Episode 147: The Georgia DOT Snow School

No matter where you live or where you operate, people have come to expect that they can get where they need to go, whenever they need to go. And while snow and ice may be more common up north, winter weather isn't just a northern problem.

States in the South don't deal with winter storms nearly as often, so building and maintaining a strong snow and ice program takes a little different approach.

About this time last year, Emily Fish, Assistant State Maintenance Engineer for Emergency Operations with the Georgia DOT, mentioned they were launching snow school to help get maintenance crews ready for winter weather.

It's time to check in with Emily and welcome Mitch Garmon, Maintenance Liaison in Emergency Operations, to the conversation to hear how things are going, what they've learned over the past year, and how Georgia DOT continues to build its winter operations capabilities.

Sign up for email notifications on future episodes and other communications associated with winter maintenance and winter weather management by clicking on subscribe on the Talkin' Winter Ops website at TalkinWinterOps.com

Thanks for listening in and stay safe out there!

Transcript

Rick 0:14

Welcome back to Talk in Winter Ops. One thing's for sure, no matter where you live or where you operate, people have grown accustomed to being able to get where they want to go whenever they want to go. And while northern states may get most of the attention when it comes to snow and ice, they certainly don't have a monopoly on winter weather. States in the south face a unique challenge. They don't see winter storms with the same frequency as their counterparts up north, which means building and maintaining a strong snow and ice control program takes a different approach. But that hasn't stopped states like Georgia. In fact, they're continuing to invest in their people and build the institutional knowledge needed to be ready when winter weather does show up. About this time last year, Emily Fish, who's the Assistant Maintenance Engineer for Emergency Operations with the Georgia DOT, joined us to talk about the agency's plans to launch a snow school to get maintenance operations up to speed for winter weather. With another year under their belt, we thought this would be a great time to check back in with Emily and welcome Mitch Garman, who's the maintenance liaison in emergency operations, to the conversation. We'll hear how the snow school has evolved and what lessons they've learned and how Georgia is continuing to prepare for whatever winter may bring. That's coming up right after this. The Ashto Winter Weather Management Technical Service Program can help answer those questions and more. Created over 30 years ago as PsyCOP and recently rebranded as the Ashto Winter Weather Management Technical Service Program, their core mission is to seek out promising winter maintenance technologies, ensure they're thoroughly evaluated, and promote them to DOTs here in the U.S. With a modest annual contribution, you and your agency can take advantage of this technical service program. Find out more about the Ashto Winter Weather Management Technical Service Program by visiting their website at transportation.org slash winter dash weather dash management. So Emily, you're the let me see if I get this right, you're the state maintenance engineer, assistant state maintenance engineer for emergency operations.

SPEAKER_03 3:08

Yes. So Georgia, we have um a state maintenance engineer, and then we have divided the duties. We saw the need to have um an emergency operations um employee doing specifically that. So I handle all the emergency operations for GDOT. Um and I'm housed in the state maintenance office.

Rick 3:32

So you you get a fair amount of those down there in Georgia, right? I know you get snow and ice, but you get hurricanes and tornadoes, you get just about a smattering of everything.

SPEAKER_03 3:45

We see a little bit of everything. Um we've seen hurricanes. We had Hurricane Helene come through about two years ago. Um we've done several besides that one, but that was pretty devastating for us. Um we're currently planning for the World Cup, um, as are many other states. Um we do the bridge strikes, we we take on pretty much anything that's bigger than a breadbasket comes through my office.

Rick 4:13

Yeah, yeah. And and and you get hit with snow and ice. You know, I think you could talk to just about anybody in in the world of winter maintenance, and they would take a blizzard over an ice storm any any day of the week.

SPEAKER_03 4:28

Yes, I would agree with that. Powdered snow versus ice is a is a whole different world.

Rick 4:35

So, Emily, we were at the Committee on Maintenance meeting last July, and when we were doing the breakfast, um you had talked about uh the Georgia snow school, that you were gonna stand up uh a snow school and um get in that business. And I'm was I I was feverishly writing notes to uh make sure that we circled back around and and touched base with you and see how that all went. Um a big question is what what precipitated this? What what was there like an event that occurred that said, you know, oh my gosh, you know, we've we've got to be better prepared, or was it just insight, or what generated that?

SPEAKER_03 5:19

Um a little bit of all of that. Um so the background is that um the emergency operations group out of Georgia Department of Transportation came from um what we affectionately refer to as Snow Mageddon or Snowpocalypse, um which is in 2014 or 2015. Um and I'm not going to say we were underprepared, but a calamity of events happened statewide that resulted in GDOT making national news, and we decided we never wanted to be there again. So um fast forwarding up to about two years ago now, uh last winter, um we have expanded that staff, and um we now have Mitch on our staff who um is kind of his subject matter expertise as snow and ice for us. But um we went back to back in Georgia, which is incredibly rare for us to do that. And now we've gone back to back for two years, so 25 and 26 um have been hard winter seasons for us. Um so after the 2025 season, we saw the need to um continue the information flow as people leave the department and retire um and give institutional knowledge. And we knew we needed to do something. So after two back-to-pack snowstorms, one impacting very southern Georgia with eight or nine inches of snow, we saw that we needed to get back to basics and we started talking about some sort of winter weather training. Um, and then I was I sit on the Ashto CTSSR committee, and Mike Nichols from Indiana was on there one day, and he just mentioned that they had a snow school. And I went, Oh my gosh, we need to talk to Mike. And I knew Mike outside of that as well. And I went, Yeah, I definitely have to talk to Mike.

Rick 7:23

So it's like one of those light bulb moments, you know.

SPEAKER_03 7:27

Yeah, yeah, you know, I think maintenance and emergency operations and winter weather going across the board. You know, there's no reason to reinvent the wheel on the real rudimentary stuff. If somebody has really good material, um, you know, don't start from scratch when when it can easily be handed to you. So Mike was gracious enough to to do that with us.

Rick 7:51

Yeah, our RD in our world stands for rip off and duplicate, right?

SPEAKER_03 7:56

I love it.

Rick 7:58

You know, it's um it's amazing how many times you I mean, it's just like when we were at the committee on maintenance meeting, we're sitting in the room and and just sort of talking about things that are happening in our different places. And it's it's like all of a sudden, it's like, oh my gosh, um that that's like really important. We need to follow up with that. We need to we need to spend some more time with that. And the um the synergy that happens when you get people together, you know, not necessarily for a Teams meeting where you've got an agenda of bullet points to got to do this, this, this, this, and this, but you get an opportunity to to interact and and visit a little bit, I think that's that's where some you you can develop some real synergy in that way.

SPEAKER_03 8:42

Yeah, it's totally vital. And for us, you know, by no means are we winter weather experts and and seeking guidance and leaning on people that are further north and DOTs that do this a lot more than us. Um, we have to rely on them to give us information and teach us and guide us and mentor us on some of this information.

Rick 9:05

You know, one of the I think you guys have like one of the diff the most difficult set of circumstances that that there really is, because um, you know, when you're when you're up north, we uh when you're in Minnesota, right? The snow comes in October and it stays till March. Yeah, maybe April. And and so it's like it's what you do, you've got the equipment, it's it's um and and because you do it all the time, you can afford to have the equipment and the materials and all of that. But you know, when when you have two, three, four, you know, five events a year, it's in in your position as the uh assistant state maintenance engineer, it's really tough to go to the the finance people and say, Oh, I need this many millions of dollars for equipment because we may use it two or three times a year. That's a hard sell.

SPEAKER_03 10:02

It's a very tough sell. Um, I would absolutely agree across the board with that that statement. Is you know, Georgia sits on that fringe line of getting snow and ice when it comes in a lot of the times it is wet. A lot of the times it comes in as rain and then turns over to freezing rain or snow. Um, so it makes it really difficult for us to brine or salt or plow because it's not coming in as powder usually. Um that's a pretty big rarity for us. And brining has worked for us, but if you get too much rain, it washes off the road. It's a very difficult set of circumstance, you know, set of weather forecasts for us to do this. Um and then, yes, you know, how do you justify and balance um your investments in snow and ice equipment for a state like this where we get it some years we don't get it at all. And then some years, like the past two years, where it's gone back to back, and you go, we do need to make some investments, but what is realistic and what is practical and the maintenance and upkeep of that equipment is not being used all the time. Uh what are our solutions there? So it is a lot. Um, we have seen other states' snow and ice budgets, and I've about fallen out of my chair a few times seeing those. Um we we certainly do not have a budget like Minnesota for snow and ice.

Rick 11:33

Yeah, well, but I mean it it's like your constituents, right? The folks that are driving on the roads in Georgia, it's like, hey, I I got supply chain issues for the businesses, right? I gotta get my stuff from here to there. I gotta get my kids to school. I gotta, there's things I've got to do. It's like, I think that that's the American dream, right? Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in my four-wheel drive vehicle can go anywhere, anytime, you know. Um, and and sometimes it's it you you you get into a really tough set of circumstances with your with your constituents because you know, if if they're out there and and they're spun out, you can't plow the roads either.

SPEAKER_03 12:16

So yeah. Yeah, and the the world has changed since Snow Mageddon. Um, you know, we had COVID at the state of Georgia did a huge um after action on that storm, and and things have changed. So the ability to work from home, the ability to allow even state employees and kids to still go to school virtually has really changed and helped. Um, it is still vital for us to to message publicly, you know, stay off the road so we can work, stay stay home if you can. Um, and that message is hard to get across because people do want to move and go places.

Rick 12:59

I just spent some time talking with um Becky Almoroth over in Missouri about a storm that happened just this December. And it was like it it wasn't a particularly difficult storm, a couple of inches, right? Uh, but it came in earlier than expected. So uh everybody had had gone to work and gone to school, and then oh my gosh, the snow started, and as they were trying to get out there and address the roads and so on, they uh sent all the kids home and and uh major employers sent their folks home so they could deal with their kids, and um it it really congested the works and made it very difficult. Uh I for that Snow Mageddon storm, that was that was in Atlanta, right? That like yes paralyzed the whole city.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

Yes, it was it did.

Rick 13:54

Wasn't it two storms back to back? So there was the first storm that hit, and everybody got caught, and then the next one came in and they said everybody stay home. And uh they did, and everything worked out pretty well. Am I thinking about the right storm?

SPEAKER_03 14:08

Yeah, you are. Um, and and like you were just talking about, that's part of what happened in Georgia back then is um they thought there was a good 12-hour window that was not um meant to be, and government and schools and businesses started sending everybody home at the same time, and the roads got locked up. So it was like I said, a calamity of events. You know, the forecast, it was much faster than they thought the storm was going to come in. So they had to speed everything up, and then trying to get people home um resulted in us not being able to get out there and be fast enough on cleaning and clearing the roads. So it was a lot of things that made that possible.

Rick 14:56

In our day, we always used to think of the motorist as our customer, right? And I think people still do, you know, it's it's like we're there because of them, right? But um I I think the we're we're quickly coming to realize that that customer is an active player in the whole winter maintenance scheme as well, right? Because things that they do impact what we do, and things that we do impact what they're able to do. And the the messaging becomes such an important piece because if they make smart decisions about their travel in the winter time, uh it helps us do our job better and it helps keep them safer and that sort of thing. Um, did did you, as part of your winter maintenance program, develop uh more of a messaging program, if you will, to deal with uh motorists and get information to them and forecasts and things like that?

SPEAKER_03 15:53

Yeah, so we're really proactive on that. We have a great comms team that is out there. They embed with us when we open our emergency operations center. Um, and we uh work out of a couple of facilities, but they're with us and they are very active and proactive about getting on the media, getting on the news. But we also, you know, statewide, the the governor is very proactive about making sure we have the resources and tools that we need through the state of emergency. Snow and Ice genuinely is a state of emergency in Georgia. Um, so getting those messages out to people and again enforcing those inclement weather policies across state government and across local governments many, many times will follow suit with us on what we're doing at the state. Um and we do use our overhead messaging, we use our social media, we use our 511 system to get the message out. And we um have a really great relationship with our National Weather Service offices here. And so we mirror their messaging a lot of the time on our overhead boards. So if there's a winter weather advisory out, that's what our boards will be messaging. We will be messaging the black ice information that NWS is putting out so that we are all um in sync across the board. So Georgia Emergency Management, us, and the National Weather Service. And we're hoping people heed those cautions, but um, you have to want to be at home as well and take care of yourselves and your family.

Rick 17:28

Yeah, I know when I was growing up as a kid, they'd they'd say, Oh, there's a bad storm, uh, we're gonna send all the kids home. And we say, Great, that let's let's go see a movie, let's go to the mall. You know, it's like in instead of going home, it's like we would do anything but but but but that consistent messaging is so important. I mean, yeah, when people start hearing different different messages and they have to start deciding, well, which one do I believe or not? That that that complicates things. Emily, tell us a little bit about the the CTSSR. I think did I get all those initials in there right? Tell us a little bit about that and and sort of how that played into your your uh snow school development.

SPEAKER_03 18:11

Um so CTSSR is one of the committees with Ashto. Um and they have an emergency and management um subgroup that they meet yearly. But uh there's six or eight of us that know each other pretty well, and we have an open line of communication pretty often. Um, and we meet once or twice a year either at Ashto Maintenance or CTSSR, and those are going to be combined this year, actually. So that will be a really great meeting. Um, but it is an exchange of information, ideas, been there, done that kind of scenarios, but also um trends of issues that are occurring, so rising trends. Um it's not specifically focused on winter weather, but that certainly is part of it. Um I always find it really entertaining when the when we start talking about snow being an emergency in Georgia and the northern states going, well, that's that's just business for us. And it is fun to go, well, hurricanes and tornadoes are just business for us. Um so that dynamic of the United States and just our different areas makes for a really interesting dialogue and exchange. Um, but Ashow and CTSSR is focused on resiliency and focused on emergency operations um across the board. And it's a really great thing because you do see a lot of emergency operations at DOTs coming through maintenance. So if there is a state that is listening that's not participating, you should um join up in that and listen to those calls. But it it spans the board. Lately, I was talking about um World Cup. There are numerous states that are participants in there that are um experiencing the same aches and pains, but also the same successes. And it's been really good to hear that exchange of information happening and occurring and seeing what we could take back that might work in our state and what we could give to provide information that they may not have yet. Um yeah.

Rick 20:21

Yeah, um, and I'm gonna be there in Colorado at that meeting, and and uh hopefully we'll be able to to uh get a chance to to uh get together and and talk a little bit about you know what's all going on in that world. You know, the transition when you think about snow and ice, there's even in states where it's like it's bread and butter, right? It's it's it's a routine kind of thing, is what we do, right? There's still this interesting evolution that takes place when a snowstorm gets started, and it's like the DOTs out there doing what they do because it's what they do, and and at some point the intensity of the storm gets big, maybe, maybe it intensifies, maybe it lengthens, maybe there's becomes traffic issues or whatever, and the DOT is still doing what they do because it's what they do, but it transitions from this routine operations to emergency operations, and and more people get involved and more resources you know come to the game. And it it I I just I I've been thinking about this for a long time, and I think it's just something really, really fascinating how uh a normal storm can can transition and ramp up and become an emergency for the state or or the region or the state, or next thing you know, it it could be a national emergency. You know, you see some of those big storms that happen on the in the in the northeastern corridor. Um I just I I just find that so interesting. You know, what what happens in it within an agency that says, okay, it's not routine anymore. stand up the EOC, the governor gets involved, the National Guard shows up, and and now maintenance has a lot of help to to do what it is that they do. I don't know. It just I just find it really interesting.

SPEAKER_03 22:14

It is really interesting. You know, when you go from a day-to-day routine thing to going, oh, we need some help um or we need more resources or whatever the situation may be. And Georgia DOT is really good at that and going, you know, this is one DOT, this is a team effort, this is not just maintenance, this is not just um emergency operations. This is all hands on deck. And we have a really great commissioner who is pushing that from the top. So we are very good about when we start seeing a trend inside the agency that it is leaning towards you know an all hands on deck situation or a real emergency situation. We have started we start a battle rhythm is what we call it, where we do one to two um agency wide calls per day and keep everybody on the same page and do those briefings and that really helps. It's it's probably one of our best practices to just bring everybody to the table and make sure everybody has that situational awareness. And you know we are enforcing the importance of this for the safety of our employees and the traveling public and making sure everybody understands that safety is first for everybody.

Rick 23:33

Yeah absolutely absolutely well we're gonna talk to Mitch and we're gonna spend some time talking about how you guys stood up this this uh snow school and and how all the pieces fit together and and I think it's really an interesting exercise even for folks that um you know they may have a they may have a snow school or a snow academy or or things like that I think it's important to to realize just like you did that hey you know I got snow and ice they got snow and ice uh let's let's compare some notes let's see uh if we can't make things better you know maybe there's equipment operation that fits in there maybe there's snow rodeos that fit in there there's I mean it's a it's a business all all to itself it is and uh I certainly want to give a shout out to Indiana for helping us um get our feet on the ground with this and then yeah you know we're going to send Mitch and a couple other guys out to the Western snow and ice conference this year to hopefully bring back some more ideas for us to implement into our own snow school well Emily thanks so much for jumping on I really appreciate uh the uh the time and and and the story I mean I I think it's just it's just such a cool thing to to go from an inspirational thought to uh actually seeing something manifest itself to to help the agency I think that's that's what it's all about that's kind of what Ashto's all about that's what these networks are all about absolutely Mitch I um was looking at your your resume and you've had a really interesting career trajectory from uh maintenance into emergency operations yeah it it's been a it's been an interesting ride been very enjoyable very fortunate at the same time so yeah I started back in 2011 in maintenance worked as a maintenance worker for a couple years and made my way up to an assistant foreman and then uh year and a half after that became a county foreman so I was uh head of towns county in northeast Georgia so I was running my own little crew at that time a little five man crew uh after that uh got promoted to the area four superintendent so area four is northeast Georgia consists of six counties Raven Towns uh Union Lumpkin White and Habersham so basically the northeast six counties that deal with snow and so after being the superintendent then I was the assistant area manager over maintenance and then I became the area manager and then now to where I am at with emergency operations so it's it's been a fun ride and everything I've done from beginning till now every year is fighting snow. It seems like you're tucked up there next to that border with Tennessee and it's like you always get some right yeah yeah it's between District 1 and district 6. District 1 is the Gainesville area district 6 is the Cartersville area so yeah the two of us deal with the most yeah cool now how long have you been um the the maintenance liaison in emergency operations about a year and a half now yeah okay so you know sometimes it takes a year or two for the weather and events to sort of cycle around before you finally start to see everything that's that's happening right yeah it was actually kind of funny so shortly after I got my position that was last January well December the year before but January of last year was when we got hit with those two snowstorms that were almost back to back and so people were looking at me the because that's why I was hired on to be somewhat the snow and ice guru weather guy and they started calling me a curse from the get-go it's never been this bad since you showed up and I said well thanks I appreciate that uh I was at the Committee on Maintenance meeting last year and one of the things we do there is uh round table discussion we we have a breakfast uh for folks to come and and just talk about winter maintenance winter operations and that sort of thing is pretty well attended and Emily was there and she was talking about a snow school that you guys were going to put on there at uh Georgia dot what what's the what's the history of that what's the evolution of that how did how did that idea of a snow school get started Emily and her assistant which is my boss Matt Needham they were having uh discussions with Indiana DOT and I don't know how the conversation came about because I wasn't part of the meeting but it wasn't shortly after they had that meeting that she was sending out this email about snow school and I'm thinking okay well what is this so we had a a team discussion about it and she told us what they were doing and said she really liked the idea of uh how do you want to put it uh a statewide training that gets everybody on the same page basically so everybody's playing out of the same playbook and so I thought this is great so we do a Foreman's academy which is kind of similar but it's just for the new foremans every so often so they get taught a consistent message but we've never done it statewide with everybody so as I was saying earlier district one and district six deal with snow on a regular basis but some of the southern states don't unless we have the metro plan activated that's where we bring them up to support the Atlanta area but even still they don't get that full on experience like the other districts do.

SPEAKER_01 29:21

So just hearing what Indiana DOT was doing and the the way that they were presenting it with all of their districts and keeping it consistent but letting the districts kind of run it on their own but they had to follow a model that they couldn't remove any information from but if they had something they wanted to add to it they could so last year she told me and the team to start working on it putting something together so I had a presentation for snow and ice already so I just took a lot of the management stuff out of it just simplified it just the meat and potatoes of what it is just to give everybody the same information ratios road speeds things like that how to make sure everything's properly adjusted and I guess you know when you do something for for so long you're just used to it and you think everybody else should do it but that's not the case and so when we had those classes just a lot of the feedback we got was really positive people just saying things like no I never realized that or I never thought about that or I didn't know what the salt to rock ratio was and I'm just thinking wow really well I'm glad I was here to help so it was a real big eye opener and we did a survey along with it too to to get their feedback so we know what to improve on this year. But our goal is naturally yes to improve upon it but keep changing it up a little bit each year so it stays fresh and it doesn't get stagnant so to speak so we have classroom sessions with just like I said earlier the meat and potatoes of this is how we do it, this is why we do it.

Rick 30:58

And then we have hands-on activities as well that way they can actually get out in the field and get a feel for us a plow and truck spreader if they've never been in one before and uh did loader simulations so but we're gonna I plan to change it up this year so we're gonna do some some different hands-on type of activities but but keep the the instructional part of it consistent so I'm I'm kind of curious about this connection with the Indiana Indiana DOT uh I read some I read a few things and and it sounds like that connection got made through uh a group of emergency response or emergency coordinators or or there there was some kind of a some kind of a connection on the on the emergency management side of things that sort of generated that that discussion that that conversation do you know much about how that all that shook out uh I really don't because like I was saying uh it was after they had the meetings with them and however whatever they discussed whatever brought it about I don't know that whole detail it was just she brought it to us with excitement and then I got excited too I mean without knowing the whole backstory it just sounded it was like this is perfect why haven't we been doing this already but but yeah I mean just just simply talking to one of your neighbors and just having a casual discussion whatever it may be and you never know when something's going to pop up that's going to intrigue somebody else's thought process and be like well how do you do that?

SPEAKER_01 32:31

How did you come up with that? You know can we borrow that? So that that's basically what we've done. We didn't reinvent the wheel we just kind of took a little bit of what they had and and mixed it with some of the stuff that we wanted to apply to it and just basically ran with it. And it was it was very fun. It was very educational informative and just getting out to all the districts and seeing all the people and hearing their snow stories and things like that is is it's really refreshing. Yeah sure now so did you take the snow school on the road or did you bring folks in or we went to all seven districts and presented it so we um just hands on with with each place in their own facilities that way they didn't have to travel because it's easier for four or five people to travel than 150. So yes we we brought it to them so when you did the snow school you brought everybody in the district in uh not just like a foreman or a lead worker or we didn't bring everybody in we kind of left it up to the districts to decide who they want to attend so each differ each district did things a little bit differently because we didn't want to just say hey this is what we're doing this is who we want we didn't want to just come in and take it over we wanted we wanted their support basically to to kick it off with without just coming in with a control type of mentality so um some classes were too large and then sometimes they were too small so that's what we're gonna work on this year and we just did it in one day possibly looking at branching out to two maybe but we just wanted to get something off the ground to get it going and then then this year we're we're we're tweaking it and trying to figure out exactly how we're gonna change it if we're going to extend it and just so they get the the most that they can out of it. Because I don't want them to feel rushed we don't want to feel rushed we don't want it to be boring so that's that's the that's the hard line or the tricky balancing point.

Rick 34:41

Right. So Mitch what kind of stuff did you cover in well so let me let me back up just a little bit you know I I think you guys probably have one of the toughest winter kind of maintenance environments to work in um because well first of all you get uh freezing rain right you get ice which like you you you talk to anybody in the in the maintenance world it's like give me a blizzard any day over an ice storm kind of thing and um and then secondly it's like you know if you're in Minnesota you know winter comes in October and it stays until March or April um but for for you guys it's like is it going to snow this year how many times is it going to snow? You know it it's it's uh it's it's really sort of tough to to plan around all of that because it's it's infrequent but you've got to be able to respond that your your your folks expect to be able to go wherever they want to go whenever they want to go there.

SPEAKER_01 35:46

Mm-hmm yeah absolutely it is tough I mean yeah we can't just say okay October 1st it's gonna start snowing and then we're just gonna deal with it for six months. Sure we have our season but just like you were saying it's just ask the magic eight ball is it going to snow this weekend and you know uh unclear at the moment so we just have to we just have to continually monitor the the weather and see what's going on and we've got a good relationship with uh NWS down here so they help us out a lot they give us a lot of weather briefings which is which is really nice to have and they can give us basically what their confidence is of the models of what they're showing and and we start preparing based on that that's when we we'll start telling the districts hey go ahead and get things dressed up just in case or hey it's coming get ready we need your we need your people so we can get hotels reserved get people moved around so it's it's it's a juggling act uh it definitely keeps you on your toes well and and you know you you bring up an interesting element you know if you're moving folks around the state to uh you know into areas where you're expecting weather it's a lot more than just hey putting a plow and sander on the truck uh there's an awful lot of logistics and things that that roll into that yeah the yeah there's quite a bit and uh it it thanks everybody being a part of it and helping out just getting their rosters together getting them to us so we can review them get them to procurement so they can get the rooms and just letting no letting them know when they will be leaving how long to pack for potentially how long they'll be gone uh where they'll report to who they'll report to uh what route assignments they will have so yeah there's a lot to it it's not just yeah go for it it's not it's not like it's gonna start snowing in two hours let's let's get out there and hit it right no so so Mitch what kind of things do you cover did did you cover in in the snow school you know you talked about uh ratios and application rates and and things like that did you spend much time talking about equipment and and plowing strategies and liquids and things like that. Yeah absolutely uh we first started off with what we just basically called plowing 101 just your simple basics of knowing the high sides of your road if you're going into super elevated curves which way to plow the snow to so you don't have you know melting and refreezing and things like that. And then just going over all the different components of the truck from the hopper to the plow how to take care of it how to check everything to make sure it works how to make sure everything is adjusted properly so you don't have a chain break in the middle of the storm at three o'clock in the morning and you're left with a hopper full of rock and salt and you have to shovel it all out so just a lot of those little little little key components just to make sure that they get the best that the best application process because if if the gate's not at the right height or if if your chute's not uh if the flaps in the chute aren't set right and you're losing material that's not making contact with the spinners I mean just just a lot of little things like that to make sure you're getting the best bang for your buck so to speak because we don't want to we don't want to it's like I I would tell them in the class when they're adjusting the chutes I said we don't we don't want rock and salt in the ditch. We don't care about the snow over in the ditch because that's where we're putting the snow we want it right here in the wheel pass in this 10 12 foot lane whatever it is that's that's where we need it to go not 10 feet over next to a right of way fence or anything like that. So yeah just a lot of little key things like that and then as I was saying earlier uh your salt to rock ratio yeah we run a three to one three three eighty nine stone to one salt and I never really realized it before until coming into this role but that it correlates a lot to the brine and the way brine's made so I mean there's a lot of similarities between the ratio of brine to the ratio of rock and salt. They're they're very very similar and I didn't realize that until I started teaching the classes and everything I thought hey you know this this makes sense it's not just yeah somebody said doing this there's a lot of science behind it and I learned a lot more about it in this position than I did beforehand when I was just working maintenance just out there doing the job I was just out there doing the job but trying to teach people I've taught myself a lot in the same process.

Rick 40:22

Well you know when because you get a chance to to sit and think about it a little bit you know it's like when the snow's coming down and uh this is the first or maybe the only storm you're gonna see the all all winter it's like there's a lot of other things going around you you don't have time to to to think about some of that other stuff that that you do when you're in the snow school right exactly for thought yeah absolutely um Mitch did you do you do much with equipment operation I mean I'm thinking you know a lot of states use uh incorporate a a rodeo for example where they'll get an opportunity to test their their abilities running a plow through a course or running a loader through a course or that sort of thing if have you thought about that is that something that you do or you want to expand to uh we have talked about it and that is something I've told my boss that I would like to incorporate because we do a safety rodeo with just your everyday type of equipment just a regular truck low boy dump truck skid steer motor grater backhoe stuff like that and it's always nice you know you just get a big group of people out there you know they get to show their skill sets and you know just show the camaraderie the support and all that kind of stuff and that's I said I want to do that with with snow and ice too because I think that would give them an opportunity to realize the parameters of the truck and the maneuvering of the blade and everything especially through tight places know when you got to have it shifted to the left or shifted to the right to make a particular curve and so yeah that's it's something I want to do.

SPEAKER_01 42:04

I don't think we'll get to do it this year but hopefully maybe next year we can branch into it. So it just depends on the support I can get behind it.

Rick 42:14

You you talked about um you doing a survey and and so on afterwards. How is it received? Have you gone through a winter after the snow school yet or is this the was was this like the inaugural offering here in in uh 26 and we're waiting for the snow to come? No no we um we went through snow school last year in November and then this past January we had two more good snow events where it was just kind of all over the place never knew where it was coming you know more snow in South Georgia which is completely unheard of so yeah there there have been events afterwards um when we do our next snow school that could be something we put in our survey which is which is a great idea and you know did did what we teach you what what we taught what we taught you last year did did it help you with this past snow event if so what was it so I mean yeah I think that would be a great question for our next our next round well and you know folks that have have gone through a storm or two after the snow school they become an important resource for future offerings you know it's like hey you know we went through the program and we've been out fighting snow and this stuff works it's pay attention it's it's important stuff you know Mitch do you um have you been interacting much with the folks from Indiana as you've been going through this process of developing the school and and that sort of thing have they uh helped provide some some of their expertise uh your way yeah they did whenever we were first looking into doing this I had uh a meeting similar to this with them we had a

SPEAKER_01 44:00

Teams meeting and they shared some of their material, their curriculum with me, and we just went over it. We probably talked for I don't know, it might have been about an hour or so, just how they do it, why they do it, how they got it started, and and things of that nature, and just shared ideas back and forth and uh borrowed some of their ideas, like I was saying earlier. So I haven't reached back out since we've had snow school to tell them of our successes. Um that I think that would be a great idea just to just to pass that along and basically say thank you. So I mean you got the ball rolling for us, you know. I don't want them to think we just took it and ran and forgot about them. So I mean, yeah, that's a very good point. I need to reach out and say thank you.

Rick 44:41

Yeah. You know, Mitch, any any words uh of wisdom you'd like to share with folks about setting up a new program like this? Um maybe were there any challenges that you had and putting the curriculum together or getting it offered?

SPEAKER_01 44:59

No, I mean I I wouldn't say there was any uh hurdles or any difficulties with it. Uh as I was saying earlier, Indiana was very gracious to share what they had with us, and then with with our team, there's there's six of us. We just we worked together and talked through what we thought we needed, what we needed to do, and how we needed to organize things and just bounced ideas off of each other, and and it basically it came together pretty fluidly. So, and then the first trial run, it's just like yeah, you know, sink or swim. So we we just went for it and afterwards it's like you know, this is great. Got a lot of a lot of good positive feedback and a lot of people coming up shaking hands, thank you, and stuff like that. And you know, you don't you don't see all those people on a regular basis, maybe, maybe two times a year at best, if you're lucky. So just getting out there and and making yourself known to them and and that letting them know we're here to support them. If you have any questions, call me. You know, I'll I'm I'll make time for you. I'll be happy to tell you anything I know, share anything with you. So and I think that that goes a long way with people instead of just saying, here's this information, take it, do what you will with it, say no, no, here's the information I'm providing you. This is what it's meant for, this is how it works, and I will support you however I can.

Rick 46:21

You know, you talked a little bit about what's next. You you talked about like improving the curriculum and maybe going to a half a day. Is is there anything else that may be on the horizon with respect to the snow school in future offerings?

SPEAKER_01 46:34

Yeah, um, as I was saying, we want to keep things fresh. So this past go-around, we had a whole big bucket of scenarios. And if you were stuck in this situation, what would you do? But we don't want to use the same ones again, so we're gonna come up with completely different ones that are relatable to those particular situations. And this past year we did a loader simulation training that simulated uh basically built a little rack that simulates the top of a dump truck bed or where the spreader would be in the bottom of a dump truck bed, and basically taking material with a loader and dumping it over that top bar without hitting it, which would be hitting a dump truck, or hitting the bottom bar with the tires, which would be hitting the dump truck. And so that went pretty good. It was it was interesting to say the least, especially when some of the the newer people got on there. But you know, you live and learn, grow, and make mistakes and learn from them. But yeah, this year I've got some other things that I want to try to do as far as uh a course setup would go to be more uh how would you put it real-world simulation type of thing, to where you can actually put your knowledge and and the truck plow to to the test to see if if you can maneuver this certain little course with particular objects and and not hit things or knock them over. So just make it a little bit more challenging, interesting, and maybe even try to make little mini rodeos out of it while we're there just for friendly competition.

Rick 48:14

So yeah, sure. Well, and you know, there's nothing like competing against your peers to bring out uh yeah. Well, and you know, you what you talk about with your loader simulation. I mean, I mean that's exactly what uh rodeo kind of an event would be all about. You know, can you load can you load a truck without hitting the truck? Yeah you know important stuff. I know. One of the ones that we used to do is we used to put um water in a loader bucket to measure the depth, and then you'd have to go around a course because smooth is fast, right? Right. And so the the smoother you could navigate through the course and not spill material, the the the better you are, right? And that was always a lot of fun um seeing just how much water folks would spill out of that loader bucket. Yeah, that sounds interesting. I'd like to see that. It was it, it was well, and you know, we would get folks in operating the the loader, for example, that don't normally operate a loader. And um it was it it was a lot of fun. Um in addition to the competition element of it. Um yeah, so you know what, and I think I think those are important skills that that um play a factor even during routine kinds of maintenance operations, you know, not just not just snow and ice. So yeah, that's that's cool. Well, bitch, thanks so much for for sitting down and and visiting with me about the snow school. I think I think it's it's really cool that um you know your your uh leadership saw it was important uh try to pass this along to to the folks in the field.

SPEAKER_01 50:03

Yeah, no, I mean this has been great. Uh uh thank you for having me. And yeah, I guess the only other thing I would say is if anybody, any other states, if they're not doing it, I would strongly encourage putting something together to to start their own snow school because like I said, the the more you can the more you can teach and empower people, the the better workforce you're gonna have and the better outcomes you're gonna have whenever these situations arise.

Rick 50:29

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Who knows? Maybe we'll be able to create a coalition of snow schools so we can continue to share and mentor each other like uh that relationship between you guys and Indiana. Yeah, absolutely. Best of luck to you guys in the future. Thank you. If you like this episode, don't keep it a secret. Share it with your friends and co-workers. And while you're at it, click subscribe and leave us a review on your favorite podcast app. It really does help. You can also sign up to get all the Talkin Winter Ops news direct to your inbox by clicking on subscribe on our podcast website, talkingwinterops.com. Sign up today so you can get all the news firsthand. I'm your host, Rick Nelson. Until next time, thanks for tuning in and stay safe out there.