Down the Rabbit Hole with Dr. Ozum Arzik Erzurumlu

A childhood spent among Greek, Turkish, and Jewish neighbors can turn language into a way of being. That spirit runs through a candid, wide‑ranging conversation with conference interpreter, researcher, and choir singer Dr. Ozum Arzik Erzurumlu, whose path stretches from lyric notebooks and full‑immersion schooling to live broadcasts of U.S. presidents. We open the booth door on the realities of crisis coverage, the relay chains that kept news flowing during the Arab Spring, and the home‑built audio hacks that made phone interpreting viable when seconds mattered.

We dig into the engine room of performance: preparation that goes beyond collecting terms to truly owning them, learning a speaker’s discourse so style carries meaning, and the post‑assignment review that separates solid from exceptional. Dr. Arzik Erzurumlu shares evidence‑based ways to protect the person behind the mic—growth mindset, positive psychology, pre‑briefs, and rituals that help interpreters shed vicarious trauma after war speeches and emotionally charged testimonies. The message is practical and humane: accuracy and well‑being can coexist, if we plan for both.

Then we follow Alice down the rabbit hole into remote platforms and AI. Drawing on interviews with 26 freelancers, Dr. Arzik Erzurumlu maps what changed when booths became browsers: the gains in reach for those who were proactive, the loss of room intelligence and human touch, and the surprising habits interpreters wanted to keep. We tackle “tech without panic,” showing how tools like ChatGPT and Notebook LM can accelerate prep while the irreplaceably human skills—reading the room, catching irony, matching tone—remain the profession’s edge. We also challenge the myth of invisibility: stay neutral on the mic, but step forward outside it to explain your value, ethics, and craft.

If you care about where interpreting is headed—reputation over rush, visibility without bias, and smart use of technology—this conversation offers both a compass and a toolkit. Listen, share with a colleague, and leave a review so more practitioners can find it. Subscribe for more deep dives into the craft and evolution of interpreting.

Ozum Arzik-Erzurumlu, PhD, is a full-time faculty member in the Program in Translation and Interpreting Studies at the University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign. Her research spans multiple dimensions of interpreting, including conference interpreting, the sociology of interpreting, interpreting technology, interpreter training, and the history of interpreting. Her work has been published in several leading journals, including Translation and Interpreting Studies and Interpreting. A professional conference interpreter, she works with Turkish (A), English (B), and Spanish (C) and has interpreted for U.S. presidents on behalf of various Turkish broadcasters since 2006. She is an active member of the Turkish Conference Interpreters’ Association, a researcher with the GenTech international research network, and a board member of Encounters in Translation. NEW BOOK: Reimagining Conference Interpreting in the Age of AI (Routledge, 2026) will be out on May 27, 2026!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:40

A childhood in Yesmir, where Greek, Turkish, and Jewish neighbors shared streets and stories, can turn a person into a lifelong bridge. That's where our journey starts with Ozumar Zek, translator, conference interpreter, researcher, and choir singer, whose path runs from lyric notebooks and full immersion schooling to live broadcasts interpreting U.S. presidents. Along the way, we dig into the craft behind the mic, the quiet hours with pen and paper glossaries, the difference between knowing terms and owning them, and the discipline of learning a speaker's discourse so style arrives with substance. We open the booth door on live television where seconds matter and the tech trial and error of the mortgage crisis and Arab Spring shape reliable broadcast workflows. Then we go deeper. How do you carry a war into someone else's language without carrying it in your body? Azum shares evidence-based strategies for emotional awareness and self-regulation, from pre-briefs and growth mindset to post-assignment rituals that pull you back from vicarious trauma. It's practical, humane guidance that respects both accuracy and the interpreter's well-being. The conversation then follows Alice down a different rabbit hole: remote platforms and AI. Through interviews with 26 freelancers, Ozum maps what changed, what we gained, and what we lost when booths became browsers. We talk visibility, dispelling the myth that great interpreters must be unseen, while staying firmly grounded in neutrality and ethics. But wait, there's more. We also tackle Tech Without Panic, how tools like ChatGPT and Notebook LM can speed prep while the irreplaceable human edge, reading the room, matching tone, sensing pause and irony, keep the profession vital. If you care about where this profession is headed, about owning your value, and about protecting the human side of interpreting, then this episode is for you. Come with me down the rabbit hole with Ozum, Arzik, Erzurumlu. And hey, if you enjoy this episode the way I think you will, share your thoughts with me on social media. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to Brand the Interpreter for more conversations on the craft and evolution of interpreting. Let's get started. Thank you very much, Mileya, for inviting me. It's my pleasure to be here. I am absolutely looking forward to our conversation today. I think it's I think it's going to be very cerebral. It's going to make many interpreters think a lot about the information you're going to share with us. And so I'm ready to get started. Thank you. Very well. I'm going to begin with the very first question, which is getting to know Zoom just a little bit before we get to know the interpreter, the professional interpreter Ozom. So share with us where you grew up and what a fond childhood memory that you recall.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

I grew up in Izmir, meaning Smyrna. It's by the Aegean coast in Turkey. It's a coastal town, so to speak. And my grandmother, for instance, she spoke Greek, although she could not read in Turkish, which is very interesting in my case. Probably that's why I got into languages because it was already in the family. We lived surrounded by Greeks, Jews, you name it. It was a cosmopolitan society back at that time. And I truly loved it. I loved being a part of such a cosmopolitan uh town, city. And as for my childhood, um I loved listening to those languages on the streets. And uh probably it sparked my interest in languages.

SPEAKER_00 5:19

Yeah, what do you recall maybe shaped uh in terms of being surrounded by the different languages and the different people, aside from just being interested in hey, I might be interested in learning all these different languages. Anything else that sort of formed in your thinking as a young child?

SPEAKER_01 5:38

Um the fun of reading in those languages was what I was interested in, the fun of singing in those languages. So I was very much interested in lyrics. Uh a friend of mine and I had a notebook in which we wrote down the lyrics in English and then we would translate them into Turkish. So it began uh at an early stage. I mean, translation um just for fun began at an early stage for me. And my daughter is still doing the same. She has a lyric book and she translates those lyrics in uh into Turkish as well. So uh I guess I passed it to her. And um I luckily now I'm singing in both languages. Uh so yeah, in addition to interpreting, I'm a member of a choir. I was a member of a choir in Turkey, and here I am a member of an uh of an international choir. So we're singing in Spanish, um, English, German. So wow.

SPEAKER_00 6:37

Yeah. Oh, I love that. Now you mentioned English. How did that come to be? Was that school related?

SPEAKER_01 6:44

It is school related, definitely. So I was 11 years old uh when I began learning English, because in Turkey you have to take several exams, in the sense that I had to take an exam after uh the primary school, the middle school, the high school, you name it. So there are several exams. And based on the scores you get, uh you become eligible to go into certain schools. So I uh studied at an Anatolian high school. We called it Anatolian High School back then, and it was interestingly funded by the US. I learned it at a later stage during a research of mine. So it was funded by US, and then I began learning English there. Uh, we had a full immersion year, meaning that we would study only English. And then the following year, we would study biology, maths, uh, chemistry, physics, you name it, everything in English. So that's how I came to learn English by full immersion into the language. And it's what I love. That's how I learn Spanish as well. Full immersion really makes a huge difference.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

Yeah, you know, I'm always fascinated by the individuals that come here that are uh raised in a different country and their school system, you know, it's it's nine times out of ten, if not all interviews that I've had, will share that their school system requires the foreign language at a young age as compared to the US, right? Just the the differences in the educational system where the US, you don't have to, you don't have to, it's not even a requirement until later on. And um, and it's not necessarily full immersion either. But if you do come to the US schools, uh in some in some places, in some states, full immersion is required for the children. So yeah, quite interesting.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

It is interesting. You're right, Mireia. I'm really sorry and sad to see that for my daughter. Yeah, it's not a requirement. So it comes at a very late stage, and I think it falls upon the parents then uh to make them to make their kids fully immerse in a language. So there's a lot parents have to do in the United States in this sense.

SPEAKER_00 9:01

Yeah, no, I I completely agree. I that's something that I've definitely learned throughout my interviews on the show um in these number of years, is that yeah, we're so far behind when it comes to that. You mentioned uh, you know, Greek, Greek culture. Was there that was on your grandma's side? Is that correct?

SPEAKER_01 9:21

On my grandma's side, yeah. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

Was there any were there any stories that she ever shared? Because now, you know, you're growing up in in Turkey. Was there any stories that your grandma shared about Greek uh culture or mythology that the US and speaking of the US, the US has it either wrong or something that we don't necessarily hear in the Western states know about?

SPEAKER_01 9:44

Um so there's an assumption regarding Turkish and Greek relations. Most of the people in the United States or in other parts of the world believe that we are enemies. However, uh in some sense, we are friends. We are really close friends in that we share the same food. Think of Turkish um coffee, Greek coffee, Turkish baklava, Greek baklava. Uh, even the uh greeneries, we eat the same food, we cook them in a very similar manner. So we share a lot of similarities. And back then, uh my grandmother lived in Izmir, in a small town close to Izmir, Smyrna, uh before um the Turkish state was founded. And back then, she had many Greek friends, and she would always tell us stories about their friendship, about the visits they made to each other's houses, how happy they were. And uh I think it stayed with me in the sense that it taught me how we can become friends with uh people of other nations and leave aside our differences and celebrate it.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

I love that. That's so great. Well, thank you for that. I yeah, I think that was very likely one of my potential misconceptions is the fact that it's completely separate. Um, but it come to find out the older we get, it's like I I always, or rather, I've mentioned it a few times here that there is this theme song in uh Disneyland. Um, and if you've ever been, there's this ride in which, you know, it it basically takes you through the world, right? And it's the theme song in there is it's a small world after all. And the older I get, the more I believe that is definitely the case. We are more united and similar than we are different if we care to look deep enough, right, for those similarities. So thanks for sharing that. Now we know, right, audience? Now we know.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

Thank you. And I also believe that we also, I mean, Turks also have similarities with the Mexicans as well. So I visited Mexico to fully immerse in uh Spanish culture, and I loved seeing the similarities.

Ethics And The First Assignments

SPEAKER_00 11:58

Yeah, yeah. I've seen it too with like um a lot of the Arabic, for example, uh, you know, there's there's many similarities, and I've learned that as I continue uh training new interpreters whenever we do have Arabic interpreters, Arabic speaking interpreters, and they'll share some of cultural beliefs or different traditions or even words sometimes. And I'm like, again, just proves the point. We actually are more similar than we are different. So, Azum, growing up, you had the idea that you wanted to become a doctor, and then at some point that shifted, and you thought about becoming an interpreter. Could you walk us through what was going on behind the scenes as you are shifting between becoming a doctor to becoming an interpreter?

SPEAKER_01 12:52

Well, I wanted to become a doctor because I was a very good student. Let me be frank. I was a hardworking one. And uh in countries such as Turkey, India, you name it, whenever you have high scores, uh becoming a doctor is one of the best options. Um, however, the more I studied languages, the more uh I read in English. I was a I was a very avid reader. I read uh Dickens' novels, you name it, Jane Austen novels, Thomas Hardy novels, and I loved them. And the more I read, the more I realized, oh, I want to use my languages. I don't want to get away from English at any stage. So it's something that I want to live in. It's something that I want to pursue. I want to continue learning English, I want to continue speaking in English. So that's why I shifted my um decision. And I finally decided to become a translator and interpreter. Because the thing is, although uh becoming a doctor was one of the best options, uh, to become an interpreter, particularly a conference interpreter, you should get really high scores in Turkey. And you should be able to study at a reputable university such as the one that I graduated from, which is Bozechi University, again founded by the United States. So that's an interesting story. Uh I found out that my husband and I are uh products of the Americas of America's soft power, as I uh made a research for one of my articles. Um it's an interesting story. Uh I studied at an American college, I studied interpreting there, and I loved my job. I truly love uh helping people, first and foremost, and then um becoming a part of their solution. So whenever there's a need, I love helping them to be able to communicate in a better way uh with each other, to be able to communicate what is happening in some other countries to the layman, uh, in the sense that I worked as a staff interpreter for CNN Turk, which is the Turkish branch of CNN uh for a long time. And then uh I set up my own company. I became a freelancer and I would work with agencies, I would have my direct clients, and I would combine them. And I loved doing that. I loved uh being able to interpret American presidents for the Turkish audience uh because I've done it since um 2006, and I've interpreted all the presidents since then. You name it uh Bush, uh Biden, Obama, Trump, and I love seeing the difference in their discourses. And I love uh seeing the change in their register as well. So uh it's a passion of mine. I am very much into uh my profession.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

What was it like the very first time? Do you recall that you finally did something on a professional level, not necessarily still in school to complete your studies, but when you were out there on your own and said, okay, this is it, right? What was that like for you to recall? Do you recall the first uh assignment?

SPEAKER_01 16:20

Yeah, I do. I definitely recall it. So it was my last year in college, and I um accompanied a businessman in Italy. Uh, it was a jewelry company. I accompanied them and I remembered them. I well, I was not a professional back then, I was just a student, but I was learning about it and I was courageous enough uh to uh accompany them and uh work consecutively for them. And I remember what they kept telling me was like, it's business. So whenever we are talking about the details of the business, do not interpret that for the other party. And I told them, look, I'm a professional interpreter and I have to abide by all the calls of ethics, though I am still a student because it's gonna be my profession. So if you don't want me to interpret whatever you're talking about, then uh don't talk about it when I'm there. Because as an interpreter, I have to interpret whatever I hear to the other party. Uh so I learned about the codes of ethics in time. Isn't it something that we all learn? Um not at school, but during the business.

SPEAKER_00 17:35

Yeah, how to apply them. I think that that's the thing, right? It's like the the the theory, and we hear that time and time again from from students in TNI is you know, you hear about the theory, but it's not it's not until you are actually in it that you realize how to apply them. And it's not so it's not so clean, you know, and it's also not as comfortable because that I think that's that's the other part. You just mentioned the word courage, right? It does take courage for you to be able to abide by it and have to share that out loud with the other party. It's like, oh man, how what is this gonna what is this going to go like? It's pretty scary, actually. So I love that.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

Yeah, and in time you become a professional, you learn all the uh details about how to share it with your clients and you know them, you get to know them, and it's fun as well because in the end it's it's a communication, it's the way that people um communicate with each other uh that makes the difference. It's how to say it rather than what you say it.

SPEAKER_00 18:41

Yes. Walk us through your experience uh that that basically moved you into interpreting for presidents, because there is one thing uh to do interpreting in a specific sector, uh, for example, uh medical interpreting. Um, there's a little bit more, I don't want to say control, but sort of a flow of communication. Uh whereas to I would imagine in live television, especially with uh uh an individual that speaks a certain way or has maybe even a script that they're going by and infusing emotion or things of that nature, that that takes a very specific type of interpreter. So share with us, walk, walk this audience through how that ultimately came to be for you. Thank you very much.

Live TV, Relay, And Crisis Workflows

Preparation, Glossaries, And Discourse

Emotions, Trauma, And Self‑Regulation

SPEAKER_01 19:42

So uh let me go into the technical details first. It was during the mortgage crisis that I had to uh interpret over the phone for the first time before we even talked over the phone interpreting, right? And uh I remember I was the only interpreter uh working for CNN uh Turk uh back then uh for that week. And uh suddenly uh Bush decided to make a statement. And uh I was at home and uh the company called me and told me, oh Zum, I know it may be hard, but you're the only one that we can rely on. And Bush will make a statement in five minutes and please interpret it over the phone. So I had to do it over the phone, and you may imagine uh it's not easy to uh hear the incoming sound and hear the output at the same time, as long as you don't have the headsets. So it was not that easy for me, but then I um made an arrangement at home. So what I would do is I would turn on CNN International on my TV, I would have a headset connected to my TV, and I would talk uh to my phone. So I would hear the incoming sound through my headset, uh, which would ease my job, and people would be hearing me over the phone, which was a much better setting. So this was the technical side of it, and I'm glad that I was able to come up with a solution because think of it that way, Miraya. Um, I was a staff interpreter during the Arab Springs, and think of the amount of interpretation I had to do. So um I had to interpret every day, you know, uh the French president, the American president, whoever is talking, because in Turkey we have a relay system in the sense that if we don't have a French Turkish interpreter, uh, we get the sound through CNN International or BBC or L Jazeera, whatever is available at that time. So it's relay interpreting. And I had to do relay interpreting as well, so I had a huge amount of interpretation going on, assignments going on. And uh secondly, I would like to go into preparation because for me, as an instructor, as a professor, preparation is the key to everything. Well, last year I interpreted uh Trump's inauguration for Turkish audience. Um I guess it was last year, uh around this time. And although I have interpreted Trump on several occasions, you know, think of his first term, uh the presidential debates, this and that, I had to revise everything in the sense that. I had to read the articles in a very detailed manner. I had to think about, oh, what? I had to think of what he can talk about during the inauguration ceremony. I had to think about uh the uh his agenda. I had to read about his agenda, I had to know where he's going to be um and who he's going to meet with. So I had to know everything uh for this special occasion. So preparation is the key. Having a glossary is the key, and updating your glossary. Updating is really important. Once the assignment is over, it's not over. This is what I tell my students because it begins right after the assignment. What differentiates a good interpreter from a, I don't want to say bad interpreter, but let's say a mediocre interpreter comes after the assignment. Are you gonna go over your glossary again? Are you gonna go over what you did well, what could be improved? Are you going to think about that? Are you going to talk to your colleagues? Uh what are you gonna do? Because in my case, uh I have worked for the same client multiple times. So if I know that I'm going to work for the same client again and again, why don't I revise my glossary? Why don't I work on this assignment in my head at least and go over what I've done? I think it makes a huge difference in broadcast interpreting, in conference interpreting, in medical interpreting, judicial interpreting, whatever it is, preparation. And uh going over the terminology after the assignment is the key. And uh thirdly, you talked about emotions. Thank you for mentioning that because it's a topic that is uh dear to my heart. So um when I was interpreting Sarah Palin for the Turkish audience, I realized that as interpreters, we have emotions. And uh we should never ever reflect in our tone of voice. Yet again, we have to be aware of our emotions. And then uh it turned into a research project. Well, um, I'm a practice searcher in Jill's sense, in Danielle Jill's sense, uh, because uh I'm a practicing conference interpreter, I love my job and I hold a PhD, I do research, and uh my research is practice in form, meaning that um let's say I'm interpreting for the Oscar Award ceremony, then if I have a research question that is worth exploring, I uh design a study and I try to answer those questions. Um, for instance, in interpreting the Oscar Award ceremony, I realized that Twitter is used as a quality criteria by the uh clients. And I turned it into a research project, and our uh study was published um in a very reputable uh journal, uh interpreting. And uh then when I was interpreting for Ukrainian-Russian war, I realized that interpreting for such a grave topic impacts us as interpreters. And we designed a study. Uh, I collaborated with a colleague of mine uh who is a professor in psychology. We designed a study and we explored the relationship between emotions and interpreting. And luckily, uh I designed a course for UMS Amherst uh online translation interpreting program uh entitled Emotions in Translation and Interpreting, and it captured really good attention. Uh I taught this course two years ago, uh, and we're planning to continue uh opening this course again. And I guess it's the first time that a specific course uh is designed uh to explore the relationship between emotions and translation interpreting because it's a two-way street. Think of it that way. If you are interpreting the Russian-Ukrainian war, it's clear that uh you may be affected by that. I remember the first day that I interpreted the war. Let me share my story. So I was in the broadcasting company all day long. I interpreted uh Putin's discourse, Biden's discourse, um Zelensky's discourse for the Turkish audience, and then I came home. And here is my husband, who's a finance professor, at home, and he told me, you know what? I was at home all day long, and I'm a bit bored. And I told him, you know what? I interpreted all day long, and there are people who are in shelters now. They they are no longer residing in their beloved homes. So we are lucky, we are in a safe place, we are at home, and although you may have spent the entire day at home, we are not living in a shelter. So it is something that we have to be thankful about.

SPEAKER_00 27:42

Yeah. Now you it it led you to creating a whole course about it. So obviously, research showed a lot of information that you were eager to share with other learners. What with regards to the emotions uh topic with interpreting is something that you know you you want to continue sharing with other interpreters? For example, is it something that we have to learn to regulate prior to the assignment, during the assignment, after the assignment, which by the way, in uh community interpreting, we know that as the three stages of interpreting, yes. So, or all of the above. What about it if you could share with this audience? And then, of course, if they want more, they're gonna have to take the course. But what could you share with this audience? Because I think we've seen uh Ozum time and time again, different articles, particularly where we are right now, um, with all the different things happening around the world, many interpreters do fall into their emotions while interpreting. One article that I recently read was of an interpreter that had to stop interpreting for a child that was trying to share their story because she was so enveloped in the emotion component that someone else had to step in, a non-trained interpreter, to be able to finish so that so that the child could finish sharing their story. So, what do you share with your students with regards to that?

SPEAKER_01 29:25

Thank you very much for asking this question. So, I would say all of the above, in the sense that first and foremost, we have to be aware of ourselves. First comes awareness. Um, if a topic triggers you, be aware of that. Well, I was in charge of recruiting the interpreters uh when the Russian-Ukrainian war broke out in Turkey for three broadcasting companies. And I have talked to very good interpreters who told me, look ozun, I would love to do that, and I can do that. However, I know myself, and I know that I may cry on TV, and I don't want to do that. So please be aware of yourself. This is very important. You may be a very good interpreter, but awareness is the key. And how are you going to do that? First, get to know yourself. Ask yourself which topics may trigger you. How are you going to react to that uh before uh the interpretation? And during the interpretation, of course, self-regulation is the key. Uh, we've seen several interpreters during the war who broke into tears. And it's normal. Uh, we are all human, so embrace that part of you. You are a conference interpreter, but first and foremost, you are a human. You may need help as well. And during the course, I teach some basics to the students because I'm also an ICF certified coach. I'm certified by International Coaching Federation, and uh I love coaching too, so uh I incorporate it into my classes each time I teach a course. And uh I introduce growth mindset, uh grit, and positive psychology to my students, which are some psychological uh terms, but which may help us as interpreters. Because by using growth mindset, um you can learn new stuff, and it helps you in uh even my daughter knows what growth mindset is. Um it's very popular in the United States and it's used a lot even in elementary schools. And um, by using positive psychology, you can regulate your emotions and you can um decide what you're going to do with them. Let me give you an example from the research. When I talked to the interpreters who interpreted the war, one of them told me she began reading Alice in Wonderland right after the war broke out. I think it's a very good method. If you know what is good for you, go and do that. If you know yourself, if you know that, let's say um taking good, taking long walks is good for you, then do it. Working out is one of the ways, talking to people about your emotions is another way, socializing, uh, talking to friends and family. These are all um of the methods, these are all the methods that my informants uh have uh mentioned in our research.

SPEAKER_00 32:41

But it's very deliberate, is what you're sharing with us, yes. So the the intention to release, if you will, has to, it has to be intentional. You have to add that as part of your practice. Just like you just said, right? What makes a great interpreter is that post-analysis or self-analysis. Once that assignment is over, the same thing for maybe high-stakes assignments is ensuring that we know and we recognize this was high stakes and I'm feeling a certain way. It's time to go and let this go.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

Just like actors. I mean, uh, think of the actors. Uh, you become Hamlet one day, but you can't continue your life uh acting as a as a Hamlet, right? So let it go. It was an assignment and find a way to let it go. So I think there's a lot that we can learn from actors in this sense.

SPEAKER_00 33:34

I've had someone actually, if not a couple of guests, talk about that, how they they bring in some of that training uh and acting uh in order to be able to let go, right? Yes, it's like the training as to how you even get into the role uh of the speaker, but then also how you disassociate or detach uh from the role as well is super important so that you don't stay stuck there. You mentioned Alice in Wonderland, which for those that have been following this podcast for a while, perhaps remember that Alice in Wonderland is one of my childhood favorite stories. I love everything about it. And as a matter of fact, Alice in Wonderland became the story that helped me get the courage, there's there's that word again, to start this podcast. Because in the story, at least from my lens, Alice in Wonderland is going through a very difficult journey in her mind and is in she encounters several different individuals that in their own quirky ways help her along the way, right? But if it weren't for these individuals that showed up in her journey, she perhaps wouldn't have been able to navigate her way back home. Uh, and you know, it it just added color to her experience. It helped me to say, you know, along the way, as interpreters, we meet individuals in which we learn from and sort of shape our journeys as well, right? And hence the story of Brent the Interpreter began as the podcast. What about Brent? Yeah, I I really anyway. So the point is, um, when you mentioned Alice in Wonderland, I was like, that's like my favorite childhood story. Alice in Wonderland came back into your journey in in a very unique way. Could you share with us a little bit about that experience with something that you called the rabbit hole?

Alice, Remote Work, And The Rabbit Hole

SPEAKER_01 35:35

Yeah, thank you very much for asking this question. It's very dear to my heart. Yeah. So um I came to the United States four years ago uh as a visiting researcher at UMass Amherst, and Moira Ingileri uh was kind enough uh to accept to work with me. And um I did my research and it turned into a book. Um, my initial suggestion was to make some articles out of it, but Moira um encouraged me to turn it into a book and it's going to be published soon. And the title is Reimagining Conference Interpreting in the Age of AI. And in this book, uh, Alice connects all the chapters because think of it that way. Um my goal in this book is to present a snapshot of the ways in which conference interpreters adapted to or resisted to remote interpreting and AI. And we are similar to Alice in this sense. Uh, like Alice, we compared uh remote interpreting with what we had before, uh traditional conference interpreting settings. And Alice, think of Alice. Alice compared Wonderland with her previous world. And like Alice, we tackled obstacles, but we never gave up. At least most of us never gave up. And importantly, we learned to look at the world uh differently because remote interpreting as an experience shaped us. First, we shaped remote interpreting experience, and then it shaped us as interpreters. And we did not yield, we held on to uh our profession. And just like Alice, although we went down into the rabbit hole in 2020, in the end we encountered ourselves. We came out as um professionals who discovered their likes and their dislikes. Uh, let me give you some examples and let me walk you through at least some of the uh chapters of the book. In chapter two, I argued that uh the COVID era was like a zone of uncertainty for the interpreters. And I borrowed uh this term from Bourdieu and Moira Ingileri because um we reenacted our previous conference interpreting related experiences, including creating a booth-like setting, trying to replicate the uh friendship we had with our bootmates, and we even tried to get our coffee with us during remote interpreting assignments, and we dressed up as if going to uh an interpreting venue. Well, it's not me, uh it's not only my story in this book because I conducted interviews with 26 freelance conference interpreters, and it is what they have told me. They relied on their coffee, outfit, friendship, and bootlight settings uh to survive in a remote interpreting world. And then we changed because we worked remotely for a period of two years. And when the physical assignments came over, uh the question I wanted to answer was are we still the same interpreters? Because think of it that way. You are used to working um in front of a laptop most of the time, or iPad, even uh phones. So we had several devices and we are working in uh our office. We are no longer working in a booth for a period of two years. And then once the in-person assignments uh came up, um of course things had shifted for us in the sense that uh some of the interpreters, although they missed their beloved booths, they no longer wanted to be stuck in their boots. They tended to find them small. Think of the booths, they are small indeed, right? Whereas our offices are big, we have more space in our office, I have my notebook and everything, and uh I have several devices, but I can't do it in a small booth. So for some interpreters, booths were small, and they no longer wanted to commute to work because uh working in our home offices was more convenient for them. And uh they got used to um short meetings because during the COVID era we really had short meetings. Whereas as of 2022, the meetings are longer now. We have to be uh in the booth uh all day long from eight to five, we have to commute there. So things shifted for the interpreters. Uh the question I try to uh address is are we still the same interpreters? What has shifted for freelance conference interpreters with remote interpreting, with being uh in with with with working in remote settings for a period of two years? This is the question I'm trying to answer. And um in the last chapter, I argued that with AI, with machine interpreting, you know, all the technology, now conference interpreting scene has turned into a zone of insecurity. Most of the interpreters are asking themselves whether they will be able to survive in such a digitally um mediated landscape. And my answer to this question is yes, we're going to survive. However, let me get back to the emotions again. As long as we hold on to our role as uh social um beings, as uh emotional beings, as long as we focus on the way that we contribute to a certain assignment, meeting, conference as human beings, then we're going to survive. So it's very important that we become aware of uh our contribution as human interpreters. Because from my perspective, interpreting is not like mathematics. We can't say two plus two is equal to four in interpreting. No, uh, we are human beings. Think of the gestures, body language. Now I'm talking to you, I see you on my screen, and it makes a difference. So think of communication that way. Will AI be able to see you? No. Will AI be able to interpret Noam Chomsky better than me if I had the opportunity to make an interview with Noam Chomsky, see him, you know, um and uh talk to him? No, it's going to be the human interpreters who will deliver a better job rather than machine interpreting or AI, however you want to call it. Uh, overall, in this book, I invite readers to imagine or reimagine uh what it means for a profession uh historically rooted in physical prisons uh to thrive in a digitally mediated landscape through the story of Alice in Wonderland.

Gains, Losses, And Interpreter Visibility

SPEAKER_00 42:53

I'm so excited for this book, by the way, because yeah, I definitely believe that this is this is uh the type of content and material that many of us that have the same question with regards to are we going to um, is it just going to change in terms of how we show up now as interpreters? Um must it, or are we going to be able to sort of continue with status quo, what we imagine is the normal, or is this the new normal, right? And and what is the new normal, right? Is it going to continue to evolve? Always more questions, obviously, than there are answers to it. And so having some guidance as to what this looks like is always great, as far as I'm concerned. But I I also really appreciate the fact that it takes us back to uh what you mentioned earlier about really getting to know ourselves, right? We we do have to have some sort of self-regulation, um, uh self-awareness in order to, yes, in order to understand, well, what does human interpreting look like? Or, you know, how is that experienced and differentiated from machine? You know, pretty deep questions, but I think ultimately, as you mentioned earlier, it does come down to the emotion component. Um, because only as humans are we able to recognize the infusion of an emotion in a statement, right? In a pause, potentially, that machine would not. And not only can we recognize it, but we can mimic it, I guess, which is what we would want to do, um, replicate it as an interpreter, in order to be able to infuse that same emotion to the listener. So I I guess uh my question then for you is how as an interpreter do we recognize that we are coming into this era of change, pretty similar perhaps to other moments in time for interpreting history, that we recognize things changed. And I'm thinking very specifically because it's pretty popularly shared about the Nuremberg trials, because of the high intensity, high emotion, and introduction of something new at the same time that all of this was happening. How do we as interpreters learn to shift our mindset to recognize that this is yet another moment in interpreting history in which we are evolving as we speak?

SPEAKER_01 45:45

Thank you very much for asking this question. Yeah, it's very important uh to recognize that. What I've seen is that in chapter three, I looked into the gains and losses of the profession. And let me give you some examples. Of course, we have lost uh human touch during remote interpreting era. I call it remote interpreting era. I'm talking about um the years between 2020 and 2022, in which we mostly worked remotely. Uh so human touch was lost. However, there were some gains, particularly uh for the early testers of remote interpreting platforms and LSP owners. Meaning that if you create new connections, if you make use of um your previous um network, or if you go out and talk to people about the services you offer online, then you have a certain chance of um increasing the volume of your business. This is what happened to some people during COVID era, meaning that it's very important to be proactive. It's very important to go out and speak. And it takes me to the myth. I'm gonna I wanna call it the myth, the myth of invisibility that we have taught our students. Well, I'm going to be very frank. Um the more I read about the literature, the more I make research, the more I teach interpreting, the less I believe in invisibility. Because in the end, interpreting is a profession. Conference interpreting is a profession. What you're doing is a profession. Uh, coaching is a profession, acting is a profession. Okay, we love uh interpreting, but in the end, it's a profession, right? And we have to be out there. We have to be able to talk about our profession. We should be able to talk about our services and the differences that we make. I no longer believe in invisibility. It does not mean going against the codes of ethics. Of course, we have to be impartial, neutral, we have to abide by accuracy. And I would like to extend my thanks to AIC for being a pioneer in um setting the codes of ethics, in uh regulating the remote work uh during COVID era. They've done a great job. And I'm a member of Turkish Conference Interpreting Association. We followed uh suit. Um we learned a lot from their experience, and um I think I do a very good job. What I'm talking about is teaching our students to become visible. This term uh I'm going to teach conference interpreting again at U of I, University of Illinois, Urbana Champaign. And I am planning to incorporate uh a part about how they can turn interpreting into a business. This is what I've seen in Setsunan Doran's book. There is a great book out there that was published just recently by Elizabeth Teselius. Again, she dwells upon uh interpreting as a business. Um and I think it's very important to talk about this part of interpreting and voice our own opinions about our profession. I'm not talking about voicing our opinion uh during the interpretation. No, if I'm interpreting Trump, I should be able to um render him accurately. And I should hide my feelings. If I'm interpreting for Obama again, I'm not there as ozum. I'm interpreting Obama as an interpreter who abides by AIC's uh codes of ethics. Okay, I'm not talking about that. But once the interpreting part is over, then talk about your profession. Talk about your contribution, talk about the human, uh, the humane side of the profession. This is uh what we have to do as interpreters. We have to be out there.

SPEAKER_00 49:59

I'm glad you cleared that up because I I recently came across a post um from someone that pretty highly followed on social media that uh posted something with regards to interpreters are not conduits. Interpreters uh based on their belief, um, and it's their belief opinion, I would say interpreters are actually um active participants in that assignment. And I I sort of, you know, my head sort of tilted and thought, wow, this is it's a great conversation. And I respectfully uh disagree with that notion just because I I do believe in a sense of um the interpreter not being active in someone's conversation or discussion or presentation or you know, uh fill in the blank. So there is a level of, and perhaps it's the the wrong use of word, right? But but sort of not being there uh for lack of of a better explanation, which perhaps is where this word invisible came from. And then it was just, well, heck, I'm gonna say it misinterpreted in the work that we do, right? So it's so funny you mentioned this visibility element of the interpreter in order for us to come out from behind the scenes, if you will, and say, interpreting is a profession. Um, and we are the individuals behind this profession. Guess what? It's human, right? We are humans, and there's all of these components and elements involved in order for us to be able to do the job correctly. So I I really appreciate that you clarified that because I thought, well, this is going to be a very interesting topic of conversation with our listeners. That I think it seems like there's people that are on both sides based on the response of that post, which had some individuals agreeing with that um notion, which is that the interpreter is not a conduit, the interpreter is an active participant in that person's dialogue or in that person's um you know communication that they're in, versus the other side that was respectfully not agreeing with it. I count myself in that. I do think that it's there is an element there that we have to do tread carefully. Nevertheless, even the concept of branding the interpreter, that was the the notion for me. Like, hey, we're not out there enough sharing our profession, being proud of what we do so that people know what it takes to actually do the work. And I think we need to come out and the highlight needs to be on us. I am somebody that actually does believe and advocate for the translator to be mentioned in the translation of literary work because it highlights that individual. So when I hear, for example, someone say um translated by, right? Like if I'm listening to an audiobook and they share the name of the translator, not only does it make me proud, right, of the profession, like, oh, this is by a translator, but I listen differently as well, because it's like the fact that I'm able to make a connection with this book and its message, thanks to the work of a translator that was also involved, it just makes me more proud. So I agree respectfully with what you're sharing about the invisibility component. Also, anything else you want to share about this topic before we move on to something that I it's pressing that I do want to ask you about?

SPEAKER_01 53:46

Um, just one more thing. Uh, now that you talked about interpreters being the conduits of information, I believe uh we also display some sort of agency. Um it's not about shaping the conversation, but we display some sort of agency. Um, it may be at an invisible level or visible level. Uh, this has been mentioned a lot uh recently in interpreting literature. So I believe rather than the conduits, now it's time to talk about our agency as interpreters. And um there are really good excerpts in uh my book, Reimagining Conference, Interpreting in the Age of AI, which display how much time we devote to our profession. Because I remember one of the interpreters telling me, interpreting is my passion, it's my profession. It's what I um think about at the weekends, in the evening. Sometimes I don't go out because I have an assignment next day. I have to prepare for the next assignment. So think of it that way. If you are a conference interpreter, it takes up your days and nights and your life, and it's not something we're showing. We're just in the booth for half an hour. This is what the client sees most of the time, and they believe, oh, they just worked for half an hour. Is it that way, really? No. I have had some assignments for which I had to work 15 days. So think of it that way. I remember one uh beekeeping assignment. It was a simple topic. It looks simple, right? Just beekeeping, but it's not that simple. Because you have to work on the glossary, you have to read a lot of articles about it, you should have some general knowledge about the topic and then specialized knowledge. So you devote a lot of time. It's something that we have to talk about.

SPEAKER_00 55:41

Absolutely. Oh my gosh, yes, I totally agree. I completely agree, actually, because it's again coming out of that behind the scenes and even demonstrating, not even necessarily, I think, to the general public, but I uh perhaps even bilingual individuals that will claim that they can do the same, the same uh level of work without even having an understanding of what it actually takes. Uh, and so for someone that maybe believes that this is not necessarily a profession, but it's something that anyone that can dominate two languages can do, for example, uh, and is all of a sudden introduced to there's all that level of work behind it, suddenly they're interested in maybe getting more training, right? Or interested in going to school for it, which they didn't know about because it's not something that is necessarily at the career fairs and schools, right? Interpreting is a profession. And actually, here's uh, you know, uh Azum um as a professor that is here to talk about it, right? Um, so I I just recognize that it is definitely a need and I'm all for it with regards to shining a light on our profession. Thank you for doing that. You're doing a great job. Thank you, Azum. Okay, so you mentioned something earlier that I'm super interested in knowing about, which is interpreting for presidents, right? American presidents particularly. And I just want to know how, as an interpreter, you've encountered the difficulties of that, especially when it comes to emotion, and especially when it comes to your own self-regulating, perhaps your own beliefs versus whatever it is you're interpreting. And also when you interpret, does it come across really as the individual? Or are there some things that as a as an audience we should know about conference interpreting when it comes to interpreting for US presidents to other uh countries, for example?

Interpreting Presidents And Keeping Current

SPEAKER_01 57:55

Thank you for asking this question. Uh so what is important in interpreting the American presidents or any international events is to keep abreast of the news all the time. So, as an interpreter, as a conference interpreter, you should read The Economist, uh, New York Times, Washington Post, whatever is available in your working languages, and uh get information as much as you can. And then, secondly, if you have been doing this business for a long time, it's always good to keep a glossary. I am a huge believer in the power of pen and uh paper. So I always have a notebook and a pen with me, meaning that I can write down the terms and make them mine. Well, you can always use uh digital tools. Yet again, the question I ask my students is are those terms yours? Can you use them? Can you understand them? So this is the most important part. So keeping abreast of the news, uh, keeping your glossary are the key. And secondly, now that I have interpreted Bush, Biden, Trump, and Obama, it is important to see the difference in their discourse. Obama speaks very differently than Trump. Trump speaks very differently than Biden. They have a certain discourse. You know, as an interpreter, if you have worked with them for a long time, you can even tell the kinds of the words that they can use as presidents because they have a certain discourse and you get to learn them. So this is the most important part of the um of interpreting the US presidents. Know their discourse. Who can use those words? Is it Obama, Biden, Trump? Get to know them really well. Read about, read about um the articles, go to uh White House's webpage and read all about them. Well, let me share a funny story with you. I was very naive. Um I was giving a talk recently at uh U of I, Urbana Champaign, and they asked one of the uh audience asked a question, and uh I answered it as follows. So um they asked me about my uh biggest mistake in interpreting. It's not a big mistake, but it's about the times that I was very naive. Um I began interpreting the US presidents in 2006, and if I'm not mistaken, it was in 2008 that I would be interpreting um the US presidential debates. And it was my first interpretation of the debates. I was totally naive. And you know how I studied for those debates? I read all the debates in US history. Can you imagine that? It was a lot. I was very naive. Yeah, I read all about them. And in the end, after the assignment was over, I learned, well, okay, Ozum, you don't have to work that hard, okay? Keep it really simple. Get to know the recent events and occasions and whatever it is, focus on the recent events, but you don't have to go into the deep part of the history anymore.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:20

So I learned it. It's it helped you in some way.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:27

It did, it helped me a lot, yeah. But it was just too much of reading and too much uh of time. But you know, it was my first time. I was young, I didn't have a family back then. I had all the time in the world, so I think it's my job.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:41

Preparation piece, especially for this particular um, you know, sector of interpreting, is is super critical. Well, in general, I think it's critical. Preparation is always key to great performance as an interpreter, I do believe as well. Uh, but I think especially in going back to the self-awareness piece, regardless of your beliefs, right? And perhaps even keeping your beliefs, political beliefs in mind, it's important that you are self-aware. And just like the emotions component, like you mentioned earlier, uh, if it's something that you know it's going to trigger you, perhaps this isn't the right assignment for you. Um, and so again, knowing how to regulate those emotions um and being neutral in the work that we do, because you know, that is in fact what we do is um being that neutral party there is super critical. And so I for myself can only imagine what that would be like. I think I definitely would um not take an assignment for specific for specific requests um if I were in that sector, for example, but because I am self-aware and I know that I would not be the appropriate interpreter for that. Azum, you have a point. What part of interpreting do you find yourself thinking about most lately?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:20

Very good question. Probably now that I've written this book, I'm more interested in the technology and what it does to our profession. But rather than what it does to our profession, as I told you, we have to focus on what we do. Uh, because now we're talking about what AI is doing, what machine interpreting is doing. Instead, we can focus on what we human interpreters are doing uh in terms of promoting our um profession. I think this is uh what I'm interested in. Again, it takes us to emotions, and I think there is a connection between um the different strands of research that I'm interested in because it all boils down to the humane side of interpreting. But of course, it's highly important to understand the technology. For instance, uh, I am introducing all those tools to my students. How do they use even ChatGPT to prepare for a conference? How uh they can use Notebook LM to prepare for a conference. I think we should introduce all those tools and let them decide what to do with them. You should be open to the technology, yet again, um do not see it as an enemy, use it as a tool.

Tech Without Panic And AI Tools

SPEAKER_00 1:04:38

You know, it makes me think of perhaps a question that is would take us another hour in this uh conversation. But the question that I'm thinking about with regards to the conversation we've had today is is it time for our uh code of ethics to also evolve? Uh just thinking about the students, right, in this case and um the use of technology and how we should be implementing it to make it our ally so that we can grow and evolve with it, as opposed to, I see a lot of professionals out there in this profession that are sharing a lot of do not, do not, right? Do not use AI, do not this, do not that. And and it's like we are cutting ourselves off from this part of the evolution of our profession, in my humble opinion, by telling individuals do not use, uh, as opposed to like you just mentioned, how can we utilize them to make us better in the work that we do and improve it? Because at the end of the day, that is what the tool is. It is a tool for improvement. So, how do we utilize it to improve our profession, improve ourselves? Is the question that comes up. And maybe one day in the future we can have this conversation um with regards to yeah, evolving.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:09

I totally agree. It's time to go over the codes of ethics, but I think there are really good steps taken in this direction, such as um Safe AI is doing a lot these days, and Aik is again uh working on it. So I think uh we are heading towards the right direction.

Rethinking Ethics For A Digital Era

SPEAKER_00 1:06:26

Agreed. As we get ready to close our session today, Ozom, is there anything else that you would like? To share with this audience that has come up during your many years of experience in this profession andor the research that you have conducted that will help uh interpreters new and seasoned with regards to the work that they do.

Reputation, Readiness, And Final Advice

SPEAKER_01 1:06:50

Thank you. So, what I tell my students all the time is if you feel like you are not prepared for an assignment, just don't accept it. Okay. So if you are new in this profession, uh gain experience as much as you can. But if you feel like it's a lot for you, then just don't accept it. And in our profession, reputation is very important. And it takes so many years to build up this reputation, but it takes only five minutes or even one minute or even one word to lose it. Think of it that way. One single mistake may be very harmful for your entire career. It takes a lot of time to build up a career. So please think of it that way. Focus on your reputation, not your income in the first place. Income will definitely uh come as a result of your efforts. But your first goal should not be generating more and more income. First, build your reputation and then um give confidence to your clients, uh, stand up for them, uh work on your uh terminology, work on your terms, uh, do your reading, listen a lot in your working languages, B, C, whatever it is, and then uh you will generate income. But first, build your reputation. And also please learn as much as you can about psychology. Because we talked about the role of emotions and some concepts. So learn all those concepts, what grid is, what growth mindset is, how positive psychology can help you. Because I know now that I'm residing in the United States, we do a lot of community interpreting in the United States. And in community interpreting, vicarious trauma is um gaining in importance. So be aware of what vicarious trauma is, uh how it's impacting you, and talk about your profession. Be out there, stand up for your profession, and most importantly, enjoy what you are doing because it's a profession that we all enjoy, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:07

Absolutely. Azum, thank you so much for your insight, for your knowledge, for sharing about the work that you do, your great stories that I'm sure you know we could put together even a book about that, uh, your different experiences. I very much appreciate you taking the time to sharing all of that on this platform. But before we go, if you could please share with our listeners where they can find out more about you and the work that you do.

Where To Find Ozum

SPEAKER_01 1:09:34

Thank you very much. So I have a webpage, ozumarzik.com. Uh, you can find out more about me over there. Also, I'm working for University of Illinois, Urbana Champaign. Uh, you can uh reach out to me through their webpage as well. Uh, I'm available on LinkedIn. I use LinkedIn a lot as a professional conference interpreter. I suggest you also do that and become more visible now that we're talking about visibility. Um, find me on LinkedIn, my webpage, and the university's webpage. Thank you very much, Mireille, for having me.