"Traveling Different": Travel advice for parents of neurodiverse children. With Dawn M. Barclay

Next month is Autism Acceptance Month and therefore I am bringing you this amazing interview I did in April 2022.

A couple of years ago I had the pleasure of talking to author Dawn M Barclay and, I think it's safe to say, I learned more from this conversation than from many others I have had over the past 10 years.

She's the author of a book called; "Traveling Different: Vacation Strategies for Parents of the Anxious, the Inflexible, and the Neurodiverse."

It's basically the travel bible for those on the autism spectrum as well as those with mood/attention disorders. Anyone who has a child with such issues or knows someone who does will benefit from the advice contained in this book, plus the tips for special needs children can soothe the hiccups of any family's travel.

In a fascinating conversation she basically takes us through the preparation stage of a trip through the trip and then we talk a bit about the return home.

She talks us through how to best prepare your child for traveling and a new routine/change in environment.
Then we talk about the type of trip that works best for neurodivergent children, things to take into account when booking your trip/places to stay.

She gives soo many tips that I couldn't possibly list them all here. All to make the trip as stress free for both you and your kid.

It's a wonderfully educational conversation with someone who clearly knows what they're talking about.

You can find Dawn, and her book.

On her website
On Facebook

On April the 2nd the book will be released in paperback form and it really is well worth seeing if you can get your hands on a copy.

As always; HPNB still only has 5 billing cycles.

So this means that you not only get 3 months FREE access, no obligation!

BUT, if you decide you want to do the rest of the program, after only 5 months of paying $10/£8 a month you now get FREE LIFE TIME ACCESS! That's $50 max spend, in case you were wondering.

Though I'm not terribly active on  Instagram and Facebook you can follow us there. I am however active on Threads so find me there!

And, of course, you can always find us on our YouTube channel if you like your podcast in video form :)

Visit healthypostnatalbody.com and get 3 months completely FREE access. No sales, no commitment, no BS.

Email peter@healthypostnatalbody.com if you have any questions, comments or want to suggest a guest/topic

Playing us out this week  "Something I can live form" by SPARKZ

Transcript

Peter Lap: 0:00

Hey, welcome to Healthy Postnatalbody podcast with your postnatal expert, Peter Lap, that, as always, be me. This is the podcast for the 24th of March 2024. I have a special episode from the vault for you today. In April 2022, I interviewed a wonderful author called Dawn M Barkley about neurodiverse children and all that sort of stuff.

Peter Lap: 0:23

The episode was called Traveling Different Travel Advice for Parents of Neurodiverse Children because he wrote a book at the time. Now, for Autism Acceptance Month, which starts next month, she is releasing the book in paper back form and she got in touch with me asking if I could do a little plug and o mind people that the book is out and all that sort of stuff and, like I said at the time, this is one of the most complete books you're ever going to find on the subject. So I'm also re-releasing the podcast episode. Anybody with a neurodiverse child or anyone who's neurodiverse themselves or knows anybody you're going to want to listen to this episode. I learned so much during this interview it was simply crazy so much stuff that I hadn't considered. That is just such a good idea. So you know, check it out. Without further ado? Here we go, cool, so we start with the first question.

Dawn: 1:46

Neurodiverse children are more sensitive to changes in their sensory environment Crowds, noise, even fluorescent lighting, new smells. It varies per child and every child is different, and while no child loves transitions, neurodiverse children cling to the more predictable routine. So a change like sleeping in a new place can really throw them off.

Peter Lap: 2:10

So because that makes traveling extremely tricky, right, because I obviously non neurodivergent kids, so to speak. Their routine gets messed up regularly and they have trouble sleeping. But if you're really bound to a routine, so to speak, and then how do you deal with that as a parent?

Dawn: 2:35

Yeah, that's why I wrote a 344 page book, because it's amazing the amount of information I was able to get from the people I interviewed, and that included people who are certified in handling autism travel certified autism travel professionals there is a designation for them and parents and the mental health professionals that I spoke to and the different organizations I interviewed.

Dawn: 3:04

There was just so many tips for each type of travel, whether it was getting started and starting small or deciding where you were going to go to airlines, cruises, buses, trains, camping, different sports activities, restaurants you name it. I covered it in its own chapter and there is a lot of preparation that's involved. Far more preparation is needed for a neurodivergent child than probably a neurotypical one, even though any child, when taken out of their comfort zone, is going to feel anxious and inflexible, which is why I wrote the title the way I did, and I will say that what was surprising is how many of these tips for special needs children will help any child and if the child needs less of a degree of help, every child can benefit from this book.

Peter Lap: 4:05

Because I mean and this sounds obvious to some people but maybe not so much to others Preparation is everything when you travel at the best of times, right? Yes, especially when you're traveling with kids. I know life for me as someone with no kids, other than me grabbing my passport, my wallet I can show my bank card is in my pocket somewhere I'm pretty much good to go. It's the joy of not having the freedom, of not having children, so to speak. But if you then add, all of a sudden you have to prepare for something, so how do you, when you say start younger, how do you prepare kids for the journey? I suppose you tell them in advance, of course, what these are about.

Dawn: 4:52

There are so many different ways to do this. You start out with talking about it, and it isn't just about talking about it with children on the spectrum. You show them social stories, and social stories are a specific way to write a story and with a certain outcome that the child can learn from this. It's a whole book. Carol Gray wrote a whole book about how to prepare a social story, and so that's really important to read up on too, and I do include her information in the book. But visual schedules. So instead of saying, oh, at three o'clock we'll do this and at four o'clock we'll do that, you might have it in picture form so the child can readily understand what's going to happen. So you're going to do that for every day of the trip and every activity, but you're going to start even before that. Videos are very helpful. There are videos out about the hotel you're going to go to, the attractions you're going to go to. You're going to do your advanced research to make sure of what hotels and attractions in the area you're going to perhaps are certified for autism or just autism friendly, and I created designation or create a differentiation in the book and explain what that means. But just because a property, say, is autism friendly, doesn't mean you should take that at face value. You should really call and find out what that means and how they earn that designation, if they have one, because it can mean so many different things and it really depends on your child and what your child needs. So starting small can be something as easy as they are going to go on a trip with a hotel. Maybe you go to a friend's house first or a family member's house first so the child can try to sleep in a new environment that is not their home and you can see right away where the problems are going to be. Some of the people I interviewed suggested bringing items from home, like a familiar lamp or the soaps they use at home and the toiletries they use at home, and set the room up as much as you can so it looks like home when they wake up in the middle of the night For camping, you may camp in the backyard to start eating foreign foods.

Dawn: 7:14

If you're going internationally, perhaps you go to an Italian or a German or a French restaurant in your neighborhood to try that food first. I had one parent I spoke to who had they were going to go to Italy. So they had Italy month way in advance, where they would introduce some language, maybe a few words. They would watch videos about the country, they would make the food of the country. So the child has a frame of reference and in that way something is predictable. There are also books you can read about. A child's favorite cartoon character is going on a trip and I list those characters or those books so there's something familiar. So the child feels comfortable and learns through reading or being read to what the trip may entail. So those are just a few ideas of how you can start small.

Peter Lap: 8:06

That sounds excellent because you don't have to. I mean, this is so easy to forget when you're not neuro divergent yourself, when you're neurotypical yourself, that you don't have to change everything just because you're going on holiday. So, instead of having a different kind of toothpaste, different kind of toothbrush, different you in, like you said, different smelling blankets and all that sort of stuff, you can take a lot of the familiar stuff.

Dawn: 8:42

Yeah, many people, many people actually do bring their own sheets and towels and blankets because it's and again, that might be one of the reason people take car or bus trips instead of airline flights. Or they may fly and ship toys. And, you know, blanket linens that's the word I wanted ahead of time. You know, ups can be your friend, but you want to really maintain some equilibrium for the child and so it's familiar for them.

Peter Lap: 9:14

No, no, that sounds. That sounds very sensible indeed. So what do parents tend to worry about? You know, when I did an interview a while ago, like I mentioned before, we started about having the diagnosis that your child is neurodivergent and that it's not that big a deal, that it's just information, as the lady was saying. So what do parents tend to worry about? They don't need to worry about so much. What is easier than quite often expected.

Dawn: 9:50

Some parents are surprised by how well their child does adapt to traveling, but it's still something they should prepare for in advance. And once your child has the frame of reference that they've described maybe by camping in the backyard or staying at a friend's house or relative's house future trips can become easier because and that's why it's so important to start small because then they have a frame of reference to say oh, remember back when you went to Aunt Katie's house and what that was like, this is going to be like that time. So there's a little bit more predictability for the child, but it still can be jarring. I would say that the things that the parents do worry about sort of everyone I spoke to had this concern is what are people going to say or think about me or my child if there's a meltdown? And there's a whole section in the book about how people are dealing with that, and a lot of times they are just focusing in on their child, because if there's a meltdown, the only thing you should be concentrating on is how to get your child through it and not worrying about what anybody else thinks, because that's their problem, not yours. So that was one thing and a lot of people have coped with that really well and the whole idea of the book is so. You never get to that point.

Dawn: 11:09

But also as long as you have the preparation done, everybody travels with a go-to bag and I describe in each chapter practically because I'm figuring people are going to jump around this book. If they're not going on a cruise, they're not going to read that section, but they may be going on a bus. So I include this go-to bag information in every chapter of what they should bring, and a lot of times it involves electronics. They're like an iPad or whatever is going to show the child their favorite television shows and movies that have been pre-recorded and loaded on Fidget toys, anything that helps with their sensory issues, just things that are comfortable, as well as always having their foods that they need so they don't get hungry. And, of course, a lot of the special needs children have very particular diets, so you always want to make sure to have what they need and that's described also how you get around. Like one parent said, not every restaurant we go to is going to have grilled cheese sandwiches, but they may have a buffet and on that buffet, maybe bread on one section and cheese on another and you can take them to the chef and say can you make a grilled cheese sandwich? So little ideas like that help people prepare.

Dawn: 12:26

But also, that's not what to worry about. I think what they need to think everything through from. You have to be really organized about this and you have to go first. We're going to go to the airport. How are we going to handle that? How are we going to handle check-in? Who's going to check in while the other person waits with the child? Are we going to keep the stroller with us? Can we keep the stroller with us? When we get on the plane, we have to remember to talk to the flight attendant and explain the situation. Maybe we're going to explain it to the people sitting around us. And every single aspect of that trip has to be thought about in advance and come up with strategies, because by doing that advanced work you're going to have a lot less problems during the trip.

Peter Lap: 13:10

Yeah, no, that sounds excellent. And you mentioned maybe informing the people sitting directly next to you on the bus or the plane or wherever, or just in your vicinity. I always think that's a good idea, no matter what.

Peter Lap: 13:31

If you have any sort of issues just because I think, deep down, people are all reasonable. Other passengers are all completely reasonable. I know there's this trope about oh my God, they always put me next to the screaming baby on the plane, that sort of thing, but I find most people are actually completely fine with that, as long as the parent of the screaming baby says listen, I've got my baby here, she's probably going to be fine. However, do you mind there's some sort of communication? So what can other travelers actually do? Because, imagine, I'm sitting on the plane and someone with a neurodivergent kid comes on the plane. What can I do to make their time a little bit easier, other than just saying, listen, it's no big deal, don't?

Dawn: 14:18

worry about it. I heard of one parent and I'm trying to decide who it was, because it was in one of these interviews, it wasn't actually in the book who would give little gift bags to the people sitting on the row. That would be a little explanation of the child's issue and maybe there would be gum or chocolates and just a gift to help them get through, because then people are going to be a little bit more understanding because, hey, they got a chocolate bar. So I thought that was a really good idea. But again, the purpose of the book is so the child never gets to that point, of course.

Peter Lap: 14:55

So what can I do to help the parents who are on the flight with the neurodivergent kids? Because someone sits next to me with a neurodivergent child and we have a conversation, but is there anything specifically that I can do, or should I just stay quiet, shut up and just look at my screen directly at the end?

Dawn: 15:16

Wait, are you speaking as the person who's? Sitting next to them or the parent. Yes, no, yes, sorry, as the person who's sitting next to them that's someone else's book. That's not the problem. You deal with it. I'm worrying about the parent and the child. I can't worry about the person sitting next to them. No, no, no, no.

Peter Lap: 15:36

I'm not looking to help myself. I'm asking if there's anything I can do to help the parents with the child.

Dawn: 15:45

I think the whole point is to not get to the point, and that is to keep them busy, to keep them occupied, whether it's a coloring book or a sensory toy, or making sure you have food to give them throughout. One good tip that I heard was to make sure that the child has something to press, because that will stop them from pressing the flight attendant button during the flight. Some people suggest having little gifts to give them throughout the trip, as like little surprise prizes for each amount of time that they are being occupied and being good.

Dawn: 16:24

Okay so we're not bothering the people next to them.

Peter Lap: 16:28

Yeah, no, that makes complete sense. Okay, so now we've done the traveling bit, so to speak. We've gone on the plane or on the train or wherever, and we've reached the other destination. We've reached wherever we're going. How can you best accommodate, say? Say, you go to New York for a day. There's a lot of sightseeing that has to be done right when you're. How do you prepare a neurodivergent child for an activity filled day in a strange city when they're going back to a strange hotel at the end of it?

Dawn: 17:04

Okay, really good question. The first thing is, when you travel with that child, it has to be a child-centric trip. It can't be. I'm going on my trip and we're bringing the kid along and they're gonna have to deal with it. So you know, your child and most children on the spectrum have prescribed interests that they might obsess about 16 hours a day. I mean, everybody knows that they might perseverate on a specific topic and they love it. So why not travel to where there's a museum or an activity that specializes in that interest? And I list in a very long chapter at the end all of the special interests I could come up with and museums and activities around the country and in some cases in other countries that are dedicated to that interest. So if you have a child who loves trolley cars, I've listed a bunch of museums around the country that deal with trolley cars and I think that by spending that time with the child and indulging the child in what they enjoy, that's gonna go a long way to making the rest of the trip work for you. In addition, I do list a number of venues around the country that have been trained in how to help this community, children in this community, so the people who work there have been specifically trained to be sensitive to what children on the spectrum need, and you may think to visit those attractions, and a lot of times there are theme parks, there are aquariums, there's zoos anything to do with nature seems to help, but you're gonna know your child and you're gonna have to build the trip around them.

Dawn: 18:44

For hotels and vacation rentals some people prefer to stay in a vacation rental instead of a hotel, since you're the only family there and you have the room you need for the child to have a special area to themselves to decompress. I list a number of properties that have also been known, named as either Autism Friendly or Certified Autism Centers. So you might want to work with those places. But also, if you can't find one, you try to make the hotel work as well as you can, whether it's you ask for a kitchenette, because that will save you from going to a restaurant all the time. It just makes life easier.

Dawn: 19:25

To making sure well, there's a whole list of things you have to make sure of when you look at a hotel in terms of security, to make sure maybe there are cameras in case your child gets away from you. You're going to one mental health professional says stay away from hotels with casinos because you're gonna have to walk around that casino to get to your room and you wanna make walking around the hotel as short as possible. You don't wanna make you drag it out. You may wanna hotel with a pool because of the sensory help that a pool can provide. So there's a lot of checklists in the book like that. There's even a checklist of how to evaluate not only a vacation rental but a camping site.

Peter Lap: 20:16

Thanks. So yeah, because I suppose, when you're talking about just because you mentioned casinos, I suppose the sensory overload of a casino would be a terrible place for many people, but the sensory overload is quite intense in any sort of casino environment.

Dawn: 20:38

Yeah, and you would think that that would be true in a theme park too, but some of the kids adore theme parks, although one professional advise to bring sunglasses with you even if you're going at night because of the flashing lights, which I thought was a really great tip. But again, crowds in restaurants, in any sort of gathering place, you're gonna find crowds, and crowds can really set the child off. And what you find in a lot of these certified autism centers and other places that have been designated as autism friendly, they have quiet areas where the child can decompress and it's got lower lighting or it's less people, and there are maps that they hand you that will show you where those areas are. And so that's why it's so important to go to the place that caters to autism or any other sort of special needs, because the book is also set up for ADHD and bipolar and other issues.

Peter Lap: 21:39

Yeah, cause that's a good point. With something you mentioned earlier, there is a difference between autism friendly there's in genuinely autism friendly and those who will for want of a better word tolerate people with and it's a horrible word, but you know what I mean. People say, yeah, we'll tolerate different people. That doesn't necessarily mean they're equipped they're genuinely equipped to deal with. They'll just ignore your kid when they're having the time to.

Dawn: 22:17

It's very true and that's why I urge people and I've read it a couple of times in the book before you go, ask what they mean when they say they're autism friendly. And even if they have special programs just for children on the spectrum, they may only be given one Saturday a month and that might not be the Saturday you're in town. So that's why it's really important to double check all of the information and also address the change phone numbers change, hours change. Take the information and double check it.

Peter Lap: 22:46

Yeah, no, that makes complete. It all just comes down to there's a whole heap of preparation that in an ideal world you want to be doing beforehand, and I suppose that is one of the hurdles that a lot of parents with neurodivergent kids come across. Is that the hurdle of a significant amount of preparation that you have to do the first time you travel in the second time but I'm supposed it does get easier with time, right?

Dawn: 23:21

I think that once you've been through the drill and you've already got your checklist of what you have to do, then it's going to be a lot easier the second and third time, because you're going to be used to calling and checking and there are some families that say, okay, this cruise line works for me, I go on it every year, this theme park works for me, this is where I go every year, and I hear a lot of that.

Dawn: 23:43

I also think that one of the things you have to be careful of and again, once you do it, once you'll know to do it in the future is safety precautions, Like whether you sew a GPS tracker into your children's clothing or you put their name on a marker on their arm covered with liquid bandage so it doesn't wash off or get taken away by sweat or whatever. Taking a picture of a child that morning. Every morning you go out so you have a fresh picture of them in their clothing of the day. It's very helpful if a child gets away. You have to prepare for things like that, just like you're not going to go to a campground near water if your child can't swim.

Peter Lap: 24:27

Yeah, no, that's actually an excellent point. If you're talking about camping and all that sort of stuff, I suppose finding out what facilities are there around it, what the setting is and all that sort of stuff is going to be absolutely key and that sounds sensible. Even it sounds sensible for every parent, right, if your kid can't swim. But it doesn't matter whether they're neurotypical or they're virgin, you don't really want to be directly next to the river.

Dawn: 24:53

Of course of course.

Dawn: 24:54

And also little things. Like you're going to the beach and your child's never been to the beach before, maybe you go out to a craft store and buy some sand and lay it on the floor or underneath some tarp underneath them. That's how you throw sand all over your floor, but you get some tarp and then you put the sand on and you have the child walk on the sand. So they get used to that feeling. Because these are things you never think about Normally. If you or I went to the beach for the first time, we're probably not thinking about that. If you live in Florida and you're going to Alaska where it's cold assuming you're not going at the height of summer maybe you want to practice wearing different layers of clothing at the same time, because that's not something you usually do at home. So these are the sort of things that are about thinking in advance, things that you might not normally think of.

Peter Lap: 25:46

Well, that sounds not excellent, because I remember because the sensation of sand is, of course it's a really weird one and I remember I was trying. The postnatal program that I run is the website and all that sort of stuff is is set up to also be usable by people with hearing difficulties, so everything is captioned and everything is described and all that sort of stuff. One of my members got in touch saying she has sight difficulties so she can't see, she can't watch the videos, and she asked me listen, can you do anything with that? Because I asked her some feedback, she said, well, could you do something with that? And I tried and as a seeing person, it is remarkably difficult to describe something very simple to someone who's never seen anything like that before, especially when it comes to exercise.

Peter Lap: 26:55

You know when you're talking about things like a squat, a squat to you or I makes complete sense if I just show you the movement. And then there were one or two tips afterwards and I found it almost impossible to describe things in a way that are meaningful to her without me actually physically moving limbs and all that sort of stuff, because I don't have the experience and that's kind of like what you're saying because it does tie in In that if you've never experienced sound before and you are very driven by sensory triggers and all that sort of stuff, like a lot of neurodivergent people are, I suppose it's something so easily missed by someone who is not neurodivergent. And when you're talking about cold, when you're talking about sound, when you're talking about grass, when you're talking about certain smells, yeah, so camping too.

Peter Lap: 28:09

Camping is a weird.

Dawn: 28:11

Yeah, I have a whole paragraph that was written by this woman who describes camping. I think it was Angela Zizak who describes camping and it really is thinking never even thought of like what is the smell of the campfire going to smell like to the child? How about the family that's like 10 feet away yelling and screaming, or people partying, or the trucks passing by nearby? If you're not way out Things that you wouldn't have thought of, I mean, you might think, oh, the child's going to need to be near a toilet, but even the smell of that.

Peter Lap: 28:51

Yeah, the campsite toilet isn't the same.

Dawn: 28:54

Yeah, so this is why it's probably something you want to test at home first. Or in a local campground for one night before you go on a long trip. And some people say you know, I'm skipping the tent, I'm getting an RV, I'm going to rent an RV because then we've got a lot of the comforts of home and if we're driving to our destination and it becomes a little much, we can stop at a hotel and so we can break it up.

Peter Lap: 29:22

Yeah, no, you see, that's again. There's so much there that I personally wouldn't even have thought of and I'm thinking, and that is not because I'm not scared, it's just because I don't have the lived experience of someone who's nor a divergent to never have never gone through it. Yeah, there's only. There is, of course, only so much preparation you can do.

Dawn: 29:50

True. Although my editors would disagree, because every two seconds I'm like, let me add this, let me add this. And she's like we really have to go into production. But no, we need to add this. So that's why I have a blog that's backing up the book.

Peter Lap: 30:04

All right.

Dawn: 30:05

Things keep changing.

Peter Lap: 30:07

Things keep popping up, but yeah, because it's a completely different world out there year to year, but there are lots of new experiences and things that were relevant five years ago, so even there are a lot more tools, of course, available now to people as well.

Dawn: 30:26

And then what happened was, with COVID, a lot of people who had invested a lot of time and energy in getting certified couldn't keep up their certification because they didn't have travelers the last couple of years. So I found that there were people who were certified in 2021, 2021, who had all that training, who then did not get re-certified this year, and so I listed them as 2021 certified SCAC.

Peter Lap: 30:54

Certified.

Dawn: 30:54

Mathematics Center because I felt they put in the time and they had the training, even if they haven't paid to keep up the certification. I think it's valuable to know. But yeah, there are different properties joining different. There are a number of certification companies right now and things keep changing. I just wrote a story about an initiative called Azores All in Blue, about a big initiative the Azores are getting involved in to become autism friendly. So again, I'm trying to keep my blog up to date because that will update the book. It's the only way I could. I'm so. I'm so obsessive. It's like the only way I can release this book is if there was a way to update it constantly.

Peter Lap: 31:43

Well, that makes sense, because otherwise, yeah, you can't keep bringing out new editions of the book.

Dawn: 31:48

No.

Peter Lap: 31:50

Publishers will lose their mind.

Dawn: 31:52

Yeah, they already have lost them.

Peter Lap: 31:56

So we're doing a lot of prep. And we're doing lots of prep, so would you say, one of the first things you can do. Of course, most parents with kids anyways, especially neurodivergent kids, they're all members of support forums and local support groups and all that sort of stuff. So would you say, you know, prepare, check this before you go, practice as much as you can before you go.

Dawn: 32:28

Yeah, I'd say buy the book.

Dawn: 32:31

I'm not saying that as a mercenary way, but I think there's so much information and it depends on where you're going and how you're going to get there, and I do hope to speak at a lot of those support groups if I can, if they invite me to speak, that would be wonderful. But I think that there's so many people that can be helped by this book that I really look forward to seeing the response. But yeah, they have to. They should really go and think ahead and also speak to friends who have also been through it. There are apps. I think there's an app called Autism Village I think that's the name where you can check on what other families are doing and their responses at different restaurants and hotels. I actually should check that, but I think it's Autism Village Right.

Peter Lap: 33:29

Cool, I'll have a look for that as well and I'll link all that sort of stuff Anyways. So we have our child center sort of thing. So what did right did this just popped into my head On the way home. Are you going to need an acclimatizing period again After the holiday? Most holidays are super exciting, right? Do you go to a theme park, like you said? Say, you go to Disney World for two days or something like that? I mean, that is spectacular. Do you then need to do anything at the back end when you're home, or would you recommend doing something at the back?

Dawn: 34:09

end. It's a really great question. I know that Tony Atwood, who's pretty well-known mental health professional dealing with Asperger's and Autism, says be sure to congratulate the child when they get home on what a great job they did. One parent said be sure to tell the child you're going home, because they may get there and not realize that this is what's going to happen, and then they have a complete meltdown because they're there. So you do have to set it up and prepare them that they are going home. I think there is a drop off. I know that I've seen that in my own situation, that after an exciting time there is some downtime, and this isn't in the book, but it would be a good adjunct. Maybe prepare some special events when you get home. Maybe visit a local park or a local zoo or aquarium or museum so that you can taper off rather than it just being really abrupt.

Peter Lap: 35:10

Yeah, because we all know that coming home after all of that, okay, you sleep for one day, but after that, especially when you're younger, life sucks again for this a while, right, if you've just been surrounded by Disney and Mickey and Minnie and Pluto and all those guys and I'm told there's more to this. It's not for me, but it's. Then when you come home, it all slows down massively, so would you say, and you don't want to go back to you, don't? In an ideal world, of course, most people already don't want to do this, but I know a lot of families do. You don't want to come home on a Sunday and then back to school on a Monday.

Dawn: 35:47

I think that's a really good point. I think you've given me an idea for my next article, which is going to be asking various people how do you handle it when you get home? Because and I'll put it in the blog, because I think it's a really good point I do have a couple of pointers, but I don't have a whole article about it or a whole chapter about that.

Peter Lap: 36:06

Awesome, because now we've covered the whole trip right, we've gone.

Dawn: 36:11

I, yeah, I mean there is yeah, pretty much. I mean I have information on sports. There are different sports trips that people don't think might be therapeutic, like skiing and golf and scuba. I talked about that. The adaptive skiing and adaptive scuba diving is getting very big and I have a lot of different places you can go for that the restaurant dining how to handle it? Yeah, I guess. Then just you follow the blog.

Peter Lap: 36:44

Follow the blog. I don't know what to say. No, no, no, I mean, that's, that's what I'm thinking. That's what I'm thinking. Don't want to be given all the secrets away here. I highly recommend, I mean, like I said, like you mentioned, 344 pages. That's a lot of information in the book. Yeah, I take it it's available on Amazon and all that sort of fun stuff.

Dawn: 37:08

Yeah, it's available on the publisher's website. It's available on Amazon, Barnes, Noble, Bookfamilion, the indie book areas, anywhere, I think. Photos and Waterstones I'm trying to remember Waterstones.

Peter Lap: 37:25

Yeah, I think they still exist. I hope so.

Dawn: 37:28

Yeah, yeah, I think. If you look online, it's all over the world on a number of websites and it's available for pre-order now. At least the hardcover is, and the audio book will be the digital book, the e-book. I don't think that will be available for pre-order. That'll be available on the 15th of August when the book comes out. But, quite honestly, the e-book is not priced that much less than the hardcover.

Peter Lap: 37:58

So you might as well get the hardcover, Always get the hardcover I always say because, let's be honest, we've all got a million e-books on our Kindle that we're halfway through. The hardcover is, of course. You can make notes in a hardcover.

Dawn: 38:13

Yeah.

Peter Lap: 38:14

I know someone's going to email me saying you can actually make notes on the e-book as well, but I know that's going to happen because I'm sure it's possible these days.

Dawn: 38:21

Yeah, you can. Yeah, you see, I've got a 3G, kindle and I know nothing.

Peter Lap: 38:26

I have one of those that you have to buy a separate lamp for on the outside of the cover. It's available everywhere. That's good news, because it means we don't have to give Jeff Bezos our money he's got enough and we can go to book and book shops and it's traveling different vacation strategies for parents of the anxious, the inflexible and the neurodiverse.

Dawn: 38:57

That's the name of the book. My name is Dawn Markley and the follow-up blog is TravelingDifferentcom. Right.

Peter Lap: 39:07

And of course I will link to absolutely everything in the podcast description. Anyways, Sure, so people will know where to when. You can't miss finding it.

Dawn: 39:16

I mean I haven't screwed that up yet Cool.

Peter Lap: 39:20

So we've covered a lot. We've covered the start and we've got the prep. We've covered the trip. Was there anything else you wanted to touch on? Anything else that you think I should repeat? You missed it.

Dawn: 39:29

I would just say that as long as you base the trip around the child, you'll probably be okay. Think about it in terms of what they're going through and that will guide you. And also, if you find errors in the book or you haven't had a different experience, or you've found a location that I didn't cover in the book that you feel is noteworthy, or it's just the book has helped you in any way, I'd really appreciate a note. An email will make my day to know that I was able to help you in some way. It would be very special and meaningful for me.

Peter Lap: 40:02

Well, there you go, guys and girls. On that happy note, I will press stop record here and of course I'll press stop record there. So just a reminder, right? The book is called Travelling Different Vacation Strategies for Parents of the Anxious, the Inflictable and the Neurodiverse. It is coming out in paperback, I want to say on the second of April yeah, April 2nd in Time for Autism Acceptance Month. I absolutely love it. I think she's wonderful. This book is just so ridiculously complete. It includes absolutely anything you could possibly think of, and I know she keeps updating it and all that sort of thing as well. So she absolutely crushed this book it is. I highly, highly recommend this one and, like I said, I'm sure you can pre-order it on Amazon now. And I've spoken before about what other authors told me about the importance of pre-ordering books and how much you're doing them a favor instead of waiting until the book comes out, actually pre-ordering it. It apparently makes a huge difference to their projected sales and what their publishers think and all that sort of stuff.

Peter Lap: 41:20

Anyways, that's me done for this week. If you follow me on threads, then you will realize that my house is a bit of a mess at the moment. I'm hoping to put a normal Q&A out again next week. So, Peter at HealthyPostnatalBodycom, if you have any questions or comments or anything like that, that I can use next week. I've got a couple lined up, but still, if you have any questions or comments, Peter at HealthyPostnatalBodycom. Anyways, you have a wonderful week, Take care of yourself. Bye now. Thanks.

Peter Lap: 42:19

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