Knowing your customer is key for any business endeavor, it requires knowing more than their names, ages, and incomes. And according to Matt Schlegel, Principal at Schlegel Consulting : Evolutionary Team Effectiveness, personal dynamics cannot only help you understand your customers better but can also help you create a more effective team.
In this episode, Matt explains about the Enneagram, its 9 types of personalities, and how it could help you identify your own, your team members, and your customers' personality dynamics, so you could communicate with them more effectively.
Learn more about the Enneagram on Matt's book Teamwork 9.0, and how it could help with team problem-solving processes.
In return, I will continue to bring massive value with two weekly shows, up to 3 hours per month of brilliant conversations and insights.
Monthly subscriptions start at $3 per month. At $1 per hour, that's much less than the minimum wage, but we'll take what we can at this stage of the business.
Of course, this is still free, but as an entrepreneur, the actual test of anything is if people are willing to pay for it.
If I'm adding value to you, please support me by clicking the link now.
Knowing your customer is key for any business endeavor, it requires knowing more than their names, ages, and incomes. And according to Matt Schlegel, Principal at Schlegel Consulting : Evolutionary Team Effectiveness, personal dynamics cannot only help you understand your customers better but can also help you create a more effective team.
In this episode, Matt explains about the Enneagram, its 9 types of personalities, and how it could help you identify your own, your team members, and your customers' personality dynamics, so you could communicate with them more effectively.
Learn more about the Enneagram on Matt's book Teamwork 9.0, and how it could help with team problem-solving processes.
In return, I will continue to bring massive value with two weekly shows, up to 3 hours per month of brilliant conversations and insights.
Monthly subscriptions start at $3 per month. At $1 per hour, that's much less than the minimum wage, but we'll take what we can at this stage of the business.
Of course, this is still free, but as an entrepreneur, the actual test of anything is if people are willing to pay for it.
If I'm adding value to you, please support me by clicking the link now.
Hello and welcome to this episode of The UnNoticed Entrepreneur Show. Today, I'm delighted to have joining me all the way from Palo Alto, Matt Schlegel.
Matt Schlegel:
Great to be here. Thank you so much, Jim.
Jim James:
Matt, now tell us about the Enneagram. You've got a book out recently, and you're an expert on the Enneagram. For those of us that don't understand what that is, what it is, first of all, how it could be used for communication?
Matt Schlegel:
Yeah. So once again, thank you for having me on. The Enneagram, it's a very powerful tool that it's most commonly understood as a personality dynamics tool. And you, it describes these nine distinct personal or personality dynamics each with its own underlying motivations, each with its own underlying communication styles and needs. And so, you know, and this is how the Enneagram is commonly understood and, and used by many people. It's, it's, it's wonderful. You know, when I first learned the Enneagram, I discovered more about myself than I'd ever understood before. And, and once you start on that journey of, 'Wow, okay, so this is what's going on inside of me.' and, and really understand, understanding that, then you start to realize, 'Oh, well not everybody is like me.' And you start to see, you know, these nine distinct styles emerge from the people you know some are really obvious, some are not so obvious. It takes a while to get there, but it's, it's so powerful in terms of, you know, understanding your own style, understanding how your style works with other styles and then, you know, getting to your second point about communication. Understanding how each one of these styles is essentially they have, you know, for lack of a better word, a filter and, and knowing how to use words that get through the filter to the person you're trying to communicate is, is very powerful. And if you just stay in your own style and you communicate the way that, you know, your style would communicate, guess what? That's great for communicating with other people of your style.
Jim James:
Right.
Matt Schlegel:
That's why birds of a feather flock together. It's like we get each other.
Jim James:
So Matt, I can't let you go on any further without explaining if I, if I can test you on what are those personality types? Is that okay to ask you what are those?
Matt Schlegel:
Of course, And, so there are nine distinct styles and then really interesting thing about the Enneagram is they use numbers. So, you know, in the most generic way, it's type one, type two, all the way through type nine. Because there's no one word that describes each one of those types 'cause we're all very complex people. But there are words that are commonly associated with them so that, you know, Type one would be the perfectionist, Type two is the helper, Type three is the achiever, Type four is the romantic, Type five is the observer, Type six is the loyalist, Type.seven.is the enthusiast, Type eight is the boss, and Type nine is the harmonizer or peacemaker. So, you know, so those are some of the words that are commonly associated with each one of those types, but you can kind of start to get a flavor of, you know, what each one of these types is, is bringing to the party.
Jim James:
So interesting. And then the Enneagram, what was the foundation of that? Where did, where did it start?
Matt Schlegel:
Yeah. So it's ancient system with, you know, roots traceable back to a couple thousand years ago. It, it became popularized in the west by a Russian named Gurdjieff. And so he brought the system, you know, kind of in, into the, the conversation around the end of the last century. And then, a psychologist named Oscar Ichazo really took that and started to develop personality dynamics profiles associated with the Enneagram that we now all commonly understand. And then it really flourished in the sixties and the seventies. and, I'm, I am fascinated. Now, if you, if you go on to say YouTube and type in Enneagram, the millennials have just really taken to this. And so there's a lot of content out there.
Jim James:
Oh, how interesting, how interesting. And so, yeah, I had to confess, I hadn't heard of Enneagram.probably more my ignorance than anybody else's. So how can an entrepreneur, take these Enneagram tests, but also more importantly, what tools have you developed and are you talking about in your book to help entrepreneurs to use that, to enhance their communication?
Matt Schlegel:
Right, right. Well, you know, so there's, you know, tests that you can take, you know, I have a complimentary test on my website and, and, you know, so you can take that. And usually what happens is you'll score highly on two or three types, and that's kind of the starting point, you know, don't, don't put a lot of weight into which one you score highest on. Take the top two or three 'cause like the first time I took the test, I scored highest on eight. And it turns out that I wasn't an eight. I was actually six. That was my second highest scoring. But I was in an environment where I had to exhibit a lot of eight type behaviors. And so that's why I was like, 'Oh yeah, that's me. That's me. That's me.' So anyway, that that's a, that would be the starting point so feel free to, you know, find that on my website and you, you could take that. And then, you know, as a communication tool, the really important thing is to understand is that each one of these styles has a distinct way of communicating and listening. And so, you know, when I'm doing business development for my consultancy, I kind of have an idea of the types of Enneagram that the Enneagram types that are associated with different roles in a company. So like for instance, a CFO, it's likely going to be a type one. And so, when I'm going to meet with CFO, I'll start off with words that resonate with that perfectionist. You know, we're going to get you the information, we're going to make sure it's right, we're going to, you know, calculate things down to, you know, my new detail, you know. So these are all the things that, you know, are going to appeal to a type one. And so, you can frame your messaging as an entrepreneur, if you know your audience and you know generally the Enneagram style of, of your audience, you can tailor your messaging to really resonate with them. And, and so that's, you know, one very effective way to use the Enneagram as a communication tool.
Jim James:
Yeah. And that is fascinating, that.raises all sorts of questions about the posts, and the kind of avatar that you have for your business. Doesn't it?
Matt Schlegel:
Exactly. Exactly. You know, what Enneagram type are you exuding? And then who's that going to attract? And, and the Enneagram can help you understand all that.
Jim James:
Well, and I guess that's both for employees and for partners and for present and future, right.
Matt Schlegel:
Exactly, and business leaders, if you're growing a team of people, you know what, you know, and this is why I think that the Enneagram is so effective for leaders is because it allows you to really understand the underlying motivation of your teammates. And so that when you're you know, working with your team, you can understand, 'Okay, well, this person really wants, they're the type two, they really want to help. They need appreciation. So I'm going to put them into a role where they're helping people and they're getting appreciation. And in that role, they will love it and they will thrive.' And so just, you know, tailoring the way you even structure your team can be helped greatly by an understanding Enneagram.
Jim James:
So Matt, tell us about your book then, because you got some tools, haven't you, that companies can use. So do you want to share with us, how you guide people through this?
Matt Schlegel:
Right, right. Well, thank you. You know, so, so we've been talking about the Enneagram as a, as a personality system. I actually have an engineering background, so I love systems, in general. And one of the things I noticed when I looked at the Enneagram, it's a circle that surrounded by number. Kind of looks like almost the clock. So I'm thinking, well, why, why is it a circle and why is it numbers like a clock? And I did a little more research and I discovered that it's also a system. And the order is of the numbers represents the order of those dynamics that appear as you move around the circle, it essentially becomes a, a problem solving process. So for instance, what's the first step and problem solving? It's 'Hey, there's a problem. It shouldn't be like that. It should be like this.' Well, that is exactly the dynamic of type one the perfectionist. Because the perfectionist is the first one to say, 'Hey, it shouldn't be like that. It should be like this.' Right, and on around. And so, understanding that, I developed a problem solving, a team problem solving methodology that you can use with your teams, and it allows you to essentially accomplish amazing things with teams as you systematically worked through that process.
Jim James:
Okay, Matt, and what is the book called? Just give it a shout.
Matt Schlegel:
Yeah, it's called Teamwork 9.0. And you know, the nine is for the nine Enneagram types. And it's getting, you know, it it's, one of the things there, there's a lot of books about the Enneagram out there. But I didn't see a book about how to use it as this team problem solving process. So that's why I wrote the book is there's this whole other great use case for the Enneagram that I wanted to share with the world.
Jim James:
That's nice, Matt. So, and presumably that's available on Kindle and audio books and everything else, right.
Matt Schlegel:
Yep. And we're working on the audio book, but you can find the, the Kindle and the paperback book on Amazon now.
Jim James:
Wonderful. But Matt, you know, this is a show about marketing and entrepreneurs can get noticed. So can you tell us with, with your methodology, how do you think an entrepreneur could use that to solve a marketing problem?
Matt Schlegel:
Right. That, that's such a great question. When you're working through problem solving, the step one is very clearly defining the problem, and then creating your goals, right. It should be like this, so it's the should and the shouldn't. And in that step one, you create that vision for what you want to accomplish, and then you can use the rest of the steps is like step two is, it's the helper it's like, 'Who can help me? Who can help me realize this vision?' Right. And this is where that, you know, as a six, right. I know I'm not the best marketer. I know that's not my strength. But there's many people with strengths in marketing, like you, Jim who, you know, really understand that. And so I now seek help guidance and direction from people who are great at marketing. And then I get their ideas and then go to three is test them out, figure out which ones are having the most positive energy, figuring out how to implement them, and then you move around so that you create this marketing plan where you get all the way to implementation and then you test it. So that's how I'm using it in, in my marketing is just to make sure I'm hitting all of those points in problem solving as I move around.
Jim James:
I really liked that because often, especially in, say PR or marketing, we ended up sort of thinking of it as a creative, only problem, or maybe a budget problem, and yet you're making it so that you're appealing, sort of, to a much broader spectrum of personality types who would evaluate that Prolo more like the de Bono six hats where you take different views on the same problem.
Matt Schlegel:
Exactly. You know, that's, that's another, another way of looking at it is, you get stuck in your own way of looking at things and, and your own perspective. And if you deliberately seek out guidance from the other Enneagram types in your world, then you will get all of these fresh perspectives that help you move around and, and solve your problems. So that's, that's absolutely, that's a great point.
Jim James:
Yeah, and.I like that Matt and that there is sort of three dimensions.out.there is your solving your own marketing problem. But also as we talked earlier, if you think about your avatar and your ideal customer profile is, or member of staff, if you can identify what their Enneagram profile is, you can adjust your vocabulary accordingly.
Matt Schlegel:
Exactly.
Jim James:
Or your images. And so on, accordingly.
Matt Schlegel:
Exactly. Exactly. Because each Enneagram type will respond more positively or negatively to an, an image. Right. So if you know who that persona is that you're trying to target to, you can really hone in on the message.
Jim James:
Question do do people change where they are on the wheel or either over buying lifecycle, for example, or over, know, a product introduction life they one, but maybe become a two, but once they bought the product become a four, they change a personality wise? That's question. And, and the, the, the way I answer that, cause, cause people often have this question and, there's, there's a couple of ways to answer it, but one is, are you right-handed or left-handed? Obviously, I'm right-handed yeah.
Matt Schlegel:
Okay. Now, do you have a left hand?
Jim James:
Yup.
Matt Schlegel:
Do you use your use, your left hand?
Jim James:
I do. Indeed.
Matt Schlegel:
Right. So, you know, generally we have a dominance of one of the Enneagram type. It doesn't mean we don't have the other types in us. It doesn't mean we don't have access to them when we need them, because I'm, right-handed, often used my right hand, but when I need to, when I'm typing I'm using my left hand. Right. So it's, it's there. So, so that's one thing. And then the other thing that as people understand the Enneagram more, you'll see in the diagram, there's these lines within the circle and every Enneagram type is connected to two other types. And these represent how your behaviors change when either your in a relaxed, comfortable place or in a stress place.
Jim James:
Oh, that is very interesting.
Matt Schlegel:
Yes. So, when you see somebody that, you know, and then you see them start to behave in a different way, it's.like.with.the type, let's, let's pick on the type one, right. You know, the type one is very concerned about getting it right all the time, but then, you know, they go on vacation and all of a sudden, all of that disappears that all they want to do is just have fun and they just forget all that other stuff. And that's their movement to type seven in that relaxed place. And then on the other hand, when they get overwhelmed, you know, and all of these problems start building up, then you can see them move to type four, which this is kind of this emotional, almost slightly depressed state. And so you can see that the Enneagram represents those motions depending on where they are personally in their life.
Jim James:
And that has a massive impact from a marketing perspective, because when we talk about customer journeys, not only in the buying process, but are they on the way to holiday when they see the, the article or are they reading on the beach is an entirely different place on the Enneagram than if they're going to work and they've, you know, had a stressful weekend.
Matt Schlegel:
Exactly.
Jim James:
Yeah. That's.very.Interesting. So.that.has.some.Impact as well, then probably on, on SEO word selection too, doesn't it?
Matt Schlegel:
That's right. And where people will be. If you're trying to solve a problem for highly stressed people, then you want to know what's going on for that when they're in that stress state and how to reach them even when they're in their stress state. And it's harder in the stress state because you, people tend to become a little more myopic in that. And so you have to be even more targeted in your messaging.
Jim James:
Wow. Okay. That is really, really powerful that this is obviously a huge subject and I'm looking forward to reading your book. But Matt, how as an entrepreneur and you've worked in Japan, which is fantastic, and now you're back in the states, how are you getting noticed? And getting your new book working out?
Matt Schlegel:
Well, you know, for one I'm doing my virtual book tour now. I launched the book in middle of the pandemic, so it's all been virtual. So I really appreciate the opportunity to, to speak to you and your audience. That's, that's one way that I'm doing. And I, and I love it. You know, just meeting so many great people like yourself and, and do a lot of writing. You know, I like writing, I wrote a book, so I'm leaning into that and writing blogs and articles. I have this tent pole strategy on my website where there's certain points that I'm trying to emphasize, like leadership and teamwork and decision-making and Enneagram. And I write articles in each one of those areas that gets picked up by the search engines and I just drive traffic to my website that way. So yeah, a number of different techniques that I'm and having a lot of fun with. And, and the thing I would give advice to anybody is try a lot of things, and then stick with the ones that you really like doing, because those are the ones you'll keep doing. And if you can find that intersection of the things you doing and the things that are effective, that's where the magic is.
Jim James:
Matt. You're absolutely right, because actually there so many demands on time, otherwise, aren't there? So many channels. amplification tool like or buffer to send in an automated way. But if you're going to engage with an have to focus. Totally, that's absolutely great advice. Matt Schlegel, how can people find out about you?
Matt Schlegel:
Yeah, well, the, the best way would be to visit my website, which is evolutionaryteams.com. All one word, evolutionaryteams.com. And you.can find out more about the book, you can see what I'm writing about and, feel free to contact me. You'll find the tests there as well. And if you take the test and you want to have a conversation, reach out and I'd be happy to guide you through.
Jim James:
Well, Matt, I've really enjoyed our conversation. You've.taught.me.huge.amount. Thank you So much for sharing about the Enneagram and all the implications that there are for understanding which of the nine profile types we are, but also our respective audiences are. So.thank.you.so.much. for sharing those insights today.