Redesigning Work, And Self, After Birth with Rebecca Gleed

This week I am delighted to be joined by Rebecca "Becky" Gleed (LMFT, PMH-C), Founder of The Perinatal & Reproductive Wellness Group

Becky is amazing, she's a therapist, author, podcast host and just overall a fount of knowledge.

We're discussing many, many things including;

What the postpartum period actually is.

The difficulties going back to work postpartum.

Selfcare, separation anxiety.

Work place supports.

Post partum body image issues.

And much, MUCH, more.

You're going to LOVE Becky so check the conversation out now :)

You can find Becky everywhere online;

The website

The Perinatal & Reproductive perspectives podcast!

The Employed Motherhood Instagram page

As always; HPNB only has 5 billing cycles.

So this means that you not only get 3 months FREE access, no obligation!

BUT, if you decide you want to do the rest of the program, after only 5 months of paying $10/£8 a month you now get FREE LIFE TIME ACCESS! That's $50 max spend, in case you were wondering.

Though I'm not terribly active on  Instagram and Facebook you can follow us there. I am however active on Threads so find me there!

And, of course, you can always find us on our YouTube channel if you like your podcast in video form :)

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Email peter@healthypostnatalbody.com if you have any questions, comments or want to suggest a guest/topic      

Transcript

Defining The Perinatal Period;

Peter 1:34

So you're a perinatal mental health professional and do a lot of work around women returning to work, which is one of the things I do want to cover. So, what sort of issues do you come across the most when it comes to that?

SPEAKER_00 1:45

Uh return to work.

Peter 1:46

With regards to returning to work and mental health and support people need and all that type of thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Absolutely. So the perinatal period is conception through at least in America is one year postpartum, and other countries, which I think are doing much better than us, can be up to three years.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Yeah.

Unique Paths Back To Work;

SPEAKER_00 2:06

So I'm covering really anything from you know postpartum anxiety, birth trauma, infertility, postpartum depression. You know, for you specifically, some of the audience might appreciate relating in a new way to your body and you know, trying on these different hats of my identity is shift, and how do I relate with this, you know, new, you know, way of wetting myself when I go for my run, which I so value. Um and so really doing anything from role transition work to attachment based with how do I now attach to this dependent baby? Uh, and then the return to work is so individualized. I don't think I've ever met with a birthing individual who had the same story. Some women are going back to work at six weeks, some are doing a power pause and returning to work in two years. It really depends. And then it can be so, so different uh one mom to the next, even if it may look similar. For example, you know, did you have a cesarean birth or a vaginal birth? And you're having to then sit in a chair for eight hours a day when you've got this painful cesarean birth scar. You know, that's or perhaps you had some second or third degree tearing. What is that gonna look like? Or if you had the ability to wait three to six months before returning to work, those are notorious for those baby sleep regressions. So are you returning back to work with a fatigued, tired body? It really just I've never seen the same place twice.

Body Image And Cognitive Reframing;

Peter 4:00

No, and and that's a really important, uh, important point that that you're bringing up there, because obviously everybody is listening from across many countries. Um, you know, a large percentage of my listeners are American, and your healthcare system sucks, and therefore you return to work much, much sooner than anybody in what I like to call the civilized world, which is everywhere except America when it comes to postpartum health. Um and then we have in the UK, a year is quite common, six months to a year before people return to work. Um and in other countries it it can be a lot shorter. So I suppose they're all different, like you said, it's different stages of especially mental health and body image, I suppose, postpartum recovery, isn't it? Uh as in returning after six weeks. That that is soon. I mean, that is a really, really quick return to work. Um, so how do you deal because the most of the most of the people I deal with postpartum have let's say one or two confidence issues, like you like you said, they don't just from not being familiar with where they find themselves, if it's especially if it's their first first child. So how what what advice would you give to them? How how how would you deal with that side of things?

Systems, Leave Policies, And Stigma;

SPEAKER_00 5:25

Yeah, absolutely. Just off the top of my head, I think of you know, perhaps your belly, you know, your uterus hasn't really contracted yet. Instead of looking down at that and saying, Oh, that's disgusting, some of the cognitive restructuring could be something more gentle, like, whoa, my body just created life, and I'm gonna be a little bit more compassionate and patient as it continues to return, or even with stretch marks. That's another common experience of I will never get back in a bikini. Okay, well, how do we relate to these scars in new ways? Of these are my mama stripes, these are can have a new name, these can be a constant reminder of whoa, now I have my son or my daughter. And that's that's the reminder, that's the visual instead of those negative beliefs about your body. They can be transformed. The other piece that I work a lot with birthing individuals around is it's gonna be an adjustment. You're you have a a child now and you're working. You may not have two hours to go do your hot yoga session. It might be, you know, 15 minutes here, or maybe you're incorporating the baby into the yoga session now, or it's a walk in the morning and then some body movement in the evening. So really figuring out, okay, well, what does your workday look like? And how can you is it a standing desk? Is it instead of going to the cafeteria, you're doing a walk around the building and you know, finding other ways to graze as you eat instead of it? Really just depends on the person, it depends on their circumstances. But I say, you know, this is it's an adjustment and it's a transition that's that's part of the process is reconstructing something that's gonna serve you well, serve your body well.

Peter 7:33

Yeah, because because that is and that's a good point. Because let's be honest, uh, I did an interview with someone a while ago, Catla Kohee. Um, I remember her name. So sometimes I remember people's names. Um, I will link to it in the podcast description. But and and she was talking about transitions, uh about how women go through transitions significantly more often than men do, right? Because basically, we go from boy to if we're luckily uh if if if we're lucky, we hit puberty at some stage, and then hopefully, if if all goes well, we'll grow out of the being a 12-year-old boy, and we turn into some form of adult. Um, not necessarily a given, as but you know that is the process. Yeah, and then at some stage we have a midlife crisis, right? And and we buy a sports car or we do something stupid to go skydiving, and then after, but those are pretty much the only transitional phases we tend to have. Um, whereas for women, life is just one long transitional phase, um you know, going through all those steps, but we're adding you know, childbirth and and all that uh all that type of stuff. And yet we we as a society, you know, yay, patriarchy, we are remarkably remarkably poorly prepared for for that type of thing, especially if we don't make allowances for it. Yeah, um, societal pressure is very much what it is with regards to um people who've just given birth, right? There's a there's the societal expectation is insane, yeah. Um, so how can we better prepare for that as individuals living in that society? Because I'm all for you know burning the whole thing down and starting from scratch again, but let's be honest, that's most likely not going to happen anytime soon.

Practical Workplace Supports;

SPEAKER_00 9:33

Yeah, I think first and foremost, having conversations and acknowledging it that this is a major transition. You know, I was talking, I have a couple interns on my team, and they were telling me about their developmental lifespan class. And they said, Becky, there's not even a section in there to capture the perenatal period, but menopause, menopause. And so I think really it's just having conversations, shedding light on, oh, this is a thing that women go through. So I appreciate podcasts. I wrote a book called Employed Motherhood, just really getting it out of the garage. This I think it's such an isolating experience as well that it's almost like we're so glad to be out of it. We don't even want to touch it, we don't want to talk about it. And so it can end up being almost like I hate that sometimes it's hazing that, oh, you just wait, just you know, hold on tight, you know, stay on the roller coaster, you'll get off at some point, ha ha ha. But really, my hope is that we can have bring more light to this, make it less taboo to talk about. And then it's like the practical piece like, can the can the HR department of like provide some materials, some support? Can we actually create parental leave in the United States? Can we, you know, figure out what supports look like? I'm a perenatal mental health professional that's a certification through Postpartum Support International, which is an international organization. But this didn't start until the late 80s. And there are still it's a it's in its infancy, it's growing very fast, thank goodness. But even to find a specialized therapist who can support women in this phase of life is a newer thing. So to answer your question, therapy, getting businesses on board, having grassroot conversations, you know, making it less taboo, reduce the hazing, you know, and then keep keep iterating, keep improving.

Confidence, Pay, And Bias At Work;

Peter 11:54

Yeah, because that is an interesting one, because I've I have some corporate clients that are that that I work with, and I've done interviews with um with experts in the states that are really big on liaising with corporations to employ people who've just given birth, um, and make allowances for that. So set up a room where you can express and and and all that, all just all that practical stuff, but we still seem to be quite a way away. Like you said, the conversations are being had, but it's like the practical steps aren't necessarily being made yet.

SPEAKER_00 12:32

Absolutely, yeah.

Peter 12:34

And and it is really like what you were saying earlier, that especially if you return to work very early on, six to eight weeks postpartum, and you still have, let's say, one or two pelvic floor problems and leakage and and all that type of stuff. Yeah, the confidence and how that affects people is often not taken particularly well into account. It's quite often when people return to work, they're kind of just expected to go straight back into it without taking into account that, like what you said, it could be sleepless nights, it could be just not feeling yourself. And we don't tend to make a lot of allowances for that.

SPEAKER_00 13:17

Absolutely. I'm even thinking practically, at least in the Washington, DC area, it's a joke of start calling daycare centers the moment you get a positive pregnancy test because you're gonna be waitlisted, you may or may not get a slot, or you have to start you know interviewing all pairs at this point, and maybe they'll accept, maybe they've it's very stressful. So in an already stressful major life transition, then we're dealing with the systemic practical pieces, and then to operationalize it even further is what about separation anxiety from your baby? What about learning to use a breast pump? Do you do you even have an option at work that's private and supportive of those 15, 20 minute breaks to support pumping milk? Do you have a refrigerator? Just some of the practical pieces that you don't even think about, and you're expected to focus at work and then at meetings, and then you go home, and then you have your second job, and you're supposed to, if you're partnered, maintain that relationship and somehow produce on three hours of sleep, and then your baby gets their first cold, and then you're just like, I give up. So I I love that I love that question.

Peter 14:43

Yeah, because because that is because that's a big thing. I remember when COVID just hit, so 2020. So the uh at least in the UK, that was 2020 when the restrictions were just in place. I was talking to somebody who worked with a charity, and I won't name their names, but they're very much a women's rights charity, and they do some awesome work. And I I said to them, Should we work together? As in, can I do something for your members? Because you know, the postpartum side of things and how that affects women at work, it affects your finances. As in, if you if you can't function as well at work and it affects your confidence and and your stress levels are through the roof, you're not going to waltz in and ask for a pay rise. You you're just not, right? And whereas, you know, I, middle-aged white guy, as I point out on every podcast, I have middle-aged white guy confidence, right? I can be tired and I can be terrible at my job, but when my bills are going up, I'm gonna walk up to my boss and go, hey boss, pay me more money.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

Right.

Antenatal Prep And Skill Framing;

Peter 15:45

And and because that is what I am bred with, so to speak, right? It might be completely unfounded, but that that that is what my generation, a middle-aged white guy, is really, really good at. Um and you know, I know there are that it is really difficult when your confidence is shot, and you're not feeling yourself and you're feeling kind of lost when you're still doing good work, because let's be honest, most people who have returned to work are actually doing better work than those who have stayed because they feel they have something to prove and they work a bit harder, and they tended to be smarter people, anyways. Um, is the the for them to then fall behind on um on the pay scale and all the sort of subjects to pay? It's it's a really it's that's a this has practical consequences, and what the charity was saying is yeah, we're not really interested, right? We just want women to get equal pay. Yeah, you're missing the point, right? People are still massively missing, like what you said, just how complicated that situation is for birthing people for people who've just given birth and who's just had uh had a child, uh, and even adoptive parents, to be honest, with because that is a whole other kettle of kettle of fish.

SPEAKER_01 17:09

Yeah.

Peter 17:11

So where do you find because again, I'd like all I'd like all businesses to get on board immediately, right? But but unfortunately, they're rather slow on the uptake. Um, so where do you find the practical steps that people can actually do, especially antenatal?

SPEAKER_01 17:32

Yeah.

Peter 17:32

To to prepare, because you know, when we're in when we're at that six-week stage, we're kind of already too late. Because, like you said, you're already stressed. Now we just added the whole layer of stress. What sort of preparation from from a mental health perspective, especially, do you think is useful to do anti Natal?

SPEAKER_00 17:49

Yeah, I love that question. I really try to help folks see their value and worth and identify how how some of this wisdom and experience during pregnancy, postpartum, are actually positive and valuable skills to transfer to work. And part of that is number one, identifying that for yourself. Wow, I'm really good at creatively solutioning. I'm really empathetic now that, oh my gosh, I have this little one. I have a new empathy for parents or working parents, and then being very mindful around how you then narrate that in the workplace. So really highlighting your value as opposed to, yeah, I'm gonna be so terrible at this project because I'm so sleep deprived and my baby's sick, as opposed to, you know, I have so much wisdom here, and my capacity for creativity and solution is at an all-time high, given my recent experience with the School of Hard Knocks of parenthood, go me. Right. And so you get to come from an empowered place, do the work, work with a therapist or a coach or you know, someone who can, or just you do some of this solo as you know, you in the journal, but then really highlight some of these skills that are developed during pregnancy and postpartum that are so transferable to you doing well at work and and being a contributor and someone who's valuable. Parents are rock stars, like they have so much to offer.

Documentation, Allies, And Protections;

Peter 19:43

Oh yeah, no, I and I completely agree. And that that brings me on to a point that it's not even just for for mothers, not even for parents, but I find that a lot of the a lot of the women I I I I work with have the tendency to talk themselves down a little bit. And I work with a tremendous I I always say I have a PhD. I'm a pretty I'm not an idiot, but I'm usually when I work with my clients, I'm usually the dumbest person in the room. And and I'm not saying that to blow smoke up my clients by hookies. I'm genuinely work, and they're not all. I mean, they are within their field, they are genuine experts, they are the business, and yet, right? It's I think it's maybe it it seems to be to me uh to be a distinctly uh a trait that mainly many women have is to put themselves down a little bit as being ditzy, baby brain, and and all that type of stuff. How do you get because that that works against you in the workplace, right? Especially when let's say you have an unenlightened boss and just goes right and that just goes away to say, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I want to be nice, but when you work for a jackass that just doesn't yeah, that doesn't that takes that that uses that type of language as an opportunity to not appreciate what you're doing, right? Because that is I used to work for companies, I used to work for IBM and all those places, and they were that type of environment. If you showed any weakness, oh yeah, your four percent just became a three percent pay rise, yeah, because we can get away with it, and you've already kind of put yourself in a position of being awkward and uncomfortable by saying that actually, you know what, I'm I'm amazing, like like you said. So I don't personally, I don't think people can do that by themselves necessarily, right? I think affirmations are great, but we need a therapist to talk us through that, yeah, that type of stuff. So, do you work a lot with people to do that type of thing?

SPEAKER_00 21:58

Absolutely, I have a lot. Of you know, one of my niches and sub-specialties is working with ambitious women.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

Right.

Identity Shift And Integration;

SPEAKER_00 22:05

So there's a lot of even in the workplace, and I've I've unfortunately seen the discrimination firsthand and through many of my clients that are let go or put on a performance improvement plan because they're not staying till they have an actual cutoff of daycare is going to close at 6:15. You may not be able to attend that six o'clock happy hour anymore. And there are consequences to that, often that are grossly unfair and discriminatory, whether it's a pip or you're terminated or you're demoted, because the system is not there to support you. And so there are some organizations. One is like Fairy Godboss, that's there's some underground platforms for women to tap into to say, hey, what are some uh corporations or organizations that actually support working moms? And so it's an unfortunate reality, especially in America, but making sure you're in an environment that supports maybe you're doing a split shift where you're getting off of five, but you're gonna log back in a couple hours on the weekends or on the evenings, if if necessary. Not ideal, but need be there's some flexibility there. Also, I'm all about finding an ally, someone who's got your back and that you trust in the workplace and being very mindful of who those people are and cultivating those relationships intentionally. Also, some protections can be, you know, just write yourself a memo of what happened. And so if you need some, you know, something that's time stamped and something that's documented, you can have that later. In the case that you need to go to HR and say, hey, this is what I'm experiencing. I think it's either discrimination or, you know, there's something happening here that feels a little unsettling. So I think there are some practical ways to approach it without doing something extreme like quitting or you know, changing industries. It it doesn't have to be so extreme. I also don't want to miss an opportunity to validate like this is a very real experience that many and it's it's hard because it's such a season of change, and you already feel oftentimes vulnerable and just tired and maybe in pain, and there's so much on your plate that gosh, these organizations who support new moms, like go them. Like, let's let's take a minute to there's some great organizations doing well at this, and some that could be doing a lot better.

Self‑Care, Sleep, And Boundaries;

Peter 24:55

Oh, yeah, and I think the the ones that are really good, like I have a corporate client, and I don't mind giving them a shout-out. Serious logic. Nobody nobody will buy anything from them anyways. They they they make computer chips or phones or god knows what they do. Basically, the basic it's one of those companies that's just all PhDs, you know. One of those everyone you bump into has a PhD. There's all like big bang theory level um level level people. Um, and the social interactions are as awkward as those on the big bang theory, to be fair. But it's it's but they're crushing that that side of things, they're they're doing really, really well, and yet you still find that um for a lot of people the the way decisions can be made can be quite difficult when you're not in the room, right? I remember from my time at IBM, long time ago, to be fair, you could so long, it was that long ago you could still smoke at work in the UK, and that that is quite a way you had smoking rooms. If you did not smoke, if you weren't in the smoking room, you weren't getting that that next project, it just wasn't happening because that's where the decisions were made, right? Um, so we started to have we started to see people appearing in the smoking room even though they didn't smoke because they'd figured it out and they stank a cigarette the the entire day. But what we find, what we then found is that that the a lot of people that don't appear in the smoking room for very sensible reasons, as in they are parents, and they don't necessarily want to kill themselves with second-hand smoke and pass it on to their kids and all that type of stuff, right? They were being left out, or at other companies, because I am in Scotland. You know, if you don't play golf, it's it's it's not happening for you. Yeah, I mean this sounds remarkably 1980s, typical executive. Let's all smoke a big cigar and get the deal done. So the deal, but there are still companies that work like that. When it was in telecoms, that was the way that worked. If you didn't play golf, yeah, it's not happening for you. And I don't play golf because I'm Dutch. Um, then we don't do golf courses. But parents, like you said, they leave at five o'clock because they've got stuff to do, so they may well get all their work done, right? Because, like I said, usually they're better workers, they're much, much better workers than the jackass that just shows up because they have something to work for, right? Fundamentally, the nice guy, the funny guy at happy hour is hardly ever the best worker the business has. There's a reason here, there's a reason he's the funny guy, right? He has to be. Um, whereas the person has to go home and can't grab a drink at happy hour or or do the meeting or or whatever it is, is usually the better worker. But if you then combine that with an element of feeling insecure and feeling stressful and on and all that sort of stuff about returning to work, or then it gets really difficult for people to deal with that on a day-to-day basis, and you almost can't help but take that home with you, right? Um, as in sitting on the sofa, and I've had these conversations, sitting on the sofa going, everybody hates me, I hate myself, I hate my kids, because you know you haven't necessarily bonded with your baby yet, because that believe it or not, people, it's not always love at first sight, right? It's it it can take a while, yeah. And and that's a really scary time for a lot of uh a lot of people to go through. So how would you and I know this is a big question, right? But it's what would you say to someone who feels feels that they're in in that situation? Because I know for sure there's one or two people listening to this thing that will be like, yeah, you know, Pete kind of just described my situation here.

Separation Anxiety And Gentle Transitions;

SPEAKER_00 28:58

Yeah, I think I think what you're asking is how do you carry so much and this metaphorical backpack that Yes, exactly, yeah. It's a it's a lot. I mean, it sounds cliche, but you know, what they say on airplanes is put your you know, your oxygen mask on before others, and it sounds so simple, but the biggest risk factor to perinatal mood and anxiety disorders is sleep deprivation. So in that same, in that same breath, are you socially connected with your loved ones? Are you getting sleep? Are you hydrating? Are you moving your body? Are you, you know, resting when you can on the weekends? Are you accepting help? Right. Sometimes people, it it's nice to say, yeah, well, you know, so and so offered help. Are you actually accepting it? So and then uh take audit of what are some things that might serve you well to reconstruct? Is it do you need to work on your relationship with your partner? Do you need to um change your workout routine? Do you need to, you know, take a power pause? Do you need to reconnect with a loved one that really brought you joy at one point? So I think it's it's that audit piece that's important, but also don't underestimate the power of self-health. Um and also to come back to your other point, to give some wisdom to managers, I think sometimes, sometimes it is intentional that you're, you know, maybe not given that promotion or opportunity because you you've got the big M on your forehead. But sometimes I do think it comes from a good place, a well-intended place from a manager who says, you know, I was gonna give you this project, but I actually thought maybe I'll give it to so-and-so, and we can revisit it in six months because I know your plate is so full. So the flip side to this is sometimes it's well-intended, and maybe you're happy about not getting the extra project, maybe you're not. And so I think for managers or supervisors, don't assume that just because they're in this season that they don't have the capacity to take on something else, or that they don't want that promotion.

Guilt, Joy, And Mixed Feelings;

Peter 31:34

Yeah, no, that no, that is an excellent point. You always ask first, right? It seems obvious, but but there are lots of, yeah, and it's also you know, you're much nicer than I am about managers, generally speaking. That's how you can tell you're a mental health professional, and I'm just a jackass, who just goes, No, there's because I because I used to be, could because I I used to be fairly senior in the industries I worked on. Um nine out of ten times they don't forget out of kindness. It is just you're either not on their radar, which is one thing, right? Which is almost it's bad enough, but you're you're just not on their radar because you know old man stuff reasons, or they just go with the nah, we're not doing that right now, right? Especially in the UK, there's a lot around because I know in America um maternity leave sucks and maternity pay sucks in the UK. There are it's better, but there are still consequences to that where people are saying, Yeah, I'd give this person the job, but she might not, but she might not come back, or she might not do this, she might not do that, she might change because you know what women are like, you know, that's that type of yeah, yeah, that that type of thinking. Uh so for you to even consider that it might be done from a place of loving care, that is much nicer than than I am, uh, but then there's a reason I left the corporate world. Uh so say we're coming back after that six months, uh at six months or or at at a year, and and you've gone through the whole that whole change of now you are a parent, right? Especially and this especially goes for for for people again with first kids, and and I I know I mentioned that a lot, but I I know there's other problems with when you have two or three or four, but I think this this affects a lot of people that return after one. You return after six months or you return after a year, and and your identity has changed. I mean, you are now referred to quite often as Charles name, yeah. Right? You you're not you you're not you're you're not Becky anymore, you're blah blah's mom. That is kind of how people refer to you very, very quickly, I think uh people find. Um, so how do you then go with you've just accepted that change, and now you have to add the layer of of work to it, which is another huge shift at that stage as well. Do you find any significant changes with regards to returning after six weeks or returning after like a year, two years from an especially from an identity from a mental health perspective? As in is the settling in process different in that way?

SPEAKER_00 34:44

In terms of when you come back, yeah.

Peter 34:48

If you come back later, do you find that that people bump into different uh different difficulties or different areas to work on?

SPEAKER_00 34:58

Yeah, I think that's a really thoughtful question. It I think it really depends. There may be, from my mental health lens, let's say that there's been birth trauma. And so someone's six-month postpartum maybe look very different from someone who had a very physically easy recovery.

SPEAKER_01 35:24

Sure.

Workbooks, Journaling, And Holistic Tools;

SPEAKER_00 35:24

Or perhaps there was more congruence between their experience of what they expected motherhood to be like and what actually happened. So I think it's so just to come back to this idea, it's so individualized in terms of the experience. And so that might be for anyone listening, a good check-in question of how did I experience this? How have I adjusted in terms of my identity? Like what does it mean to me to be a mom? Or now you put on another hat of a working mom, or now, you know, uh friendships morph, your partnership is being given all of these new roles. Um, the identity from going from let's say you're on parental leave to being a full-time mom to now being separated from your baby for 40 hours, 50 hours a week. And so I encourage folks to really take the time to self-examine as opposed to just okay, I'm back at work, but reflect on it. And then the other piece is there is an integrative piece around, okay, yeah, I'm now in the throes of motherhood. And even if it's you're loving every minute, oftentimes some parts of our old selves quietly get lost. And so what you can also self-examine is are there any parts that may have melted away that I want to reclaim in this season? And if so, what are those? Right. And so it can be very splintered where we just want to have, okay, I'm the working person or I'm the mom. And let me tell you, there was a moment where I I tried that kind of splintered approach of like, nope, it at work I'm work and at home I'm at home. Yeah, but there is a moment and we shared a telephone system, you'll appreciate this. And on the on the phone system, it said, you know, fill in the blank child care center. And everybody knew because I was the only parent in in the room. Yeah, oh Becky, it's it's your daughter's daycare calling.

SPEAKER_01 37:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:47

It's these types of examples in qu I encourage folks to integrate because at some point it's gonna come up or someone's gonna find you out. You know, you're you're a a person who wears multiple hats, and that's okay.

Ending Hazing And Building Support

Peter 38:03

Yeah, I think that's that's an excellent point, especially the one about checking in on yourself. I think we as in as people are especially in the west. I hate to say it, but you you know, I know other cultures they will be listening to this and go, Pete, we do this all the time, but it's it's you know, in and especially in in the west, as in in the northern in the northern, the cold, the the the white part of of of the west, we are very big on just plodding along, and then when when it breaks, it breaks, but you know, we we plod along until it breaks, and we never we have a tendency to not ask ourselves, hey, how is it actually going for us? I think there have been a couple of big changes, like you said, you know, you're a parent now, you might have had trauma, the birth, even even small trauma with regards to and I never used to appreciate this like 20 or so years ago, but it's small trauma of the birth just not going the way you thought it was going to go, and and everything being okay at the end, no big dramas, but still a bit of trauma that never gets word through, right? That that we tend to sit with that stuff, yeah. Yeah, um, and you know, we bottle it down because we're good people, we squeeze that down into bit of a belly, and then what it explodes, it explodes. Um but that checking in on yourself that that is a skill I think most people don't necessarily have because it requires a level of honesty that you know, let's be honest, people are pretty good at lying to themselves. Um but being truthful to yourself is is is uncomfortable for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 39:51

Yeah, it really can be.

Peter 39:53

So, how do you then teach because like I said, we could like you said earlier, you can do this stuff yourself, but it's probably better if you work with somebody on that on that side of thing, right? So you would surely recommend that someone gets some therapy at some stage postpartum, or at some stage, even not even postpartum, but just at some stage after loads of transitions.

SPEAKER_00 40:21

Yeah, I mean, it just like in any major life transition or adjustment, yeah, it can be really helpful, even if it's just a preventative plan, maybe you're not gonna experience trauma, maybe you're not going to experience, you know, uh proclampsia or or whatnot. But this is a major change. And so something as simple as okay, talk, let's talk with our partner. How are we gonna share the nights? How are who's gonna who's gonna be finding a pediatrician? And creating some type of postpartum plan can go a long way. You know, maybe you won't need it, but it can be really helpful. And I liked what you said before is you may not have a trauma, but there may be a discrepancy between what you had hoped for or dreamed for in terms of your birthing experience. And so maybe it's grief work. You're doing some grieving around what you experience, which may not be traumatic, but it fell short of that dream that you really hoped for. So even just a few sessions working with someone of how how does this grief look, how does it feel? And then how do we then move out of that to be able to make sure it doesn't haunt us into the next few months?

Peter 41:45

Yeah, because especially when you then add the whole, like we were talking about, potential, well, the issue of just separating, let's be honest, separation anxiety. It's uh and and I love to do this. I talk about my dogs a lot because it drives people nuts and I get emails, and engagement is everything on this type of stuff, right? Separation anxiety is something that we've we treat in dogs much more than we treat it in people, right? We we say to I mean, one of my dogs is attached to my hip, like at all times, um, and therefore we are working on that. Whereas if if yeah, it's all cute and it's all sweet until she has to be left alone, and then it's not cute and sweet anymore. Do you know what I mean? Well, it's a little Maltese and it's yeah, he loves she loves your daddy. Yes, she does, but she also hates it when that and sometimes daddy has to go, right, for for a few hours. Um but for people going to work for, like you said, 20, 30, 40 hours, leaving the baby for the first time, going on the business trip, leaving the child for the first time. No, we don't work on that, it's just shit you have to deal with. Yeah, right. Um, so that is probably something we should work on, right? That is not something we could just ignore and and and just go, yeah, just deal with it.

SPEAKER_00 43:11

Yeah, I I like to tell if you have the luxury of doing a slow transition back, so you can have a couple you know practice days with your childcare provider, and you can kind of process what feelings come up. There's some practical tools like transitional objects, or while you're pumping, can you make a playlist or a photo album that you can look at? And also like acknowledging going from spending all day every day with your baby to going back to work. Of course, you miss them. So there's like a validating piece there that yeah, this kind of sucks and it's okay to miss your baby. And then how do you want maybe the quantity of time, again, that cognitive restructuring? Perhaps you look at it as we're gonna make sure that the quality is superb. In the evenings because we're making up for that time, or the weekends are sacred to us because yes, we're separate from each other during the day, but gosh, our evenings and weekends are so fun. Special.

Peter 44:14

Yeah, and especially, and and then we have, of course, you have the guilt of not missing your children. Right? Because I know several people listening to this are like I went back to work. It's a little wrong rather than all. I was delighted to be amongst adults, finally not talking about and now I feel terrible about that.

SPEAKER_00 44:31

Totally been there. And it's like we have feelings about our feelings.

Peter 44:35

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:36

It's a lot, it's a lot.

Peter 44:39

And I know you've got one or two um workbooks, which is why I really wanted to talk about this. So uh you've got like the the the transition to working motherhood, uh, and and all that type of stuff. Um, do you find that those practical workbooks, because in I think for me, you know, journaling is relatively new, especially in the UK. I think with regards to this type of stuff, the US is like 10-20 years ahead, usually, right? And I'm I'm I'm thinking it's shortening now. It's the same as with therapy, right? Therapy in America, all most of my American friends have a therapist, it's completely normal, and that is just what they do. They're all also that shit crazy, by the way. Everything isn't isn't to this, but they all need therapy, but you know, they all get therapy because they need it. Whereas, whereas your Europeans, therapy, no, that's not what we do, right? That is for crazy peoples. Um, and I'm not saying we're not crazy, I'm just saying but now it's coming in much more over here, in at least in in the UK, it is. Um, so we used to be 10-20 years behind, and now it's it's less now because of the internet, right? And and but but things like journaling and doing workbooks and and all that type of stuff is still relatively new. So, what sort of practical things have you put in uh into your thing that you're like actually, you know what? Because you know, the workbook is and and I always always say this, it's like 15 quid, 15 dollars, which is yeah, not a lot of money postpartum. I mean, if you can swing it, you know, your baby's gonna cost you a quarter of a mil by the time they're 18 years old. You can probably spend$15 on yourself.

SPEAKER_00 46:27

Absolutely, and it's also available and audible. So if you're into it while you're taking a walk, that's it's accessible in that way too. But my goal was not to add a bunch of to-dos. Like I understand moms, working moms, birthing individuals, the plates are already full. So this is not this is not to say, well, let's throw journaling at this, let's let's give you more to-do, it's to give you practical tools that will, yes, it may take a little bit of time at the onset, but the payoff will have dividends that'll essentially save you time, improve your wellness. And I use a holistic approach, which is the dimensions of wellness. So we're not just looking at emotional, psychological health, we're looking at resources and exercises to support all dimensions. So we look at financial, spiritual, environmental, social, emotional. You get what I'm saying. That we are I I see us as holistic beings, and it's also gentle. So you can expect that this is gonna be a soft, gentle approach. It's not gonna be, yeah, this sucks, and we're gonna use hazing to just like be initially together, although that could be therapeutic in and of itself, but it's it's really a more compassionate approach to supporting moms going back to work.

Peter 48:03

Yeah, because uh that that's an interesting thing that that you mentioned the hazing. Um, because do we still think that works? I think genuinely just other than you know, it's it's nice to swear at stuff. I'm not saying it's not therapeutic for the person going through something that that they have to be gentle, but for people on the outside, oh come on, just I always see hazing as a like you said earlier, oh, just if you think it's terrible now, just wait until they're too, right?

SPEAKER_00 48:33

Exactly, yeah.

Peter 48:34

That that type of thing.

SPEAKER_00 48:36

I think it's it's also a symptom of the resentment and being so under-resourced and under-supported that end up being so cynical and resentful that that's the baton that we then pass on. And yeah, what we talked about in the very beginning, what do we do? Of like, let's let's change some of these systems, let's support moms a little bit better so the next generation doesn't have to go through what we did.

Peter 49:04

Yeah, no, I I I I could not I could not agree more. Uh cool. I think we've covered quite a lot of ground. And I know that after about the 15-minute mark, the listener numbers start to drop because that's when everybody is fed up listening to my dulcet tones. Um, so was there anything else you wanted to cover?

SPEAKER_00 49:23

No, I just appreciate the work that you're doing, and you know, that's I love finding other folks in the same space to support birthing individuals, and you know, we're in this together.

Peter 49:35

Absolutely. Not happy note. I will press stop record here.