Stop "Doing" Program, Start Designing the Magic - Camp Programming, by Design #1

Find full show notes and links at: https://gocamp.pro/campprogrammingbydesign/design-magic

Welcome to a new show from the Go Camp Pro Podcast Network!

Welcome to the Go Camp Pro podcast family! We are thrilled to introduce a show that peels back the curtain on the "how" and "why" behind our favorite summer moments: Camp Programming, By Design. Join hosts Chris Rehs-Dupin and Ariella Skoczylas as they move beyond the logistics of schedules and supplies to explore the intentional architecture that turns a simple activity into a life-changing experience.

Why Purpose is Your Greatest Program Tool

Is your camp mission just a set of dusty words on a website, or is it the pulse of your daily activities? Chris and Ariella break down why the "magic" of camp isn't a happy accident, it's the result of intentional design. From rethinking what "fun" actually feels like to using your mission as a motivational anchor in the heat of July, this episode challenges you to look beneath the surface of your schedule to find the purpose that transforms lives.

Big Ideas

• The "Mushroom" Metric: Why your son pretending to be a fungus on a basketball court might actually be a masterclass in mission alignment.
• The Facebook Mission Trap: How over-generalized buzzwords are failing your organization and how to fix them with "camp-friendly" language.
• The Mid-July Motivation Anchor: The secret to using your mission as a psychological lifeline for burnt-out staff during the summer's hardest weeks.
• Redefining "Fun": Why success—not just entertainment—is the hidden engine behind every camper’s favorite memory.
• The "What, So What, Now What" Framework: A simple, three-step debriefing tool that ensures your lessons stick long after the buses leave.

Your Hosts

• Ariella Skoczylas, Educator and Trainer - Leadership Lioness
• Chris Rehs-Dupin, Founder and President - TQAMP LLC

Our free Resilient Camp Blueprint diagnostic is available at: https://camp.mba/travis

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Camp Programming by Design, where we discuss the power of intentionality in what we do.

SPEAKER_01 0:08

If we look closely, the magic of camp isn't usually an accident. It's architecture.

SPEAKER_00 0:14

I'm Ariella, my pronouns are she, her.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

And I'm Chris, and my pronouns are he, him.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

And we're about to dive deep and explore the impact of camp experiences and how we can infuse intentionality into every moment, from the high-energy activities to the downtime, the meal times, and everything in between.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

So what's our goal? It's to stop doing program and start designing for it. Because when we program for purpose, we build resilient communities that can change the world.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

Please take a moment to subscribe, share, and rate this podcast. And don't forget to check out our show notes at gocamp.pro slash camp programming by design. Let's get to work.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Let's do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Chris, can you start us off? Tell us a little bit about your relationship with camp and why programming design matters to you.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Yeah, absolutely. So I have loved camp ever since I was really, really super young. I remember being the kid who was packing and unpacking and repacking up until the time that it was time to go. But then I stopped going to camp as a kind of when I was in sixth grade because I was going to become a professional soccer player and didn't have time for it anymore. Spoiler alert, I'm not a professional soccer player. So I got to recome back to camp as kind of an adult, like when I was 19 years old, maybe kind of an adult. And I just remember feeling this presence, like just being able to be in a place. And I think I loved the way it felt before I knew why I felt that way, right? Like I'm still learning why, and I think we're gonna talk about it a lot, why camp is magic and magic by design. So eventually, I loved camp so much I stayed from that first summer for another 20 years in camping. And when I became a full-time camp director, what I realized was that feeling and that presence doesn't just happen. You know, it wasn't just a system that was gonna sustain itself. As the director, I was actually responsible for designing the conditions or supporting staff to design the conditions that allow other people to feel that presence. So throughout my time working at camp, I just feel like I had the opportunity to be really curious about where it came from, what levers could I pull that could make those conditions, and what parts were happening because we had been designing it, not what was again sustaining itself because it's the way it had always been. All right, so that's that's my my answer. Your turn. What is your relationship with Camp and why does program design matter to you?

SPEAKER_00 3:11

Okay, thanks, Chris. I have so many follow-up questions on everything you just said, but we'll wait. We'll wait. I can be patient. I'll I'll start off with a story of one of the day camps that I went to when I was young. I was probably maybe fourth or fifth grade. And at the end of the summer, our counselors gave us paper plate awards, and I got the friendship award. And I remember thinking to myself, this is so weird because I was always the one who was like had to be spoken to and like pulled aside and discussed, how do you think you made that girl feel when? So I thought it was kind of weird, but I also realized that the counselors knew what they were doing when they gave me that award. And they knew that it was that I guess because I had worked on the friendship aspect of camp that I deserved that. And I was, you know, like 10 years old. So I think it's it's cool that I'm giving my my younger self lots of credit for recognizing that. And then, and then the next camp that I went to was a faith-based overnight camp. And the what I remember most about being at that camp was not what we did, but more like being on the sidelines and hanging out with the people not doing the thing. I have lots of very good friends. Some of my best friends today are my friends that I met at that camp. I definitely have more memories sitting on the bleachers and not playing basketball and kind of like standing back and being like, what is everybody doing over there? It looks kind of fun and silly, but I don't know why we're supposed to be doing this. Now as an adult, I definitely understand it. And I see that there was a lot of really deep meaning in the activities that they wanted us to be doing. So I I guess I kind of took those two big camp experiences for me and put them together. And I wanted to be part of that. And when I became staff at camp, which I was staff, like we were CITs, and I just I went the whole way through. I was always more behind the scenes on the programming side. I felt much more comfortable doing the planning and the preparing and the setting up than being a counselor. And now I have four of my own children, and in my professional life, I want to be able to give that to as many people as I can. I think I'm much more appreciating the nuances of what we can add to the camp experiences, um, learning, learning more about it and also seeing how it happens with our campers and also with my own kids. It's funny. Yesterday, this literally happened yesterday. I like this happens all the time. But yesterday, my son, my 16-year-old, he was he works at a burger shop, the best burgers ever. And he was about to leave, so he he said, Okay, bye, I'm going. And I said, Okay, bye, have fun. And he slammed the door. And I was like, wait, I have I don't mean have fun. That's not what I meant. It's so much more than that. And I kind of like went to open the he was like long gone by then, but but I think we feel this. Not we. I feel this a lot. That it's not it, there's so much more going on. It's not about the one thing have have fun. There, there's so much more that that I could have said, there's so much meaning, there's so much more meaning that that could have been built. And I I want to be able to help as many camps as possible to do that, to to put infuse the meaning.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

I I love that. And I also have so many questions. And I don't I do want to say you are a good friend. I know we've just like met each other and we're we're doing this podcast together, but that's really rad that your counselors saw that in you and they saw that it wasn't about just naturally being a good friend. It was about trying to be a good friend, which I think can be really, really important because there are kids who are naturally good at things, one thing or another. But to recognize the child that is trying, I think can matter so much more than some when some like when somebody's naturally good at soccer. But, anyways, back to back to fun. Let's talk about fun for a second because that does feel like such a natural send-off. And when you ask kids why do they love to go to camp? Well, because it's fun. But like what's underneath that, right? Like, fun is something that happens, and I think it is an essential component that gives us kind of the the things we need to reach towards purpose, right? And so when we think about fun, like what do you what do you think? When you say have fun, like what do you think is everything that's underneath that question?

SPEAKER_00 8:24

Yeah, so I think one way of of looking at it that that we looked at I don't remember who it was, but it was the name will come to me. It gave us this idea to think about what fun feels like as a camper. And as a camper, what we discussed, this was a couple years ago, that when kids feel successful is that feeling that they call fun. So, I mean, we can talk about my son at at his little job, but but our campers, like if they're working on a skill, you spoke about soccer. So when you're when you score a goal, you say that was fun, or when someone passes the ball to you and you're like excited, oh I got the ball, that feels like fun. So when you're when you're for our campers, when we're and adults also, when when we're successful at something, that's one way of calling it fun. And then another way, well, there's a lot of things, there's a lot of things to look at fun, but but I think what we're the part of it that we want to focus on is the like what does the camp want the kid to feel? What do we as the people planning everything, how do we want, what are the times that we want our campers to feel fun? And and is it always? Is it every moment, every second of every day? And and there's so many aspects of it that we can bring forward. What are the important ones to us? Why are our kids at camp? I guess, I guess we can ask another question. Why are we doing what we're doing? Uh why are we doing what we're doing at camp? We can also ask, what are why are parents sending their kids to camp? It could be because uh the parents want the kids to have fun. It could be because totally different reason they want their kids to make new friends or to learn a new skill, learn how to play soccer, get exercise. So there's there's so many, there's so many different aspects of it that we can that we can look at. Maybe we should start with why are we doing what we're doing? I think as planners, as camp directors, as the people behind the scenes, the program directors, what what is our what is our goal? What is what is we'll start with our goal because the parents can choose a camp based on what they want, but what is our little tiny, what do we want to happen this summer?

SPEAKER_01 11:13

Yeah, I I want to riff a little bit on this connection between fun and purpose because I think really talking about design, and this is kind of what I was thinking about. Take, for example, a sport. I have to, I have to say again, I shared that I wanted to be a professional soccer player. Sports was my whole life when I was growing up. I had two kids who could care less about watching sports, playing sports, and I think about my son's experience playing basketball. I really wanted him to play basketball, and it was so beyond obvious that it wasn't his thing. And so we had to readjust the purpose, right? The purpose was not going to be for him to become LeBron James, right? Every other kid wanted to be LeBron James, and I swear to you, one time Milo came off the basketball court and said, I wasn't playing basketball, I was pretending to be a mushroom. Nine LeBron James and one mushroom, right? So we had to switch the purpose. The purpose was not for him to grow skills. Like, what could our purpose be? Was he good at basketball? It depends on what the purpose of the basketball was. If it was for him to grow, learn teamwork, learn sportsmanship. He actually was one of the best kids on the team because when another kid fell down, he would stop and he would help that kid up. He never took a shot. He never made a rebound, but he would help kids up. And to us, we were able to refocus on him having fun. I mean, he was like the kid who was like zipping around the court pretending to be an airplane, having the best time in this infrastructure of basketball. So I think when we think about that interface between fun and purpose, that's what we're talking about, right? So for camp directors, for us as camp designers, we have to have purpose because purpose is actually what leads us to creating the conditions for fun. Like fun is what happens when we are accomplishing our purpose, and we just want our purpose to be in alignment, especially when we're designing for staff.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

I I don't think it's very common for program directors, camp directors to ask themselves what's the purpose of this. I might be wrong, but in the camps that I've been to, it's not commonly asked what is what's the purpose of doing this or why are we doing this? Probably program directors do talk about purpose a little bit more. I would say camp directors talk more about the mission of the camp. And when we're designing programming, we like we there's there's so many, there's so many things that that we could like we could say, what's the purpose? And there could be so many purposes. It could be a logistical purpose, it could be a staffing purpose, it could be our order, our shipment didn't come in. So we're shifting gears. There's so many different little things that we could answer. The what is the purpose question? I think we can take it one step further and we can go to the like to the mission of the camp. And then anytime we need to tweak or adjust, or if there's new people working at the camp, maybe we could go back to the mission. What do you what do you think about that?

SPEAKER_01 14:51

Yeah, I I actually think the mission is like the capital P purpose, right? Like those two things feel really interchangeable to me. Like our mission is what we can get everybody in alignment over, which should be, right? Like us aligning to our mission accomplishes the purpose of our work. Now there's a hierarchy of purpose, right? You give the example of making sure the kitchen order is in on time. Well, we can't accomplish the capital P purpose if we're not feeding the kids, right? So there is purpose that is kind of like nestled within the big purpose. But when we talk about alignment, everything, everything should be lit leading to your mission. And I know when I've talked to camp folks, sometimes they don't know what the mission is, right? We I talk to a lot of camp professionals in my line of work, and I can't tell you the number of times I've been in a room where I've asked people, do you know your camp's mission? And half the room is like, no. And I'm like, well, how do you know then? What is your metric? How do you know you're accomplishing your purpose if you don't know what your purpose is? And I think that there's so much about getting folks in alignment as an act of motivation to do the really hard work of being camp staff. Camp staff need to know and agree with your purpose.

SPEAKER_00 16:19

Yeah, yeah. I I think I've what I've seen is that a lot of times the like official mission statement of an organization is often long and technical words and not really like campy words, like leadership skills. I I think this was Michael Branwein who said, who suggests look at your mission statement and make it like into camp-friendly words. So maybe that's what we we really need to do in order to, right? Let's like think like our focus is we want to make sure that everyone's on the same page. Everyone has the same purpose. Yes, we know it's camp. Last minute changes happen every hour of the day. But when whenever we need to shift gears or ask ourselves, why are we doing this? Let's make sure that we're hitting on one of our mission pieces. And we need to make sure that we know what that is. I I think you said that like everyone in camp, it almost it almost seems that nobody in camps know what the what the mission mission statement of the camp is. I I definitely can't tell you the exact mission statement of any camp that I've worked at, but I I definitely could sit for a few minutes and think about like at least three things that we want to make sure happens in every single piece of the day. So maybe that's what camps need to be doing is making it more camp friendly. Camp friendly type of mission. Put out there, make sure everyone knows it, and run with it.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

I I love that. This is one of my this is one of my favorite things. So I just pulled up a mission statement that I wanted to read to you and see if you could think about maybe where it comes from. So this is the mission statement. Give people the power to build community and bring the world closer together. That sounds like a great camp mission, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:24

It is it is Facebook's mission.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

That is the mission statement of Facebook, which I think, again, give people the power to build community and bring the world closer together. That's almost the opposite of what is actually happening with Facebook. And how often do we see, right, like this is the mission they're trying to accomplish by that metric? Facebook is failing.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

And when when it gets like overgeneralized like that, again, that could be a camp's mission statement. And I would hope they're delivering it differently than arguing with people's aunt and uncle in the comments section about any given post. So many places, and this is just bigger than camp, don't align with what their mission actually is. And I thought that's just a fun, tangible example. When you when you water down things to like use buzzwords, like how is that being operationalized?

SPEAKER_00 19:25

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

Yeah, bringing it back to camp. Like, how do you operationalize a mission statement?

SPEAKER_00 19:33

I I I think the how it even we're not, I I think I want to even go back to like the statement itself, because just that like what it's one sentence and it you can you could see how they do it. You could see how it how it is done. Forget about if it's successful or not, or or you know, winning or losing in in the way, you know, in in what actually happens, but just the fact that you can like picture, oh, okay, that's that's what we want to happen. And anyone who's who's working can like really understand, oh, okay, is what I'm doing right now in alignment with building community? Yes or no? So I think I think that's something that we can really ask ourselves because I mean, let we we even take building community as as an example. That was one of the things it said, right? So in our camps, right? So a lot of time, you know, sometimes when we're doing like a regular activity, building community is cheering for for each other, right? Making each other feel good. That's building community. But what about sitting in the dining room, right? During mealtimes, are we building community when we're sitting at mealtimes? So when we are doing like the regul, like the traditional campy activities like playing a sport or you know, putting on a uh performance, we know how to say, yes, this is building community or whatever, whatever type of thing that our camp is is trying to do. I think there's there's so many other things where we do, we are building community, or we are doing the thing that we want to be happening and we don't even realize it.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

Like at mealtimes. And on top of that, there's also times where we think or we're doing we're doing a regular camp activity, or or we like we could just push it a little a little further. Like some camps that I know of are playing sports, doing regular camp activities, and they don't even realize that they are checking off all these things that are on their list of mission and purpose. And when we when we bring that forward, when we when we know really clearly, what our mission is and what our purpose is, we can much more easily bring that forward to for our staff to be aware of. And then we can make it we can, we can also transfer to the kids that the kids are are being made aware of of what's what they're doing. There's so much right that deeper level.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

Yeah I I love that and I I think okay so let's let's use that line again to build the power of community right it's one of I think one of the most impactful staff training activities is to sit with your staff and go through your mission and say like what does this what is this going to mean for us? Because it shouldn't it it really should be simple as build community to bring the world closer together. That is an excellent mission statement good, bad or indifferent for who it's for so sitting with your staff and saying all right the our mission statement turn starts with give people the power okay what does that mean? What can that look like in a camp environment? That means when you are deciding what activities to do give some power back to your kids. Let them help sculpt it and we're going to give them the power to build community how do we do that? What does that look like at soccer? What does that look like at archery? And how does that bring the world closer together? So really drilling into that I think gives camp staff the understanding of what your purpose and your mission is in like real terms that are translatable to the work that they're going to be doing. But I think really the the biggest thing to me when I talked about mission with my staff when I was a camp director is you can use that as shared language for motivation. When it is July 15th and it's a hundred thousand degrees outside and everybody's grumpy with everybody else, you can sit folks down and say like okay let's bring it back to mission.

SPEAKER_00 24:00

How do we have our reality of we've all been working really hard together and how do we reorient to purpose in a way that it leads to intrinsic motivation for our staff I I I love that you're talking about our our staff training because that's probably where like most camp directors' minds are at this time of year making sure that our staff are ready to go for when the campers come and putting it in in their hands to kind of like dissect and talk about and giving them time to do that I think is a really really cool opportunity for them. And I also think I I love what you said at the end that you're giving you know in the middle of the summer and bringing that back in and reminding them that all this hard work they're doing yeah you haven't slept in a month and you've had you know you you're really really working hard but look what you have done. Remember two months ago when we talked about X, Y, and Z, you did that in bringing that to them and making them feel really good about it because when our staff feel good about what they're doing it it trickles down to the campers and the campers really feel it there's I think I mean I I have so many examples of myself as a camper and also watching my staff doing it that that when the staff are all in the campers are also all in the campers have so much more fun and they're so much more enthusiastic about what they're doing when their counselors are also enthusiastic about it. And then and then on top of that when the when the counselors like know all the good things they've done then they can talk about it with the campers and they can I'm like imagining me seeing that scene happening when I was a camper like if a counselor would have come up to me and said this is what we're doing I mean it could be that it happened and I was just like whatever that's a conversation for another time but if they were you know if they were into it in a different way and recognized that I needed to be pulled in and explained to me in my own way and it could have been it could have taken me so much further.

SPEAKER_01 26:17

It could have made such a much bigger impact on me when at the time yeah I think yeah when I think about mission I don't know I I'd like to know your thoughts about this like how how and when do we start that conversation with our staff? Like at what point do we need our staff to know like this is the purpose of our camp.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

I think there's plenty of camps that the the people who are doing the planning also aren't really clear on what the purpose should be. So I think it's it better late than never right if you if you're not there yet now's a great time to do it. Even if it's in the middle of the summer that someone is like hearing this or reading about this idea when the person leading the soccer activity knows are we focusing on teamwork or are we focusing on soccer skills or are we focusing on leadership? What hopefully all three but but you know I I remember actually a camp director saying to me once we're not really a sports camp because we were trying so hard to fit this big leagues and like all these sports things in and then we kind of were like wait we're not a sports camp I think your question was when does that conversation need to happen and I think on top of that who needs to be part of that conversation not maybe not conversation but who needs to be aware right like if only the one person who wrote the mission statement is aware of the mission statement there's no point or the parent who went on the website and read the mission statement and was like oh that sounds good apply right and that that doesn't help us so who needs to be aware of it and then and then like the question of when I guess we can add to that like how often how often do we need to remind ourselves I think that I don't even know that it becomes reminding ourselves because I think mission statement is actually rather academic.

SPEAKER_01 28:43

I think that it can be a set of words the actions of our staff are what give it meaning and so I would rather be able to ask my staff questions like how do you think how do you think that game of soccer how did you use giving people the power of community in the soccer match I don't need them to say the mission statement. I need to know how their actions align with the mission statement. So I think really when I when I heard kind of your answer a couple of big themes kind of emerged for me right like step one has to be is our mission statement the right mission statement? Did somebody write this in 1820 and now it is literally irrelevant or did somebody write it in 1820 and we actually want to reestablish connection with that mission. So that first step is is your mission right you got to get that far first. Then I feel like another piece that I can pull out of what you said is when you bring in staff, you have to bring in staff that will resource your mission right like you can't bring in staff that cannot align with your purpose or your mission. And then the third part of the plan seems to be not only do you have to bring in staff that can align, you have to teach them and resource them to engage and to activate that mission.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

There's so many different parts and I think for for someone who isn't already doing this I'm sure it feels overwhelming. I feel overwhelmed and and I've been talking about this with you for months already so I'm sure this feels overwhelming and I think baby steps and and you're already doing it you're already everyone right our camps are awesome and we're talking what we're talking about is just making them a little bit better. I think I wanna I wanna focus on the last thing about kind of like debriefing with the campers and right so like the campers being able to talk about what just happened ooh I heard a really cool thing. I think it was also Michael Bernard what it would how does it go? It goes what so what now what what happened how does it affect us and now what how are we gonna go forward with it and that's like that's such like a like a a quick thing to like a quick debrief type of thing that that the counselors can do the kids and then the kids the campers know realize what just happened oh I passed the ball to someone who I've never passed the ball to before that builds community and teamwork and lets them practice with this skill also and there's so many cool things there. But before that happens the counselors really need to understand what their purpose is and also what the camp as a whole wants for the campers. And before that happens before the counselors are able to do that right on on a whim at the end of the day when everyone's tired but still be able to have that conversation they need to like really have it in their head in order for them to really have it in their head the people you know who are teaching them need to really really understand it. So there's so many different layers so like just one little thing at a time baby steps but but that debrief I I think is so important. And right because there's as as I'm like as I'm learning as an adult there's so many different types of ways we learn things right like everyone's brain picks things up differently some kids like understand that oh I passed the ball that was a good thing not just because we scored a goal but like there were so many good things about that some kids like know right away and some kids don't and adults also a lot of adults see that was a goal scored and they don't they don't see right away that that was building community. So bringing that it's really I think it really takes a lot of practice to be able to recognize it and then be able to talk about it and see it and everything that happens during the day. And again we're like we're using soccer as an example here but it's it's every single thing throughout the day which I think we'll definitely have time to talk about another time meal times, down times everything in between when I was when I was in I want to say seventh grade we had a robes course staff who were amazing and they really debriefed every single little moment of that day and I think that's something else that I've always tried to replicate and never bit you know I guess I have been able to to get there a little bit by now but it's been also a long many many years trying to work on it. But yeah it takes time it takes practice and and the staff that are able to do that it makes the kids feel good about themselves. They're able to say yeah I had fun I had a great time I feel good about myself want to go back the next year there's there's you know there's so many there's so many reasons why this is so powerful.

SPEAKER_01 34:05

Yeah I think something that you're really honing in on here is the word practice is that I think that as as as humans we have become so oriented to the money that we make the goal that we score the praise the recognition that we get for being the best at something and so I think there's some unlearning that has to happen and you have to be intentional and slow with kids around that right like if that kid knows that it was a good thing that they passed the ball, that's because probably some adult at some point said, hey it's awesome that you passed the ball and if they're not getting that at home or at school right we have this opportunity at camp to be the people that that points out the stuff that isn't the goal that isn't being the best it is it is you are you are becoming better at building community and the more we build that community the more the community I feel like will take care of itself like take care of each other and that doesn't it doesn't mean we always score the goal. I've been really thinking about this in the context of camp the idea of winning and what does it mean to win and the biggest question that I'm answering as an adult again who was very driven by winning in my youth like can you have fun if you don't win? And I think just even five years ago I would have said no like it is not fun. Like you take the losses so you can enjoy the wins but what are the micro moments in a program where a camper loses that still allows them to have the conditions for fun? And I think that question is one that camps are actually really good at answering. Like they build into any type of competition that winning and losing is actually not the metric that all the steps to get to either one of those places can be opportunities for growth and alignment with mission.

SPEAKER_00 36:12

That's beautiful it's really beautiful I think we we hit on some really important things we talked about who needs to be involved in the conversation about what our what our goals are, what our purpose is we talked about how a lot of how to make it happen I know we only touched we only touched a tiny a tiny piece of of it we talked about when the conversation should start we really we talked about all the different people involved and different parts of the camp experience wow we talked about motivation and we talked about purpose a lot of really good things I agree I think that I think that was a lot of bouncing around and I still think there were some really good nuggets in there that that can again realign us to our purpose for doing this show which is to help folks design for the magic of camp.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

So thank you to all our listeners if today's episode sparked an idea don't let it fade out please share it with a coworker or let us know about it. We'd love for you to reach out and share your design ideas or question with us. You can text us using the link at the top of the show notes.

SPEAKER_00 37:37

You can also find me on Instagram at leadership lioness and if you're looking for me you can find me at chris at tqanp.com and again please be sure to tell your friends about what you heard today and please subscribe share and rate this podcast and don't forget to check out our show notes at gocamp.pro slash camp programming by design camp programming by design is part of the GoCamp Pro Podcast Network. Check out all our other podcasts at gocamp.pro slash podcast and thank you to our producers and the entire GoCamp Pro team they matched us Chris you and I they matched us together that's definitely also part of that camp magic that that we talk about. And again thank you to our listeners for joining us today.

SPEAKER_01 38:34

And remember the best camp moments happen by design