Tracy McCubbin - living clutter-free for happier, healthier aging

Tracy McCubbin helps others declutter for a living. As we get older, many people find it hard to let go of stuff they've accumulated over the decades. But letting go is often a transformational experience. Tracy, through her Los Angeles-based company, dClutterfly, helps retirees prioritize essential items for the next phase in their lives, and advises the elderly on parting ways with items that simply no longer add value to their days. In her upcoming book, The Clutter Code, Tracy describes the emotional blocks that prevent people from decluttering their lives, and how to overcome these obstacles. She also discusses the practicalities of clearing our homes of mementoes, furniture, bric-a-brac, books and photos. In this LLAMA podcast interview with Peter Bowes, Tracy explains the importance of simplifying our lives and why there is a correlation between healthy aging and living in a clutter-free world.

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Transcript

Tracy McCubbin 0:28

I had a woman say to me recently, she was about in her eighties and she said, I need help with this. I have three sets of China. I have three sons and none of their wives want any of the China. How do I make them take it? And I was like, well, you know, they have to take it. I'm like, they don't.

Peter Bowes 0:49

Hello and welcome to Live Long and Master Aging podcast. We call it LLAMA. I'm Peter Bowes. This is where we explore the science and stories behind human longevity. Now, a recurring theme on this podcast is simplicity. Leading an uncomplicated life to optimize our chances of getting to a ripe old age, and one of the challenges that I think we all face sooner or later is how to unravel the pluses of modern life, the cluster, a family life or a successful career, and especially when that day comes. That downsizing is really important to us. That it is perhaps the only option. Perhaps we've lost a life partner or the children have finally left home and there isn't really any need to have that five bedroom home full of stuff that frankly no one will ever look out or even think about. Again, de cluttering our lives physically and mentally as we get older, has been shown to have a huge benefit to all of us and who knows, perhaps it could help us live longer and healthier. My guest is Tracy McCubbin. Tracy is a decluttering expert and the author of the forthcoming book, the Clutter Code. Tracy, it's great to see you.

Tracy McCubbin 2:02

Nice to see you. Thank you for having me.

Peter Bowes 2:04

Yeah. Welcome to the live long and master aging podcast. Let's start with a definition. What is clutter?

Tracy McCubbin 2:10

So clutter. I like to call it clutters, the stuff that gets in the way of what you want to really be doing. So if you want to have dinner on your dining room table, but it's too covered with mail and something you need to return. If you'd like to park your car in the garage, but you can't fit it in there because there's too much stuff or you'd like to get ready with ease in the morning, but the closet is so overflowed and stuffed to the gills with stuff that you can't do that. That's what clutter is. Yeah.

Speaker 2 2:38

And is it also as I kind of indicated that the stuff that might be in the back of a cupboard, we maybe don't see it everyday, but we know it's there and frankly we know we don't need it and probably won't care if anyone looks at it again.

Speaker 1 2:51

Yeah, exactly. And it's, you know, it's cumulative and in and when you talk about sort of living a life and you know, being at a further down the road and having an accumulation of it is the stuff that's built up behind it. I recently went to Louisville to help a family who's the matriarch of the family had passed and they weren't going through all this stuff. And you know, her husband had died very early and so she spent a significant portion of her life as a single widow. And you know, had a housekeeper and a staff and lived in this big giant house and everyone kept saying, oh, well she kept us these papers, she kept these notes, she kept these things because they were so important to her. And I said, well, no, actually she probably kept them because she didn't have to get rid of them, you know, there was no one else living in the house with her and she had a housekeeper that would tidy them up and shove them in a drawer. So no one, nothing was forcing her to get rid of it and it, that was the importance that it held or didn't hold.

Speaker 2 3:50

We're going to talk about all those issues I mentioned, especially when it comes to crunch decision time and really how to get over that. And then to take action. Just first of all though, interested in how you actually got into this in the first place. How did you develop this expertise?

Speaker 1 4:05

It's a funny roundabout story in a way, you know, that sort of all roads lead you somewhere. Um, I had spent a lot of years as a personal assistant and before that I had done bookkeeping work and helped run small businesses and because I had been an assistant and I did secretarial work and uh, I just, I sort of had a lot of problem solving skills and people would, you know, friends of the people I was assisting would say I got this weird project and I'm stuck and I need some help and I don't know who to turn to. And I started doing side jobs where I would literally help people manage and Wade through their staff if it was paperwork from a failed business or cleaning out at, you know, a home of someone who passed away. And then it just started to snowball and all of a sudden I was getting more and more calls and a friend of mine was like, I think this is a business. And I was like, I just the thing I do. And I came up with a name and hung a sign out so to speak. And it's been 11 years and 1400 jobs later. And it's, you know, it's been great. And another piece of the puzzle is I am the child of a hoarder. My father is an extreme hoarder. You've seen this first. Yeah. And I also come from, um, I, I'm a third on half of my family, a third generation Californian and my grandmother, that generation was immigrants from Scotland who lived through two wars, three, three wars, World War One, world war, two, Korea, a lot of words to say the least. So I also saw and were depression era kids. So I also saw a historical relationship to stuff because of the depression because of rationing during the war because of, um, being immigrants, you know, also then being farmer. So I, I, I've seen how a lot of cultural things can come into play.

Speaker 2 5:54

So do you think as we've moved on and times have changed and perhaps we don't instinctively feel like we need to say things and to hold things. Is it therefore easier now if you have the right mindset? Not to be a hoarder and to be, have a simpler life? You

Speaker 1 6:10

know, it's interesting. It's easy, it's easier in some ways, but it's also much more difficult. It's easier in the way that things don't have the importance that you're like, well, if this breaks I have to fix it because it's the only one I have, but it's become harder because we accumulate so much faster with the, you know, with this, you know, crazy consumption of cheap consumer goods, you know, in the same way that the food industry changed with the advent of prepared and packaged food obesity went on the rise. I see a direct correlation between the, the advent of cheap consumer goods and homes being stuffed. I mean I ordered a hard drive for my computer the other day at 11 in the morning and it was to me by four and I didn't leave my house. Did you need it? I did need it. I needed a good example of it working to our advantage. Exactly. But it is so much easier to accumulate, which is really interesting.

Speaker 2 7:05

Which generation do you think most needs your services? Do you have you seen since the years you've been doing this, that a certain generation will gravitate towards needing help? Or is it across the board?

Speaker 1 7:17

It's really across the board. You know, it's really interesting, I mean I would say my business is probably split into thirds, you know, a third is 60 and over who are looking to downsize or looking to stay in their homes and be able to be safe and comfortable in their homes. Then I do have definitely a third of kind of young families starting out their life and trying to manage the onslaught of stuff. Um, and then I do have a lot of millennials. I have a lot of millennials who have never. I'm kind of learned how to organize a and then are also dealing with their parents and their grandparents. So it really is, it affects all of us.

Speaker 2 7:54

So talking about. And I started by saying that there's gonna come a point I think for all of us if it hasn't already lack sort of crunch point. When you dawns on you, there's a realization that you have so much clutter whether it's seen or unseen, that you really have to do something about it. And it could be that you're downsizing. Perhaps you've lost a partner or you just realize you don't need the rooms in your house anymore. Where do you start?

Speaker 1 8:20

That's such a great question. And oftentimes, uh, you know, I'm definitely called in when the crunch time is, you know, you know, Grandpa Ellis fell and we've got to move him into a home and we've got to sell the house to get him in there. But also what I'm seeing more and more of people sort of in their late fifties, early sixties that are like, you know, in the next 10 years I want to move to a condo are I want it, but I don't know how to get from here to there. So, you know, one of the things, one of the first things that I tell people if at all possible, and this tends to be in a perfect world, but you know, the sooner you kind of know what's coming next for you. Like, okay, I know I want to move to Seattle to be closer to my kids and grandkids and that means I'm going to get a 1200 square foot apartment. If you can kind of create a vision of where you're going, that's going to make the process easier because if you, it's always difficult when people are like, I'm not sure what I'm gonna do, I might need this, I might not need this. But if you have a plan and a path, it makes it much easier to fall for. The vast

Speaker 2 9:23

majority of us aren't. Path is fairly clear from mid life that you will eventually one day downside. Perhaps you will have fewer people around you and that you might need to contemplate a fairly, not necessarily without friends, but a relatively solitary existence in your own home and that you will need to make things easier.

Speaker 1 9:44

Definitely. And also this idea of, you know, um, I really, I think it's incredibly honorable and kind and people feel really good about it of sort of dealing with their own mess, so to speak. You know, it's, it's, I've just get phone calls all the time where people are like, I just don't want to leave this for my kids. I don't wanna leave this for my grandkids, you know? So to make those decisions that you know, this isn't important or this is important to really be proactive and you know, it's interesting, they say a lot that the people that are the people that are the happiest when they move to retirement communities or senior living communities are the ones who were very, very involved in the decision. Right? That this is what I want to do. I want to go live in Jimmy Buffet land in Delray, Florida. I'm saving this is the plan that they embrace that next chapter as opposed to the ones who were sort of forced there. And I see that with people's downsizing and decluttering the ones that are like, this is what I want to do. I want to move to an apartment this size. So I want to make this decision for myself.

Speaker 2 10:46

So another reason to predict what is going to happen so that you can be involved and as you say, you're not leaving it to the next generation, to your children. What sort of problems does that create in terms of the decision making when it is left to someone else and a close member of the family?

Speaker 1 11:01

Oh, it's just a can of worms. It's a whole Magilla as I like to say, you know, there's this whole thought of what is important to me may not be important to the generation below it. And you know, I mean, it's just this interesting thing for instance, that we're seeing with furniture right now. You know, the old antique styles of furniture. Nobody wants them anymore. I mean mid century is about the only collectible things, you know, furniture was built in a way that we don't use it anymore. It's big, it's heavy. It's, you know. So what's happening is that people are realizing that their furniture, first of all, let me say this, furniture is the diminishing asset. It is not an investment. You buy it to use it and love it so you are not going to make your money back. So what happens is people are looking to downsize and they're like, but this chest, this chest of drawers has been on our family for 50 years. And the kids are like, okay, well I got five of them, like my houses fall. Maybe the kids are saying, yeah, I never really liked it. Exactly. Exactly. You know, I had a woman say to me recently, she was about in her eighties and she said she was speaking to a group of women. She raised her hand and she said, I need help with this. I have three sets of China and I only had three sons and none of their wives want any of the China. How do I make them take it? And I was like, well, you know, they have to take it. I was like, they don't, you know, and I. and one of the things that I tell people in this process is you have to respect what people want and don't want. And then I also tell the kids, sometimes you have to take stuff you don't want, put it in the trunk of your car and get rid of it later. Yes. Sometimes no, so it is really about respecting and also the really neat thing about doing this process, not at crunch time, you know, not when you're panicked, but then you can, you can, you know say, Hey, here's the history of this piece. You know, you've always said you wanted it. If you don't want it, son, cousin Irma wants it. That you can really, you know, kind of spread this stuff around and also really talk about the family history

Speaker 2 13:07

one way. I think that a modern way of life and certainly the technology that we have at our disposal can help is with those things and I've certainly found this which can be copied digitally. You still have them, but the, the bricks and mortar is it where you can't actually discard and I've always. The obvious one is photographs. Were there other things as well? You can just take a copy of it, whether it's a little id card you want hard and you treasured for a time when you used it everyday and you want to remember the positive side of having that little bit of property, but a digital copy for me at least will do the job.

Speaker 1 13:41

It's so interesting. I had a client who came across her journals that she took from sort of end of high school to her thirties and she was reading through them and she was like, I'm so boring and full of myself, but what was important to her was dates and like, oh I went to Morocco this year and I stayed here and so she took her journals. I went through them and then on a digital calendar just dated and that's what she wanted to know the timeline and I thought that was such a great use of technology and memories actually. Sounds like a fun project. Yeah, it was really cool and charted and I'm sure I bet you could do something. I was thinking, but you could do something on evernote or something where you could include photos and really make it a a cool project.

Speaker 2 14:22

Yeah. I think actually I believe there's a, an evernote APP is essentially here's a calendar. You can do that fill. It's interesting, isn't it? You look back on your life and then you find documentation to kind of back up your memories or you can sit there alongside photographs from the same time, but how often you, you'd forgotten which year it was that you went to Morocco or New Zealand or the trip of a lifetime. Often you can misjudge it by five or 10 years and it is actually quite nice just as a mental device to, to go through that and, and to be able to digitally remember it but not keep all the clutter associated. Yeah,

Speaker 1 14:57

I think that it's, um, I think the thing, the thing about staff is, you know, besides the fact that it's a tool, it's a chair. We sit on a table, we eat at. It's, it sparks memories, right? It's a, it's a talisman or it says something that sparks a memory and that's what we really want, right? We want to know the touchstones of our life. Good memories. Keep the brain active. Our memories aren't so good, so that's the great thing about having a photograph of it is that you can remember it. I might be one of my best friends in the world. We met our junior year abroad in Italy and she was moving out of her house in San Francisco, so I went up to help her pack and she had this giant lateral file cabinet and I was like, what is in here? You're like, we gotta get this down, but she found in it her travel journal and she found the entry of the day. We met like literally September, Blah Blah on our way to fort army. Met this cool girl from California and we both took a picture of it and what a great like you said, like now we know exactly the day we met. It takes us right back there and that's where technology is so fantastic. You can underestimate the value of being able to recall those great times in your life. No recall it in a more efficient way. Yeah. And then, and also too, I think, um, what did somebody say to me recently in, in middle age that the days are long and the years are short and for me, I don't have kids so I don't have the marker of watching children grow up in my own life, but to have a like an anniversary date with my best friend and to say, Oh, well we met 32 years ago. We met 33 years ago and it gives. For me, it gives our friendships such a depth that, that to know how long it's existed. And that for me is that is the importance of stuff. Right. That's the importance of remembering it. I've, I said introducing you was that the does seem to be some evidence that living a lifestyle come actually be scientifically proven to be beneficial to us in terms of our longevity completely. I worked with lot. I get a phone call all the time for them. People like early stages of Alzheimer's are starting to have some neurological, um, and every one of them doctors have said, neurologists have said, declutter, declutter, declutter. If it's Parkinson's, declutter. Make your life as simple as possible because then you focus your brain on the important thing. So get rid of all the extraneous stuff, put your keys in the same place like, and I've seen it help people stay in their homes longer. Let's just dive into that a little bit more because I think this is the real useful, fascinating. Eric, you talk about keeping your keys in the, in the same place. It is such a no brainer, isn't it? But it's so simple. Yet so many people don't do it. I know it's crazy. Yeah, I mean what I always say, your, your key should be in your purse or your bag or on the front entry hallway and you know, the, the brain is limited and as it gets older you, you know, your capacities get a bit diminished. So just take all that stuff off the off the table. I always wondered, like I remember my grandmother lived to be 101 and she kind of for the last five years of her life, eight the same three meals and I think when I look back now, I think, oh, those were just decisions she didn't want to make anymore. You know, she'd eaten all the food in the world, so she was fine with a piece of toast and a poached day. Okay.

Speaker 2 18:30

It's a little bit like some people I know who actually wear the same clothes, the same physical clothes everyday, but they look the same. They'll buy six black shirts or blue shirts, six pairs of blue jeans. They always look the same. They're well presented, but it takes the decision making

Speaker 1 18:46

well have you, and this fits into exactly what we're talking about and I don't know if you've read about the cell, but there's something called decision fatigue where they've done all these studies where the more the part of the brain that makes in some doctor's gonna write me an scathing email because I'm going to get this wrong, but basically over simplified the part of the brain that makes decisions, gets tired fast and then it reverts to making bad decisions. So it's why you wake up in the morning and you're like, today will be a steamed broccoli grilled chicken day and then by the at 11:00 at night you're eating beverage and he beats so you know, taking decisions off your plate, wearing the same clothes. But that's clutter is decision me.

Speaker 2 19:25

Well, I think there's some good evidence. Some the highest achievers and you look at the silicon valley, the big CEO names who will often brag about the fact that I'm not mentioning any of the individuals, but they're well known for wearing the same t shirt.

Speaker 1 19:39

I mean, Obama, you know, when he was president, he was wore, I wore black, gray and white and he said he did not make that decision and he said every bite of food that went in my mouth, my wife chose for me because he was like, I just don't have the bandwidth. So you know, in terms of kind of aging and longevity and staying like, just take those, take those decisions off your plate. And the thing about clutter is, you know, I always say that clutter is a constant to do list. You know, you walk in and you see that pile of mail on your kitchen counter and you're kind of throat tightens up and you're like, I have to deal with that. I've got to make a decision about where this lives. So even if you're talking about the current state of things, but then you look at a garage or a storage unit or a closet with stuff you haven't seen, you know, in the back of your head, it's there. Yeah.

Speaker 2 20:29

And how you also know how good you feel once you've dealt with it and to stock pile of mail that those bills to pay the accounts or whatever it happens to be. Once it disappears. And I'm personally, I'm very much in favor of the, of the clean desk approach. Some people argue that they can't be creative and less the desk is stocked high of stuff.

Speaker 1 20:48

I have, I, this is, you know, in no way scientific. But you know, I hear from people I know where everything on my desk is and I'm like okay, then find it, find x thing and you know, it takes them an hour. But they're like, see, I knew where it was. It was like, well you just dug through piles. That's not knowing where something is. So I think that just kind of taking that stuff off and you know, it's interesting they say your thirties or you know, your 30 zero, your accumulation years. And for me, my clients in my forties, they start to see it, especially as the kids get older. But really once the kids are older, once they hit their fifties, they just. I just don't need stuff in the same way, and I was reading, I was reading something about debt, personal financial debt, and they've just kind of the effects of it. And, and I see a lot of times my clients who are very cluttered carry a lot of personal debt because they're buying things that they can't afford. And um, but one of the things that they say that this study was saying is that people very, very, almost never regret experiences, never regret spending money on experiences, but almost always they're regret in spending is on staff.

Speaker 2 21:59

How interesting. You know. So we've talked about the value of perhaps having way fewer clothes than you would think, or you might have already. I think the key, especially certain people are actually making that decision as to which close to get rid of and to fine tune that water is one of the most difficult.

Speaker 1 22:17

I know, but it isn't. You wear 20 percent of your clothes 80 percent of the time. I mean the, the, you know, if you're a person who needs proof, what I tell people is turn everything on your hangers backwards so that you know, you're at your club. I'm acting it out and realizing no one can see, but you know, every, your buttons face one way. Turn everything backwards and then when you actually were something, put it in the closet the correct way. Go for a month and see how much of your stuff you really were.

Speaker 2 22:43

Yeah, that's, that's the equivalent for me of putting the shirts at the end of the day repeatedly worth three or four times a week and then it's the same shirts the next week and the next week and then you realize it's all because there's clumped up at the end. The ones who don't touch

Speaker 1 22:57

right. And it's so. And it just makes kind of getting it just, I think so much information is coming at us and so much stuff is going on that all of those things that you can simplify our. Just make everything a lot easier.

Speaker 2 23:11

I'll see you gone on this journey and learned a lot about this. How have you, I know you initially developed your own personal interest in this, but how have you learned things from your clients that you now apply to yourself?

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(Cont.) Tracy McCubbin - living clutter-free for happier, healthier aging

Speaker 1 23:23

I have, you know, I have learned a lot of things. I've actually, um, I mean I'm, I'm a very social person anyways, but uh, I have learned the value of keeping up friendships and keeping up personal relationships and especially as you look to aging. And again, I said, you know, I don't have kids, so I speak often at the gay and lesbian senior center. And when the first time I spoke there I thought the conversation was going to really be about all these people who were seniors now who didn't have children and we're very afraid of dying alone. But what was interesting is they had created communities. They had created communities within themselves. They had nieces and nephews, they had mentored people. They that the, that wasn't the significant thing for them. The significant thing for this community was they had all this history about the life they lived and they needed it to go somewhere, you know, that they, you know, for 70 years had been in the closet and had been communicating with secret newsletters and that was what was important to them, which I thought was fascinating. So one of the big things for me is really those relationships are important

Speaker 2 26:11

and you raise another issue there of people sometimes talk about decluttering the social circles, the hubs that we sometimes have too many in inverted commas, friends that we can actually deal with and that we should perhaps surround ourselves with a tighter but closest circle.

Speaker 1 26:29

I think so. And I and I, and I see the people who I see my older clients who do, who that, who have. I have a client who still, her daughters are, she's a grandmother now, so her daughters in their late thirties and she's still friends with the same 10 women that were in the moms group when they're first daughters were born and this is, you know, 40 years of friendship and they still see each other once a month and you know, their husbands are starting to pass away and that the history does matter. And that's the interesting thing for me because I show up and people I would say you're going to make me throw everything away and just get rid of it and none of it matters. And that's a bit of my issue with the minimalist movement that there is. There is no respect for history. There is no respect for what came before it. Just get rid of it all. So I think that, um, I think that you have to take, that's why we want the staff, right? We want the memories and we want the feelings and we want all of that. And you have to take that history into account. But I think that people are really realizing that it's the friendship,

Speaker 2 27:32

I suppose social media, facebook in particular has brought a whole new dialogue to this defriending people that he no longer wants to associate with. It's a difficult problem. It's a difficult issue for some people to disassociate themselves with other people who they've had a relationship, but perhaps they are to use this phrase, toxic friends, but they're actually not doing huge amount of good for you, for your psyche.

Speaker 1 27:58

Yeah, I think definitely. I mean I think you have to look at, you know, and one of the, I see this with clients a lot too, especially my clients who have shopping problems and spending problems is they, when they declutter and when they really take stock of how much money they've spent and technically wasted, you know, closed they've never worn. They tend to do a little bit of an inventory and see the people that support that kind of lifestyle that are the ones that will go shopping with them or the ones that you know, support the overspending. And I think that's. I think that's a way to declutter.

Speaker 2 28:30

Yeah. And what did they say you are the average of the five people you associate yourself with? Most. At least I've heard that said that. Oh, that's interesting about it. And some of the. So as soon as the, the moral of that story is surround yourself with good people who you admire and perhaps would like to take the qualities of, of some unburied some of the best. Oh, I love that. I love that. That's fantastic. When I heard that, it just made me think it. Of course you immediately think of who you are. Then my friends are great. So. So you're writing the book now? Correct. And it's out at the beginning of next year.

Speaker 1 29:08

Nineteen. Yeah. How's that going? It's good. It's really, um, it's been a very interesting process of taking what is so instinctual inside of me and, and I just do, um, and, and translating it to the page so that people get the feeling that they're working with me. It's about the seven. It's in my years of work, I've figured out that there are seven emotional blocks to letting go of our stuff. So it really delves into all of those and you know, for instance, I don't want to talk about all of them because I want to quickly run through the seven or the big one in terms of this is living in the past. That's a big block that people live in the past that they, you know, with, for instance, people are downsizing and they realize they're moving to a smaller home and they realize, oh, I'm not going to host Christmas again or I'm not going to host Passover again, you know, do I need all these entertaining dishes? And they take them with them without realizing that they're not. You know what? I used to always do that. I've always done that in the past, but it's not serving them in the future. And that's a really interesting process to watch people go through.

Speaker 2 30:15

And do you have in terms of your own aging process and your own longevity? This is a question I ask. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm not aging. I'm just kidding. Well, maybe you're the first. I know I shouldn't it, but as you age and we all look to the future, do you have aspirations to have a, a number in mind? Is that something that you think about and do you imagine what kind of life you'd be having 20 or 30 years time?

Speaker 1 30:39

It's very interesting. I don't have a number in mind, but I do two things. I do have, um, a real goal and physical health. Um, I've had some issues or body issues because of working so hard and so I'm working with someone and when he said to me, he said you need to take care of this stuff now or your sixties and seventies are going to be awful. So doing a lot of work about that so that I can stay physical as long as possible. And then because I again don't have children and the bulk of my, my closest circle of friends, most of us don't have children so we're all starting to have a conversation of like, Hey, do we look to Ventura? Do we live to North San Diego County? Do we look to buying some near each other or in a place together and we're really starting to have a serious conversation about that.

Speaker 2 31:31

So you're, you're looking to not only to the bricks and mortar of your home, but you will surround yourself with and perhaps even planning that with a group of people or just for people listening outside of. Well, outside of California,

Speaker 1 31:43

you're talking about cities on the edge of, of Los Angeles, obviously much cheaper you can buy if you want to, you can buy more for your money and there are little, just quieter, more genteel sort of places conversation to have with people. And I'm, I am pleasantly amazingly surprised at how many of our friends are starting to say like, we really need to think about this. You know, I don't. Los Angeles to me seems like a very difficult city to age in. So that's been, that's kind of my goal is all right, the next 15 years, where am I going to settle? Who's going to be around it? Um, and that's been really interesting and it's, I think it's fun. I think it's exciting. It's not something I dread. I'm like, oh, I could live in La Jolla. I mean, not low, but somewhere lovely and beautiful. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. But so to think about that and, and, and again, and to go back to your earlier question about what I learned from my clients, especially in the aging and downsizing is the more proactive and involved they are in that decision making for themselves. The easier it is, you know, that they're not sort of being ripped out of their home, but they're like, we plan for this and we're super excited to move to Tucson or something and that's been a really great thing to see. We should do another interview in 20 years time. We'll, hopefully you and I are sitting by a beach somewhere. How do we get in touch with you? How do we follow your work and social media? Absolutely. So I'm, I'm, I'm on facebook as Tracy mccubbin. I have actually a fantastic facebook group called concrete your clutter with Tracy mccubbin for people who have a little bit more of an issue. It's a private group and we kind of worked through some things. I have, I have a daily I've challenges, so we're coming up with a challenge starting June 11th, right email, a little decluttering tip every day in your inbox for 10 or 15 days, which is great. People are people love those and then I'm on twitter at Tracy underscore mccubbin and instagram if you love a before and after tracy underscore mcCubbin, but I'm pretty active on social media.

33:48

I will put all of those details into the show notes. Excellent. Tracy, it's really been good to talk to you. Thank you so much. Thank you. And you'll find those, the Llama podcast podcast.com. That's double l, a, m, a podcast.com. You can review, as you can rate as it apple podcasts. It's hugely helpful as we move the podcast forward. You can check us out on social media LLAMA podcast, at podcast on twitter, facebook, instagram.Many thanks for listening.