8.5 Sanjana Ramachandran: Turning 90s Chaos into Literary Gold

What happens when the love of family feels more like a battlefield?

In her debut novel Famous Last Questions, Sanjana Ramachandran explores the messy, painful, and sometimes beautiful struggle of growing up caught between parental expectations and the search for your true self. With sharp honesty and warmth, she dives into themes of rebellion, identity, and the healing power of mindfulness.

Join Tara and Sanjana as they trace her journey—from getting kicked out of BITS Pilani to writing the viral “Sanjana Effect” article that sparked a conversation about cultural pressures, and finally to publishing her debut novel. It’s a story of resilience, courage, and finding your own voice against the odds.

‘Books and Beyond with Bound’ is the podcast where Tara Khandelwal and Michelle D’costa uncover how their books reflect the realities of our lives and society today. Find out what drives India’s finest authors: from personal experiences to jugaad research methods, insecurities to publishing journeys. Created by Bound, a storytelling company that helps you grow through stories. Follow us @boundindia on all social media platforms.

Transcript

Tara Khandelwal: 0:02

Un Welcome to Books and Beyond. With bound I'm Tara Khandelwal and I'm Michelle d'cota, in this podcast, we talk to India's finest authors

Michelle D'costa: 0:11

and uncover the stories behind the best written book and

Tara Khandelwal: 0:15

dissect how these books shape our lives and worldviews today. So

Michelle D'costa: 0:20

let's dive in.

Tara Khandelwal: 0:23

Today, I'm doing something I absolutely love, rewinding to the glorious 90s. Think floppy disk phantom cigarettes and secret diaries tucked under pillows. But more than nostalgia, I'm also asking, How did growing up in the 90s shape who I am today. And to explore this question, I'm joined by Sanjana Ramachandran. She's an essayist, comic and now Debbie, author of famous last questions. I really like this book because it's part memoir, part cultural deep dive, and it brilliantly dissects the Indian millennial identity. It unpacks how the India we grew up in, those very specific do's and don'ts the pop culture the unspoken rules has shaped our sense of self, and we Millennials are full of contradictions. We're modern but traditional, self aware but confused, successful but deeply anxious. Even Shashi Tharoor has called this book The defining book for millennials. So as a millennial myself, I found it deeply relatable, and can't wait to get into the questions that you ask in this book. Welcome. Thank

Sanjana Ramachandran: 1:25

you, Dara, I'm very excited to be here and talk about the book with someone who read it and seems to relate it to it and understood it. So, yeah,

Tara Khandelwal: 1:32

glad, yeah. I related to it a lot, you know. And I really liked that this book is a mix of personal and then, of course, you add in a lot of research to qualify why we think the way we do. So I wanted to know what was the starting point. Let's go back to the beginning. What was the starting point of writing this book? At what and at what point did you know? Okay, this isn't just my story, but it's a story that connects to these bigger conversations around class, caste, technology.

Sanjana Ramachandran: 1:59

I think the starting point was, as I mentioned earlier in the first page of the book, it was something that the way my life unfolding made me think was the reason for it, like there were a lot of extreme events through my childhood and teenage years that made me feel like all of this can only happen to someone whose life is meant to be a story. Otherwise it's not. It's not normal. But that was the seed for like me, wanting to make everything that happens to me and around me some kind of story which is not necessarily healthy, because you're always then, I mean, subconsciously, sometimes seeking. And those are things I'm coming down with in relative but I would say that's when it really started, long ago, and how the current shape and form it took, I think there was a very definitive moment in 2020, right through the lockdowns, when it's funny this, I was seeing this boy, entirely digitally, like we'd never met. He was an old friend. We happened to chat, you know, like phone, video call and like, we just really hit it off. He was in another country, and soon we found that like we were dating, and one of the books he gave me in the six months that relationship lasted through which we never actually saw each other face to face, and plenty of new digital territories were explored. He gave me this book called Trick mirror by GIA Tolentino, which I felt was, like, very, very relatable to me as a like, that's a book by a white woman, and I don't know, it's probably problematic to say I related to it in some ways, but I did because it's and I found that many people might see herself themselves in her story, because she talks about growing up with the internet, and in India, growing up with the internet, that just took me back to how fragmented I started to become right back then. Like there were, intuitively, I was like, my parents wouldn't like to see this. So I need to, like, if I'm being on Facebook, then I need to like, make sure they don't see that content. Or, like, we didn't have the word content that time. So that that book gave me a sort of frame for the way I was thinking about my life. Then I also, I mean, tried different forms. Like you said, I had tried to joke about my life. I wrote some other screenplays and essays took off because, like, my work with 52 kind of gave me that structure that the book expands on and like goes beyond now, but just basically, like, start jumping from the personal to the societal to reportage and research. That's kind of what I did with the namesakes. One of my essays for 52 which explored the story of how I got my name Sanjana. And it turned out like I knew there were like, one or two or three other people like me, and that's what the first draft of that story took like. Here's why my name is Sanjana. Here's what my parents were thinking. Here are all the aspirations and meanings. And you know what research says about baby names and success and all of that? And then Supriya and I are the editor of 52 in the second draft, said, I'm pretty sure like this, why don't we just put out a call on Twitter and see how many people? And then, like, I spoke to like, 4550 people for that story. And then that became so through like that, I got like this formula, the craft of like, how, how do you like, try to find and my marketing background also helped, because it's a lot of like. Consumer Psychology and like, you know, what is one thing really about you? Or is it about like, there's a methodology to finding that stuff out? So I yeah, I've been really interested in this way of understanding and analyzing the world. It's time consuming. It's long form, but I think it does give you more insight than a lot of things that we gravitate towards today. So that's, I hope answered your question, yeah.

Tara Khandelwal: 5:21

And actually read the Sanjana after when it came out. Really, really enjoyed it as well. So I really like the beginning of the story, because it starts with, you know, the scene of your expulsion, and someone carrying you home drunk. And then you know your Aman, your upper I mean, I can only imagine whatever I'm like in person, and then we've always, you know, that led you to have this sort of achievement complex, and we've already seen these classic hippie films, right where the rebellious kid gets tame and they turn into an obedient adult. And in your case, it feels like the opposite, like you did all the things that expected of you. You studied engineering and BITS Pilani. You worked you and iIm. You worked in marketing, chem, but on your own terms and and you also, you know, at one point we're going to marry the conventional, you know, yeah, go sit. And now you're out here writing essays and publishing a novel and sort of turning that on, on its head. So I really wanted to speak a little bit more about that.

Sanjana Ramachandran: 6:23

Yeah. I think the the deeper part of that split, like, yes, it makes you, I think even people without that kind of plot point event where you get expelled, and therefore that, like, gives you some instinctual, major reason to prove yourself and correct, you know, some mistakes. I think India is like a very competitive country. From the start, I was chatting about this with some friends, our nervous systems are probably more on edge than, you know, first world countries, because, like, right from the get go, we're told that, you know, it's do or die, like, there's just one or two or 10% of you that that has a life that we call making it and so that you everybody's just, like, focused on, you know, making it and survival is the biggest thing. And if you look at even how how crowded our roads are and how crowded our houses and rooms are, like, there's not enough space, so we're, like, constantly fighting for resources, and it feels very zero sum in our heads from the get go, where, like, my success will come at the cost of yours. I feel like that's ingrained in and I talk about this in chapter two, that then that my success at the cost of yours also is how how identity starts to come into the picture. Because you as this identity have certain opportunities, and then there are other identities that people say are marginalized and, you know, oppressed, so they're going to be given points, but to the dominant identity that's very threatening. So I feel like everybody in India has this achievement complex, and India as a nation has this achievement complex because we were plundered and colonized like not too long ago, two to three generations ago. So I feel like everyone's always trying to prove they're Indian, and what. What does it really mean to be like as Indian as anybody else, and then India itself is, like this major country. Everything seems to, like, tie back to an achievement in AI. Everything's like, you know, will India get there? So a lot of like nationalism and like self actualization that I think needs to happen for all of us that are individual and cultural levels. I feel like, even though I've become aware that I had this complex that drove me to always push myself, even when I may not have cared, like, I don't even know, do I care or do I not care? I just have to do it anyway, like we're all just in that go mind.

Tara Khandelwal: 8:27

I think I very much relate to that as well. Because obviously, you know, my career path is not anything linear, but even within, you know, non linear parts you obviously expected to be sort of like what you said top of the field, you know, yeah,

Sanjana Ramachandran: 8:40

yeah. Yeah. Like, for example, even though I'm pursuing what I think is me now there's, there's still the voice of other people and dates and how they expect a writer's life to look like. So I have this friend who will be like, you know, you should do these things and you'll get more followers. And I'm like, that's not my style at all. Like, I don't imagine myself creating like, random controversies to get attention, like I might do reason, like, I'll do all of that, but and then, you know, it's only a big book. If it's like, you know, Shashi Tharoor has to endorse it for it to be an achievement. You aren't just going to read it and, like, appreciate it for what it is. And that's fair, because we're living in a very saturated environment. But it does exist, and it does like, Penguin has to be the publisher for my family to get it. Otherwise she just quit her job and she was sitting at home somewhere, which is not true, even though we're recording this podcast at home. But like,

Tara Khandelwal: 9:28

we're very brand conscious as Indians, and we have to sort of prove, you know, that we have worked with the brands that we associated with. I think

Sanjana Ramachandran: 9:36

it's interesting because, like, if you feel like you don't have, like, you have a point to prove, the earliest way people are going to reach out is, like, by associating with things that already have that worth in the world's eyes. So brands are like, one of the first like, so the influx of brands and the opportunities that gave us to like, sort of demarcate where we are on the class ladder and like, what kind of people we are. And I think the interesting thing about like, you know. Dalits owning an iPhone, or, like, luxury bags, wearing suits, etc, like the capitalistic form of, like, resistance against what is considered to be appropriate for marginalized costs, like that that also exists. Another thing

Tara Khandelwal: 10:14

I liked about the book is, you know, the sense of contradiction and cognitive dissonance, which we spoke about earlier. I think there's a really large sense of self awareness. And I think my favorite character was the one about the work chapter, just because for me, it was also very relatable. You know, nobody in my family knows what I do, and it's very hard to explain it to them. I also talk about, you know, the broader themes of the systems of capitalism. And I like the paradox that you pose. You say you're both anti establishment and not you're within the system because you want a nice life, yet you understand its drawbacks. And I like that sense of contradiction that was there in not only this chapter, but even in, for example, the chapter about body, right? Because you recognize that you know growing up, I remember Kareena Kapoor size zero, but then you say, yet you care about your looks. So can you talk more about that contradiction?

Sanjana Ramachandran: 11:06

Yeah, I feel like any kind of argument that links, not just without capitalism, but in general, any kind of argument that's like, it's 100% this and a 0% the opposite, like, it doesn't do justice to how we as human beings feel, where we can actually have, we can feel two different ways about the same thing, and we can be like I, and that's that's true of people. So like, I like this about certain people. I love them overall, but I hate certain characteristics, but I will keep them as my friend as long as they treat me well, you know, so because I think that's what, that's what it means to be like a complicated and, you know, nuanced person, instead of because if you're more wedded to an ideology than the reality that you're in, I think that's when you become kind of rabid and fetal whether you left us or right is, I think, like, if you're only because no ideology is right 100% of the time, but you are invested in seeing and making it right 100% of the time, which means you're, like, going to be even more at odds with yourself than, I think, a person who's aware that I'm for some things and for other things, but I can't live out those values and ideas all the time. It's the best that I can do. And I actually feel like being in the middle has helped me have, I don't know, not more impact, but a decent amount of impact. And I would like there's also, I mean, many theories to say that in a study of feminist movements, I think Adam Grant wrote that the ones who were moderate kind of paved the way for radicals to actualize their you know what they wanted to but I think more more practically and in my life, I feel like, for example, I've been I've worked at a brand where I wrote about caste in Indian marketing sometime back, and that piece then became like something that People in my university used for research and, like, studying ads further, and that wasn't a discourse about, like, how you can respectfully and use advertising as a tool to raise awareness, or, like, you know, push back, create resistance on these things, because it's like, honestly, I mean, capitalism being like, we've seen what happens to every Pride Month. So it's not necessarily going to be meaningful, but at least it sparked that thought. And since then, like, you know, like, there was a brand that I was working with that wanted to use Swami as a brand mascot, and I was like, that's very brahminical and probably exclusionary. And even though it would talk to your PG of, you know, elite Indians, it, it would not be, quote, unquote, inclusive and appropriate. I think so. I think there's a lot you can achieve by having the awareness and, you know, knowing the system's drawbacks, and then being in the system, because you can, like, incrementally, marginally, like, say the things that you think should happen, and make that change happen. Instead of being like, these people suck, and everything about this sucks. And I'm going to be in believing this ideology that actually has no basis in, you know, it's all theory. Like some of, some of what I hear people is just all theory. Like, how are you going to, like, I mean, to each their own, but this is what I've made my peace with. So I feel like that dissonance exists, continues to exist. I think it will always exist for me, Herman Melville, you know, apparently. So just a few 1000 copies with Moby Dick in his lifetime. And most of these names that we review Kafka, you know, they all had office jobs, and they were all kind of not really well known in their lifetimes, but they were recognized by the institutions, etc, later on. But like, how are we going to not have these? You know, your foot in the establishment, even if you're not working in a job like you will brush against it. You will buy a bottle of this Larry. You will have to come to terms with the fact that this is the system. So I think instead of hating it, you need to also see its merits. And there are there are merits, like I mentioned in chapter five and six, like the work chapter and in the body chapter. I think the merits are less because capitalism never will let you feel okay about how you look. But at least in the work chapter, there is like it's unfair, there's a lot of inequality, but advancement is possible. The better life is possible. And if you are resenting people who have better lives than you, know there's something you can do about that, like there is some even though it's not really fair, and there'll be a lot of roadblocks you get, even as a woman, even as a martial. Nice caste or religion, but you can try. So there are merits, and those, those merits have helped me and my mother and the women I know, escape some horrible situations. So I don't think it's fair to it's completely hated, but it's okay to know that these are these things are not okay. And I think that opens a room for discussion, like, for example, startups, if you look at it, the communist ideal is, I think, very vague and lose analogies, if I'm permitted to make. But like, you know, the whole theory of Marxism is that you're alienated from the fruits of your labor, if I'm and that causes like whatever self is alienated from the fruit of its labor. But if you look at it in startups, the model is that you're given a percentage of ownership, and then you are all rallying around that, and you are like, I think it is, like a fair model that is, is like, keeps, keeps you proportional to what you're investing. And so I don't know a lot of it seems to I don't, maybe I don't understand it fully, but there are ways in which you can create systems that are at least fair in themselves. I agree, because

Tara Khandelwal: 16:00

that's when you can also have conversation, because we are living contradictions, right? Like, I know this a lot as well, when it comes to work and privilege, also, you know, when it comes to climate change, you know, how many products can I actually buy? What? What is the impact that I can do, even if I live, you know, 100% in line with, you know, everything. It's not going to make an impact when it's not possible. So you have to sort of be within the system, as you said, and also think about the contribution that you can make in a in a way that you can also live your daily life and, you know, enjoy it. So I think, absolutely, I

Sanjana Ramachandran: 16:37

think a lot of privilege, and that's been the norm, I think, for the last few years of identity politics, or whenever the social justice thing became really, it's like, we love to live rather comfortable lives and then feel really guilty about it and be like, you know, but we consume so much. I'm going to be like, buying everything at like, a locally sourced, organic thing, and like those, you don't even know what those food chain like you are being anti consumers in the most consumers possible way, because there's a lot of stuff targeted to people like you to make you feel better about your place in the economy that is still part of that economy. So and I've also like, I feel like, personally, sometimes those people, the very righteous people who are like, judging their every action and making these decisions to fit like, feel less guilty, like they're sometimes the most annoying people to be around. You know, they're constantly correcting. You know, this is like, you know, this has, like, sulfate or whatever, and I don't know, but I just feel like I can't be myself all the time around, like i There are parts of me and like, if I were to, like, completely not even try to be correct, or thinking about the rest of the population in this like, I think, if it going back to that survival thing, and this is like, a lot of the comforts that we're all tasting are for the first time, and nobody is going to like, if you have truly suffered, you won't take it for granted. Like, if you have been in a difficult spot in your life, and you reach a place of comfort and stability and the structure that the establishment, whatever system can be with all of its flaws, with all of its micro traumas and sexism and misogyny and casteism, you will still value the comfort and the safety of living in an apartment and like having a roof above your head and three meals. Like why all of that is part of that same system. For example, I had a friend who was like, climate change is actually good in some parts of the world, between waning more and it's having all of these. So, I mean, you know, if you look at it as a system level, it's very uneducated also to say that it's only bad because, like at a large systemic level, things are going to have such complex effects that if you're going to say something is good or bad, and give me, like, a proper analysis of it, but on the face of it, to me, as a layman, most things are good and bad.

Tara Khandelwal: 18:41

100% agree with that. I feel like we have so many opinions, but most of them are not packed with research. I also want to talk about our relationship with parents, because that is something that is a very sort of millennial thing, because we're constantly stuck between generations, right? We are told to fit into these family and societal expectations, and then we're surrounded by the younger generations who maybe are more in touch with identities. And so, you know, you talked about in the book how we're chameleons. You know, we're playing the good child friend. We have these masks on all the time. And you know, also the question of morality, like, what's a good Indian girl? What's not all of those things are things that when you're growing up, to grapple with those issues. So I just wanted to ask a little bit more of that. And did you uncover any new aspects of identity when you were writing? Yeah,

Sanjana Ramachandran: 19:34

I think a lot of it was started by a need to be honest at home about all the ways in which I'd failed them, but they didn't know about it, because I had this perfect front and exterior and mask at home. I felt like I had to, you know, create things and put myself out there, but I was like, wrapped with fear. Because how will I do that if the people I'm hiding from are, like, right around me? So how am I gonna, like, be myself on a larger stage? If, like, I can't even be myself at home, so I. Then like that. If anyone's read the book, they'll see that they're very intertwined, that it was only this effect, like standing up to anything that's not that's not you, and then that just makes the rest of your life align. And then the people who stay, they stay, and it's great. And the people who don't, it sucks, and it really hurts, but you find a way to make peace within and got to a point where, like, I think I always try to spare my parents a lot of my feelings, because, well, they are harsh, like they some of them are like, and I think it's okay, because, like, we also have this very black and white thinking in India. I think you can see it in a lot of the way media discourse and reactions play out, like when the body I said that, you know, kind of inanely disgusting question about parents. It's also a borrowed comic motive, and like, in reacting to that, people were like, the fuck. And also, you know, politicians coming after him and like, why is it? Why is the question, like, if I talk about my parents in a slightly critical way, I'm sure there's a crop of people who'll be like, they're your parent. They did everything for you. And so how can you even criticize them? And I'm like, you can criticize anything like anything with a healthy ego. You can be like, this was good, this was bad. Here's what might, you know, change things. But I think it's only when you you equate any criticism to hatred, or, you know, absolute disrespect that means that there's something culturally wrong. There's like, a complex there, like, we can't stand criticism about certain things. That means that we're not able to see that things are not zero or one. There's like, a sheet of, you know, yes, they did all of those things, and yes, I'm, like, probably going to be indebted to them for the rest of my life or lifetimes. But they did also hurt me, and they did also stifle me in certain ways, and they they did these things that have not helped me. You know, in the best Why can't I talk about these things? So I feel like did get to a point in my myself, at home as well, where I was like, I need to be able to say this. And I see examples of better relationships in media all the time. So what is the big deal? And it did, even though I had come to that realization, there was a lot of like, difficulty in being honest with them, because they're, like, very entrenched in their own point of view and what they think you should be. So I mean, it was many repeated pushbacks. And then I think this chapter six talks about this one episode or mental breakdown where I was just like, I had to be honest, like, the pressure and your own problems becoming my problems, lack of boundaries, and how I've had to always be there for myself because I can't even be myself at home. All of that came out, and I mean, my mom's really changed since then. I have to give her a shout out if she ever ends up listening to this or reading the book in its entirety. Honestly, I hope they don't. It was not for them anyway, and things are fine now, but, yeah, my mom's become a friend like she knew. She understood that in standing up for her, and, you know, the history that we had, I lost a lot of myself. And so she's made, she's gone above, and she's never like, sort of lacked in the discipline and the duties of a parent, right? She's like, not unlike, you know, fathers, Indian fathers, they should never drop the ball. Super responsible. It's only the emotional part where she's, like, learned to become a friend. I think, yeah, it is hard. Like you said, like, so what is it like for you with the parents thing? Yeah, actually,

Tara Khandelwal: 23:18

I had a very different experience. I have a lot of friends who, you know, parents put a lot of pressure on them in terms of, like, morality and things like that. My parents actually grew up drinking, smoking, partying, so I actually rebelled the other way, because when I was growing up, I saw my friend's parents being very, sort of strict, and my parents were all my my dad is sort of like the black sheep family, and was very rebellious for his time. I went the other way. And I went, like, very, like, all girls, good girl, like, smoking is bad. I will never go to a night club. I will never, like, do anything, you know, all of that. And like, total, like, you know, that way. And then I actually, I then in my like 20s, like, okay, you know what? Like, this is a reaction to that. So it was a very different experience. I think I'm interesting as well. Yeah,

Sanjana Ramachandran: 24:10

yeah. I think human beings are dumb, yeah. Basically, our psyche is so rooted in, like, this subconscious rebellion, plus, you know, conforming worship and, like, you know, dislike authority issues and all of that. Like, it's interesting. Like, I think, like that. The other reason I don't want any, like, my parents to be affected by the book in any way, is just see it as, like, your child has just processed some things, and don't take it too personally, because, anyway, like, you're not taking it too personally. So it's fine. But like, yeah, it's just that. I think there's a way in which children will always get fucked up by their parents. And

Tara Khandelwal: 24:44

I just want to say that you can,

Sanjana Ramachandran: 24:47

yeah, like, even if you give kids the most perfect parenthood, they will feel stifled by it. They'll want to rebel in their own way. It's just like a part of growing up where you're like these people who are like everything to you you're so sad, like, for which. Child psychologically, the parent triggers are God triggers. So if they're the whole world, so the smallest you're constantly reading into things as as a kid. So even things that they are doing like, as a normal, stressed out adult, who has probably many, you know, things to manage, you may just be like, I don't know, to some question, but then that child is going to be like, she brushed me off and like, you know, her hand was dismissive and it means she hates me. I'm not worthy, and that narrative is then constantly looking for affirmation from what is actually one innocent moment. So I think even with parents who are, like, educated about the emotional worlds of their kids, there is the way you will fuck them up, which is why I love that Philip Larkin poem that I put it in the book also, which is, they fuck you up your mom and dad, and they pass them on to you so you can fuck your own kids up too. Like, it's, it's cycle of life, I think,

Tara Khandelwal: 25:52

yeah, it's so weird, and then you have to come to terms with it. I was just reading this book called The anxious generation. Interesting. Yeah, okay. And it said that, oh, you know, your parents, you know, like a healthy amount of neglect is really good for you, because then what happens is you get into a mode. You get into a exploring mode, rather than if you're always portal, then you defend more. And I was like, Oh, my parents really like them. Probably did a very good job, because I was always like, when I have a kid, I'm going to, like, be this, you know, like, super mom and, you know, whatever. And then I was like, you know, what, like, a good amount of neglect, I was like, probably has shaped me the way that I am today, and I actually appreciate that, you know. So you do learn, sort of, you know, and come to terms with the things that your parents did. And I like that about your book as well. So I wanted to ask, you know, what do you want the audience to get out of the book? Because I really like the sections on, you know, women, women at work, marriage, dating, all of that. So Is it primarily a audience that is women? What about a male audience?

Sanjana Ramachandran: 27:02

No, actually, that would not serve my purpose if only women related to it. And that's not the point. Also, I think the point of how suffering is is not although, yes, the narrative in identity politics is that these identities have suffered, and there's a lot of trauma from the oppressed and oppressor identity. A lot of it is also about how Nobody escapes from men women. And so even even through the story of explaining how female trauma occurs in patriarchal family systems, the ending of Chapter Six is about how, actually the man who's supposed to benefit from these patriarchal is also kind of miserable. So it's, it's, it's basically like the structure of human life is suffering various kinds of suffering, and even when everything's okay, there's like, a bit of top layer of suffering that you can't get rid of, like, no matter what's going on. I think the central message and the takeaway of the book is to, like, find your spiritual inner center, because without that, like, it's going to be very hard to withstand the world and how much there is to process that only keeps increasing. I think the point of the book is to find a way to be engaged that's authentic to yourself and genuinely like a scientific way to be like, This is me and this is not me. And I think that's what Vipassana gave me, and I, I've been practicing for three years in in my own way, which is which involves having a normal life again, like I do go out, I still party and but I still come back. And so that method of knowing what is me and like this constant self scanning that helps you know what reaction the world is causing in you and what you feel about those things, and then being conscious about your decisions and the way you show up to things in your life. I think, yeah, it's basically a book about becoming conscious. If I had to say that's like one central message and something that is truly universal. I don't know if you've gotten to the Epilog, but I've kind of traced back the lineage of why I told the story in this way, and it was kind of cosmic things interlinking for me when I picked up Siddhartha at some point, I was towards the end of writing the book. I picked up Siddhartha by Herman essay again, and I I happened to, like, when I read it this time, I was like, Oh, this is what the book is about. And, like, there's so many parallels that I when I read about how that book came out to be it's like, he also undergoes like this. I don't know if it's sparked by trauma and difficulty, but he, I think it's a, it's an archetypal journey that humans go through in their could be mid 20s, late 20s, late 30s. Whenever that inflection point occurs, they are like, what is the meaning of all this? And what is, what is my place here? And how do I know what that is? And sodharta goes on this, like, you know, spiritual journey. He becomes monkish, and he does that for a few years, and he's, you know, stays away from that. And I there's like, this whole, that's the end of seeking is also, like, a part of the spiritual journey. So I feel like there was that in in me, coming with this, like. Burning me to find out why my life had been the way it was. How do I heal from all these things and truly become myself? That all led to a series of experiences and questions about becoming more conscious and then realizing even all the questions are kind of, you know, they dissolve and you're left with, like, some kind of acceptance or understanding of all these contradictions, all the chaos, and yet very rooted in something that's true to you. So I would say that would that, I hope, would be the central takeaway for anyone reading the book, and it had to be specific to my experience as a woman, so that the specific shedding the universal, so that both are convincing, right? Because if I just make it universal without having the experience, it's not real. But I think there is a way in which, even if you read this, it, parts of it are like specific to womanhood. The equivalent of manhood should stand out immediately because, because this is happening to women in a certain way, this is what it's manifestation is inside me as a man, that maybe I've been in condition to not be comfortable with my femininity. Maybe I've not allowed myself to, you know, fully not live up to these ideals of what manhood is. And that, if that, if it sparks that insight and helps people challenge these conditionings, I think that would be great, yeah.

Tara Khandelwal: 31:10

Oh, that makes sense. And I also like the way that the book is structured, because every chapter is a question. So you have, you know, one of the questions that I really like is, will you ever get married before I die?

Sanjana Ramachandran: 31:19

Yeah? Which is so literal, yeah. I mean, I got made fun of it by not even younger. I just also want to come back to the millennial yeah question at some point. But yeah, like, what? You didn't make everything about being in your 30s. And I was like, Yeah, man. Like, I mean, it is, it is difficult my grandmother to, like, last, I think it was my birthday, like, recently, again, she was like, why don't you get married? I'm going to die soon. And this time, finally, after 656, years of being, starting every conversation the same way, I was like, Maybe you should die. You know you should, maybe you should. Like, I just lost it. And I don't endorse this behavior. I don't endorse that feeling, but I it just came out. And I was like, Yeah, I mean that that question is very literal, like, get married before I die? Like, that's what has been thrown at people. And I know I'm not alone, but like, a lot of people, just like, get married or I'm going to die soon. Like, it's just, like, very revealing of how shocking that decision is expected to be structured. So what if I find find a lot of my life at 3738 I mean, very unlikely the way it's going, but if it's, if that's the right time for me, then that's the right time for me. I'm not going to rush into it, because you're going to, in your own words, die like,

Tara Khandelwal: 32:27

yeah, no, it is. It is funny. I think, like, that's something that everyone relates to grandparents and things like that. That's like, the first topic of conversation and but, yeah, I like the structure of the book, and within each chapter, I like how the essays are very free flowing. And there's a lot of information, you know, and you go, sort of, there's no, sort of, like, you go from one topic to another. So can you talk a little bit more about how you constructed each essay? My mind, they're super

Sanjana Ramachandran: 32:55

structured. I'm a very structured person. So I have, like, when I start writing, I usually have a map of all the information I want to join. So there's like, these long docs with the flow, as I call it, with the long docs before that were the research and where every dump of everything that needs to come together in that particular thing, and then before that, the master doc on the book. So for a Chapter, there's a lot of reading around that. Like, I think for the it was in Jan this year that I fully read a book for the first time in a long time for leisure. I read Fiesta by Ernest Hemingway. But before that, everything you know consciously unconscious is always connecting back to those questions that you are trying to answer and writing. So there was a lot of information gathering in every talk about every chapter, and a kind of order that I then put to it that I want to start with the story, connect to this point, connect to this that that was there, and then there is improvisation that happens along the way. So I'd say like 80% of it is planned, and then 20% you do surprise yourself in the things that come to you while writing in the form you give it. So that stream of consciousness bit also came up in in chapter one a lot, because before I wrote that, I could not start with it was actually kind of quite linear in its own like, because, if you notice, the order of the questions is also kind of chronological, or kind of like, first I dealt with this, and then I dealt with this, and then this, and now finally I'm here so there. And I'm a huge fan of linearity, like, as a story, like, yeah, it's kind of traditional, but I think it's a really good way to keep I'm hooked when a narrative is linear, because I'm like, What's going to happen next and what's going to happen next? So, yeah, that was, that was what went into, hopefully, the free flowing. This is then, like, kind of architected, but also improvised, very

Tara Khandelwal: 34:39

organic, yeah. And also wanted to ask, you know, what goes into making good personal essay? Because I see more and more people wanting to write about their lives. So how did you do it in a way that is interesting to a reader and adding, you know, some value, like, what are some tips? I mean, personal essays

Sanjana Ramachandran: 34:56

are great. And the first I read a lot of David. Sadhas when I was turning 2122 it's also when I started journaling on a daily basis. So I think personal essays I'd have to prepare for, like a workshop or something on this. I think if I'm to give, like a properly, accurate answer. But a few things, I think, is to actually be honest. The harder part if, if you're a good writer, the hardest part, I think, is not the sentence or the craft of putting a sentence together, but actually being in touch with your feelings and all so all of the things that people are afraid to say, like the irritations we've had at work or somebody said something that rubbed you off the wrong way. I mean, these are things that I think we mostly try to shove and act like they don't happen to us or we're unaffected by but if you're in touch with those emotions, those difficult emotions, that's, I think, those are the scenes for good essays, like a conflict, or some, or some, some, you know, difficult feeling, and you want to trace back its roots and examine all of its like history, its contours. So I think it has to be rooted in emotional honesty. It has to be rooted in something interesting and unusual and difficult, maybe. And I think they are a great means of, like, giving your like honoring your life more than like. I think a lot of what I'm grappling with right now the book comes out, is like, there's some people, again, like I said, right? It's, is it, is it by this? Or how many copies is it going to sell? Or has it by like penguin this? That is the external expectation of of what writers should be, or writing should be to you. But for most, I think it's a way of knowing yourself and understanding it, and making your life entertaining in some way and therefore bearable to you. So I'd say I read a lot, be in touch with your feelings, and do not shy away from them, and be honest in all their difficulty. And I love all the metaphors on the quotes on writing that compare it to bleeding, because it is like bleeding on a page. So feel free

Tara Khandelwal: 36:55

to do that. Yeah, I totally agree with that. I think honesty is so important. So I had written a personal essay that got published in soup magazine, and it was about, basically, like, how is diagnosed with, like, pre diabetes and like, sugar and all of that, and I publish it. And then my dad was like, Oh, why are you saying all these things in public? Yeah. I mean, people will have objections and stuff. I think the honesty of it is what makes it interesting,

Sanjana Ramachandran: 37:22

right and entertaining. Also, like, I think if I focus less on the personal service and the you know, narrative making of your own life and how much that can benefit you, and more on purely, like, wizardry of sentences and being entertaining, etc, like, I think that's a worthy goal to strive for. On, it's like, honestly, it's very fun being a writer for the most part, although it's harrowing for a lot of it, but the top level, like, when you're done with the piece, and you, I don't really read a lot of my work, but I think it's, it's strangely become in tune with who I am also, even though, like, like, the way I think, and everything. So I do feel, like, when I when I promote it, promote it, etc. I don't feel squeamish. So I think when you are true to yourself, like there's a love of the craft also that comes in when you're writing, etc, that you can really go deep in and try to understand what makes a good essay, and that that you will have your own opinion of it, versus all the craft books like I have, I would say a lot of my way of coming to write has just been putting my thoughts down in the way that my mind is telling me to I think the more you just Journal, the more you just write for yourself, the more the second part, also the writing for an audience, you start to maybe understand what that involves, what makes something entertaining. Um, one thing I

Tara Khandelwal: 38:41

wanted to ask is your journey to getting published, you know, because lots of people ask question, yeah, what is your journey to getting published? And tell me what the Shashi, I know we're not talking about brands and all, but tell me what the Shashi said would love.

Sanjana Ramachandran: 38:53

Uh, my journey to getting published was, yeah, I think it's just like I always knew I had to be, like, creative, like, creative, creative, not just working with creative people or managing creative people, which is what in my you know, post engineering, post MBA, life. I was in marketing, which I joined because, like, I took, took up that field and career path because I knew it was creative. But, like, marketing is not advertising. You will not be the person writing the ads or being creative. It's mostly a lot of project management, getting things together and making things happen. A lot of analysis, also, which people think the job does not involve. Yeah, so at some point, as I knew, like I had, as I understood, that's what marketing was, the creative bug, or like, the feeling of myself being the creative person I would sort of like, in meetings, be part of where people would be like, Oh, she has a creative bent, but the actual creative people are sitting there that used to really irritate me, because I am more creative than, like, you know, all of that. So I just had this need to write and to be like, the one creating stories. I was like, I'll help. Be out in the marketing capacity and do all of these things, but my secret agenda was also to get a byline there. So in about the two months of staying there, I did a lot of work for them on the marketing front, they were still like looking at salesy and advertising led strategies for their magazine. But subscriptions were just popping off in the world. At that time, in mid 2019 the Ken had just sort of started up. So I was like, maybe you want to pivot to subscription. So the first month was about that, but then I was also reading Raja Gupta's memo that had just come out at that time, and I saw it on somebody's desk there, and I was like, Why is this here? And we're like, maybe doing a piece on it. Yeah, I'm reading it. And she called me a couple of days later, and she was like, his launch event is happening. Do you want to go report and see if you can come up with the piece? So I went to the launch event, I read the book, and I dug into some past, you know, essays about Raja Gupta's insider trading scam, and there were a lot of, like, interesting plot holes, etc, there. So I was like, I can see a piece forming here. And I pitched it to them, and they let me write it, and they carried it a couple of months later. So, yeah, I mean, you use one byline to get another byline. I think 52 was the next big by pitch for me. I always had that Sanjana story in mind. And there were very few publications who had that long form thing the way I was imagining it, like a very New Yorker style start from, like, go many levels deep, lot of analysis. I was reading a lot of I have read a bunch of narrative non fiction, so I really love Tom Wolf, and that crop of that era of writing from American journalism, um, so I pitched it to 52 they kind of got the piece, and then they really bought into it as we worked on the story, and it turned out to be super viral. So then that led to another piece with 62 so I mean, just like I they constantly pitching to being again in touch with your ideas and your thoughts and feelings and understanding what will fit on what kind of website and but that is the story of how I got published, and went on from the book also came. So, like I said, mid 2020 when I was going through this, like creative redirection crisis, where I had to create a lot of stuff, the book was one of the ideas that I was focused on. And I found out about. So the 52 essay happened. I also found out about South Asia speaks, the fellowship that I was accepted to in the 2022 class, and I pitched the book as a project to them, like, basically I had, by then, the synopsis, the questions, a little bit of the research, and maybe two chapters like like the namesake. I had sort of already written some drafts of what the book would look like, and because of the like, it, followed on the cues of the namesake. So my mentor at the fellowship, Sanam Mahar, who's been an amazing ally through this journey, she read that essay. She really liked it. She took my book as a project, and that's also when I like that. That's when I started writing it more. And then I found an agent, kanesh Gupta, who we met on Twitter. He also liked the premise of the book, and he immediately saw, like what it was going for, and like the sit with what's been achieved and other other writing, other countries. And it was a long journey. All of this was like eight, nine months apart each so the fellowship, and then finding the agent, and then seven months after that, we pitched it to a bunch of publishers. We had like different options, and Alice was the best to go with. And then the rest, like 80% of the book was left to right at that point. So I then, then there was this time I started writing the most. So over this three, three year journey where there was some milestones that regard were regarding the book. A lot of it was also just publishing normal stuff. But after I got the publisher, I wrote the remaining 80, 90% of the book over eight or nine months, then they edited it for six months or so. And and coming to your next question, well, I just told Ganesh one day that, like, I want more help with everything else. I've spent a lot of time and my whole life writing this, but I need to make this, you know what it is. And so we made, I made this list of like, everybody who I thought would be a good reader or reviewer of the blob, and included many names, because these are all busy people, and I knew they would be many of you get many no's. But if we reached out to say 2030 people, maybe five would say yes. So Shashi, Thabo was one of them. We had, like a lot of other names in the list, and a lot of the other blurbs that we have are also, I think, really cool. So yeah, the short story is, operationally, i i as a marketing brain, I knew exactly what all you could do to make something a product. I pushed some people to help me get it. And the long story is, I've been at this for a few years now. I had the Amit Verma podcast a couple of months ago. I have like these bylines, etc. So I mean, if you keep at it, and you keep at your craft, and you're, you know. It'll get there basically. Oh,

Tara Khandelwal: 45:02

that's really cool. I think it'll be very inspiring for anyone listening out there who wants to get published. What is next for you? What are you working on next? I

Sanjana Ramachandran: 45:13

am working, and I think I'm still working on the book. It's like, it's really crazy to me to be it in flesh and blood. I've almost not been like when I see it, I just like, I'm very overwhelmed because I'm like, should I made this? And now I have to, like, read it and live up to it, and I'm, surprisingly, I'm not, like, there are the critical thoughts and the things that I think would be better, they've kind of dimmed a bit, because there's like, this overwhelming feeling of, like, genuine appreciation and wonder that this has happened at all. So I'm going to focus on getting this out there a lot. And I have a few ideas on what I might do next. There's a newsletter series brewing in my mind, more business writing, because that's what I did for the ken but hopefully something like, yeah,

Tara Khandelwal: 46:00

something very much looking forward to it, because I really like these kind of books. You know, I love non fiction. And another book recommendation I have, I think many of our listeners are already know of it is desperately seeking Shah Rukh, which I think was also really interesting book and made me think about how I am,

Sanjana Ramachandran: 46:22

the way I am, but you know, like I've also had my eyes on fiction for a bit, yeah, fiction like this, again, like hyper lucid protagonist going through life feeling shocked. I would

Tara Khandelwal: 46:36

love to read that as well. Thank

Unknown: 46:38

you so much. Yeah, this was really fun.

Tara Khandelwal: 46:41

Hope you enjoyed this episode of Books and Beyond with bound.

Michelle D'costa: 46:45

This podcast is created by bound, a company that helps you grow through stories. Find us at bound India on all social media platforms.

Tara Khandelwal: 46:54

Tune in every Wednesday as we peek into the lives and minds of some brilliant authors from India and South Asia the.