Dr. Ralph Ford, chancellor of Penn State Behrend, talks with Sue Daley, director of personal counseling, about improving mental health services for college students.
Dr. Ralph Ford, chancellor of Penn State Behrend, talks with Sue Daley, director of personal counseling, about improving mental health services for college students.
Hi, I'm Dr. Ralph Ford, Chancellor of Penn State Behrend and you are listening to Behrend Talks. My guest today is Sue Daley, the director of personal counseling here at Penn State. Behrend. Welcome to the show, Sue.
Sue Daley:Thank you, Ralph. Thanks for having me.
Dr. Ralph Ford:well for the students. And We'll talk about that. They provide individual confidental counseling, crisis intervention, and referals to our community. In January, after nearly 30 years at Penn State Behrend, Sue is going to retire. And we are going to talk a lot about your career here, your experiences, and what the future holds for you. So welcome to the show. And lets start ... tell us how you ended up at Penn State Behrend.
Sue Daley:Well thank you. I have to say early on that I figured out that for me, people are the best game in town, Ralph. And second to that is food. My father was a captain in the Navy for 25 years, which meant that my mother and my four siblings, and I moved around a lot. And I mean, a lot. One of my sisters was born in Bermuda. So it required adjusting to a lot of new people, a lot of new places, a lot of new environments. And I found that came easy for me. And I took an early and apparently long-lasting interest in the well being of others. I never thought twice about what to do after high school.
Dr. Ralph Ford:Did you? What did you study? I mean, how did you end up? Did you say "I want to go into psychology"? That's what I'm going to do?
Sue Daley:Yes.
Dr. Ralph Ford:You knew that?
Sue Daley:Yep. never wavered.
Dr. Ralph Ford:Well, good for you. Well, so then you knew you wanted to work with people. But why those of the college age?
Sue Daley:Well, that's a good question. Back in the day, the term "crisis", as it's related to human condition outside of the science world, was brand new. And I learned that an individual here in Erie, by the way, I did not know that Erie was on the map. I'd lived in all those places, but Erie wasn't one of them. His name was Dan Hatton. And he had formed an agency called Family Crisis Intervention. And I didn't know what they were doing here. But I found it intriguing enough to come visit him, and he welcomed the visit. And this was in the early 70s. So he invited me to stay a week once I met him and interview for a position. And the agency consisted then of a handful of counselors and a police car unit called 201. By the way, I was 21 when I was interviewed by Dan Hatton, and I said "a job?". I have a bachelor's in psychology. I don't I don't feel qualified for that. And you know what his answer was to that.
Dr. Ralph Ford:If only we could hear that these days.
Sue Daley:His answer was we hire people here, not degrees. So the agency handled only mental health emergencies. So it was a lot of work with homicidal and suicidal and very intense situations. So long story longer, I was hired. And I worked there second shift, 3:00-11:00, for 18 years. Now, at the end of the 18th year there, a woman named Luanne Barton, who was serving here as director of the personal counseling by herself, and had been for seven years, was going to move on. And she asked me if I would fill in for her part time, in the mornings before I went to my second shift job, while the search continued for her replacement. So I did that. And I was encouraged to apply for Luanne's position. And the agency I was working for was morphing in a direction I wasn't particularly interested in. So I applied. And this is how I fell into this amazing opportunity to work with college students.
Dr. Ralph Ford:And you fell in love with Behrend and you stayed.
Sue Daley:I did.
Dr. Ralph Ford:What was Behrend like when you started?
Sue Daley:Quiet. I believe I had your office, Robb. Upstairs in the Glenhill farmhouse is where I did my part-time stint. And I had one office in a rocking chair for my guests. And it was lonely, lonely here. And the kinds of issues that I was seeing coming from a crisis orientation. I wasn't sure if I knew what homesickness meant, but I had to figure these things out. So it was it was a challenging time, but I learned.
Dr. Ralph Ford:I mean, we're going to talk about the very different operation that you are at now, and where it's going in the future. And some of the phenomenal facilities we're creating. But let's stick with your thoughts. Students feel homesick, and we know that, right. So it's a joke, but it's not so easy. A student comes from growing up at home, probably these days, never having a roommate. like they have their own room. Now we put them on a college campus. Expectations change. But what's I really like? What is it that you see underneath?
Sue Daley:Oh, thank you for asking that. When it comes to self-care, and routines with college students, it's sort of an oxymoron. You know what? Self care? What routines?
Dr. Ralph Ford:Students don't think about it. They don't think about it.
Sue Daley:No. In some cases, that's apparent. When students coming to college are required to make a ton of adjustments to the life before they got here. It's no more structure like at home. There's no more being told to brush your teeth, or what time to come in. And many adjust, and many don't. There's just too much temptation, to huddle up and play video games for hours and to eat pizza and french fries every day for lunch. But it does go without saying that this is a highly competitive environment. How smart are you? How good looking are you? What kind of athlete are you? How's sleeping with a stranger for a roommate working out for you? And on and on. There is so much pressure. And you know, this has been actually named by UPenn. And Stanford at Penn UPenn. They call it Penn face. And at Stanford, they call it duck face. So here's what I want you to do, Ralph, is picture a mallard on the bay, floating along very serenely, very beautiful and peaceful. But underneath that duck is paddling like crazy to get to where it's going. And that's what we see in the counseling office hours. Everything's fine with me, everything's fine with me, I'm good, how are you? Good. But underneath is that stuff they bring to the office.
Dr. Ralph Ford:And they don't want to tell others. You don't want to tell others.
Sue Daley:That's a that's a face they want to wear and not show their vulnerability.
Dr. Ralph Ford:So if you look at it today, versus the challenges that they had when you started back in the 90s. What's changed?
Sue Daley:Well, quite a bit. I would say that the earlier issues that I saw when I was part timing, here, were relatively situational disturbances. Like relationship things, the homesickness thing, things that that pass without a lot of emotional turmoil. But now, we are seeing significant issues such as mood disorders, anxiety, depression, you know, around the nation. I think it might be fair to say that we are a nation of very anxious and depressed people, for a myriad of reasons that are out there, mostly in recent years. So I think what we're seeing on this campus is a reflection of what's going on in our larger world. And I'm certain that those issues are showing up in therapy shops, just as they are here at Behrend's personal counseling office.
Dr. Ralph Ford:They are we're going to talk about some of those things like COVID, and the like, the impact that it's had. But there's no question that we're in a mental health crisis in this country. And you see it, but you know, I see it from my viewpoint as well, students showing up they've got a, they've already working with a therapist or medications, a whole lot that we have to look out for. And it's important that we do so these aren't things that we've always been accustomed to working with. But want to step back about social media. And, you know, you talked about the fact that social media and those other pressures feed the I don't look good enough. I'm not smart enough, whatever it may be. And, you know, we can point to a lot of things, video games, social media, they all have positives, but there are a lot of negatives. There are a lot of dark sides to these as well. So let's talk about social media, video games, the impact that these things are having on Well, it's huge. And surprisingly, a number of students. students are getting off of it. And just shutting their stuff off. Because I guess what I'd call it in a on an informal diagnosis would be comparison-itis. Keeping up with the Joneses.
Sue Daley:Oh, oh, and students are smarter than than we think. They're not buying it anymore. I think the biggest thing is TikTock which is fun and real in time. But as far as Facebook, and some of the other social media options, they're not as interested anymore. And I think that is good to hear. I tell them that I've never been on any of that. I don't even have an ATM card. They look at me like I'm crazy. I could throw my phone in the lake. And I might just do that after I retire. They wouldn't be caught dead with that. So they are attached to their devices. But I'm seeing a shift, because their studies right out of Pittsburgh in recent years about how one hour on your computer playing games even even though there's, you know, dopamine and your brains happier, an hour later you have it, you see a real decrease in a sense of well being. And that's depression. So these media sites have consequences for your emotional well being. And I think students are coming around to see that.
Dr. Ralph Ford:Well, that is a good trend. And one we hope continues. And we can all take advice from that. I'll just say, you know, actually, my sons who, as you know, graduated from Behrend, are not on Facebook. One of them is, and the others they don't. It's not not a big part of their lives. So maybe there's a little shift going on. But let's talk about you know... We live in a world now, where crises become national news very quickly. They impact our students, everything from Black Lives Matter, to whatever else is happening in the day. So does this, how did this impact our students directly? And then in turn, do they come to your office? How does that play out?
Sue Daley:Well, yes, I think students, especially up here in higher ed are much more aware of what's going on in the larger world. And we have some very strong student organizations here that pay very close attention to national incidents and in media, and it does filter into the counseling office, in terms of feeling safe. This new stuff that's coming, the hate, it's just in recent years.
Dr. Ralph Ford:This week it's antisemitism.
Sue Daley:Ar a Walmart. I mean, what place is safe? Mass
Dr. Ralph Ford:Let's spend some time talking about COVID, and shootings, I was just looking at that yesterday. 220 people have died this year, in a mass shooting. So it's a scary world out there. And certainly students are concerned about the consequences for the nation. In terms of, you know, being anxious, you know, I've had students tell me that they're not going to shop at Walmart. They're all shopping on Amazon. And I haven't understood that yet. Still good to see the store shelves, but I'm aware that maybe I'm a little concerned about it a little concerned about that impact. its impact. As we know, on mental health, and we were really worried about the disease. But it became apparent in the last year. I will say, you and I knew early on. And I think, you know, in reflection, we saw that a lot of us were raising the flags, but there were so many other things going on. But now it's coming out, and now we know, I can recount stories here that I won't that I in some ways, I thought it was even larger impact than some of the other concerns that we had. But let's talk about COVID. And what did you see? How did you respond throughout the crisis? Let's spend some time on that.
Sue Daley:Yeah, I've just been reflecting on it. You know, it seems like it was a long time ago, in some ways. And in others just yesterday. Well, it was surreal, I would say when the college, you know, decided to close, we skedaddled, didn't we? Like rats on a ship. We were out of here. And it was a creepy little ghost town of a place. And we all had to recreate our offices to be safe, and everything had to be six feet apart. So we moved furniture as a staff and, and prepared ourselves for whenever was going to be, you know, the green light to come back. And the shields that we all put up the plexiglass shields and my goodness. We ordered all those supplies, 1000s of masks and and Purell.
Dr. Ralph Ford:It was crazy.
Sue Daley:Oh my gosh, what was crazier was, some of us at home, not mentioning myself, had no computers. So we had to be issued laptops. And I dread turning mine in because it's a lovely thing. But we all went home with our little issued laptops, and grabbed a list of our clients because we had just transitioned to electronic medical records. And so when we all got home as therapists and set up our little shops at home, we got on email and emailed each and every one of our students. And that's about...well, that's a lot of students. We see 3,000 appointments a year and they responded and our numbers were never higher than during that. I think that people had nothing else to do. So they check in and visit. Half the time, it wasn't therapy, it was what have you eaten. But anyway they, surprisingly, they weren't all comfortable finding privacy in their own homes. So I zoomed with students in cafes, in the corner of little cafes, and in their cars, so that we could have counseling sessions. It was surreal, was a very unusual time. And those that wanted to continue in counseling did in that format.
Dr. Ralph Ford:And what we did learn is that we are social beings, and we like to see each other face to face.
Sue Daley:We are mammals, Ralph, mammals, good mammals, look out for each other, protect each other, support each other yet, we weren't such great mammals during that time.
Dr. Ralph Ford:Well, you know, when when you look at the impact that it has had no so on a daily basis, has the way you delivered counseling changed? Is it partially, you know, remote or face-to-face? I assume that there's been a large change in
Sue Daley:That's a very good question. I really wondered how that? this transition back to school would look. Would students come in? Because hey, how about all the jammie pants that we saw? You know, one guy had a snake on his neck, it's like, "Oh, my God". So how maybe they just want to stay in the comfort of their own homes? Guess what? Just the opposite. They want to see us. Just the opposite. They came right back in. And only those that were concerned about having COVID, or having been exposed to COVID, continued to zoom from their residence halls. But for the most part, they all came back.
Dr. Ralph Ford:Well, you know, that's, of course, consistent with what we're seeing. I mean, we are finishing our semester, we're almost done. We're in finals week right now. And it's been great to have the students back and we know that they learn really well face to face. There are other modalities as they get older, they're more efficient online, like so. It's never a simple black and white answer. But boy, it's been good to be back. How about finals week, right now we're in the middle of finals week, do more students show up this week?
Sue Daley:Well, they're busy. We try and finish up before finals week with our students. But I have been swamped a lot of students who saying goodbye to me, which has been wonderful. So what I'm hearing is, they're doing their best to finish strong. And I asked them what they learned about, what they're going to do differently next semester. Learn to study, learn. I'm talking to people who here we are in the crunch of finals and a group of them just went to Niagara Falls to see the lights on like you what Don't you have work to be doing? How can you do that?
Dr. Ralph Ford:They better have done their work. Now you're bringing up a good point. You know, we hear this consistently from our faculty, and there's a long ways to go, study skills are lost. And it's a serious issue. But the best we can do is just continue to advise them, coach them mentor them. And a lot of cases tell them, you know, your grade will improve when you show up. Showing up is half the game, isn't it?
Sue Daley:Right? It is and you know, this is a very nurturing environment. And students, the biggest problem we see in the office, by the way, is social anxiety. And these are the students who fear the disapproval of others. So going to a professor, right. That's a very difficult thing. But this is what we've been encouraging. And it's like thinking your parents are gonna kill you, when they find out what you did. And, you know, it's not likely that's going to happen. And 9 times out of 10, the parents are supportive and understanding. And the professor's likewise. So you're right. They work with these students, and effort counts. They don't know that you're not home playing video games all day. If you show up and tell them you're struggling and you've gotten tutoring and they will work with you.
Dr. Ralph Ford:Yeah, they really will. Let's talk about the stigma of mental health. My guess is that 30 years ago, when you were in this very building that we sit in right now, people were even concerned about being seen coming to see you. Oh, yeah. And I know it still remains an issue but I think it's changed.
Sue Daley:Oh, definitely. You know, students are sometimes proud to say, my therapist, this my psychiatrist. It's a lot easier to share that information than it ever was. And I'm very glad you know that. Mental health means different things to different people. It doesn't necessarily mean face-to-face, one-on-one counseling or to go therapist. It encompasses a real body and mind integration. COVID had made this a little difficult for us but again, many of our students are socially anxious and It makes it difficult to connect with others. And so again, what I like to say is the answer to depression is connection. And I envision a lot of opportunities will abound for students in the new Erie Hall, personal counseling, office. We're scheduling and planning to schedule drop in hours for things like learning how to meditate, yoga 101, values of a plant based diet, massage. I just got a brand new massage chair yesterday. Activities in a group setting to tap into creativity, body movement, fun classes, forest bathing, drumming circles. So there's a lot coming down the pike to dismantle this stigma. This is about connecting, it doesn't mean you're crazy. Or you're disordered in some way. Or have psychiatric issues. Many of our students are just plain lonely, and very hungry, to engage with others. So I think that this new building will really lend itself to, to a different sense of mental health and wellness.
Dr. Ralph Ford:Let's dig into that a little bit. As you mentioned, we are moving into a new Erie Hall. The old one came down the new one is just about done. And it'll be January 2023, knock on wood. But we did something intentional there. It's a fitness center. It's a recreation center. A lot of the things that you'd normally see there, but we put our mental health facilities there.
Sue Daley:Unbelievable. You can workout with your therapist. Where's that been all my life. It's too far to walk up to the other Junker center gym.
Dr. Ralph Ford:Well, you're always welcome to come back after you retire.
Sue Daley:Thank you.
Dr. Ralph Ford:You always have a home here. You know that?
Sue Daley:Thank you. But I think it's an opportunity for the staff to walk the talk too. You know, they've got the treadmill right next door and their lunch hour.
Dr. Ralph Ford:That's exactly right. We all should get fitter. And, you know, our mental health should improve with this new facility. That's it? Well, you know, we joke but it's true. You You said it, I'll say it's mind body spirit. And I think sometimes we have to remind our students, it's not all about studying, in fact, you know, the student who studies nonstop is going to burn out.
Sue Daley:Oh, yeah. A life out of balance is not a pretty
Dr. Ralph Ford:I want to talk about some of the one really thing. innovative practice that you introduced here at Penn State Behrend and it made national news. Oh, Ernie, the therapy dog. Yeah, yeah, it was you were on the leading edge.
Sue Daley:Well, we were. We were as a group, that little animal was well supported by the administration. And I didn't think it was going to happen because, you know, risk management. You open your mouth and you hear no. And much to my surprise, they said yeah, they said yes. And as I go, No, I have to have a dog. Well, yes, Ernie was a nine pound, little German dog, an affenpinscher. And he was 14 years old when he passed away, July 9 of this past summer. And he changed everything, for me. Ernie was with us here on the campus as well as when he passed away. But yeah, when I researched Ernie, and the benefits of and I did because I had to propose something to the folks stand up about why. You know, so Ernie was a huge ambassador to a counseling office. I mean, he was cute. He had a spirited little comical personality. And this enhanced a lot, I think of the destigmatization and reluctance to ask for help. People would come in just to visit with Ernie. You know, at some point, I said to this staff assistant, I think Ernie needs a manager. I can't do all of this. A press manager. He did. But you know, he reduced a lot of the staff stress. I mean, he would sit on the staff assistance, desks, students would come in to make an appointment and how could you not love that face? And as I said, people would just come in to see or any but there are a lot of benefits to having an animal, as you know, Ralph. And so his presence really took a lot of the anxiety out of the room, when he'd show up and students would gather with him who didn't know each other. And that was something to see our whole lobby filled with people sitting in a circle. Ernie got a lot of treats out here. Ernie lived a very good life. We live on the beach here, and he had his roam of this beautiful Arboretum. He knew every tree on this campus.
Dr. Ralph Ford:He knew we would see you walk around here all the time. He knew grass in his life as well as the shoreline, so he, he lived a good life too, as to do all of we, and having him with us. He was also a national TV star wasn't he?
Sue Daley:Yes, he was. Yes, animal planet was doing a feature called Big Dogs, Little Dogs. And they were looking for little dogs. And my sister was at the time, the president of the Affenpinscher Club of America. And she said, call my sister. I'm like, great. So they did, and I thought it was a prank call. My staff assistant, he got the Animal Planet online. Sure enough, their team came from Boston, with all their equipment and stuff, and came to my home and spent hours there interviewing me. And my house is 100 steps down. You know, I live in a...yeah. So it was it was a scene. And they spent the entire day here, in and out of classrooms and so forth. And so we we really had quite an exhausting day. And then to see the show. Oh, my gosh, it's beautiful. I think you still can, I'm sure it's out there. Dogs one-on-one, Big Dogs, Little Dogs.
Dr. Ralph Ford:Well, you know, credit to you. It really was a leading practice. And, you know, now we take it for granted. Therapy dogs are everywhere. Yes. And in a good way. You know, as you know, my dog Harvey spends a lot of time here on campus as well. And, you know, they're part of our lives. But you were you were ahead of the times with with that one. And he is he's left a real legacy here. So let's talk about legacies. 30 years here? And, you know, a few short days, you know, you'll You're always a member of the Behrend family. just pack up. I won't say leave because, as I said, you're of But, you know, reflections, what are you hearing from students? course, always welcome and encouraged back.
Sue Daley:Thank you. What are you hearing from alumni? Ah, well, it's all good. I'll say that. It's all good. And I'm just been my heart has been full last few weeks. Since the announcement went out, kind of kept it a secret. I made my decision. Again, Ernie passed away in July. And in August, I was sitting on the empty deck without him at home and thinking, well, here's a brand new building coming. That building needs a nice, fresh, leadership, person, person with leadership skills, who with a nice fresh vision that can bring that place alive. My husband has been retired for a few years. And so he's been at home alone. And now he's really alone because Ernie's not around. And so I'd like to spend time with him. Every time i say something like "our bungalow needs refreshed", he says I'm going to get another job. I think he's fearful of my retirement, as others are excited for me.
Dr. Ralph Ford:Well and this will be his job. He just needs to get to work with you.
Sue Daley:Exactly. So I think the 18 years, the crisis agency and 38 at Behrend, that's That's enough, right? I plan to put a full day at the spa, on my schedule, right after I retire. And then from there, learn to regroup, refresh and repurpose myself. However, that will manifest itself into big plans.
Dr. Ralph Ford:That's great. Well, I do want to talk to us a little bit more about the impact you have on students. And they send you notes after they leave they tell you tell you about the impact you've had.
Sue Daley:Oh, yeah. Students are amazing. They really are amazing. They send thank you notes. And I have gifts that came to me this week. And they're just so grateful. And they show it and they mean it. Very sincere. You know, not everybody clicks with their therapist. I mean, that's a very important outcome to therapy that you clicked. If you don't, you should get another therapist, which we've done in the office, you can switch. Nobody takes it personally. But for those students that I've clicked with, there have been tears. Because it's a very intimate setting. When you meet behind a closed door with someone and provide a confidential, safe space for them to tell you their secrets. I tell them I'm going to go to my grave. There's going to be smoke coming with all the secrets I'm taking with me. But that that's been my job is to create a safe environment. And so when they move on from me, or anyone else, they know what therapy is about and, you know, hopefully they will continue with ongoing support. And many of them have asked, Who's my next therapist? So they'll be back in the spring under new wings? Yes, they will.
Dr. Ralph Ford:Well, we are coming to the conclusion of our discussion today. I will give you the last word, anything else that you would like to add today?
Sue Daley:Oh, well, I would just like to thank everyone who has supported me over the years the administration here, John Lilley, when John Lilley hired me, I was terrified to interview with him. We all were. And I shouldn't have been because he leaned over his desk and said, How do you do it? I know that's an easy one. So John Lilley, Jack Burke, our last Chancellor. Yeah, all of you have been the reason I'm still here. And there is such a healthy personal counseling office and I am just eternally grateful for that and all that's going to come.
Dr. Ralph Ford:Well, you have left a great legacy. You took us from a one person operation to a really professionally run personal counseling office here on campus. We are going to be forever grateful. We will miss you. As I said, You are always welcome back. My guest today has been Sue Daley, the director of personal counseling here at Penn State Behrend, ready to retire and the impact you've had on our students is large. Thank you for joining us today.
Sue Daley:Thank you very much.