Meet my client Jaclyn who is an example of what it truly means to go Beyond Alcohol.
You don’t want to miss this episode!
You will learn exactly what you need to do to end the confusion around alcohol and the exact steps to take to go beyond the moderation story.
Transform your relationship with alcohol by focusing on yourself. Discover how to fulfill your needs without alcohol's help. Understand your body's signals, leverage your emotions, and expand your desires for real, lasting pleasure.
Join "The Naturally Sober Woman" self-study course, where you'll learn everything I teach my clients in a compact, affordable, lifetime access package.
Awakened sobriety! Discover how to fulfill your needs without alcohol's help, labels or missing out! Expand your desires for real, lasting pleasure.
Join The Awakened Sobriety Self Study Course, where you'll learn everything I teach my clients in a compact, affordable, lifetime access package.
Meet my client Jaclyn who is an example of what it truly means to go Beyond Alcohol.
You don’t want to miss this episode!
You will learn exactly what you need to do to end the confusion around alcohol and the exact steps to take to go beyond the moderation story.
Transform your relationship with alcohol by focusing on yourself. Discover how to fulfill your needs without alcohol's help. Understand your body's signals, leverage your emotions, and expand your desires for real, lasting pleasure.
Join "The Naturally Sober Woman" self-study course, where you'll learn everything I teach my clients in a compact, affordable, lifetime access package.
Awakened sobriety! Discover how to fulfill your needs without alcohol's help, labels or missing out! Expand your desires for real, lasting pleasure.
Join The Awakened Sobriety Self Study Course, where you'll learn everything I teach my clients in a compact, affordable, lifetime access package.
Like my advice would be what do you want for yourself, when do you wanna see yourself and what is the next loving choice you can make to honor that and take a step in that direction and let that be kind of your, perhaps your guide for decisions as you go. What's the next loving choice? Hmm?
Speaker 2:Do you ever feel like you're out growing alcohol, that you are longing for a deeper connection to life? If alcohol is keeping you playing small and feels like the one area you just can't figure out, you are in the right place. Hi, my name is Mary Wagstaff. I'm a holistic alcohol coach who ended a 20 year relationship to alcohol without labels, counting days or ever making excuses. Now I help powerful women just like you eliminate their desire to drink on their own terms. In this podcast, we will explore the revolutionary approach of my proven five shifts process that gets alcohol out of your way by breaking all of the rules and the profound experience that it is to rediscover who you are on the other side of alcohol. I am so thrilled to be your guide. Welcome to your journey of awakening. Welcome back to the show. My beautiful listeners, thank you so much for being here for another episode. You are in for such a treat today. Our guest has not only inspired me, but really changed the way that I show up in so many ways in my coaching relationships. She has a client that I have been working with for a while now, and we have had a lot of time to really unpack the process of what it means to go beyond alcohol from so many different angles. So welcome to the show, jacqueline.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks so much. I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 2:Yes, I would love to start to just let the listeners know in this moment, in this current timeline, that you're in right now what feels like the most magical or enjoyable thing about your life, that you're doing.
Speaker 1:that's just for you, I would say, the most magical thing that I'm doing now are things that are for me. So I guess you know really viewing every day as mine and an opportunity and to spend that time intentionally, like whether it's through yoga or spending time with my kids. And you know, I work and I work full-time, but even that I have stopped being a chore. And if something starts to feel like a chore, I maybe put in the thought and kind of reevaluate you know, is this something I want to do? Is this something I need to do today? And so just every day kind of feels a little exciting.
Speaker 2:That is such a great perspective. There's never too much. You know, it's like. This is for me Like you can never feel that way enough in life. So, wow, I love that. Thank you for starting with that. If you would, I would love to just hear a little bit and I know a lot about this, but a little bit about your journey, your alcohol journey, how things started and you know, kind of working up to the time that we started working together.
Speaker 1:So I would say, in 2016 was right after my divorce, and that was a kind of a big shift, kind of a blow to my identity. Like how do I go from being a full-time mom to now not having my kids 50% of the time and kind of not knowing what to do with that time? And dating and socializing with other women A lot of that revolved. You know, alcohol was a big part of that, and then I had also had weight loss surgery the year before and didn't realize that would really dramatically change how my body processed alcohol. So I think, kind of those two things together, I kind of maybe started to get some feedback from family. Like I got letters from my parents in 2016 kind of saying, hey, we think you've got, you know we love you and we think this is a problem that you maybe should look at Kind of over the next couple of years. Like I did the 90 AA meetings in 90 days and then in 2020, with COVID when the kids when we got the announcement that the kids weren't going back to school, I just remember being in my car and hearing that and being just kind of an ultimate low in terms of I can't all the things. Like I cannot educate my kids, I cannot keep them from having conflict in my house, I can't manage my legal practice, you know so just floods of sort of overwhelm, anxiety, feeling like there's no way I was going to be able to do all of this, and my relationship with alcohol at that point was kind of on and off. And even when I was kind of off, the analogy I use is white-knuckling it right, like I always kind of wanted it but was able to, like through willpower, basically avoid it. But on that day I kind of started binge drinking around the clock and did that for 10 or 12 days and went to inpatient treatment and then after that right, kind of maintained some periods of sobriety and then, in late 2021, learned about use of plant medicine and specifically psychedelics and the successes that we were seeing specific to addiction, read some of the peer-reviewed articles from Johns Hopkins and UCLA, and ended up going to Mexico for treatment and having no idea that that would sort of be like a real spiritual awakening for me. In 23, I started working with you and so I really feel like it was the work with the plant medicine that sort of brought a lot of awareness into, like what it means to be human, what my role is. It brought up a lot of, I don't know, just sort of inner knowing, but then also questions related to that. And then I feel like the work that you and I have done together has kind of been like an integration process of well, what is that? If it's true we're like empowered beings, then what does that mean to my decision-making process? Or what does that look like If my feelings are my body's way of sending me information? How do I receive that, how do I make space for that, how do I interpret those messages and what to do with them? So that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and it's such. Oh, I have so much to say about it, but it sounds so. It sounds like before the divorce, alcohol wasn't a huge part of your life.
Speaker 1:You know it was, but it was in a way that I wouldn't feel like is appropriate today. It still wouldn't feel good for me to go back to that, but it was in a way that is socially acceptable and I'm a lawyer and it's definitely a way that was that is socially acceptable within the legal community right, where you kind of work hard, play hard and as long as your you know your kids are getting to school and your work's getting done, we don't care if you binge drink on the weekends or whenever. So I don't know that I've ever had like a healthy relationship with alcohol, but I would say it became unmanageable after my divorce.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which is so fascinating now, fascinating to look in retrospect of, like it was socially acceptable but like, how do you feel about it now? Right, you know, yeah, I mean it's really interesting. So it's like going into even though it wasn't manageable and you were, it was, you know, becoming it sounds like you weren't able to do those things the get to work, you know, if there's this, these lengths of binge drinking and so on and so forth, but you're going into it also with the beliefs of the way it was before was acceptable. So there's this kind of, you know, like comparison to which is under the surface, of so many people that are trying to get alcohol out of their way. And I think, coming at it from like more of a quote, unquote problem perspective, you know there's like okay, there's this little bit more of a need because you know your survival in so many ways is at stake and you know you're concerned about it's, like you can't drink all day, every day, and get done what you need to get done. But I think even having that's like where the white knuckling can come in too, because there's this comparison potentially of can I just get back to maintaining it in a different way? Did you have thoughts?
Speaker 1:like that. Oh, all the time. You know I did the stuff that I think a lot of people do like try to set rules for my drinking, and I know you and I have talked about initially in our work together. The days or the times that were hardest for me were when I had a break in my calendar. Right, Because that would be an opportunity to maybe drink in a quote unquote socially acceptable way. Right, when I have this break in my calendar. So, even though it may not be super healthy for my body, but this idea of it was very other focused, right, Like, forget about what I'm putting into my body or whether it's good for me, but can I do this in a way that is okay and that it doesn't impact other people in a negative way?
Speaker 2:Right, so the focus was more outward than inward, and what is the result of this going to be for me on the other side of it?
Speaker 1:Right, and this idea about, well, there's a good way or a healthy way to do this, and alcohol is still, I think, all the things that you talk about myths I know on your website and I think I still sort of bought into those things that are just kind of, in really subtle ways, ingrained into us, like we use alcohol to celebrate or like when we're having a bad day or to unwind, and yeah, I don't know if that makes sense, but I feel like that was a lot to sort of unpack and process and I've gotten to a place where I feel differently about all those things.
Speaker 2:Hmm, so what do you, what would you say? Because you talked about having this plant medicine experience where. So the way that you had been trying to quit or, you know, it sounds like more like moderate right was creating all these rules to make it socially acceptable. But what was? Let me backtrack. But what was? What was the real problem? What was the real problem? Because it wasn't the moderation.
Speaker 1:The real problem was Living in a land that was fictional. Right, if I really take a step back and frame alcohol in a neutral way and just ask myself, you know, like, what is my value system? And even, I guess, before I get to that point, like, what does, what does alcohol do for me and is it beneficial? And really being, I guess, unattached to either answer and maybe there are things that are in the pro column and then identifying all the maybe negatives, and then I'm sort of asking myself like, well, if one of the pros is being able to embrace something like sexuality with the use of alcohol, do I need that? Can I be a sexual being and a sexual person without that? It's gone from being external focused to forget about this garbage that I'm hearing from everyone else. And what do I know about alcohol and how it impacts me personally when I put it into my body? And then looking at those facts and comparing it to sort of my value system and then just really trying to make educated choices, whether it's about alcohol or anything else, do I want to create space for this in my life? Is it serving me? Is it, you know, picking me to a higher vibrational level, or is it the opposite, or is it neutral? And looking at it that way allowed me to make a lot of shifts and how I thought about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it was. It's kind of like before you know your plant medicine experience. You're trying to solve a problem that was never really in alignment with the truth, in some way Like the truth of who you wanted to be right. You were trying to solve the problem based on an external construct, a social stigma or something you know, a belief that you know you and probably a lot of people have bought into, or just because I so much believe, especially the work that we do here in a holistic way, is we're not only and I don't use the term recovery we talk about remembering or reconnecting. Right, it's like that. We are essentially, though, recovering from not just alcohol, but all of the reasons that we're drinking in the first place, because it's living up to these ideas that are kind of go against that kind of that go against the nature of who we are right In so many ways.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that that you said that, because I really feel like that's really been the work for me through our process together. You know, sometimes we use the word alcohol and check in on specifically how, how I'm doing with alcohol or a report back on that. But really it's about I don't know. Let's kind of like unveiling or uncovering like who am I and how do I express myself and fit in different systems whether it's my family system at home or the legal system in a way that feels good to me. And if it doesn't, or there isn't a way to do that, what are my choices? And maybe how do I do something differently or in a different system?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. And it's so huge because when you're at a pivotal point, you know, going through your divorce, you had said something like the self identity. So when, at any point, this is kind of the journey of a rite of passage, when we go from one space, one identity to another, which a marriage is a rite of passage in its own way. So leaving a marriage is also a rite of passage, because you are shifting identity, we become, we come into this liminal space and because our culture is pretty void of spiritual connection or spiritual alignment as a value, that it's like the identity that you maybe even had before, that was also based on you know, these other ways of being, you know. So it's like okay, I'm leaving this one space, I'm in this liminal space and alcohol is the only thing that I even have to like, help me move through it. It's like literally the only tool that our culture in so many ways has given us. So, yeah, it makes sense, yeah, total sense, and then, and then it's addictive right on top of it. Then it's addictive and the body wants more of it and craves more of it, and then that intersection of belief and behavior that can become can take you down a spiral pretty quickly. So tell me a little bit about how you found plant medicine and what your like the thought you had when you said yes to going on your first retreat. I don't know if I know the story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm glad you asked that. So I had actually just gotten back from sort of a second round of inpatient treatment. That was a little bit shorter, I think I went for somewhere between two and three weeks and I've been back for a month and had already relapsed. It was back in a period of sobriety, but anyway, it was just kind of like 11 pm on a weeknight and I still had some laundry to get through and I wanted to throw something on TV that was like moderately interesting and kind of like a mom a laundry folding it's late kind of way, but also not too stimulating. So I found this documentary on Netflix called Fantastic Fun Guy, having no idea that the second half of the documentary was going to focus on research and effects of psilocybin and psychedelic mushrooms, and I remember like I was so serious because I ended up staying up late and looking at the peer review materials that I just talked about with Johns Hopkins and UCLA and I had found out, after investing all the time, money, time away from my family to go to inpatient treatment, that, depending what studies you look at, it's basically like between 18 and 25% effective for people like a year later. And then, on the flip side. The research demonstrated that use of psychedelics was more like 70% effective. And so I just really felt betrayed, I guess, kind of like by the government, by the systems, like why are these things that are really helping people illegal? And then the things that I can access, right, that I'm supposed to go to, that my insurance pays for, that everyone kind of pushes that's the right or traditional path. Like it's kind of garbage, it doesn't work for most people. And I will tell you, I looked at it from like a really clinical perspective. You know, like reading Wikipedia articles on, like what is ayahuasca and it's like a hallucinogenic. And so I remember thinking like all right, whatever it is, whatever experience I have, it's going to be temporary. So if it's painful or difficult, right, like you know, it's like you know it's like a very, very difficult, very difficult, very difficult. And so if it's painful or difficult, right like I'll get through that and all I care about is is it going to kind of like remove or alleviate this overwhelming like burden of alcohol that I just was so stuck in and couldn't get out of? Yeah, in fact I remember after I made the decision to pursue it and I was trying to figure out where to go Part of I chose the place that I did was specifically because it looked more clinical. Like when I was looking at places where, if it was like if there was drumming or like stand on the beach, my thoughts were yeah, no, no, like that's not where. Where I was at the time like as very much a lawyer going to do a medical, scientifically established thing.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, I don't know. So amazing. But what's amazing too is that you as much as you're and I'm like what do you think about the drumming?
Speaker 1:now, right and now, and you know this and you can laugh about it because we've worked together for almost a year. So now you know that. You know I come home and I've got music playing in the kitchen. That is very, I don't know, like an indigenous or ceremonial, and I burn incense in my house and have other like embodiment practices and meditate and I love all that. Like that's kind of the real stuff in my life. Now it's not just the fluff, so there's been a real switch. Like the lawyering stuff is the stuff I kind of have to do to pay my bills and I get to help people, but the real, the good stuff is the self-development and the growth and tapping into spirituality. But yeah, my kids definitely have like that. They walk in and they're just like, oh my gosh, you're such a hippie, and that's okay, we've, I've integrated that and I don't mind me and a hippie, it's kind of cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, me too. They'll be joining you soon enough. They have to think that way at this age. But there was still something inside of you that received that message from that documentary, because there are people that would watch that and just be like what you know. So because there's so much their beliefs are so strong in the opposite direction that it wouldn't, even even if they were curious, still wouldn't have considered it. And I so. For me, because I really believe in you know our journeys being divinely guided in so many ways, it was just like there was something in that message and it hit and tapped into something inside of you, even if it felt like a last ditch effort, because you were still willing to go and try it. So that's awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I definitely feel that way about it now and now. You know you haven't asked about this, but I'll volunteer it anyway. I see the struggle with alcohol, as you know, being a really important part of my life path and journey and I won't get too much in it. But you know, having been there in like that shadow space, is it a really amazing teacher in terms of where I want to be and appreciating things that I maybe wouldn't have appreciated or explored if I hadn't gone through all that, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:It makes 100% sense. I feel the same way and I express that on the show too. I think it's. I'm so glad because I might not have asked that question. So I'm so glad you brought that forth, because I think that that's really the message that I want to convey that there is an opportunity available beyond alcohol, and we'll never know if you would have received what you would have received now without it, but it doesn't matter. I believe that. No, I believe 100% that you and I and all the other women that I've worked with wouldn't, without the stark contrast and that polarity sometimes and having to go into the shadow. It's like the deeper into the shadow we go, the more we get to ascend and the higher we rise, and you can't have the ascent without the descent. Unfortunately, it just doesn't work. So you know, but then, doing it from a place where now, the more of a willingness to be like oh, what don't I know right Now, on the other side of it, there's more of a willingness to explore, can you talk to me a little bit about cause you're not the only woman that I've worked with that has gone through traditional rehabilitation or 12 step model what was your belief then Like when you were in the process of using that system and those tools, like what did you think about, kind of what was available to you or the opportunity for the outcome, what stands out for you when you think about that?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I do want to say that I think you know some of those programs have helped a lot of people and so I don't want to minimize that for others. For me personally, it really just didn't resonate at all. I would say the vast majority of it it felt very there was a lot of shame, a lot of shame in saying you know, hey, I'm Jacqueline, I'm an alcoholic. Remember thinking like I don't want to focus on that every day and you know I'm so many other things, like I'm Jacqueline and I'm smart and funny and compassionate. Sometimes I have a bad day. And then also I remember thinking also, if it doesn't resonate for me, I must be doing it wrong. What's wrong with me, that I can't get it? And I also feel like, whether it's intentional or unintentional or was unique to me, but at least my experience was that was part of the messaging right, that denial it ain't just a river in Egypt, you know. So if, like, you're not getting something or you're not doing it like, well, you're in denial and you got to get to more meetings and I also I love that I remember when I was looking for places to go for help, one of the things that stood out to me about the information that you have available online was this notion of starting to live, like stop drinking and start living? Because I remember thinking when I was in AA meetings, sometimes like I was sitting there listening to people, sometimes when they share about stories with alcohol, it was almost framing it as like a glory day sharing and that, like you know, and this message that there's something different about people who struggle with addiction, like I think in the AA communities I was part of, they called people who can drink right, the air quotes normally normies, and so we're like the flip side of that coin is everyone else is abnormal.
Speaker 2:No, it's perfect and I've expressed this so many times. Whatever works for someone and they're getting help and they're starting the journey, absolutely. I was just reflecting on this myself today that you know I and something I wanted to kind of share about my time was specifically with Jacqueline was, you know, I have had my personal experience. I kind of created this formula, this system of the five shifts, and we've used that. We've used the curiosity and compassion and all of it. But there was something different about watching you on your journey that really helped me take a step back to trust that we are all on our journeys more and that I keep my biggest role is to hold the belief and the space for you that of course, we're gonna get to where we need to go and it doesn't need to look like anything because you had such a willingness and we were always exploring to what was working, where the little shifts were happening, even if it wasn't just about not drinking, right, and so when we start the meeting but anyway I was saying talking to Matthew, I was like, yeah, before I ever started doing this work, I mean it was definitely a full. I mean it was 20 years of wanting to quit drinking essentially, but it was like a full year of sober curiosity where I was drinking, but I was doing it from like a different lens a little bit. So but I always say we do not shame any source of help, it's just knowing. I just think this information of understanding that the story that the term alcoholic tells isn't the story that you have to tell because it's not your story right, there is a story behind these labels.
Speaker 1:So yeah, and thank you for well. Um, yeah, I guess thank you for being open to doing the sort of non-traditional or even different for your practice approach for me that is what I started to say about AA is. I kind of felt like when I was going there like why am I spending an hour of my life every day talking about alcohol? Isn't it better for me if I go garden or do yoga or read something empowering or inspiring or I'm just outside, and I felt like the more our work together helped me to identify how I want to live and then go embody that the things that are unhealthy did like alcohol, just kind of fall off. There's not really space for it anymore and I don't want it anymore and then continue to right, like I kind of think Diet Coke is probably garbage and not good for my body, so I need to have a little bit of a shift there. So I don't. One of the things that I think is like kind of magic about doing it that way and kind of reclaiming your life is I feel like I've learned skills that I can apply to anything, any behavior that isn't serving me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and that's what the five shifts are all about. It's really about I. You know, one of the little things I say probably website is your relationship to alcohol ends when you begin a new relationship to yourself, because it's the decisions that you're making about everything in the way that you're doing it. If you're just not drinking, it's always going to. In my opinion, it will always be a struggle. You're going to always want alcohol if alcohol is at the center of change. But when we put you at the center of change and we look at every area of your life which we did then it's like, okay, yeah, and then it's like, oh, is this choice even in alignment? And then alcohol just kind of becomes unimportant because you're being, you're fulfilling these other needs inside of you where there was once a lack, you know because. So how does it feel? Instead of starting, you know, our conversation with what's not working right, it's like we start our conversations with all the things that are working.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I've noticed just you know, so you modeled that for me, starting for, like, what are we celebrating today? What's going well? And I've noticed so many shifts in terms of, like, my internal conversations with myself, like my internal voice is so much kinder than it used to be and frames things in the positive. So, instead of saying, like you know, like you over, always oversleep, blah, blah, blah in my head, I don't know, like if I'm still in bed and it's five minutes after my alarm went off, then if I catch myself, now, if I start to go there, and then the more I catch myself, the more just my internal voices changed to okay, we plan to get up five minutes ago, so what are we doing here? It's time to make a decision, like, if that makes sense and that's so, first that changed for me and my relationship to myself, and then it's changed my relationship with my kids, it's changed my relationship with my colleagues, it's changed my relationship with my friends, and then I've noticed that, like, even with my kids, I noticed them embodying that now and how much kinder they are to themselves and just the energy in our household is so much happier and it's positive and it feels really good, and it feels good to not only heal for myself but then to be part of like modeling that and helping other people also be positive. It's like kind of shifting. Anyway, I think you know what I'm saying. It feels good.
Speaker 2:It's so good. It really is just this ripple impact into every area of life, which then in turn, makes the desire or the need to drink or to have that like you know, like I can't handle it moment, or nothing's working. It's like, well, if you don't feel that way about all these other areas of your life, if we look at all the reasons why they are working choices, then the need to drink also isn't there. It's kind of working from the circumstances on the outside, in, and what are your beliefs about everything? And you've just done, you've been, you know, so calm really and like having this kind of removed perspective, to just kind of to the willingness to look at it, the willingness to look at it from outside of your conditioned beliefs or the way you had once looked at it before. So it's so, it's so brilliant. And one of the things that I know people want to know because this is really challenging is like the real embodied aspect of what happens when you have the desire to drink. What was your process like when you, you know, when there was a habitual urge or craving that showed up for you? How did you? What was the process like of moving through that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I would say that that's a great question and if the answer to that is one that changed for me depending where I was sort of in my remembering journey. So initially, like in those first like couple weeks, or where it was really struggling, like I'd have two or three weeks alcohol free and then I would choose to drink and I was kind of in that pattern for a while. But so that was like an every day right, like every day five o'clock would roll around and I'd have to have that internal, those internal conversations. Some of the strategies I initially used were, you know, telling myself like I don't have to make this decision, for it doesn't have to be a forever decision. The question is just, am I going to drink right now? And right now I'm feeling like I don't want to because, like I kind of want to right, like I want the whatever I feel like I might get from it, like the stress relief or the letdown or the celebration. But I also feel like, you know, I'm going to be hungover tomorrow. I don't want that and I know that just putting this into my body is going to make me want it more, because that's just the nature of alcohol and the addictive qualities that you touched on. So initially it was kind of like having a I guess, an intentional pause, like, okay, I'm just going to pause, I'm not going to like run to the liquor store and then what am I going to do instead? So if I might take a bath, I might go for a walk, I might. I might actually even leave my house. Like in kind of the early days I'd ask my mom if I could spend the night at her house and just kind of get away from the space where I used to drink. I've noticed that I don't even think about it every day anymore. There is no five o'clock alarm in my head anymore that says we have to make a decision. You know, now it might be. I haven't had that feeling in that I want to drink in months. I might notice other people drinking or like at my office Christmas party, everybody drank and I'd say half the people there got that pretty intoxicated. But I didn't feel like I was missing out. I didn't feel like that was something I wanted. I didn't question whether or not I wanted to have a drink.
Speaker 2:And I think I know the answer to this, but I think it might be important for people to know, and thank you for sharing that process with me, that it and with us for knowing that, yeah, there's an initial process of having to kind of put some more effin, you know, and having these questions asked in this curiosity and ways of being compassionate with yourself. So, when you were having kind of like sober and non sober times before we were working together, when you were, you know, in going to 12 step or rehab, and then when we started working together and you had well, one, I don't think that the periods were as long, and that's one thing I think I know correctly. Right, I was just wondering what the difference was in those that maybe helped you get over the hump to where now you literally don't want You're not even thinking about alcohol- that sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think the biggest shift for me and the thing that was really a game changer and thank you so much because you spent so much time with me on this was getting over the shame piece and that sounds there's a difference between knowing in your head Like well, I was going to say there's a difference between knowing something in your head logically and feeling it. So I think initially, when we started our work together, I still had a lot of shame about feeling bad, that I had gone to rehab, that I was, you know, kind of like a screw up and why couldn't I kick this? There's got to be something wrong with me. I feel like I still kind of carried that and then I then I ended up kind of struggling with like oh no, like what's going to happen? If I'm, you know, alcohol free, then what does that mean for me? Does that mean like more, I don't know. It just kind of felt like this scary thing, that like if I get better, if I overcome this, you know, then what? What does that look like? Or An that will. So I really feel like, through a lot of different you know question practices that you modeled for me, that I then started having internal conversations with myself about, or journaling, I was kind of able to get under out from that shame piece and really just look at okay, this is just a thing. Just like you know, I don't really feel shame about drinking Diet Coke. I feel like it's not really great for me and I should probably make a different decision, but it doesn't carry, it's not bigger than that. And for alcohol, it is because of these social perspectives and the stigma that goes with it. And so I really feel like that was the biggest shift was just letting go of that. That. It is just a thing that I did to right, to kind of cope for different reasons, and I don't have to make it bigger than that. The decision I have to make today is whether I think that putting that substance into my body is going to be a beneficial choice or not, from kind of a place of evidence-based neutrality. And then what is my answer? And am I going to make that choice? And that was the biggest shift. And then from there it was like I feel like it took us a lot of months at least for me to kind of get to that place and believe it, and then, once I did, everything just happened really quickly in terms of kind of everything falling off.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think that that was your biggest breakthrough moment and it's like everyone has a thing, a big sticky point that when they get through it, and so it's like the word literally these are the words that Jacqueline would say to herself. I'm like this is what it is. I can decide what I want to do with this information that I had to drink yesterday, or that I had a few, and I think that it's the shame right the conversation that you used to have that would perpetuate more days of drinking. Yeah, versus yeah, right, versus me also. And that is shift number two. It's called the compassionate witness, in case anyone wants to know where we, you know where it's like OK, I know, I know what this is, I know what I'm doing. Do I want to give it more weight than it deserves? Because, like right now, one of my favorite thoughts and I might have another podcast episode is I can turn this around, right, I can let the effects of alcohol take me down and the thoughts about it take another day away from me. Or I can turn this around, and it's a little bit harder when your dopamine levels are lower, for sure, but you can. I love what you said evidence-based neutrality, like that's so good, like it can just it doesn't have to be like I'm great, you know whatever, but it can just be neutral where. Ok, I see that here's the evidence, let me evaluate it. And that is something that you know Jacqueline and I would do also. When it was, she would have two or three weeks alcohol-free and then she would have a day of drinking and we would talk about it. We get to actually retrospectively evaluate OK, what were the circumstances? Right, and something that you and I worked on a lot also was your cyclical living, and I could probably continue to talk. We could talk seriously for another hour about all the work that we did. But briefly, maybe we can kind of wrap up with this Tell us a little bit about the impact of, because I know you worked on this a lot and it had a big impact, like the impact of understanding your own personal cycles and rhythms on your journey.
Speaker 1:That's been huge. And through our work together, for the first time in my life I started charting my cycle and then also charted the full one new moon. But what I learned about my body in that process is that maybe five days before I start my period I'm just a little more emotionally raw and things feel bigger for me than maybe they do other days of the month. And so just having that awareness, you know, I can kind of make a note of that on my calendar of kind of where I think it's going to fall and then it just doesn't have to mean more than that, right, and maybe it can be a little intentional about not scheduling my days so that they're jam packed. Talking with someone where I know it's going to be maybe a difficult conversation, not doing it on that day Immediately after my cycle, it's going to be really high energy and to sort of tap into that. So it kind of goes circles back to that kind of gathering information and then working with it instead of pretending that reality is different from what it is. And then the only other thing that I wanted to say that I wish I had said before and I wrote it down is I feel like through our work together I've learned how to listen to my body. And at first that was just having a feeling come up and instead of where old Jacqueline would have like kind of smashed, that negative or uncomfortable I guess is a better word, that uncomfortable feeling down, and instead of just viewing it as like, oh, I'm feeling the urge to drink, really sitting with it and unpacking it Like what is my body trying to tell me? And I remember the last time you and I talked about that I didn't drink in that instance, but I kind of said that I had the feelings, I listened to my body. You asked what my body was trying to tell me and I said I ended up deciding I think my body was just saying rest Tired, it's time for a break. And your question was like, well, what did you do? And I said I slept. That was so funny because you know, when I was turning to alcohol, that wasn't really giving me what I needed. I was just reaching for kind of the fix. All that really didn't fix anything. And yeah, so it just feels good now to have a feeling come up and not shame it. Sometimes we get tired, whether for whatever reason maybe it's food we're eating, being overextended, or just because that's a place in our cycle where we have less energy. And instead of pretending I am a square pig that needs to fit into a round hole, I just say I am Jacqueline and I am human, and part of being human and its experience is having feelings and emotions and needing things like creating a life that honors that, instead of trying to shove myself into a system that doesn't. Amen, sister.
Speaker 2:That's what it all is is honoring creating a life that honors your humanity. That will probably be the title of the song.
Speaker 1:Now I got chills.
Speaker 2:Yeah, creating a life that honors your humanity. And you know, we could talk more about the feminine and all of the reasons why we have to reexamine this, because the need for alcohol is because we have created a life that doesn't really honor our humanity, and especially through the feminine lens, when there just literally hasn't even been an example of what it looks like to live your life through embodied emotions, embodied expression, like we just it doesn't even really fully exist. It does in our natural world, but in our cultural, societal world. But what I always say is it doesn't really matter why, whether it's intentional or not intentional, you said this before but it's where we are at in our human evolutionary journey now, and I do think that there have been times, you know, where we were more connected with cycles and rhythms as a culture, but now we have other things, we have other tools, we have other resources too. So I believe that this is the next phase of human evolution is is honoring and creating a life that honors our humanity. So thank you so much for being an example of that. If you had any words to our listeners to send off with who are in this journey. At the beginning of this journey, you know, deciding whether or not they want to take action, to get support or or anything. What would you? What would your final words be?
Speaker 1:You know, one of the things that the phrases that we have in my household now is I feel like we used to make decisions that were maybe fear based. But you know, one of the things that the phrases that we have in my household now is I feel like we used to make decisions that were maybe fear based and we're really not. I try not to be afraid of things anymore, or if or if maybe those feelings kind of pop up, work through them and then realize like there's really not really anything to be afraid of, like I'm not even really afraid of death anymore, but that's a whole nother story. So I guess I would ask yourself, like my advice would be what do you want for yourself, where do you want to see yourself and what is the next loving choice you can make? To to honor that and take a step in that direction and let that be kind of your, perhaps your guide for for decisions as you go. What's the next loving choice? Hmm?
Speaker 2:So beautiful. Jacqueline, thank you so much for your presence, for your hard work for making the world a better place to live in and for all of your shining light, and I can't wait to see in the rest of your journey. And thank you to all of our beautiful listeners for being here and just being open to having a new conversation about what it means to be human. The bridge between where you are and where you want to go with alcohol is spiritual alignment. That is what makes my private coaching program so unique and effective. It meets the needs of all parts of you through a feminine lens, so that sobriety can become a sustainable part of your life while alcohol becomes unimportant. Take your commitment to self to the next level by scheduling a private discovery call with me. Follow the link in the show notes to pick the best time that works for you, and I will take care of the rest. I can't wait to connect with you in real life.