The Healthy Post Natal Body Podcast
The Healthy Post Natal Body Podcast
Leaving Is Just The Start. How survivors rebuild safety, health and financial independence. With Cathlene Miner
Tehis week I am absolutely over the moon to be joined by Cathlene Miner.
Cathlene is a bestselling author, and the founder of Hopefull Handbags Global Non-Profit (HHG), a worldwide organization empowering survivors of domestic abuse and their children toward safety, health, wellness, and long-term financial stability.
Cathlene founded Hopefull Handbags Global Non-Profit (HHG) in 2017, which began as a single act of kindness filling handbags with essentials to restore dignity and hope to survivors of domestic abuse.
Under her leadership, HHG has grown into a thriving international nonprofit and sustainable business model operating in six countries: the United States, Kenya, Northern Ireland, Ireland, the United Kingdom, and the Caribbean.
We are talking about everything to do with abusive relationships, Cathleen tells her story and talks about her own, and her grandmother's experience. What made her start Hopeful Handbags, the wonderful work that they do etc.
And, most importantly, she talks about how getting out of a domestic abuse situation is about MUCH more than "just leaving". Staying out requires work, it requires a plan, it requires help and support and guidance.
And for everyone the journey, and the assistance required will be different.
This is where Hopeful Handbags is different from some other organisations.
This is an episode you definitely don't want to miss.
You can find Cathlene everywhere online;
Her website, where you can find out more about all the amazing things she does (including her books)
Just a reminder that HPNB only has 5 billing cycles!
So this means that you not only get 3 months FREE access, no obligation!
BUT, if you decide you want to do the rest of the program, after only 5 months of paying $10/£8 a month you now get FREE LIFE TIME ACCESS!
This means you can sign up after your first child, use the program and recover and then still have access after giving birth to child 2 and 3!
None of this "pay X amount a year" nonsense, once you've paid..you've paid!
This makes HPNB not just the most efficient and complete post-partum recovery program, it's also BY FAR the best value.
Remember to follow us on Instagram and Facebook for the competitions, wisdom and cute videos. And, of course, you can always find us on our YouTube channel if you like your podcast in video form :)
Visit healthypostnatalbody.com and get 3 months completely FREE access. No sales, no commitment, no BS.
Email peter@healthypostnatalbody.com if you have any questions or comments
If you could rate the podcast on your favourite platform (especially Apple) that would be a big help.
Playing us out "I love it" by Clancie
Hey, welcome to the Healthy Postnatal Body Podcast with your Postnatal Expert Peter Lap. That, as always, would be me. This is the podcast for the 14th of December 2025. Yes, indeed. Indeed it is. And I'm very lucky. I'm bringing you a very special interview that I did with Cathleen Miner, who is uh the founder of Hopeful Handbugs Global. Uh she's like a non-profit organization, worldwide organization. And they, as uh as the job description says, empower survivors of domestic abuse and their children towards safety, health, wellness, and long-term financial stability. And we're having a we had an amazing conversation where we talk about how people get out of domestic, uh out of abusive relationships and what they actually require. So when you find yourself stuck in one, what how you can get out of it, the help people need that is much more than just providing them a home or a bit of money and all that sort of stuff, but that they need guidance for a long-term future. And Cathleen is an amazing woman. You're gonna love this conversation. So without further ado, here we go. So tell me about uh Hopeful Handbags.
Speaker 4:Okay, well, Hopeful Handbags is an organization that started in 2017. I started it here in Florida in the US. Uh, since then, we've grown globally. And we can talk a little bit about that. But what we do is we start with the base of handbags, which we donate to survivors of domestic abuse to raise hope and to open up the conversation within communities and businesses and organizations.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 4:But then from there, we do so much, right? Because after someone comes forward needing assistance for themselves and their children, then we've got to work on the safety, the health, the wellness, and the long-term financial stability, which every situation is unique. So you name it, we've probably done it, or we will end up doing it because every situation, you know, where are they in that process? And all of that. So that's kind of a just in a quick nutshell about what hopeful handbags is. Um, and we love to get businesses involved because we need to open up that conversation.
Speaker:So, so, so what is the what is kind of like the the the the the point of of hopeful handbags? What's the message behind it? What are you actually trying, what are you actually achieving, so to speak?
Speaker 4:Okay. Uh two things. One is awareness to open up the conversation so that if somebody is in an unsafe situation, they realize that they're in an unsafe situation. Um, one thing that you'll notice on our website and everything that we do is we say domestic abuse. And we do that because when people hear the word violence, we don't use the word violence.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 4:When we hear the word violence, the first thing people think of typically is always physical violence, contact of some sort. But that's not always the way that abuse goes, right? There's many kinds of abuse. So there's that. But the other point is what our mission is is to get all survivors of domestic abuse and their children to safety number one, health, wellness, and long-term financial stability. What that means then is that we are working one-on-one with survivors and their children to get them through that point. Now, this can take a year and a half, it can take two years. I mean, we have some but some people that they're now independent, they're on their own, they're doing their thing, but they still keep in contact with us, right? We're we're their friends now. And they, you know, it's kind of like we're part of their family. They're sending us pictures of their kids and they want advice on something. And so that's really what so there's the message, but then there's also the we've got to make this work and get things done.
Speaker:Yeah, because because what kind of things are people because I suppose it's an interesting one, right? Because it's it's a subject that uh we see on portrayed on television a lot. Um it's in the news a lot, um, or at least in in the UK, it's in the news a lot, but it's not discussed much.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker 4:You're right. And I think there's a couple of reasons for that. Um, number, well, there's so many reasons for that. So, and I'll just kind of go back to why I started this and you know, kind of give you kind of answer that question there. So I started this because my mom grew up in a very abusive home. And my mom had me when she was 15, my dad was 17, they're still together. They are the most amazing people. But we lived across the street from my grandparents when I was little. And my mom, who's in the middle age-wise in her family, had siblings that were older than her and siblings that were mine and my sister's age. So as I got a little bit older, I realized why we lived there. We lived there so that my mom could help take care of the kids that were still at home.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay.
Speaker 4:When the chaos would break out across the street, her siblings would come running over. And I just remember us all standing there at the chain link fence. And I at that point thought, you know, this isn't normal. Something's not right over there because I don't live that way across the street. There's not screaming, there's not yelling, people aren't having bruises, people, you know, I mean, all this stuff is not happening. So it stuck with me. And I wanted to know why this happened and why do people stay? I did not understand why my grandmother stayed. Still to this day. I mean, I understand a little bit more of it, but I had my, you know, and we'll never know because my grandmother passed away over 35 years ago from a head injury, you know, a brain injury. You can only get hit times. And out in 2017, I went and got certified, maybe it was 2016, got certified to be a domestic abuse advocate. I raised my four kids, and I thought, why it? I don't still understand this. And the first thing I found out was that it's about power and control. So, going back to what question you asked is it's not talked about much because on the abuser side, it's about power and control of that person, right? So behind the scenes, that's what they're doing. And the survivor is typically, whether whether it be, you know, physical abuse or any other kind of abuse, they are literally and figuratively being being beaten down about their self-perception and what they think about themselves. And so that's why it's not talked about because typically in a survivor is what we call them. We don't call them victims. That's another thing we don't do. We call them a survivor, and hopefully they all survive. However, we've unfortunately run across many cases where they have not come out alive. Of course. And um, that's another reason why we do what we do. But the other thing is you've got the survivor who typically their friends and family can see what's going on. They know something's not normal, too. They know something's not right. And the family andor friends has tried to bring it up to them. This is the typical way it goes, and um, they don't want to leave. They don't want to leave because this person has convinced them that they are the only ones for them, or it could be the other part of that and why it's not talked about is they're being threatened. Some of them are being threatened, not only threatened for their own lives, but for their kids' lives. You know, you leave, this is what I'm going to do. Or, or you leave, this is what I'm going to tell other people. So, in answer to your question, this is why it's not talked about much because there's so much that's going on behind the scenes, you know. And my grandfather, as he got later on in his life, realized what he did was wrong, and you know, he stopped drinking and all that. But I will tell you, when my grandfather was abusing everyone, when he stepped out of that house, and this is what we see, this is the way it is. That person is like the pillar of the community. Like they walk out and they they're dressed and they're just so nice to everybody. And you're hearing them like, I can't even believe this is the same person that was just inside. So that's why it's not talked about much. Because also the survivor is sitting there thinking, you know, nobody's gonna believe me. Nobody's gonna believe me. Um, and I do have to say there's so much we can talk about, but and it's not always men that are abusive. I'm gonna say typically it is, statistically, it is. Um, we do help men and women, however, we really help more women because it's the women that come forward, and obviously trader for women um that that are being abused, and some of that's has to do with just women being women, right? And our and our size and all of that kind of stuff. But there are definitely men that are in these positions as well, and it's not always physical, right? It's the mental abuse, it's the isolation, things like that.
Speaker:Yeah, because because because that's an interesting point. Because I and I discussed before you came on when when when I was uh checking out your website and all that sort of stuff, you know. For anybody listening, every now and again I pay attention to what I do, and and I do a teeny tiny bit of research. And I spoke to spoke to one or two people, uh, men. Yeah, from love, and and and it's it's interesting because men my age, 50 years old, right? We were raised with the you don't hit a woman, right? That is fundamentally, and I know not everybody listens to that, and like Bill Burr says, they should be buried underneath the prison. But fundamentally, we get taught as men, we get taught that that is what abuse looks like. Yeah, right. You don't hit a woman, anything else? That's that's uh that's uh you just don't hit a woman.
Speaker 4:So it's a discussion, yeah.
Speaker:Yeah, kind of it or at least that's kind of what it implies. I'm not saying that my dad said it was okay to to don be domineering and controlling and all that type of stuff, but you know, it it kind of comes with the man is head of the household, but he can't hit a woman. That is how a lot of guys my age especially have been raised, and I'm thinking younger as well, because you know the patriarchy proudly lives on, and therefore that is that tends to be how we raise boys. Yeah, we don't discuss the control element of it all all that much at all when it comes to um domestic abuse. Um especially amongst men, we don't can we don't discuss that much at all. And you could probably correct me correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that a much wider problem than say actual domestic violence as in the actual beating is isn't isn't isn't it isn't the control number much more common?
Speaker 4:Um I'm not saying one is a bigger problem than the other, but it probably is, it's probably not brought forward as much, sure, but then there's that that hat that medium because you know I'm I'm in my 50s, so we're the same age, you know, and I know even I have two boys and two girls, and I taught my boys the same thing. Then again, I also know girls can be mean, so I taught my girls you also respect guys, right? Um but you know, we think about the traditional family, you're right, the man being the head of the household, and then you know what you can go on and on about that and what people think about that whole thing. But I still think most women, including myself, um, I still think of it that way. I mean, I I don't have a problem with a man being a head of the household and having a mom being able to stay at home with their kids or two people working and and and kind of splitting the stuff. But you're right, that it's the no matter even if you're that bread main breadwinner, that doesn't mean you are in control of the whole thing. And I think that that's where the lines might get blurred sometimes. Like you said, what may have not been taught as a as a child, you know, with a with boys, yeah. Um but yet it all the women I know still would like for a man to I say take care of them, but I mean like open the doors for them, you know. Um be polite, pull out the chair, you know, things like that, which is obviously opposite of being controlling, it's just being yeah, being being like off service too.
Speaker:That's that's more like being chivalrous, so to speak.
Speaker 4:Correct, yes, you're right. And I think that's sometimes where the lines could get blurred, you know. Okay, I'm the I'm the head of the household, so I'm in control.
Speaker:Yeah, and and and and and and when I say the the head of the household, that is or the main breadwinner. That that was how my generation definitely definitely it was it was just portrayed that way. And even and and you find this now with or I see this now with a lot of my a lot of my clients, a lot of my friends, even in and and this is the old, you see it everywhere online as well. Is the old okay now? We have two income households where everybody's everybody has a job, mainly because everybody needs to have a job now, otherwise you can't afford to pay the bills anymore. But the woman still takes on the majority of the mental load and all the housework and and and all that type of stuff, right? So it hasn't really it hasn't really leveled out from that perspective. But it's it's I'm just wondering if part of that discussion that we need to have around domestic uh domestic abuse should be when we're raising our kids should be much closer to the discussion about respecting people's boundaries and respecting people as individuals and you know no means no basically means is is used with regards to one thing, usually that's homosexual violence. But it's I don't see it a lot and uh in in our kids' educations and in the way people raise raise children, that respecting boundaries is uh is as much of a thing as it maybe should be. Um and and I can't help but feel that that's where a lot of our problems come from. That if if I get if if if if someone says I feel uncomfortable doing this, well I want you to do it anyways, and not just with regard that's with regards to absolutely everything, right? Um finances and all that stuff, because a lot of a lot of abuse, I'm guessing, starts with financial abuse, right? Or at least starts with financial control.
Speaker 4:You know what most of abuse starts with is isolation.
Speaker:Yeah, sure.
Speaker 4:Isolation, and then it just depends on what comes after that, dependent upon the relationship, you know, the situation that they're in. But you know, I agree. I think that yes, boundaries are one thing, um, healthy relationships is another. I mean, based on healthy relationships, which in my mind and in just what I see is that we are each individual people, right? And the core of us is what we think about ourselves. And honestly, that's what we work on. I have a book about it. This is what we work on with every one of our survivors and kids, because going into a relationship, and this is where a lot of the control comes in and the boundaries get blurred as well. Is okay, well, I'm not a this, I feel like I have a void, or I'm not a very happy person inside. So I expect that other person to fill that void for me and make me feel better. And so they're they're looking for not so people are then not being treated as individual people and their dreams coming together. They're thinking, okay, well, I have you've got to satisfy this for me because without you, I'm not a complete person. And that is where even in abuse of, you know, physical, um, psychological abuse and emotional abuse, that is where that comes in a lot. Because it's really, I mean, you know, like they say, if things aren't going right in your life, look in the mirror first.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:And that is so true. And that's something that probably in my late 20s, I started to realize. And that's when I started working. I mean, I started working on self-perception for myself when I was in my early 20s. But the thing is, though, is that then when that person, because nobody's ever going to fill you up, like they're gonna enhance your life. Yes, that's what they should do. I know I'm telling you what you know because you're nodding your head, but most people don't you know people that they're just like, oh my god, I can't live without that person, and I need to somebody, and I need to, and I'm always what I always tell them is until you are happy with yourself, and I know that's an odd thing, but I'm talking really feeling good about yourself. Nobody that you bring in is going to enhance your life, they're going to be filling some sort of a void. And the reason why we end up talking about this so much, as you can imagine, is people are getting out of these domestic as out of these abusive situations, and then when they jump right into another one, I'm just like, oh no. Like well, we're not there yet. Like, and that's the kind of stuff that we do at Hopeful Handbags. Like, we have those real conversations, like you're not ready for this yet, unless you want to repeat something, and I'm not saying it's gonna be the exact thing, but you're still not gonna be happy in the end. You're not gonna be doing yourself any justice.
Speaker:No, see, that and and that is that is such a huge point because I think a lot of us, as in people in general, yeah, um, we are kind of taught by society that we are not complete until we're in a relationship, right? That is that is kind of how it goes, and and and and for a lot of uh my friends, at least, and I I see this with men all the time, and I like I said, I'm 50, half of my friends are divorced because you know I'm 50, and how and they all and it always tends to go the same way, and this is this is an embarrassing thing for males, but they jump straight into a new relationship, yeah. Almost almost immediately because they basically, as I said to one of my friends, yeah, you just want your mom to come live with you, right? It's fundamentally it's it's it's it's that embarrassing level of of of needing someone to take care of you, um and and and it's like you said, it's filling a hole, and uh um but it's as one of my female friends always used to say, most men don't actually like women that much, as in as in they they they need them, they want them to do the washing, but they don't really care the washing and the cooking and that type of stuff, or just to be there, but they but you can almost replace the person they're living with with another person, and they'd actually be completely okay with the change. Do you know what I mean? There's very I do know what you mean.
Speaker 4:I do know what you mean because I see it a lot, but I but I also know on the other side of that, there are, I mean, I have some amazing men that I know and ones in my life, including my dad, right? Who does those things and and who you know what I mean? Like who wants to I don't mean doing stuff, but yeah, like taking on them just as much as the responsibility, meaning that throughout the years, like if my mom was staying home and my dad was the one working, yes, my mom was the one making meals because she was home. I mean, I was staying home for over 20 years. I know how this goes, but um, but but in saying that, I think when that kind of stuff happens, there's more of an emotional connection that somebody couldn't just replace somebody else. Do you see what I'm saying? But but in some instances it probably could, but then let's go to the women's side because I see I see it where they're like, and you probably see it in your country just like I do in mine, and I'm not gonna I'm gonna tell you I do roll my eyes sometimes. Because I'm like, then they're like, I don't need a man, I don't need this, I don't need anybody to take care of me. And you know what? That's fine, you know, do whatever you want to do. But the bottom line is let's be real. If somebody came along and they were just they enhanced your life, you would enjoy that, even if they did in some ways take care of you, whatever that is to you, right? Maybe it is making dinner, maybe it is you don't have to work as much, maybe it is they open the door. I mean, do you know what I'm saying? But they get so into that they're like, yeah, and I'm telling you, for those, those, I mean, I know I'm a woman saying this, but I would because I have two boys, I'd be like, run, like, do not go. That is not gonna work long term, you're not gonna be happy.
Speaker:Yeah, and then that kind of comes back to the what you were saying earlier, that that still comes from a what I find with a lot of again, fiercely independent men as well, to be honest. Yeah, they're they're they're just because they're also just not necessarily emotional, emotionally well-equipped human beings. They just put a wall up because it's much easier, in the same way that it's much easier for me to only deal with my dogs than it is with other people, right? People are difficult and and and and and therefore it's it's sometimes tempting to go, nah, screw you guys. I don't need anyone, I can do it all, I make my own money, I do my own dishes. So but you that I think that's different from what you were talking about, someone who is let's say an emotionally whole person, or at least relatively healthy um that way, who is then ready to move into especially post-abuse, I suppose, uh, into a new relationship when they are actually genuinely ready. So, how do you find the the journey goes for for for most people coming to you and coming to Hopeful Houndbikes? Where where do they where does the journey really begin for them?
Speaker 4:Okay, well, and that's different for every situation. So um sometimes people will come to us and they're still in an abusive relationship. Of course, that's gonna look a lot different than when somebody comes to us that is out of that relationship, maybe either living on their own or staying with friends and family or getting out of a shelter. But for instance, if somebody is still in an abusive situation, then it's a lot of talking. It's a lot of talking, and it is a lot of um we come up with safety plans because one of the most dangerous times for people to leave an abusive situation, or most dangerous times is when they leave. Sure. And um, and unfortunately, that's when uh people lose their lives. And I mean, it happens after that too, because of stalking and things like that. But so we approach it with okay, safety is always number one. And we have we have two programs, it's called the Shine and the New Program. They're acronyms, and not quite honestly, it's the same thing we've been doing since 2017. It's just we had to come up with a structure for it so that we can explain it to donors and what we're doing and what you know what they're supporting, because it makes more sense to people to lay it out, although depending on where they are in that line. So S is always for safety. Now, once we get them to safety, then we've got to start working on real life stuff, right? Which is number one, their habits. What are your habits? We go, we dig deep. Like we they've got nor they gotta be totally transparent with us. Um, are you drinking? Do you smoke? Do you vape? Do you, you know, all of this stuff. And that's very important information, right? Because we need to know are do they have some sort of an addiction? Um, most of them, not all of them, some of them, okay, some of them were the main breadwinners. They just did not have access to the money.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker 4:Some of them haven't worked in years because they were being so isolated and controlled. So it's the habits. And what are the good habits that are going to move you forward? And what are the ones that are going to hold you back? And we start working on those. Within that, what comes along with the age is our self-perception. We really start digging in. We have it's a 30-day self-perception thing, something, little things that they do every day. And um, that's a program that I put together. And the reason why is because it is structure.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 4:Habit and it is structure that you do every single morning. And one of the things that you do every single morning is you make your bed. I mean, it's not that hard, and it is that it is a non-negotiable, even because you know, you hear it all the time. Well, I'm getting back in it. I don't care if you're getting back in it. You're going to make your bed. So I get a lot of pictures of bed made beds in the morning, which it's awesome, you know, because now we got a habit going. So we work on habits, and then from there, um, it's independent. So we're working on being independent because they have been independent for so long, um, because they were so controlled by and and along with this, so now picture we're working with a survivor, but we also have to take into account how many kids do you have, how old are the kids, like all of this stuff, right? Because now we also have to focus on the kids, and the kids are really important to us, not so survivors, but the kids are really important to us as well because they didn't choose to be in this situation. And the only way to get them to safety is to get the parent, whichever parent is being abused, out of the situation.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker 4:But a lot of things come along with that as well. So everything that we're working on the survivor with, depending on the age of the child, we're also working with that. And we have, you know, a new way of living. You know, this is a whole new thing. And so every day we're working on habits. Now, within that, we're working on okay, you gotta make money. You have to make money. Sure. This your life, you have to be sustainable, you have to be financially stable. So within six weeks, anybody that starts working with us or gets in our programs has a job. They have a job. We will help we help them with the resumes, we help them look for them. And and this is the thing: there's a difference between a career and a job. So when they say, you know, but I don't want to do that, that's fine. I it doesn't, that doesn't matter to me, to be honest. Um, you know, we they we can start if you're at a certain place in your life, or maybe you've got a skill set that is a career because everybody's different. Let's get some money coming in, then we can work on that bigger career goal.
Speaker:Sure.
Speaker 4:That is huge. It's called our new program, which we work in, which is navigating employment wins. I mean, you have to have a job. And and see, this is something that separates us out. So I don't know how much you know about um shelters and things like that, but in most shelters in all countries, you can't tell a survivor what they need to do or what they have to do. You can't say you have to do this, this is the next step. The reason for that is they call it the empowerment model. The empowerment model I think is disempowering. The number one thing on the empowerment model means says you cannot tell a survivor that they have to do something. Well, we already don't fit that. And the reason why I'm bringing this to your attention is in order to get most grants from most governments or states, you have to abide by that empowerment model. And we don't, and I can't go there, I can't do that because I wouldn't be able to say to that person, now we have to get a job. It's a non-negotiable. Now, in saying that, I you know, they can get a little bit of assistance. I know every country is different. Um, they can get maybe some government assistance, and I think if you need it, apply for it, let's use it while we can. But what are your goals? Because you're never going to be able to reach certain goals, and most of them have them if you start digging in. That's another thing we do is we say, what would you do if nothing was holding you back? Not money, not time, not logistics, not people. And we start to find those dreams inside, right? And then we're like, okay, you're not going to get that living on government assistance. I mean, you're just not. So our goal is to use it when it's needed and then get you off of it so that you're in control of your life, nothing else. And then you don't have money for food all of a sudden because they've just cut your benefits, or you can't know in some countries. I think Northern Ireland is one of them, well, where they will give a subsidy for um oil for the heat, you know, like. But then when that's not given out, you've got cold water, you can't have a warm bath. So those are the kinds of things that we work on. And that's why when I said at the beginning, this stuff takes like a year and a half to two years. Like I'm not sure. It is a long process. It's not something that in 30 days is done. Like, okay, well, they're on their own. Um so it's and it's it's really nice to see when people do follow through and they start when they start to see, just like any human, you start to see progress and see that you're doing it. And then it's like, oh, I'm doing it. And then they want to continue on.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:And so that's where we get. And then we're building that self-perception and the self-esteem all at the same time. And now, mind you, we have to talk a lot too about things you can control right now and things you can't control right now. We talk about that divide down the middle. So if you are separated now or going through a divorce, or there's custody issues or child support issues or whatever, that's on the I can't do anything about that right now because unfortunately the system takes a while. We're gonna we're gonna know it's there, and as it comes up, we're gonna deal with it. But we're not, it's not gonna like we can't let it take over our lives. So we've got to do the things we can control, which is over here, right? Which is getting the job, taking care of the kids, working on how you feel about yourself, making sure your health is in check. That's a whole another thing. A lot of people have not been to the doctor in years, and they don't feel good, and sometimes a little tweak that they have to make in their lives. So you could say, I have a lot to say about all this. It it there's it's a big subject. So how that's what a typical day year looks like, and it just depends on where they come to us and where they are then. And then we just say, okay, here we are. Now let's move forward. We never look back either. That's another thing. We don't look back, we don't talk about it. If we have to like bring it up here and there to like you know, figure out a few things, but what I've seen in my years doing this, there are some great therapistic counselors out there, there are some great great uh trauma therapists, which I think are amazing, and then there are some that just want to dig every single week into what happened, and I feel like with that, every you know, then they're brought down again and they're just emotionally, they've relived the whole situation again, that's not going, it's not bringing us forward, so I I'm not an advocate of that, yeah.
Speaker:And and it's fascinating because you mentioned a lot of stuff there that makes sense. And I I know some people that have had that that are going through therapy, and I see them like on the day that they've been in therapy, have had their session, and you can't have a conversation with them because they're not down. And some of that stuff that they're discussing is stuff from their parents 20, 30, 40 years ago, and they're doing that week in, week out. And I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm not saying that shit doesn't need to be discussed, but if you're finding that it's ruining one or two days of your time when the other days are actually fine, then then what are we trying to do, right? Um, because for me, if I'm genuinely fine for five days out of the week, and the only time I feel bad is when I have a conversation with someone about stuff that happened 20 years ago, and maybe it's time for me to let that stuff from 20 years ago go, right? Because that way I can also be fine better too.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we can't change, you can't change the past.
Speaker:No, so you you've you look at it, it's the old one of our friends will say, look back, but don't stare, that type of thing, right? Look back so you can deal with your shit and then you move on, but you have to.
Speaker 4:But this is the thing, too, though. Okay, so it's like the it's like this way humans think, right? I mean, look at the media, um, the positive stuff's not being put out there, it's the negative stuff because that gets people's attention. So when we look back on our lives, how many of us are actually looking at those good times? There were good times. That's not what we're taught, that's not what's being brought up in those situations, which I think if it was, we could say, okay, you know, that was horrible what happened. Do you remember any good times? And 99% of the time the answer is yes. Like I remember when you know Aunt Jerry went and brought me, you know, this baby doll that just made me gay. And it was, you know, and it, I mean, I treated that baby like a real baby, or or they brought me, you know, a kite and I got, you know, it's just I know those are simple little things, but think about how that changes what your past was. Because now we're bringing up the good things, you know. Did you have food to eat? Did you go to school? Did you, you know, and I I know I'm I I'm not trying to um diminish the things people went through because I'll tell you mom through some horrible stuff, like the point where I I don't even know how her and her siblings made it through, and some of them didn't. And I just and I know I don't even know everything because every once in a while she'll bring up something else, and I'm just like, How does a kid live like that? But she can look back too at you know, she loved spending the summer with her grandparents because safety, and they'd let her climb trees and they would, you know, whittle with the little knife and the in the so I I agree with you. I think that if it's going to is the therapy bringing out the best in you, is is it making you a happier person, which is the whole reason why I'm assuming you're going, or not you, but you know, people are going to therapy because they want to feel better, right?
Speaker:Okay, but it it seems it seems relative, and it's interesting that that you mentioned that, you know, about the about the the the the steps that you're taking people through. Uh for it's that you say, okay, we go from here, we go to there, we go to there, and everybody's journey is personalized and all that sort of stuff, of course, but depending on what their starting point is. But unless for people and unless you know what your next step is supposed to be, so unless you have someone telling you what that next step is kind of going to have to look like, you have no chance of figuring that stuff out by yourself. So when you're telling me that shelters, at least where where where you are, are not allowed to say, hey, time to get a job because this is your next step to financial independence, which will lead to a house and blah blah blah blah blah, all that type of stuff that you need to be stable and safe going forward. Because one of the things you spoke about was financial safety. Um right, the reason not having to get into a relationship because you're financially safe is a huge thing. Um, but unless you tell people that, they they're not necessarily going to figure that stuff out by themselves.
Speaker 4:Well, they're not because of the situation that they've been in. Yeah, and you have to. Now, I will say shelters are employing people, every shelter that I know of, and this is in, I don't know about Scotland, but I know this is in the UK, this is in Ireland, this is in Northern Ireland, in Canada, they employ people to help people find jobs. Yeah, so they're sitting there with the resources, yeah, but the advocate cannot tell the person this is your next step. Now they can maybe suggest it, but they can't make it a non-negotiable, they can't say how to do this, but you're right. How are you going to move forward? Over 85% of survivors go back, and this is globally statistically, for financial reasons. So to me, it makes sense that we've got to tell them to do this. And and this is what I don't know of any other organization globally, because we are global, or even in Kenya. I mean, you know, which is a whole nother way of life. Um, you know, it so we have to, you know, we're the only ones that I know of doing this, like, because I mean you have to stick with what you believe in and what you know works. You know what I mean? Like if something else worked, I would I and the people that work, and they say work, we everybody volunteers within our organization would be open to hearing it. But again, people need to be guided, and that's anybody. I mean, even if you're the CEO of this huge corporation, you're gonna have some questions, and somebody's probably gonna guide you to the next one. Yeah, so everybody needs guidance in the in in that way, and so that's what we're providing. Um, and it's not easy all the time. I'll be real uh with you. You know, it's these are some tough situations, and uh sometimes you know, people need a little more than others. Um, meaning not I'm not even talking about the financial part because I'm talking about the just the get up and go, you know, the the push. I mean, I'm usually the people call me that I have they say that I have a loving push because I will push. And I'm gonna say it like it is, and because I expect them to be transparent with me too. Like I, you know, and again, like we talked about addiction, you know, like if you've got a drug addiction, then we've got to we've got to tackle that first. Now, I'm not equipped to do that, my organization isn't equipped to do that. However, we will then collaborate with one that is. Yeah, so that's another thing that we do is we collaborate with other organizations. I mean, we can't do this by ourselves, we're not most of us are experts in everything. So I always love to meet new people, people that can help in other ways in ways, or we collaborate, it's a big thing. Um now I will mention, so you know, people ask me why it's called hopeful handbags because we do so much. But I will say when I said at the beginning about opening the conversation, so my grandmother loved her handbag and she always had it, you know, really tight to her. And it had her necessities in there. And it like, you know, it's like actually my purse is like that these days too. Like, if you need it, I've probably got it. Okay. Food, band-aids, I mean, measure in US, I probably got drinks. I got it. Um, and so my mom and I in 2017 thought, you know, why don't we start collecting handbags? Because we had heard of people collecting handbags and handing them out to the homeless with sanitary products in them. Okay, yeah. And we knew how much my grandmother's handbag meant to her because we would take her to the store like every six months to pick a new one out. So, and she loved it. So, like this is an example right here of a full handbag. So, what we do though is we have drop-off locations or we have business. So, businesses will become drop-off locations for handbags and the necessities that go inside. Now, what this does is not only allows us to collect these items so that we can then bag them up, we clean everything, they're filled with love. I mean, we tag them, and I'll tell you about that in a minute. Put a handwritten card inside. And it opens up the conversation, though, for every single person that looks at the basket and looks at the brochure because they're like, domestic abuse. Does that happen around here? Or they start reading and they're like, because they know that they're in a domestic abuse situation. So we have people that we end up saving their lives and their kids' lives because they reach out to us because of the drop-off locations.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 4:Um, the other thing we do is we partner with a lot of women's organizations and we have with some men's organizations in the past as well, but we partner with them and we maybe talk a little bit and just open that conversation. And within that talk, like say it's you know scheduled for one particular day, then we might suggest for people hey, listen, if you have any once-loved handbags that you don't use anymore, or you're at the store and you can pick up some extra shampoo, conditioner, or whatever your specific list is, and you can bring it when you're hearing us speak, bring it because we're going to get that out. And again, opens up the conversation. Um, the other thing that we do is anything that's donated, whether it be monetary or in-kind donation, stays within the areas it's donated in. So for instance, if it's donated in Florida, it's going to stay within Florida. Now, if we don't have a chapter in Florida, then it's going to stay within the country. It's going to get news for somebody in the country. Same thing. If I had somebody reach out to me today from Scotland that wanted to get involved, any money that would be raised or any in kind would go back to that area. So we keep everything separate because let's be real, everybody wants to help people in their own country first. And I think that's important. I totally feel that that's very important because how can we help other people if we haven't helped the people around us first? So that's something that uh we are we we do. I mean, we it it just is what it is, it's what we've done since the beginning, and we will continue doing that. Um, and even if somebody, even if we're not registered in that particular country, what we do, we are an official 501c3 here in the United States. And within our mission and everything, we we have it so that we can help others. So we can then send it out to okay, this, you know, we're gonna help, I'll say Scotland, because that's where you are gonna help Scotland with um this, and we're gonna find a shelter that might need these. We're gonna start raising awareness and it'll go back there. Um, so that's that's where the handbags come in. It truly opens up the conversation. And you know, we're talking about people that are divorced. So, you know, when we were talking about that, we also talk about dating abuse. We talk about that because it'd be really nice of these people not to get in these long-term relationships. Okay. Um, so that's something we touch on a lot. And what I what I'm I'm looking into now is starting to work hopefully with some dating apps and like that. Because I mean, we already go into colleges and universities and we talk to them about dating abuse. And they'll do fundraisers for us. Again, they'll do fundraisers for us. Like, okay, so we did one, um, it was I think it was the beginning of October or the end of September. And it was a sorority and a fraternity that came together to do this fundraiser. What they did was walk a mile in her shoes. It was, and so we do it to be, it's fun too, right? The guys, of course, it was we had to go find heels that were like size 10. I'm sure, yeah. But um, they it was hilarious and they did such a great job. So they raised money and some of them ran. I was impressed um with these heels on for a mile, right? Um, but it brought awareness. We started talking about dating abuse, you know, because they knew why they were there, and then we talk about again, this happens in dating abuse. What's the first thing, so first sign of abuse in any kind of abuse, but dating abuse, it's just right there in your face, is isolation. People will start dating somebody and then they slowly back away from their friends, they slowly back away from their family. I mean, I'm not saying it's just because they're spending time with somebody else, but you start to see that okay, so-and-so is not around at all anymore. And or when we do ask them to do something, they'll say, Oh, I've got to ask whoever, you know, I've got to ask that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:And after a little while, you know, that's when the red flag should start to go off. Something's here. Now, the red flag should go off for the friends and the family, but also that person in the relationship. What what are we doing here? Like, what kind of control are they trying to have, or what am I trying to fill? Now, I'm not saying you don't fall madly in love with somebody and you want to be with them and only them for the rest of your life.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 4:That happens, okay? It does. But until you know somebody, especially let's be real, dating apps, you don't know these people. I don't know. I'm just saying that you don't know them, you don't know their history.
Speaker:So no, yeah, no, exactly. And and yeah, I'm I'm I'm too old and I've been married for too long to even have dating apps.
Speaker 4:If it that was a thing that came after after my dating good app, I have some friends who are mine. I'm 53, so I have some friends who are single, and I cannot tell you the story. Some of them are hilarious, they're hilarious. I mean, sometimes I just like to talk to them so I can hear what their dates were like. If you can't make this stuff up, like you can't. Okay, let's just talk about this car as far as these this whole uh phone thing is a problem. So, and I say this because not only the dating apps, but even within marriages, this stuff happens within things where they basically blackmail them, right? So they'll say, Send me a picture of you. Now, this isn't just happening with teenagers, right? Send me a picture of you with no clothes on or make a video or whatever, and then that person has on their phone, and then they use it, they use it as control, right? Don't do this, I will send this to. And I have seen that happen unfortunately too many times.
Speaker:Oh, that's insane, isn't it? Because that that that is very fast moving into the let's let's just say that's a bit of an escalation from what I consider control. You know, I mean, that is mental level of of uh that revenge porny type type thing.
Speaker 4:That's all basic things. I mean, I hear it so much, unfortunately. I do, and it's because they'll say, I have it right here, I'm gonna send it out. And they and and that is whether they will or would or wouldn't.
Speaker:Yeah, it doesn't matter anymore, right? It's it's it's the the the the the front of the this is just my PSA for people, okay?
Speaker 4:The public service announcement. Be careful who you're hanging out with, and if you're having intimate times, I mean sometimes people are being recorded and they don't even know it. But just be aware, just be aware because unfortunately, this is it's hard for people to come back from that when it's really and we've seen this on university campuses, and I've seen it with 30, 40, 50 year olds. I mean, I'm telling you, it's there's so that's what I said at the beginning. There's this is such a big subject that it's not even like you can say there's this, this, this, and this. Like what qualifies as abuse?
Speaker:Oh, yeah, it's a ridiculously long list. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a ridiculously long list. It and and it's funny because well, not haha funny, but it it's funny because that again, that type of stuff, it's like I said, it's not my world, but I obviously know people who are like you said, dating, and and it's all on on the phone. I don't know anyone who's met a person in real life and started dating them anymore, right? That is just may maybe kids at university, but people don't date at work anymore because every company now has a no dating policy, right? Right, so so the place where you're supposed to meet people actively doesn't allow you to date anyone from the company because you know, god what would happen to corporate profits and all that sort of stuff if people started dating, um, because that is the capitalist hellhole we now live in, and therefore, people have to go almost have to go online because they don't they don't meet people, and and the online world is such a bizarre place, oh, it is to to I mean, even for people who are on it, I'm sure, but even from people like myself who are looking at it from the outside in, you just go, I don't know how I can't even begin to how do you filter out all the red flags that are there? Yeah, you can't whilst because it's insane. Now, like you said, you don't know anyone.
Speaker 4:How do you know they're telling the truth? I mean, I was talking to my um, you know, I've got four kids, and they're I they have kids, and you know, some of them are in university, some of them are married with kids. But we were talking about this with one of my older kids, and I was like, and I don't even know like what's real anymore. You know, this like video, like when somebody's talking and imagine what they're doing within the dating world with that, or I don't even know what to believe anymore. I mean, I'm I I'm not a lover of social media, to be honest. I go on social media, we have a page on social media, I post here and there on social media, but I also know enough to know that what I see isn't always true, and so I don't really take that as truth and news. True. Um, but uh you don't know these people, you really don't know what you're getting. And I'm not saying it doesn't work, I I know of a couple people who've met somebody online and it has worked. I think it's few and far between. And the other thing is you're right, I mean, you can't really meet people at work anymore. Um, and and I'm always like, don't meet them at a bar when you're drunk.
Speaker:Yeah, but to be fair, again, yeah, I mean, because the the the the bar is is a strange thing these days because when I was younger, a long, long time ago, that was kind of you met people at the bar and and in the club, but you also probably knew of them before too, right? Like yeah, yeah, you the the the bar had an audience, if you know what I meant. So the the the club was already a club full of like-minded people, right? Um so you probably likely had something in common with at least something in common with the person. And I don't yeah, it it it it strikes me as really difficult for people to avoid that type of thing when they move into the online realm of dating, and that falling into dating abuse to get unbugged is so remarkably easy because, like you said, a lot of a lot of conversations happen online first, right? So it kind of makes sense that there's a lower threshold for sending images.
Speaker 4:Yep. So it's happening, unfortunately, it's happening with other underage, right? I mean, this is how coming up all the time for undercover stuff. Um it's happening throughout the ages, and there and and I don't, I mean that's a whole nother thing. We talk about underage, which I I really have a problem with. Um I mean, obviously, we all have an issue with that kind of stuff, but I'm telling you, I don't think kids should have phones. I I don't think I mean I am of the belief that 16-year-olds shouldn't even have phones. Like, I don't, I mean, all my kids got a phone. Well, my older kids, they're in their 30s, okay? Like the didn't even it wasn't an iPhone, right? It was flip-phone thingies, they couldn't even do it. But the younger ones, I didn't let them have a phone until they were in high school. But I don't think every kid is equipped up here yet for that. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker:Of what yeah, for sure. Yeah, I've got I've I've I've done interviews with tech specialists that like like like funnily enough, like most tech billionaires send their kids to analog schools. They they they say, No, my kid doesn't go to a school where they're allowed phones. Are you out of your mind? And these are the guys working in that world, they're like right. The the the people at Apple don't let their kids have an iPhone because they know exactly what that leads to, right? All the top guys, and I've done interviews, and uh, for anyone listening, I'll I'll I'll link to the interview because I can't remember who it was. I think it was Australian. Um, again, very high up in the inner tech company. And he's like, No, you're nuts. No, there is there is a we go from here to there to there to there.
Speaker 4:So by the time we're adults, access to that they're not ready for a whole exactly.
Speaker:It's it's for then to be honest, I'm I'm barely ready for it.
Speaker 4:Well, I'm not when you and I were younger, right? Yeah, because like you said, you're and you're you're the same age I am around that age. Okay, yeah, like in order to know something, I would have had to have seen it. We'd have had to have or been told it, right? So that would come from either the TV, which was very restricted back then, right? Um we had 12 channels, and I think the worst thing was a PG something. I don't know, the worst thing was smoking on a commercial. Um, and then we had um magazines maybe at the checkout at the grocery store. Yeah, then you had your friends who thought they knew everything who might tell you something. Okay, that was it. And then we had to find out the answers to that. So if I had a question about it, I wasn't going online, it didn't exist, just like it didn't for you. I was going home to ask my parents, or I was going to ask somebody. So we were literally exposed to about maybe I don't know, one percent if that, maybe 0.01 of what they're being exposed to now. So these kids that are 10 and 11 who listen, I didn't even, I mean, the stuff that I did not know looking back, even when I was in high school about the thing the things these when I hear about 12-year-olds being sexually active, I'm like, how do they even know that's a thing? Like, how do they even know that's a thing? It's because of the phones, yeah. So not I'm not I'm not a phone lover for any age.
Speaker:No, and and and that's an excellent, uh, excellent point because it kind of brings us full circle that it's so easy for let's say people act in bad faith to exert control, yeah, especially and uh and and manipulate, especially to let's be honest at 12 years old. You don't have a mind of your own, right? And and I suppose you'll see this a lot. Abusive patterns start young and they carry on for a long, long time. So people who are manipulated into stuff when they're 12, 13, 14, 15 might carry that forward because it becomes normalized uh in their 20s, and then before you know it, they're in their 30s and they're with you.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Well, and I want to, I'm glad you brought this up. I know we've been talking a long time, but I want to bring this up. So most people just assume that everybody that ends up in an abusive situation came from an abusive home or background. That's not true. So what I see, I could, you know, if I have to give a percentage, obviously it changes yearly, but not very much. I would say it's about 50-50 from what I see.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 4:Um and the 50% that don't come from the abusive homes actually come from very loving homes where the people would do anything for them. But they get in a relationship, again, let's we're if we can just hit the nipness in the button beforehand of somebody that's very manipulative that starts to isolate them, and then the abuse starts slowly, and then they wear down on their self-perception, they wear down on what they think about themselves, and then that's the only person that's still in their lives because they've let everybody else go. And it's not because they grew up in an abusive home. You've got they've got family that would do anything for them, friends that are, but sure, yeah, they won't let them in.
Speaker:But but but but that's kind of like the the the classic, isn't it? Because as soon as you say that, people in abusive relationships tend to have been from an abusive home. As soon as you do that, you kind of put the onus on the victim here, or or on the survivor, right?
Speaker 4:You would expect that then, and that's what you'll say.
Speaker:Oh, I'm yeah, whereas the the the the bad actor in this doesn't matter who who the who the survivor is, that's or who his or her victim is. It's just yeah, you you pick one and then you just you know sociopaths are gonna sociopath, right? Then that it doesn't matter who where where the person being abused necessarily came from. Their starting journey has nothing to do with you just missed a red flag or two, and before you know it, it's all red flags and and and all that type of stuff, but you can't see it anymore.
Speaker 4:And abusers aren't always me. That's why they they know just how far to push the person before they bring them back in, and then the whole love starts again. And oh my gosh, so it's typically, and they do say it's in cycles, and you know what? I've seen it. Some people are on like two month cycles, some of them are on one month, some of them are on three month cycles, but you see it, things are really bad, horrible, and then oh my gosh, things have been amazing for a few weeks, and we're back at it again. Well, I mean, you know the pattern. It's gonna keep happening. So we we like to just m make sure people know that you know there's no judgment either. Every time I think I heard something I haven't heard it all. I mean, I think I heard it all and I'm like, and then I haven't heard it all because I hear something else. But you know, it's nobody's fault that they're in these situations. So we just want people to know to reach out, just reach out because that's always the first step is just to talk to somebody, you know, just talk to somebody and and people typically will not leave right away.
Speaker:They don't, they don't it's you know, it's some cost fallacy, isn't it? People have been stuck in a relationship for a while and it never used to be it, it never starts off terrible, and therefore you think that if it just changed X, Y, Z, it can go back to being blah blah blah. And and let's be honest, change is difficult.
Speaker 4:And any or they'll say, I've been in this relationship for so long just to let it go. And I'm like, Well, how much longer are you gonna stay in it?
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 4:I mean, that's what you should, that's the question. Yes, you've been in it a long time. How much longer are you gonna do it? Like, how old are you? What do you want for the rest of your life? Like, and that's why we ask those are very important questions too about your dreams. Take everybody else out of this. I'm talking, take your kids out of your brain, take you, like you know, any situation, just you. What are your dreams? Because a lot of people aren't asked that question. And we need to know, okay, what are they, what is really deep in there? And then we can start going from there and then add the right, you know, of course, now here are the kids. Imagine how well your kids would be doing if you actually felt good and were happy. And another thing we hear a lot is when my kid, when my child turns 18, when they're grown, okay, well, now you've really done them no justice because now they've grown up in this. How are you gonna change that? I mean, so much, so much.
Speaker:So I appreciate you being patient listening to me talk because No, I I think it's wonderful to be honest, because I think there's a lot of really valuable stuff in there, and I think just the the whole idea of asking yourself, because I do this every now and again, where do you see yourself? Not in not in a job type of way, not like when you have a job interview, where do you see yourself in five years? That's a stupid question, but just genuinely what do you want for yourself? What do you really want for yourself? And and if that looks a certain way, then you might have to make certain changes that you're maybe not necessarily uh willing or able to make there and then, but you might have to say, okay, it I've realized that what I'm currently doing isn't what I want to be doing, and it's like you said, you've been together for someone, I don't know, five, ten, whatever years.
Speaker 2:Some people are 25 years, yeah.
Speaker:And and and and then you're like, but I've got 40 years to go, right? That's a that's another 40 years. That that is a long time, and I think a lot of people again look at my age, 40, 50, 60 year old, they think their life is over already, right? They're just waiting for the other person to die so that they can be so much more.
Speaker 4:I mean, even if even if your goal, it's like you said, we're not talking about jobs here, we're not talking about talking about in in a lot of things that I mean. This is my goal and might be yours, a lot of people's health and happiness. Okay, how do I get there? Because sometimes if we truly look at our lives, we can probably do better for our health, which would in turn make us happy. Now let's look at happiness. I mean, those are two very simple things, not they're not simple, they're actually big, but those two words have a lot attached to it. If we start to look at our lives, are we doing things to lead in that direction? Because as we get older too, we realize, and if we could realize this as we're younger, that without our health, we really don't have anything.
Speaker:Well, true. Uh that's very true.
Speaker 4:Uh so we got to work on that, and that of course that leads to all of the other things. And of course, if you're in an abusive situation, I can promise you your health is not that great, whether it's your emotional health, your physical.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah. People don't people immediately go, I go to the gym six times and we come healthy. Yeah, no, we're talking about all the other stuff.
Speaker 4:Yeah, all the other stuff, and then that's important too to keep your body moving, but yeah, it all goes together. So there's so much. I mean, it's not a cut and dry, and that and that's so that's what we do, kind of in a big nutshell that is a lot of different things, and that is why um, you know, it's hard just to explain to somebody like that's why I tell people, what do you guys do? Well, we bring survivors of domestic abuse and their children to safety, health, wellness, and long-term financial stability, and just the stuff that we've talked about this past hour, all of that goes into it.
Speaker:So exactly, there's there's a lot more than just getting someone out.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and there's a lot more than just getting, yes, you have to get to safety, but once you get to safety, where do you go from there? So we have a lot of people that contact us after the shelter, they don't have they don't know what to do next. They don't know what to do next.
Speaker:No, well, that's that's like like we said earlier, everybody needs a bit of guidance. Um it's great that there are places out there that are uh things out there, such as uh hopeful handbags that that that can actually bring them that. So on that happy note, I will press stop record here. And press stop record is exactly what I did. Thanks so much to Cathleen for coming on. Uh like I said, I I think this is one of those amazing charities that that that gets it. Uh and I know there's tons of excellent charities out there, um, or non-profits, whatever you want to call it, right? Um and I I think it's it's it is huge that the that this type of holistic approach almost to helping people where you realize that they need more than just getting out of a situation and that you have long term, that you work with people long term. I think that's a phenomenal thing. So check out the Hopeful Handbags website. I will link to absolutely everything, right? And I'm going to everywhere you want to find Kaffleen and Hope for Hopeful Handbags will be available in the podcast description. So check it out. Peter at healthypostnatal body.com. If you want to come onto the podcast or have a guest or um a subject that you would like cover, just send me a little email, send me a little text. We have that text thing now where you can just if you listen to this on your phone, you press a little link and and and it allows you to send a text message to me. Just be nice, right? Uh, anyways, rate the podcast if you can. Apple Podcasts, especially. I'm I'm I'm we're going to do a big push for now uh because ratings are everything these days. I never used to care about it. But apparently I need to care about these things now. Anyways, here is a new bit of music, and um, I will be back next week with a from the vault. Right. Take care. Bye now.
Speaker 3:Everybody has some friends today Loudest give on that thing till the cut Cause we never get the time you are trying to channel with us.