The UnNoticed Entrepreneur - how to overcome being overlooked.

Why measurement is good Carma for your sales funnel.

September 07, 2021 Jim James
The UnNoticed Entrepreneur - how to overcome being overlooked.
Why measurement is good Carma for your sales funnel.
Show Notes Transcript

Making a noise in public without measurement is going to lead to wasted money, time and creates a reputation risk. After all we don't start manufacturing something and never check on quality or output at any stage in the process, so why would that work for what your company says about itself; and increasingly what other say about you. Jack Richards of Carma shares how having people to help is important to complement all the technology available, and that a measurement service is surprisingly affordable.

If you want to know how to get noticed this show is for you. I have interviews, tools, tips, everything that an entrepreneur could need in order to help their organization to get noticed for free. Thank you for joining me on the unnoticed show.

Buzzsprout - Let's get your podcast launched!
Start for FREE

Please rate the show here.

Thank you for listening to this episode of the unnoticed to show. I hope that you've enjoyed. If you have, please do rate it on any of the players. If you'd like more information, go over to EASTWEST PR and subscribe to our weekly newsletter. Or connect with me on Linkedin that's just Jim James.  I'd be delighted to connect with you and let me know how i can help you to get noticed.


Descript is what I use to edit the show.
All-in-one audio & video editing, as easy as a doc.

Media relations all in one platform
Prowly has everything you need to get your PR work done.

Social listening - google alert killer!
Generate leads and market your product using social listening

Get Otter with 1-month FREE Pro Lite
Generate rich notes for meetings, interviews, lectures, and other important voice conversations.

Support the show (https://lovethepodcast.com/Unnoticed)

Jim James:

Hello, and welcome to this episode of the UnNoticedshow today. I'm delighted to have Jack Richards, who's joining me from south London and Jack, welcome to the UnNoticed show.

Jack Richards:

Thank you very much for having me very excited.

Jim James:

Now Jack you are the global marketing manager for a company called Carma, which is a media relations and monitoring service been in business since 1984. Right.

Jack Richards:

Correct? Yes. So, been around since 1984, we were chatting just before this weren't we, and I was explaining how our marketing function didn't really exist until a few years ago. So I'm sure we'll have plenty to chat about.

Jim James:

Yeah. And I wanted to have you on the show because I've known Carma since 1996 in Singapore. when a chap called Jim McNamara came and shared with me about measurement. And what I wanted to do was to really ask you. How Carma and measurement can help the business owner to, to get noticed and understand how they're getting noticed. So do you want to just tell us how does Carma work and how does it work for entrepreneurs?

Jack Richards:

Carma, the way we operate is we are client first. We are expert led and we are data driven. And I think particularly for a lot of the listeners today, those will be really important factors. what does that mean in relation to what it's about media monitoring, measurement and evaluation, and we want to help our clients. We want to help. PR agencies, marketers, communicators demonstrate the value of PR demonstrate the work they are doing.

Jim James:

That's great for the agencies to justify themselves. Right. What about for the business owner? Why should they care Jack? Because often, you know, it's, they put out some information into the marketplace and they carry on, how can you help them to, for example, understand what their audiences are really thinking, because there's a company grows, the owner of the business will find it harder and harder to know what people are thinking about their business and the market. So how do you help with that?

Jack Richards:

Yeah, I think you've hit the nail on the head there with that sort of factor. I believe that there are lots and lots of marketing comms, PR teams that as they grow, they sort of don't make that transition necessarily from tactical execution to, strategic thinking. And the problem with that is that their measurement is all tied in with that. And any marketer or communicator will measure stuff in some form. But at the start of that sort of measurement journey, that measurement maturity, if you like, people will be counting stuff. And the problem with counting stuff is you just do stuff and you end up in this sort of perpetual cycle of not really achieving your business objectives, not thinking about how you can drive your business forward. but with proper analysis, You can understand your audience because as a business grows, you know, you might've known your audience. when you first started, when there were three or four of you in an office and five or six customers, it's very easy, but as your business grows and your audience changes, touch points you have with your audience changes, you need to be in touch with that. You want to understand your competitors better and that competitor landscape changing. And there are so many different touch points that can't necessarily be done, um, in the ways that you've been doing it as a small agile business. And if you want your business to grow, you need to think more strategically than just counting or doing stuff

Jim James:

Now Jack let's just think about what we measure because in the old days, when I met Jim McNamara, there were really only the print publications and we outsourced measurement really to save us, hiring people. Just tell us how the landscape has changed because now it's social and it's owned channels and it's out of control, but it's also 24 7. Isn't it? How Carma help people to understand what's going on around them?

Jack Richards:

Yeah, it's interesting. You say that. Nobody gets into PR to do measurement people get into PR to do the fun stuff. Right. but as you say, monitoring measurement has changed once upon a time. And I'm very pleased to say I'm too young to remember this time, but, but once upon a time, you would have had, of clippings, essentially from newspapers and magazines land on your desk. And you can say hello, Mr. Mrs. Clients, this is what we've achieved for you this month. and you would have colon inches and that would demonstrate the value of your work. it demonstrate the value of your work is counting stuff demonstrates again, if it's the wrong audience or if the messages are wrong or if the messages aren't resonating, or if the coverage you're generating is actually in terms of sentiment, very negative. So we've moved on in terms of how we measure things in the metrics we look at. Also, as you said, we've moved on in terms of. the channels, you know, there's media, we then have new media, which has now become the social media. we've got our paid channels, our earned channels, our own channels. so it's about moving beyond just measuring the stuff that gets printed in newspapers, because as we know that's actually not, although it's still the majority of media is still traditional media. There's lots more going on. And we also need to think about how, media, how PR and comms links in with the rest of our communications strategy and those other touch points as well.

Jim James:

So Jack, can you give us an example of how so media monitoring across all those different platforms can help a business owner to make better decisions because ultimately people pay money to get noticed, or they do it themselves. How does monitoring what the market is saying about what that content is, help them to make future decisions.

Jack Richards:

Sure. You know, as I've been saying once upon a time monitoring was about counting stuff and that was great. But now now we are at point where we can really dig in with proper analysis, with expert analysis from real people, not just automation, that's talking about likes and subscribers and shares and whatever else we can dig into different metrics. And what those metrics do is to allow you to understand. How your content is performing? Right. So it's not just about how much we're doing, but the value of what we're doing. And I think particularly for, a lot of the people that will be listening today. We don't have the time to be doing the stuff that doesn't matter. you know, you don't have the money to be doing the stuff that doesn't generate results. So it's through integrating measurement at the start of the process in the planning process, but you can think about the success of your campaigns. You can reevaluate your campaigns and you can do the stuff that matters. Okay. I'm putting out this content. Is it getting to the right people? Are the messages landing, how are we comparing against other organizations? How are our spokespeople performing, which folks people do we need to be using more and less. and I think digging into that, saves the business a lot of effort and helps them deliver what matters. And I think that's really important.

Jim James:

So when you talk about the analysis, let's just look at that because a lot of platforms now really are all digital and especially AI powered ones. And you feel a little bit out of control with Carma. Jack. Just tell us the people side. The analysis that you're doing, what kind of analysis are you giving to clients? Yeah.

Jack Richards:

Sure. I mean, you know, increasingly we are sort of seeing these tech stacks. I think that's great. But what we believe at Carma is that tech is that sort of foundational building block. And that really, if you want to be doing analysis of your content of your campaigns, You need sociopolitical understanding, you need cultural understanding. You need context, you need empathy, you need all of those things. And that's why we've got analysts on the ground. and our analysts will derive insights from those metrics so the metrics. tell you so much the measurements, but actually what we want to go from is the outputs, the content you're putting out to the outtakes. What do people then think or feel as a result of that? Which of those metrics to the outcomes, thinking in a more integrated way about what people now do because of the, the activity that you as a comms PR or a marketing person has done. So our experts around the world. All of our ads have got, at least 10 years experience because it's about not being a sales person. It's about being a consultant and we try and understand that broader environment and apply those insights to the broader business to help you make organizational decisions, I guess.

Jim James:

Okay. So you've got real people making real research and presumably, are they making then recommendations Jack, in terms of, are we talking about engagement levels, for example, or where content that's out there has led to people. Either going to the website and entering the top of the funnel, for example, or even turning away from the company. if they are not happy with what they've read.

Jack Richards:

Well, many of our staff have worked in PR roles before getting into the wonderful world of media intelligence. We are not PR people, and we're not there to tell you how to do your job. Um, like I was saying before people, get into PR to PR not to do measurement, but what we try to do is to provide you with the insights to make better decisions. So we can show you how your campaigns, if you're thinking integrated as you said, a sort of top of the funnel, okay. how is our recent PR campaign? Influencing website, traffic. And once they get to the website, where are they going from there? And, you know, once upon a time, as I was saying, we'd be talking about content going out into the world. And it's done if we think about the entire end to end process from putting a piece of content out to how that affects share price with we're looking across the whole spectrum of producing reports, for our clients across, you know, governments, automotive brands, banks that will help them make those decisions. But having that micro focus at every single point along the process,

Jim James:

You've raised a really good point, which is the impact of PR on sort of sales leads in web traffic. And for me, one of the beauties of digital is that now we can see where the traffic has come from. You know, 15, 20 years ago you'd have an article and you may see an uplift. If someone read about the company and then went online and search for the company, because the URL wouldn't be in the article. But now someone might read an article. It might be an Outbrain, for example, syndicated long form content, and they can go direct to the client's website. Can you give us any insights into what's working in your view in terms of content that's directly leading to engagement and to traffic, to sites?

Jack Richards:

Yeah. an area that's of interest to me more broadly, even outside of Carma this concept of digital PR and there's a broader argument of isn't all PR digital PR now. but we know that. As an absolutely sort of benefits that sort of digital linking has a huge impact on for instance, an increase in search rankings, I think in terms of the content, it's always going to depend on your organization, isn't it. But we know that particularly. When you're getting to that middle of the funnel stuff, you know, the prospects are aware of you, they've seen your blog, they've seen your social media updates seen all your infographics, all that sort of stuff. The content that really moves them down to the bottom of the funnel are those educational resources, those things that help them, um, understand and add value more broadly. and That's certainly something that I've seen in the industry

Jim James:

that's very interesting because one of the comments actually in the book that I've just written is about how people want to be educated. Now, not sold to a guy called Brian Clark, who wrote Copyblogger. Really changing the nature of what we produce as PR people to be less promotional and more informative. So, Jack, how do you then help the clients to take what they're doing and start to, if you like instruct their team to make content that is going to be more, more impactful.

Jack Richards:

Well, I think this is where it's important to think about measurement in the planning process, um, and incorporating a measurement framework, AMEC the association for the measurement and evaluation communications have got some great resources on that. But by integrating measurement at the start of the process, you've got your objectives in mind. And I think tying back what you're doing every step backs, your objectives really keeps you on track. And actually ties in, again, it comes back to doing what matters if you're a one man band, a five man band, a 10 man band, um, you need to be doing what matters. So through deriving insights that demonstrate the value or the lack of value in what you're doing through having an integrated framework that looks at your activity at every step of the process from, Tactics through to objectives and everything else in between, you can keep tying it back and keep thinking about what you need to do better. What's working and what's not.

Jim James:

Jack, one thing we did talk about was the sort of post COVID, audience and how in our research, you know, health care and, you know, protection of wellbeing has now supplanted, almost every other sort of aspect, key message for clients. Any observations about if you like the new audience trends that you're seeing at Carma?

Jack Richards:

Yeah. Well, I think it's fair to say that there aren't any everything's changed. We're in this weird. Post COVID world, where everything you thought you knew about your audience in or even February, 2020 has changed where they consume their media has changed. days they go to work cause changed, their objectives have changed the way their business operates has changed. And that's why I think it's actually really important to keep up to date with your research. Be it market research, focus groups, be it, doing proper, evaluation of your campaigns, because I just don't think there are, you know, there is any particular trend. I think everything has changed. And I think that is the point I would take from any of this conversation. Today is whatever you do, if you're not doing any measurement, if measurement is running through your veins, make sure that you know, your audience by touching base with them, and making sure you're properly researching.

Jim James:

So otherwise you're flying blind really? Aren't you as a business owner, if you're creating content without a plan to measure the performance of that content, then you could well be wasting a fair amount of time.

Jack Richards:

Yeah. You will speak to people. I speak to people all the time. where I'll say, you know, you've got to know your audience and they say, "well, I know my audience because my audience is, you know, Dave, who I've been working with for the last 20 years, or, you know, the CEO of the, uh, the office opposite." I think everything has changed. And like you say, you're flying absolutely blind. And it can not only be a waste of time and money, but it can actually. you do a disservice, it can be detrimental to your business if you're putting out the wrong messages, and in the wrong places.

Jim James:

Jack, let's just talk about money. If we can. Research media monitoring outside the budget parameters of your average SME, because historically people thought that was really the preserve of the MNC with a big corporate department, which is a shame because actually small companies needed just as much as big companies, if not more.

Jack Richards:

It doesn't need to be. and actually funny, you should say that in the last few weeks, CARMA launched, a service for SMEs, because more. and more. We're seeing automation and automation is fantastic, but what that misses is that client service that consultancy that you need set up a measurement framework. I also think it's costly not to do measurements. I think that's another way of looking at things. If we keep talking about. You know, the detriment of not knowing your audience, if you're a PR agency and you're missing clips and you're not able to prove your value, all of those sorts of things, or if you're running something, uh, and trying to boil the ocean, trying to monitor everything, you're not able to cut through the noise so there there are two angles. There its expensive. Not to do monitoring and not to do it properly. but it also doesn't need to be expensive if you can find the right partner to work with you, and create a service, that's not just out of the box. but that matches what you're trying to achieve for yourself. In-house or if you're an agency, if your clients.

Jim James:

So Jack in reality, what does that mean? Are we talking hundreds or thousands of pounds a month? Can you just give some clarity to people on the show? I like to give the listeners, you know, a tool, but also a budget, because otherwise there is no point in even talking about these things.

Jack Richards:

Sure. I think, depending on your measurement maturity measurement can go from a few hundred dollars a month to, you know, tens of thousands of dollars a month. And I think what the perception is it's all tens of thousands of dollars a month and it doesn't need to be that way. So I, you know, I think it's very fair to say that, you can, if you can be affording to spend a few hundred dollars on Facebook ads every month, you can afford to be monitoring them as well.

Jim James:

That is great. And Jack Richard's of Carma. If you want to find out more about common in a way to become calmer about their activities, how can they find you?

Jack Richards:

Very good. I might take that one away with me. you can reach out in all of the usual places we are at carma.com. same again on twitter at Carma on LinkedIn. Um, my name's Jack Richards. I'm a J R underscore marker onTwitter. very happy to help you.

Jim James:

Jack Richards is sharing with us an area of. Kind of marketing that most business owners, I think kind of put off a bit, like a bit like my accounts. I tend to do them, you know, reluctantly, cause it's not the glamorous and the fun part of creating something. But of course it's ultimately the acid test of how well we've done. So Jack, thanks so much for sharing with us today about the need for monitoring and that it's accessible, I think is really a great message to bring home for everybody.

Jack Richards:

Absolutely. That's it. I think wherever you are on your journey to communications, to PR, to measurement and monitoring has go to be involved at some point along the way,

Jim James:

thank you so much for listening to this episode of the UnNoticed Show you've heard from Jack Richards here to me JimJames. Thank you very much for listening.