FTV Why Physical Clearance Isn’t Emotional Readiness For Sex After Having A Baby with Courtney Boyer M.Ed., M.S.

FTV This week I have the absolute pleasure of being joined by relationship and sexuality expert, Courtney Boyer.  M.Ed., M.S.

Courtney is the author of "Not tonight, honey" (Why women actually don't want sex and what we can do about it) and we have a phenomenal conversation about postpartum intimacy touching on all, sometimes uncomfortable..for me at least, aspects of it.

We talk about why the focus postpartum is on the physical recovery much more than the mental recovery and how a HUGE part of sexual intimacy is mental rather than just physically being able.

How you can aid your recovery.

How to have a meaningful conversation with your partner in such a way that they understand your wants and needs.

And much, much more.

I'm not gonna lie, my 48 year old Dutch-repressed man-brain isn't used to having an open conversation about this sort of stuff but Courtney is a great conversationalist and really knows what she's talking about.
This might also be one of those episodes that you want to get your partner to listen to :)

You can, and should, go find Courtney online in all the usual places;

Her Website
 Instagram
TikTok
LinkedIn
and Facebook




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Playing us out this week; "On our own" by Thee Alchemist Oxford 

Transcript

From The Vault: Setting The Stage

Peter 0:00

Hey, welcome to the Healthy Post Natal Body Podcast with your Post Natal Expert Peter Lapa That, as always, would be me. This is the podcast for Yes Indeed, the 21st of December 2025. And in a this is a from the vault episode because in the uh last week I brought you the interview about hopeful handbags with C Miner, which was phenomenal. Tonight I'm bringing you the most uncomfortable subject I have ever discussed on this podcast. I did an interview in October 2023 with Courtney Boyer, who is a phenomenal person. She is a relationship and sexuality expert. She's also the author of a book called Not Tonight, Honey, Why Women Actually Don't Want Sex and What We Can Do About It. And we have a tremendous conversation about postpartum intimacy, touching on all, you know, sometimes uncomfortable for me, at least, aspects of it. We talk about why the focus postpartum is on the physical recovery much more than the mental recovery, and how a huge part of sexual intimacy is mental rather than just physically uh being able to have sex again, how you can aid your recovery, how to have meaningful conversations with your partner in such a way that they can understand your wants and your needs and much, much more. Like I said, it it's this was one of those conversations that was let's just say it's a good thing Courtney is patient and deals with a lot of people like me. Um, Dutch repressed people. Um, you're gonna love this conversation. If you uh if you have a partner and you've just given birth, given birth, you might want to hand it over to your partner as well and have them listen to us because it's it's an eye-opener, I think, for a lot of people. Um, this conversation. So without further ado, here we go. There's a lot of guidance around when you can have sex against postpartum. You know, you go to the GP and they say something like, uh, as soon as you feel comfortable, but almost all of it focuses on the physical aspect, you know, when it feels comfortable and nothing on the mental aspect of being ready. Are we are we kind of missing the trick there? Should we include that?

Courtney 2:26

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I think that once the the mind is actually more important to me than the body. Yeah. So absolutely. I think we do a disservice when we ignore that crucial part of who we are.

Peter 2:40

Yeah, because it's funny, right? Because it seems to me, and I as I point out all my listeners, and they all know, and they're fed up, hear me say, I'm a middle-aged white guy, I'm about you know 48, 49 years old, almost 49. But it's even to me, it seems a little bit say male-centric, yes, to have the approach of saying, Well, you know, when you're not bleeding anymore, then you can because that's essentially what it boils down to. Not when it feels comfortable that that it's when you're not bleeding anymore, you can have sex again. Um, yeah, but there's so much more that comes into play when you're talking about postpartum sexuality, right?

The Six-Week Myth And Male-Centric Models

Courtney 3:16

Yes, absolutely. I mean, that that's the reality though of our medical system, especially when it comes to sexuality. You know, I mean, uh, the sexual response cycle has been based on a man's arousal. And I mean, there's so much of science is based on white men.

Peter 3:36

Sure, yeah.

Courtney 3:36

Not a lot is based on a woman and her experience. And so it's no surprising, even when it comes to postpartum, that we approach it the same way.

Peter 3:45

So, so why do you think that because I because I I do talk to a lot of my uh with my um with my personal training clients about this, much more than say my my uh website membership, um, and they they're much more open and willing to discuss their their issues with regards to postpartum intimacy and all that sort of stuff, because they I think quite often there's a shock associated with your postpartum body that has an impact on the mental state, which is much more significant than you would for almost any other case, isn't there?

Courtney 4:20

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it I think we are and media doesn't help that. You know, you see celebrities who are like, you know, got I got my body back six weeks postpartum, and you're like, what the hell? Like, I'm I'm like the same way I was before I went to deliver, you know, like it just yeah, it it's hard when we there's so much pressure, and then that adds an element of shame on top of already feeling discomfort, already dealing with the you know, us oscillating hormones. Like it's just it is tough.

Peter 4:55

So, so what are then some of the reasons that you've come across why why it is so difficult for women, even though they might be physically ready, so to speak, you know, because you know the doctor says you're good to go. Sure. And rather than, but mentally they don't feel ready at all. Because it can't all be linked to like postpartum depression and all that stuff.

Media Pressure, Body Shock, And Hormones

Birth Trauma, Feeding Struggles, Survival Mode

Courtney 5:15

Oh, no, not at all. I mean, I think one, what I just said, you're also, you know, your your hormones are fluctuating. So you have surges of different things. I think, um, gosh, there's so many factors. Uh let's just even look at the birth itself. I mean, some women who go through traumatic births are not even traumatic, like just bursts that didn't go the way that they wanted. And so they're left feeling maybe they had a cesarean section and they wanted to have a natural vaginal birth. And so there's elements of disappointment. Some women feel like they have to grieve through that process of I thought it was going to be one way, and they just now they're they they're shoved into motherhood and now they're, you know, trying to feed and latch and you know, heal and you know, still maybe if they have other kids or if they have work. I mean, it's just it's multifactori uh factors that are asking for attention, some demanding, some, you know, like if your baby is healthy and able to latch on and breastfeed, if that's what you're wanting to do, that's great. But for a lot of women, you know, that's not their experience. Maybe their baby had complications or they are having you know issues with getting the baby to latch. And so now that they're dealing with another element of frustration of my body's not cooperating with me. And so I think that's one right big huge aspect. Um, another aspect too is the your body does not look the same. It does not feel the same. And you're sharing your body typically if you're breastfeeding, and even if you're not, just having another human touching you, needing you all of the time, that really puts you into mom mode. And mom mode, despite many of the 20-something year old men who are obsessed with milks, are is not sexy for a lot of women. Like they just are like, I feel gross, I haven't showered in days, I don't even know what like day it is, is like I am in survival mode. And when our bodies go into survival mode, reproduction shut like completely shuts down. Like we're in that fight or fight, freeze type of situation because we're trying to get our newborn to like survive. Like it's a very uh evolutionary uh reaction that we want this life that we created that it has our DNA, we want it to survive, we want it to thrive. And so that's where all of our focus is feeling like thinking about how you know when we're gonna get it on with our partner is like the least of our to-do list, you know, and a lot of it too, especially if women have that mentality going into uh childbirth and then now postpartum, if sex has been something that's always been another thing to do, it's at the bottom on my priority list. I don't really enjoy it that much. Like, there's no way it's gonna magically reappear um at the very top after you have a baby.

Peter 8:04

Yeah, and no, and that's an interesting point because when you say things like it again it makes complete sense, the body feels completely different postpartum, right? That almost by definition would lead me to think I'm I'm I'm like I said, I'm a guy and I'm a personal trainer, and I I kind of look at physical response more than anything. If the body is different, the response must be different, right? It's yes, the if things don't feel the same, correct, then everything else must feel different. So even instigating, and I'm not going talking about what the man should do here, but even just feeling like you want sex again might feel different than it used to. Does that make sense?

Courtney 8:53

Oh, absolutely, and I think there's a message too that um like new moms, I mean moms in general, but especially new moms are not sexual beings. Like they that is not like motherhood is not seen as sexy. Again, unless you're like man in your 20s, then that's a whole other issue. But um, you know, for the most part, like women are like, why would why would that be a concern for you? Even among other women, they're they're like, shouldn't like sleep and making sure your your baby's okay and like taking care of your changing body, like your your nipples are cracked, or you have a huge tear, or you know, I mean, there's so many other things. So sex is not something that's celebrated postpartum. It's almost seen as like, okay, well, this is coming up and I have to deal with this because my partner's like counting down the seconds, and so the doctor gives the okay, now you can get it on. And so I think that that's you know, another conversation that needs to take place of the role that sexual intimacy has in relationships postpartum.

Peter 9:55

So, how do you, as a woman, because like most of the most of my lists are are women, how do you have that conversation with your partner?

Courtney 10:04

Yeah, I think you need to be having that conversation with your partner way earlier. That's like waiting until your kids are like 13 to have the sex talk.

Peter 10:14

Yeah, right.

Courtney 10:14

Like you've just missed like so many opportunities, and then it's gonna be awkward as hell by the time they come to the teenage years and they're like, I don't, you're saying words that are making me want to pass out. Like, I just don't, I can't.

Peter 10:26

Yeah, we all remember not talking yeah, yeah.

Courtney 10:29

So I think like it the earlier that you can have conversations around sexuality with your partner, the better. Obviously, if you're already, well, that ship is sailed according. My child is three weeks old now, and I am needing to have to talk to my partner. It is so much more beneficial to be honest with your partner about what your struggles are than to pretend like they do not exist. That is how resentment breeds. When we bury our fears and our concerns, and we put on a show and we make it seem like those things don't matter, just so that we can fulfill an obligation for our partner.

Mom Mode, Desire, And Stress Response

Peter 11:07

Yeah, or even I suppose a lot, because again, this is my man brain thinking. So apologies for the listeners screaming up at the whatever the car radio, whatever you're listening on right now. This is such a stupid man question to ask. But the man, say the man instigates, you know, he he's like, Okay, the doctor said you're good to go. So let's should we try this? Because I'm assuming all men are at least somewhat delicate about this sort of stuff rather than just complete self-centered jackasses. Um, but they'll instead of the conversation probably needs to go past the no, I don't feel like it stage, right?

Courtney 11:47

There's obviously the absolutely, absolutely, yeah.

Peter 11:49

Because that is, I'm thinking a lot of um a lot of women have that type of conversation. I don't feel like it tonight, you know. The the whole like like like the title of your book says, Oh, not tonight, honey. Yeah, turnaround, and the guy just goes, Oh well, okay, not tonight then. Um that's not resolving anything, is it?

Courtney 12:13

No, I I think though that the better question that uh if the man is the you know the partner in this case is what can I do to help you feel aroused? What can I do to help you feel supported? What can I do to um make you know that I desire you and that I would like to be desired by you? So those are questions that I'll give the power to the woman who's going through so many changes and allows her to say, gosh, that's a really great question. Like I feel I feel seen, I feel valued and I feel loved and safe. And those are things that breed and lead to arousal, not resentment, right? And allows for bigger conversations to happen. Like, gosh, I really appreciate that you see that I am sleep deprived or I haven't showered in three days, and you are acknowledging that I need some help. That, gosh, that what can I do for you? Here's what you can do you can take the baby for me so I can get a good night's sleep. Like there is studies show that for every hour, extra hour of sleep that a woman gets, her sexual desire increases by 14%. Now, obviously, that's a little skewed with or not skewed, but it's gonna be a little bit affected when your sleep is constantly being interrupted by a newborn. But we know that sleep is important uh for a variety of reasons. So if you're like, honey, I need to sleep in, drop the force, drop the hey, it's gonna increase my sexual desire by a little bit. Every bit counts.

Rethinking “Not Tonight” And Better Questions

Peter 13:48

Yeah, no, because because that that because that's that's a good point. Um the sleep deprivation. See, again, if you're not, I'm guessing if you're not a mum like myself, then you don't really think about this type of stuff, right? Um and I don't want to turn this into a oh, what can the man do to make the woman feel uh aroused again? Because that is kind of the wrong angle, I think, for me, or at least for for my listeners. Uh it's it's the the how can a woman best explain to her husband or have the conversation with her husband or with her spouse or whatever, um where she can say, Listen, this is where I am at the moment, in a way that uh the spouse can actually understand what she's talking about. Because quite often uh I I and I hear this a lot from a lot of guys, they're talking about baby blues, right? The the baby blues, which is a term I hate. Um and they're talking about uh it's just a little bit, right? It's it's there's no there's no real understanding of what is actually happening.

Courtney 15:02

Yeah, yeah, I think that I totally agree with you. Uh, in a perfect world, even when women are not postpartum, I still see them struggle with having these conversations of this is what I need, this is how you can help me. Will you please do that? I think women have been conditioned to take on a lot of responsibility and internalize that. And it's like, well, then I'm not super mom, or then I'm not like the most amazing wife who can do all of the things. And instead of having that communication with their partners uh or partner of saying, Hey, this is how I'm feeling, because that's scary when we take the because because there's an assumption, I think, on your part, because I mean, I don't know you, but you seem like a kind person enough to be concerned about these things. But a a lot of men that I've worked with and come across with, they they don't want to help, they don't want to make the change. There's a sense of entitlement to you're my partner, you owe me sex because we're in a committed relationship. And so if I tell you, like you have that mentality, and I tell you, I I come to you humbly and nervously because I'm afraid that you may reject me for in my request. And I say, I really, I just I need some help. Like, can you like take the baby at night? And you say, No, I can't. What am I supposed to do with that? What what am I where am I gonna go? What am I gonna do? Like in a in a perfect world, you'd be like, Okay, well, you can just F right off and like go find somebody, right? Like a man that you deserve. Yeah, but that's a that's that's from a position of privilege and power, and a lot of women aren't in that position. Yeah, so I think that's just something that's important to remember of yes, of course, those conversations of well, just tell me what you need and I'll help you. That's not always the case with a lot of the relationships, yeah.

Peter 16:56

And that's a good point. Um, because like I said, I just assume everybody's not a jackass. Um, yeah, that's that's very optimistic of you. Oh no, don't don't don't get me wrong. When I'm driving and when I'm walking out around town, my opinion completely changes about people. As soon as I'm surrounded by people, I'm reminded that that the world is different. But I just assume that people who care about health and well-being, yeah, on who are at least listening to to a podcast like this are not also listening to Andrew Tate. Do you know what I mean?

Sleep, Support, And Arousal Foundations

Courtney 17:28

Uh right, but as you said, most of the listeners you have are are female. And so you're you're and we're talking about being in a relationship with a male partner. And so it, I mean, ideally the women would have their male partner listen to this conversation and be like, hey, this is this is how I'm feeling. This is I'm scared about this. This is like, can we have this conversation? But yeah, it's it's not about your your listeners per se listening to Andrew Tate, it's the the men that they're dating or a relationship with that are, yeah.

Peter 17:58

Yeah, no, for sure. Uh and and that is so how do you then because it's interesting because you're talking much more about relationship management than anything else, right? Because then that's essentially what it is. Uh if if you're if your spouse demands certain things where you say this is the relationship we're in, we're having we're married to each other, so this is part of the deal, this is part of of the bargain, then that will also be the case before you're even pregnant, right? And before you've even had a child, because that's that dynamic is is fundamentally the same. You just add a whole other layer of sleep deprivation, um physical discomfort, and and all that to it.

Courtney 18:44

Um but you recognize I think that's important though to recognize that you see that a lot of male partners don't see that, right? So they still they think, oh, you you pop out a baby and like it kind of like goes back to the way it was, you know, like blah blah blah, like you know, jumbling back. And and there's so many more elements there that are now in place, both emotionally and physically, that have to be addressed in order for that woman to feel safe and to feel to even be get open to enjoying a sexual experience with her partner.

Entitlement, Boundaries, And Power Dynamics

Peter 19:19

Yeah, so that's a that's an excellent point. So, how do we then get because indeed I I still hear the popping the baby out thing a lot, even with my with my postpartum, my my my uh personal training clients or people that I physically see at their homes, uh you know, it's always I I meet the the the the woman and then later on I usually meet the man and the man goes, Yeah, should should pop the baby out, and that that type of attitude. Yeah, and you just go, dude, you do realize it's like being in a car crash without wearing a seatbelt. Is it the damage? The physical impact, not necessarily damage, is the wrong phrase, the physical impact is is significant, the mental impact is. Is is significant as well. It's not just uh you have a baby. That's what we used to think about, you know, women in Asia. That was my generation. That was always what my dad used to say. Uh, which and and I'm not slagging off my dad, but that's what he used to say. Yeah, well, when in Indonesia they work in the rice parties, they they have a kid and they continue straight back to work. But that that's just my generation was raised on that type of that type of example. How do you have how can we improve the thinking of people like that? Because other than turning around going, dude, that is not how it works, um there's very little that gets through to uh men sometimes.

Courtney 20:48

Yeah, I think the question that I um like to ask because sometimes I uh I feel what's the word? Um bold to drop a whole bunch of information on people sometimes. I'm like, okay, that's actually not even close to true. So, but I'm a big fan of consent. And so it's really important for me to get the person's buy-in before I kind of like school them, which you know, like who would agree to that? But uh, they don't know what they're signing up for. It doesn't matter, no. Um, but I think the the the an innocent-ish question, but also a genuine question is do like like, do you actually want to know what happens? Like, or do you want to know my story? Or would you be willing to listen to my experience with that? Because that's how we change minds and hearts. You know, I think back to when um, you know, I grew up in the United States where it was very conservative in the area that I was in, and it was like really bad to be gay. Like it was sinful, it was gross, like it was terrible. And the it started to change, at least in my community, when people got to know actual gay people.

Peter 22:01

Yeah.

Courtney 22:01

Like they weren't these like weirdos that are like trying to convert your kids to like the quote gay agenda. Like they were just your normal coaches and moms and like people, like just normal people who loved and who went to the store and went to the bank and all of those things. And so I think when we make stories more personable and we humanize it, then that's when people start to change the way that they speak and the way that they think about pregnancy and childbirth and postpartum.

Peter 22:30

Yeah, that's that's a that's an interesting one because I think you're definitely right. Um, so how do we then, you know, as as the woman in the relationship, obviously, like I said, I like you said, I assume there's a level of of trust and openness that might not necessarily be there, but that is just, I mean, I've been married for 16 years, and I I can only go on on my experience with with regards to this sort of stuff, and you know, I'm still like except middle-aged white guys, I suppress everything, right? So it's completely different, right? We're talking about the lady needs to express herself. I can keep everything bottled up and have a cold shower and be fine. Uh, but that that is it is still the the how do you sit your spouse down for that conversation? Yeah, I'm I'm I'm guessing you need to warm them up to the idea first of having that conversation.

Courtney 23:31

Yeah, I I think uh it reminds me kind of, I would love to say that most spouses are really receptive, or most partners are really receptive to hey honey, I'd really like to talk to you about something important to me.

Peter 23:43

And well, that makes me clam right up. Sure, right?

Changing Minds Through Stories And Empathy

Courtney 23:46

Yeah, okay. Um, because what ends up happening, it reminds me of like the the Mary Poppins meme where you see like her like telling the kids to put on her shoes, like on their shoes. And it's like the first scene is so like docile and like, honey, please put your shoes on. And then in the next scene, it's like a monster screaming, like, get your damn shows on, you know. And it's like then that's that's what the kids respond to, right? And so unfortunately, sometimes that's what happens in relationships when our partners don't have the same level of buy-in and the same level of they they don't when we lack conviction in something, it is easy for our partners to not be in the present in the conversation and really receive what we have to say. So I would encourage your listeners to have conviction to be like, this is what I need, I am begging you, please, in a respectful, kind way, like this is what I need from you. And if I don't get this from you, these are the consequences that will happen. And because unfortunately, that you know, humans are more motivated to avoid pain than we are to pursue pleasure. And so if I tell my partner, if I do not get help from you with the baby or around the house, I will not be interested in sex. They are much more motivated because that's a pain point for them than if you just tell them that when they you know roll over in bed at night, put their hand on you, and you say, not tonight, honey. Like they are much more likely to make change and give you what you need if you tell them that with conviction and help them to understand the ramifications of their inaction.

Peter 25:31

Yeah, could but then you're not talking about them, just for clarity, uh-huh. You're not talking about the it's from a depriving perspective, right? You're not talking, well, if you don't do this for me, I'm gonna not go to sleep with you for like a week. You're you're explaining it to them in in in a in a different way. As in I I it's not a punishment, it's just if if you don't do this, then I don't feel like correct.

Courtney 25:59

I mean, you can spin it that way, I guess. Like you're you're using um you're withholding sex from me. You're like, or no, I am just telling you, I will literally be like so exhausted that I cannot like open my eyes enough to find you where you are in the bed, and I have no desire to open my legs for you. Like it just yeah, I that it's the reality of it. And it's not in a again, it's how you perceive that information being shared. Could the the partner say, Well, you're withholding sex, you're using sex, you're saying that this is a punishment. No, what I'm telling you are my boundaries, and what I'm telling you are my needs. And if you cannot respect that, then this is like the literal consequences of what's going to happen when those needs aren't met. Not because I don't want that, but because I cannot give that to you because I am empty.

Bite-Size Talks And Ongoing Check-Ins

Peter 26:51

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Just just from a because indeed the the the the spouse can hear it any way they want. 100%. But but but it's it's a different it's a different conversation than just saying that if you don't do this, then I won't do X is consent very much of the well, I'm I'm dealing with two kids. That that's you know that that is how how you tell a teenager, if you don't clean your room, you're not gonna, if you don't finish your plate, you're not gonna get dessert. That is kind of the that example. So so we're not talking about it from from that perspective again for the guys listening, not so much for I'm thinking most women listening to this understand that that point completely.

Courtney 27:34

Yeah, and I because I think those examples, like if you don't eat your veggies, you're not gonna get dessert. That's a punitive approach. Yeah, and and the approach that you're having with your partner isn't based out of it's not a retaliation, it's not a tit for tat. It's a my needs like are not being met. I do not have the capacity to show up for you in this way, but I really want to. I really want to connect with you in this way, I really value the relationship uh sexually that we have. So let's figure out a way that we can you can support me in this postpartum time.

Peter 28:11

Yeah, no, exactly. That that's that's again it makes complete and and utter sense to me. So when we're talking because we've spoke a lot about the the the mental aspect of it, because I think that is you know a little bit more uh interesting, maybe than than the physical aspect, but that's you know, the physical aspect obviously does have a massive impact on all that sort of stuff. So for the woman herself, uh how can you deal with the the physical changes in your body, like you said, the cracked nipples and all that sort of stuff that might make you feel ashamed of your body for want of a better phrase, right? Um, and and it might well be shame, but that's just the first word that popped into my head, or embarrassed, or whatever you want to call it, or not as desirable as, even though you yourself might well be in the mood, right? That's export that option, but you think correctly or incorrectly that your spouse may well not be. How can you deal with that situation?

Managing Overwhelm And Communication Limits

Courtney 29:21

I think it's important that we give our spouses or our partners permission to adapt to our body that looks looks differently. So I think there's an expectation of well, you're supposed to love me no matter what I look like, whether I've got cracked nipples or you know, uh third degree tear, or I'm you know, like in bikini, teeny tiny shape or whatever. Like I that you you just went through a massive transformation and a lot of partners witness that transformation. And so giving them time to adjust is also okay. And again, I it's it doesn't mean that they think that there's anything wrong with you. It's just you you're you're physically different, and that's okay. And so asking them like, hey, I know that my boobs are a lot bigger or they're a lot smaller, or like I'm a little bit fluffier here, or you know, like it's a little bit like even like inner course itself, like when you get to that part, like it feels a little bit different. Like, do you want to talk about that? I pretending like that doesn't exist is isn't helpful. You know, I think it's always best to be honest about those conversations. But if you're if you're in a place where you don't know how to articulate that, if you are the male partner and you're like, yeah, yeah, I'm not really attracted to her body right now. Like that's okay. Just be very aware of those feelings and try to get like figure out where you want to get to. So I don't ever tell somebody to be like, well, that's not okay to feel like that. And that's just you know, too bad. Her body's beautiful. Can't you see that? She just gave birth to a freaking human. Like that, it's not those his feelings of like maybe not being as aroused by his partner. It's okay, those are valid feelings. And acknowledging them, being aware of them, working through them, if that's what he wants, that that's important too. So I think that that's something that a lot of times doesn't get talked about as well. Is um, I mean, there's it like obviously so many conversations need to be had around postpartum sexual intimacy and postpartum bodies. And because there's so many layers here for both the woman who gave birth and her partner that saw her give birth and or her body now and adjusting to that, like it's just so much more than okay, well, like mentally get on board because you got the okay from the doctor. Like, all right, guys, good luck.

Peter 31:47

Yeah, because because that is genuinely what it really seems like, and um yeah, to be fair, like I said, when uh when when uh when we we uh connected to to to set this up, I'm like 230 episodes into this podcast. I've done this for a while, this is like a few years going because I only do one a week, and it never came up as a subject, right? And and I've had some kind of some conversations, but so so I started looking into it a little bit, just a little bit, because I don't grab that much, because I'd much rather listen to an expert explaining to me rather than me googling stuff for an hour or two hours thinking, thinking I actually have some knowledge that I just simply don't have, you know, or aircraft doing my own research, not that type of stuff. Um, I'd much rather have someone like you come on and explain to me how this stuff works rather than me thinking I already have any of the answers. Uh but it is as soon as you start looking into this, it's a minefield of like you said, there are so many layers, yes, and it is remarkably complex. So, how do how do you suggest and like you say communication is key, right? Everybody younger than me kind of knows this, and you're clearly much younger than I am, and and therefore, therefore, you you're from a different generation and you have been trained, and therefore you understand communication is key, whereas my era is more the you know, keep your feelings to yourself, type of type of era. We're ahead of where my parents were, but that's it. So, but how do you even with something that is so complicated where there's so many things happening? This is not a let's sit down on the couch for an hour and and have a chat about this sort of thing, right? Yeah, because that's again from from the male perspective, and I think in a lot of relationships, that is kind of what you're getting. If my wife says to me, then just personalize the experience. My wife says to me, Can we have a chat for a bit? First of all, I think I'm in trouble, right? That's the go-to. I've done something and I don't know what, but I fucked something up. Um then we're gonna have a conversation about something, which I always want to like to be a 15-20-minute conversation. I've got stuff to do, and I I the I like to have chats, you know. Have you seen the latest episode of the bear and that type of conversation? I'm very comfortable with meaningful stuff, not so much, but this is not a one conversation sort of right. It is an ongoing communication sort of thing, isn't it?

Stress Cycles, Coping, And Self-Care

Courtney 34:22

Yep, absolutely. And I think that's something that knowing what your partner's emotional capacity is and and respecting it. So if I know that my partner like taps out after about 20 minutes of these kind of conversations, then I need to make sure that I respect that and keep the conversation, like titrate them. So again, it's like the sex ed conversations that I coach parents about. It's you do, it's not a fire hose. We are not giving them all this information in one sitting. It is small bits, breadcrumbs throughout their entire childhood and adolescence. And it's really the same in a relationship of, you know, how am I feeling like postpartum? You know, if I, gosh, like I'm so like I feel so gross and I'm so sick. And sorry, not postpartum during during their pregnancy. Feel so gross, I'm so sick. And then I I'm loving my body in, you know, the second trimester because now you see this human that I've created or am creating. And then the third trimester hits and I feel like a whale. And so those are the times that you have those small, short conversations of hey, like and either partner can initiate it. Like, I'm really struggling with like seeing myself as sexy. This is like, could you just like reassure me or tell me like why you think I'm beautiful? Or and I know that as we continue throughout this pregnancy, I'm gonna really need your support to reassure me that I'm that you still find me desirable. So, and then that's the partner's job to be like, okay, note it. Set a freaking timer on your phone, like every Monday at 10 a.m., I'm gonna send her a text of how beautiful I think she is, or I'm gonna leave a note, or like be proactive, like so that you again, but again, it's not like we're sitting down and having hours-long conversations about how much I hate my body or how scary this is or whatever. And this, it's it's just having those conversations every week, every other week, whatever it is that you can do. And then by the time you're at the childbirth and postpartum, that this is normal conversations that have been having. I'm telling you what I need. You're showing me that you're able to meet those needs at some level, right? Giving feedback, like, hey, it really meant a lot to me that like you've done a really good job of telling me how beautiful or how much you desire me, or buying me gifts or whatever it is that you need. And so now that we're in postpartum, and I feel still like a whale. And now I have a baby that never sleeps, and I'm sleep deprived, and I just never feel like I'm gonna go get back to myself. I don't even know who I am anymore. Like, right, all of these existential things are triggered with within us. Um, being able to give our partners that time, that again, even if it's 15 to 20 minutes and being honest about that. Say, like, I really love these conversations, but I find that after 20 minutes, I feel overwhelmed by the amount of information that you're sharing with me, and then I shut down. So, can we just have these conversations last about 15 to 20 minutes and know that I'm listening to everything that you're saying and really trying to be present for you and really thinking of ways that I can help support you?

Quick Fixes Vs. Real Reconnection

Peter 37:24

Yeah, because that's a good point. It's because it's quite often, and again, personal experience only. This is for me, it's the the overwhelm of information is is is is quite a common one, right? Stuff builds up because everybody's busy. Uh so stuff builds up over the course of a week, you know. Um, especially a lot of my listeners are are from the states, and you know, paternity leaves and maternity leaves and all that sort of those leaves just sucked. So husband goes straight back to work in 60, 80 hour weeks because now there's a baby to take care of. Uh the woman is at home with a baby, she sleep deprived, there's still a house to run because you know no one's considered planning for postpartum during the pregnancy and all that sort of stuff. And that means you get one hour sit-down a week, and it's very tempting to have all that information come out in in one burst. Um, like you said, it sounds a lot healthier the way you do it when you're already establish open lines of communication before the the mind of having a child has actually been detonated, you know, do it during the pregnancy. And um, because I've and again, this this is probably ties in. I see a lot of the you know, you have your antenatal classes and all that sort of stuff, the the Lamas classes and all that sort of thing. Those are the ones the husband tends to go to, or the spaskids tend to go to uh during the pregnancy. Uh, but they tend to be the only ones, right? So that's an hour a week, and you just sit and breathe a little bit. There's no meaningful communication happening beyond the absolute believer in this class.

Courtney 39:11

I can I can do, I do not have to be emotionally available for those classes.

Peter 39:16

No, exactly. You just show up. I have to take an hour of work, and then I show up and we breathe a little bit, and then we complain about the class, and then we get the hell out of it. You you get phone numbers from other mommies so that you can have coffees postpartum and when all your other friends are are are working. Um that emotional, how do you other than you uh just to make sure you are on board? Because this is this is a even before you have kids, you should have this conversation, right? Don't don't get me wrong. I understand that there's probably a whole bunch of millennials listening to me going, Jesus, you're so old, Pete. Right? We already have these conversations, we're much more in touch with our feelings than than your generation. Used to be, but I'm thinking there's a lot of people that also not so much, right?

Courtney 40:03

So, yes, not so much.

Peter 40:05

How do you start those conversations during the pregnancy when you're not used to having those conversations?

Work, Patience, And Shared Responsibility

Courtney 40:12

And when it's very much a time of doing, yeah, I would say I like to use um so external sources as a buffer. So, you know, I was listening to this podcast and they talked about how important it is to have these like mini meetings or like mini 15-minute like I don't know, pep talk sessions or like feelings discussions or whatever, however you want to sell it. Or I was reading an article, or I was talking to Joan, or I was talking to Malik. Like you use third-party things versus like I'm really worried that like we're gonna like end up divorced and like this relationship's never gonna work. Like, because we never talk, right? Okay, well, well, okay, now I'm just versus using that third party information depending on what your partner values, um and using that as a way to introduce a concept that's always super effective.

Peter 41:05

Yeah, that that's it even makes sense to me.

Courtney 41:10

Hey, Courtney, is my wife put you up to this?

Peter 41:13

Yes, it is it is one of those, it's one of those one of those conversations. Wait a minute, you know, it's also one of those where were you 20 years ago type conversations.

Courtney 41:23

I know exactly. That's great.

Peter 41:25

Because we don't get taught this stuff in school, right?

Courtney 41:28

This is no, we don't. We don't I think that's important to remember to give ourselves some grace. If you're not a relationship pro, you're not a relationship expert, like that's okay, you're not taught those tools, nobody is offering that. Like parents is what we what we see modeled is what we adapt and what we perpetuate. And so, unless you know something gets thrown in to change that momentum and that cycle, that it's not gonna change.

Peter 41:54

So no, and and I think it's I think Grace is is is a good point. Uh, the only social media, because also social media platform that I actively use, other than Fred's, I'm on Fred's these days, but it's it's uh is uh Reddit. And I don't know if you're on Reddit, but yeah, yeah, everything is a red flag on Reddit, right? It's so if someone puts up a post and they say something along the line of um my wife wants to have a conversation with me about postpartum, blah blah blah. She's not pregnant yet, but this is how she feels. There will be at least 20, 30 comments below said post, probably from 14 to 16 year olds, but nobody knows. Oh, dude, that's a red flag, you need to get out of the relationship right now, right? And vice versa. It's it's the same as when when uh a woman posts and says, My husband is not as present as I would like him to be postpartum. Yeah, it's always why did you have a child with this man? Get the hell out of there whilst you still can. Um, yeah, I think allowing for a bit of grace and realizing that everybody's human and everybody's very, very fallible, at least I am, um, is probably a good place to start from.

Courtney 43:04

Yeah, absolutely. That is yes, I I I am appreciative and grateful for grace from other people. It is the least that I can do to offer it to them as well.

Closing Thoughts And Resources

Peter 43:16

Yeah, because it's it's it's so easy to forget when you're in the moment of say overwhelm postpartum, uh, especially. I mean, I I see this a lot where people where women tend to be massively overwhelmed, some men as well, to be fair. They're just dealing with the overwhelm of not sleeping, not feeling right, not eating uh well because they physically just can't, right? This is not a not a blame game type of thing. Um in that moment of overwhelm, it's really difficult to have a rational, meaningful discussion. Um and it's sometimes very tempting to just offload. Yeah, um how do you prevent yourself, if at all possible, from actually just offloading on your partner? And and like I said, this this goes both ways. I've I've seen this with men doing this in the direction of their wife uh or or or or their the of of uh of of the woman and woman in the direction of the man. So I'm not saying that this is a yeah, um how how do you deal with that?

Courtney 44:25

I think being aware that postpartum is one of the most heightened times of a relationship, and so setting yourself up for success as much as you can. So uh working with a therapist or a coach or having like a solid support system, knowing that, like, okay, I need to process these things. So I need to physically move. I know for a lot of women who process like they physically process their stress and they can't do that maybe because they're recovering from you know a certain injury or a uh incision or whatever it is, and they're like, hey, you you need to stay off your feet for as much as you can, or you can't lift more than five pounds or whatever it is. You know, finding alternative things to do, meditating, journaling, praying, chanting. I mean, getting creative, drawing, uh, that's a great one, actually. Coloring, that's a really soothing way to do uh do things, laughing, crying, you know, giving yourself permission for your body to complete that stress cycle is so, so important during that postpartum period. So I think if you are, that's when I see couples really cash a lot, like conflict a lot, is when those they're they're not taking care, like exercising self-care when it comes to like stress management.

Peter 45:46

Yeah, stress management is is one of those things the that we talk about quite a bit on here. Um just because you know it is it is the key. And again, it comes it ties into to the whole sexual health thing, you know. When you're ridiculously stressed out, and like you mentioned with regards to fight or flight and all that sort of stuff, it is not uh it is not inherently uh yeah, like you said, it it kind of shuts down when when when when you don't manage that side of things well. Yep. So where are you on the because this is the recommendation I came across when I did my 20-30 minutes of let's have a look? What let's let's think of an intro question. That's what we usually want to look 20 minutes. One of the top pieces of advice, and this is not from a reputable website, so I'm not going to repeat the what who the website is.

Courtney 46:40

Let's not even pretend.

Peter 46:41

No, let's not pretend this is one of those women's advice websites, and you know, they're all terrible, right? They're they're all written for clickbait much more than anything else, right? One of the best ways to connect, and I'm paraphrasing here, but one of the best ways to connect is to just plan a weekend away with your husband, and you will immediately feel a lot sexier. And that was the phrase because that's the one that stuck out, which is how I know it's not repetable. Immediately because the the the immediately was the thing. Well uh how long do you tell people this process tends to take? Um and I know it's a how long is a piece of string type of question, but how long do you say, okay, this is this is oh this is completely normal for it is to take a few months or however long?

Courtney 47:29

Yeah, I mean, so I would what do you say when somebody comes to you and says, Well, how long will it take me to lose weight?

Peter 47:35

Well, I I always the effort you put in, right? And on all that sort of stuff, yeah. I I like to be um uh to be fair, I haven't done weight loss in ultimate in a long time. But no, but yeah, yeah, it's it's a fact. I always just go, yeah, it's it's how long is a piece of string, right? It's it's uh where are you now? Where are we going? How much effort do you are you going to put in? How much effort is your environment going to put in? It depends on a multitude of factors. Um, I never say immediately, which is how I know I'm a better person alternative than most people, because I don't go, well, tomorrow, right?

Courtney 48:09

Um your Amazon body will be delivered tomorrow. Yes, exactly that.

Peter 48:13

Yes.

Courtney 48:13

Yeah, I mean, I it it depends. So the person who wrote that, I I I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. So I think that they had good intentions, and maybe for some people, they may immediately feel a momentary when they're on a weekend away. But it is it is a quick fix that is not a long-term solution. And this is what I tell, this is the answer that I give too when it comes to you know, uh women who have low sexual desire is yep, you can buy the toy and you can go on a weekend away and you can buy the watch porn and all that, but those are quick fixes and you are addressing a very deep-seated um chronic issue. And so, yes, a weekend away, you may immediately momentarily, that's the keyword there, momentarily, feel at ease. But just like if you know, if you had somebody come to you and said, Hey, I want to lose 100 pounds versus I want to lose 20 pounds, the amount of work and effort and all of those things and money is gonna be vastly different. And it's the exact same situation when I work with individuals and with couples. If I have years and years and years of frustrations and resentment and poor horrific communication, lots of betrayal and distrust, that's like trying to lose 100 pounds. If I have a couple that they're both emotionally aware, they've done some work themselves, but this is a new transition phase and they they've never been here before, they don't know what to do, and they're really needing some tools and support. That's like losing 10 to 15 pounds. So again, it's that the the results are gonna are very different. Um, but they can happen.

Peter 49:59

Yeah, I I always I I always think with this type of stuff, especially when we're talking about what we're talking about. If you work on it and both are willing to work on it, then there's usually a resolution somewhere down the line.

Courtney 50:12

Um magic can happen.

Peter 50:14

Yes, exactly. It's it is not uh, but it always takes work, right? And that is fundamentally the message. This is not the stuff is not gonna fall out of the sky uh magically, no, and you know that's that's the thing, and that that's that's for me was the was interesting because like you said, and it kind of comes back to where we were at the very start, and that it feels like most of the advice giving with regards to you know the question is always when can you have sex again post-part? It is never anything else. That is the baseline question that is that gets Googled. Um the answer is still fundamentally well, when you have put enough work into feeling comfortable from from both sides and being at ease or comfortable in in the new situation because the situation is so massively, massively different.

Courtney 51:18

Yeah. And and even then, too, like I know a lot of women who postpartum six weeks, they're like, I never want to have sex again. And so and I so I want to acknowledge that those feelings are a lot of times present. Um, and then right, that adds a whole layer of guilt and shame and and frustration and and whatnot. So I I'm a big believer that sexual sexual um sexual activity, whether that's by yourself or with a partner, especially if you're in a relationship, is really a healthy and um I don't want to use the word necessary because I don't necessarily believe that. Um it is a beneficial component of a relationship. But if those desires are changing, then those conversations need to be had.

Peter 52:05

Right. Yeah, no, that's that's a good point. I think that's an excellent, an excellent point to come to a conclusion on. I think we've covered a tremendous amount. Like I said, uh when it comes to this stuff, like I said, I'm I'm I'm aware where I am in life, and I'm always very careful when I pick my words. And for anybody listening, I know I said man and wife an awful lot. That's not what I meant. Other people are much, but uh, that is just my middle-aged white guy brain trying to think of the words. I um doesn't matter whether you're man or wife, man or man, and woman and woman, and all that, or married or not, I don't care. Um, every now and again I'll get an email from a first-time listener that just says, Yeah, you use that phrase a lot. I know, I'm working on it, I'm doing the best I can. Um was there anything else you wanted to touch on?

Courtney 52:54

Oh, I I think just again, if anything I could get, like I've I have three kids, I have been there, so like I remember this phase. Gosh, it is it is a really hard phase, and it feels like it will never end, and that you've lost yourself and there's so much pressure to be so many things. I just like please know that you are amazing, your body is amazing, and you are deserving of incredible, beautiful, pleasurable things.

Peter 53:22

That's a very happy, uh, happy point. So I will press stop record here, which as always is exactly what I did. Thanks very much to Courtney for coming on. Like I said, that was one of the more just because I'm an old white guy, like I said several times throughout my conversation with her. This is not the sort of thing I'm used to discussing. And I think we got a lot of information out uh out there. Eventually, we plowed Courtney bravely plowed ahead and knows what she's dealing with. Uh she plowed ahead and we got all the information out. Thanks very much to Courtney for coming on. It is much, much, much appreciated. Like I said, the book is called Not Tonight Honey. Subtitle Uh Why Women Don't Want Sex and We What We Can Actually Do About It. Uh, you can find uh I will link to her website, Instagram, TikTok, and Facebook, and all that sort of stuff. Check her out, check the book out. This is a sort of conversation, like I said, that uh like I said, in the podcast description that you might want to get your spouse to listen to as well. Anyways, that is all for me for another week. You take care of yourself. I'll be back in touch next week. Obviously, as always, Peter at healthypostnatal body.com. If you have any questions or comments, give me a shout. Right, you take care, new bit of music. Bye now.