Click Here To Join The Sustainable Sobriety Course Today.
YOU CAN BREAK FREE FROM THE CYCLE OF STOPPING AND STARTING AND THE TRAP OF MODERATION,
BY EMBRACING A PATH THAT ALLOWS YOU TO MOVE FORWARD WITHOUT THE BURDEN OF COUNTING DAYS OR HIDING YOUR TRUE SELF.
Sustainable Sobriety Is Here! Keep the needle moving forward no matter if you do or don't drink.
Join Sustainable Sobriety Course, where you'll learn everything to find the confidence to be authentically you in a compact, affordable, lifetime access package.
Click Here To Join The Sustainable Sobriety Course Today.
YOU CAN BREAK FREE FROM THE CYCLE OF STOPPING AND STARTING AND THE TRAP OF MODERATION,
BY EMBRACING A PATH THAT ALLOWS YOU TO MOVE FORWARD WITHOUT THE BURDEN OF COUNTING DAYS OR HIDING YOUR TRUE SELF.
Sustainable Sobriety Is Here! Keep the needle moving forward no matter if you do or don't drink.
Join Sustainable Sobriety Course, where you'll learn everything to find the confidence to be authentically you in a compact, affordable, lifetime access package.
Do you ever feel like you're outgrowing alcohol, that you are longing for a deeper connection to life? If alcohol is keeping you playing small and feels like the one area, you just can't figure out you are in the right place. Hi, my name is Mary Wagstaff. I'm a Holistic alcohol coach who ended a 20 year relationship to alcohol without labels, counting days or ever making excuses. Now I help powerful women just like you eliminate their desire to drink on their own terms. In this podcast, we will explore the revolutionary approach of my proven five shifts process that gets alcohol out of your way by breaking all of the rules, and the profound experience that it is to rediscover who you are on the other side of alcohol. I am so thrilled to be your guide. Welcome to your journey of awakening. Welcome back to the show my beautiful listeners, thank you so much for being here for another episode, we have a very, very special guest on today only the second of his kind so far. You know, a colleague of sorts, and someone that's come into my life as an inspiration, because I feel like we share a lot of the same messages about getting to the other side of alcohol. And I was actually fortunate enough that he invited me on his show his podcast, and I would love for him to tell you a little bit about that. But welcome, Martin, John to the show. Thank you so much for being here. Oh, it is my pleasure. Thank you so much. And yeah, like connecting with you throughout podcast, it's been beautiful. Yeah, well, I would love for you just to start out giving the audience just a little I know, it's hard to define, like we've talked about I am dot dot dot, like, is there anything else that needs to be said, but in the in the 3d realms tell the audience a little bit about what you're up to in space. So as I as I, so you know, as a primer, I have 21 years clean and sober. And in 2014, when I had 14 years clean and sober, I got diagnosed with MS. And that really changed my experience of how I do what I do, I was doing like arts and production before that. And and that moved me into understanding that I knew something about recovery that a lot of people don't, and that is that I'm recovering to who I am, I'm not, I'm no longer recovering from any one specific thing I'm really recovering from having lived under the influence. And that's a big part of my message is like, I want people to become aware of the fact that they're living under the influence, and they're living under the influence of their parents, and then their teachers and the education system, and then their peers and partners and culture and marketing. And when we live under the influence, we all of a sudden have a we try to attach ourselves to an identity, so that we can align with those influences that we have, we want to be a good woman or we want to be a good man or we want to be strong or we want to and all of those identities. They are they limit us from being us like you said I am. And I would say full stop. I am. And I am good. And I am bad. But I don't need to define anything that I do as anything other than like, well, I am this right now. And I am just doing this and it doesn't have a definition it doesn't have it doesn't have to sit on some spectrum anywhere. It's just what's happening with me. So a large part of what I do is talk about recovering yourself. My podcast is titled recover yourself. I have a workshop that's available now that's recovery yourself. And that workshop was built for drug and alcohol rehab counselors to earn continuing education units. And now it's available for everybody so that because way too many people think oh, recovery is not for me because I don't have an addiction. Well, recovery is kind of for everybody. When we look at it from a different perspective. If we're looking at recovering from yes, we're looking over our shoulder at that thing back there that we used to do. But when we look at recovering to we're like, oh, let's move forward into this thing in front of us. Let's move into who we are. And that's that's really the what what really kind of blows up my skirt, right? Like that's the thing that that excites me is really spreading this message that we're recovering to something and we're all doing that. And we're doing that because as soon as we're born, we start living under the influence of our parents. And we think there's a standard, right we think, Oh, this is normal. And then when you realize that, Oh, your family wasn't as normal as someone else's family, then you put yourself on that spectrum. And that spectrum really can get us off course as to being who we are. And then we have diagnoses and other things like that. It's like, yeah, I have a diagnosis of MS. But I don't have Ms. Right? Like, that's, that's a mental thing. That's the thing that tells me Oh, now I am the victim to this thing. And that's not the way forward in any recovery journey. Yeah. Now you guys know all of your listeners why I invited Martin John on because he has such a great message. And I've talked about this, you know, that being that we're not only under the influence of the chemical of alcohol, but the what it means to not be a drinker, what it means to get support, right, all of those things that have been in the social stigma. And the other thing that I think you and I share a message on is that we don't need to blame human evolution, or the way that we got to where we got to move forward from it, we just need to become aware that it's not the truth, and like, we're here now. And so, you know, I like so as long as you know, capitalism and consumerism exists, like people are going to be trying to sell you stuff, right. And it's, it's up to the individual to, to, to create more self authority inside and just ask with curiosity, like, is this whose beliefs are these right? And? And do I want to choose to believe them anymore? Right? And the better we get at that, but the self authority piece, I think the world just becomes such a more just, we can really appreciate the wonder and awe of the spectrum of human emotion. You know, I got I got I got I saw I ran across something today that was like, this is just human decency. Doing something I forget what it was, was like, this is human decency. And I was just like, and we have to and this, this might this to your listeners, this might sound like fucking wacko. But there is no human decency. There is no politeness there is no courteousness. All of that stuff that you learned is influence all of that stuff that you learn now, if you are genuinely drawn to send somebody a thank you card, and you do that with just love, and it's not an obligation that you're doing. And that's what you're doing. Now. Is that nice? Well, it could be defined by that. It could, is that courteous Is that is that. But if you're doing it, because it's what's expected, then you're not nice. Right, right. You're not You're there's nothing nice about you, you're just following a protocol under which you're living under the influence, right, like so. So it's a really kind of tricky thing. There is no, there is no human decency, like because a human being is capable of murder. And that would not fall under the, you know, the moniker, human decency, right? And so it's, you know, like humans are also capable of torture and horrible, horrible things. But when you follow your heart, and when you feel connected, and when you feel in love, and I'm not trying to say that, like, those, those basic tenants of whatever human decency would however we describe that or prescribe that. But as soon as you start to have any sort of line of right and wrong, it's going to, you know, like, where do you stop, and all of a sudden, you start having to check on your own actions, eventually, we'll catch up with you. And if we can live moment to moment, like you were saying, Are they moment to moment, be here now and be and check in with that awareness, which we haven't always been able to do? I think awareness is really becoming more and more accessible every day. Once we check in with that awareness, be like, Oh, I'm actually feeling angry, and I don't actually want to punch this person in the face. It's just because I'm angry. It's because I, you know, like, whatever is because I had an experience and they triggered me. You know, it's interesting. I read, you know, about the doubt a Ching. Yeah, I read chapter 61. Today, I'm gonna I'm gonna open it up. Do you mind? No, not at all. I would love that. I was going to ask you about Zen and the Art of recovering yourself. So Oh, yeah. That's, so there's a line in here. It says it takes a great a great nation is like a great man. When he makes a mistake, he realizes it. Having realized it, he admits it. Having admitted it, he corrects it. He considers those who point out his faults as his most benevolent teachers, he thinks of his enemies as the shadow he himself casts. Now, when I when I look at getting triggered when I look at getting upset, and that's not the whole of 61. But But that's, that's the section that I wanted to address. When I look at this as he, he considers those who point out his his faults. You know, we can look at that as like, oh, they pointed it out, they told me I'm wrong, but people aren't going to do that. What's going to happen is you're going to go out in the world, and you're gonna get angry at something at some point. And that is that person or that thing that's getting you angry, pointing out your fault. It is your shadow what you're mad at so if you're angry at politics right now, for whatever reason, you're angry. That is pointing out your fault. And you can look out and you can find an enemy. But there in the in the Dow It also states to have an enemy is to be an enemy. So it's really important for you, when you look out at the world and you get triggered to use that trigger as your lesson that is your that is yours. That's your shadow, like you're getting upset. Who the hell cares? Other than you? You could you could believe that, oh, it's human decency. Everybody hates politics right now, everybody hates Trump, or everybody hates Biden, or he is horrible or whatever. And, and you can look at that. But if you look at what you're actually upset at, that's pointing to you. And when you can recognize that then, then you won't want to be like, oh, and I know a lot of people say this, I've heard it just like, Well, if he dies, I wouldn't be upset. It's like, that's humanity. That's a human being. And they do deserve respect, no matter no matter if you agree with them or not, like, even if they were a murderer, you know, I was here in Illinois, we have that we had a shooting recently at a parade. And, and I was talking to someone who lives in the area, because we're friends. And I was like, you know, the thing is, is like we got we got to look at both sides, right? We got to look at the shooter. And we got to look at, you know, gun laws. And we also got to look at the people who were injured. But but you know, and she was like, Well, yeah, but but this isn't about mental illness. No, it's about human pain. Here's someone who was hurting so much, that they did this thing, right. And, and you can say it's the gun laws, but here's someone without the gun laws, they would have continued to go undiagnosed. You know, and so because the gun laws are in place, and yes, many people lost their lives, but because the gun laws are in place, this person, you know, like, shit rose to the top, and then all of a sudden, you're like, This person needs help. Rather than just being like, well, they don't have the guns to go out and do that. Let them stay in their, in their basement, just brooding and being upset and miserable. You know, it's like, when we get triggered, those things that hurt us are pointing back to us. And it's really important to like, you know, be empathetic towards everybody, even if we don't agree. Yeah, yeah, I, there's so much there's so much there. And it's I mean, it's kind of it's the symptom, right. And I think we can say that about alcohol, like alcohol is the symptom of an unfelt, or emotion in so many ways. And, you know, I was thinking about this, I think about this often, and I don't know if you have them where you are, but around here in the Pacific Northwest, a lot of people have these signs. And I've talked about that, like, we had to look at the whole picture, like what is causing people to take these horrific acts, and for sure, studying mindfulness and Zen, I've been able to really put myself in this place of, you know, metta, Metta meditation, I mean, offering loving kindness and compassion to everyone. But we have these signs that say, in our house, we believe science is real love is the way you know, immigrants are wealth, all these things. And it's like, do you really believe that like, if that if that person you know, and I believe all those things are saying to but it's like, is it only if they believe in what you believe and because if you meet that person face to face, and you have a political conversation, are they still welcome in your home? Like, does this is this the full spectrum of what you're saying? And it's just one An example of, you know, we have to have diversity and love and all of the things. But does it mean everyone? Because if it doesn't, then that's not true. Usually it doesn't. Right. And that's the problem. And like, and I've been talking a lot about Michael singer on the show, have you tethered soul? I don't, I don't know, I've gone through a lot of books. Like I listen to books. Yeah. But either way he is, it's been around for a while, it's kind of always been in the background of my brain. But I he's, he wrote a sequel. And so he's on this podcast to our, you know, certain teachers come into your life at the right times. And he literally, I mean, so much of what he talks about, is exactly what you're saying, and exactly what I talked about, too, which is, so many things pass through us, right, we see a tree, we have an experience, we have a conversation, some stuff comes and goes comes and goes, comes and goes. And the things that he says is that when something bumps up against you, it's bumping up against your stuff. And so that's why you're saying it's like it's showing you your shadow. And so it's not like this is the golden rule that this circumstance is going to make everyone feel this emotion. No, this is that one circumstance that couldn't pass through you, because you have stuff in there, that hasn't been moved, that hasn't been released, that hasn't been, you know, fully experienced. And then underneath that are all of these things that you're under the influence of, right. And so I mean, it can be really, and I tried to give you some of the listeners on the show, like things to really look at and, and I and I was interested in your process, and maybe even what you work with your clients on. Know, I talk about allowing an emotion to have a beginning, middle and end that emotions are, are the thing that makes us the most human, right, they are like our most human trait. And to to get to know them. Kind of just from a neutral perspective, and really explore them and understand them and feel them and have a conversation with them is a really is a really powerful life changing experience. And this is what we for me what we need to do to get to the other side of the desire and attachment to alcohol. It's been the tool that I've used. What is your? How do you work with emotion? What do you do? Aye. Aye. Emotion is fine. I don't work with it. Because emotion is motion is a liar. I think emotion is like although yes, it is, you know, like this human experience and stuff. Yeah, I agree with that. But you know, like elephants more, you know, like, so it's it's not strictly human. And I think it is chemical mostly. And because it's chemical. They're addictive. And so the more we work with them, and depending on how you're working with them, like you said, looking at them from a neutral perspective, that is the way like, I don't care about your motion. I don't really care if you're hurt. Like why should your hurt? Should ain't my problem. Right? Like, this is what I say about people who drink as well you drink, I don't care. Your sobriety means nothing to me. Why should it? It's your sobriety. Do you want it? Okay? What do you want me to do? You know, do you want me to remove all the alcohol from the house? Why is someone going to do that for the rest of your life? Like I don't like you're going to get emotional. Now, when you're done being emotional, when you're done being emotional, with all of this stuff, when you're done being triggered when you're done being angry. And I say, Look, if you're angry, and you usually throw stuff, go ahead and throw stuff, you've done it all this time, go ahead and do it. How do I care? If that's what you do? Go do it. If you cry, and you cry, and and you've done this, you've survived the way you deal with your emotions so far. So my guess is if you do it again, it's not going to be a big deal. Right? Like if you judge yourself for having the emotion or responding to the emotion in the way that you do? Well, that's a problem. That's judgment, that's not emotion. And I deal with judgment. And I work with judgment a little bit in terms of like, well, how arrogant are you to think that people should care about your emotions? You know, like, how, how important do you really think you are? Nobody cares about us? Right? Like, we're the ones that have to do that, you know? So what I say is when you're done, now go back into the emotion and find out where it started. And then when you say, well, that's some bitch did this thing. Okay, what's that thing and why did they do it? Right? Like why did they do Do that thing, whatever I mean, it's really hard to talk about. Surely hard to talk about these things in the abstract because people don't necessarily get it, I can tell a story about me like one of the first times I went through this process I was driving people cut me off all the time, we get cut off all the time, and I'd get upset. And I would hold on to that anger and I'm flip them off. And I would, I would threaten all of our lives by passing them cutting them off and doing all those sorts of things. But then I would realize that I would be so angry. And I would always say these, you know, these people are not paying attention. Paying attention, everybody that caught me off is not paying attention. And eventually, I realized, wait a minute, it can't be possible that each and every person who caught me off is not paying attention. That's just the same story I'm telling every time. And that's the thing that's pissing me off. It's like, oh, they do this because they're not paying attention. Okay, well, what is my relationship to paying attention, and I really recognize that Oh. So I used to get in a lot of trouble all the time, I used to get hit and stuff just because I would spill things. And I would be told I'm not paying attention. But it wasn't that I wasn't paying attention. I just wasn't paying attention to that. Or it wasn't important to me, or whatever. The reason was that I had this, I had all of this pent up fear about being identified as someone who didn't pay attention. And so I looked out at the world. And I tried to do a couple things. One, show everybody how much I'm paying attention by pointing out everybody that wasn't paying attention, and create that spectrum, say, Look, I am not on the end of the spectrum of not paying attention, because they're not paying attention. And then I could put myself higher on the spectrum of not paying attention. And when I recognize that my, my relationship to being cut off, and my relationship to this anger that I had was about me not paying attention. And, and I was able to exercise this oh, you know what? And the next time I get cut off? Oh, he's not paying attention. Oh, wait. I don't know that. But I do know that I have a relationship with paying attention. That's a little messed up so he can cut me off. That's fine. And really, I haven't been cut off in the last 20 years or since that point, right. And it's not that people haven't merged in front of me close. Because getting cut off is something that I define. Right? being yelled at is something that I define, someone can yell at me. But if I don't define it as having been yelled at, and I'm not getting yelled at, yeah, all of that stuff is self defined. And so when I get triggered, have the emotion, flip them off, try and kill them and drive them off the road. Do all that stuff. And when you're done, say, wonder where that came from? Why am I mad at this guy? I'm mad because he's not paying attention. Do you know he's not paying attention? What's your relationship to paying attention? And that is how I so I have a workshop recover yourself. You guys can find that on my website and stuff, but but being able to go through that process of like, what is the story here? And then behind the story, what's the theme? And then behind the theme, who were you? Yeah, and that is, that is a way that I've discovered to get access to the back door of our brain. Because when we look at our trauma, when we look at things that frustrate us, and we do that trying to knock on the front door of our trauma, our brains like this, get those get to step in because I am not going to let you in because this is going to hurt you. And that's why a lot of people go I know my trauma. I know my trauma. I know my trauma. I know my trauma, I know where it is. I know what but you keep walking dead into it every time. It's like, Yeah, I know my trauma. And here it is, again, you know, every relationship I have turns into this. Yes. Because although you know your trauma, you have no idea how to be aware of when it shows up. You have no idea how to actually process what you're doing, because it's you nobody is doing anything to you. You know, like, like I even like to say and I don't know if I got this, I heard that this is a Ram Dass thing, but I'm not a big Ram Dass scholar, but he says there are no other people. And I've been saying that for a long time this idea that no, it's you. You think there's other people out there. It looks like there's other people out there. But you can't experience other people because you're experiencing it through your brain through your perception. And so there are no other people. It's all you Yes, thank you. I love that and I you know, I think the more we just accept what I hear when you're, you know, talking about emotions, don't really They matter they don't kind of exist. It is because what I've experienced is that it's the presence of the emotion and we're feeling a sensation in the body. And that is real, right. And it's chemical induced. But what it does is when it's when we're so intertwined, without the awareness with the thought and the emotion, then the story is true, right? Because we feel those sensations, that vibration in our body. And that's a real experience in the moment, it it signals that the thought that came with it until we investigate, it is that story, that thing that we're under the influence of is the truth, right? That it's not just an opinion, and what Michael singer says, and I'll just say, again, cuz I've been kind of obsessed with him lately is it's not the moment in front of you that's bothering you, you're bothering yourself about the moment in front of you. Right? In the better that we can get at this, well, what I see is the need for alcohol becomes less. And we can start to create, also, I believe what I've been able to do is a life on purpose. I mean, we can be open to whatever shows up for us. But in my experience, I've been able to create, by removing those stories and creating the stories that I that I want to live into, and then I and then I want my life to look like it doesn't always happen, stuff still bumps up against me all the time. But I have moments where, you know, I'm definitely able to be when you started talking about, you know, the politics and all of that. I mean, many, many things, and I'm sure this is your experience have shifted for me the the reactions that I had, you know, even when I was probably before I was drinking, so I've been on this path for a long time. But changing my relationship to alcohol and being able to see where I was, quote unquote, wrong, or where I had this, this illusion of a story has really opened my eyes because to me, it was like the biggest blinders came off, right? Like it was just like I was blindsided by something that I thought was just always going to be a truth for me. And so it's helped me to be able to just examine that in so many other areas of my life and decide, do I want to be bothered by this? And then I feel like I have so much more capacity to be a peaceful presence in the world and do do what I do. But we you know, we started this conversation, you were talking about being in a relationship, and I was curious, and then maybe maybe the relationship or maybe other things that you do, and you've given some examples about driving? How, how is this work that you did you know, recovering yourself? How is it currently being informed? And maybe in the relationship that you're just in? How is it informing your current life? Like, why is it how is it different now than maybe it would have been before you are on this journey of recovering yourself? Well, even so, you know, it's interesting, like, we got together for like, a month in October, and we were, you know, it was, she's in New York, here in Chicago. And, and so there's a there's a distance, and we only met, like we met, you know, and we met and my heart just opened, right when we were it was just we talked online, you know, through an app, and it was just as soon as we connected my heart open. And I knew that I had to pay attention, right? This is like the universe, just saying, Pay attention here. Because that does not happen very often in my life. And, and I don't know, if I didn't do that work, I would have been able to respond properly, right. And then we were together for a month and there was some there were there were a number of things that we that came up that we both had to then go work on. And she she and I separated for about six months. And during that time, I didn't know that we would ever get back together or anything. And I just went about my business. I was just like, okay, these are the things that hurt me. What I saw in this, I was like, Oh, she can't receive my love. So where am I am not able to receive love. And that because it's not about her right? Like she is just showing me myself and the story that I make up that has nothing to do with her. Right. So so that was the story I made up was that she can't receive my love. And then I was like, where can't I receive my love? And then I actually I called all of my exes and I was like, Can you recall the time where I received your love? Can you recall a time where I received your love and even even you close friends of mine, and none of them could. Not that they couldn't, I'm sure they could. But when I asked the question, the answer was clear that I had problems receiving. So then I did a number of things to exercise that, so that I would be able to receive. And, you know, it's regard regardless of what she does, it's my experience we're talking about. So there's only one experience that I can speak of. Right. So when I was prepared in my life to receive love, we started talking again, you know, that wasn't even under my control, like she reached out to me. And then from there, we started building a relationship. And so we've been together for the last three months, and it's been, you know, it's a, it's a journey, because we're both doing this work, we're both doing this work. And so it isn't that I don't get triggered. But my triggers are not her responsibility, and her triggers are not mine. So she gets upset at me, she gets to look at herself. I don't get upset, um, what I recognize right away that, like, I'm not upset at her. I'm upset because I'm letting myself down somewhere. So how can I? How can I better voice myself, and how can I better put myself in a position to be here now, with the love that I have for this person, you know, without bumping up against my own shit, you know, and so, and that is a day to day struggle, like, I'm not responsible for, right. And that is, you know, even though like, I want to give, and I want to do all of the things that I do, and I am, you know, like, I'm a quality time and physical touch person, you know, in terms of the, in terms of that whole, like, love language stuff. And by, by doing that, like I want to spend time together, and I want to, I want but like, how that shows up is me actually recognizing that I'm loving myself. And she's showing me something that I haven't been able to identify within myself. And, and that's a constant, it's a constant reminder that she is me. And then I'm here, I'm here offering love to myself. And that's, and that's something that I've incorporated into my life everywhere. You know, I have many, many friends. And, you know, I can even honestly say that I love you. Right? Like, because, because you're in my life, like you automatically receive my love. Right? And, and, of course, my love with Andy is very different than that. But it's, it's not really either, you know? Yeah. I love this. Well, I'm so excited for you, because there's nothing better than receiving love. And I, you know, I love this self reflective question, right? And just when you have that statement towards the other is turning it around and saying, you know, where, where am I frustrating myself? Or where I'm, you know, where am I not? Where am I misunderstanding myself? I think for me, misunderstanding, feeling misunderstood, is a big trigger for me. So it's like, where am I not understanding myself? Or investing myself clearly? Right. And, you know, and I would also, you know, depending on who it is, because maybe that's not the case across the board, it might be a very specific person. And when you say, Well, why did they like so if it, you know, if it turns out to be like, if I look at my partner, and I say, they don't understand me, that could, like, for me, they don't understand me, I go, That's not my problem. Right? Right. Like, because that's not a big deal for me. But if you were in that position, you're like, they don't understand me. They're not listening. Or they're not, you know, like, or they don't want to understand, like, sometimes it's a little, you know, it's a little more than that, right? It could be and then we start getting into like, what is that? You know, like I look at the solar plexus, I say follow it, like look into your solar plexus. And so what is the question that the solar plexus is asking? Like, or what is the statement that the solar plexus is asking? Because, because it'll be really blunt. And, and it'll be like, this sumbitch just said that and he knows that I that I expressed this already. Right? And, and it's like, when that's there, it's like, he knows but he's not listening. He's not paying attention. Like what is the actual phrase that you would use? You know, like, because when you can get into that emotional state. The question is honest. Right, that emotional state that you're talking about the question that gets asked is all you need to take away from that emotional state, everything else is just coming down. Everything else is chemical. But that question that actually initiates the chemical response is the thing that is pointing back to you. And it is not pointing back to you today. Right, it is pointing back to a belief you're carrying, and that you're currently living under the influence of that you probably picked up when you were six. Yeah, yeah. You know, and I don't do child work. I don't I don't even think inner child work is important. I just think understanding, like, I do ask What's your earliest memory? But that's not for inner child work? That's for understanding your influence. Yeah. You know, and that's it. Oh, no. I mean, yeah, I believe, like, we don't have to go back to move forward. Oh, no, not at all. And it's like, in this moment, you can just understand that you are the product of a bunch of beliefs that aren't yours. And good, great, let's just clear the surface and get super curious about them. But that it's interesting, that specific question of like, where am I being missin? Or where am I misunderstanding myself, and I was talking to someone about this earlier. And it and I think it comes around alcohol, because like, there's this identification, and people change their relationship to alcohol, but it's like, this is just what I've seen a lot of stories. It's like, Man, I don't want someone to think that I have a problem, because it's a choice. And you know, all of these things. And it's like, they don't understand. And that's the whole point. And like what you said is like they don't meet the only person that needs to understand is you. Right, and so but to to unravel that there is that question of like, well, what don't I understand what I what don't I fully believe about this experience yet? Where do I have some still some shadow of belief about where I am in relationship to alcohol? Right. And so I think that that, yeah, I think it's easy to say, if you feel super strong about who you are, and in a moment, and you understand it, no, no one no one else ever under it really underneath needs to understand anything. I mean, there's obviously circumstances of like, I'm giving you instructions about building this thing. And if you don't get it, well, yeah, well, then it should this is this. We talked about this a little bit on on recovery yourself podcast, the masculine and the feminine. There's two, there's two aspects to these. Yes. Right. Like so. So the masculine is, I'm going to give you instructions on how to build the house. But you're building the house. So you can see you can celebrate the feminine, right the inside of the house, you don't build the house, you celebrate the walls, you build the house, because you've you can celebrate a place to share love, right? The emptiness, you celebrate the emptiness of the house, because now you can fill it. Right. And that is celebrating the feminine, within the masculine. And so like, yes, you need to be understood. But when you start looking at, you know, like, like, you were saying, like, oh, this could be this? Well, yes, it could be that you're being misunderstood, but maybe it could also be, why is it so important for you to be understood by other people? Right? Are you you know, like, when you start asking yourself? Well, you know, at that point, I would be like, Well, are you a sibling? And are you a second born, and like, I feel those things are true. And maybe it is kind of important for you to be seen, you know, because because, you know, the firstborn, often, you know, if you're traditional in your first in your birth order, I'm a big birth order fan, because I think that, you know, if you're the firstborn, you only have three major relationships, you, your mom, your dad, and then your parents, when you're a second born, you have you your sibling, you your mom, your dad, your sibling, your mom, your sibling, your dad, your parents, and then the group without you and then the group with you, right, like so you have so many more relationships to observe as a second born, that and you're also looking for your place in the pack, you know, usually the firstborn tends to be tends to lean energetically towards in terms of their personality towards head of household because the head of household is the one that is the leader and who would want to be born into a pack and be like, Yeah, I don't want to lead it unless the head of household is of that nature. And so, you know, things can get really kind of dicey once you start getting into, you know, into family life and other things like that. But traditionally, looking at that kind of stuff, it's like well, how You as an individual actually defined this, because how do you define not being heard? That's a big, that's it. There's a big difference between that and being like, I'm not being heard. Right? What is What did those words mean to us specifically? That's why it's about recovering yourself. Because even though you say that everyone can understand it from their own perspective, yours is completely different. Yeah. And if we look at traditional therapy, which I believe is super clumsy, traditional psychotherapy, and psychoanalysis, and, and, and any sort of the soft sciences, very, very clumsy, and they tried to create a masculine framework to deal with these deep feminine, you know, loosey goosey sorts of things that are unique from person to person, and you are not a house that I can just be like, Oh, I'm gonna just fix your plumbing, you know, like, no, that's not and, you know, talk therapy is great if you want to look at it as a market. But if you want to look at it as offering, like, help now, if you want to look at it is offering identity. Like, they want you to embrace your diagnosis more than they want you to embrace yourself. Oh, I love that. Tell me again, what the question is that we ask the solar plexus. Oh, we just as we it's not a question that we ask the solar plexus, the solar plexus, like, makes a statement usually, yeah. And so if we were to look at like, like I was, so I do this recovery yourself workshop, and if digital now, but I was doing this. I was doing it live. And an older woman, like was was doing my workshop. And, you know, it's it's, it's hard to grasp new concepts, you know, like old dog new tricks kind of thing. And I told them during one phase, I was like, Look, I want you to look into your solar plexus. And I want you to tell me what it's saying about this experience that you're having this trigger, you're having one of her triggers was she wasn't getting served at a restaurant very well, like she, she got upset and stuff. And then I said, Okay, well, why why aren't they serving? Just very bluntly. And she was just like, well, it's probably because I'm old data. And then she did everything I asked her not to do, which was Do not be accommodating, do not say, Oh, they might be busy. Do not let them off the hook. Because yes, you want to do those things while you're at the table. But when you're doing self examination work, those people don't exist. Yeah, fuck them. Why should you be nice to them? They pissed you off. Now, in order for you to find out why you're pissed off. And in order to not be pissed off later, you have to be an ass. And go ahead and being asked to these people now that you're done being upset eating your meal, go home and say up. They're not feeding me because they're not serving me because I'm old. All right. Now, let's examine your relationship to aging. Yes. Let's examine how you feel about aging. Let's examine how you feel how scared it probably is to be aging in this society right now. Let's look at that. Because my guess is that's a lot more real than your excuses for them because they're not serving you. It's like, oh, and you know, like, there's two things that I tell him not to do. I tell them do not take responsibility. And do not let them off the hook. So don't say, oh, I need to be more accommodating. Yes, at the table. You need to be more accommodating. But here in my workshop, shut up and be pissed. Yeah. Ask yourself why are you pissed? I'm pissed because they're not serving me. Why aren't they serving me because I'm old. All right now. Shut down that emotion because it's not real. You're afraid of getting older, you have some pissed off and feelings about getting old. Let's look at that, like your old what does that mean to you? Now let's start digging into the into the reality of what you're feeling. They are just they are, you know, as the DAO says 61. You know, he considers those who point out there, his faults, his most benevolent teachers. And if somebody is pointing out your faults, all that means is you got triggered. You got upset. They pointed out your fault. And your fault isn't that they're not serving in your gut. Your story is telling you that you're old, you know, and that's something you have to look at. And if you can't look at that, then and you want to continue looking outward. That's just the manifestation. There's nothing out here. It's all actually happening in here and this is closed off is never your brain has never experienced the tree. Yeah, no idea what a tree looks like. Because it's all coming through your brain. And you don't know if your eyes are right or wrong. We've proven that that like, I mean, even with psychedelics, you can prove that it might not be there. So, recognize that this is just, this is just you having an experience, and it's your experience to have. So what is it? Are you gonna play the victim? You're gonna say it's them, it's them, it's them? Are you gonna recognize that? They don't even exist? Then yeah, okay, that's a hard thing to sort of swallow. But in the end, it's true. Yeah. Yeah, I love this approach, because it really gets to the core of our judgments and conclusions. Write the belief story. And yeah, I love the idea of of letting the solar plexus speak and really just say, because then you're going to know you're going to know. Like, right away. What, Why, and that's powerful. Yeah, everyone needs this work. Everyone needs? I think so. I think so. Well, and I wanted to ask you a little bit about the Dow, but you know, and, and I don't know if this perspective is, is kind of why you work with the Dow, or how that's really informed the work that you do. But when you were talking about, you know, this reflective nature of the outside, just reflecting back at us, I mean, that's kind of how I see all of existence, especially with like the human but but all of it all of it, it's like, just facets of, you know, a crystal or like a broken mirror, right, where it's just these little pieces of, of the hole. And when we can look at that, like you were saying about your relationship, she really is just another facet of me. And there's this reflective nature of me getting getting to look at myself, Is that Is that what the Dow has helped you be able to understand, and why you use your work, why you use that in your work, or why that's really in fire? Yeah, the Dow the Dow came to me at a time that I could use that I could use and you can use anything you can use to buy you a gift that you can use to buy, we can use the you know, the Koran, you can use whatever you want, I it's not. And I'll be the first to say the Dow is out of date, like it was written 600 BCE, like we're, we're well on our way past the third brain, right, we're well on our way into a spirit brand. I think you and I have talked about that. And so and so, you know, the Dow, the Dow and the Bible, and all of these things that were written around that time, so the Old Testament of the Bible was apparently scholars say was written about the same time. So when we start getting writing, we start realizing we're moving to the frontal lobe, because it starts to move into the space of logic. And that means we're moving into the space of the masculine. And we have taken that as far as we can. But the Dow was written sort of reminding people that it is within the heart, that life exists, right and so, so it is reminding us of the feminine of the great feminine. And so the Dow is the it, you know, when we look at so many religions, they look at like the father, but the dowel talks about it as the feminine and it is the the Void is the ultimate feminine and, and anything that has structure is a masculine thing. So the universe is masculine, what is within the universe, like the space is the feminine, then the planet is masculine, what is on the planet, like the energy of the planet is feminine, and then man is born and then that's masculine. Because we have that gut brain, right? We have that guttural sort of, we need a structure in order to survive. And then we move into the heart brain, which is the feminine and then the head brain. And now we're moving out of the head brain into what I referred to as the Spirit brain, and it's going to be our first non physical brain and, and, and as we move into that, we want to go back to understand what we came from, because we're going to be going back to that in a different way. Yeah. And and, and we're going to be going into that with logic as a tool, like survival is a tool. And but before we wrote anything down, we had all of this space, and we were able to enjoy space. But we don't know what that was because we didn't write anything down. Because language as a written form wasn't important until we had logic. And so and so that's the thing, we need both, we need both this masculine and feminine in order to grow and continue learning. And I think as we move into this more feminine experience as humans, we will we, I think, looking back to ancient texts and texts that were written right around, you know, that 800 to 600 BCE, when when writing was first, you know, getting its start, you know, because once writing starts getting written, once we start writing things down, we start living under the influence of the past. Which is why, you know, like, I like, look at look at the world today, like, like, how many books are going to be published this year? What a bunch of garbage? Who cares? Who cares? Why, why, why even right, at this point, why even put anything down? Why? It makes no sense to me whatsoever, you know, like, the amount of the amount of content that's being produced these days is so out, even even mine, like who like, doesn't even matter? Doesn't even matter? It's all? Like, do I believe in my content? Yes. And everybody's gonna find their own way. Yeah, doesn't even matter. Like, you're fine. You're fine with it, you're fine without it, like, and can it help you? Sure. But you're gonna, you're on your own, like, anyway, so I don't, it's all it's all very contradictory. And it's all weird right now, because we still live in this sort of consumer experience. And in the consumer experience, it's like, consume. At what level? Do we have to consume all this garbage? Well, you know, and in being that we've been kind of under the influence of the masculine, you know, again, there's no positive or negative about it, but we're attached to achievement. We're attached structure. So but we're, what a beautiful place we're in that we have the logic, we have the structure, we have the know how, who we can, we're safe, right? Where it's still, like the most peaceful time in human history, more people have expendable resources than ever before. And we just have so much of this information that we we don't, you know, a lot of people just don't see it that way. But we have the information, we have the structure, we have the logic, we're moving into the into the spirit brain, which I love this, that now we can become even maybe more peaceful. Right, and but yeah, I think it's the, the, just the awareness that we are attached to the structure, we are attached to the logic, we are attached to the achievement. And because we're kind of what I see is that we're kind of at a tipping point where there's just like, it's not doing us any more good. And then we move into the spirit brain, and I'll just use your your language for it. So we can continue to evolve, right? And one of my philosophies is, or actually, just like, my kind of ultimate goal in life is to remove story until the only thing left is love. And, you know, my I Hate Story is the worst like, like, you know, even even like in marketing, so just like tell story, tell story. So like, Fuck your story. I can't, I can't, I can't be bothered with his story. The story is what we're under the influence of right? And it's like, well, all of the books, all the content, all of the the self help and self discovery, it's like, we're reaching for something, we're outside of ourselves to be happy, but all we actually have to do is remove what's in the way of it. Right? Like literally, that's the answer. Like if you listen to this podcast you just received like the answer to how to see happy how to be live a more peaceful life. And I think I kind of want to transition into just asking you, you know, then when then why then why share your content, right? Because I'm assuming you enjoy and this is an assumption that you are enjoying your life more maybe living a more peaceful life. Now, having gone through this journey, having recovered yourself then than you were before. I mean, is this is this why you share this awareness that you have, so that other people may have the opportunity to? To awaken to themselves? Yeah, That's a it's a long pause. It's an interesting, it's an interesting question. I think that, you know, it's not happiness, but it's bliss, right? It's this idea that like, no, there, there is nothing here. And, you know, what are you gonna do? You know, what are you going to do with nothing here? You know, it's not, you know, of course, we live in a world where things cost things, right. And that cost is usually financial. And, you know, all too often, we get into a place where the cost of getting a financial return is you're off in your integrity. And often you're, you know, like, I turned to the Dow so often, you know, fame or integrity, which is more important, you know, money or happiness, which is more valuable. I mean, to think about that, just the way that which is more valuable, right, money or happiness. Like, if you just recognize what, what is value for you, you know, like, we can put prices on things, but even when I, when I work with individual clients, like pricing is a weird thing, because there's no value here for anybody other than you. And what is that value for you? And, and so that's an interesting sort of thing. Why I do it, is just because it's what I do. You know, it's, I think, I look at it as like Dharma, if you're familiar with that word, right? It's just like, it just you wake up and you do the thing that you do. And this is what I do. You know, and, you know, I share the Dow on the wisdom app, and I've done my podcast, and I can feel that my podcast is, is wrapping up. And then there are things that okay, well, I can trade this for that. And I can do these things. And as I do them, they feel right, until they don't, and when they don't. Okay, what's next? Yeah, you know, like, my path has been magical. So, you know, addict. Artists started doing a portrait project, a project of portraits and oil pastel that moved me into doing interviews with people, because like doing portraits of people had really great one on one interactive skills. So I started doing interviews for the arts. And that's right when YouTube started. And then, and then I started a production company, and I built a web series, and I did all of these things. And then I was going to do a web series on or I was going to do a feature length documentary on trans people in, in ministry, and then I got MS. And then I had to pay off some debt. And now I am doing the recovery yourself work, because my MS showed me that over the years, I learned something, I learned something very valuable about recovery. And that's not that we're recovering from something, we have a world telling everybody that they're wrong, we have a world telling everybody that they're broken, we have a world that is that is hell bent on giving everybody a diagnosis. And for me, I'm like, you don't have a diagnosis, you do not have mental illness, you are yourself. And maybe society doesn't like that. But that's the same. Like, that's not like, like, what is your experience? And like, can you be respected and loved as you are? Rather than? And yes, of course, we got to keep people safe. And we got to keep people like, you know, we got to we got to make sure that people are able to experience that love of for themselves. But But giving people diagnosis, I hear people proudly running around and saying, I got ADHD and I'm taking meds and it's like, yes, all of those things are great. What are you doing, to love yourself rather than your diagnosis? You know, and, and I think, and I'm very cool with the idea that like, you have a diagnosis, you understand yourself now you can heal. But I think most of the medical industry is like you have a diagnosis. Now you can be medicated. And there's a big difference between understanding yourself and medicating yourself. And what is the reason that you want your diagnosis? Why are you right, like I know people will go doctor to doctor to doctor to doctor trying to find the right diagnosis for them. Yeah, you know, and searching is I think searching is a big thing for people today. People want to search and no interest in finding because finding means you have to stop searching and start are doing. Absolutely, yeah. And I think that this recovering yourself is where I mean it is there is nothing out there, right? It is, it is here. And you know, what I've found under the influence of with, quote unquote recovery, and it's why I call it awakening is there's this, you know, this kind of stigma that we moved from one identity as a drinker or party or whatever it is to being a sober person. Now sobriety as a verb is fine, right? I don't drink, but sobriety as another identity just adds this other thing keeping you away from what what we've been talking about. Save your life. But I mean, I have a quote that says, sobriety is just a beverage choice. Yeah. 100 I don't I don't I don't I don't care what you drink. Who cares what you drink? Yeah, it's what you do with your sobriety. That is going to define your recovery. Yeah. I don't care what you drink, you can you can actually go out and drink. And you know, and I've known, even the woman that I'm dating, when she got sober, she got sober after she started recovering. She started her recovery. Like, as we spoke, she was like, Oh, I started my recovery. Well, before I got sober, and getting sober didn't include any any relapses or anything like that. She just stopped drinking. And it wasn't even that hard for her. Why not? Because it she wasn't addicted. But it's because she understood that she was recovering herself well, before she ever even considered being sober. Yeah. You know, and that's the thing recovery is, you know, and when I talk about what are you recovering to, you're recovering to now who you thought you were, who you think you are, who your identity is, it's recovering, you, recovering you and you were born to be God? Like, you are creating all of this around you. You are God, no, no questions asked now, are you going to recover that? Are you going to just be a pissin? Human Being? Yeah. And that's kind of how I look at it was just like, Yeah, okay, you can you can say, I'm a woman. Alright, well, you've just, you've just removed how much if you if you if you stand by I'm a woman, or I'm a man, or I'm this or I'm that as soon as you say I am and finish that sentence with something you have removed, you have not added anything. And then if you say, Oh, I'm a mom, a mother, okay? Well, now you've removed more. And it's like, there is no word that you can put on the end of I Am, and add anything. If you do, and I don't care, if you feel 1000s, and 1000s, of pages of all the things you are, you're still missing you. And that's why we don't finish that sentence with anything but a period. Well, I think we've given our listeners here today, plenty to contemplate. And I'm so glad that your partner found this whatever recovery she was in, you know, understanding that she was recovering to something because I tell people that all the time, you know, taking your last sip of alcohol isn't the first step. Like it's not about that we're gonna get to that. But we have to start with just just being here, right? Start with uncovering the fact that we will never know we know nothing. And we will never know anything. And that is all just a story. And the only thing left is love. So so if you want your ass handed to you, you can reach tomorrow and John. No, he, I think that the work you're doing is amazing. And I love this, like real talk with love from your heart. And I think it's a it's a conversation that a lot of people aren't willing to have. And I think there's a lot of bravery. Even if you don't necessarily identify in that way. I think it takes a lot of courage to speak the truth. Because I think that it is the truth. So this is why I really wanted to have you on today because I talk about this and I probably talk about it in a roundabout way sometimes. And I think yeah, just sharing this conversation is going to give people a lot of pause and a lot of time to think and open their hearts and open their minds to what's really what this is all really about. So we're going to make sure that everyone knows about your workshop and your podcasts in the work that you do. Is there anything else you'd like to leave with the listeners today? Oh, you know, I there's a there's a thing that I tell my clients all the time so they give you guys a little, little little primer on something to walk away with because it's always nice to have a little something to walk away but I'm not one four. These are 10 things that you can do. I always think that that's that just gets you more addicted. But when you're out living your life if you can I pause randomly here in there a couple times a day and ask yourself Do I like that? I'm doing this. Because, you know, like, if you're, if you're, if you're pacifying in some way, if you're putting yourself in a position that you don't want to do something like, that doesn't mean you have to change it. You know, like, if you're, if you're like, Oh, I'm going to bring, I'm going to pick my friend up from the airport, do I like that? I'm doing this? Well. No, I don't like that I'm doing okay, that's fine. Go pick up your friend from the airport and recognize that you don't like that you're doing it. And then later on, ask yourself, If I don't like that, I'm doing that. What can I do next time. Like, and then you find out that, oh, I can I can speak up for myself. Or I can do this thing, right? Like this is one of was one of the things that I've created to one of the questions that I've created to really be like, can you it? Because? Because we always like Do you like it? Well, like if you're talking about like an Oreo cookie, you know, Oreo, cookies, sugar, and fat and all the things your body likes, right? Of course, you're gonna like an Oreo cookie. But do you like that you're eating it? It's a big, huge question. It's very, very different. You know, maybe you like that you're eating the first one. But now they're treating your third, do you like that you're doing this? And once you ask that question, you can actually figure out, you know, like, actually, no, I don't like them doing this. Okay? Doesn't mean you have to stop. But you can add awareness in that way. Very simple little tool to just adding a little bit of awareness to your day. And if you can just ask, Do I like that? I'm doing this. Yeah, it's, it's a lot different than do I like this. I really love that distinction. What I when I when you say that, to me, what it brings into me is, is a maturity is a willingness to just be really frank and honest with ourselves, because it's the things someone told me it said this to me recently. It's the things that we say to ourselves by ourself that have the biggest impact. So let's just spend the time being honest and inquiring because you're the only one in there that's going to judge you. So you might as well pull out all the all the stops, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that. And thank you, everyone for for your presence today. And Martin, John, thank you so much for your light and your contribution to the world. It means a lot. Oh, it's my pleasure. I'm really glad to be here. Imagine taking the podcast every week to the next level, with achievable goals and an action plan tailored specifically to your needs. Finding personalized support is how you gain control of your destiny. And my private one on one coaching program. Fast Track to freedom from alcohol, you get your own personal cheerleader. That's me every week helping you get clear, stay curious and committed to what matters most versus resigning again and again to your habitual patterns. Every big change starts with one Next Step. Schedule a complimentary call with the link in the show notes or on my website Mary Wagstaff coach.com to get a new perspective on an old habit