The Healthy Post Natal Body Podcast
The Healthy Post Natal Body Podcast
Raising Emotionally Healthy Boys interview with Dr Gloria Vanderhorst
Have you ever wondered why, when we all say we want emotionally healthy boys/men, society makes it soo difficult to teach them how to be emotionally healthy and well rounded?
This week I have the pleasure of being joined by Dr Gloria Vanderhorst.
Dr Vanderhorst is a psychologist who has 50 years of experience working with anything from preschoolers to adult and she offers a fascinating insight into the structural issues that families are faced with when trying to raise boys.
We all know the saying "It takes a village to raise a child" but if that village is doing the opposite of what that child needs, then we have a bit of an issue.
So we discuss all these things, and the solutions of course!
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Hey, welcome to the Healthy Postnatal Body Podcast with your postnatal expert, peter Lap. That, as always, would be me. This is a podcast for the 10th of August, 2024, 2025. Even Time flies.
Peter:And today I'm talking to Dr Gloria Van der horst, who is a psychologist, and you're going to love this conversation. We're talking raising boys, as in raising emotionally healthy boys, and why, even though we all say that we want boys have the full range of emotions, that is not really how the way society is set up and how we can change that and the things that need to maybe be changed. Uh, it's a wonderful conversation. It brings up a lot of really, really interesting points that I had never considered how we might need more, say, male primary school teachers and all that type of stuff.
Peter:I absolutely love this and I learned so much from this conversation that I'm sure you're going to love this as well. I am absolutely positive. So, without further ado, here we go. We all want boys and men to have a full range of emotions At least we all say we do. We all want to raise healthy kids, that's for sure. But how do we go about this when a lot of society seemingly still seems to be only comfortable with you know anger and fine as the two emotions that they get from men.
Dr Vanderhorst:Well, I would counter right, we do want to raise happy children. We don't know how to do that. We have never known how to do that and I'll prove it to you. Infants come into the world with brilliant emotional intelligence. That is their only survival mechanism, right? So you pass a baby around the room and it's comfortable and cooing in the arms of Aunt Sally. You pass it to Aunt Tilly and it starts to move around. And you know. You pass it to Aunt Sallyilly and it starts to move around. And you know you pass it to Aunt Sally, it starts crying. Okay, everybody in the room says, oh, the baby must be hungry or the baby needs to be changed.
Dr Vanderhorst:No the baby is an ideal barometer of the emotional state of each one of those people and has just told you that the third one is dangerous, is not safe. Right, we come into the world emotionally brilliant, we can read everything accurately, and then the world starts to lie to us, right? Yep, well, true. World starts to lie to us, right? Yeah, no, troop, you know. And aunt tilly loves you. Aunt tilly wants to spend time with you? No, she does not. She doesn't like children, she wishes you would go away. All right, we get lied to, yeah, over and over again. But the but the worst damage is done to boys. We do not want boys to express certain, what we will call soft or tender feelings. Yeah.
Dr Vanderhorst:We don't want them to cry. I'll give you a real, clear, truthful example. We're visiting friends. I have a three-year-old girl, they have a three-year-old boy. The adults are chatting nicely, the kids are playing in another part of the room very nicely. My daughter keeps his favorite toy and won't return it. All right, the boy tries. Right, he tries to get it back. She will not return it. He gets up, starts crying, whimpering and walking towards his parents to get.
Dr Vanderhorst:Help them to experience the tender end of the range. All right, they are to be stoic or aggressive, they're to be competitive, but they're not to be tender. They can't be interested in dolls. We don't want them to spend time with baby brother cooing and eyeing, and you know, we want them to be aggressive with baby brother and throw baby brother around. So we take what is a normal, natural, healthy, brilliant brain and we cut off half of the capability of that brain and then we expect you to grow up right. To have a relationship, an intimate relationship with someone and suddenly be able to experience all of these tender emotions is totally impossible, absolutely just totally impossible. And that's why our jails are full of men.
Dr Vanderhorst:They're not full of women, they're full of men right, and they're full of men who have been aggressive. We've programmed that. We have to stop doing this immediately. We have to stop doing this, and the only way to do that is to educate new parents, fathers in particular, on how to raise their boys yeah, because you're bringing a very interesting point, and again I'll use a real life example because I know they won't mind me using it.
Peter:But, um, I've known the same people for 10 years and their kids for the past 10 years or so.
Peter:Boy is now 15, the daughter is 17 and if I look in the way in the difference between and these are parents that are slightly younger than myself I'm 50, so they're not millennials but they're still you know the difference in how the dad, especially, raises the son versus how he raises the daughter, if you, how he treats the sun versus how he treats the daughter, it's, it's, it's quite astonishing, um, as in how how big the difference really is. Right, son has to do a sport. Right, and it has to be the man's sport. It can't be.
Peter:No piano, no violin, no, no, he's doing some piano lessons, but she did all the piano stuff and I think, yeah, violin, that type of stuff, drama, all that type of thing he gets to do, he gets to play rugby Right right.
Peter:And you know that type of thing he has to. She gets, you know, the proverbial breakfast in bed when she doesn't want to come out. And he gets out of bed. Right, and I say proverbial, I mean it's actually breakfast in bed, but he gets shouted at that his food will get cold if it doesn't run down the stairs quickly. And when challenged on that, he Jen and this is quite a okay, he's a conservative dad, so to speak, but he's not that far out there on that particular spectrum and he knows what he's doing because we've had conversation about it. And his wife tries to rein him in a lot, of course, right, but it's almost like he can't help it. He's so programmed from his own upbringing that that's how he raises his son, because that for him, is the norm.
Dr Vanderhorst:Well, we've been programmed for centuries, and for a very good reason, right. If you really look at it, you know the caveman could not afford to be tender, gentle, fearful. He has to take his spear, go outside the cave and have something to eat, while the cave woman stays inside and takes care of the children. So there's been a logical reason for training our men to be aggressive, to be brave, to shut down the tender range. At this point in our history we are not sending men or women with spears or guns right. We're pushing buttons and blowing up hundreds and thousands of people.
Dr Vanderhorst:So we have the freedom to re-educate our male population and actually prepare them for what lies ahead after AI. Right, ai is the future and that means I'm not going to go out and fight. I don't have to restrict my emotional range. I'm going to do more relating to other people. I'm going to do more relating to other people. If I'm going to be successful in the next millennia, I have to be relating and understanding other people. So perfect timing to reeducate the population that we have.
Dr Vanderhorst:Brilliance emotionally. We're born with it and we should restore it. It doesn't disappear. That's the other good news. It does not disappear, right, your brain holds on to everything, so that any injury that you've experienced early on, there's some evidence, even in utero, that it can be recalled and if it can be recalled, it can be repaired, it can be understood right, it can be integrated into who you are now and right now. We all have histories that jump into the present and make it difficult for us to do certain things, and that's this father that you're talking about. He's got a history. It jumps into the present and, even though rationally and he might read tons of books, right about emotional development and psychology, development and psychology still, it's the history that is blocking him from using that education to make a change in parenting.
Peter:Okay, so that sounds very sensible. So that leads obviously to the follow-up question how do we get rid of that history or deal with that history or work through that in a way that allows us to then raise healthier, especially boys? But justological Association published a book in the 70s.
Dr Vanderhorst:I believe, which is about two and a half inches thick, all research on the development of boys, that wonderful research on the development of boys and completely ignored for 50 years.
Dr Vanderhorst:Completely ignored for 30 years, but it kept a lot of people employed.
Dr Vanderhorst:And so I think we are at a point that we've been kind of softened up, if you will right, because this research has been out there and repeated and repeated and repeated and originally the research was done by men and now there's a good mix of men and women researchers that when the researcher transfers to female, there's a higher percentage, higher probability that change can take place. Sure, yeah, right, I don't know if that makes sense to you, but it makes sense to me that now we have both men and women educated about how we raise our boys and the change that should take place, and so when you've got both adults happening to send out the same message, you increase the probability that people are going to listen to it. Going to listen to it. Yeah, now I'm in the process of publishing a book that I hope dads will listen to, because it's geared at telling and showing the dad how to make that shift, to raise a boy that still has access to the full range of stealing states and prepare them for, you know, what comes after AI.
Peter:Because relationship things will increase. Yeah, no, that's a good point. I think that's something that you know. I'm not a big fan of what we're currently doing with AI and all that sort of stuff, but it seems inevitable, right, that it'll play a huge part in our lives.
Peter:And I think what you're talking about makes sense with regards to we need to build a new skill set, right, if we want to, let's say, remain being useful in the future, that's right as men, right, that's right, being useful in the future as men, right. Otherwise, and I suppose this ties in a little bit with what we're seeing now with Andrew Tate's of this world and all that, the whole manosphere and I'm not sure whether you watched adolescence, you probably heard about it. But if the place of the man or the boy becomes more uncertain in the world and people, people are looking for purpose and they don't know how to find it, where to find it, and I suppose guys like the rogans and the tates and all that sort of stuff are going to grab more of a hold because they'll have an easier audience, or an easier prey, almost, if you will. So it seems to make sense that developing that skill set is much more important now than it ever has been.
Dr Vanderhorst:I think it definitely is right. If we look at the horizon, I think people well people already have more free time in this generation than they did in the previous generation. It's going to keep moving in that direction. That we have more free time means interactive time yeah, right time that we do engage other people, and that time and expanding the engagement with others means everybody needs to come with a full set of emotions you can't do with a half a deck. Right, we're going to play a game right.
Dr Vanderhorst:If one of you comes with a full deck of cards and the other comes with a half deck of cards, it is not going to be fun. No, that's right, we're not going to have a good game. So everybody needs to come with the full deck of cards, with the full range of emotional understanding and expression. Then you can do tons of things right. You can have a great time, but you can also be very creative. Our emotions are the base of being creative, so I can invent things that I would not have thought of if I didn't have access to that softer range of feeling states.
Peter:Yeah, that way we can get boys away from to quote one of my client's kids becoming the evil overlord of the empire, which is generally he's seven years old, right, and? I either pick Skywalker or Darth Vader, and he's very much in the Vader camp at the moment, but it's basically that. Yeah, hopefully he'll do something else, that's right. I'm just, in the meantime, I'm trying to stay on his good side so that I'm okay, right, you're not smashed, boxed up such an outer space.
Peter:Yes, exactly, but it seems to make sense. So how do we then because I suppose what you're reading, because it's different, for I suppose expecting parents to read a book and say, okay, I'm going to be working on this I find that expecting parents are much more open to working on themselves than, say, someone who has a 10-year-old. That's right. So how do you reach someone? So I don't like writing off generations of people, but listeners of mine will know that I regularly do when I regularly say middle-aged white guys like myself, right, I always put that caveat in, like myself.
Peter:Just just, it's easy if you just write them off for the next 30 years, just say, ah, pete's generation will die out in the next 30 years. Hopefully we can reach some of them, but not all of them. And we'll start with the younger, we'll focus on the younger generation that still has 50, 60, 70 years left. But how do you, how do you reach somebody when you say, okay, you're going to work on yourself now, right, you have a kid coming, you have some historic stuff that you probably need to work through and to break through and all that sort of thing. So how do you? Where do you start? As a parent, as a dad, especially with, but even as a mom raising boys, because the patriarchy is everywhere, right, let's put it that way.
Dr Vanderhorst:All right, I think first you have to understand that the main way that the boy's emotion gets limited is interaction with the mother. Right. That may be shocking, but it's true right.
Dr Vanderhorst:Right, yeah, boys have a broader range of emotional expression from birth, right. So they go higher in terms of excitement and they go lower in terms of disappointment, irritation, right, yeah. Right, they have a broader range and women are not an infant. When he's higher or lower on the emotional scale, they withdraw their affection. They don't do it intentionally, they don't know that they're doing it. So one thing is you know, let's just open up that reality. And thanks to all the research about boys and mothers and watching infants, we know that mothers do this. So educating them on what to do with the broader range of a boy will be very important, because we do what is natural for us.
Dr Vanderhorst:Right, I'm familiar with the girl's range of emotion. I want to stay in that ballpark and now I have to expand myself and realize that when the boy gets more excited than I'm comfortable with, more irritated than I'm comfortable with, I need to attend to that, not withdraw right, not go quiet. But I really need to see if I can't stretch myself to go high with him and get just as excited and wild and go comforting when he's down here on the really out-of negative end of the feeling. So if I can do that, if I can educate mothers first, it's all right to travel with this boy as he moves along the range and then educate fathers that tenderness in their toddler it's welcome, it has to be welcomed, or the toddler is going to abandon that end of the range and so you, you don't have to here.
Dr Vanderhorst:Here's the example, right? So you're at the shopping mall and the kids are playing and a little girl gets hurt. She runs up to her parents, she gets picked up and asked what happened. Little boy gets hurt. He runs up to his parents and he gets asked what happened. If he gets a good enough response he'll get picked up and comforted. We could just make that simple change. Yeah Right, both boys and girls, if they come up to you in distress should get physical comfort, mm-hmm. Yeah, all right, that's where we start.
Dr Vanderhorst:First we should, you know, make them safe, yeah, and then, after they're safe, we shouldire what's going on, what happened, and, you know, then help them resolve whatever they've experienced. It's the acceptance of emotion in boys that will be powerful, right? So, as I've said, mothers don't accept a higher range or a lower range. Mothers and fathers together must ask their child, if it's a boy, to justify the need for comfort. If we just abandon those two things, really, if we just abandon those two, nothing else it would make a huge difference in the emotional range that a boy holds on to yeah, that's a good, that's a good point.
Peter:So, so, especially with regards to the, to the, the wider range that that that boys have have. So is it a case of of because you're not, because you're deliberately not looking to limit the range? So and I'll relate this to my dogs, because I am like that and always get a lot of emails from people saying don't compare my kids to dogs, but it's it. We talk a lot about puppy training and all that type of stuff in relations to the kids, because there's an overlap there. So I like my dog to get excited, but not too excited.
Peter:Um, so what we do when I see my dog or one of my dogs getting a little bit, a little bit too excited, I rein it in a little bit just by being nice and and addressing it there, rather than waiting until she say at, say, at a 10. And then we've lost all control, right, and then we have to deal with that particular situation. But are we looking to do, if you're looking to have boys experience their full range more than, say, say, the mother is comfortable with, should she intervene earlier or be more accepting when it goes to, say, an eight or a nine on a scale of 10?
Dr Vanderhorst:Yeah, so the reality now is that mother does intervene early. Yeah, I'd like mother to expand her range, so she's intervened later on. Right, but not. I don't want my infant going apoplectic.
Peter:No, of course.
Dr Vanderhorst:Yeah, so I do need to provide comfort, but I need to settle my own body so that my own body says you are safe. I realize you're going out of control now, but you are safe. So in relationship to your dog, right, right, your dog starts to escalate. If you were to escalate as well, yeah, you'd be, yeah yeah right, it would be a disaster so I want mother to be able to stay in touch that escalating emotion and not panic herself that, oh, I can't control this.
Peter:To do this this is crazy.
Dr Vanderhorst:My kid's a nut right and out of control. But okay, this is normal, he has this range. I'm just going to calm myself, take some breaths, assure him that life is okay and slowly bring that feeling state back down so that the distress of the infant gets comforted, but not denied, mm hmm, but not denied. There's a difference between comforting and staying in touch with. Ok, I get it, you're a wild person right now, and I'm not afraid of you being a wild person. I'm here to help you come back into a more satisfying range.
Peter:Yeah, that makes complete sense, Because we do talk about that a lot. Right Again, if somebody at the door, someone rings the doorbell, my dogs go nuts. If I don't shout at them to stop shouting. They just think we're all shouting at the door.
Peter:It would just get louder, they would just go ah he's joining in, we're doing the right thing here, so that makes sense. Send it, send to yourself and have that calm energy so that everybody kind of like what you were talking about with the baby everybody realizes, everybody picks up on the energy and then actually everything's all right, yeah, right, okay, we're shouting a bit here because we're excited about life, but we're not terrified of life, right, so to speak?
Dr Vanderhorst:Right, yeah, so you're going to comfort the dogs when they're at the door right Barking loudly and reassure them that you know this is not dangerous. Yeah. They can calm down and let you open the door or respond.
Peter:Yeah, and everybody's happy, right, Everybody's happy. That makes complete sense. So how do we Okay, so we start with making those two changes how do we then deal with society being the way that it is? And because I'm thinking what you're talking about now, a lot of teachers and again I might get emails about this calling me an idiot, but I'm thinking a lot of teachers don't necessarily know this stuff no, they don't.
Dr Vanderhorst:They don't realize it, but my practice in psychology started with evaluating preschool boys, because preschools are run by women.
Dr Vanderhorst:Yeah, the head of the preschool is a woman, the teacher is a woman and they're uncomfortable with this broader range of emotional expression from the boys in the room. So they'll identify the boy as I must be having some kind of a problem. Yeah, the trouble, because he gets overexcited or, and so I, the teacher, needs comfort. So you send the boy to be evaluated. There must be something wrong with him. He's probably got attention deficit, maybe he's highly anxious. Well, no, he's being a boy, right?
Peter:yeah, oh yeah. No, without wanting to open a particular can of worms, uh, but just just a little one. Do you think that a lot of the diagnoses with regards to attention deficit type stuff that we had, at least for a while? I think people are more clued up on it now, and I'll ignore all girls with neurodivergent issues, because we know they get diagnosed when they're in their 40s and 50s, right during the menopause, that's much later.
Dr Vanderhorst:We're doing much better with that. They now get diagnosed more as high schoolers All right, okay, so that's, we're doing better. There's improvement. Yeah, or college, sometimes college.
Peter:We'll have to take the win where it is. It always used to be perimenopausal type. Oh, by the way, you go for for for women, but do you think there was a period where there was almost an over diagnosis of add then, but where the situation was more a and I hate this phrase now because it's completely tainted but a boys being boys- type.
Dr Vanderhorst:There's an element of truth to that for sure, right, and it was the mismatch between who's monitoring these children in the course of the day. And if preschools were run by men, there would have been much more tolerance of the expressiveness and the loudness and the movement of three and four year old boys. So, yes, I think there is an element of truth that there was an overdiagnosis, but I also think that this attention deficit called brain is actually an advance for humanity. All right.
Dr Vanderhorst:This person can multitask. This person can hold on to three, four different things simultaneously. This person can go zigzagging rather than in a straight line. And that's really, if you look at the inventions in the world right the computer, the internet, the tele, all of this, all of this man have been diagnosed with attention deficit.
Peter:Oh yeah, I'll be stunned if there were any great inventions done by neurotypical people, right? Because just the whole point of being neurotypical is like you stay in the box, right, Stay in the box. Which is why there's no creative thought coming out of my head. But some of my friends are like, yeah, you know, I can see it.
Dr Vanderhorst:We have to accept this brain. I believe this brain is in advance.
Peter:No, no, that makes complete sense. I just wondered just because it popped, it kind of popped into my head. So obviously, so we have to, because societal pressure is quite a bugger, especially on kids and all that type of stuff, right, and there's a huge element of our educational system. That is very much and I don't want to go too far down a particular conspiracy rabbit hole that we see but it's very much about conforming to the norm, right, about just, you know, if you could sit here all day and be quiet, that'd be amazing, right, that would just be lovely. Not really, no, not really. But it's nicer for the school, right, if you're here between nine and three, be nice and quiet, and then you play sports and you get it all out of your system. We have to then sort of find a way to deal with all that type of stuff in the education system and then it carries through to university and all that type of stuff, right, right?
Dr Vanderhorst:And there are schools out there that have found a way right that are more open concept that you know have trees in the room so boys can climb trees and read a book up in a tree and not have to sit in a chair. These things are happening and, you're right, we do need to redesign education and we also know that boys lag behind girls. So the co-ed education should actually be changed, particularly in the early elementary range, right, so that girls can take off early the way they do and boys can need to explore and test out and they're going to take off in a later developmental stage.
Peter:Okay, so are you then talking? Different age classes would be ideal. Are you just saying no, they should have different activities throughout the day.
Dr Vanderhorst:Yeah, I think, different activities. I think I'm not in isolation, not in all frozen and all.
Peter:Yeah, sure, yeah, you still need to interact.
Dr Vanderhorst:Don't have real good interactive purposes, projects that have value to them, but that the difference leaves boys at a disadvantage, right? And? And still the majority of elementary school teachers are female, not, and that complicates life as well. We need to increase the number of male teachers in kindergarten and elementary range, and we also need to give different expectations, different activities, different processes to the different sexes, because they're not traveling in parallel, right, they're moving at different speeds, so we should meet them.
Peter:So is that more like a Montessori type approach, more individualized towards the child? I'm not saying just Montessori, but just more.
Dr Vanderhorst:No, it's very similar to that. Let's meet the child where the child is and give them opportunities to move at the pace that they move at, and then they'll be much more successful in the long run.
Peter:And I suppose the whole AI thing will obviously. Hopefully, when we do all get replaced by robots, hopefully the education system should change at that point anyways, rather than just preparing us for new jobs that have no robotic equivalent, we'll all become plumbers or electricians or God knows what no robotic equivalent we'll all become plumbers or electricians or god knows what. Um, but it's. It's because what I see now a lot in the in, what I hear a lot from and and what I see in private schools is, um, rather than kids working with each other, and when you're talking about boys needing not just a different pace, but you still need to learn how to communicate with girls, and where girls are and how different sexes have different ways of responding, and all that type of stuff, right, we need to. What we currently seem to be doing is implementing a lot of technology that actually removes cooperation. We're very iPad-centered, almost right, I have my iPad in front of me and I can chat to you.
Dr Vanderhorst:Or the phone. Right Any of these devices, you will find people children, teenagers sitting next to each other typing on their phones. Yeah, and you ask who are you talking? To the person sitting right next to them. Yeah, right.
Dr Vanderhorst:They're not facing them, they are not talking out loud to them, they're typing to them sitting right next to them. Now we know that over 90% of communication is nonverbal. Yeah, all right, they are missing. All of those cues. All right, all of those cues. So we're doing this whole generation an incredible disservice when we use phones in that way. I tell a family, when the kids come in from school, lock the phones in a drawer, just get rid of it. Yeah, just get rid of it, at least for a few hours. So you're actually interacting with another human being. You're not texting mom from upstairs and mom responding on her phone from downstairs. It's mind-blowing that you would eliminate all of the valuable cues your face, your body, your tone of voice that make up the majority of how we relate to each other. In communication, we're sterilized.
Peter:in communication, we don't even know it. Yeah, because, especially when, because all this fundamentally what you're talking about, from breaks breaks down into communication, right, dealing with how boys communicate and and and how, how girls communicate and how we can all make that better and overall. But if, as my wife sneezed in the background, no to myself at 2142, I'll need to edit that bit out. Okay, so basically it boils down to learning how to work together and be better humans together, better right that's ai gives you that opportunity.
Dr Vanderhorst:All right, the the very fact that ai can take over lots of things that I might be doing now gives me much more opportunity for interaction with others as long as we don't replace it with interaction with robots.
Peter:Right, Right If.
Dr Vanderhorst:I don't take advantage of that, then we're doomed.
Peter:And the reason I bring that up is because for seven, eight years, I think, since iPhones became really popular, social media became really a thing. We were almost told that the kids are still connecting, but they're connecting differently. Now. It's a new way of communicating. It's a new community, and I watched a thing yesterday where someone very much explained that no, the internet is not community, that is just nonsense. That's stuff we've been told by Mark Zuckerberg because he makes money from it. But fundamentally, the internet is not community. That is just nonsense. That's stuff we've been told by Mark Zuckerberg because he makes money from it. But fundamentally, the internet is not community. It's just it's a whole bunch of nothing. It's much more destructive than building.
Dr Vanderhorst:Right, it is more destructive, right, because I said, you lose 90% of the information about connection, so you're not really making connection. You're eliminating your capability to connect. Yeah.
Peter:It's a skill, isn't it, and a lot of people? If you don't, as in communicating with others is a skill, and if you don't build up the skill, then we're going to just be kind of stuck where we are, or actually, you know, if you don't move forward, you move backwards, right?
Dr Vanderhorst:Yeah, you're definitely right.
Peter:It's that type of thing, and I think that's why it makes sense when you're saying that what your approach is, that makes sense to me, that what your approach is that makes sense to me, that this is a good time to help kids grow, rather than us retreating into some sort of weird black mirror style environment Absolutely Cool. Well, we've covered quite a bit of ground. Was there anything else you wanted to touch on?
Dr Vanderhorst:I think we have touched on everything that had great value and I've enjoyed the conversation. Well, we thank you very much.
Peter:That was phenomenal. So, on that happy note, I will press stop record here, and press stop record is exactly what I did. Thanks very much to Dr Vannerhorst for coming on. I absolutely loved her. I will obviously link to everything we discussed in the podcast description and her website and all that type of stuff.
Peter:You know, rules are rules, right, if you have a PhD in a relevant field and you're not just selling nonsense people don't need, of course, you're always welcome onto the podcast. The endems are the rules. If you've done the effort, if you've put the effort into studying, I am always delighted to hear from you, peter, at HealthyPostnatalBodycom. The same goes for if you have anyone that you're like. Oh, if you're listening to this thing, hey, I'd like to hear from X, y, z, just name, just send me an email with the person and I will see if I can get them onto the podcast. If you have any comments or questions, reach out right as the song goes um and I will be there, and I will also be here next week with a new episode from the vault. But first here's a new bit of music. You, you have a great week, take care.
Speaker 4:Bye now. I would have never walked away from this. When you were walking in the summer rain, I saw you singing with that song again Before the night, when we looked the same. You could have asked me to do anything. Holding you, holding me in the moonlight. I guess it's not what you had in mind. Look around now. I see it so clearly. I can't make you believe. I forgot how to reign it in. I know exactly what to say to this. If you would talk like you always did, I would never walk away. Look around now. I see it so clearly. I can't make you believe. Can't make you believe. Holding you, holding me in the moonlight. I guess it's not what you had in mind. Look around now. I see it so clearly. I can't make you believe. Can't make you believe.