How to conceive even if you've struggled previously. Interview with Gabriela Rosa

This week I had a lot of questions and conversations about fertility, especially from women struggling to conceive a second or third child.

And, though I'm more than happy to answer questions myself, this is not my specialist subject and I would just be repeating the information this guest gave me a couple of years ago.
So, from the vault, I am delighted to bring you this episode.

Every now and again I am extremely lucky and manage to book a guest like Gabriela Rosa (MPH (CLE), MScM(RHHG), BHSc(ND) and many others things beside) for my little podcast.

Gabriela is a world-renowned fertility specialist and, after you've listened to her talking to me for an hour, you'll know that she is the real deal.
A best-selling author of 4 books, a Harvard university awarded scholar, and founder, and clinical director, of the Rosa Institute.

She, very kindly, gave up an hour of her time to talk to me about all things fertility related.

She explains that it takes, on average, 8 (!!!) cycles of IVF for people to fall pregnant.
How you can conceive naturally even after IVF treatments have failed.
That fertility is a team sport.
Why she tells people to "act pregnant to get pregnant".
Why you need a personalised approach when trying to get pregnant, rather than relying on what worked for other people.
How she has achieved a 78% success rate with her method.

And much, MUCH more.

This is one of my favourite interviews ever and I didn't even mind doing it at 1.30AM in the morning.

Gabriela's book is a MUST BUY, Fertility Breakthrough; Overcoming infertility and recurrent miscarriage when other treatments have failed.

You can find Gabriela on

Facebook
https://www.instagram.com/fertilitybreakthrough/
https://www.instagram.com/gabrielarosafertility/

You can listen to her podcast "Talk sex with Gabriela Rosa" soon on all the good podcast platforms

Remember to follow us on Instagram and Facebook for the competitions, wisdom and cute videos.

Visit healthypostnatalbody.com and get 3 months completely FREE access. No sales, no commitment, no BS.

Email peter@healthypostnatalbody.com if you have any questions or comments 
 
If you could rate the podcast on your favourite platform that would be a big help. 


Playing us out this week; "Jazzolino" by Fabio Poian 

Transcript

Peter Lap: 0:00

Hey, welcome to the Healthy Post Natal Body Podcast with your Post Natal Expert, peter Lap. That, as always, would be me. This is a podcast for the 10th of December 2023, and I had a ton of questions about fertility this week. I mean an absolute ton of questions and I thought to myself I could answer them, or I can do what I really really like to do when I've had an absolutely brilliant guest on in the past, and that is grab an episode from the vault because why we can listen to me.

Peter Lap: 0:33

I thought you did some stuff that a genuinely world renowned fertility specialist would actually find it so easy to answer A while ago, and I want to say it was when was this? 2021, on October 2021, so a couple of years ago I spoke to Gabriela Rosa, who has a whole bunch of titles behind her name. So he's a world renowned fertility specialist and this lady is the real deal bestselling author of four books, harvard University Awarded, scholar and founder and clinical director of the Rosa Institute. We're talking about everything From IVF, for instance, how you can conceive naturally, even after IVF treatments have failed fertility, to be in a team sport there's more to fertility, more to getting pregnant than just the woman who's trying to get pregnant, trying to get pregnant and all that sort of stuff, why you need a personalized approach when you're trying to get pregnant rather than relying on what works for other people. She has a phenomenal success rate with her method. It was last time I checked it was 78%, and from my personal experience, several of my clients have bought her book or got her book I think there was free download at the time.

Peter Lap: 1:58

I'm not sure it's still out, probably still is and they said it's fascinating. There's a tremendous amount of good stuff in there. So it's a no brainer. Rather than listen to me waffle on for an hour, you get to listen to a genuine expert for an hour. How great is that, right? So here we go. You're an expert in the field of reproductive medicine. I have several clients, members and listeners that tell me that they're struggling to conceive a second or third child and that nothing they've tried works, even though it worked previously, including, I think. What do you say to couples in that situation, and where do you even start when couples like that come to you?

Gabriela Rosa: 3:01

Yeah, I think it's a great question and it's something that's really prevalent in a lot of situations for couples typically who struggle to conceive, and I've been helping couples overcome infertility and recurrent miscarriage, even when other treatments have failed, for 20 years now, and so I've been privy to lots of different discussions and situations where couples are in exactly that position.

Gabriela Rosa: 3:27

It's really interesting because I think to answer that question, we need to give a little bit of extra context that is going to really help people understand not only why it happens, but what is it that they need to understand when it does, because it's not unusual for a woman to conceive the first child and then have a period of latency, so to speak, where we need to get back into balance to be able to try again.

Gabriela Rosa: 3:56

Typically, the average kind of ideal time in between children is around three years, and so these days, when women are delaying motherhood for various reasons, they may not have found a partner that they want to have a child with, or they've prioritized career, or they've prioritized other aspects of life, for whatever reason, we are reproducing at later and later stages in our lives, and so that can also add a level of complexity and challenge to conception, because by the time you've had your first and there's two or three years to have your second, that is also going to make a difference in the context of having a baby.

Gabriela Rosa: 4:41

But if we leave all of that aside and the fact that, if you think about it, we women are meant to be grandmothers by the age of 30. If you think about it from an evolutionary perspective now we live to 100, to 100, but really, if you think about grandparents and great grandparents and great grandparents, really women were grandparents by the age of 30, by 15. They had their first child by 15, their child had their first child, and so 30 years old.

Peter Lap: 5:11

It's so scary to think about this.

Gabriela Rosa: 5:13

I know right Ready by your grandfather at 30. But the reality is that our lives have changed. Our biology hasn't, and with that in mind, we need to be conscious of the fact that there are different considerations there in thought. But if we look at from an epidemiological perspective, if we look at populations around the globe, what we know is that it takes three months, out of this time to pregnancy for couples to get pregnant and have a baby.

Gabriela Rosa: 5:42

Literally it's have safe, get pregnant, have a baby done. We're no longer having this conversation. In fact, when we are looking at population studies, the people who conceive easily and without any talent are not even trying. Yeah, they are the people that have a fertile portion of the population, the sub-population that starts this thing can prepare and plan and starts growing and hasn't yet quite had the outcome that they're looking for. They are the what is called sub-vertile or infertile portion of the population, which, in reality, there are many, many things that people can do to change that the so-called in a diagnosis and so one of my we will get into this in a moment which is one of my pet hates in terms of fertility diagnosis, is the unexplained infertility diagnosis, and a lot of people who go through secondary infertility are labeled with unexplained infertility. Now, why is that? It's not because it's unexplainable. It's just that typically, in the standard healthcare system and medical cases around the world, it did not give to getting clarity and understanding why it's really people aren't conceiving Because, again, we are more preoccupied from a public health perspective with population and with what happens in terms of and also cost effectiveness.

Gabriela Rosa: 7:07

Really. So there's a huge impact of the financial components if you think about it, if the majority of the population can see without trying and population train, you know, fertility trains are the same or slightly increasing. That's really all that matters across the globe. But when we bring that down to the individual and the heart fake and the pain and the suffering that people go through when they aren't able to conceive, and especially when that goes on for year after year after year and sometimes decades, the burden physical, emotional, financial on these couples isn't meant. So there is a very important reason to start to understand why these challenges occur and what to do about them. And it becomes much more prevalent with the number of years that somebody has experienced difficulty trying to conceive. They can see it because at that point they've invested so much of themselves, of their lives, of their relationship, to get to a point of I still have no baby that it becomes a huge trauma, right.

Gabriela Rosa: 8:20

But again, if we look at why these things occur in the first place and we go back to population studies, we look at the fact that at three months out of time, the pregnancy is typically what it takes and that doesn't happen when it starts in questions because the addition of these obstacles, sometimes minor as there may be, because many women who have experienced or have been labeled with infertility whether it's secondary or primary, or unexplained, whatever it is they will have been told somewhere along the way a couple of things Everything is normal, just keep trying, which always it never ceases to bring.

Gabriela Rosa: 9:03

I don't know. I go through various emotions when I hear patients tell me this, because if everything is normal and you have no business having a baby, then why don't you have one? Or why don't you? Why aren't you holding your second or third child that is so desired? So it's clear that that is not the case. There is an issue, even if you're being told that there's nothing wrong. Just keep trying. Many, many couples, unfortunately and I see this very frequently they run out of time going around in circles being told that everything is normal and they're trying things and trying things that they think are the right things for them, but unfortunately they're just more of the same thing that is given than more of the same results.

Gabriela Rosa: 9:50

You see and so and that's a big challenge for people because it makes you know one of the things that I hear from my patients all the time is how not only this harsh and it makes them, but it makes them start doubting themselves right on a deep, deep level, because if you think that you are doing everything you can and you're still not getting the outcome, and you're putting in the effort, the energy, the time, the money and still you are nowhere closer to your outcome, you start to think hang on a second, there's something wrong with me, there's something wrong with my ability to create this, you know, natural and normal outcome that everybody else seems to be okay with. So there clearly has to be something wrong with me, which I really want to make sure. If nothing else, people get nothing else out of this conversation. There is nothing wrong with you, okay, and I think that that's such an important thing for women to understand.

Gabriela Rosa: 10:42

If a couple is to understand that fertility is a team sport. It's not one person trying to overcome fertility for two people or have a baby, whether they've had one in the past or not. It doesn't happen just by one person putting in the effort, because we do need to help, again, it's in order for that to happen. So, and when these obstacles or these minor factors start to accumulate in a person's situation, what ends up happening is this you add one and again this is based on epidemiological research and population data around the world you add one minor factor to the equation and all of a sudden, we go from an average of three months time to pregnancy to an average of two years. So there's a huge compounding effect. That goes on. You add a second minor factor and we go to seven years, and a third gives us an average of 40 years time to pregnancy. No one has 40 years to get pregnant, right?

Peter Lap: 11:40

So seven is cutting up at a time.

Gabriela Rosa: 11:44

Absolutely. Seven is a huge amount, especially when it's not at 30, right, and things haven't been straightforward. And sometimes when people start even earlier, a couple come to me who were trying for 20 years and I've put that story actually in fertility breakthrough my book, which, by the way, I'm more than happy to gift to anyone who's listening into the podcast. I'm sure that you put the code in the show notes and people can access that as a gift from us. But you know, in this particular story what was really fascinating? This couple came to me that had already failed through multiple factors about, yes, they had had multiple natural treatments that they had gone through and really, you know, nobody had taken the time in 20 years think about that, peter in 20 years no one has properly taken the time to understand what are all of the gap in this case, what are all the places of opportunity, what are the line of factors or obstacles that are getting in the way, that are preventing the results that we want to?

Gabriela Rosa: 12:52

see and that's one of the things that, over the years, have become immensely fascinated by and very meticulous in addressing, because, for me, what I want to see really is okay, you are being told that everything is normal, yet we don't have a baby. We've spent thousands and thousands of dollars on fertility treatments, which you know it's not cheap. Depending on where you are around the world, it can be upwards of $30,000 for one cycle.

Peter Lap: 13:20

Oh sure, it's remarkably expensive yeah.

Gabriela Rosa: 13:23

Right and so, and if you think about it, that a retrospective analysis on reproductive medicine assisted by a refractive medicine that was conducted in 2000s demonstrated that in order to have a close to 80% life birth rate through IVF, you need it on average eight cycles of IVF.

Peter Lap: 13:44

Is it that high? Is it that insane?

Gabriela Rosa: 13:48

Isn't it crazy? And so what happens is that if you keep thinking that everything is normal, just keep crying. You know, eight cycles down the track, you may end up with a baby, but you may also not. And if you haven't had a baby, you would have people who have 30 and people who have two right, and so it's like which one are you? And sometimes you know people just say I cannot continue doing this, and fair enough, because one of the things that I see in my clinic is that when couples come to us and they've tried multiple different things that haven't worked, we have a close to 80% life birth rate by going through the process, with 70% of those people conceiving that, and even though in the past they were told that you know they might need donor egg, because this is the other thing that happens they're told that everything is normal, just keep trying. Or when treatments don't work I know your eggs are no good you need donor egg.

Peter Lap: 14:41

Sure yeah.

Gabriela Rosa: 14:43

And this is, you know, something that most women will hear around their reproductive life. And the truth is and I know that to be very different because in my clinic, as part of the retrospective analysis that we've just conducted, I'm presenting that at Harvard next month as part of my Masters in Public Health and you know, one of the things that we've ascertained is that, for the vast majority of our patients who have been told that they need donor egg in order to be able to take home a baby, only 6% actually need donor egg.

Peter Lap: 15:14

Six that's a remarkable thing.

Gabriela Rosa: 15:17

Absolutely, absolutely. And so, when it comes to, you know, the question that you asked where do people start and what does it that people do? I mean, the very first place that we need to start is understanding what are we actually dealing with, right? Because imagine it from this perspective. So many people told, oh, there's nothing wrong with trying whatever else, but the truth is, when was the last time that it solved the problem that you didn't even know you had?

Peter Lap: 15:45

Yeah, absolutely.

Gabriela Rosa: 15:46

Right. So if we don't get a clear diagnosis and a clear understanding of what's happening and why it's happening and what do we need to do about it in that specific situation, we again continue going around in circles. You see, what happens and I see this very, very clearly in my clinic is that you might have 10 men diagnosed with a low sperm motility which is, it doesn't swim very well.

Gabriela Rosa: 16:16

Yeah, so this is a swim that's swimming very well. But those 10 men with low sperm motility, there might be 10 different reasons as to why that man has been impacted in that way. And this ties into a question that I get asked very frequently and many people, especially those who are experiencing secondary motility, which is the inability to conceive after previously being able to conceive and have healthy babies, right. So this is an experience and that is this, is that what I've come to call the heroin addict syndrome. You know, once I had a patient in my clinic.

Gabriela Rosa: 16:55

I know it's very strange, but once I told you the story I was puzzled when I first heard this. But I was like what? This woman? She's sitting across from me in my clinic and she's crying, as you know, as normal, but people who are struggling so much to have a baby and all of a sudden, you know I was sitting in the whole in the space with her and all of a sudden she gets really angry. I could see like her face, transparent all in front of me.

Gabriela Rosa: 17:21

I was thinking, oh my God, what's going to unleash here and she goes. You know, maybe I should just start shooting up heroin. Maybe then I would get pregnant and have a baby. I'm like, hey, that is a very strange and odd thing to say. But I thought, okay, let's understand where this is coming from. And so I was like you know, that's a really interesting thing that you're saying. I've learned to understand what major say that and you know what makes you feel this way. She goes. Well, you know, here I am doing all of the right things, you know, I eat healthier, exercise and do all of the right things and I can't have a baby. And so these heroin addicts out there who literally just have sex and pop out baby, you know, one after the other and I was like, oh, hey, now I understand where this is coming from.

Gabriela Rosa: 18:14

And I was able in that moment then to help her understand why that actually was the case, and I think that this is such an important thing to understand because we often think you know when we are experienced, and I personally have experienced second dream fertility, so I know exactly what that feels like.

Gabriela Rosa: 18:28

I actually experienced primary and second dream fertility and I was able to do that through my own program and doing all the things that I recommend my patients to do, and have my first child. And then, between my first child and my second child, there was about a 19 month period where I had been trying, you know, to get pregnant, wanting to get pregnant, but my cycle is going to come back, and there was a lot of irregularity happening and if I didn't do what it is, I would have been a little bit more nervous and I was like I'm going to be a little bit more nervous, I'm not wanting to get pregnant, but my cycle is going to come back and there was a lot of irregularity happening. And if I didn't do what it is that I do and know what it is, that I know, I definitely know that I'm just being, you know, in that kind of roller coaster of being told everything is normal, just keep trying. But when this lady came and said this, you know it enabled me to help her understand something very important and that's the impact of the environment on our body's ability to respond and that's to do with epigenetics.

Gabriela Rosa: 19:31

You see, we can be. We're born with women. We're born with all the eggs we will ever have. Men have a production of sperm. That happens, you know, on a daily basis, essentially, and you know the distinction and the difference between how our bodies are impacted will be determined by, essentially, what we are exposed to in our environment. So, you know, you might have a genetic predisposition, but it's only triggered by what goes on in your environment. For example, we probably have all heard of stories where somebody was, you know, has never smoked a day in their life and died of lung cancer, when you know you have somebody else who's a chain smoker and has never developed any lung issues whatsoever. They might die of other things, right, but cancer wasn't one of them. Okay, and so you know what I mean, right? Sure, so so basically, it's this whole thing of the fact that the way in which our body responds, so the gene loads the gum, but the environment pulls the trigger.

Gabriela Rosa: 20:35

And so it's rushed. And so what happens is that for us it's easy to contextualize and understand that we, our bodies, still very much operate like it did 10,000 years ago, when our main aim was to run away from the sabertooth tiger. Right, so the purpose was survival. Let's not worry in that moment of having to run away from the sabertooth tiger, let's not worry so much about digesting our food, because we're about to become food, but that's not really important. And then you know, nowadays it's translated into a lot of gut and digestive issues.

Peter Lap: 21:11

Yeah.

Gabriela Rosa: 21:12

Period. But immune system wise, why would you worry about, you know, the little bug inside of you, when the big one, running out for you, is about to eat you? Sure?

Gabriela Rosa: 21:22

Let's not worry about that at all, because that's not relevant to this moment. And then, finally, reproduction. Why would you even consider a thing of having a baby when you're about to become food, right? So these organs and systems when we are in distress, when we are feeling challenged, when we are having to adapt In our systems even though we might not be running away from the sabertooth tiger, but the body is responding in that same way. That crisis, that's the end.

Gabriela Rosa: 21:53

Then what happens is that we are all of a sudden in a predicament, and the predicament is that we are going to have to focus our attention and energy and nutrients into the most important organs and systems that will help us ward off immediate danger.

Gabriela Rosa: 22:12

We don't do that, we may not survive. Therefore, everything else becomes irrelevant, and so we focus our attention and energy on the systems and we shut down the ones that are not essential for warding off immediate danger. And that can be why the degeneration, immune function, reproduction, all shut down to a certain extent. And this is important for us to realise, because when we understand that we've got these drivers in our kind of biology that help us to regulate what goes on in terms of our reproduction, then we understand that. Okay, there are explosives in our day to day environment that will trigger a response in our system depending on what's going on out there and, mind you, the sabertooth tiger, in this case, when we're talking about fertility, can be a toxic exposure, it can be a certain dietary exposure, it can be radiation exposure. You know, I was talking about this before in terms of men with 10 different reasons as to why they might have different fertility problems. Well, for one man, he might keep his mobile phone in his pocket, which will decidedly affect his fertility.

Gabriela Rosa: 23:27

For another man, he might actually drive a truck for a living and what might happen is that he's sitting for most of the time, which will heat up his vesicles and also create fertility problems. For another man, it might be that he's making a certain kind of medication that is not, you know, his best interest. For another one, it might be that he's having an unhealthy diet or junk food, which has been completely directly correlated with lower sperm parameters.

Gabriela Rosa: 23:56

So can you see, and sometimes it might be a combination of all of those things to a certain extent. So when we talk about, you know, the fact that the heroin addict syndrome, if we go back to that, and we talk about the fact that you know we're doing all of the quote unquote right things and not getting pregnant with somebody else who perhaps isn't and all you know the brother or the sister or the aunt who did all the wrong things and got pregnant it doesn't actually matter to the individual who is not getting pregnant, you see, because what happens is this if your brother or your sister or your aunt, or even your mother, or even your grandmother's bloat and were able to carry a healthy pregnancy and again I'll put healthy in quotation- marks because we know that there are major impacts, you know, in terms of a child's health.

Gabriela Rosa: 24:48

Just because they're born with one head and two arms and two legs doesn't mean that a child's healthy, absolutely Right.

Gabriela Rosa: 24:54

So we need to take that into account. But let's just, for all intents and purposes, say that yes, we've got a healthy baby. What we need to understand is that, for that person, their weakness or their susceptibility in terms of their system is not their reproductive system. You see, for them it might be their digestion, or it might be their immunity, or it might be their nervous system. Whatever it is, it's not their reproduction or at least not in this time of their life.

Gabriela Rosa: 25:24

This is why I say that sometimes what we need to do really is we need to stop comparing ourselves to people we know, to other people out there, and what has worked for them and what it is that they needed to do in order to overcome infertile checkers, carriage, because ultimately, that would be different for every person who experiences this very challenge or this struggle. Because for you, it might be that what's happening is that your reproduction is being directly affected by your environmental factor, by the things that are around you, and that is really all that matters. And we study minds, then we need to ask the question, right? If that's the case, what are the places that are being affected, how are they being affected and what do I need to do about them?

Peter Lap: 26:15

Absolutely See. This is what I always tell all my listeners as well and all my members as well you have to take the personalized approach. This is why I always tell people stay away from Facebook and support groups and asking people well, what do you do? Because what other people did? I mean, Wendy and I, my wife and I don't have kids because we couldn't have kids and we, fairly early on, were okay, if it isn't for us, it isn't for us. All you really get in the beginning is well, you have to wear boxers, not briefs, right, when you're talking about low, don't keep your phone in the pocket.

Peter Lap: 26:55

There's a thing now the truck drivers. It's the vibration that gets you that sort of thing. But other than asking what works for you is not really a good question to ask people to actually help yourself, Because you have to. Everybody starts at a different place, Like when we're talking. I always talk about the sad math. If you have to go to Melbourne and I have to get to Melbourne Right, Then I mean I come from the UK, I was just different. It's not pointed me asking you how you got there, because it's completely irrelevant from where I am and that is very, very key indeed.

Gabriela Rosa: 27:46

So I think it's such a great analogy, actually, that you use, because I agree with you 100%. You know so many times, people, we have a free online program that we run, called the Fataliti Challenge, and over the years in fact, this year is the 10th year of the Fataliti Challenge it's been an event that has now seen over 140,000 people in more than 110 countries participate in, getting immense value and understanding about what are the things that could affect them specifically, because what you're saying is so true, and again it goes back to that discussion 10 men with fertility issues, why? Right. But I love that analogy of if we both need to get to Melbourne, being that you are in the UK and I'm in Sydney, australia.

Gabriela Rosa: 28:31

It's going to be a very different view, a very different process, a very different, you know way. I'm like driving it, right, you might catch a plane. You might be deciding to go by boat. It's going to take you a whole longer, but it's possible, right, it's possible, and it might be that that's within your life's parameters, that that's what you want to do. You might want to take a cruise to Australia, right, and some other people might want to do it in a different way, and so I think that that's also very important. It's about how does the individual wants to journey through that process also comes into consideration.

Gabriela Rosa: 29:09

But I agree that the absolute worst possible thing that people do and I think this often because it wastes so much of their resources and so much of their time is ask another layperson what do you think I should do?

Gabriela Rosa: 29:23

Or what have you done that has worked for you? Because, truthfully, they might know and sometimes I see people giving each other kind of recommendations in my group and even though we put in that you know people should not be giving recommendations if they're not going to do so, people still do. They love, you know, we all love to kind of give our opinion and often I see the most incorrect type of recommendations together and I have to intervene. I have to jump in and say, ok, look, thank you, and these are the things that you need to take into account and to into consideration. You know, because otherwise, think about it If you think that somebody else, if you give your power away and somebody else knows more than you and you then follow through that approach or you follow through that process and really it gets you no closer to your outcome, you have wasted a lot of time and I've been already.

Gabriela Rosa: 30:19

You know, some of my patients have wasted years trying and implementing ineffective ways of getting to the outcome that they're looking for, and so it's very sad to see, because for so many, it actually spells the difference between baby or no baby, and I think that that's something that we also need to take very much into account when it comes to what it is that we need to do. On the other hand and I think that this is something that's also very important for people to take into consideration and take into account is taking that question inward, and what do I mean by that? You know what do I do in order to overcome infertility. I think the very first thing that we can do other than, of course, understanding what we're dealing with, which is the most critical part of this whole conversation is starting to inquire about one thing that I like to talk about all the time, which is how do I act pregnant now to get pregnant later?

Peter Lap: 31:24

I saw that somewhere.

Gabriela Rosa: 31:28

Yeah, and I know that for a lot of people, when I first say that they go, what does that mean? You know, especially men, they're like I can't get pregnant. So what are you talking about exactly? So this is where I always invite the gentleman to kind of indulge me for a moment and kind of imagine and pretend that you could get pregnant, because you know, I know, that the population in the world would definitely decrease if that was the case, right, if men could actually get pregnant.

Gabriela Rosa: 31:54

Oh yeah, there's no chance of having one of one kids, it was one time, and then it's like nothing, nothing, nothing for me, I can do it now. So you know, and look, it is a terrible joke, but I love to make it because I can. Only, you know, the men squirming through that whole idea is actually quite funny to me. But if we were to consider and again, let's just, you know, all jokes aside, pretend that those partners could get pregnant, just stay the child and deliver a healthy baby, so I think it was okay.

Gabriela Rosa: 32:29

The most predominant question and I hear this on my patients all the time, you know, when they get pregnant, the very first thing they ask is am I going to have a healthy baby? Or what can I do, you know, in order to have a healthy baby? And with that is how this whole process, the sinking process, I started from you now to get pregnant later. Because if you think about it from this perspective, that if you had that, you know that little baby inside of you right now. And I was to ask you all right, peter, one of the things that you would absolutely start doing or stop doing right now in order to be able to give your child the best possible starting line. Give me a list, and I would ask for a list of what would you start doing and the list of what would you stop doing.

Peter Lap: 33:20

Yeah.

Gabriela Rosa: 33:21

I'm pretty sure that, based on your own habits, on your own lifestyle, on your own way of living, you would be pretty accurate in coming up with a list of the things that you would start and stop doing. Yeah there would be right like number one topic right number two, number three and so on and so forth. Does this make sense?

Peter Lap: 33:47

Yeah, I think everybody gets this. I see this a lot with personal training clients as well. Everybody knows what they're doing that they shouldn't really be doing, and everybody kind of knows what they should be doing, sure.

Gabriela Rosa: 34:02

Yeah, absolutely. And so when we start to think about it in most terms, this is where it gets interesting, because we know the things that we would absolutely start doing, the things we would absolutely stop doing. And so, in terms of how to act pregnant now, to get pregnant later, to optimize your child's health that is a concept and a premise that you put in place way before a conception is even in place, because, you see, by eight weeks of this nation, a baby's health blueprint is set for the rest of their life.

Gabriela Rosa: 34:39

So, they already have all of their little organs, all of them being a print. You know, what happens from eight weeks onwards is that that little embryo develops and grows, but everything else is pretty much there on that date. So what that means is that the time to optimize a child's health isn't at the site of a positive pregnancy test or a dating ultrasound. The time to optimize a couple of chances of conceiving and taking home a healthy baby is way before a conception is even in place. You see, as a that's not my experience.

Gabriela Rosa: 35:17

When we're talking about infertility, when we're talking about mystery, when we're talking about whether it's primary or secondary infertility or even unexplained infertility, we need to really understand this concept and start to operate from it.

Gabriela Rosa: 35:32

Because, if nothing else, as a foundation and often that is not enough, okay to really, when the couple has been going through infertility for many years we need to dig much deeper into the biochemistry, because what I talked about often is this whatever we see right now, whether it's inability to conceive, inability to keep a healthy pregnancy to term, this is an end result. It's an outcome of a biochemical chain reaction that has started way before the outcome has it can be seen. So, that being the case, what we need to understand is that we don't just take one step back from the outcome to resolve the problem, because that often, even though that's how IVF operates, that often gives us more of the same result, and if that wasn't true, we wouldn't have a situation where we need, on average, eight IVF cycles get close to 80% of our first patient.

Gabriela Rosa: 36:28

So you can argue with me on that point, but the reality is that we need to see what life demonstrates, and certainly what science demonstrates is this fact so, we need to then walk back and it's almost like taking 10,000 steps of you right downwards of that whole situation and figure out, okay, what are we dealing with, and then we can see how it's affecting us, what are the steps, the obstacles, the mind of actors, the things that are actually getting in the middle of that biochemical chain reaction that's creating the outcome that we're seeing.

Gabriela Rosa: 36:59

And then from there we start to go okay, these are some areas of that that we don't know what's happening here, that we need to explore further, places of opportunity for us to explore further, and that's how we then build a case to understand, on a very personalized and customized way, what's happening for this person and this couple in this situation right now. Because what has happened previously ie the fact that they've had two, three, four pregnancies before, but they're struggling to have their fifth, or they have had no pregnancies and they're struggling to have their first, or whatever permutation of that conversation we are having the outcome is the same we still don't have the healthy baby of our dreams in our arms that we want to create, and so we need to really backtrack and step back and go and not think, by the way, that this is just a woman's issue and a woman's thing to fix or resolve, because fertility is a thing, for it takes 50% of the male contribution.

Gabriela Rosa: 38:02

What you're wishing for the whole thing is 50% male, 50% female contribution, but each partner has to put in their 100%, because if we don't have that, then we also end up with a situation where we're leaving an opportunity on the table. You see, a lot of times couples are told or a woman is told all your eggs are no good, you need done already. And the reason that we see that in our clinic they don't really is because we actually optimize both situation, both partners at the same time. Because you see the egg's responsibility to fix the DNA fragmentation and virtualization within the sperm. So if the sperm isn't the absolute best quality that it can be, guess what the egg is going to have to utilize so much more of its energy resources, nutrients and everything that it has to develop an embryo to fix the sperm.

Gabriela Rosa: 39:00

You see it's really, at the end of the day, is always the resources, Because if we already came at the situation with a term that is the best possible quality that it will ever be, we would be having a different conversation. The egg came to a portion and a portion that energy, that energy that it has to create the outcome that we're looking for, to actually making that outcome possible, then trying to fix the sperm and the DNA fragmentation within it and the toxins that need to be dealt with it, and so on and so forth. You see, enhanced white fertility is a thing, because you need both of those cells to be working effectively together.

Gabriela Rosa: 39:42

But if we take this premise further, which is the act in pregnant now to get pregnant later, and understand that each partner needs to do their part in terms of this, this is one of the key differentiators from how we get the results that we get for our patients versus how standard therapy gets results for their patients, because I don't know if you ever went through as just the reproductive technologies or treatments with your partner, with your wife, but what many couples experience is the fact that the man literally is just told and they're in a time to come and drop a sperm sample.

Peter Lap: 40:20

Yeah, pretty much, yes, right.

Gabriela Rosa: 40:23

And so what happens is it's like you might as well have a sperm going on, because that's really the contribution of that man to that situation, where, in truth, there is so much more than it could be contributing. And most men that I speak to, they actually are really bummed out for lack of a better word of the fact that they feel like, hey, I'm taking a second, why is it that I am just being thrown aside in this whole conversation? They feel helpless, they feel hopeless because they can't make things better for their partner, but, above all, they feel like, hey, I'm taking a second, I want to help, but I've been told that there's nothing I can do. And is there anything more that's happening in any aspect of our lives to be told that, oh no, there is nothing you can do to improve your situation, to improve your results? I really don't think there is. To be honest, no, it's right.

Peter Lap: 41:21

I come back to the boxes and briefs sort of example. That is kind of the standard one, just make sure your balls don't get too hot, and that is pretty much it, and it's exactly. It's kind of like what you said. I mean, we went through the early stages of nah we're a bit older, let's see why this doesn't work. And the doctor in D says, yeah, just drop something and drop something off. And that was pretty much the extent of it. That's also where we left it, because for us it wasn't that big a deal.

Peter Lap: 41:53

I'm fairly old school. If it's not meant to be, it's not meant to be that sort of thing. And I'm not saying everybody else should think that way, I'm just saying that that's how it was for us, but it is indeed. I do hear from other people and some of my clients that are going through IVF or any sort of that are struggling to conceive a third or a fourth even, that the guy kind of just keeps doing what he's already doing, not intentionally wrong or anything like that. But quite often the onus and the pressure is all on the behavior of the woman, the hormonal levels of the woman, and there's very little, little contribution asked of the man other than, yeah, she could make it a bit less stressful around the house and be nice. You know, if you could do the washing up every now and again, you'd be a top bloke.

Gabriela Rosa: 42:53

Well, that is pretty much it. Wow, this is a moment I would have a bigger list for you, that's pretty all we got. I'm sure you would. I'm so most of our patients would too.

Peter Lap: 43:09

Oh yeah, but it's from the medical point of view. It's exactly like what you said early on. It tends to be that, when it comes to the NHS at least.

Gabriela Rosa: 43:20

And not only the NHS, may I add because, we treat patients in every continent other than Antarctica. The majority of our patients live in the US. We came earlier. But literally we have patients in every continent and I see this in medical systems around the world. The NHS is you know. In fact, I mean it's the same in the US, because even though you don't have universal healthcare in the US, not every insurance company actually covers the whole spectrum of paternity therapy.

Gabriela Rosa: 43:51

So what happens is people who actually end up having the best access to service are the people who can afford it, you see, and so what ends up happening is that there is a huge disparity in how people actually access the delivery of service. But also this is the other issue that I think is so important to take into consideration is that right now, no matter where you are in the world, if you go to your general practitioner and you have the conversation or you open your mouth and say I'm trying to get pregnant and it's not really happening, they won't even ask you another question. They will literally just open up their little referral page.

Gabriela Rosa: 44:29

they will give you a referral to an IVF clinic or an IVF doctor and they will say here you go, just go and see the IVF doctor. So then people will go okay, well, the doctor has told me to go and see my IVF doctor or the reproductive technologist or whoever it is that can help me next. And they get there and literally the conversation is no more than five minutes to go. Okay, tell me about your history and very minimal things, really. They're asking you about sexually transmitted infections. They're asking you about last special period. They're asking you about regularity of cycle. Have you had your tubes checked? Have you had sleep analysis done? Have you had an ultrasound? Are you ovulating? That is the extent of the conversation, which literally takes about five minutes. And then they're told okay, well, look, here's the start date for your next cycle.

Gabriela Rosa: 45:18

I think that IVF is really the next best option for you. Start date is such and such. Come in and see the nurse on this day and pick up your drugs and get started. Yeah, that's pretty much how I got it. Okay, I hang on hard horses. What can I do, you know, just to prove my chances of getting pregnant. I don't know. There's nothing you can do.

Peter Lap: 45:41

No, this is pretty.

Gabriela Rosa: 45:43

Have I described the average typical infertility experience?

Peter Lap: 45:47

Yeah, and I think that goes for infertility stuff and all my listeners will relate this to their postnatal, the postpartum issues journey as well. Whether it's pelvic floor weakness or dynastasis or anything like that is usually ah, this is just what we're gonna do. Anything I need to do now, you just need to shut up, do what I tell you to do. If you could do that, then be awesome, because it's like you said, and on a 90%, on a 90% scale. That works Right for a large sex. It works for enough people.

Gabriela Rosa: 46:22

And for your postnatal patients, it would be just a situation of oh no, no, you just have to wait, just wait.

Peter Lap: 46:29

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I have diastasis right now. Yeah, how, yes, how exactly. How does that work? It's what you said earlier on just give it time, and if it doesn't work, then we would recommend surgery, because it, does it only two things, and it is exactly like that. There's what because it's what you said earlier on with regards to the health system is set up to function on a micro level. It's not set up to function on a micro, individual level. We hope that it works for the individual.

Gabriela Rosa: 47:08

Yeah, absolutely, and I think in my opinion, having studied cost-effective nursing health care at Harvard, I can say that the main thing that healthcare systems around the world look at and it broke my heart when I discovered this, because I was trained as a naturopathic doctor, have been working in this field for obviously the last 20 years, and when I learned that the way and the method of making decisions in terms of healthcare, population level decisions is that if the cost of treatment and prevention, if the cost of prevention is the same as the cost of treatment, let's not prevent it. No, it's true, because we might as well just treat the problem when it comes, because if the cost is the same, then but then you've got to understand that prevention and treatment are two very different things. I mean, think about it from this perspective. But if the cost of preventing I mean, my dad has been diagnosed.

Gabriela Rosa: 48:11

Two years ago he was diagnosed with colorectal cancer and it was quite a fast, you know fast-stage diagnosis because he had had his colonoscopy that he should have. And in fact, then please, if you're over 45, I know that they say 50, but just give me out on this one If you're over 45, go get a colonoscopy. And you know, because he had hemorrhoids for years and years and years and years and years and he just thought, you know, first of all, it's the whole male you know kind of bravado, of like nobody's going to touch my back, you know, kind of thing.

Gabriela Rosa: 48:46

So he had hemorrhoids for years at play. Then he just thought it was normal and part of his family. He took his. Most of his brothers had the same, and so for years and years, instead of having, you know, his preventative assessments and screenings, he just didn't. And then one day it was like I was saying to him like what, you're 65, I think he was 65 by the time. You have never had a colonoscopy. And he's like no. I said, ok, this is where we need to draw the line.

Gabriela Rosa: 49:15

You know, so we bad did him and like literally and I'm very good at that when I need to be so I was like constantly going hey, have you booked in, you have your schedules, you're a colonoscopy. Hey, when is the outcome? I want to see it, so why am I happening? It was the thing that actually didn't kill him immediately, because he was. He went to have his colonoscopy literally from the colonoscopy table. He went to have surgery, but very advanced baseball cancer, colorectal had to have many different types of treatments and lots and lots of different things. What I can tell you is that now he's had, between chemotherapy venal as well as oral and radiation therapy, multiple CT scans, mris, pet scans you know, you name it. Now, have you actually done the work of prevention much, much earlier on? Yes, the cost of the burden to his health, mental health, life, lifestyle you know any name quality of life at this point would have been completely different to completely different trajectory.

Gabriela Rosa: 50:31

Sure, and him being proactive and figuring out, OK, one of the things that I can actually do to prevent an issue. Now, the cost of treatment is the same and probably, over time, the cost of prevention, because he probably would have been more aware of his food and his diet and his nutritional supplementation and other therapies and whatever else. The cost of prevention would have been similar but the quality of life remarkably different. Yeah absolutely.

Gabriela Rosa: 51:00

Not only for him but for us. You know, he's got, basically he's got myself and my system, my mom. So you know, for us it would have been a very different experience had he been, you know, more proactive in terms of what's going on, in terms of what needed to happen for him. So this is the distinction. The reason that I give this analogy is because it's very smart, right For this kind of situation. We can't usually see that on a fertility situation play out just as stark and majorly, but really it's a similar thing. And so when the cost of prevention equals or is similar to the cost of treatment, we don't prevent. And it's like why? Because our quality of life experience now the track is remarkably different when we do.

Peter Lap: 51:52

Absolutely.

Gabriela Rosa: 51:54

And I think that's a really important takeaway, you know, for most people, because there is a link between fertility and mortality or infertility and mortality.

Gabriela Rosa: 52:03

So, if there are issues that are going on that are preventing a couple or an individual from creating a healthy baby, we really need to understand why. Because there are links in terms of, you know, fertility being a biomarker for optimum health. And again, this is where the conversation of prevention versus therapy and treatment becomes an important one, because if we don't know what we don't know and we don't know what we need to address, because we don't even know what's getting in the way of creating the outcome that we want, it might be cancer-free person, you know. It might be other bio factors or biomarkers that need to be addressed but that will eventually develop into much more difficult to treat and resolve disease. So we need to figure out, okay, what are we dealing with so that we not only prevent the heart shape of infertility, but we also have an impact, positive impact on our long-term quality of life down the time.

Peter Lap: 53:02

And I think that's a very important piece as well.

Peter Lap: 53:05

Yeah, because that again, that is not something that you would consider. We are very good as humans, especially this day and age, only looking at the now. We're not that great at looking back too far, as in like what you said, take your 10,000 steps and look to take the overall view and we're terrible, absolutely terrible at looking into the future. We just know that right now we don't have time for something, and you know it's the same as if you don't make time for your health, you make time for your illness later on. It's that sort of thing. You know if you eat crap food now, you're not sick immediately. I get it, but keep doing it in 20 years from now. But we have in a different conversation.

Gabriela Rosa: 53:49

Absolutely, and you know, on that, it's actually quite interesting because nutritionally, and when we look at nutritional epidemiology as a matter of exposure, being the diet and you know disease being the outcome.

Gabriela Rosa: 54:04

We know that there are so many links between diet, ie exposure and disease, the outcome of infertility and what a lot of people. What you said is actually the reason as to why we don't pay so much attention to it is because we think that that cake full of trans fat and damaged components and artificial, you know everything now has a lesser cost than the missing out on the cake.

Peter Lap: 54:35

Yeah, right, so the lesser cost is.

Gabriela Rosa: 54:37

You know we don't equate the cost to our health in the long term to the pleasure that we're going to have right now. So you know if I can have the pleasure right this minute and that's going to change to the mind taste lines for five minutes and the potential of disease is when, in 20 years down the track, I'll just eat the cake.

Peter Lap: 54:55

Yeah, and it's. I always put it even starker than that. I used to Pringles example. You know the whole kind of Pringles. I always tell people have five Pringles, if you want to Pringle, have five Pringles, mark and then throw the rest out. And people usually look at me like I'm absolutely insane and I explained to them. A kind of Pringles over here is like two quid, so three dollars or something like that, three American dollars. If you have five, then you'll be fine. You've had the, you've had your fill of Pringles and the law of diminished returns and applies. You're number six and seven, even though you don't really want to, but you have them. A personal training session with me is about 40 quid. Eat that kind of Pringles and you'll pay 40 quid for a PT session. And it's cheaper to throw the Pringles out, and we're not even talking about health implications. It just is Just buy some, throw them in the bin, because it's cheaper to do that than it is to finish the things.

Peter Lap: 55:55

And it's exactly that and in the moment, the consideration is just well, I have them, I want them. Yes.

Gabriela Rosa: 56:03

Yes, no, look, I actually. I love running allergy. And it also makes me laugh, because isn't it interesting and I think that you probably will see this all the time, you know and isn't it interesting how people think that exercise is such a painful thing to do?

Gabriela Rosa: 56:19

that they have to do it. It's like a punishment on them, as opposed to having a different view and again, this equates very much to fertility as well and to modify the risk factors in terms of fertility, because the power that we have in the moment in terms of our modifiable risk factors is the power of adjusting aspects of our lifestyle, of our environment of our diet.

Gabriela Rosa: 56:45

You know all of that and most people equate the ability to do those things to punishment because, think about it, it means that they would potentially quit smoking and quit drinking alcohol and then quit, you know, doing these things and they think that that's punishment right.

Gabriela Rosa: 57:04

But you see, the reality is that those things are the very things that makes us be sick and unhealthy and unable to have the quality of life in our future that we want to have. And isn't it interesting that when we change that conversation from having to, you know, have to eat well or have to exercise to a conversation of you know what, so many people will wake up today in an ICU bed, in a hospital who will probably not make it through the day. And I get to exercise, I get to make life a healthy lifestyle choices, I get to have healthy, nutritious, nourishing food, like for me, that is a conversation game changer series talking to me on my phone, on my watch. That is a game changing conversation as far as I'm concerned, from that internal motivation perspective, because if I can all of a sudden realize that actually this is not a punishment and not only it's not a punishment.

Gabriela Rosa: 58:13

it enables me to be able to do the things that I value the most in my life, whatever that might be If you're a painter or an artist, or if you are whatever it is that you do, that you love, that you value, and you can actually start to correlate and understand how you doing the things that get you to be at your best actually enable you to do the things that you want to do in your life. Again, the conversation changes completely.

Peter Lap: 58:44

Absolutely.

Gabriela Rosa: 58:45

And it's not important for people to really connect those dots in that way, because otherwise what we end up with is this whole kind of mindset, victim mentality of oh I'm being punished, that I need to actually do these things through my fertility. It's like actually, you are the lucky one, my darling, because if the heroin addict had to do these things and had the need to do these things, probably would save her life in a long term.

Peter Lap: 59:12

Mm-hmm sure.

Gabriela Rosa: 59:16

So I think that's such an amazing thing, and I mean for me. I actually have to say that this is a completely personal note. I know that when I had my children, I have my children now, nine and six I had that mindset.

Gabriela Rosa: 59:29

You know I had the mindset of like I was completely exhausted, having given birth to two children, breastfed for two years each, so literally four years of breastfeeding, and you know pregnancy, and all of that running a clinic, running, you know, a global clinic, it's stuff, and all of this, and I was exhausted.

Gabriela Rosa: 59:48

I was feeling like gosh, this is just all too much, and so I left my health goal my health goal to a huge extent and to one day I realized I couldn't my my my strength was so poor in terms of my back muscles and I was getting some of my patients of my ribs all the time. Like literally I couldn't even hold a two year old, you know. Like I was still breastfeeding my two year old, I would literally put my arms to be able to breastfeed or I would carry him and he could be sure I'd have a subluxation of my rib and I had to put my car practice three times that week to be able to breathe. And it was this horrible situation and to one day I realized that I can't live like this.

Gabriela Rosa: 1:00:28

You know, if I continue making these choices that don't support my health, my well-being and my life, my life in 20 years from now is going to be a very different outcome that I don't want to even experience, so don't even want to think about it.

Gabriela Rosa: 1:00:43

So that's when I then decided to think I need to do something completely different. And postnatally, you know, you do need to take care of your body in a different way. I mean, for me, I started with, you know, I went to a physio to figure out what was happening to my pelvic floor and to my abdominal muscles and it all done, and I think that that's really such an important thing to be able to train. And I found a trainer that could actually help me with postnatal training, because it's very different you know from you, just as a healthy young person, doing whatever training it is, that you think you need to do the very different situations. I love what it is that you're doing because it really does give women a completely different understanding of their body and how to really support themselves through that process.

Peter Lap: 1:01:30

Yeah, no, no, you're bang on. You're absolutely right in that. If you take that approach of a bit of gratitude and I've had people on the podcast before that like gratitude coaches and all that sort of stuff and I'm not that fine online, I don't keep a gratitude journal but, much like yourself, I used to have a proper job like 10, 15 years ago and the level of stress that brought with it because I'd been raised on the whole make as much money as you can, work as hard as you can, retire by the time you're 65. And then you travel, then you get to have fun. Yes, that's the downside is you have a heart attack by the time you're 45. But it's a price of pain, but you have a nice house and a big car and all that sort of stuff.

Peter Lap: 1:02:14

So I had to do the same. I had to do the same. I just had to take a step back and just go. Dude, if I'm not enjoying what I'm doing now, then what's the point?

Peter Lap: 1:02:23

And I don't mean in a way that a lot of people seem to think that exercise or eating healthy and all that sort of stuff. Eating healthy gets me to feel nice. It means I can feel nice the following day. If I just eat dominoes an entire day, I feel like crap the following day. So I get to feel nice and I can afford decent food because I'm lucky and I live in the UK and we have relatively cheap and easy access to good quality produce and all that sort of thing. So I get to do those things.

Peter Lap: 1:02:59

So it's not the I have to give up loads of stuff to get what I want, because what I want is actually, I think, what most people is actually the simple things. It's like what you're talking about with regards to, with regards to fertility. Having a child is one of the simple things. It's a stupid business decision, economically, out of your mind, to have kids Very expensive indeed. We might be pricing it. There's never a good time to do it, if you just look at the bank balance. There's never a good time to add another child to the family because it's going to cost you 250 grand Plus, plus, yeah, and all the stress and all that sort of stuff that comes with it.

Gabriela Rosa: 1:03:45

Over a couple of decades at least.

Peter Lap: 1:03:48

Yeah, and then? So to get to enjoy the simple things you don't have to give much up is what I find.

Peter Lap: 1:03:58

You just have to indeed say OK, if I want to be able to get to enjoy this, which is exactly what you're doing, then I'm going to have to make certain changes that will benefit my benefit be as well. I like how you put the whole. The fertility is an indicator for future health, sort of thing as well. If you don't pay attention to certain things now, it's likely going to bite you in the bum later on.

Gabriela Rosa: 1:04:25

Anyways, yes, absolutely Absolutely.

Peter Lap: 1:04:28

It's actually it's a, in a way, it's a positive thing that people would be able to gain access to a fertility expert such as yourself. I'm not talking about the NHS IVF type, so the stuff that will really have a more of an in depth look into. Guys, if you change this behavior, if you change the situation, if you do X, y, z, you get to be healthier and that, in turn, is like going to be likely to lead to the baby that you want as well.

Gabriela Rosa: 1:05:01

Absolutely, and I think that the key takeaway message here is that there is so much people can do.

Peter Lap: 1:05:09

You know, there is.

Gabriela Rosa: 1:05:10

you can take charge of results, whatever your your heart is not a particular good feature If you adjust the way in which you understand the situation and if you adjust the way in which you act within it together as a couple, there is an incredible amount of change and optimization that can occur that absolutely leads to a different outcome, and most of the time, people need to understand that they can't do it on themselves.

Gabriela Rosa: 1:05:39

They can't do it on their own. They need to be able to have the guidance. Because what I often see and this is very unfortunate people come to me they're doing so much, they're doing so much so they're overwhelmed, like they're doing 80% of the work. That, unfortunately, only gives them 20% of their result.

Gabriela Rosa: 1:05:58

So, in essence, what ends up happening is that they continue going around in circles, even though they are doing so much, and, unfortunately, exhausting themselves in the process and impacting the relationship, because then people get really tired and then people start to argue about the fact that one person wants to do it, the other person doesn't want to do it, simply because they actually haven't had the understanding of the case. For you, the 20% of the effort that you need to put in is this, and that is going to give you 80% of your results, and really always someone with a trained eye can give you that understanding. So you can certainly spend the next 20 years trying to figure out, but that is probably going to make you run out of time to have a baby up to get one and that is the joy of the internet now.

Peter Lap: 1:06:44

I know there's a lot wrong and I slide social media off a lot, but the joy of the internet now is that someone in the UK can just go online, they can look you up and they can just say I have an expert in Australia that I can use, that I have access to where someone in America can find me in Scotland. And it never used to be that way and it's insane. And it's nice that you're able to connect with people and I'll come back to the support group thing again. It's nice that you're able to connect to people in similar situations, but just remember that it's even nicer that you get to connect to experts on the global level.

Peter Lap: 1:07:24

So it's nice to ask random people what they're doing. It's much smarter to just go through this expert and all this sort of stuff and you just go. Hey, gabriella is available, because I can just check out her website, fill in the contact form or do whatever I need to do, and get in touch and get some real help, rather than generically guessing and hoping to stumble upon the way that works for you, which is the way it works for postnatal exercise. That's the way it works for any sort of rehab exercise. That's the way it works for fertility. If you find someone with the knowledge to help you out, that can you immediately spot out. This is what you're doing.

Gabriela Rosa: 1:08:08

Yeah, absolutely, it makes all the difference. It's the difference between having the outcome that you're looking for and not and I think that for most people it can't be as obvious as fertility. In particular, it is finite. We can't just be going around here after a year thinking that we're doing something and getting the kind of lack of results and continuing to do that without the cost that is associated with that, which is the inability to have the outcome that you're looking for, the inability to hold the healthy baby, if you're dreaming your arms. So, absolutely, I think you've hit the nail on the head, so thank you so much for having me.

Peter Lap: 1:08:47

No, it's been a joy. It's been such a wonderful pleasure. It's been awesome. I'm not happy not to best stop recording and that is where we left the interview. Thanks again, very much to Gabriella for coming on.

Peter Lap: 1:08:59

Like I told you guys, did I not tell you guys that you would love this? It was one of my favorite interviews to do and obviously she's based in Sydney, which meant that I had to get up at like one o'clock in the morning to do the interview. At half past one in the morning and I don't know if you're anything like me, but chances are you are you know we are having a half decent night's sleep and you have to get up to do something and you're ah, jesus, I can't be bothered. Well, that was never the case of this one. I went back to bed at three o'clock and I was still excited about this amazing interview, like I like it. I mean, we touched on loads and loads of subjects here.

Peter Lap: 1:09:40

There's tons of links in the podcast description about where you can find Gabriella and she's very kind of me and this is a superb offer that she's given. She's very kindly offering every listener of the Healthy Pulse Natal Body Podcast free. Free physical edition of our latest book Fertility Breakthrough Overcoming Infertility and Recurrent Miscarriage when other treatments have failed. This is a must-read. This is a great offer. This is usually like $40 or something like that, so this is not like a shitty e-kendle book that everybody gets. This is not a pamphlet. This is the real deal and you can get it for free. Just enter the code HPMB3, that's Hotel Papa, november, bravo, foxtrot, romeo, echo, echo. So just HPMB3, also in the podcast description. When you go to our website, you add the book to your cart and there you go, it's all yours if you apply the coupon code, and it will be shipped to you. To you, the code is also in the podcast description, of course.

Peter Lap: 1:10:53

Again, thanks very much to Gabriela for coming on. I had a blast. This was one of the most fun I've been so lucky the last couple of weeks with Dr Cunney Burton coming on and now Gabriela very kindly giving up a whole hour of her time. And that is what it is. These lovely people come onto my crappy little podcast where I just answer people's questions and they donate a whole hour of their time. It's much appreciated If you have any questions at all, of course, as always, if you'd like to come onto the podcast, peter at HealthyPosnatalBodycom.

Peter Lap: 1:11:26

If you're an expert and you're like hey, pete, you haven't touched on this subject yet, peter at HealthyPostnatalBody. com, right, this is what we do on the HealthyPostnatalBody podcast. We just throw as much information out to you as we can give you expert advice, expert interviews and put you in touch with people that know what they're talking about. So if you're struggling to conceive at the moment or you're thinking about it and you're like what do I do? First of all, you get Gabriela's book. Like I said, you can get it for free, we're not even selling anything here and then you make sure you connect with Gabriela. All the links are in the podcast description.

Peter Lap: 1:12:08

She also hosts a podcast, by the way, which is coming out, which will be awesome, no doubt at all. And of course, you can go to her website and you can contact her and all that sort of thing. Like I said, thanks very much. That's me for the week. New bit of music coming up. You have a tremendous week and next week I have another guest for you. Oh, yes, I am that bloody lucky. Tell all your friends, of course, about the podcast. Rate the podcast. Like the podcast. Give us a like, please. Right, have an awesome week.

Gabriela Rosa: 1:12:41

Bye.