The Healthy Post Natal Body Podcast

Adoption; Expectation Vs reality and how to make it work. Interview with Anna Maria DiDio.

June 05, 2022 Anna Maria DiDio
The Healthy Post Natal Body Podcast
Adoption; Expectation Vs reality and how to make it work. Interview with Anna Maria DiDio.
Show Notes Transcript

In this weeks episode I had the pleasure of talking to Anna Maria DiDio

Anna Maria DiDio, MSW is an adoptive mother and was inspired to write her memoir, Love at the Border, An Adoption Adventure after her own family journey to Mexico. 

Now her L.I.F.E.* ( *Love Inspires Families Everywhere ) Adventures children’s books feature stories about adoption, foster care, stepchildren, and all blended families from the point of view of the child. 

Anna Maria hopes that her books encourage open and honest exploration of what children are thinking and feeling within their own unique families.

Anna Maria holds a BA in Psychology from Villanova University and an MSW in Family Specialization from the University of Pennsylvania.
For over twenty years, Anna Maria DiDio has devoted her time and talents to many non-profit organizations focusing on women, girls, and families globally. She is currently President of Women International Leaders (WIL) of Greater Philadelphia, which provides micro loans and empowerment grants to women in under-resourced countries. Anna Maria is at her most creative when she is traveling and experiencing new people, places, and things to eat and then writing about it!

She can be found at home in Philadelphia walking everywhere, swimming laps, reading biographies, or baking chocolate chip cookies. Anna Maria's books can be found on Amazon, travel writing and other essays on The Bean's Talk – her Medium publication. More information can be found on her website

Her book can be found on the Amazon website
You can connect with Anna Maria in all the usual places;

Her website

In the news this week This article from the Guardian website which tells us something almost every woman already knows and that is that women's  gynaecological issues tend to be put on the backburner by our National Health System or seen as "not serious enough" to warrant treatment or even "benign". I also highlight this accompanying article which shows that, unremarkably, post-partum health is still completely ignored even when people in the health sector make up a list of "top 4 ways".

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Playing us out this week;  "Change for Me" by EILOH

Peter Lap: Welcome to the Healthy Post-Natal Body podcast. With your Post-Natal expert Peter Lap. That, as always, would be me. This is the podcast for the 5th of June 2022. I have the pleasure of talking to Anna Maria DiDio today and we're talking adoption. She's an adoptive mother. She wrote a memoir, ‘Love at the border an adoption adventure’. And now she has a new series of children's books filled with feature stories about adoption, foster care, stepchildren and all blended families from the viewpoint of the child. Basically she talks us through her fascinating story of adopting her youngest daughter, and the expectations versus reality. What you need to do, the effort you have to put in to make it work. It's a phenomenal tale and I'm delighted she came on. So without further ado, here we go. So talk us through your adoption journey, if you don't mind, what was the reality versus the expectation? 

Anna Maria: Well, it started with our desire for a family, of course, and we were plagued for many years with infertility issues, which were very isolating, you think as it's only you're the only one it's happening to. So after many years, we had a beautiful baby girl. But then adding to the family, adding we wanted to sibling for our daughter just proved impossible. So we had some additional infertility treatments and issues. And then we turned to adoption. So by that time, though, our daughter was seven, eight years old. So we thought that the time for our fertility had really passed us by, so we were looking into adopting, a little bit older child. And just through happenstance, we found out about an agency in our Philadelphia area that dealt with several orphanages in Mexico, in Mexico City and around Mexico City. And we investigated it and were given the information that in all likelihood, they would have a child, we were asking for a girl similar in age to our girl and that's how it all started. 

Peter Lap: That's interesting, because obviously a lot of people, when they start looking into adoption, and all that, they really start looking at that at the baby level, so to speak. So it's interesting, you decided to go for someone a bit older. So the process between choosing a slightly older child, is that easier process wise compared to wanting a younger child or wanting a baby or a really small? Do you think it's easier to adopt a seven year old as in just from a process perspective? 

Anna Maria: I think the laws or the requirements are still the same. In terms of the actual, adoption, and getting acclimated as far as your family changing. I think that's much more difficult. Because, all adoption begins with trauma, separation loss. And our adopted daughter was brought to the orphanage as a baby. So she lived there. Many years when we met her, she was six. And then when we adopted her she was by that time, she was seven, and our other daughter was eight. And maybe something comes to mind when you picture orphanage. But this was a very loving place. The women that cared for the children were called Tia. And our daughter had grown very close to the Tia that cared for her. The director of the orphanage was just a charismatic, wonderful person. The children just loved her and looked up to her. So she was hit with a double whammy, so to speak, because, one day she went to sleep in Cuernavaca, Mexico, which is a beautiful place outside of Mexico City, and the next day she woke up in suburban Philadelphia. So she had lost so much. And that's you talked about expectation versus reality. And that's really where the crux of my writing and all that began because it was the transition and reality was much different. 

Peter Lap:  So let's start with the expectation? What did you expect them? Where you're guided through that process relatively where you're told what to expect and did it plan out that way. 

Anna Maria: I say we by say that we succumb to the myth of adoption. And we were listening to our own rave reviews, like she's so lucky that she's going to be adopted by you. She's so fortunate to have this wonderful family. And yes, we were all, lucky to get together. But, from her perspective, as I said, she had lost so much. And I don't think the reality of that really hit us until she was living with us. And obviously, we saw how she reacted, it was, well, months and years, months, and initially, just she was crying. She was devastated that she was living in the United States, and wanted to return to her friends. The orphanage had about 30, 40 kids. Because they were young, the boys and girls were living together. When they get older, they're in separate places. But, can you imagine how fun that is to just play with all those kids all the time, and that the atmosphere was fun. And she was having none of it, when she was in our home with just one other child to play with. In fact, she told through it. We had a translator in the beginning. And I said, what did she say? And she said, she’s bored in this house. She's just wanting to do something, I was really put out like, I had fun activities planned, and it was the summer time. But so many expectations. And the reality was quite different. 

Peter Lap: Yes, because I suppose from our perspective, and I'm obviously UK based, it's very tempting to say, you’re so lucky to live in America now, land of the free, home of the brave. People feel so lucky, they get to come to the United Kingdom, because we are like, rich first world country. And i don’t think that it’s all correct. But through the eyes of a child, that is not necessarily the case. 

Anna Maria: Yes, she was hurt, in a big way. And, I tell you another interesting story, she was so just so devastated. Mexico has been in the news for years. And I used to clip these little things I would call, resentment, coupons. There was, poverty was everywhere. There's violence in Mexico due to the gangs, and, the employment outlook is bleak. And, I would just think, well, what, someday she's going to see all these things and realize how great it is, to live here. And, then gradually, as I just watched her navigate the whole landscape of getting used to us and the food and the language and the culture in the school. And years later, I found all those things that I had had cut out, and I just threw them out. So that's not really the direction we ended up going. She was in such pain, we really spent a lot of time trying to help her, reconnect with her culture and their language and eventually, yes, that did happen. 

Peter Lap: So how did you manage to get that to break those barriers down a little bit, so to speak? Because like you said, language was an issue. So I think if you weren't fluent in Spanish at that time and that makes it difficult, if you have a translator, there's always somebody in between us both. So how did you manage to get through? 

Anna Maria: Well, she was quite confused, in fact that one of the first things she said, why did you even adopt me if you can't even speak Spanish? For her it was just inconceivable. But very quickly, kids are very smart and very quickly, she did learn English. So within a very short time, she lost her Spanish, which was for me, It was sad because, I could see her as the little girl that came to us and her language gets lost, she was a very talkative, energetic, bubbly, precocious kid. And she was a leader among kids. And when we watched her, saw her at the orphanage, she was just, I'm sure she was kind of a troublemaker too. And she was to lose that and be in the US. And for a long time, she said nothing. So, gradually, English became her way of communicating. And then as the years went by, we tried to support her learning Spanish again. But it wasn't until that it was incorporated in the school, maybe in middle school, and then in high school, when she started to go to class. And she started to speak. The transformation was really an incredible, I could see, this thing coming back and her confidence a little bit and her pronunciation was just beautiful. And it just all clicked in. And then, by the time she was, of course, in college, she was totally fluent, and was able to return to Mexico and study abroad. 

Peter Lap:  Honestly, that's amazing. So at what stage do you realize that your expectations were not actually realistic, so to speak, and how did you initially reacted it? 

Anna Maria:  Well, initially, I was like, in denial for a long time, and I kept waiting, I'm sure she's going to stop crying, at any minute, this is going to blow over. And it just went on and on and on. And we had to return to Mexico twice. And all this transpired. And I decided I was going to write it down. So my first book was really a memoir that I wrote called ‘The Love at the border, and adoption adventure’. And it was really the process of us coming to terms with, what it, meant to adopt a child, and then how we did it, and then connecting with the women in Mexico, but it also you to answer your question, it came sort of in waves. I'll say like, younger years, when she was in elementary school, we were so focused on having her, getting reading, writing and arithmetic down that. And it was very gradual, but, the testing behaviors and all that, went on for years, but gradually, so gradually, she began to trust us more. And, it's been many years now. So it was really a process. But I will say, though, that we did rely on professionals, I don't think that there was ever a time that I thought that she would be able to tell everything to me and I was going to fix everything. So we did at various stages at her young age. And then kind of middle school and then teenage years, we had three sets of of people that helped us and maybe those are the stages that you're talking about, what we really did seek out others to kind of help us in these various stages of transition. 

Peter Lap: Because that makes sense, because to me from an outsider looking in. Who has never got in through that, it seems you can't possibly do these things all by yourself. So when you're talking testing behaviors, what sort of things are you talking about just in case people are listening and thinking about adoption? And the way we are told adoption, so to speak to us very truth phase is indeed very similar. Adopted a child will be lucky that they are with you and they will be immediately grateful and be adult, because who wouldn't want to go from a poverty, from a poor environment to a nice. The way you always see this on television is you have your own room now. You have your own bed, there is a television that isn't it's all amazing, and the kids don't necessarily care that much. 

Anna Maria: It's so fascinating, who could care less and it was funny even in the very beginning the clothes, I was so focused on. Because I had a girl and I blessed her like a little doll sometimes. And look at all these clothes and they new clothes, to give her clothes and she put them all in a corner, and only wore the clothes that she brought with her from Mexico for months. And I was just surprised. I just couldn't believe it, it was so fascinating. There was another time in school where, when she was, very young, and it was one of the first, there's back to school nights, where the parents go off to meet the teachers, and there's a little, maybe an art fair, science fair. So her art class had an assignment, draw someone who means the most to you, or it means a lot to you to this person, whoever this is. So I'm like walking down the hall looking looking for me, it's all about me. And so I come to her poster board. And it's some woman with blond hair, and, holding a baby or something. And I can see my daughter's name at the bottom of the poster board. I say, who was that? I can’t imagine how shocked I was, I couldn't get it through my school that she needed to either be closer to other people or just like, test the limits of our family or, it was a teacher that she built some sort of bond with. And I think it was important for her to portray that and not me. But it really did take too long for it to drawn on me that I wasn't going to be the all and end all to many more years. 

Peter Lap: So did you find a sense, of course, because it must be very difficult, when the expectation doesn't match reality to such an extent, when you've made such a big decision of saying that, here we have this six year old, seven year old child, this will be our daughter, now we'll bring her into our home, we will care for her for the rest of her life and all that sort of stuff. So then, did you have a sense of like depression, and how the change didn't really work s you expected in the beginning? Did you have that overwhelming feeling that I hear from a lot of postpartum people, especially when they have a baby. And babies are all rainbows and unicorns, and all that sort of stuff. And they never really are. But that is how it tends to be. So did you have that same overwhelming, so almost like a postnatal depression, if you will, that you just go out Jesus, whatever. 

Anna Maria: In the beginning, it was a sheer panic, because she would run to the phone and pick it up and start yelling in Spanish to whoever and I thought, well, someone's going to call the police thinking that we beat her, In the beginning it was like, you wanted to laugh, but you were crying or you were crying and you wanted to laugh. But then as we settled in, and as I said, she was a very, social, outgoing, communicative kid. And as she began to learn English, she was like a little magnet people. And we lived in a small town. So like a new kid in a small town was like gold for these other kids, or somebody new. And so she had friends and so all that started to, come together, but there are always those, little hearts, and then jealousies between the two girls. So there was a lot more of that than I thought, this is great. Well, I have two sisters, I was especially close to one of my sisters. And I thought this is what I want like close sisterly. And that was also a very big disappointment that really never happened because they were completely opposite in personalities. And the older daughter would play in a band concert and, our younger daughter, would we, crawl underneath the seats and crawl all through the auditorium just to make mischief during the whole band concert. So that kind of things just went on and on. And it really took some time and patience and all that. So it was a little bit sad but determined that I could turn it around kind of thing. 

Peter Lap: Yes, absolutely. Because, like Nick said, you've already decided that you're going to make it work one way or the other. You said this is my daughter and therefore, you make it work. Its going to be difficult and you're going to have struggles, but you're not going to give up on it and ship it back to Mexico. And indeed, I was going to ask about your other daughter. Did you have a conversation with her beforehand that we're looking to adaoption? How would you feel about bringing another girl into and having a little sister and all that? 

Anna Maria: Yes, she could not have been more excited. It was a nice, as I said, we made three trips to Mexico. And she came with us on two of them. She was there. And, kind of getting a sense of, what Mexico was like, and different languages, different food. And so we tried to include her. But, the reality, of course, for her was very different. At one point, she was tucking, in one night, she just burst into tears. She's getting all the attention. She had been an only child for all these years. And I don't think that really, I thought they would just, get together and they were so different. And to this day, they're still not that close. One moved away, but I still have hope that we'll we're taking a family vacation later this summer. So we're still trying to work together. 

Peter Lap: This just because they're not best friends, like I'm not best friends with my brother. But that doesn't mean we're not brothers. Do you know what I mean? If he needs a kidney, he'll still follow me. 

Anna Maria: And we have many, because all sort of mischief growing up between the two of them. There are a lot of funny family memories, when we get together, it's still kind of that which is a closeness in a way. So we do cherish that. 

Peter Lap: That makes complete sense. So indeed, I was going to say obviously when you bring an adoptive child into the house, and they need time to settle in? What advice would you give to, a parent have not gone through with what you've gone through? What would you say? How can you make sure your non adoptive child is prepared for losing some of the attention or Okay, with not getting all the attention? 

Anna Maria:  Now, that's a great question to kind of zero in on because I didn't do enough of that, we thought we had prepared and because she initially was so enthusiastic, and wanted the same solution as we did, we thought well, but she, didn't persevere as I did, and was not as determined. And, as an only child and living in a small town, she also had a very nice network of friends and drifted away with those friends as time went on, and spent less and less time with family. So I would say that, time and attention really needs to be focused on that other child, and then enough time with each child individually. So once the whole adoption happened, we were so focused on making family, family life harmonious that we were not spending, quality time with each and so more time could have been spent in that area for sure. 

Peter Lap: Yes, but do you think if you've spoken Spanish in this particular case, do you think speaking the language would have made a significant difference with regards to your adoptive child settling in? Or do you think actually, we kind of had that bit covered it didn't really, because a child is young and therefore can learn a language easily enough because kids pick up things like that, especially when their friends are involved. What, advice to other parents again, if you are thinking of adopting, at least get the basics, and become familiar with some bracing and all that.

Anna Maria:  Well, we did have some basic bracing and things, so we weren't totally in left as far as that goes, but our thought was, because she had this kind of oppositional behavior that if we had been fluent in Spanish, she told us many times that she didn't want to learn English. So she was forced to in the circumstances. And it turned out to be, better for her to be acclimated, of course, at school she had an ESL teacher, and obviously, the focus is English, you must be reading and writing in English. So we wanted that transition to happen as soon as possible. So we weren't as focused on retaining Spanish. But later on, we did support that very enthusiastically with tutors, and supplementing school instruction with tutors. And, we traveled to Mexico. As it turns out, our older daughter also had a summer abroad program and worked at the orphanage where we adopted her, we all went back there for reunion. And at the time, her Spanish was very halting. So it was very interesting that the older daughter was fluent, and she was still catching up. And that spurred her on a little bit. So we tried to encourage, that, and I think that worked out well. And by the time she was kind of playing with Spanish, and testing the waters, she had a phone. So she transitioned and connected with people from the orphanage on Facebook, started listening to Spanish music and TV. And so really the timings right. 

Peter Lap: Now that makes it interesting, because obviously, this is just me not knowing anything about the situation. But it's interesting you say your older daughter went to work at the orphanage where your younger daughter came from, so it does mean there's a connection there, even though there might not be besties, they clearly are connected and that's a good family dynamic, so I suppose. You know, what we hear a lot about is when kids get through their teenage years to say 11, 12, 13, years old. Their hormones are raging, so to speak, there's a lot of change. Did you find at that stage it was useful again, to bring another professional in to deal with, any resentment or anger or whatever that she had?

Anna Maria:  Yes, so we've zeroed in on the exact timeframe of the third series of professionals. That was the high school years. And interestingly enough, we got a call from the school psychologist that she was concerned about my daughter, which turned out to be actually misplaced, it was another child that actually was exhibiting behaviors that were troublesome but we took advantage of this time because again, there were still these testing behaviors, when we leave the house, have a party. When we think that she was one place, she was another place and the things that teenagers do. So she is kid that she spent a lot of time without her electronics during those years because we kept taking them away but it was a challenging time, you're right, as sort of teenage years, sort of evolved I think, peer pressure the fact that she was different really, played in on her head and we emerge with everything intact with because she did go to college and completed successfully. So it did worked out but it was touchy go there for a while. 

Peter Lap:  Because those teenage years are difficult or the best of time for any kids, I suppose. In this day and age, it's even trickier, of course, with the internet being what it is. I suppose if you're in a small village, I take the word that there are kids from Mexican heritage, kids from a Mexican background there. So that makes it more difficult to blend in. 

Anna Maria: Yes, I think there were two Hispanic children in the class. So that was it. 

Peter Lap: So she would stand out there a little bit as well making that a bit more difficult. So during that time, because that's rather interesting time so you have. How did you communicate with with her after that time, that she express her anger and resentment, of course to the professional as well as to you, it was like a couples therapist, or a relationship therapist, they saw that as a family together, or was it more her own professional she worked with? 

Anna Maria:  It was a combination. It was really the two of us mother daughter. Are you familiar with the kinson Era? Do you know when it gets in here? 

Peter Lap:  Yes, I do. Because I've watched Modern Family, when it came up.

Anna Maria: So at 15, we decided to, have a Kinson Era, even though that wasn't our, tradition. But she was very enthusiastic about it in the beginning. And this is what I mean, by the testing and that, whether you call it passive aggressive, or she was so excited about it in the beginning, and then could care less like, didn't want to participate in it, didn't want to go shopping for the dress, is a big deal. And it was so interesting. So that started, I think her maybe her thoughts about being different. So 15, 16, 17, those were the years, we really worked hard at, what are you thinking and trying to figure that out. And then as we get, talked about college and her future. And I think all that was scary. So it was a lot to process for her. But so we did rely on a very wonderful family therapist, and I felt it on a few sessions, but she did quite a few on her own as well. 

Peter Lap: It makes sense to address these things as a family unit, as well, at least have part of that. So obviously, like you said, you've got a couple of books out about this. Which is fascinating. The last one, I believe it's your last one, and it's ‘Many people to love’. 

Anna Maria: Yes, so that's a children's book that I've decided, right as part of a series, I'm just beginning the series now, obviously. So it's written from the child's point of view. And the illustrations are realistic. Now many people, there are wonderful books about, adoption and being different and their cartoons and animals and whatnot. And that's wonderful, I thought it was really important to, put together some realistic illustrations, and of course, behaviors that I saw in our own family, and how we address them. So there's, stuff going on there. And although, of course, the focus is an international adoption. But these behaviors I are typical in any sort of blended family, where the children are getting used to a new situation, perhaps a new relative, but the series will progress. And then the next book is called, ‘How I wonder where you are’. And it's the same girl, her name is Karla. And she's thinking about her biological mother and her genetic makeup. She looks different than her adoptive mother. And when they're out shopping you know, people say that her sister looks just like her mother. But she's kind of left out. And so those kinds of thoughts, I think are very important for adopted children to sort out and come to terms with. 

Peter Lap: Yes, because that's a fascinating one as well, again, I'm really familiar. I know some foster parents and all that. But they foster locally so to speak. And they don't adopt, they just foster. The foster system, from my understanding in the UK is significantly different from the way it is in the US. But so they don't go through the whole. I wonder who my biological parents are and all that. So did your daughter go through that? And if so, how did you deal with that? Are you already familiar with her background to the extent that you could discuss it with her and if she had any remaining family left in Mexico and all that?

Anna Maria:  So their family in Mexico was not something that we knew anything about? And because of the way things unfolded with our older daughter working there, and through the years we've kept in touch with the orphanage, sent pictures of her and her brown uniform and her girl scout cookies and her band and whatever else she did And so we kept that connection. So the biological connection to me, it seemed at least was not as important to her. But in the mind of a child, it's natural to wonder about it. So even though she had that solid connection with the caregivers in Mexico, I'm sure she did wander and I've, read that many adopted children, continue to wonder about their biological roots. So, that's really the point, of that book, but with foster children as well, there are all kinds of reasons for foster care, again, in the US. So I don't have much experience with that. But that will be something for a future book. 

Peter Lap: So what would you say, go back to your own journey, with regard to adoption, and dealing with a change in family dynamics and all that. So what advice would you give to parents who are considering adopting first of all? So what is the one thing that you said, Listen, if you take anything from what I say, this is the thing, too. 

Anna Maria: It's hard, I really have like a trio of things that I tell people, and that's first connect with other adoptive parents, that those connections and stories are so rich in learning and understanding and this happened or, and whether that means just connecting through a Facebook group, I'm in several Facebook groups, and the stories and the anguish that they are sharing, that goes on online with strangers, is just tremendous. It really creates wonderful learning opportunities. So connecting with others. And then of course, we talked about this already seeking the help of professionals at each stage of your child's development. I mean, in the beginning, we had a therapists that specialized in play therapy, so it was just these figures that we did, that we made up stories, and maybe, your child can't verbalize things, but they can pretend with $1, or some sort of toy, and it was really helpful. And then just being honest, we tried to be honest, as we could with each other, with our feelings, and what we knew and what we didn't know, and I try to be honest with my, older daughter that my biological daughter, we're committed to being a family and try this, do that, or maintain our, limits, we set limits, we were consistent, with homework and all that. But so that's, really the three things that I live by, in terms of coming out of this, alive and well. And then writing about it. So that's what I would recommend.

Peter Lap:  That seems to make complete sense. So like you said, you have ‘The many people to love’ book is out. This all on Amazon, isn't that loving the border is, that's your memoir, and that is more aimed at adults isn't? 

Anna Maria:  Right. It's, the story of our journey. 

Peter Lap:  And I suppose that would be the one, prospective adoptive parents or something like that that would definitely be worth investing in and checking in, to see how much it is. But if you're thinking of adopting a child, you can always do with reading an additional book. That's a good idea. Because like I said, when I contacted you, it is a fascinating thing to discuss, and not something I hear many people actually discuss openly and honestly, maybe on Facebook it is but that is not what we see on television. That is not the narrative we see in movies, and all that. And even if we see something similar, usually from a foster parent background, it's more about the troubled foster child and all that. Let's say meaningful interaction between parent and child in any meaningful solutions. So I think that is definitely worth Checking out. Was there anything else you wanted to touch on? Because I think we went from all?

Anna Maria: Well, my website has some other writings. is my website. And I've also occasionally provided pro bono adoption coaching, the families that are waiting, that just want to talk. I started out in social work, and then didn't end up working in social work. But I love to support families in any way that I can. So the book series, watch for the second one too.

Peter Lap: Definitely, I will obviously link to everything anyway. So for everybody listening, I will link to the bookstore, Amazon stuff, and obviously, LinkedIn page and all that. On that happy note. I think we covered a lot. Thanks very much, again, to Anna Maria for coming on. You can find her book as it says in a podcast subscription, you find it on the Amazon website, you will also find her at all the usual places link, there's a link to her website, or Facebook page, or Instagram or LinkedIn and all that, is in the podcast description. I thought was fascinating. Again, it's a perspective I'm not familiar with. It's a story I've not lived through. And I think it makes sense to me that the expectations versus the reality of adoption is completely different. And there are a lot of angles from which adult’s views adoption is not necessarily the angle from which the child use adoption. And therefore, you know, you have to take all these things into account. So there's a lot to learn. And there's a lot of wisdom she shared in that chat. We are now going to do a little in the news this week because of 42 minutes since I've got a bit of time. So in the news this week, what are we talking about? Article in ‘The Guardian this week talking about dismissal of women's health problems as benign, leading to soaring NHS lists’. Guardian causes an exclusive saying that gender bias means debilitating gynecological conditions are played down Sr. RCOG precedent, which is the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, Dr. Edward Morris. And it's interesting, because essentially, they're not telling us anything new here. Anybody who's even remotely involved in women's health, including little me as a personal trainer, all the stories that I listen to from my clients is that you're always on the back of that when it comes to the NHS. And even now in this article, because I'm not going to delve into the article, I'll link to it. Basically, they're saying a lot of gynecological terms. They've got a new strategy and all that but then there is a list of four ways England is famous for always and NHS England is failing women. And the four things they list again, don't include anything about postpartum health. And that's the interesting thing. So they've tolling in. Number one endometriosis, or the gynecological editions, including prolapse in that to be fair, menopause and healthy aging, cardiovascular health, social determinants. Those are the four things that list but nobody again lists anything to do with postpartum health. And that is such a shame because it's again, such a missed opportunity. In an ideal world, or in any world if you agree with me, in an ideal world, we would stop ignoring women from the moment they give birth up until menopause, because that's what's currently happening. All those health conditions up until then, diastasis recti back pain, pelvic girdle pain, all that sort of thing is constantly being ignored, because from the time you give birth up until around about menopause or perimenopause, you just a mom and a women are seen as just a mum, and even by the press, and even by the Guardian, who is clearly, well, on the right side of this argument. They're just missing a section. So I'm not having a pop at The Guardian at all. But they're just missing a section, they're missing that period of 15, 20 years where women are not seen as important because they are mums, unless it comes to career and all that. Women's Health issues. Let me put it that way. Because obviously people do take the gender pay gap and all that sort of thing seriously. Anyways, I'll link to the articles too, because they're actually quite fascinating little reads. And that's my friends is that, because it's been a shitty week in at HPNB, HQ even because my little buddy managed to injure himself. So I've had a lot of trips to the vets and all that sort of stuff. He'll be fine hopefully with a bit of rest. But I've had other things to do. So I don't have a tremendous amount of time. So a 50 minute podcast is what you have to do with, thanks again to Anna Maria for coming on. I have another interview next week, which I already recorded. So that is nice. We're talking migraines next week. That's awesome. And I'm doing more interviews coming up. I've got a whole list of people wanting to come on to the podcast. If you want me to answer any of your questions, or you want to come on to the podcast., just get in touch, as always three months completely free postnatal recovery advice and programs and all that, go to I genuinely keep saying this, cancel sign up, cancel on day one if you're not going to pay for it and you don't have to and they'll expect you to, if you are like now I'm not going to pay for the noise, I want my free trial counsel. All they want, you still get free months completely free access. I would rather have 5, 10, 20, 30,000 people taking advantage of the free membership then people think now I'm not going to pay anyways and therefore I won't sign up. That's a terrible way to be. HPNB is set up to help as many people, as many women as we can, anyways you have a tremendous week and I'll catch up next week. Bye now.