happen in order for you to be able to have really good sex that feels full body and that allows you to access this more spiritual experience.

Movement, Breath And Feel‑Good Bodies

SPEAKER_04 1:00:37

Wow. Um wow. I wow. I'm doing a lot of work with somebody who's who's got really challenging PTSD and suffering dramatic overwhelm. And there's a practice that we've come to, which is essentially in the gym going on to like a treadmill, one of those curved treadmills that you can really set the pace of. And imagining up all the stressors that bring him to that point of overwhelm. And for 30 seconds, very consciously, almost self-torturing with all those issues that come up and fully 100% exerting his power on that treadmill. And bringing himself to an enormous state of disruption, almost to that point of overwhelm, and then hopping off the treadmill and calming for three minutes and completely calming down and then repeating the process five times over. And what we get there is like a self-induced state of overwhelm with huge exertion.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:35

And the more we enter into that period, the more comfortable we get in that period. But also, because it's in a controlled environment, the body very quickly calms and regulates. Yes. Which again brings a familiarity of don't worry, if ever you're in this situation, we get out of it very, very quickly. So your definition there uh brings a greater depth to what I shared. And my I I I actually wasn't holding on to it dearly enough, is that it's not all just about having a fantastically calm nervous system. No, it's about being able to cycle through the various stages of your nervous system because sometimes you will need to be at full whack to engage with life in its fullest capacity. And then other times you need to come down. The fact I do think there's an another part, which is that like if you want to have a rough, fantastic, high exertion exerted sexual experience, that's going to be at the high stress point of your nervous system. If you perhaps do want to dip into those more meditative spiritual sexual experiences, God bless our tantric friends, then that's at that low, low, low level of calm and ease within your nervous system, which again, I think we have to really work to achieve those states.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:40

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:41

And so then a fantastic nervous system is not one that is calm, but it is one which we within which you have full access to and capacity to fluidly move between those stages.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:52

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:54

Beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:54

Yeah, it's super powerful. It leads to amazing sex, amazing orgasms, amazing um, like I want to say, diversity of experiences that are available to you. Yeah. Right. And yeah, I mean, isn't that like that's that's what we want is we want to be able to have all those experiences.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:11

So we're boiling down a lot of the work, like a lot of the big space of holistic sexology. Um, we haven't talked about tablets.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:18

We haven't talked about what?

SPEAKER_04 1:03:19

We haven't talked about tablets, we haven't talked about surgeries, we've actually just talked about like tuning into your body.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:26

Uh tuning it tuning into your partner, perhaps, really, really good communication, really good understanding in terms of what's normal, what perhaps isn't, giving yourself space. It's funny that the first thing most people would jump to, which is a tablet or is a surgery or something like that. When in actual fact, like there is so much that can be done well in advance of that.

Pleasure As Life Fuel And Intention

SPEAKER_01 1:03:46

Yeah. So I mean, the easiest thing to fix if you have, you know, a headache is to take a pill rather than, you know, closing your eyes and resting for 20 minutes. It's way faster to take a pill, we think. And there is a space. Wow, this is a really interesting analogy, but in the same way that I believe there's a space for prostitution, I think there's a space for these pills that people take to help men in particular that help with erection. I I'm not against them. I see them as an issue when you rely on it, when you are kind of of the headspace, oh, if I want to have a good time, I better grab, I better pop a pill for later. If that's where you're at, that's the problem. And a lot of men will say, Oh, it's age. It's not age. It's it's really not. Uh, you know, women also will toss things up to age. It's like, oh, as I age, you know, I don't really want to have sex. It's these are these are not age things. They're, I don't know why we've been fed this, that as you get older, like your sex life has to go to shit. It is just absolutely not true. Some of my clients, I have a woman in her 60s, a guy, he's gotta be mid to late 60s, and they're having the best sex of their lives these days. And, you know, he used to have to take pills, now never. It's not even something he has to worry about. You know, she used to have sex because it was her responsibility to like have him enjoy it. And now she does it because she loves it and she knows what she likes and she does the sexy things that turn her on. And I think when we use a pill, we affirm to our mind that we have to outsource our pleasure. And the truth is that the more you get to know your body, your mind, your energy, the more you can be in control of that. And, you know, something I've shared with you is these even like these simple physical pelvic floor exercises that are so simple and easy, and you do them for a week and you feel a difference.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:44

Yeah, it's it's quite funny. I I do this. So my gym routine is about 50% stretching. And uh and it's taken from like deep dives into Ashtanga yoga, vinyasi yoga, god knows what the hell else the kind of yoga. Oh my god. Um, but then it moved into like functional movements, then it took some elements of kind of tantric work, and now it's taken some elements of you. God bless people around me in the gym. But but I the one thing which is just so unbelievably obvious, and I I only actually really got it through yoga, which yoga, like the asanas or the positions, it's all about opening up your body, opening up blood flow, so that as you breathe into your body and breathe into your lungs, you can get oxygen into your blood. And then as you open up your body, that blood can circulate right throughout your body, can clear out what's not necessary and revitalize what's what is. And I it just made so much sense that, oh, yeah, okay, of course, if you're feeling a little bit blocked up, which perhaps anybody might be if they're sitting at a desk for eight, nine, ten hours a day, learning to really open up your hips, learning to really shake out your tummy or twist or shake. Um, I had great fun over in Rio, being like, how can I like move my hips the way you guys do? But of course, you're gonna feel like one, a hell of a lot lighter. Um, but I at the same time, too, hell of a lot sexier.

SPEAKER_07 1:07:05

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:06

Um, which has an interesting way of like circulating into your confidence and everything. I I there's probably another theme to this conversation which I haven't quite caught on with, but like in the whole coaching space, I remember somebody asked me, they're like, Jamie, why are you interested in the relational and the sexual space so much? And I was like, Oh, because everything comes back to it. Like, I actually at the heart of it, we're sexual beings. Um, our energy is harnessed within our sexual energy. And if there's a block there, it reflects itself everywhere. I kind of think it's kind of funny. Sometimes people are like, you know, I have my professional life, I have my personal life. It's like, no, you have your life. Yes, they're all absolutely interconnected. And one of the more interesting things I find is that if somebody is devoid of pleasure in their relational or sexual life, that very quickly starts to span out into every other area of their life. They may compensate, do a load of drugs, do a load of partying, and then numb.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:03

And oftentimes, if you can help somebody invite in more personal pleasure into their own, let's say, sexual sphere or relational sphere, it's quite fascinating how a whole load more happiness, pleasure, enjoyment, and fun starts showing up in every other aspect of their life.

Standards, Initiation And Holding The Line

SPEAKER_01 1:08:19

Absolutely. A great example is how we started this podcast with you making that joke about like, wow, you look uh like you just had sex. I think it's Kim and Nami who's really coins the term like a well-fucked woman. And it's true. Uh, you know this, that I've been very intentional about my sexual energy the last five months, very, very focused, very intentional, very different than how I've done it in the past because I've had a very intense year. And it's been, it's been rough in many ways. We, we lost our dear friend Aaron. Um, there's just been a lot of a lot of things that have happened. And so this year, in particular, these last five months, I've been very intentional. I don't want to just have hobby sex. I want this to be something that I'm intentionally curating in my life in a connecting way because I don't have spare energy right now. I don't have the capacity to hold sexual playfulness and fun for the sake of sexual playfulness and fun right now. And because of that, when I did have this experience that was so deeply connecting and so meaningful and so sexy and hot and incredible, I know I have a different energy. I feel it in myself. And it's so different when it's intentional, as opposed to this messy sensation of our energy just going in a million different ways. Like we were talking about with intention and and and sorry, attention, not intention, and like, you know, our our eyes in a million different places and lust and and and distraction. It's such a different feeling and it's so powerful and can really create a complete different aura, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:03

Yeah, yeah. And I like I I think there's a funny thing societally where everybody wants to be so bloody independent. And like, good for you. That idea, if you want to go fast, go alone. Yeah, but if you want to go far, go together. And I do feel that there is a superpower that comes from the right connection. Of course, the wrong connection, I think all of us have experienced it at some stage, and it's absolutely detrimental. But on the other side, you find the right partner in your life, you find the right sexual connection, relational connection, you just operate on a different, uh different level altogether.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:35

And having discernment between, because I have a lot of guy friends. You and I are very, very close. And having that discernment of these relationships play this role in my life. That's something that I was very guilty of for a long time. Is, you know, if I have a guy that I'm really, really close with, then maybe we can have casual sex because like it can just all be, but this is back to that messy energy, that not being intentional.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:58

There is an insinuation there that you have sex with your casual friends. And just to clarify things, we have not had sex, have not had that pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:05

No, no, this would have been like pre-me moving to Bali. When I'm when I moved to Bali and I started to get introduced to some very incredible, like good-looking, successful, just incredible, incredible men, I very quickly realized that I did not want to have sex with anybody unless it was going to be in a long-term committed relationship. And the men that have been in my life who have really shown me what an incredible man really is, what a standard I can hold for the men in my life. And none of these men, like I've not had sex with any of them. So they're not, they're not doing all these kind, generous, loving things because they want to get laid. They're doing it because that's who they are as men. And that really raised the standard for me and what I expect in a partner and what I believe I deserve.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:56

Would you call that an initiation?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:59

Yeah. I had the two.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:02

Recently I had a connection that blew the roof off what I thought was possible relationally. And it was really, it was really um really confronting, really disorientating because I recognized in a number of spheres how I had settled. Uh I had yeah, I had settled for less than what I truly want. What was really interesting was recognizing Oh, I see Jamie the past. I see how he showed up. That's him when he doesn't feel met. When he didn't know what being met was actually even like. Subsequent to that connection, now it's like, oof, I have a different standard across the board. I actually don't want to settle for less either because I know me when I don't feel met shows up as a me that I actually don't really like too much. There's parts of him I'm like, let's not foster that. That's fascinating. And I I I'm I I sometimes think, let's say, in the spiritual or the wellness world, there's certain words or terms that can be quite misunderstood, but initiation comes to mind that when you meet somebody that meets you and you realize what it's like to feel met and how you show up in the world as a result, it's very hard to settle for less.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:12

And I think it's that saying when you know better, you do better. And when you up level up level, that's not really when you expand your awareness into a new realm, the stupidest thing you can do is try and like hide and act like you never knew.

SPEAKER_07 1:13:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:30

You have to continue to grow. And what's really a bummer for people like you and I is that the more you expand, the fewer people that are out there with you.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:41

Yeah. And the harder it is to hold those standards.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:45

Absolutely.

Closing Reflections And Appreciation

SPEAKER_04 1:13:46

I there's a kind of a thought that comes to mind when I recognize the power of, let's say, an initiation in the relational field. But it's also in terms of a living capacity. Like I I never understood why some people spend the whole year saving up for a week's holiday. I get it now. Because you get a taste for that feeling, if you get that sensation into your body, it will inspire a different way of working for going forward. The same way like it shows up in work, it shows up with how you treat yourself with food or anything like there's so many. Uh there's such an important implication that comes from meeting yourself fully. And unfortunately, the opposite when you let yourself down or you let your s standards slip. Yeah. Um Jenna, you are a joy to talk with.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:34

Jamie, so are you.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:37

Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:39

My absolute pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:42

Meow meow.