Writer's block n' roll - turning tricky tech into copy that converts

For content creators and copywriters, it can often be a challenge to come up with creative ideas when dealing with subjects that are complicated or a little less ‘exciting’ - yet still absolutely necessary. 

That’s why we were thrilled to chat with our very own freelance copywriting legend, Andy Baker.

Andy writes content for a range of industries, including agencies, digital wellbeing, tech, sustainability, music, product design, and fashion. He's a creative wordsmith behind many of our blog posts and always has a quirky idea up his sleeve to help us reach our target audience. 

In this episode, we'll discover how Andy generates such engaging copy. We’ll find out what tech brands can be doing with their content and what you should consider when bringing a freelance copywriter into your strategy.

Interviewer: Vic Heyward https://www.linkedin.com/in/victoriaheyward/

Guest speaker: Andy Baker https://www.linkedin.com/in/andybakercreativecopy/

Podcast produced by Let’s Talk Video Production: https://letstalkvideoproduction.com

Transcript

Welcome to the Big Bright podcast. I'm Vic, Brand Marketing and Communications manager at Bright and today I'm chatting to our very own freelance copywriting legend, Andy Baker.
 
Andy writes content for a range of industries, including agencies, digital wellbeing, tech, sustainability, music, product design, and fashion. He's a creative wordsmith behind many of our blog posts, and always has a quirky idea up his sleeve to help us reach our target audience. In this episode, we'll discover how Andy generates such engaging copy what tech brands can be doing with their content and what you should consider when bringing a freelance copywriter into your strategy.

So, Andy, welcome to the podcast! Thank you so much for being here.

Hi, Vic. Thanks for having me. It's great to be here.

Oh, you're very welcome. Honestly, it's an absolute pleasure. We've been really excited to talk to you. We've been working with you for a few months now and I think just the way that you've adapted to the way our business works and our content and you've understood our brand, just made you an ideal person to come onto the podcast and talk about creativity and how you come up with content. So obviously, we are really, really grateful that you came to join us today, I suppose the best place to start is talking all about you. How did you end up becoming a content writer? Where did you start? Tell me all about your career? Where did it begin?

So it's been a bit of a weird journey. Funnily enough, I actually started working at a tech company many moons ago. That was maybe, 2010 or 2011, and I did webcasting and AV which, by their own admission, is probably not the most exciting stuff to try and build a content strategy around. And then I fell into bid writing and tender writing. That's where I started cutting my teeth and trying to work with product teams, UX designers and getting all the complex stuff out of their heads and make to make it a bit more easy to digest.  They didn't have a major marketing department, but they were thinking we should probably be doing a little bit more with SEO in terms of optimising the site. They had a lot of authority and  loads of external links. So from there, I got into looking after their editorial and writing their blog posts and again, trying to take this really complex stuff and giving it an interesting and quirky spin. And then I really got a taste for it. We got pushed up the Google rankings and it was all going really well.

While I was working there, I went and did a part-time journalism diploma. I had the, you know, quarter-life crisis in my late 20s and then decided it was time to do something else. It was a fast track for six months and then that just got me on to some crazy opportunities. So I was already doing some music journalism for the Brighton source, but it landed me a few gigs at the NME .

Amazing. That's pretty cool. How did that come about then?

I went and did work experience at the NME while I was working and doing the course which was incredible. It was just like an absolute dream come true. I was transcribing interviews with Brandon Flowers from The Killers and writing single reviews and news. From there, from Brighton source, I had something behind me then I went to  do it for Mogwai and my personal dream of meeting like Albert Hammond Jr fom The Strokes.  I got to go to festivals do these amazing gig reviews. So I was really lucky. And it was an amazing time, my life. And also I was doing that while I was probably just about still young enough to do  music journalism. I think I realised it was a bit of a young man's game. I don't think I can hack it anymore.

I don't know why you keep saying this. You keep saying it's a young man's game. Honestly, Baker, you look ridiculously young. I still believe we are both incredibly youthful. So it's absolute rubbish, as far as I'm concerned. But I think it's a really interesting thing. I'm really surprised and
didn't know some of this stuff. How did you switch to freelancing? How did that happen?

While I was still working in Public Eye, I like was dealing with stuff on the side and doing some early freelance bits as well. I then got poached worked at my first agency. So working at a proper ad agency I got some agency experience. Fast forward. I've spent a few years working at different creative agencies. Long story short, we went into lockdown, I was working at my last agency, I'd spoken to friends and stuff and I thnk it's given a lot of people some perspective. I had a lot more time on my hands to kind of think about what I wanted to do. It just all kind of became really clear to me. It's something that I've always thought about doing and people have recommended me doing but like... I'm a writer, I'm terrible at math. So the idea of doing my taxes and stuff, I was just like terrified, you know, with these silly things. You know, what if just don't get the work in I was quite anxious. But then I just took the plunge. One of the things I love most about work at an agency was being around my team, other creatives and bouncing ideas off each other, having that fun. And once that was gone, you know, like, I know some businesses are really good at kind of keeping that culture going. But for me, I kind of felt a little bit isolated and I just thought now's the time to work for myself, you know? So I'm glad I made the leap.

Yeah I definitely feel you there. We try not to talk about COVID too much on our podcast because it's one of those things you feel like everyone was talking about it for a while, but I think a lot of us in agencies or companies have felt quite similar in terms of some people are very successful about keeping culture going and keeping that collaboration going. Others I think have struggled more. I think we've definitely made efforts certainly here at Bright, to keep that company culture feeling alive. I think we've been successful in some areas, less successful in others, we've got another podcast, I think about that. So people can listen to that if they want to. So from your perspective, how is the lockdown affected the way that you now collaborate with other creatives?

Yeah, it's definitely had an impact. And we kind of ended up working in different ways. Me and a designer, we'd leave each other voice notes on Signal and stuff. I've worked in situations where we've had workshops. We used, like Miro which is a collaboration tool, which I think is quite a good one. If you know, you're doing a tone of voice workshop or something, obviously, it's not a major substitute for the real thing but I have found it's been really nice still, because even when I'm not working with creatives, I found that they would still call me. My old Creative Director might call me for advice a campaign he's putting together And likewise, you know, I might send an article to my old designer friend and be like "Do you think this is cool?" Or we'd run some angles off each other. So I find that even though we've been pushed apart, the collaborative spirit has still been there, which has been cool.

Yeah, I think that's always a testament isn't it to people that you definitely respect in the industry, as well, as to whether you want to keep in touch with those sorts of people to still get their perspective. I think if those bonds are strong enough, you'll always try and go back and forth. And I do a very similar thing with people that I've worked with at Bright that have moved on somewhere else, where I'm like: "Actually, what would they think of this?" Just to give myself some reassurance sometimes or get a different perspective. But that also sort of brings me on to the future of collaboration, really, because I was wondering what, if any, if you had any predictions about what that might be, because for me, I'm just desperate to get back to how things were. I know, that's not the reality. And I'd probably still in denial, I think I've been in denial since about February. Last year, I just pretended nothing was happening amd it was all fine. Have you've got any predictions, and  do you see any danger in the future, because of the way that we've all been separated?

Yeah it's really interesting this question. I mentioned my Creative Director, and we've had this chat, because for him personally, he's just like, "I desperately want to get back into the the office I miss", Being around other creatives and being able to bounce ideas off each other. I think, because I moved into freelancing, like, I'm sort of maybe in a bit of a halfway house. I suppose you always have slight rose tinted glasses,  how things were and  I remember sometimes in the agency, we're trying to be creative. And, it doesn't matter what colour you paint the walls, in my opinion, if you're staring at the same wall all week, it can become a bit stagnant.

So I think a balance is crucial. Maybe moving towards a more flexible way of working where you can get together for those big creative meets and have that change in scenery and bring all of your energy to that session, maybe just switch it up a little bit. I know, personally, for me, I fall into bad habits. Like everyone, I'm used to working from home now. And I'm thinking tomorrow, I'm going to go to you know, Small Batch, and I'm going to change the scenery, and I'm going to work there and then, in the end, I manage to write an article from home. But I honestly think it's important to switch up that theory now and again, maybe once or twice a week. It probably does so much good.

Well, what you were just saying about the creatives as a role, if I think about how we all worked before. No matter what your role in a business, even in an agency for example you could work in a finance agency, you could be a creative, you could be doing SEO, or you need to be really analytical. Everyone was working in the same space doing the same thing. We're all going to the same place every day expected to do very different jobs. And when we think about how creatives work, we need to change up the space to move into different spaces. And I think certainly here at the Bright office, which sadly hasn't been used for about a year and a half, we ended up creating specific creative spaces for people in marketing and other teams. We really needed to go other places, not just sit at our desks and try and think about creative campaigns. That doesn't work for us. So I think this hybrid model that you're talking about is definitely the way that it's going. It's interesting to think about the way that we've been conditioned into putting people into rooms and boxes for such a long time. And now people are breaking free. And it's like a weird sort of revolution. And it's quite exciting on one side. For me it feels slightly terrifying at the moment, because people don't want to come back to the office at the moment and I'm really struggling to get my head around that because human interaction is like an essential part. It's my lifeblood. Without being able to bounce things off a natural person, you know, that I can see and touch, I still find that quite difficult.
 
Where would you say that you get most of your inspiration at the moment?

I tell you what, that's one thing that, I can't argue, hasn't been affected by the situation we've been in. Because obviously, when you're stuck in your flat and stuff. Not even just that, you're not having so many real-life conversations with people, and you're not putting yourself into situations with people where you can learn for them, you know, even if it's just down the pub. You might meet a stranger and they give you a fresh hot take on something. I end up just buying a load of books, and I might not read them cover to cover, but I'll just try and find sources of inspiration.

When I wrote an article for you guys about AI, I had the idea, but then I decided to just buy some books on Amazon - quite cheap and stuff used - but I got them there as reference points.

I think just trying to break your general news cycle sites that you might visit, try and read up about different things, staying abreast of tech news and what's coming up in marketing for example. And also be conscious not to follow the trends. It is a fine balance, but try to bring an unexpected approach to an idea. If you've got an idea, just try and attack it from a different angle. You're always going to end up with something maybe slightly interesting. For example, writing about AI, and trying to link it to the fact that it was like the anniversary of artificial intelligence and Terminator 2 and sometimes, things just hit at the right time.

It's one of my favourite articles, as well, I was very grateful for that one, being massively into T2. So what were the last three books that you bought? You can be honest with me. If it isn't the Geri Halliwell autobiography, I won't be offended.

Well, it's going to get a bit serious. So, the Uninhabitable Earth. It's not bedtime reading, I can tell you that much. And Less is More, which, again, trying to imagine a world where we can do more with less consumer items and stuff, but equally, my friend's just lent me the novel that Die Hard was based on. I doubt I'm going to find much to inspire me in there. But you know, it's good to have a mix of things going on.

I think we can probably work with that to be honest. There's bound to be some kind of article that can come from that. It's probably best I don't mention the last three books that I bought then, based on the fact that I mentioned Geri Halliwell's autobiography.

So in terms of topics, you've been working with us for quite a while now. We're primarily Digital Asset Management focused, and you did a brilliant job of turning that into something interesting because we've done a lot of top-of-funnel content with you and recently, we've been doing a bit more middle-of-funnel and bottom-of-funnel content as well, which has been great. You've really grasped that quite well. But what topics genuinely excite you?

I mean, I've got to admit, I do love getting some sort of pop culture, but linking it to something more serious. It's almost like a Vox article or something. I quite like writing stuff like that. I studied Film Studies at University.  I'm a massive music geek as well.

Again, it's a bit serious, but I think we have not just a corporate responsibility, but personal responsibility and if we've got the platform to write that sort of responsible content. So, for example you might use a sustainability angle - well that just kind of makes me cringe because it's bigger than an angle. But it's important to use that platform to have something of value to say. We're so used to working in a certain way, it's good to maybe look at things slightly differently. There's so much misinformation now. I don't blame any individual. Because I think, if you get aggregated content on social and sent down a certain path, how could you think any different than what you're reading? So, I think there's an opportunity for people to use their platform to say something of value and inform people. So I quite like combating the greenwashing with some content that adds value, you know,

So similarly, are there any subjects that you would never write about or that you hate?

When GDPR was a thing, I was writing a lot data compliance content. To talk about this topic and add an interesting spin was probably the biggest challenge I had. But I think now personally, I'm more interested in working with clients that are at least kind and well-meaninged. If it's quite an awful corporation that are doing bad things, I've got to kindly say no. Recently I did some work with a client who's really lovely and she was running around digital wellbeing companies. So doing that digital detox stuff, especially after I just watched like The Social Dilemma and I was really questioning my own endless scrolling, I thought this is a really good thing and got a real buzz out of doing that because I thought it's adding some value. We all consume, we all need to create products and stuff but I'm conscious of their processes and they are trying to add a little good to the world and not just take from it is  a plus for me.

One of the brilliant things about working with you is your creative approach to content and the way that you take out the headache for me. You come up with all the ideas and it's one of the really stressful things about being a Marketing Manager or a Brand Manager or even sometimes just being responsible for the content strategy, is knowing the sorts of content that we need to get out there. I understand the themes, but can't necessarily come up with all of the creative ideas. So as somebody who is creating content for a SAS tech company, how do you come up with the ideas when the subject can be either quite complicated and- I can probably say - dry sometimes? We were talking about GDPR a few minutes ago, I don't think ours is that dry. I think we've got some really interesting stuff around tech, but some of the themes can be a little bit complex. What do you think the key focus for brands should be when they're creating content?

It sounds super obvious, but just never create content for the sake of it. If you're thinking, right, I should be creating content, and we need to get it out there, you're on the backfoot.
I think you should always be thinking about what you can do to create something that's got value. It's a hard task thinking about what you can create that hasn't been said before. And you're not always going to be able to succeed. If you write something that's middle or low down the funnel, it's hard because there is a lot of content out there that's similar. So that's when you have to think, right, how can I attack it? How can I take a different approach? How can I come at it from a different angle? I think the stuff that's so important for brands is having that tone of voice locked down. Don't just take a colloquial, cheeky tone of voice because that's the hot thing to do. But if it weren't for your brand, and it ties in with your values. Now, I think that we're about bright, it makes sense. And if you adopt that tone of voice, all your comms are going to be really consistent.

And a really basic one is just before I start coming up with an idea before you start writing. When I think about the idea, I just think would I want to read this, it's always the target persona, but like that will just give you an inkling that actually it's just of interest. Yeah, the big one, I think as well, don't be afraid to take on something that's challenging to you. I think if it feels uncomfortable, what you're attacking, like, I remember writing about like NF Ts and Bitcoin, which I know absolutely nothing about, there are loads of people in the same boat as me, they don't know what it is. They don't know whether it's something they should be like investing in. And that felt like an uncomfortable fit. For me, I knew that it was something we should probably talk about. But I was just like, this is gonna be a challenge. But if it's a challenge, it means you're going to put more into it. And you're going to do more research. And you're going to be more aware that you don't want to show yourself up. So you do the work. And then you get good content.

I was massively grateful for that piece of content. I think it was so timely and worked amazingly working with our PR agency as well. We'd already started having conversations about NFTs, so it was such a great position to be in. It's quite rare sometimes when you can go "ah! I have some content about that already." We already felt that we were slightly ahead of the game. That's why working with somebody who's doing that and thinking about those sorts of things, and taking that creative approach really makes a difference. So yeah, I mean, thank God for Jar Rule. That's my main takeaway, I think from phases general. I can't remember how much it was he sold the Fyre Festival logo for, but it was a creation I think that he'd made on his own. I think he sold a painting of the Fyre Festival logo for $230,000. I need to check the blog post.

It's interesting because we've been talking about a lot with Digital Asset Management and how NFTs really work with DAM. How relevant is that? And I think it's a challenging one because I think with NFTs, people are trying to house and secure those digital assets and not necessarily share them so freely. But I'm sure it's a conversation that's going to continue. So yeah, that was definitely a good one. You were on the ball on that.

What would you say is your process then? You know, we're talking about how to create engaging content - Where do you start with that stuff?

I feel like it's actually got a lot easier since I've gone freelance. Although it's the same problem and I'm still working with clients, I still need to come up with ideas, but being outside of an agency setting feels like the pressure has been slightly taken off me. Maybe it's just knowing I can do it in my own time.

I think it's a case of just doing the desktop research and trying to immerse yourself in what's going on. It might be a mix of just looking at the news. I do a really basic check of looking at what big key events have happened in the year, you know, what anniversaries might be coming up, and then digging a little deeper into that. And sometimes that can take you down a bit of a rabbit hole. I often do that and I might think I've got nothing here and then I go to bed and then I wake up at like one in the morning and suddenly something's there and I scribble something down on paper and look at it bleary-eyed in the morning. You feel like it was genius at the time. But instead you think, what is this? It's nonsense, but yeah, it could happen in the cinema. That's happened before. It can happen down the pub very often and if I'm relaxed. I'm going out for a run and then suddenly something will come and I'll quickly stop and type it into a message on my phone or something. So I think if you just ease the pressure, I think this is the same with any job, if you take the pressure off yourself, the ideas can be a bit more free-flowing. So just giving yourself time to get there.

It's that the same sort of thing, I suppose, about writer's block? I was going to ask a question about that. Really, it's just a way of alleviating the pressure. Changing the scene, changing the space, just doing something different and not stressing as much. I mean, it certainly does with me, when I'm sitting there thinking, "Oh, my God, I've got to think of something quick."

So I think writer's block is a bigger issue. I think it's not just a creative thing. I think this is a human thing. And I think we put so much pressure on ourselves to be on all the time, you know, we have off days, and we have on days and the godsend of going freelance is that if I feel like I'm having an off day... You know, if I was working at the agency, I used to sit there and get really stressed and think, "God, I'm pulling teeth! Why doesn't it come?" But now I'm well aware that these things will happen. Sometimes they happen more often than I'd like, but I just stop at that point. I go and have a run and do my really basic admin tasks, catch up on my finances, I'm going to give myself a little push on LinkedIn or whatever. And then I'll come back to it tomorrow, or whatever. It's the guilt that I haven't done what I needed to do the day before, but I guarantee that when you came back to it the next day you're going to have a much better day with it. That's just been the way it works for me.

Such a mature way of approaching it. I just sit there in total paralysis, just staring. Certainly, if you were hired as a content writer for an agency or a business having that sort of pressure and knowing that's your role here to come up with that sort of stuff. So I can imagine it quite stressful. So going freelance now must have been just quite a refreshing thing and giving you that freedom to manage your timetable as you need. I assume with that then obviously communication with your clients is essential because they might be expecting content on a certain day.

So how do you deal with that then if they're expecting something from you?

I always keep myself ahead of the game anyway, so when that does happen, I'm not going to be falling behind on deadlines. I use Google Calendar but I also write myself a timetable for the month and I plot in the days. I usually give myself more time than I need for every task. I might pull out free days to write a long-form article. And actually, if it's taking me like a day and a half of research and planning ahead, it means I never fall behind. So I've allowed myself that buffer. It's almost like playing a mind trip on yourself. Thinking you give yourself way more time than you need. Because when you have that time, you never do it in time, you always fall behind a little bit. But because you've planned ahead, you're never stuck, and you never let anybody down. So yeah, it's a weird mental dance.

Well, I haven't had any complaints so far in terms of delays. So I'm going to say you've pretty much got it down by the sounds of it. Feedback is going to be quite a huge part of that as well. And open honest feedback is something that's really important to us here at Bright, and we definitely try to deliver timely considered and constructive feedback. I'm very aware that people don't always like giving feedback. It doesn't come naturally to everyone. I've experienced people finding it very daunting and worrying that it will hurt people's feelings and they don't know where to start. So have you got any advice that you would give for people that are giving feedback? How can they deliver it, how can they get the best out of a content writer to make it a successful relationship and positive relationship?

Firstly, you guys do a really, really good job at feedback. I can see it from both sides. Because I think when you're a copywriter, or a designer or anybody creating something it can be a terrifying experience. And it doesn't matter how long you've been doing the job, you're always going to have that imposter syndrome, and you'll feel a bit paralysed.

I never deliver anything unless I think it's ready and I've done a good job. I might sit on it for a couple of days and go back to it but it doesn't take away the fact that you're putting yourself out there and it's quite a scary thing. When I've given people feedback, I've been conscious that someone's put themselves out there. I think this is when having a really good detailed brief or strategy is paramount so that before you start a project, everyone's clued up on it. The work is only as good as the brief is and the strategy that's underpinning everything. If you're clued up then the feedback is going to be quite minor. But yeah, just being kind, just being conscious that this is someone's baby and they're already kind of paralysed by it.

Be constructive and realise that you're all on the same team and no one's trying to catch anybody out. Everybody just wants to create great work and have a successful business. When I talk with designers and brands strategists, I'll happily take feedback from a designer. I don't think, oh, they're not a copywriter? They're bringing a fresh perspective. Crossing the stream between departments and getting other people in can be so brilliant for creative work.

Sometimes you can be in situations where you get feedback from people that maybe don't agree with the feedback. Maybe you think that actually, the suggestions they're making are potentially damaging for the concept you've created. What we're describing here is that ideal situation where people are all on the same page. In larger corporate, sometimes somebody will say they just don't like it or they think that's a terrible idea, or that's not going to work for their audience, or they'll just change the tone or whatever it is. How do you think you would handle that situation?

You should be able to feel confident enough to stand by your work and stand by your guns, as long as you've got the rationale to back it up. I've been there before and that's not constructive. There should be rationale on both sides. Someone should give evidence as to why it doesn't work. For example I don't think it's going to work for a target audience or the tone of voice doesn't match our brand.  I suppose it's like any good marketing. It should be backed up by evidence. You need to be able to evidence everything you're doing if it's not working... but they can evidence 'why', you know, I'd never had a problem changing it. As I said, you should be able to stand by your work as well. If you're confident and you've done the work, you've done the research yet sometimes, like I said, too many chefs can spoil the broth. So you want to cross the streams, but you don't want everybody chipping in with feedback, because that's going to make things hideously inconsistent. So I'd say, assign one person that's the right person who's got that diplomatic approach, but also knows this stuff.

Yeah, I think it's a really good tip, actually. Because, yeah, it's it's very tempting sometimes to get people involved in stuff but sometimes we invite too many people to the party, and the party just becomes horrendous. And then everyone just wants to leave. So I totally agree that I think choosing your stakeholders really carefully. Having one sort of conduit sometimes for feedback is a really good thing to do. We certainly try and package things up if we can in one, go or go through and give a good explanation for why you think that something's wrong. Just like you were saying, you know, 'I don't like' it isn't feedback, that's not helpful. How can we enable you to make the changes you need to make and be as best informed as you possibly can. We're giving some quite good tips here anyway, but we do like to try and give our audience some tangible hints and tips to take away from the podcast. So if anyone was out there that are looking to maybe partner up with a freelance content creator, have you got any tips for for a successful relationship? I'm sure feedback was probably in there. So we might have covered some of that.

Firstly, I mean, go on LinkedIn lookup Andy Baker. Yeah, I think don't be afraid to do it. I think it's become more of a popular thing now to kind of work with freelancers, not over agencies, but people are less afraid to pick up a freelancer rather than just go through the process of working with an agency. Obviously, it does streamline the approach you know, if you just work with one person, you're going to get there a little bit faster. It's a case of just getting someone on board that you have a good rapport with. Someone who can integrate themselves into your team that you click with because obviously, they're going to be the only kind of person to speak to you're not going to have an account manager or any of these other contacts that you'd have when you work with an agency. Bring someone in that you feel like they could be like an extension of your team but also understand like Like I said, you guys are so good at this but there are instances where some clients might expect to work with someone as if they are like a member of staff but obviously there are none of the benefits so, there's got to be respected there that someone's trying to run a business as well. You can be very clear with each other about the capacity and how much work you can deliver a month.

Freelancer is not going to be overpromising and disappoint the client, just be really upfront about your capacity and be honest to each other and know everybody wants it to be a success so understand that we're not robots. I think it could be like a really really great thing but just as you would hire any member of staff just kind of do your due diligence and make sure you click with a person. There are so many great freelancers out there and you can find plenty of people on LinkedIn. Their portfolios are there for you to see. Whether it be designing or whether it be their Medium, you can see their work firsthand.

So LinkedIn is a good place to start looking, Medium is a good place for people to learn. Is there anywhere else that you'd suggest that they look for people?

You could probably find some stuff in social. But being like grandpa over here who is trying to limit his Social Media usage, so I only really use LinkedIn these days. But I'm on Instagram or whatever, you might be able to find some hot tips.

Definitely. I mean, the only other place I would probably recommend as well is co- working space. There's lots of co-working spaces around at the moment. We're really lucky enough in our building to have one called Platform Nine, which is full of amazing creatives. And you can post things out on their their job boards, and there's always sort of people looking for new creative opportunities. So that's always a good place to start. I'm totally with you on the relationship side of things and how to build that. I think it's being realistic about your expectations as a person employing the freelancer, so think about your capacity, what your expectations are, and try and map those out at the beginning and see if they match very well with the person that you're going to be working with. And your expectations could be totally crazy. I think it's also on the freelance person as well sometimes to realign those things. And I think sometimes just give people a bit of a trial run. Try working on one piece of content together, see how we get on. And a good brief I think, would be my tip, as well as making sure that you brief somebody properly and effectively. So if you're going to give them a trial run, don't just say, 'well, I want to be a content written about this.' Actually do some research. If you need keyword research doing, do it yourself, or you could ask them to do if that's one of their skills, but briefs are probably the best way to set someone up for success.

You're so right. The brief is everything. As I said, the work is as only as good as the brief. It's in the client's best interest to give a great brief, because then you don't have to do so much, if any, back and forth. And the amends and stuff as well, which the freelancer would have to factor into their day rate. They're going to have an extra day of amends and stuff, which I tend to try not to factor in. I try and factor in research time, ideation time and writing, role in the ammend. Because I think if the briefs are right, and you're locked in the strategy, then that's minimal amend time.

So I have one final question for you. So this is this could be you doing anything. It doesn't have to be creating content for fabulous people like me, but what would be your dream role or dream industry to work in?

If you'd asked me when I was a 15-year-old boy, I would have said I want to be a Gonzo journalist and go out on the road with some really cool bands. I've experienced some of that now I'm too old. So that's over. So if I wasn't going to have a vegan taco truck in Brighton then I'm pretty happy with what I'm doing. And I'm currently working with an old colleague of mine, and we're going to be working with more and more clients to help them with their sustainability targets. So trying to go for the bigger companies, The Sleeping Giants, that know that they've got the capacity to make a bit of a difference, but maybe don't know quite how to do it. We're working with them on their advertising and their copy and taking a bit of a hit on the bottom line ourselves and asking them to do the same. And then the money that we make will go towards a project of their choosing. So it could be tree planting, or it could be getting running water in a village or doing something that is trying to change the landscape of the advertising industry a little bit. Sometimes it's got a bit of a bad name and just trying be part of the solution instead of the problems. So that's my serious note for the end of the podcast.

Amazing. Well, that sounds pretty good to me. Well, don't leave me just yet, will you? I'll need you for a little bit longer when we're doing some more content.

So I've just got to say me, it's an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for joining us. You've given us loads of really interesting insight into the way that you work. And yes, if anybody is looking, obviously, don't steal him from me. But if anybody is looking for a freelance copywriter, we are going to be creating a blog post to go alongside this podcast so we'll put Andy's contact details on there. Maybe don't get in touch immediately because I've got some plans for him for the next few months. Yeah, thank you. Once again, it's been an absolute pleasure. We really, really appreciate it.

Thanks so much. It's been lovely. Always a pleasure talking to you and thanks for having me. 
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