Raising and supporting introverted children with Jenny Toh

 
This week I'm talking to Jenny Toh, she's a life-coach and mother of 3 introverted children. In a lovely, free-flowing conversation we talk about many things including;

The difference between being shy and introverted.
How to communicate with your introverted child in a way that is productive for both sides.
How to help your introverted child flourish in a, seemingly, extroverted world and many other things.

You can find Jenny at https://www.riverlifecoaching.com/
Connect with her on LinkedIn
On the old Facebook
and on the cool Instagram

In the news this week it's HPNB news! We are now solidly on our way to becoming the first post-partum program, as far as I know, that is accessible to people with hearing difficulties. After someone pointed out that there isn't a post-partum program out there that is easily accessible to people with hearing difficulties I decided to get someone to sort that out for us. The first 4 months of the program should now be fully accessible, with all videos having accurate transcriptions, and the rest is being worked on as we speak.

We will also make sure that all new podcasts will have audio transcribed and all that sort of good stuff.
I am looking for people to test to userfriendlyness of our program to people with hearing issues so if you would like to get involved and get FREE lifetime access, just send a little email to peter@healthypostnatalbody.com

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Playing us out this week; "Love like this" by Centerpiece

Transcript

Hey, welcome to the Healthy Post Natal Body Podcast with your post-natal expert Pete Lap. That would be me! This is the podcast for the 10 October. I hope you're well, I hope you've paid attention last few weeks because, you know if I mention the date before the music, that means there's another great guest coming up. This week I'm talking to Jenny Toh. She's a life coach, a mother of three introverted children. And that's what we're talking about. We have a lovely, free flowing conversation. We talk about many things; the difference between being shy and introverted. I thought it was the same. How to communicate with your introverted child in a way that's productive for both sides. How to help your introverted child flourish in a seemingly extroverted world. Many other things. I mean, we're breezing through a very solid half hour or so or 45 minutes, however long it took. Yeah, about 45 minutes. And she's lovely to talk to, lovely to listen to and has loads of knowledge and loads of wisdom. Without further ado, we'll get cracking. There isn an in the news this week, so stick around. Don't just immediately bail after the great interview. There's an exciting HPNB news. Here we go.

Peter

So you have a great deal of experience, managing and guiding introverted children. Having three yourself. What would you say the difference is between being a bit shy and actually being introverted? 

Jenny; Well, great question, Peter. When I was a child, I was very shy. And of course, back then I had no idea what does it mean to be an introvert or an extrovert? I was just very shy. So now, as an adult, I've read up quite a lot about introversion and what it means to be an extrovert. So it's basically where you draw your energy from. So for introverts, I tend to draw my energy from within. So after talking to you, Peter, or other, if I'm giving a webinar or training, I need some downtime.

 I need to be by myself just to recharge and re energize. So I love nothing but having a good cup of coffee, although it's late at night at my end here in Singapore. So not coffee tonight, but usually after a day of doing webinars and trading, I will love to have a nice hot cup of coffee and just sit and not talk to anyone. Whereas for extroverts. It's also a misconception to think that they need to be with people all the time. That's not true. It's just that if they are engaging in a good conversation, they don't want it to end. So it's meaningful conversation with people. They just want to keep going at it. And it seems like they don't watch the clock. So I have good friends who are extroverts. If we go to a gathering together, I'm like, okay, 3 hours is probably my maximum time and after that I need to go home. But then I feel bad, but I didn't quite understand what was going on. I'm like, is there something wrong with me? Why do they want to keep talking and then whereas I keep getting feeling quite drained. Although I love these people, but I feel drained. Like if it's after 3 hours, I can't go on anymore. Now I know better. It's not that I don't like them. I love them, it's just that comes to a point of time. I need to have my own time. Shyness actually means that you are awkward around people and that's something deeper. So you can be an introvert and not be shy. I know a lot of introverts who are actually not shy. So it's a double whammy for me when I was growing up because I'm shy. I'm an introvert. The shyness is something you can outgrow and overcome as you learn how to adapt to social circumstances. Introversion, I believe, will always be with me because that's just simply where I draw my energy from. 

Peter; So you see, I think that's a fascinating description because that's me as well. To be honest, we in. I can really identify with all this stuff. I do the same thing my wife says tolerate… I can tolerate X amount of people in a day. Like I'm a personal trainer. I do five sessions a day max. Because when I've seen five people, I'm done. And that doesn't mean that I don't like seeing people. It's just after 5 hours of spending time, spending 5 hours with people, doing all the social interactions that is required and all that sort of stuff. I just want to be at home alone with my dogs. It is exactly that. So yeah, I can definitely definitely identify with that. So how do you recognize the difference? Especially when it comes to children, because a lot of listeners will be listening to this. And they think my child is a bit shy or my child is an introvert. And how do you recognize the difference between the two?

Jenny;  I think as children, there are children who are.. you've seen those kids? They just come up to you and they say; Hey, Peter, you know what's going on? Okay, that's not in the shy category. Whereas my kids, they tend to be more reserved, so they will take a while before they warm up to you. Let's just say we're meeting and then you see my kids. This is when they're younger. If you see my kids, they won't come up to you and make a conversation. But if you get down to their level and ask them what they're doing, then they will start engaging in a conversation. So they're very good once they know you. And that's an introverted trait. We love this deeper meaning, more meaningful one to one conversation. Shyness, I think, is probably in a lot of children because they will not open up to you straight away simply because their parents tought them, right; Don't talk to strangers. So they are quite careful as well. And then it is safer, just not to talk to strangers. So to me, there is no secret formula as to how to discover whether your child is just shy or whether your child is introverted. And it's fine. 

The main thing is to recognize that they take a longer time to connect with people. They may think a lot more before they say something. And at times when you say something to them and it hurts them, they actually internalize it and they think a lot. So I have three children. So my middle girl, I know that if I did say something that she thinks it's hurtful, she won't tell it to me straight away. But I can see her face has changed and she goes with it inside, and it takes a while to draw it out from her. As parents, I would say, recognize your child. Know when your child is really taking it harder than what those words are meant and just let them know it's okay. And I guess teach them the way to express emotions. That's what I'm teaching my children, although now they're much older. It's like if they say; I am sad, explore what is the meaning of sad because sad to you, Peter, is probably something different from when I say sad. Find ways for your child to articulate the emotions describing it. So I think that's a good start. 

Peter; Yeah. No, that sounds awesome. And you're, of course, quite right. I often speak about a lot. What goes on in my head is just middle aged white guy thinking. And by that I mean, my brain works one way and your brain works a different way. So indeed, for what is sad for you is not necessarily the same sad for me. A word that has one meaning for me has a completely meaning, different meaning for you. And it's interesting that you approach that with your children as well, because quite often the temptation now, I thin,k we might have is to see children as little versions of ourselves 

Jenny; I think all parents like to think that. And coincidentally, iyou say that, I know I mean, talking about I've got three kids, but I seem to talk a lot about the middle one today because coincidentally, a lot of people say my middle girl looks exactly like me. It's like my mini me, right. Physically, outwardly, she looks exactly like me. To be honest, personality wise we are really very different. And that's why she and I we tend to have more disagreements because she's really different. And I think her strength is that she really feels other people. So that means her empathy is very high and it's very strong. So that's something we share. That similar trait. I'm more organized. I need to plan. I'm a perfectionist. And I can say I'm a recovering perfectionist because I recognize it. Whereas for her at the other end. She's on Eleven, by the way, at the other end, she has this. Okay, this idea of organized chaos. You should see her room, but she tells me that she knows where things are, and that doesn't sit well with me because I need things to be orderly and nicely placed. And then for her, her room looks like it's a disaster in my eyes. So for me, a lesson to be learned here is to appreciate her for who she is. That's just her trait. That's no right or wrong. But I think, like what you said a lot of times parents want we project our expectations onto our children either consciously or subconsciously. Sometimes it's subconsciously, but your child picks it up. For example, if my face changes and my demeanour changes, she knows that Mommy is not too happy, so she can pick that up. And I have to be very mindful of the messages I'm sending to her.

Peter; Sure, because that's a fascinating one for me. It's the same as with a lot of the behaviours that we expect our children to have, are behaviours that we had us as children or behaviours we don't want them to repeat. Behaviours that we had a children that we don't want them to repeat. So when you're dealing with introverted children, how do you then say, say, get them to play with other children without pushing them into something? Like birthday parties and all I said, I don't know about you, but when I was younger, I always hated birthday parties. I still don't like them now. But kids kind of sometimes need to go to a friend's birthday party. So how do you deal with that set up? 

Jenny; Well, the easy way out is when you know your children's friends. I'm sure your children would have one or two, maybe not like at the far end of extrovert being an extrovert, but they would have one or two friends who are more outgoing. So I'm thinking from my own experience I would have one or two friends that are more outgoing. And if you guys are in the same circle and you go to a party together, that's easy for your son or daughter to get to know other people and to play depending on their age because they are with the friends who are more outgoing. So for my children, I know that their friends are definitely more extroverted. So when they go for now, it's COVID is it hard to go for out things by the time when they could go for out days, they would go with their friends and in a way that the company of their friends provide them that confidence as well. So if you're talking about just going to a birthday party without knowing other people there, I would say, you need to do the part, depending on the age of the child, you need to do a part, maybe talk to the whole family and say that my girl may like a smaller group or may like this activity. Just have a chat with the other parent in advance. Not not to put the other parent on guard or scare them on. They just find out what type of activities are happening. If there's arts and craft and you know, your daughter loves that so great, then you can prep her. Because for introverts, we need to prepare a lot. I don't know whether you find that for yourself before doing anything. We really think a lot. And I know my kids really think a lot before they do anything, and at times that holds us back as compared to an extrovert who just think aloud, right? They would just go into it. It's like, yes, man, I can do this.Whereas for introverts, they think, yes, I can do this. But what if this happens? And we think we have long, meaningful conversations in our own minds before anybody knows what's going on. So I think if your child is going to a party or gathering without really knowing a lot of people there, it's good to check in with the host. I'm not saying that you control the situation, but just to get an idea, like, what was the plan? What's going on? Also know that how long will this party end, the time period? So you can have a conversation with a child to give that preparation. And I think that helps. 

Peter; Yeah. It's just setting it all up so that everybody knows exactly what they the dealer, so to speak. 

Jenny; Yes. And I know what you mean, like pushing your child to go and socialize. And it's a skill, right? I mean, we all learned that as we are growing up, some of us learn it the hard way. I know that I did in certain social settings. I wish someone would tell me the right things to say and do and all that. So you as the adult, you can share that. You can say that; Oh, find someone in the room who seems to be by herself or by himself or just with one or two people and then just go up to them and just say “Hello. My name is Peter”. I give them a speech or something, but this is for the younger kids and just tell them to experiment with this. And maybe you can even practice at hope for those who are really shy and introverted. So I think the main thing is preparation and also to encourage them to see their true worth. Because a lot of times we think that there's something wrong with us because we're quiet or shy. They may feel inferior to an extrovert. That's not the intention. The world needs introverts and extroverts otherwise it's a bit lopsided. So we need the Ying and the Yang is what people can see. 

Peter; So it's interesting because I thought about this. Every now and again I do a little bit of prep from my podcast. Most of my listeners will know that I usually just wing it and chance it, which is why it's a debatable quality. But I was thinking about this earlier because obviously for me, I'm 46, right. So my growing up was completely different from the way kids grow up now with video games and all that sort of stuff. People spend a lot more time kids, especially living their lives, making their friendships online. We can say that… because I'm guessing for an introvert, it's an excellent way to make friends, right. Playing video games as long as it's all managed, responsibly and all that sort of stuff and they're on the right sites and all that sort of thing. But how can parents wrap their heads around that? Because I think for a lot of parents, they view video games in the same way that my parents used to view television, as in, you don't watch too much television. It's not a healthy activity. It is not something you should be doing. You should be out playing with your friends. And I think video games are similar. Or the way parents view the video games are rather similar to how can parents, especially of introvert to children, who can have a blast online, mind the activities that they do online whilst at the same time still encouraging the healthier side of that? 

Jenny; That's a tough question, because nowadays not just teenagers. I think all of us now have moved into the virtual world, literally young and old. But yes, I have a teenage son as well. He's 16 this year, and I'm nodding my head as I say this. Yes, he connects very well with his friends on those online games. And the thing is, these are friends he knows from school so that he's not playing with strangers. So I don't know whether your situation is are the they're really meeting strangers online. I would caution parents to check in, not to watch over your son when he's playing the games, but to, like, check in. You spent so long on playing what's going on. It's a bit difficult. It's a fine line to walk, because if you are a parent of a teenager, you know, they really guard their privacy. That you cannot ask too many questions. And I learned that the hard way. But for my son, I know that he's playing with friends who ll be nose from school. So they're not strangers. And that's how they relax and they get together. Because now here in Singapore, there are still restrictions, meeting in large groups. So all the more reason that they are gaming on the phone and also chatting. I can hear him laughing and all that. So I would say balance. I mean, if you can encourage outdoor activities for your child and his or her friends. I know in certain countries it may be tough, like right now I can't really encourage outdoor activities, but when you can have a balance. And if you really don't know your children's, friends encourage them to bring a few over so you host them, open up your home, bring them over, get to know them, and then likewise, have your child go over to the friend's house as well and just make it more natural rather than you are intruding in their space. We can’t escape from this playing online, making friends online. We just need to understand it. And I think what is key, even in your days and in my days turn up till now is communication. Is that open, honest communication and not judging. I know that my son is quite sensitive as well, so I have to be careful with the words that I say. I don't agree with all his actions and decisions, but I am respectful, and it takes a lot for me to learn as well because we tend to have this thinking. I'm the parent, you're the child. What I say is right. You know, it's not a healthy approach, but that's naturally how we are because our parents parented us that way. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but that's how the parent does that way. Parents saying that they know more than us. So what they say is correct, and we pass it on his style as well. But I see him as a young adult now, and I respect his privacy. I don't agree with certain things that he wants to do, but I try and listen to his reasons. And again, that takes time.

So if you're stressed from a long day from work and if you want to engage in that conversation, that's not a good time. So know yourself as well as to when you truly open and honest. I like weekends because all of us are more relaxed and I check in with him to find out what's been going on, what's been happening and we keep it light. So I think through, this kind of short check ins and just not putting pressure on your child. I'm talking about teenagers now, not putting pressure on them to talk to you, accepting that there are days when the answer is just yes, ma'am, I'm fine. A lucky I got 4 words, and that's probably enough for the rest of the day for him. And then there are days like this afternoon. He just came over to my room and said, mom, what are you doing? And he plopped down on the bed and I seize that opportunity because, you see, he's come to me and that's a good time just to open up and relax. So we have to go with the flow. I know we are all concerned about what our kids are going through, especially during this time. Are they going through a lot of anxiety or mental stress related issues? We just have to trust that they will come to us. And how do we know that they will come to us? Because we've built that foundation from young. We've told them that no matter what happens, you can come to mom and dad to talk about anything. And that's what I lay down with all three kids, whether you're going to tell me something that you think is going to make me angry, it's better that you say to me rather than lie, and they know what the consequences are. And they know at the end of the day that I will still tell them that I love them. I've had a lot of difficult conversations with my teenage son, and no matter how difficult it is, I always end with saying, I know we don't agree, but Mommy loves you. Even if I'm really fuming mad, I make myself say that. So it's just after all that he knows that at the end of the day I love him. And that's how we build that relationship.

Peter;  That is, I suppose, completely different between introverted and extrovert kids, isn't it? Extrovert kids would be, first of all, a lot more vocal, maybe even if they did. But even in disagreement, when you're talking about teenagers and all that sort of stuff in the UK we had, When I say “we”, I want to say I'm Dutch, but I just moved to the UK like 20-21 years ago. There was a thing called Kevin and Perry, which was like a comedy sort of thing. Adults portrayed people that turned into teenagers like overnight. Extroverted teenagers that argue with their parents, that talk back to their parents and disagree with their parents, let’s put it that way, would, I suppose, be completely would require a completely different approach other than the loving them. Of course, that's a no brainer. But we would require a different approach. As in you can be a bit more direct with them. Maybe rather than waiting for them to come to you, you can more barge through the bedroom door and say, explain what is happening. Whereas with introverts, if you ask what's happening.. without being invited into the conversation, so to speak, you are likely to just get the “Yes, I'm fine. Leave me alone.”

Jenny;  That's so true. That's so true, because I learned that the hard way because I care so much about him. And this was 16 now. So this was like three years ago and he really guarded his Privacy and I did barge in. And I did say, okay, tell me what's going on. I know that you're upset about something…That actually drove him into his little cave deeper and deeper. So now I know years ahead now I know that like you said, I you need to let them have their own time. And because you built this strong, secure relationship with your child, let him or her come to you. 

Peter; Yeah, because that is one of the things, isn't it? Like you already said, we were raised one way, and therefore you can take that with you, right? That's how you’re going to. I always say the the next generation will be… Your job as a parent is to be a slightly better parent than your parents were, right. That is kind of how. And that doesn't mean that my parents did anything wrong necessary because they only have the tools that they were given themselves, right. And it was a different generation. And the generation before that was even more messed up. And the generation before that was just insane compared to our modern day standards. Again, at the time, they did the best they could. But everything is just small progressions, isn't it? Because when you're talking about laying the foundation as an early age. Do you have a few tips? I have a lot of listeners that have told us, right. So what tips do you have for somebody that says; Man , my toddlers are quite introverted. How do you even start laying that foundation with your children in the way that say, because my parents never laid any foundations. Do you know what I mean? 

Jenny; Yeah, we have to discover or like you said, there's nothing wrong with the way their parents. They were just more aware. I mean, my parents never had an idea; What does it mean to be an introvert or an extrovert? Yeah. So to answer your question, when I think about when my kids are toddlers is to really recognize that they are their own little person. I think at times like you said, it's like a little Jenny, and you forgot that they are their own little person and is to really study them like, oh, see what's their traits? What they like are they, do they like to sit by themselves and fiddle with their toys for hours on end? Or do they like to read? It’s really getting to know what your child likes or dislikes, and also to see what that triggers. I know in toddlers, there's quite a lot of triggers in terms of temper and all that. But you can see what really triggers them. So my youngest is a bit like me in terms of being very organized, and she likes to keep her space very clean. And she shares the room with the sister who is the opposite. So you can imagine the two of them, but they love each other so much. So it's just notice like, oh, okay. So my child is very organized, and you can nurture that skill. But at the same time, all our strengths when overused tends to be a disadvantage to us, because an overused strength can become an obsession. So it's also to guide them. So, yes, it's good that your child is organized. But if it's to a point that she gets really upset, if something is just one inch away from the place that she desires, then you know, so you can slowly guide that child to say that it's okay. And just to see what her triggers are as well. So recognize the strength, but also know what triggers the toddler to react in that way at all times. Again, this takes time. And I know for us who are working from home, it's really taking quite a lot out of us to create that boundaries to start working and to spend time with the toddler. And then after that, to go back to work. So there's a lot of creating boundaries at the home front as well. The main thing is to remember that they are their own little person and to really get to know them. 

Peter; No, that makes complete sense to me. I was just looking at your website, by the way, the River Life Coaching website for anybody listening of course. The link will be in the podcast description anyways. But if there's something that because you have several packages and all that sort of stuff which all have really cool, by the way, I love the theme. All really cool names. Is this something you touch on with potential clients and potential or members or whatever you want to call them? 

Jenny; Yes. You're talking about my programs, right? 

Peter; Yeah. The stream coaching and the signature program and all that. Do you feed this sort of family stuff into your coaching programs as well? 

Jenny; Well, it's again led by the clients. For prospective clients coming to me, I arrange a 30 minutes discovery call, so that's the call to get to know the other person, to see whether we're compatible to work together. Because as much as I love coaching, I know I'm not right for everyone. We know that we want to help everyone. But at the end of the day, I know who I'm meant to help when I speak to that. To answer your question, whether I would bring issues of raising kids and all that, it depends on where the client is at. If my client is single and just wants to focus on her career, then it's really not relevant to bring in anything regarding children. But I've coached quite a lot of young women who are either thinking of starting a family or about to get married. So they do talk about settling down and not so much of a parenting for those women. And there are those who are having their careers and having young kids, and they want to talk about work, life balance. And also a lot of times, mothers tend to put high expectations on themselves. Especially working moms. I'm not saying that the state at home moms don't put expectation. You probably want to put expectations on yourself to be the best stay at home mom. I was a stay at home mom with my son for about two and a half years, so I know that I was also trying to be the perfect stay at home mom. So women, we do tend to have quite a lot of high expectations on ourself. So issues like that come up. Who's actually putting this burden on you? And you think about this, It's actually yourself. No one's expecting you to be a super woman at work and at home. But you are putting that burden on yourself. So for such things, you do need more than one coaching session or one in one discovery calls to discover. The River Signature program is the longer one where I get the client to go back and discover what their values are, what their strengths are, and then to reevaluate their goals. Where this is career life goals or relationship goals. And how are these goals aligned with their values? Where do they see themselves in about five or ten years down the road? And we talk more about purposed living and the legacy that you want to leave behind. So that's a bigger, longer term coaching program. A popular one would be “the stream” because it's just three sessions. And I have clients who sign back on repeat because they realize that three is not enough about three sessions people in this day and age where we don't even know what, certainly the week ahead of us because everything's changing all the time. So they're like;” Jenny, I think I can only sign up for three sessions with you.” Especially for those who don't know me. But after that three sessions they work on a specific goal and we've built that trust and rapport and they feel more comfortable. Then they can continue on with another three or another6. So I do customize my coaching sessions as well. And there are those who come for just “the Brook”, which is 1 hour coaching session. These are people who are just more curious, like what is it all about it? And they just want to try it out as well. So I cater for the client's needs, and usually I find that out through the 30 minutes Discovery call

Peter;Because it's quite interesting because most coaches need do a similar thing with regards to on the website. You find a lot of a lot of business-, a lot of career-advice, a lot of career coaching. Some gratitude coaching and all that sort of stuff and that sort of thing. But I think some of my clients, some of my listeners, might well think; “hey, but Jenny is experienced with introverted kids, and I'm kind of struggling here” or at least marrying the especially like you said, because a lot of my listeners are, what we used to call, high achievers. As in Good career and kids and all that sort of stuff. But they might struggle in one or two areas. Of course, if they’re listening to this podcast, it be useful for them that they actually know that; Pete had Jenny on, and we can just get in touch with Jenny if we're struggling with one or two things and she can help us out here a little bit or guide us a little bit. But I don't want to make you sound like the nanny or anything like that. See if she can guide us a little bit, even what she did or what we might better do. 

Jenny; I think this high achiever trade is. Yes. There are influences from our upbringing and also our life experiences where they were at school or at work. But ultimately is what we choose to believe. And these are the voices in our mind telling us that, Jenny, you're not good enough. You need to be better if you pause and you ask yourself, Do I really need to be better? 

And that takes mental discipline, to pause because we don't. We always go on autopilot mode when we hear ourselves telling us that you need to do this. You need to do that. I had a client who kept saying, I should do this. I should do that. And after she had everything I said, so you've actually used the word “should” like 14 times (I counted) and that made her stop. She didn't realize that almost every sentence she was saying was “should”. So there was this expectation that she put on herself that she should be doing this and she should be doing this. But if you slow down and you ask yourself, should I really be doing this? Who knows? The answer could be yes. Then go ahead. But the answer could be no. No one's expecting me to do this. So I think going through your thoughts and your expectations on yourself with a coach, because I'm not in your life, Peter, I can provide you with that objective observation. I can hear what you're saying and what you're not saying, because a lot of times in the first session, you probably tell me safer topics, you don't go deep down. But if I challenge this lady has that you set the word should 14 times and that and that's when the coaching session went deeper because she started thinking, “why am I saying it so many times? What's going on here?” That's when the coach will take the client deeper to do more reflection and to discover where all these thoughts coming from. 

Peter; I used to be very guilty of this myself when I used to have a proper job, what I called a proper job when I was a project manager for a large telecomms company and some other things before. And I was your classic workaholic. I was classic. I had to be the top guy, in again in my own head, had to be. And it wasn't until I left that job because, you know, you can only put so much stress upon yourself before it becomes a good idea to change careers. So that's what I did. And then someone else who I used to work with. He said to me, Dude, you have to remember as long as you are up in the top 60, top 40%, you’re already ahead of the rest. Do you know what I mean? As in you thinking that you always have to give 80, 90-100 percent is only in your head. It is always if you in that particular job, because with a big company, it's always just about being above average. Average is 50%. So why are you giving the company it whilst at the same time neglecting what's going on in the house, that it just doesn't make any sense. And like I said, it's always nice. I said to them at the time of that. Thanks for not telling you

Jenny; It’s all about perspective is an inter. Hearing it from your friend telling you that you don't have to be 80 90%. That's hearing someone from the outside telling you so that's offering you a different perspective at the end of the day, you need to believe that perspective. So you do need, especially for introverts. We'll take that in and we'll start thinking about this and probably spend time researching this as well. Is it true that I do need to be? I should be only content at 60% and all that. I know we internalize it a lot, and we mull about it a lot. So the beauty of it is when my client discovers this different perspective, whatever it is for themselves, because that is so much stronger. And then they believe in this new perspective and that's when the changes start to happen. So it's great that I offer you different perspectives and all that. But ultimately, Peter, you need to decide for yourself. I believe this one? So I hope now down that you've changed careers. You've realized that. Yeah, I know. I don't have to kill myself on the job, right? 

Peter; Yeah. Exactly. In my life is completely different now. Well, like I said, I've got three dogs now, I wouldn’t have time for even one. You're completely right. 

But in the same goes for parent. We all have to find our own parenting style a little bit. But it helps  getting some outside perspective on these things every now and again from indeed, like you, like you mentioned from someone who at least has some idea of what they're talking about rather than just doing what all your friends still use to do all the time. Yeah. 

Jenny; Because everyone has something wise to tell you, right? Yeah. 

Peter; Yeah I  lot of opinions about stuff I know nothing about. 

Jenny; Yeah, but we all mean well, yeah.

Peter;  I don't mean that in a negative way, but yeah, if you're asking my opinion, I will give it even if I know nothing about not nearly enough about a certain subject. 

Jenny; So that's why I believe that's important that my clients know exactly what their core values are. So because we're bombarded by all these well meaning advice and all that. But if you know it doesn't resonate with your values or your long term purpose, what you want to leave behind, what's your legacy, then you're gonna be like, straight in the wind, trying to follow what's trendy? What's right. But if you're very sure of your purpose, no matter what advice you receive, you be able to descern which one will help me get to my purpose. My end goal quicker or better, and which ones, although well meaning, is really not suitable, because that's not what I want in my life. So that is like your compass. So I believe that when you're sorted with your core values and you know what your purpose is, that's your compass and it will keep you on that road to where you want to go. 

Peter; Yeah. And especially when it comes to raising kids get I mean, it all looks nicely together, I suppose. But when you talk about your core values and the values you want to instill in your children and all that sort of stuff. A lot of the outside advice that you might well pick up on parenting programs and the Internet and Facebook groups and all that sort of stuff. It is all stuff that indeed is you probably think about before we implement it. 

es. Sometimes the temptation is to say, especially in this day and age, where everything online, at least, is a bit of an echo chamber. So it's very tempted to get wrapped up in people that seemingly agree with what you're saying seemingly have the same way of thinking. Then they come out with a with a statement, and then it's easy, sometimes, to copy paste that statement in our head and go, “I should now be doing exactly what your client will say. I should now be doing X because this person said that this is the best thing to do without considering whether it is the best thing to do for me and for my kids and all that sort of stuff.”

Jenny;  So when your kids are older, although you have all this, like I said, all these ideas, It gets very interesting and you want to if your kids are older and they can understand, talk to them, have have a family discussion. I know that in my family, we do have quite a lot of family discussion. To the extent that my kids say, “oh, do we have to have a family discussion about this?” Because they know Mom, dad has to sit down and everyone. So we get them to tell their views and to be open to their ideas. So again, have to be very careful when you have this kind of open family discussion because it's meant to be a discussion. It's not meant for mom and dad to say, we're gonna do A, we just want you to listen and then you agree. So we have to also be prepared that they're going to give you deferring views. And I think kids feel really acknowledged and empowered when they know that mom and dad they are truly listening to me and they are actually giving weight to what I'm saying. And that will help them eventually when they go to the workplace. Right. They are now more emboldened to say their piece because at home they were not saying they were not told like, “Oh, you're only six so don't say anything else”, of course, choose the discussion if it's for six years old, choose the discussion and the age appropriate topics. But my kids are now more than ten years old and the youngest. So it's easier to get into those more adult conversations, like making decisions about the house and also about what they want to do and things like that. So I would say have this open discussion. 

Peter; Yeah. Because especially with, I suppose, with introverted kids, when you're talking about the family, sit down. They may well need more time to express themselves or be they might need a follow up chat.

Jenny; They might need a one to one. I have my daughter's coming. That's why we have a family discussion. And if my middle one didn't say her piece at the table. Half an hour later, I hear knock on the door and she’ll say “Mammy I still need to talk to you”. So we have to be ready for that. Even though you think that you've drawn a line under the discussion like you said, they may not say it even in a family where we're so familiar with each other, they may not say it in the bigger meeting, but they'll come to you for a one to one, and that's when you are there to listen to them, to hear what they say. And for me, if I'm pressed for time, I will just tell them upfront the rule. So it's like the rules of engagement. We have 20 minutes and there's five of us. Each one of us have three minutes to say what we say and they will take it away and they will come back again to make a decision. So you do maybe need to frame. Again prepare. Preparation is very important for introverts. Tell them this meeting will only take 20 minutes, and this is what we're gonna do. And I want to hear what everyone says. And if you have more time than you can tell them, or we can talk about this over dinner and then the conversation can go on a bit longer. So that's how you manage expectations. What's very important to manage expectations, even though you think your child is too young, they like that routine and that predictability. I mean, we adults like that, too, but I think if we can manage with uncertainty, but the for kids they want that predictability that they know that. Okay. I know what's going to happen from 09:00 A.m. To 10:00 A.m.. That's what I know, and that makes them feel secure. 

Peter; That is definitely what I see all around me. To be honest, as long as everybody knows exactly how much electronic time there is, how much electronic time they're earning and all that sort of stuff, they seem to be quite content doing whatever you want them to do. Lovely. I think we've covered a lot, but anything else you wanted to cover, Jenny?

Jenny;  I mean, I'm really thankful for this time that we're able to connect and with a fellow introvert his green that you're all the way there in the UK. I mean when we’re talking about our kids. It resonates with you, it resonates with me. It's almost like we are talking about the same kids. But no, we are not talking about the same kids. Every child is different. But I hope that your listeners will know that if they're facing a difficult time with an introverted, toddler or preteen or teenager, you're not alone. Someone else out there is facing exactly the same thing. Like what we're talking about. 

Peter; And like I said again, don't just copy paste all the advice you get, sit and mull it over and talk to your kids. As Jenny mentioned communication is key. So on that happy note I will press stop recording.

Peter outro;

 And that is exactly what I did. Thanks very much for Jenny for coming on. You can find her at River lifecoaching.com and LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram. I will link to all that sort of stuff in the podcast description, of course.

Speaking of podcast description, remember to like and subscribe or subscribe and download whatever you do with podcasts. I don't know. Just click the subscribe button so that you don't miss an episode. It’s much appreciated. The more we get these numbers up, the more information I can get out there. And you know, I'm not selling anything. So that'll be lovely. Right in the news this week. It's HPNB news. You know, someone told Jess the other day, or got in touch with Jess or Jess saw something online about there not being any post natal exercise programs that are accessible to people with hearing difficulties. And so she sent me an email saying; “ I thought you were doing something with that”. And I was I was. Except of course not. I got distracted. I stopped transcribing videos. So we had that done! The first four weeks, or the first four months actually. Sorry, are now fully accessible with all videos having accurate transcriptions and the rest of the programs being worked on as we speak, tons of new videos coming out as well. They will also be transcribed. All new podcast have some sort of audio transcription and all that sort of stuff. Or at least a summary there of. I'm looking for people to test the user friendliness of this. So if you have hearing difficulties, get in touch. Or you know someone that does, just get in touch and I will give them free lifetime access if they're willing to give me a bit of feedback. Anyways, that is the podcast for this week. I hope you have a great one. I'm back next week with another great interview about positive parenting with someone called Debbie..Goulding, I think. She's a positive parenting expert. I've already recorded the interview. It was a superb chat. She was great fun. And yeah, if you like Jenny's interview, then you're gonna love this one as well. Anyways, you take care of yourself. Here's a new bit of music. I’ll check in on you later. Bye