Demon: The Fallen - Angels, Faith and a Truncated Release Schedule

What if rebellion began as an act of love?  Demon: the Fallen was the final game in the original World of Darkness line, and we chart it's - painfully - short history.  Was it fun to play fallen angels from the dawn of time, or was this just more angst hiding under a different colour of trenchcoat?  

Join us to find out!

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EMAIL: roll.to.save.pod@gmail.com
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WEBSITE: https://rolltosave.blog

HOSTS: Iain Wilson, Steve McGarrity, Jason Downey
BACKGROUND MUSIC: David Renada (Find him at: davidrendamusic@gmail.com or on his web page).
TITLE, BREAK & CLOSEOUT MUSIC: Xylo-Ziko (Find them on their web page).

Chapters

• 3:12 Angels, Houses, And The Fall
• 6:24 Escape From The Abyss And Possession
• 7:39 Faith, Torment, And Moral Choices
• 10:23 Apocalyptic Forms And Pacts
• 11:38 Cosmology And Canon Tensions
• 12:46 Layout Gripes And Missing Politics
• 14:09 Factions And Infernal Courts
• 15:41 Antagonists And Earthbound
• 16:43 Crossover Silence In Core Rules
• 17:19 Launch, Promo Comic, And Core Book
• 18:30 Storyteller Companion
• 19:33 City Of Angels
• 21:44 Fear to Tread
• 22:28 Saviors and Destroyers
• 23:30 Players' Guide
• 24:34 Damned and Deceived
• 25:17 The Earthbound
• 26:11 Houses of the Fallen / Days of Fire
• 27:43 Time Of Judgment
• 28:46 Verdict: Strengths And Styles Of Play
• 31:12 Flaws, Missed LARP, And Closure
• 32:52 Show Announcements And How To Support
• 33:02 Where To Find It And Final Notes

Transcript

Iain: 0:09

Welcome to Roll to Save, the RPG history. Hello and welcome to another episode of Roll to Save. Today we're tackling yet another World of Darkness game, this time Demon the Fallen. Released in November of 2002, Demon holds the rather unfortunate distinction of having the shortest run of any World of Darkness game, lasting barely two years before the entire classic World of Darkness came crashing to a halt in 2004. Despite this truncated lifespan, Demon managed to carve out something genuinely unique in the rather crowded by that point supernatural RPG landscape. I do have a bit of a soft spot for this game. When it came out, I was deep into the world of darkness ecosystem, having spent years running Vampire and also playing games like Wraith, Mage, and Hunter. And when I heard that White Wolf was releasing a game where you played actual fallen angels, beings who'd participated in the creation of reality itself, I was intrigued and also somewhat sceptical. After all, a game dealing with biblical mythology could be cool. It also could be fraught with potential pitfalls. If you got it wrong, you'd probably end up with something that either felt really preachy or disrespectful, neither of which makes for particularly enjoyable gaming. Thankfully, when I finally got my hands on the core rule book, I found something a bit more nuanced than what I'd expected. This wasn't a game where you played cartoon devils with pitchforks. Instead, it was a surprisingly thoughtful exploration of rebellion, consequence, and the possibility of redemption. The following weren't simply evil spirits who wanted to corrupt humanity, although you could play them like that. Many of them had rebelled against God because they loved humanity too much. They wanted to give them knowledge and awareness before the creator deemed them ready. These were beings wrestling with millennia of guilt, torment, and the crushing weight of their own failures. That's a far cry from the cackling antagonist you might expect. Of course, there were some complaints at the time that the characters were overpowered compared to other World of Darkness splats, but honestly, that felt entirely appropriate. These were immortal spirits from the dawn of time, after all, who'd been involved in creating reality itself. They should feel powerful. The challenge wasn't in making them weak enough to fit in with the other game lines, it was in exploring what these ancient beings do with that power now that they finally escaped to prison. So, grab your beverage of choice and perhaps a snack if you feel like it. Sit back and relax as we dive into the history of Demon the Fallen. Released in November 2002, Demon the Fallen took a very interesting approach to its background. Unlike most World of Darkness games whose history sections were a mix of half-truths, legends, and conspiracies, Demon the Fallen flat out told you what happened in the past. After all, your character that you'll be playing has literally been around since the dawn of time, since Fiat Lux, when God said let there be light. Therefore, it's more important to have a firmed up background section because chances are your character will remember some of these events, events that humanity has passed off as myth and legend. So, what is the background of Demon the Fallen? Well, the basic premise is this: at the beginning of time, God created angels called Elohim and tasked them with building and maintaining reality. These were divided into seven houses, each responsible for certain aspects of creation. For example, you had the Namaru, who were the heralds and the leaders, the Asharu, who were the guardians of the firmament, who granted the breath of life, and all the way down to the Halaku, who were the angels of death, those who guided the souls to their final rest. Each one of them was essentially the splat that players would be playing, but it gave a really broad breadth of character types that people could choose from. Now, when God created humanity in this setting, he placed Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, but he kept them in a state of innocent ignorance. They had potential for awareness and knowledge, but God hadn't yet unlocked that, it seems. Some of the angels, led by Lucifer, believed this was a mistake. They foresaw humanity's divine potential being wasted and decided to act. They had a big debate deciding whether they should intervene against their creator's wishes, and ultimately they decided yes, we should do that, and revealed forbidden knowledge to humanity. This act of rebellion led to an eons-long war between the loyal angels and the fallen, known as the Age of Wrath. And surprise, surprise, given it's a game about demons, the rebels lost and they were cast into hell, or as it calls it in this setting, the Abyss, a prison hidden beneath the lands of the dead, and there they remained for countless millennia. Their suffering there twisted them, and this manifests in the game as something called torment. The higher a demon's torment, the more their angelic nature has been corrupted by pain and bitterness and loss. Fast forward to the present day, or rather 1999, because that was the present day in the world of darkness setting. Humanity has moved on, they've forgotten all about the war, the fallen, etc. They've passed off as myth and legend and have built into their religions. But the barriers around the abyss have begun to crack. This is directly tied to the sixth great maelstrom, an event from Wraith the Oblivion. The weakest of the fallen have managed to squeeze through these cracks and return to the mortal worlds. However, because the world has changed and people don't have as much faith as before, they can't manifest as they once did. They can't have these bodies of pure faith. Instead, they need hosts, which are mortal bodies with weakened souls. These might be comatose patients, drug addicts, deeply depressed, or those on the verge of suicide, or maybe even someone who's just recently died. The demon slips in, merges with the host memories, and starts their new existence. This whole possession piece created fascinating roleplay opportunities. Your character isn't just a demon, they're a fusion of this ancient celestial being and a very broken human. The human memories act as a buffer against the full horror of what the demon experienced in the abyss, but they also create emotional entanglements. Maybe you're hosted a family, a career, debts, enemies, a job. All that is your problem now. So that's the setting. Demons possessing humans wandering around a fallen and broken world, a world that's devoid of faith, and probably thinking that we had a lot to do with it ending up this way, and then deciding how they want to interact with it. So pretty cool setting. What about the system? Well, let's start with the most obvious part of it, the ubiquitous supernatural fuel stat that every World of Darkness game has. In Demon's case, this is called Faith, and this is the juice that runs their supernatural engine. All World of Darkness games had something like this: Vampires had blood, Wraiths had Pathos, Changeling had Glamour, Werewolf had Gnosis, etc. etc. And in most cases, there was some sort of interaction with mortals involved to get it. Vampires had to drink blood, for example, to get more blood points, Wraiths had to indulge their passions and feel emotions in order to generate pathos. In the case of faith, demons required belief. Humans who believed in the demon, who worshipped them, or simply acknowledged their existence provided faith. However, this differed from some of the other World of Darkness games and it created an interesting little wrinkle in the setting. Most other supernaturals in the World of Darkness setting had some sort of rule that basically said you will not reveal yourself to humans. Vampires had their masquerade, werewolves had the veil, wraiths had their dictum mortem. In Demon, no such rule existed. Now, given that demons got their power literally from human belief, this begged the question: at what point did the fallen start revealing themselves en masse to humanity to harvest more faith? This made the setting feel inherently apocalyptic, almost as if it was designed to escalate towards some grand revelation. Now the counterpart to faith was torment. I mentioned this earlier. It worked somewhat like humanity in vampire, but it was flipped the other way. Whereas in vampire, having high humanity was good and low humanity was bad, and demon you wanted it the other way around. Low torment was good, high torment was bad, but it also operated more like a dual-edged sword in a mechanical way. Your demon's powers, the lows, had different effects depending on your torment level. High torment versions of abilities were often more destructive, but they came with rather nasty side effects. Low torment versions were generally more beneficial but less immediately powerful. This meant that even the most basic uses of your supernatural abilities could become moral choices. There was also something called the apocalyptic form that deserves special mention. Each demon could manifest aspects of your true celestial self, taking on an angelic or demonic visage depending on their torment level. These forms came with various abilities and could be customised through the course of play. The visual contrast between a low torment demon's beautiful radiant appearance and a high torment demon's nightmarish aspect really drove home the game's themes of being twisted by torment and regret. Now I mentioned faith before, these manifested in the form of pacts and thralls, and this was a real core element to the game. Demons could make deals with mortals, granting them supernatural abilities in exchange for service and more importantly, faith. These thralls became bound to the demon and could be enhanced with various powers. The whole Faustian bargain angle was obviously central to the setting, and the game provided rules for creating and maintaining these dark pacts. There was also the ability for demons to leech faith from these mortals in a pinch, even to the point of draining them of their health to keep the demon more powerful. Obviously, you didn't want to do that, you have more powerful thralls, but it did mean that if a demon was pressed and pushed into a corner, they could be a lot more powerful than unsuspecting hunters might think they are. Mechanics aside, one thing we do need to talk about though is demon's cosmology. I alluded to this before, but the game assumes a Judeo-Christian creation myth, which is fine, but it then attempts some rather elaborate mental gymnastics to explain how this could coexist with the origin stories from the other world of Darkness games. The explanation involves reality being far more fluid in the ancient past with multiple contradictory truths existing simultaneously. Basically, the game is saying that creationism and evolution somehow both happened at the same time during those primal days. Let's be honest, this explanation is a little bit hand-wavy. It works well enough if you don't poke at it too hard, but it's clearly an attempt to patch over the fundamental incompatibility having one game line built around biblical cosmology, whilst others have completely different origin stories. It's a bit like games in fiction that try to explain how the impossible works with explanations like oh yeah it was magic or oh yeah it was nanites. Another little gripe I have though is about the way the book is laid out and presented. Now, as I alluded to before, it comes with an extensive background section. I think it's like over 40 pages detailing everything from the creation of World all the way through the war with heaven and the long imprisonment in the abyss. It's a really genuinely compelling read, it's got a lot of tragedy in it, and there's a lot of philosophical weight behind people's decisions. However, the game then points out the most player character demons can't actually remember much of this, their memories are fragmented by millennia of torment. So, what this means is there was a whole load of front-loaded space given to background, then you jump into character creation and realise you didn't actually need to read half of that stuff. From an organizational perspective, I think it would have made much more sense to have a much more limited background section and include all the real background stuff in a storyteller section. I was also rather puzzled by the main rule book's approach to demonic society. The game includes descriptions of the legions, which were the military organizations for the war with heaven, and factions, which were the philosophical groupings that emerged during the demons' imprisonment in the abyss. You had things like the Faustians who wanted to uplift humanity to use them against God, the cryptics who sought knowledge about what actually happened and why. There were the Luciferans who still sought their absent leader, the raveners who wanted to destroy everything, including themselves, and the reconcilers who sought redemption with God. All of this was super interesting, but the rule book never actually explained how demonic courts should be structured or how political play should work. This was a significant oversight for a game that was really well suited to political intrigue. Now, the rules for infernal courts eventually appeared in the City of Angels supplement rather than the core book though, which felt like a bit of a miss. Comparing it to Vampire, at least the core rulebook for Vampire gave you an idea of what a cameraless city should work like in the main rulebook, even if it took Chicago by Night to fully flesh things out. She'd also mentioned that Demon received no Mind's Eye Theatre support during its entire run. No LARP rolls whatsoever. This was a genuine shame because the game's social dynamics and political potential would have translated beautifully to live action. Honestly, after reading the main rule book, I thought, why isn't a LARP rules next to Vampire? This is the setting most suited to live action play, mainly because it is so political. I actually ended up writing my own LARP rules for it because I really wanted to run a Demon LARP and it turned out to be an awful lot of fun, but it was just frustrating that this was never officially fully supported. Closing out my section on gripes, I have to talk about the games or rather the main rule books approach to antagonists. The main antagonists presented in the core book were demon hunters, which were mortals like Exorcists, Other Fallen, and the Earthbound in their cults. This last group deserves a bit of explanation for people who aren't familiar. The Earthbound were demons who had been summoned from the abyss centuries ago through human sorcery, but because they didn't have human hosts, they were bound into objects like statues or sacred sites instead. And without a human soul to buffer their experiences, these demons had gone completely mad and become completely monstrous. They were immensely powerful but utterly alien, operating on agendas that made sense only to their maddened fractured minds. So as a result, they made excellent villains along with their cultists that supported them. However, one notable absence from the core rules was detailed information on how other world of darkness supernaturals would interact with the fallen. This was really curious, especially given how tied in Demon was with other World of Darkness games metaplots. Vampires and werewolves and mages they all existed in the same setting, but the main rulebook only focused on internal conflicts. It wasn't necessarily a problem, it kept the game focused, but it did mean that crossover play required additional work from the storyteller. It was also, as far as I'm aware, the first time that the other game lines had been excluded from the main rulebook of another main game. Anyway, Ian's gripes aside, let's get into the publication history proper. As I mentioned, Demon had the shortest run of any World of Darkness game line, but yet White Wolf managed to pack in quite a lot in those barely two years. In 2002, the game's launch was preceded by a rather delightful promotional comic in September 2002. It was designed as a satire of those anti-DD pamphlets that circulated in the 1980s, the ones warning parents that roleplaying games were gateways to actual Satanism. The Demon Promo comic played this completely straight faced, presenting itself as a warning from a fictional father Ramos of the Eternal Grace Congregational Church about the dangers of roleplaying, even linked to a fake website continuing the joke. Given that you were literally playing demons in this game, the parity was particularly pointed. But the main rulebook, Demon the Fallen, arrived in November 2002. It was a substantial hardback, running to over 250 pages, and it included everything you'd expect from the World of Darkness core book, character creation, the extensive setting chapters I mentioned earlier, rules for laws, which were the powers and apocalyptic forms, and systems for running the game. The recommended source material in the book gives you a good sense of the intended tone. Obviously, Paradise Lost by Milton, the Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis, American Gods by Neil Gaiman, and films like The Devil's Advocate and Angel Heart. The prologue fiction followed a demon named Mel Bogartha who possessed a stage actor and was grappling with his new existence and it set the mood perfectly. Also in November, White Wolf released a set of demon dice, because of course he did. Every game line needed its own unique dice, and they also released the first fiction for the line, Lucifer's Shadow, an anthology of short fiction exploring various aspects of the setting. December 2002 brought the Demon's Storyteller Companion. It came with a storyteller screen and it expanded on several crucial areas. It provided much more detail on the Earthbound, explaining their history, nature, and various agendas. It also deepened the information on factions, exploring how these philosophical groupings functioned in practice. And there was probably my favourite chapter, one on the spirit realm, explaining how the slayer named Charon had helped create the Shadowlands as a place to hide the dead from Heaven's gaze. This tied demon directly into Wraith the Oblivion's cosmology and helped justify the settings' interconnections. The book also contained a chapter called Monsters, which was basically how the fallen play with the other Denzens of the World of Darkness. So we had rules, for example, for hunters, mages, vampires, werewolves, etc. There was also a bestery where if you really wanted, you could get stats for things like alligators, bears, big cats, and boars, amongst other creatures, which was a nice little touch. I guess demons need to keep pets too, right? The bulk of demons' releases came in 2003. It's one full calendar year of existence. February saw the release of City of Angels, a source book detailing Los Angeles and its demonic population. This was a significant release for several reasons. Firstly, Los Angeles was where Lucifer himself had reportedly settled after the war, wandering the earth aimlessly until finally stopping in the City of Angels. His presence, even though he wasn't directly appearing in Chronicles, cast a long shadow over everything happening there. Secondly, this book finally provided the rules for the infernal courts that the main rule book had lacked. It detailed the Pentarchy system with its five ministries and explained how demons organised themselves politically. If you wanted to run a political demon game, and honestly, Demon was incredibly well suited to political play, this book was essential. This book also covered the history of Ellie's supernatural underworld, the current factions vying for control, and provided write-ups of numerous fallen inhabiting the city. The intrigue possibilities were extensive. March 2003 brought Fear to Tread, a chronicle source book designed as a companion to City of Angels. It contained three-linked scenarios set in Los Angeles. Suffered the Children, saw the players dealing with Fallout from an Earthbound-caused incident at school for troubled teens, into the fire, pitied the player characters against demon hunters, and the Judas Kiss involved investigating a charity hiding servants of another earthbound. There was a lot here that players could get their teeth into and I could keep a chronicle running for months. The same month I also saw the release of Ashes and Angel Wings, the first novel in the trilogy of the Fallen. April brought us Saviours and Destroyers, a source book focused on demon hunters. This book explored various humans who had dedicated themselves to fighting the fallen, it covered their origins, their methods, and crucially provided rules for creating exorcist characters. These could serve as antagonists in a standard demon chronicle, or intriguingly, as player characters for groups wanting to experience a setting from the other side. The book included systems for researching and performing different types of exorcisms as well as sacred items that hunters could employ. There was, in typical white wolf fashion, fiction interspersed throughout and followed various hunters' stories, from a young man dealing with a possessed relative to former thralls seeking revenge on their demonic masters. And in the same month, April, the second novel in the trilogy of the Fallen, The Seven Deadlies, was also released. June of 2003 brought a massive release. No, I'm not talking about the Demon The Fallen Mouse Pad that was released that month, but the Demon Players Guide, a substantial expansion for player options. It opened with the usual FEQ and arata that a lot of White Wolf publications were doing at that time, but this book was intended to help players flesh out both the demonic and human aspects of their characters, providing expanded information on true names, the history of the rebellion, and explored how gaining a human host affected a fallen psychology. From a rules standpoint, one major addition was a comprehensive list of merits and flaws, something that the core book had notably lacked. These covered infernal, physical, social, mental, legal, and economic aspects of characters. The book also included detailed rules for customising apocalyptic forms, allowing players to create truly personalised, angelic and monstrous visages. An expanded system for creating infernal relics and rules for combining lore paths through rituals rounded out the mechanical additions. July gave us the final novel in the trilogy of the Fallen, Wreckage of Paradise, and August saw Damned and Deceived, which focused entirely on the relationship between Fallen and their mortal thralls. This was essentially a deep dive into the Faustine bargain mechanics. Who do demons seek as potential thralls? What gifts do they offer? Can a mortal make a deal with a demon and survive with the soul intact? The book was structured around three interwoven stories following different thralls from their initial temptation through to their ultimate faiths. The rules section provided extensive options for creating and playing thrall characters, including unique enhancements each house could grant. September brought Demon the Earthbound, which gave these terrifying antagonists the full source book treatment. The book details the five archdukes, Lucifer's lieutenants who had been summoned back to Earth and bound to reliquaries as Madeus, Azrael, Dagon, Belial, and Abaddon. It explored how these demons existed and exerted their powers, the cults that formed around them, and how they might be fought. Most significantly, it provided rules for playing earthbound characters, although these were incredibly powerful and clearly intended more for high-level antagonists than starting PCs. The book introduced new laws unique to the Earthbound, the lore of chaos, contamination, and violation. Six detailed earthbound characters were provided, ready to drop into Chronicles as major threats. November 2003 brought us Houses of the Fallen, a detailed examination of each of the seven demonic houses. This book explored the history and exploits of each house during the Fall and the War of Wrath, their philosophies and relationships with each other, and provided new relics and rituals specific to each. If you wanted to understand what made a devil different from a slayer beyond just their mechanical abilities, this was the book for you. December 2003 saw the release of Days of Fire. Like Vampire's Book of Nod, Days of Fire was presented as an in-universe document. It purported to be a translation of an ancient Greek text prepared by a scholar named Eves Dara, and Yesna is an anagram of Adversary shortly before his murder. The content presented prophecies attributed to Lucifer himself, warning of a coming cataclysm. The book was divided into sections covering the seasons of the world, from its springtime through to the winter, and presented three possible paths through the coming apocalypse. It also included a dossier of modern investigations into supernatural phenomena tying the ancient prophecies to contemporary events. Days of Fire was genuinely excellent, atmospheric and evocative, building towards something momentous. It included details of what might be the potential end times for each of the other World of Darkness lines, too. And everything was quiet until March 15th, 2004, when we got World of Darkness, Time of Judgment, the book that ended it all. Now this wasn't specifically a demon book, it covered endings for Changeling, Hunter, Demon, Mummy and Kindred of Ace, the five game lightens that didn't get their own dedicated finales like Vampire's Gaena or Werewolf's Apocalypse. The demon chapter in Time of Judgment provided storytellers with tools for creating signs of the apocalypse and presented three possible endings. Twilight of the Gods saw the Earthbound triumphant, bringing around Eternal Night, Better to Rule on Earth, had the Fallen summon back greater demons and establishing the dominion over humanity, and Paradise 1 effectively offered the possibility of redemption and a new beginning. The fiction and time of judgment continued directly from Days of Fire, with Lucifer himself contemplating the end of everything. And here's my frustration. Days of Fire had been building towards something genuinely momentous. The fiction and time of judgment followed through in that build-up with compelling material, but the actual scenarios in the book they didn't really pay off any of it. And this was really true for all White Wolf Time of Judgment endings. None of the stuff mentioned in Days of Fire actually came true in any of the game lines, and this kind of makes Lucifer for this all-seeing prophet somewhat blind when it came to White Wolf's own material. Anyway, that ending aside, I've rambled for about 30 minutes now, so what's the verdict on Demon the Fallen? Looking back, I think it's a game that deserved better than its abbreviated run allowed. The core concept was genuinely inspired. Playing beings involved in the creation of reality itself, wrestling with the consequences of a choice made before humanity even existed properly. That's fertile ground for role playing. The mechanics supported the themes well, with torment creating genuine moral tension and faith encouraging engagement with the mortal world rather than isolation from it. The game lent itself to multiple styles of play remarkably well. You could run political games focused on infelling. Cult macinations, investigative games with a fallen piece together of forgotten memories and ancient conspiracies, mythic adventures exploring the remnants of the Age of Wrath, or personal dramas about creatures seeking redemption they might not deserve. That versatility was a genuine strength. The publication schedule, while compressed, covered the essential bases. The core book provided a solid foundation, the storyteller's companion filled in crucial gaps about the other supernaturals, City of Angels and Fear to Tread gave you a detailed setting with ready-to-run scenarios, the player's guide expanded character options significantly, and the other various source books each added meaningful depth without feeling like padding, and of course the Earthband book gave you some perfect antagonists. All that being said, the game wasn't without its flaws. The cosmological explanations trying to reconcile Judeo-Christian myth with the rest of the world of darkness never quite convinced. The lack of LARP support was a genuine missed opportunity. The main rule book's a mission of infernal court structure meant storytellers had to wait for City of Angels to run the political games the system was so clearly designed to support. And of course, the ending was somewhat frustrating. Days of Fire genuinely built towards something epic, and while the scenarios in Time of Judgment provided closure of a sort, they never quite delivered on what was promised in Days of Fire. The scenarios felt like they were ticking boxes rather than providing the grand finale the game deserved. Saying that the demon scenarios were considerably better than those provided for Hunter, and in fact, one of the demon endings actually served as a pretty good ending for Hunter the Reckoning 2. These minor gripes aside, if you've never explored Demon the Fallen, I'd encourage you to seek it out. The books remain available in PDF form, and the setting retains its power even two decades later. There's something genuinely compelling about playing characters who participated in the grandest rebellion imaginable and are now grappling with its consequences in a world that has largely forgotten them. The Fallen aren't heroes or villains by default, they're beings making choices about what to do with the second chance, whether that means seeking revenge, pursuing redemption, acquiring power, or simply trying to understand what went wrong all those eons ago. And for those of you who, like me, always thought it would make a brilliant LARP, well, you'll just have to write your own rules. But trust me, it's worth the effort. We are a semi-regular podcast on history of RPGs. We have got almost 80 episodes now on our channel covering all sorts of things like history episodes like this, all the way to round tables, product reviews, interviews, and actual plays. If you're a fan of gaming's golden age, there will be something there for you. If you want to get in touch with us, you can do so by email on rule.save.pod at gmail.com, or you can find us on Instagram or Facebook by searching for Roll2Save. If you'd like to support us, you can do so either by reposting our episode announcements on social media or by dropping us five stars on your podcast directory of choice. These really help with the visibility and they help massage our fragile little egos and help us want to make more episodes. That's all for this episode. If you have any ideas for future episodes, please get in touch with us. But until then, we will see you next time.