Boredom is NOT an Emergency - Camp Programming, by Design #2

https://gocamp.pro/campprogrammingbydesign/boredom

The Gift of Boredom: Why Uncomfortable "Dead Air" is Your Camp's Secret Weapon

When a camper drops the dreaded "I'm bored" bomb, most counselors panic and go into immediate rescue mode, treating it like a programmatic failure. But what if that uncomfortable silence isn't a problem to solve, but a necessary bridge to self-reflection, identity development, and deep human connection? Chris and Ariella unpack the neurobiology of boredom, the vulnerability of phone-free communication, and how camp leaders can intentionally design low-stimulation "green zones" that build true psychological resilience.

Big Ideas

• The Default Mode Network: Why your brain actually needs to step away from task-switching to activate imagination and process identity development.
• The Deceptive "Bored" Flag: The hidden emotional states—like homesickness or a desperate call for peer inclusion—that kids mislabel as boredom.
• The Dandelion Technique: How to train staff to blow away the guilt of programmatic "failure" and lean into curiosity instead.
• The 30-Second Task-Switching Nutrient Drain: Why our modern, over-stimulated brains run completely out of words by the end of the day, and the antidote camp naturally provides.
• Unlearning Productive Outcomes: Shifting staff and campers away from a zero-sum mindset where an activity is only successful if you catch a fish or win the game.

Your Hosts

• Ariella Skoczylas, Educator and Trainer - Leadership Lioness
• Chris Rehs-Dupin, Founder and President - TQAMP LLC

Our free Resilient Camp Blueprint diagnostic is available at: https://camp.mba/travis

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Camp Programming by Design, where we discuss the power of intentionality in what we do.

SPEAKER_01 0:06

If we look closer, the magic of camp isn't usually an accident. It's architecture.

SPEAKER_00 0:13

I'm Ariella. I go by she, her.

SPEAKER_01 0:16

And I'm Chris, and I use he him.

SPEAKER_00 0:19

And we are about to dive deep and explore the impact of camp experiences and how we can infuse intentionality into every moment, from the high-energy activities to the downtime, the meal times, and everything in between.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

And our goal is to stop just doing program and start designing for it. Because when we program for purpose, we build resilient communities that can change the world.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

Please take a minute to subscribe, share, and rate this podcast. And don't forget to check out our show notes at gocamp.pro slash camp programming by design. Let's get to work.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

In our last episode, we talked about how camp is not all about having fun. And when kids realize they're kind of outside of their fun zone, we sometimes hear the dreaded words, I'm bored. So if you're wondering what to do when you hear it, you know the answer is it's done by design. So Ariella, let's start with you. Do you think hearing I am bored is a bad thing at camp? Or what what thoughts crossed your mind when you hear I'm bored?

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Okay, so this is this is a really deep question. I I think sometimes we we hear the words I'm bored, and sometimes you can even see it on a camper's face before they even say it. And you can you can definitely catch it. I think that kids these days, and adults too. I find myself in the same same situation, we don't always know how to describe what we're feeling. And a lot of times we go towards boredom as a generic, I don't love how I'm feeling, but I'm not really sure what to do about it. And I don't really know how I'm feeling, and blah, someone help me. So kids will say I'm bored and or have that bored look on their face, not necessarily when they are actually bored, but often at a lot of other times. It could be when they are feeling homesick, which they don't know what that word is, even. It could be when they want to be participating, but they don't really know how to do that. It could be for a lot of different things, but I want to talk about that piece for a second. Kids in camp or humans in general really creative connection. And they want connection either with the counselor or with their friends. So saying I'm bored to the counselor kind of draws, they like they just want attention from the counselor. It's much harder, and we know like this generation, adults included, myself included, it's hard sometimes to strike up a conversation with someone who is older and cooler than you, like a camp counselor. So sometimes saying I'm bored is that is that request for connection. And for for other kids also, when if they want to connect with other kids, they could say I'm bored as uh like, hey guys, bring me into the circle. I'm I'm here. Did you forget about me? There's another piece to it that I think is the same reason that they're just they have this like uncomfortable feeling, but the reason isn't necessarily because of connection. It could be that they're not sure what they're supposed to be doing. That could mean they don't know where their friends are, you know. Maybe it's just like, okay, everyone's uh on the playground and like, but where's like my little group of friends that I want to go play with them? Or it could mean like I wasn't paying attention when you explain the rules of this game, or I'm not so good at this game. Can you help me figure this out? There could be a lot of a lot of different reasons that anybody would feel this uncomfortable feeling, and the solution is wanting to be. I guess it's also connection because they they want to participate, but it's less, I think it's the same thing. At the end of the day, it's probably psychologically, it's probably the same thing. But I think the way we get the way we get there, the how part of it could look different.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

I mean, I think what I was hearing, what and what you were sharing is one of the first things to do when somebody says I'm bored is make sure that they're reading their own signal correctly, right? And I think this is one thing that's really interesting about camp is it is a slower environment sometimes than school or at home, where everything is really, really planned out. So we get to experience more emotions in different ways. And because we experience more emotions, we have to figure out to do with those emotions. And I hadn't even thought about this thinking around boredom, that it could actually be a signal for a sign of not feeling connected to the thing, whatever the thing is that is happening, which I think again makes perfect sense in a world that is literally overprogrammed at every moment, right? We don't experience a lot of boredom. Most of us have a device that lives in our pocket that literally keeps us from not being bored ever. And so I think you enter a camp environment where you don't have that as a safety net and you have this experience and you don't know how to be present. So I love thinking about this the question of I am bored. What could it be a signal for? Are there other things that you think it could be a signal for besides I don't feel present or I am looking for connection?

SPEAKER_00 6:26

I mean, I'm sure I'm sure there are. I'm sure, I'm sure there are. There's another thing that I thought of as you were as you were saying that like we always have a phone in our pocket to kind of like save us from our from our boredom, which is we know I'm I'm doing air quotes, is not actual boredom, but we're not so good at or we we don't have as much practice communicating in person, human to human. So it it it sometimes does feel uncomfortable when we're not good at it and we're not so practiced at it. So we could say we could often hear I'm bored when it's a lack of practice with communicating. I know I didn't answer your question, but it I just it that just kind of came to mind. Even even kids that are like a group of friends I'm like picturing that are best friends with each other, often are most of their communication is through their phone. And then when they're physically together, they're still on their phones because it's difficult. It's really difficult when you're out of practice. So we're kind of forcing this no phone zone, and then we need to be aware and design appropriately for now that we don't have phones, which is totally not what we're what we planned on talking about today, but it's kind of just a different, a different part of it.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

I hadn't even thought about, right? So I was thinking of a phone as again something that is a constant simulation, but what you named, which is even more interesting to me, is it has changed the way we fundamentally communicate with each other, right? So it used to be two people talking, right? I talk to you, you say something back to me. Now we have the opportunity to self-edit before we say the thing. And so that self-editing gets in our brain, and we think we have to be able to do that naturally. And so conversation can become really unwieldy, right? Like it is harder and more vulnerable, and you have to take more risks to even have a conversation where you haven't written it down first and edited it and thought about is am I taking the selfie from the right direction or or whatever it is? Like live presence, and this is absolutely nothing to do with boredom, but exactly where I think we should have ended up, because I do think it all has to do with when you hear on board, there is a flag, there is a signal there. And we have fundamentally shifted the way we communicate in a way that makes it harder for kids in the canoe to talk to each other, right? Part of a lot of our programming at camp, even canoeing, there's a great example, right? So much of canoeing is communicating with the people with you. So much of fishing is sitting and thinking and waiting. So even though we're doing an activity, it can feel like boredom in a world where we don't know how to connect with the person next to us and talk about, like, oh, here, we're at fishing, and isn't the lake beautiful right now? Or what bait are you using? Or how did you sleep last night? Right. So it's almost like we silo ourselves in this communal activity that then manifests itself as boredom because we don't know what to do with the dead air.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

Yeah, yeah. So, so I I have a couple more things that I think could be helpful in in this boredom conversation, but but I want to ask you first, before we get into that, what crosses your mind when you hear I'm bored at camp?

SPEAKER_01 10:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

The first thing that comes to mind.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

The first thing that comes to mind, and I see this with my own kids too, is when somebody says they're they're bored, my first instinct is to say, that's okay. It's okay, right? It is an okay state to be in. I spent some time over the last couple of days really learning what happens in our brain when we become bored. And I am really excited to share and I want to hear kind of your thoughts around this, is that we actually have in our brain like a different mode that we got that comes online when we we get bored. It's called the default mode network. And it's kind of like when we're not getting hit with things, right? We we have the chance. Again, maybe we're holding a fishing pole, but our mind is wandering. We're somewhere called our default mode network, which is also one of the best spaces to process memory, to have imagination, to engage in self-reflection and even identity development. So boredom is actually a really natural space for us to do a lot of the things that give camp purpose, right? We talked about identity development and how important that is when we talk about camp environments and how people really have an opportunity to develop identity, especially young people, in ways that they don't at school. Now, I think the hard part here is kind of also what you're naming, in that if somebody becomes too bored, right, then they disengage because we also have this optimal arousal zone. So that's like enough stimulation to stay engaged, but not too much that they become overwhelmed. And we can do a lot when we're in that zone. Unfortunately, unfortunately, fortunately, the first thing that we have to do is allow that person to sit in discomfort. Because boredom is uncomfortable when it is not a practice. And often because kids don't engage with it very much, they feel like they're going into a danger zone when they're bored, like, oh my gosh, nobody likes me. I don't have any friends here. This is not going to be fun for the rest of the time we're here, right? It's that lower resilience threshold that we see. But it is discomfort. It is not a lack of safety, even if that person feels unsafe. And if you can help get them back in their zone of regulation, that's when we get to this treasure trove of skills that most kids aren't reaching towards because they are consistently engaged. So I think, again, I think of our fishing example, right? To make it a little bit more concrete. If we, if the conversation with that kid at fishing can be like, well, tell me what boredom feels like for you. Do you want me to help connect you with your friend who's fishing right next to you? Do you design your fishing program so you intentionally talk about boredom before they get bored? So it's not as scary when it happens. So, what is the front loading at the fishing program that allows kids to sit through that discomfort and get to the richness of that default mode network?

SPEAKER_00 13:31

I'm in love with this. I think I've never been to a camp that had a fishing program that that like gave us gave enough time to be bored. There was always like also something else going on, or it was like you all those places where you always catch a fish and it takes two seconds to catch a fish. So this is beautiful. This is really beautiful because you're talking a lot about like education that's just like really healthy for the individual, that they definitely will take with them outside of camp. When you first started talking about this, I was like, whoa, that's a lot of like relearning, and we're gonna have to like teach our entire parent body that at our camp we say boredom is good. And and but when the when the campers really understand this the way you described it before the fishing program starts, they really understand it, and then they can go home and be proud of their boredom and tell their parents that you know what they learned about what to do when you're sitting quietly, and you know, so there's so many extra benefits to really thinking about what the activity is and what we want to happen during that activity. And it's a fishing program, is not the goal of it is not to catch a fish, the goal is a lot of things, but right now for me, the goal is to learn about yourself. Like for me to sit and learn about myself. That's really beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 15:15

Yeah, and I I actually I do a lot of fishing and I started this last summer, and I go fishing every Friday with my father-in-law, who's my very good friend. And it was hard at first. Ariel, it was so hard at first because I was, I mean, I have a busy brain. I am constantly doing something, I'm constantly on my phone. I'm if I'm not on my phone, I'm reading something, you know, like I keep myself very engaged. And the first couple of times, I really had to say, like, just stick with it, just stick with it. And I'm I'm grateful to say that this Friday, tomorrow, is gonna be the first fishing Friday of the season. And I can't wait to get back to it now because I I know that it really is like you have all of this space and time to look at the trees and listen to the birds. And um, I I said, like I said, I go with my father-in-law, but we we rarely speak to each other, we just coexist in the same space. And I have I have found the weeks that I do that, I'm better set up for success in the rest of the tasks that I do. Here's another really interesting piece of of brain science that I learned is when we switch tasks, right? Like when our brain is like, I gotta go from this thing to this thing to this thing, it takes actual nutrients to do that. And just about 20 years ago, our brains were switching tasks every three minutes. Over the past 20 years, it's down to like every 30 seconds, our brain's looking for a new task. So think about the amount of nutrients that it's literally taking from your brain. And no wonder we're all tired by the end of the day and run out of words to say because we've done this task switching all day long. And kids are doing that as well.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

Yeah, yeah. I think I remember hearing that. And for for younger kids, it's even shorter than 30 seconds. I the number I remember is 17 seconds for or maybe even 11 seconds, something like out outrageously short. Yeah, that's exhausting. Yeah, yeah. So just so even just planning in advance, when like if if a camp doesn't even have a fishing program, when what activities can you incorporate teaching the kids how to sit with their own thoughts?

SPEAKER_01 17:47

And I and I think when we design for it, we have to be very intentional about the on-ramping, right? That you don't stick a group of seven-year-olds in the wood and say, like, let's be quiet for seven minutes. Like they will hate it, right? But like maybe we can do a minute.

SPEAKER_00 18:07

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

And let people sit in that and again, like work through that discomfort and realize like that wasn't horrible. I could do this again tomorrow.

SPEAKER_00 18:16

Yeah, yeah. I actually remember a camp that I went to and we had this activity at night in the woods, and a bunch of like different little short things that they did with us. But one of the things that that they did was we were all in one spot, and then one of the counselors went like, I don't know, it was probably like 20 feet ahead. And one by one we walked in pitch black, we walked over there, and just to experience walking alone in the dark in the woods, and it was obviously safe because we were in the campsite and it was just real, it was like really direct and not so far away. But I remember a lot of the kids, I think even like one of the older adults that was with us was terrified of that, and I thought it was the coolest thing ever. And so, even just that, it probably was like 30 seconds of being alone, but just create creating that was so powerful.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

And the dark is always a metaphor to me for the unknown, right? Like, and kids, kids and adults struggle with unknowns now more than ever because we can know, or we can at least think that we know anything, right? Kids don't have to wonder much of anything. With my own kids, anytime they want to know something, they can look it up. Or, and if they don't have one of their devices, they ask me to look it up on my device. And I've kind of come to the conclusion that my best response is like, I'll do that, but give me three answers that you think it could be before I look it up to like get them to that place of curiosity that I feel like you probably are more likely to get to when you're in that default mode network that I was talking about. So, how how walking in the dark, like that seems like such a simple action to put one foot in front of the other, and somebody could say, that sounds really, really boring. And that might be the coolest thing that somebody does at camp. I know for me, that experience of really being alone with my own thoughts, I almost never get there unless I have to. But if I'm challenged with it, I almost always love it.

SPEAKER_00 20:39

So, how do you think we we create this balance or we design this balance between unstructured low stimulation time and excitement?

SPEAKER_01 20:55

Yeah, I think that I think you said the right word. I think it's balance. I think it's like, I don't know, I'm thinking about like really tactile things. Like if I'm looking at my camp schedule and I'm looking at all of the activities we're gonna do in a day, like really trying to make sure there is a balance. And maybe you're taking a highlighter and you're highlighting all of the things that are gonna be your all camp activity is gonna be in pink because whoa, that's gonna be it's gonna be overwhelming. Your time at the waterfront, let's let's go ahead and put that in pink. That's gonna be overwhelming. Where are your green zones? Where are your downtime zones where we know that we are we're gonna have to provide this support for boredom? I had never even thought about this, right? So so many of the camps that I worked at when it was rest hour, that was the best time for staff to have their time off. What if we're doing that exactly wrong in that, like actually we need to resource our cabin or our group. So when boredom comes up, we have a safe adult who can help us hold that. Because even though it is a low stimulation time, campers almost need more support for that than the all camp where they're gonna just be wilding out, you know?

SPEAKER_00 22:12

Yeah, yeah. I actually have recently encountered a couple camps who are doing exactly what you described. They're doing it an amazing job at it. That the counselor's downtime is during the camper's just regular activities that are standard. Like, well, we'll say soccer again. So during soccer, make sure your kids get to the soccer field. Okay, make sure that you know everyone knows where they're supposed to be and they've all gone to the bathroom already and done all their things and and they're they're set, and then go take some time off and then meet them back at the end of that hour. And then during quote unquote downtime is when the counselors are on, because that's it's such a unique time that they can just play quiet games together, have conversations, ask the kids about their siblings and their pets and those types of things, invent games together, dig in the dirt, you know, things that they wouldn't normally be doing while they're doing their very busy schedule. So I think there are, thank goodness, a lot of camps that are doing that specific when there's when there's downtime on the schedule, written on the schedule, rest time. I think there are some camps that are really doing that right.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

What do you think about free time, right? Like a free play when when there's just like open play and it's like everybody's in a field and they're doing a thing. That is a space where I see kids again thinking of it as a flag for lack of connection, are like, I am bored. I don't want to play soccer, I don't want to be on the climbing, you know, like I don't want to do any of these things. How do we design to hold boredom then?

SPEAKER_00 24:03

Okay, so I think that type of boredom when there's like chaos and it's not like quiet time for me to sit with my thoughts, that type of boredom is what I think I had more in mind when I was describing this need for connection. So in my experience, and and I'm sure you have some really good thoughts on this, but in my experience, confronting those campers, not confronting, but talking to them, striking up conversation with them, and giving our counselors the tools to like a list of things to talk about with the campers during those times and noticing it even before it happens, even before the camper comes up to you and says, I'm bored, noticing which campers need to be, hey, come, let's play this game with this group of kids, or hey, join us in our little conversation circle over here. I think identifying that and knowing what to do about it and knowing that it's not necessarily that they're bored, it's that they they don't know what to do. There's a lot of options, maybe too many options. They want, they want to be brought into the circle. So I think equipping the counselors with it and and that that it's not it's not a bad thing, it's not bad to be bored. And I think it really is a uh like reaching out and call for help. I I want to connect, I want to be included, I want, I want to talk to you. So, so for giving counselors, conversation starters for the kids, recognizing that they just want to be involved in anything, usually doesn't even matter, they just want to be involved in anything. We're just asking then, like which activity that you see in front of you out of the the seven choices, which one is your most favorite, which one is your least favorite, and then kind of figuring out how to how to make that happen. After speaking to a lot of camps, I often start when I speak to like the division heads or could be program directors, that those types of individuals. And I think for all adults in general, I say, what are our goals this summer? And a lot oftentimes our goals are I want to connect with my kids. I want to, you know, there's there's a lot of like really beautiful goals, but I think, and what I've heard is we also want our own summer to be enjoyable for ourselves, for the people behind the scenes planning everything. We want it to be enjoyable for ourselves. And one way for that to happen is for our jobs to be easy. And when campers are saying they're bored, sometimes it feels like, oh, this is so hard. My kids are always bored, and there's so many options opportunities, there's there's so many things for them to be doing. Just go do something, and why are you always bored? And it makes our jobs feel very heavy and not and not easy. And camp is supposed to be light and fun, and and it doesn't have to be difficult, it can be easy. And I think when we're prepared and we design our programs and our our trainings in a way that we can recognize these thoughts where potential onboard might come up and know when those times, you know, you know, like be prepared for those times and be prepared with responses. It makes our it makes all of the work much easier. And at the end of the day, makes the kids happier. We we know, right? Like the kids at the end of the day are gonna go home happy. They're gonna, they're gonna have made new friends, they're gonna have learned how to play new games, they're gonna learn about themselves, they're gonna be happy kids, fulfilled kids. And then we ful feel fulfilled. It's really like everything is perfect.

SPEAKER_01 28:02

I love that. And I think that what that flagged for me is this feeling, almost this feeling that I used to get as a direct service staff member when I was a counselor, is like boredom is an emergency. And like somebody, watch out. Somebody said they're bored. I gotta, I gotta solve this problem right now, or somebody's gonna get hurt, right? That is not, in fact, the case. And I hear what you're saying that I hadn't connected before is that that because it's because it feels like you've failed. You feel like I've put together this great experience. And if a camper says they're bored, I have failed. And if we could just like throw that away, like blow that idea away, just get it like a dandelion. Like, see you later. But like look at it as this opportunity, which is actually what it is. And instead of going into problem solving mode, help that hamper connect to their own problem solve. You did it beautifully. Like instead of saying, well, then go do this, asking questions. What could what does boredom mean? Like, what why are you feeling uncomfortable right now? What are these activities sounds like fun to you? Are there any part of these activities that sound fun to you? So, one of two things is gonna happen. That kid is going to come up with a thing that they can go do, or they're going to get so bored with your philosophical questions, they're gonna go do something else, right? And I think either one, they're getting to explore that feeling, and you're actually helping them problem solve out of the boredom problem, which isn't actually a problem. Okay, so here is my super, super tactile question. What if you're designing a staff training about boredom, what what kind of based on our conversation would you want your staff to absolutely know?

SPEAKER_00 29:57

That's a really good question. I would design it in a in a way to give them the experience of of boredom and talk about what are you feeling right now? And like teach teach them exactly what you said that it's hard in the beginning, and the more you do it, the better you are at it, and you'll find yourself craving it, craving this time that your brain has a chance to just like take a deep breath and get all the thoughts going, and it's not a bad thing. Boredom is not a bad thing.

SPEAKER_01 30:36

I think I think we're designing a really great training here, and I think that the only other two things that I would I would add to that is that you have to do it with baby steps, right? Like you have to unrank more boredom. Yeah, so again, don't make your kids sit in silence for a silly amount of time. Right. And the other thing that I think I would want to pull out and make sure is those tools that help staff connect campers with their own problem solves for boredom.

SPEAKER_00 31:08

So instead of rescuing, I think like that's a general campy thing, teaching kids how to problem solve on their own. And that that could be like endless, right? Yeah. And so I think specifically with the boredom, probably number one thing to to remember is that saying I'm bored isn't isn't a bad thing, right? Like you said really, really perfectly that we put so much time, money, energy into this program. How can you possibly say you're bored? It doesn't really mean they're bored. They're they're looking for something. And sometimes it could be we're just gonna sit here and we're gonna think about our thoughts and our feelings, or it's gonna be come join our circle and have a chat with us and tell me about your dog. I'm remembering now also that we we feel really good, kids and adults feel really good when we've accomplished something. And I think this is a piece that we didn't talk about. That sometimes when we're challenged with something, if it's too difficult, we say we default to that on board. When what we really mean is this is really hard. And not in a I not in a sense of what we said with like connecting or just like this activity is too hard for me. It could be in the art room, you know. This is this is hard. Art is not easy and enjoyable for everybody. And often kids say they're bored in in art. Like for some people, like, how can you possibly say you're bored in art? Go the opportunities are endless in here, go paint. But for some kids, it really is a challenge for them. And when they feel like I'm not good at this, they humans say get that uncomfortable feeling. So I think that's another piece of it, is sometimes it's a call for help. Help me through this challenge that I find difficult. So I think that's another thing for counselors to recognize that it's not necessarily that you don't like art. It could be that you feel that you're you're not confident in what you're doing and they need a little bit of a push in in some in one direction or another.

SPEAKER_01 33:34

I love that. And I think the thing that it's that sparks for me is this idea that it's also some deep unlearning that we have to do, both for our kids and adults, which is unlearning that everything has to be productive. Right. If you go fishing and you don't catch a fish, you still went fishing. But somebody, right? We are we are like kind of persuaded to think that unless we catch the fish, which almost always we're going to just release back into the wild, right? Like, I don't think there's a lot of camps, I'm not saying there's none, that are using fish to feed the campers, right? Like there is nothing wrong with having a bad art project. There's nothing wrong with not catching a fish and not winning in kickball. That it is a zero sum. You actually lose nothing, but you can sit in that and like realize that that wasn't the thing that you thought you were producing was actually not the purpose at all.

SPEAKER_00 34:36

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think this this is reminding me also that a lot of times when kids say they're bored and we don't know what to do with that information, we kind of just like push it off, ignore it, you're fine, you're fine, go flying, right? When we when we don't deal with when we don't have a good response to it, it often leads to behavioral problems that are totally unnecessary. And I think we can probably spend a whole not other hour discussing behavior problems, but I think this is definitely a solution to most behavior problems is catching the boredom before it surfaces and realizing what we can do for our kids to help them feel successful, help them feel connection, help them feel like they can do challenging things and they don't have to always catch a fish at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_01 35:42

I love that. I love this conversation. I learned so much. Thank you. So thank you to all of our listeners. If today's episode sparked an idea, don't let it fade out. Share it with a coworker or let us know about it. We'd love for you to reach out and share your design ideas or questions with us so you can text us using the link at the top of the show notes.

SPEAKER_00 36:04

And you can find me on Instagram at leadership lioness.

SPEAKER_01 36:10

And you can find me at Chris at tqamp.com.

SPEAKER_00 36:15

And please be sure to tell your friends about what you heard today. And please again take a second to subscribe, share, and rate this podcast. And don't forget to check out our show notes at gocamp.pro slash camp programming by design.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

Camp Programming by Design is part of the GoCamp Pro Podcast Network. Check out all our other podcasts at gocamp.pro slash podcast.

SPEAKER_00 36:42

Thank you again to our producers and the entire GoCamp Pro team and again to our listeners. Thank you so much for joining us today.

SPEAKER_01 36:50

And remember, the best camp moments happen by design.