The Healthy Post Natal Body Podcast
The Healthy Post Natal Body Podcast
Mental Health Prep: The Missing Piece in Pregnancy Preparation with Kayce Hodos
This week I am delighted to be joined by Kayce Hodos as we're discussing perinatal mental health and why it's soo often overlooked as a natural part of pregnancy preparations.
Kayce is a Licensed Clinical Mental Health Counselor and Perinatal Mental Health Specialist who helps anxious and overwhelmed moms navigate motherhood with confidence. Drawing from her own experience with postpartum anxiety and 20 years in the mental health field, she cuts through unrealistic parenting advice to deliver evidence-based mindfulness strategies that actually work. Whether her clients are struggling with sleep deprivation, feelings of isolation, or questioning their abilities as a mom, Kayce offers the professional guidance and genuine understanding they need to thrive.
We discuss many things including;
Why mental health prep is as important, if not more, than buying the right car seat.
Why it is soo often overlooked.
Why I hate the term "baby blues".
How your partner can, and should, help. (and so should the rest of the village)
Why a second, or third, child is more difficult mentally than the first (Sounds obvious, doesn't it?)
Why not feeling an immediate connection with your child is completely normal!
Why parents of twins are the ones you talk to when you want REAL parenting stories.
And much, much more
You can find Kayce in all the usual places;
Get 30% (!!!) off coaching with Kayce (As you know, I do NOT take commisions or referral monies)
For support regarding perinatal mental health, you can call the Postpartum Support International (PSI) helpline at 1-800-944-4773 (4PPD) or text HOME to 741741 for the National Crisis Text Line
In the US National Maternal Mental Health Hotline at 1-833-852-6262 (1-833-TLC-MAMA).
As always; HPNB still only has 5 billing cycles.
So this means that you not only get 3 months FREE access, no obligation!
BUT, if you decide you want to do the rest of the program, after only 5 months of paying $10/£8 a month you now get FREE LIFE TIME ACCESS! That's $50 max spend, in case you were wondering.
Though I'm not terribly active on Instagram and Facebook you can follow us there. I am however active on Threads so find me there!
And, of course, you can always find us on our YouTube channel if you like your podcast in video form :)
Visit healthypostnatalbody.com and get 3 months completely FREE access. No sales, no commitment, no BS.
Email peter@healthypostnatalbody.com if you have any questions, comments or want to suggest a guest/topic
If you could rate the podcast on your favourite platform that would be a big help.
Playing us out this week; "Dizzie" by September
Hey, welcome to the Healthy Postnatal Body Podcast with your postnatal expert, peter Lap. That, as always, would be me. This is the podcast for the I want to say, the 23rd of March 2025. And today, you know, day before music means I have a guest on. You know this stuff, you know the drill by now.
Peter:I'm talking to Kayce Hodos, and she is a licensed clinical mental health counselor and a perinatal mental health specialist. We are talking yes, this is another mental health one, because I'm big on this type of stuff we are talking about mental health prep, the missing piece in pregnancy preparation, as Casey calls it why mental health prep is as important as learning how to install a car seat and all that type of stuff. You're going to love this conversation. I know I bang on about this subject a lot and I've had a lot of people talk about PPD, ppa, all that type of stuff, but you're going to love this conversation. Stick around, you will learn stuff, I promise. So, without further ado, here we go. One of the interesting things because, like I said, I've done a few of these, but one of the interesting things that you talk about is, um, you talk about the importance of mental health prep before giving birth. So why is it so important and where do you even start with that?
Kayce:I was so happy that you asked that because that is my thing. Like I, I feel like we do so much prep with childbirth classes and there are books about the baby gear to buy and the perfect stroller and you know, the perfect sound machine and the monitor and all those things are great and important, but your mental health is. I think I would say we need to prioritize that because that's the part that's going to impact everything else your connection with your baby, your own mood, your relationship with your partner, your relationship with your support system, your relationship with your partner, your relationship with your support system, and so I just think it's a missing piece in all of the different you know pregnancy prep stuff out there and I just happen to feel like that it should be up there with. I mean, it's as important to me as a car seat.
Peter:Well, yeah, I think it's. When you think about it it's. It's a no-brainer, right? It's the? Do you buy the right buggy, or or, or or not, it's. It's what color doesn't actually need to be, and those are all fairly secondary questions. Next, yeah, it's fun. You know all of that stuff is and we should be doing this, yeah sure yeah, and and I like the car seat analogy because a car seat is preventative.
Kayce:You know, we don't install a car seat or wear our seatbelt because we're planning to get into a crash. We install a car seat so that we can safely transport our baby and your mental health prep. I see that as kind of like you know, a safety belt for for the road ahead, um, after baby comes, um. So I I like that analogy, cause we don't do a lot of prevention, um in our in, like Western culture, um, we kind of wait, of wait until um something goes wrong and then we want to fix it. But um, I think when it comes to um, to postpartum mental health and even mental health during pregnancy, I think um, as prepared as you can be, is the way to go and being proactive can really make a huge difference oh yeah, no for sure, and I think you're.
Peter:You're completely right with regards to the. We do tend to be quite reactive when it comes to all that type of stuff. We're very much used to seeing a doctor when things are wrong rather than Right, the other day, saying I'm 50 years old, how about we do a little mot, a little help, and they're like no, no, there's nothing wrong with you, we're not paying for that, but this will save you money if everybody just goes to see, gets checked out first and that sort of thing, and we just don't do it unless you pay for it from your own pocket. So where do you start? Because there's a lot. I mean, people don't like to talk about it, but, but postpartum mental health issues are much more common than people think they are.
Kayce:Yes, and that, yeah, that's important, I think, as kind of a starting point, is just to educate yourself about the statistics, and we think around one in four, one in five new moms experiences depression, and it's probably higher because, like you said, people don't want to talk about it and people under-report and moms put themselves last, especially after the baby comes. Right, it's all about the baby gaining weight and eating and sleeping and all those things. But, yeah, and one in ten new fathers experienced depression. So it's happening to everybody and um, and so I think that's really key too, to remember that it's not just the mom, it's, it's a huge adjustment for um, for partners as well, um, and so, yeah, um, and I think, communicating about that stuff you know, know, just educating yourself, like I said, and communicating with your partner and with your support system about hey, we are about to go into the biggest transition of our whole life and you know what do we need to set us up for success?
Kayce:We need support. That's another thing people don't want to do. It's very difficult to ask for help. So I think, along with that communication piece, is also accepting that this is going to be hard. You know it's hard to reach out for help. We don't have our village like early humans had, and people are spread out all over the place and a lot of people don't have that built-in family system to watch out for each other and some people don't even have a lot of friends who can come up. You know we're just so isolated in our modern, you know living arrangements and so I think we have to accept that like, okay, this is going to be uncomfortable, this is going to be hard. Those are feelings and I can notice those feelings and still do the hard thing because it's what's best for me and my family.
Peter:Sure, it's what's best for me and my family.
Peter:Sure, because it's interesting, because it's when you I always talk about this when, when it comes to postpartum mental health, and when they're not, it's not just underreported, it's, it's, it's um, and it's interesting that you mentioned the dad in this because it's because the there is a biological element to postpartum depression, postpartum anxiety, especially in the first few weeks.
Peter:The massive hormonal changes are are a real shock to the system. Yeah, and, and the reason and I always point this out, the reason in the uk you have a six-week checkup, right, postpartum checkup at the gp GP, and I always point this out, the reason it's at six weeks is because when the doctor asks you the question, are you thinking of killing yourself? Because that's fundamentally what that checkup from mom is about. Right, it's all about the baby and then, by the way, you're going to want to kill yourself. At that stage you're usually, it's a bit more settled. Yes, so the chances of you answering no, I'm feeling okay within myself are significantly higher at six weeks than they are at three weeks, which is why the postpartum checkup isn't at three weeks, because all of a sudden, that one in four becomes a one in two.
Kayce:Oh, yeah, yeah, you're right. Yeah, we call that the baby blues.
Peter:The first few weeks.
Kayce:Most new parents do feel that, and especially new mothers. Because of the hormonal fluctuations and you're learning to breastfeed, if you choose to do that you're not getting as much sleep and so, yeah, it's totally natural to be tearful and kind of sad and kind of just down in the dumps and blah and you've had this huge change in your life. But yeah, but as time goes on, you kind of are starting to get the hang of it. Not that you have a schedule, it's still very hard and you're still not getting a lot of sleep at six weeks, especially if you're breastfeeding. But yeah, but things are starting to kind of you're starting that adjustment process.
Peter:That's a really good point. You can see the light at the end of the tunnel a little bit, so to speak. The end of the tunnel a little bit, so to speak. But I always think it's important to to to point out that even that, almost no matter what crap you do right, because you can be as well prepared as as you could possibly be, if that first three to four weeks, if you don't have the support that you spoke about, like I just did, it's not out yet.
Peter:As we're talking, just from the list, this is the 21st of Feb and on the 23rd is an episode I have coming out with Brian Crawford about traditional Chinese medicine and their habit of sitting the month Right. I don't know if you're familiar with it. I've done a ton of episodes on this with various experts. They basically have a mom needs to do nothing period and loads of cultures have this. Mom has 30 days where the family takes care of stuff, and that doesn't mean that sort of families are cooking or you have special nurses that help that as well. They do the dishes, they do the washing up, they do the cleaning, because all mother has to do is focus on her recovery and her bond with the baby In the West. I mean, we have none of that stuff.
Kayce:No, yeah, yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up.
Kayce:Yeah, we, there's a lot of great things about western medicine and western culture, right like I love all my creature comforts that I have in, uh, in a western culture, but yeah, but we have a lot to learn from those other cultures that really take care of mom and prioritize her job. It her job is to is to bond with her baby, to take care of herself, to recover, to feed, to learn how to feed her baby and to rest. She grew a human for 40 weeks and we like to say nine months.
Peter:It's actually 10 months. That's another lie. We tell, yeah, very much, so, very much so, yeah, but because because that first 30-day period, uh is is so essential when it comes to to not, I'm not talking physical recovery it matters for now, but not in the go see a personal trainer and pelvic floor type way. I'm just talking much more about restorative, yeah, sort of recovery. You know, get your chicken broth in. That type of recovery is what I mean. Um, but when you're talking about that, that mental health aspect of it, how can, how can people prepare for it going to be tougher than they likely think it's going to be? Because we all always assume it's all unicorns and rainbows when we're pregnant.
Peter:It's going to be amazing, right it's, and that's just not the way it's. The cookie crumbles.
Kayce:Yeah From. Yeah, for most people it's not. It can be like, of course, like you love your baby Right. Yeah, for most people it's not. It can be like, of course, like you love your baby right. And a lot of women do experience that rush of oxytocin that that makes you know that, I mean, we're biological creatures wired to survive and to procreate. So, of course, like you know, we naturally do feel this love for this little tiny human that we just brought into the world. And there's that. But, yeah, we don't know what we don't know. So, especially if you're a first time parent, you don't know how that's going to go. You don't know how you're mentally going to cope with all of the things, especially the sleep deprivation.
Kayce:Like our brains do not do well on very little sleep and I don't want this to come across as like I'm trying to scare people, you know, out of having babies. Like that is not what this is about. It's really just to prepare for what you can prepare for, because like you said, like there's a lot of stuff you can't prepare for.
Kayce:You don't know what your baby's temperament is going to be, you don't know what kind of sleeper your baby's going to be, you don't know how breastfeeding is going to go. You don't know, like, if you and if you have a traumatic birth, there's even a higher risk for mental health issues, because you're also dealing with trauma on top of recovery and all the things. And I think that to prepare best is to be ready with a little coping toolkit, and so that means having people lined up ready to do some to help you meet your basic needs. We don't know a lot about what's going to happen, but we do know that mom and dad are going to have to eat, they're going to have to stay hydrated. If they have pets, those pets are going to need care. So I even include that I think you need to find somebody who can come over and walk your dog for you, or yeah, absolutely yeah because you are not going to have the bandwidth and you shouldn't, you shouldn't have to do all these other things um.
Kayce:So so lining up, you know, matching people in your support system with jobs, that that will need to be done, so like making a list of just all the things you do um from day to day that will need doing laundry, cleaning, I mean cleaning can kind of take a back seat, but you know um but hey, if there's somebody but if you have that, you know, if you have that mother-in-law or a friend who just loves to clean, tell them come on over, yeah, yeah, yeah and and so.
Kayce:So we really have to get over that. Like not asking for help and like I can be strong, I can do this by myself. Like you are strong.
Peter:Even when you ask for help, you're still strong doesn't mean you're not strong, and it's an important thing that you raise and I know you talk about this as well but the boundaries with regards to early motherhood and all that type of thing.
Peter:Because when you're asking someone for help, when you're asking someone to clean the house or walk in the dog, it is important, as I always say, to then realize your job then is not to entertain them Right when you are the early mother, because everybody wants to come around to see the baby, right, yes, everybody wants to walk the dog if they can then see the baby, right. But if their job is to walk the dog, and even if it's your friend, if it's their job, it is not your responsibility to entertain them. So how do you then set that boundary for people? Because asking for help a lot of the time, especially for isolated people, like you said, we all live our own little lives you can kind of tell family to do. You know what I mean. I kind of said right now, go away, uncle bob, I just need you to do stuff. But with friends there's almost always a quid pro, but I helped you out, so now can I get my little reward. So how do you suggest dealing with that element of it?
Kayce:yeah, it's a difficult conversation and we have to accept that like this is not going to feel good. Nobody likes confrontation. We just don't. We don't do well with it. It's a hardwired thing in our brain that, like, we want to be accepted socially and so we don't want to rock the boat. So, okay, I can. I can notice that it feels scary and I can still do it.
Kayce:And I think having you know, having that clear list of things for people to do and kind of talking to them and including them in that process, like you know, my partner and I have this list of all the things and we're going to need somebody to walk the dog and I think you know, sally, you would be great because the dog loves you and you love animals and you are familiar with the dog. So, like, why don't you come over and do that? And we will need that three times a week. Do you want to do it in the morning? Do you want to? Like? The more specific you can be with people, I think the better. Everybody loves a baby, everybody wants to get those cuddles in. But if you are still recovering and you don't feel comfortable having people in your space, it is okay to say, um, we're not going to have visitors until whatever date. You know, we are going to be settling in as a little family for the first whatever you want it to be, six months, your house, your rules, right.
Kayce:Yeah, yeah, and so, and it is really hard for most people to do that, and sometimes with and if you already struggle with anxiety, then it's even harder to do those things because you are what we call catastrophizing in your head.
Kayce:This person is going to hate me, they're going to be mad at me, they're not going to love me anymore, they're going to disappear from my life. They're what no Like. And sometimes you have to ask yourself what is the worst. That would happen if I asked this person for help. But I also tell them we're not having visitors right now, that I just need this one specific thing from them what is the worst? Are they going to walk out of your life? Well, I say, if they do, they were not a great friend.
Kayce:So, yeah, so it's like pushing through that discomfort and those fears because you're keeping your eye on, on the goal.
Peter:The goal is to have your needs met and to have these tasks taken care of and so you can focus on your job, which is being a mom yeah, no doubt that makes that makes absolute sense, and I I do think that element of us as part of of like postpartum prep and all that sort of thing, having that list and having the people that kind of the whole team knows what to do, so to speak that is huge and it is definitely like you said. It's an element that is often overlooked amongst all the fun stuff that is often overlooked amongst all the fun stuff.
Kayce:Right, because you're going to have tons of decisions to make in those first few weeks. You're going to be learning a lot of new things. You're going to be maybe visiting with the pediatrician. I know here in the US babies who if they aren't gaining enough weight right away, they have to go to the pediatrician. I remember with my son we were in there. I don't know in my memory it was like every day, but I don't know if it was really every day, but it was probably every other day because he wasn't gaining enough weight and we had to go in there and you know, meet with the lactation nurse and weigh the baby.
Kayce:And you know, and you're doing, you know. So you don't know what's ahead of you in terms of all that stuff. So you want to have some things already planned and that cuts down on the decisions that you have to make in the in those first few weeks. You know if you've already taken care of that, that's off your plate now and you and you avoid that.
Kayce:You know a lot of people will be texting you like let me know if you need anything, silence, and it's like oh, I got to come up with the thing that they can do for me, or you know or otherwise. They just come over and they just want to see the baby. But if you have already done that homework ahead of time and you already have a plan, then you don't have to worry about those vague offers of help. You've already told people like like this is what we need, and and you can always say when somebody says let me know if you need anything, an answer you can always give is we need to eat. You can bring over a meal that we can put in the freezer and reheat later when we need it, right? Yeah, that's always something you're going to need, and so that's an easy one yeah, if people want to do something.
Peter:If you think now, because letting people help is a kindness in itself, right it's. It's, if people genuinely want to help, you're doing them a favor almost by letting them help, even if you're like yeah, I don't really do. You know what I mean.
Peter:As in I don't aunt sally to stick with the Sally name. I hope you don't have a friend named Sally, otherwise we're in trouble. But Aunt Sally is a lousy cook, but she means well and at some stage on a Sunday when we're all tired, her soup will actually do. But then it's a kindness to say to Aunt Sally can you make us that soup? You make, right, that's totally, even though you're like God, help us, right, right, it is part of the cultivation of the village requires a little bit of sacrifice from us as well, even though we're not necessarily that desperate to have certain people um right so in our life.
Peter:Yeah, yeah, exactly yeah because you know what family is like right it's still family, it's, it's, uh, says the guy who moved hundreds of countries away. Right, so do as I say, don't do as I do, people oh, we don't, we just we don't.
Kayce:We don't get to choose our family right, Exactly so yeah, and that's a good. You know you bring up a good point, because not everybody in your family or your network, not everybody's going to be the people that you want to help you.
Kayce:And that's okay too. You know that's all right. You can have those people send you a door dash gift card or amazon gift card for diapers, you know, like there there's probably something that person can do, um, and they don't have to be in your home to do it, true, um, yeah, that's a good, that's a good point, um, because, like you said, that that's that idea of space is absolutely huge.
Peter:So, how much of this? Okay, so we've done that part of the prep, which is still very practical, right, we've done. By doing that prep, we've made our postpartum life significantly easier because all the mundane stuff doesn't need to get done anymore. But of course, there is a huge genetic element to postpartum mental health and and and all that sort of stuff.
Peter:I've had several, uh, several clients that that worked with me, that were on their second or their third child or something like that, and they know it's coming because they experienced it with their first right. And the first kind of tells you and I don't know if anyone listening to this is is aware, everyone listening to this is aware of it the first one kind of tells you how the second one is likely to be, uh, the experience. It doesn't mean for sure that it'll be a carbon copy of, but chances are significantly higher. Um, so, when a lot of people are of the, I'll cross that bridge. I've done the easy prep now we have, we kind of know that it's coming. Won't, won't that maternal instinct type that I'll figure out what to do. I managed it with my first right. I plowed ahead, I struggle along with my first, because I never asked for help. What, what, what is your advice to someone who's, who's in that, in that mind space, in that head space, so to speak?
Kayce:well, I think it's really important to take a clear, honest look at at your risk factors. I see that as a risk factor. You know that. You know if you already struggle with anxiety or depression or you have a family history of mental health issues, then that puts you at a higher risk of having postpartum mental health problems. So, and your partner, same goes for him or her. You know that person.
Kayce:So, really like just being honest with your reflection on how you've dealt with stress in the past. And certainly, baby number two, yeah, like you, kind of you know at least a little bit of what to expect. But you know, with postpartum mental health, it can, it can happen with the second, even if it didn't happen with the first. Yes, um, you know, and and I think, um, you know we gear a lot of this information towards first-time moms, first-time moms. But yeah, it really is important, no matter how many you've had before, to just be aware that it could, this could, could happen, and and so, and also like just thinking of, like, what have I done in the past that's similar. So if you're on number two or three, then you've had a baby in the past. So like remembering what was really hard about that and what do I remember I really struggled with. So just you know, reflecting on that stuff and what could I do this time around, that might help a little bit with that. So if you didn't ask for help before and you're listening to this conversation now, maybe you feel a little bit more confident with having that conversation with your support system and your partner.
Kayce:So, looking at previous experience, look at how you've dealt with stress before in your life that maybe wasn't a baby. That's very that's one of the most extreme stressors that a human can experience. But we all have dealt with loss before, of some kind financial stress. You know disagreements with your partner, like how do those things typically go for you? Well, how do you cope with those things? And that will inform your choices moving ahead, because you're probably, if that's your tip, you know if your typical coping skill is to withdraw from people and not ask for help and just you know power through, that's probably what you're going to do this time around and that may not be the healthiest decision. So again, it's like it, like just being honest with yourself and being honest with your partner. You know how do you deal with conflict in your in your relationship Now. Add sleep deprivation to that and know it and not knowing what the hell you're doing. Add that to the picture and maybe partner going back to work Now I know in the UK you guys have an excellent paternity leave.
Peter:It's a little bit better than in the States.
Kayce:yes, Little bit, you have it. You have one.
Peter:Paternity leave is slightly different, but yeah, we're not up there with Norway, but we're miles ahead of the US.
Kayce:Yeah, yeah, and so you know, people in the US no-transcript and we're not at our you know, at our peak performance level. What are we going to do when, if you know that you need like a solid nine hours of sleep every night to function, we need to figure out a plan for you, because you're not going to get that? I would say probably in the first? At least like 12 weeks around 12, 13 weeks babies start. Some babies start to sleep a little bit longer, you might be lucky, yeah you might be lucky, yeah, yeah.
Kayce:So, so, even like planning for that, because all of this is a part of your mental health and, yes, we cover some very practical things like matching people with jobs that they need to do and tasks that need to be done. Um, but really thinking about your own mental health and what's, what are some patterns that you already know about yourself and your partner and and what can you do?
Peter:yeah, yeah because, because that's huge. Well, what you said earlier is the reflecting on what your previous birth experience was like. Because that's because whenever I see parents with three kids, especially three is like the magic number for when things start to go crazy, as in, that number is just too manageable. Three is oh, that's one too many, and past that you're just in an insane number.
Peter:Yeah, exactly so so it's, it's the, it's the, the second one. Because quite often, obviously, kids are born two, three years after one another. Siblings tend to be in that kind of ballpark. So your life when your second is born is actually trickier, because you already have a toddler, that's so true. And then you have that toddler and baby, congratulations. And those are two balls. You can still juggle kind of. And then when you add, say, another couple of years, so they have a five-year-old, three-year-old and a baby, congratulations. And that's why most people with three kids are completely out of their head. Right, that's true, if anyone listening to this, if you have friends with three or more children, these people are nuts. These are not real people, right?
Kayce:I love them dearly children. These people are nuts. These are not well people, right?
Peter:yes, reach out to those people and see if they need you. They probably do. They need some help. So so give these, give these people a break. But it's it's as one of my clients who has five kids, uh, will point out, the reason she has five kids is because she never thought about it. She never, she never reflected back what you were talking about. Reflect back to your first because she said, if I reflect back to my first, I wouldn't have had my second because the, the bio, human biology, it's kind of like what you were saying. We're put on this earth, a large, there's a huge biological, primal instinct to procreate and all that type of stuff. But that makes us forget what the actual experience was like. Right, it's in the, in the old, you know. That's why, two years after giving birth to your first, you feel you're ready for a second. Wouldn't it be nice? Because you've completely forgotten about, yeah, most of the stuff. So reflecting is is, it's a skill that we don't often practice in that context, right?
Kayce:it's so true. Yes, our brain just kind of takes over for us and um, you know, but we are. We are creatures who have evolved and we live in a modern world. Now we don't have to keep having babies if we don't want to. In most places currently in the us, that is a little bit of an issue, but you know we won't go there, we don't have to talk politics.
Kayce:That's another minefield yeah, yeah, we'll avoid that, um, but, but, yeah, like, really just be.
Kayce:Yeah, I think reflection is so in mindfulness, you know, paying attention to how you feel, um, and and noticing that, you know, like, being honest with yourself, like, just because your best friend has three kids doesn't mean you have to have three kids, um, you know we, you know we really can, like, we can, um, have the life that we want to have for just that reason, that that's the way we want it, right? But yeah, that's kind of that's a little bit off topic, but but, yeah, but making making decisions based on what you want, and so in your planning, you know, you're prepping for what's to come in postpartum, really like focusing on what you and your partner need. You have that goal in mind that, like, this is our life and what do, how do we want it? Who do we want to be around during this really vulnerable time in our life? You know, what kinds of assistance do we have? What kind of resources are out there? Like I say, like you know, in the United States we have a maternal mental health hotline, which not everybody knows about.
Kayce:And it's really important and hopefully it will continue to be funded. I know they're advocating right now to the new administration to please keep this resource available for new parents and it's 1-833-TLC-MAMA for US for those of you who are in the US and there may be others like in other countries, I'm not sure but there's an international organization called Postpartum Support International and that one they are everywhere. So if you look that up, it's postpartumnet. I always include that in the list of resources to just have handy, just in case you can call them anytime, and they have online virtual support groups for moms and dads. They have like second time around groups for, you know, second time parents and for loss, and just this is a wonderful organization that is global and and, yeah, and it's.
Peter:You know we're not going to talk about, uh, mr musk. So much. Anybody who follows me online will know what my opinion on that charlatan really is. So yes, I think we are like-minded, peter yeah, I know very few people that have worked in this, in this postpartum space, yeah, that are on that particular side. Um, because otherwise you can't really work in the postpartum space, I don't think right, you kind of have to have compassion to do this.
Peter:Yes, exactly you need to, kind of you know certain things are yeah, women's health it's a right, not a privilege. It's my, it's the slogan yes, yes, right, that type of thing. I kind of. That's what this whole thing was. This, this is how we started this nonsense. Um so, yes, musk evil, trump evil, blah, blah, blah.
Kayce:Let's just throw that out there my opinion only not yours, so I'm very outspoken I totally agree with you.
Peter:It's yes. I will link to the National Maternal Health Mental Health Hotline and all that sort of stuff. I will throw it in. Anything that Katie is mentioning here I will make sure I link to in the episode description for anyone listening so you don't have to rewind and try to find it and all that sort of stuff.
Kayce:That's great, Peter.
Peter:Thank you and now see this is a problem. I had a point and now I've.
Kayce:I know I got you off topic.
Peter:I'm so sorry I've forgotten what my point? No, there was a point directly related to something you said and then it went out of my head because I'm 50 and stuff doesn't stay in my head.
Kayce:I'm 52.
Peter:I just turned 50 in 2024, yeah, so look at us this thing does not have video people, but you won't believe how much younger casey looks than I do and this is not just a lighting issue, I do have good lighting that's yeah, but it's, it's the, it's the it, it's this, it's, it's one of those things that a lot of the mental health lines, that's what it is.
Peter:I did an interview with dr c I don't really know where is dr c, that's right about um postpartum psychosis yes, I look, I I listened to that one dr teresa costales, dr c yes, her, her people call her dr c and that, and that's who I was talking to. So Dr Teresa Costales is a phenomenal, phenomenal mental health professional and, as she was pointing out that these things can kind of just happen, yeah Right, mental health issues even if you have.
Peter:No, if you have no family history you have no, no indication of of anything you've done all the prep work, uh, that you could possibly do. The meals are in the fridge, people are walking the dogs and all that sort of stuff you can and I'm not talking baby blues, I'm talking more severe type stuff. These things can still happen and it doesn't. How do you then, as a professional, how do you explain to someone that this thing can happen, that it doesn't mean you love your child less than you thought you would?
Kayce:yeah, you say exactly that and you reinforce that every chance you get that this is something that happens and we don't really understand why.
Kayce:It has something to do with hormones and something to do with, maybe, risk factors, but even we, just we don't understand it and it needs a lot more research and it needs a lot more awareness, because we see women who go through these things and then they are arrested or they have their children taken away and you know, and it's you know, it is a mental health issue and it's important to be aware of warning signs and it's so important and that's another reason to have support to have people watching out for you and checking in and saying to you are you OK, Are you really okay? You know, I remember the pediatrician was the first person to ask me that in those first few weeks and I just started crying and I did not experience psychosis, to be clear, but I did experience postpartum anxiety and depression. But I did experience postpartum anxiety and depression and I am still grateful to that doctor for noticing something that just wasn't quite right with me.
Kayce:He could see that sadness or that blank stare on my face and whether it was sleep deprivation, who knows, you know, but he saw something and he addressed it, something and he addressed it and and we have to be it's another part of just of the honesty piece, I think, like being honest with ourselves and speaking up when we're feeling down and we don't have to know, um, exactly what's going on with us to speak up about it you know we don't have to right like you're not responsible for diagnosing yourself or to have a name, a label, but you do have.
Kayce:you know you have these people in your life, you have these experts, these you know you have a doctor for your baby, you maybe have a midwife or an OB GYN, you have friends, you have a partner and so you know, just telling it's being honest with these people that like I, with these people, that like I'm not feeling quite right and they can help you. And these numbers that we mentioned, these websites, and you know there's so many organizations out there that will not shame you and the shame that may come up for you. Remember it's a feeling, it's a pattern of energy that your brain is creating, for we don't have to understand why. We can notice it and speak up about it, and that does not mean anything about your love for your baby.
Kayce:Um, a lot of new moms don't even feel that bond with their baby. Yeah, and that is okay. You may not hear anybody else say that, but I'm telling you the truth. It doesn't mean anything about your love or your connection with your baby and things just don't come naturally to a lot of us and that is nothing to be ashamed about. If you don't look like all the new moms and the diaper commercials on tv, it's okay yeah no and and that no, and that's a really.
Peter:That's a really great point, Cause I I always used to compare it to the, and I love comparing having babies to getting a puppy right, Just because it drives people nuts when I do.
Kayce:Yeah, right, but it's so true, peter, I'm with you.
Peter:I love the look of puppies. You can put any puppy in my lap and I will want to take it home. Right? I don't have that feeling with babies necessarily, but okay puppies are cuter than yeah, exactly, but it's it's.
Peter:There is not necessarily a connection you feel straight away with a puppy in the same way that love at first sight. I think for most people that's hogwash, it's not a thing. Even hollywood tells you it is. But if if you've, like myself, I've been married for 18 years, I worked with my wife for a few years before that there's no love at first. It's not that I'm going to. I saw that woman and I immediately knew I would end up blah blah blah.
Peter:That's a pure fantasy babies are not that dissimilar from that right. Building a relationship takes time and even though you have that, sure you might have that biological connection as in. This is mine, I need to protect it, that type of thing. But this is mine. I have to like it or love. It is a completely different yes same goes with toddlers am I right, yeah I mean even teenagers.
Kayce:I think yes I have a 13 year old.
Peter:I am very much in the babies camp right, they're like, they're fine but also because obviously, as a postpartum personal trainer, it's what I do a lot is I'm really often when you talk about isolation. Quite regularly I am the only person non-family that a lot of women see throughout the week because I go to their house. I'm the only outsider that comes in. I'm there for them. I'm not there for the kid, I don't. If I ask you how the baby's sleeping, I ask that to find out how you're sleeping, not because I genuinely care how the baby's sleeping, right, yeah, but kids don't get cute until they start talking about dinosaurs, right.
Kayce:That is just true.
Peter:They need they need an interest and then they get cute, and then have a whole other 10 years where they're just not cute anymore.
Kayce:Um, because, we are telling the truth on this show we're not lying here um no sugar coating no, I mean kids.
Peter:Kids are just. You don't have to like every single one of them, because some babies are really difficult. You know, some babies are colicky and they are just and they can't.
Kayce:They don't have any words, they have zero skills, they have zero like they are completely dependent on their parents for a long time. Humans we are, we're very advanced creatures you know we have our big brains, but when we come out, we come out way too early in order for our brains to grow and be big and smart. The baby comes out like at least a trimester too early, right?
Peter:Yes, of course.
Kayce:Yeah, you know you see these YouTube videos so cute little giraffes popping out and then running around in, like you know, a few hours. They know how to do everything. Humans don't walk until at least a year.
Peter:Yeah, most babies are completely useless when they're born.
Kayce:Yeah, absolutely, and the grown-ups around are responsible to read the cues. What's going on? Is this a cry that means they're hungry or they need to be changed, or is something wrong? It's, yeah, it's really um.
Peter:Yeah, it's really stressful yeah, so give yourself a break. All new parents. Exactly, and it's exactly like you said. It's. It's you have to learn the language of, of a human being that doesn't speak any language yet. Right, when you're talking about does this cry mean hunger? Does this cry mean sleepy time? Does this kind of mean that kid crying at you oh knows what it wants, but it has no idea how to relate that information?
Kayce:Again, like a puppy, right, they have different barks and cues that need to go out or they need to eat, they need water? Yeah, exactly.
Peter:And then after a while. You know puppies again smarter than babies. They figure it out after a couple of weeks, right? If I tilt my head like this, I get a tasty treat, right? That type of thing? Baby's not quite there yet, right?
Kayce:no, you can put a puppy in a crate and it's fine. Don't put your baby in the crate, no, no, no, there's rules.
Peter:Fine, yeah, it's kind of, yeah, it's all wrong, because cribs are just great really when you think about it, but but it is. It is learning that new language of that, that human being that is completely dependent on you, that doesn't know how to communicate. It takes time, it's stressful for everybody, right? So if you can't feel that connection yet and you're upset about not feeling that connection yet, I'll be surprised if you have honest conversations with your friends, right? If they don't all turn around and go oh no, I felt exactly the same, right, right?
Kayce:And if they don't, and if they say, if there are women in your life who say, oh, I felt it, immediately I knew exactly like this was what I was supposed to do on this earth. Like good for you, like it doesn't mean that's that way for everybody. So you know, if that happened for you, amazing. I'm so happy that that was your experience. However, there are lots and lots of women that it doesn't go that way for them.
Peter:Not exactly, I would argue the vast majority of them.
Kayce:if we're honest yeah, I would too.
Peter:I've been to many baby and mama groups to do like chats and all that type of stuff. Twin twin groups twin twin groups are amazing. By the way, twin groups are phenomenal because those, those parents, don't care about social niceties and social norms.
Peter:If your baby smells. I'm changing your baby. I'm not asking you anything. You've got two I'm helping out, I'm not asking for anything. And they got two I'm helping out, I'm not asking for anything. And they're much more open and honest. Yeah, Because they're all sitting in the room going this sucks, doesn't it.
Kayce:Yeah, I never wanted to, because nobody plans twins. They have been pushed to the point where it's like no holds barred. We are telling the truth.
Peter:Yeah, exactly, they're wonderful. So if you have a parent of twins in your life, they're the people you talk to about what early stage parenting is really like and what it really feels like, because that filter is gone. They've been too busy for X amount of time that they don't need to. Society doesn't expect them to lie.
Kayce:Right. Oh, my God, you're so right, peter.
Peter:Yes good, great point, great advice. Because if you, if someone says I'm pregnant with twins, people go oh sucks to be you right, fundamentally right. This is gonna blow so hard that's pretty much what they're going to tell you. So when they turn around and go. This is really difficult. Everybody goes yeah, I told you, whereas right, you got two of them.
Kayce:Yeah, yeah of you tell people.
Peter:I'm practice. Oh, it's going to be so nice for you. Congratulations, right, that's a completely different, yeah, different, different um conversation you're having.
Kayce:So again it comes down.
Peter:One is also challenging, one is plenty yeah, yeah, yeah, one is plenty, yeah, yeah.
Kayce:I mean, one is enough. Plenty stressful.
Peter:One is enough for most people. There's a reason most people only have one is because that's how you can manage.
Kayce:And look, can I say one thing about the bonding with your baby? Of course we know I could just kind of like imagine that some people might be thinking but isn't it important to bond with your baby? Yes, it's important. It's important to hold your baby. It's important to you know, for babies to have human touch and skin to skin contact. Yes, it's very important for their brain development, but you can do that without feeling the emotional, you know connection. So that I think that I wanted to just put that out there, because a lot of times and talking to your baby.
Kayce:You know people are like, what do I say to the baby? It's a baby Like, it's just, like it doesn't even matter. You can be talking about the latest celebrity gossip or reading People Magazine to them or, you know, just talking about anything. It's just, they just need to hear a voice. They don't know what you're saying yet and they don't know that you're feeling like I just wish you would go to sleep like. They don't know your thoughts and feelings. So it's okay. But yeah, still hold the baby and um and care for your baby, even if you don't, you know, really feel like it, you know so I just want to say that because a lot of people are like, oh, what about the baby's brain development?
Kayce:Like the baby's fine.
Peter:Yeah, it is, and it's exactly like. It's exactly like what you said. It's the. The baby doesn't know what you're talking about, right? I find and my wife would tell you this a lot, and I see it. I've three dogs, so I walk the dogs a lot and I talk to my dogs all the time and my wife is constantly like what are you talking to them about? These are the best conversations I have on a daily basis because they don't involve other people. Do you know what I mean?
Kayce:I can have a conversation with a baby.
Peter:Give me a baby, as in pete. You're stuck with this baby for an hour. Okay, I will crush that and I will not stop talking for an hour, but I'm not asking for interactions for the baby, I'm just. You know, I've got stuff I need to get off my chest and I'm the only person who listens to myself every now and again, and the baby is just a vehicle.
Peter:It's just a vehicle to allow that to happen. You don't need baby talk, you don't need cuchu gugugaga we can have fully developed conversations and the love will come, the bond will come. It just takes time to build up, for sure. Yeah, so true, oh one more.
Kayce:I'm not hijacking your podcast but, I like to give people simple little nuggets that they can remember you know, so because when, when things are crazy and you feel like you're gonna lose it, like if you just have something that you can remember from this conversation, remember G P S, just like you know, when you're mapping a location to get to somewhere, you don't know where you're going.
Peter:Same thing.
Kayce:But this GPS is going to help you through post postpartum. So it stands for. The G is go outside. It doesn't matter where you can just go out onto your front porch or your balcony or wherever in your driveway. Go walk to get your mail from the mailbox, like, whatever like. Just get some fresh air and get a little bit of sunshine, even if it's cloudy day. Go outside, because it is a reset for your brain. It is a reset for your brain. It reminds your brain that you're still moving and it gives your brain just the cues that it needs to keep you going. And it can be a mental reset.
Kayce:The P stands for a protein snack and in your work, peter, you know all about this. Eat something that's going to stick with you. I'm not telling you, don't eat your junk food. Have whatever you need. You got to eat. But if you have your pantry stocked with some and your fridge stocked with yogurt, cheese, peanut butter, something with some protein in it, just include that and that will just help us regulate our emotions and it helps us stay full that kind of thing, the S is sleep.
Kayce:You guessed it Sleep.
Peter:It's always sleep.
Kayce:yeah, it's always sleep right. It's so important and you're not going to be able to get all of the. Just like the Rolling Stones said, you may not get what what you want, but you can get what you need. So you can. You can get a good nap in there you maybe get three hour nap, two hour nap get, get some sleep um the s also, of course, support, but we've already covered that, so so if that helps anybody, that's really easy to remember, right, yeah, no, that's straightforward enough.
Peter:And indeed, like you said it, with regards to the, the protein snack, it's, it's remarkable how often, even when I go to the shop right, we've been conditioned to so when I go shopping, I go for the entire shop and I buy my fruit, I'm on my veg, I buy all the stuff I need, and then I'm also kind of peckish. Let me look at the rubbish section of the supermarket. I just bought lots of fruit, right, I have, I have a snack, this nature snack, in in my hand, of apples or bananas or something like that. They're there.
Peter:Or indeed, um, when it comes to, when it comes to protein, either get your pepperami or something like that, doesn't really matter too much what it is, but I find I don't function if I haven't eaten well. But that's I mean. When you're talking about regulation, regulating your emotions, you're just not hungry, right, and that is kind of just preventing that snap that almost everybody has when they're sleep deprived and undernourished or underfed. That is a huge, huge thing. You'll be a better person if you eat well yeah, paying attention to your mood, like you know.
Kayce:If you feel like if you just try those three things, you might just feel a little bit better yeah, and and that that is.
Peter:That is huge and, like said, this goes before everything else. Sleep comes before cleaning the house. Yes, Right the old oh, you sleep when your baby sleeps, yes, but I have cleaning to do, no, you don't. Yeah, sleep first and then, if you then have time left to do some cleaning, that's a bonus. It's a bonus almost.
Kayce:Yeah, yeah, put yourself first for once.
Peter:Yeah, in your life Exactly Cool On that happy note. Was there anything else you want to touch on? We covered a lot of ground. I think of probably one or two people. I'm going to get some emails about dogs again, but that's okay.
Kayce:That's okay.
Peter:It is not at all the same. I'm with you, it not at all the same, it is, I'm with you. It is very much the same, it is very similar. I will back you up. Yes, cool, there you go.
Kayce:Send all your emails to casey for the next week just so I don't get them you just forward me all those messages I'll just I'll just send them all along, cool.
Peter:Was there anything else you wanted to touch on I?
Kayce:think I think I talked about just about everything that I wanted to address this was great.
Peter:This was so fun. On that happy note, I will press stop record here, which, as always, is exactly what I did. Thanks so much Kayce for coming on. I mean I love . I is great. I think you know it's like I said in the intro. I know and I know is great. Um, I think you know it's like I said in the intro.
Peter:I know I and I, I know people are fed up listening to me talk about this and listening to, maybe even fed up listening to people talk about mental health and all that type of stuff. But it is so. This is the bit that they don't prepare you for as and and how, no matter how often, how often you, you tell people, um, that are trying to get pregnant that, uh, postpartum mental health issues are it's actually perinatal, any, any mental health issues of brown's, the whole pregnancy period, are remarkably common. You still don't prepare for it because you don't think it will happen to you and you know, or you don't know, how bad it could potentially get. Everybody knows the baby blues and I'm not a big fan of of the term baby blues, but everybody kind of knows that. No, if you know, if I get ppd, I feel a little bit glum. That's not what this is. So the more prep you can do, the better. So thanks very much to casey for coming on. Absolutely I love case. I think I she's great. Obviously, you know I'll link to absolutely everything we discussed and including Casey's website where you can get in touch with her. That is it for me for yet another week.
Peter:Peter at HealthyPostnatalBodycom, if you have any questions, any comments, do the text thing. If you listen to this on your phone and I know some of you will be you can now send us a text by clicking on the link in the podcast description. It should work. It was working a couple of weeks ago.
Peter:I think I don't know this stuff. They send me stuff. People send me. People send me the think I don't know this stuff. They send me stuff. People send me the information. I don't know how stuff comes in anymore. I don't manage that side of things myself as much anymore with the podcast. To be honest, I do the podcast and I do the getting of guests and reading emails and all that sort of stuff, but I have some people now that help me out a little bit. Anyways, thank you very much for coming on to Casey. Thank you guys for listening. I love you guys. You're awesome, peter at healthypostnatalbodycom. So here's a new bit of music, and next week I'm back with yet another amazing guest. You lucky, lucky people, right, you take care of yourself. Here's a new bit of music.
none:Bye now, thank you. Step to the heart, but you won't stop to bleed it. You only come around when you need it. I'm sick of listening to all the reasons, all my reasons. You're not right for me, but here I am saying it's right, there, it's right. You fear In the winter. You're gone, shape-shifter, you're blind. Yeah, you're gone. You're a ghost in the night. You come and visit when the sun comes up. It's like you didn't. Was it a dream? Was it a vision? Too deep in it? Smell it out. Yeah, you got me dizzy Somehow. You make it look so pretty, feel like chiffon. Your words could do me, though I can't breathe. You're not right for me, but here I am. I'm staying, inspired, inspired and knowing. Till you're gone. Shapeshift, till you're gone. Say your shit till you're gone. Yeah, you're gone. Say your shit till you're gone. Yeah, you're gone, you're gone, you're gone, you're gone, you're gone, you're gone, you're gone, you're gone, you're gone, you're gone, you're gone, you're gone, you're going, you're going, you're going.