#502 | The #1 Antidote to Shame

In this episode of Evolve Ventures Tech, we take on shame, the kind that gets stuck in the nervous system, shapes identity, and convinces you there is no way out. We look at why shame feels so heavy, how it can become tied to self-worth, and why compassion may be far more powerful than most people realize.

This episode brings together psychology, emotional regulation, nervous system awareness, and real human honesty for anyone who has ever felt trapped by the belief that something is wrong with them. If shame has been running the room, it might be time to stop calling it your personality and start questioning its credentials.

Episode Resources:
1. Mindfulness-Based Compassion Technique, Berkeley
2. Compassion vs. Empathy in The Brain
3. Study on Compassion in the Brain
4. Empathy, Compassion vs. Sympathy
5. Dr. Paul Ekman on Compassion

Here are related episodes that build on today’s conversation:
#499 | The Real Reason People Give Up On Their Dreams (Part 2) - https://apple.co/4t52aPt
#483 | How to Hold Two Truths At the Same Time - https://apple.co/4tSwvBR

Learn more about:
🤝 Out of the Mud (OOTM) - "Being Strong Is Exhausting: The Mental Health Cost of Always Holding It Together" - https://us02web.zoom.us/meeting/register/IykObX8eR7ixJaQ-qqZogw#/registration

🌱 The #YouDoYou Therapy Program gives you support when and how you need it. No pressure. Just real help. Start your free 7-day trial today - https://buy.stripe.com/fZe8Avdfx8bW9gcfZc

_________________

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Show notes:
(3:15) Two views on healthy shame
(10:41) Why shame exists in humans
(18:27) What makes shame harmful
(21:08) Defining shame in the body
(26:48) Julie gives a shoutout to Evolve Ventures and Bianca for the transformative coaching she received that made a huge impact in her life.
(27:42) Shame as a call to action
(35:36) The antidote that seems too simple
(48:06) Using STOP to meet shame
(52:35) Outro

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(Stay tuned for this coming Monday’s episode!)

Transcript

Bianca Thomas

(0:00) Shame is like this black sludge. (0:07) It feels like it's seeping through your veins. (0:11) It's keeping you stuck.(0:13) It's completely encompassing you. (0:17) Like you're stuck in the mud. (0:19) You're like stuck in tar and you can't get out.(0:23) And when you're in shame, it feels like there's no escape.

Bianca Thomas

(0:29) We're going to provide that escape for you today.

Emilia Smith

(0:34) And you no longer have to be shame's prisoner. (0:39) When shame is in that nervous system and has zero escape, you become the prisoner of your own emotional experiences.

Bianca Thomas

(0:49) Most of us are looking for hope, answers to the madness, certainty that we'll be okay, and someone safe to help guide us through the most challenging parts of our lives. (1:00) In a world that's changing and evolving every single day, where chaos, uncertainty, and cycles we never chose wreak havoc on our lives, it's easy to feel lost, hopeless, and scared of what the future will hold.

Emilia Smith

(1:16) Evolve Ventures is here to provide that hope, direction, and data-driven strategies to growth-minded human beings just like you every Monday and Thursdays, where each new episode is filled with vulnerable stories, interesting lessons, and simple tools you can use that will help you evolve into the person you were always meant to be. (1:37) My name is Emilia. (1:38) And I'm Bianca.(1:40) And as the co-founders of Evolve Ventures, we are so grateful to be a part of your evolution. (1:45) Let's get into it.

Bianca Thomas

(1:46) Hey everybody, it's Bianca.

Emilia Smith

(1:49) Welcome back, Evolvers. (1:50) It's Emilia. (1:51) Welcome to episode 502, The Number One Antidote to Shame.(1:56) Bianca, I'm super excited to do this episode. (1:58) And when I saw it on the lineup, I'm like, oh, they're gonna get an episode today. (2:04) And for anyone that's joining us, we are really grateful that you clicked on this episode, because if you clicked on this episode, that means that in some way, shape, or form, you are curious, which is great.(2:15) Curiosity is so important when it comes to shame. (2:18) Maybe there's a lot of what we're gonna be talking about you're feeling. (2:22) And either way, you are here and you're open to the antidote to getting out to no longer being the prisoner or stuck in the mud of what shame really does feel like in our nervous system.(2:33) And so per Bianca's promise earlier, we're gonna talk about that. (2:36) And we're gonna make sure that by the end of this episode, you know why shame exists. (2:43) Most importantly, you know how to practice the antidote in your own unique life so that you can actually feel a little bit of more expansiveness, maybe relief.(2:58) And that freedom that I find so many people are seeking when they have had only shame in their immune system.

Bianca Thomas

(3:13) Big breath for this one.

Bianca Thomas

(3:15) Here's where I want to get us started. (3:17) So I have two people in mind whose work have been very, very influential when it comes to the topic of shame. (3:27) One of them is Brene Brown, who her claim to fame at this point has been discussing shame and vulnerability and the intersections of that.(3:41) And her big claim is that there is no such thing as good shame. (3:44) Shame is terrible. (3:45) It doesn't benefit or serve at all.(3:49) Then we have John Bradshaw, who he, to my understanding, and I'm sure you know more about this than I do. (3:58) He started his research on shame way before Brown got famous for discussing it. (4:06) He was researching it.(4:07) He wrote an entire book called Healing the Shame that Finds You. (4:10) Phenomenal. (4:11) He actually has a counterpoint.(4:14) He identifies two different types of shame. (4:17) One of them, I'm just going to use simple layman terms. (4:21) One of them is healthy shame.(4:22) One of them is toxic, unhealthy shame. (4:24) And he says that actually some shame is actually good, productive, adaptive for humans and for the human system. (4:37) Let's start there and kind of giving our synopsis on that.(4:45) What shame is, what does it do, and then what is that antidote for it?

Emilia Smith

(4:55) Yeah. (4:56) And Bianca, I'm going to ask you for the listeners to Bradshaw's work, and then we'll kind of bring Renee Brown's work, weave through it, understand where this episode kind of came from. (5:08) Because I know that when you read his book, I know that that was something that had a really big impact on you.(5:15) That book was brutal. (5:18) Just FYI. (5:19) Phenomenal, but brutal.(5:21) Right. (5:21) I'm so sorry. (5:22) And I'm glad that you still read it.(5:25) I know we had also done an Out of the Mud. (5:27) So for anyone that's a new listener or is joining us on this Evolve journey, we host a free live virtual event every single month with the Evolve community, which is just really incredible because we're able to, it's literally called Get Out of the Mud, right? (5:44) OOTM.(5:44) If you ever see that, it's Out of the Mud, which to some essence of this, this is what binds us, what gets us stuck is so many of the topics that we talk about. (5:54) But one of them primarily is shame. (5:57) And so long story short, we had done an Out of the Mud on this specifically.(6:03) And I saw Bradshaw's work weaved in as did I see Brené Brown's work and multiple people that are kind of in and around this topic and have studied it. (6:14) So when you first read, you first started with Brené's work learning about shame, right? (6:22) OK.(6:24) What in reading Bradshaw's work, hearing that shame, right? (6:30) The proposal that there is a functional and adaptive form of shame and there is so that's the quote unquote healthy shame, right? (6:39) His claims.(6:40) And there is an unhealthy, maladaptive, unproductive type of shame. (6:44) What was that like for you to experience the split? (6:47) Because most people have that kind of journey of learning a little bit about Brené Brown's work, understanding shame and vulnerability topical level, and then the healing and shame that binds us is like far more deep into the clinical of the scientist that is willing to kind of present his own objections, which I think is just tremendous personally.(7:08) So what was that like starting with shame is just the worst thing ever. (7:11) There's no good in kind of adopting some of that Brené Brown's mindset around that and then seeing like, oh, there's actually a little bit of a split here. (7:20) Where do I stand on this?(7:22) Talk to me about what that was like for you and then we'll kind of unfold some of the details from there.

Bianca Thomas

(7:32) Clinically, I loved it.

Bianca Thomas

(7:35) Personally, it felt like it rocked me because hearing Brené on the personal, it just it it allowed for it to be black and white. (7:51) And for those of you who don't know me, hi, my name is Bianca. (7:57) I am the queen of black and white thinking.(8:00) It just is what it is. (8:05) So. (8:09) It allowed the parts of me that that feel massive shame and that struggle with shame every day and that were struggling with my own sense of self-worth and my own sense of self-love at the time to feel seen in that this is bad.(8:30) This is as bad as I think it is. (8:32) Oh, I'm not supposed to have this. (8:34) And then just her communication style in general, it's just so warm and inviting and so loving and so compassionate.(8:46) And I really needed that at the time I needed. (8:50) I needed to feel really seen in my experiences and that therapist part of me was like when when I then heard that there was a. (9:05) Alternate side to this, it was like, oh, my God, yes, this makes so much sense.(9:12) And then I started teaching. (9:13) It's a client. (9:14) And now it's it's really embedded in the work that I do.(9:17) The way that I see it now is it's a stepladder. (9:20) I think you need to I think you need to experience Brené before you can then go to the next level of John Bradshaw and say, OK. (9:33) Brené is talking about this one side of shame now that we kind of have that understanding.(9:39) Let's bring in the other one. (9:42) Let's see this a little more dynamically. (9:44) Let's see this a little bit more nuanced and understand why shame actually originated, where it comes from, the function and purpose of it, where it's actually beneficial.(9:58) And where it's not and then how to navigate where it's not.

Emilia Smith

(10:06) Thank you for speaking on both the behalf of the clinical and the therapist and on your own personal experiences. (10:13) And I want the listeners, when they join us, to understand we are humans. (10:18) We take off that clinical practitioner hat and we experience things just like you do.(10:25) And so we have this perspective to guide you through what your evolved journey is going to be like. (10:32) And also we know from personal experience what it looks and feels like. (10:36) So I think that that's really important.(10:38) And I'll just kind of share my personal journey on understanding shame. (10:44) So I come from a very a background of more why at the most deepest existential level. (10:52) So I remember when I was studying psychology back in high school and in high school, shame, although it wasn't really talked about back then, it was obviously something that was being studied.(11:04) And in the later years of high school, I tried to understand shame from the standpoint of evolutionary biology. (11:12) Why do we have specific emotions? (11:14) And what is that most animalistic form of human beings?(11:19) And what is the biological purpose? (11:23) I think from that kind of standpoint. (11:24) And so that approach to shame from that angle was as this little scientist of like, OK, shame's a quote unquote emotion.(11:34) It's this feeling. (11:35) It's like, what does it do for us? (11:37) Because obviously, if it's so profound and so prevalent, because I had research, just like how much it was prevalent in people blew my freaking brain.(11:45) And I don't think to be honest, looking back, I don't think that I could wrap my head around what I understood looking back from this 31 year old perspective. (11:54) But in understanding that it served a crucial, crucial element of our species as human beings are a crucial element of emotion that comes and stems from social survival and mechanicalistically helps us to remain in concert and in good standing socially with our tribe. (12:19) It got me super curious about everything that connects to shame and the antidote that we're going to talk about today.(12:26) So shame coming from that angle as a scientist, what is it neurobiologically doing? (12:34) What is it mechanically doing and why the heck should we care about it? (12:39) And that's kind of what led me into a little bit more of Brene Brown's work, which I'm with you.(12:44) I think that the latter is really helpful for someone who is having reading that material than noticing and observing self. (12:52) And Bradshaw's work was obviously when I first learned about shame. (12:57) So that was trickled in to that basic level research.(13:01) So evolutionary approach, then Bradshaw was in and out of there, but I didn't know it really that much at the time. (13:09) I didn't really care about the who I cared about, like what the research was saying. (13:12) And then book wise, Brene's work entered into the equation.(13:17) And then and through that, a lot of the trauma cohort studies and research papers that we were reading integrated obviously those key players and then learning from it from a trauma neurobiological standpoint kind of weaved all of my experiences together with that. (13:33) So understanding shame as a functional, like a functional standpoint, I always kind of had that standpoint of shame is actually really adaptive. (13:45) I understand what Brene Brown's work is saying, but there is a component of it from a scientific standpoint, why it's been here the whole time.(13:54) And that's why it's so hard to get rid of, especially as we don't know ourselves and don't know the evolutionary understanding of how did we come to evolve the way in which we have. (14:08) If we're not studying that, it's going to feel like a huge mirror to experience shame and then study shame. (14:15) That's why I love one of Brene's quotes is like, when I sit down on an airplane, people ask me, you know, what do I do for work?(14:21) And I'm like, oh, I'm a researcher for shame. (14:23) And it literally ends the conversation. (14:25) And she's like, if I don't want to have a conversation, that's all I need to say.(14:27) People don't want to go near that with a 10 foot pole. (14:30) She's like, I study shame and vulnerability. (14:32) And they're like, conversation ends.(14:36) Right. (14:36) So so to all of that, I think that it is important. (14:43) Again, like I said, for.(14:45) You, as you're listening to this, Bianca and I have run in to shame and experience shame in so many different areas of our life, because to be human, right, like it's kind of embedded in your I don't want to say programming, but it's embedded within the social survival mechanisms that are unconsciously spoken growing up. (15:06) And I don't have shame. (15:07) What are you talking about?(15:09) Right. (15:10) That's what we all say to ourselves unconsciously. (15:13) But I think like we experience shame when we're so young, we don't realize how that wires us and how it acts as that alarm system to not go near certain behaviors, to never go out and explore other behaviors.(15:29) And when when I find this showing up the most and and you'll see it specifically in different age groups, but. (15:38) Men and women go through shame full behaviors throughout their entire life, but usually those behaviors are determined shameful based on our social currency or our culture, our family systems, et cetera. (15:54) So our families or our friend group are usually the people that determine what is shameful or these bigger quote unquote systems at play when we're really, really young determine what you shouldn't be doing because otherwise you will be ostracized or rejected from the quote unquote group.(16:12) And so it's a really big motivator for us to stay in this little box when it comes to social survival and social. (16:20) It's a quote unquote pro social behavior, but it has genuine implications when it comes to the reactivity that we experience when it comes to what we feel inside that kind of black sludge that you had mentioned, Bianca. (16:37) And ultimately, it actually can link to physical pain.(16:40) And if left unchecked. (16:42) And if we don't practice what we're going to talk about as the antidote actively, not passively, but actively in our life, shame can take over and rearrange our brain and our nervous system to where we literally end up with chronic illnesses. (16:59) And one of the things that you can look at the research shows again and again, especially with trauma survivors, anyone that is going through shame or a shameful experience and doesn't actually have anyone to process that with, that leads to really harmful effects.(17:15) And so, hey, Dear Evolver, you got some shame. (17:20) We got some shame. (17:21) And to not talk about it, let's that shame exist in the system without having a healthy functional outlet.(17:29) So you're in the right place. (17:32) And ultimately, I think that seeing your shame as the worst thing ever, rather than recognizing and seeing it as a alarm system that is an adaptive survival system that before you were consciously aware, it became that alarm for you how to survive. (17:52) Because if you were ostracized from the tribe, your family, your culture, et cetera, your gender even, there would be actual implications.(18:00) And again, that evolved from a very, very primitive standpoint. (18:05) And if you want to kind of see some of that, there's an incredible documentary on I believe it's Netflix called Chimp Empire. (18:16) And that is really powerful to really see what happens when we are not, quote unquote, acting within alignment of the tribe and the social norms.

Emilia Smith

(18:27) So yeah.

Bianca Thomas

(18:30) Shame is not, it's not shame that's bad. (18:36) It's what we're tying our shame to. (18:41) If I'm going to use a very crass example, I apologize for anyone that this might feel a little bit overwhelming, but this is, I think, a good example.(18:51) If we are proactively shaming people to not rape, to not murder, that is an adaptive tool. (19:00) This is a terrible thing. (19:01) If you do this, it means X, Y, and Z about you.(19:05) Do not do that. (19:07) That is a proactive measure of shame that helps people to stay in line and keep the group, keep the tribe environment safe. (19:21) So make sense when we are saying, Hey, and again, this might sound crass, but please bear with me because I hear this all the time.(19:32) Don't be fat because if you're fat, X, Y, and Z, that's not an adaptive use of shame. (19:39) That is now taking societal norms and expectations that have been created, modified, and altered to benefit a select few and inducing harm onto people. (19:58) So the pros don't outweigh the cons in that.

Emilia Smith

(20:02) Yeah.

Bianca Thomas

(20:03) It is not adaptive. (20:05) It is not effective. (20:06) So it's not necessarily the shame that's bad.(20:12) It's what we're using shame for, what we're using shame to do, and then how we are responding to that shame. (20:19) Are you internalizing that shame and allowing it to become a part of your identity that I am a bad person? (20:30) This means all of these very harmful and destructive things about me, or are you going to do what we are now going to dive into, which is actually the healthy, adaptive, appropriate mechanism by which to navigate shame?

Emilia Smith

(20:56) So shame in its most base form, if we're really just thinking about what is the, like, in order to apply an antidote, you have to understand what you're applying the antidote to. (21:11) So if you don't know what shame is at this point, let us provide a definition. (21:16) And ultimately, I want you thinking about this definition, not just in the intellectual concept element.(21:23) I want you to hear it and recognize, like, where in your body, if you have capacity, where in your body do you feel this when the words come out of my mouth? (21:34) Okay. (21:35) That is going to be incredibly powerful as your ability to apply and the practice of applying what we're going to be talking about as the antidote, because it's like you need to understand what it is and where it's being held.(21:54) Otherwise, it's kind of like putting a blindfold over and hoping that these strategies are going to work. (21:59) Okay. (21:59) So shame at its core, it's an intense, painful emotion involving deep feelings of inadequacy.(22:08) So I am inadequate. (22:10) I'm incompetent, right? (22:13) Unworthiness.(22:14) I'm unworthy of life. (22:17) I am unworthy of insert the blank. (22:19) I'm unworthy of love.(22:21) I am undeserving or defectiveness. (22:25) So I am defective at the core. (22:27) I am wrong.(22:29) I am bad. (22:29) And what that does, all of that, quote unquote, intense emotion, what that does is that that brings this huge, huge emotional state of I am a failure. (22:41) This perception that you are a failure to meet a personal or social standard.(22:48) Shame then shows up in the body to help alarm again, that alarm system, sound the alarm that you are a failure and this perceived failure to meet your personal or your social standards is what you're left with. (23:03) And that failure in your body, that's the shame. (23:07) That's that sludge.(23:08) That's that emotional feeling of that imprisonment of that gunk of that muck. (23:13) Right. (23:14) And so where in your body do you genuinely feel and deeply believe this is where belief systems encourage us to feel that continuously.(23:24) Right. (23:24) To what Bianca said, what we link it to and what shame means. (23:28) It's the difference between I am.(23:30) I have done something bad or something out of alignment or something not great. (23:35) And I am bad. (23:37) So at your core, shame wraps around that core of who you are as a human being, your worth, your deservancy, your effectiveness, your inadequacy.(23:49) So that. (23:50) And what shame does to you and how you respond to shame is called a shame response system. (23:57) So we all have certain shame triggers, our shame trigger triggers, otherwise known as a shame cue.(24:08) So, for example, this could be, let's say you're in a you're on the track with a couple of friends and you guys say, let's let's try to time our 300 meter sprint. (24:17) And let's say all of a sudden you you before the quote unquote gun goes off, that signals you guys go start. (24:25) You and your friends are running and then.(24:28) Right. (24:28) So like in your mind, you're kind of playing that scenario out before that gun goes off, you're like, OK, I'm going to run it in, let's say, 30 seconds or whatever it is. (24:37) Right.(24:37) You have this state. (24:39) Promise. (24:41) Thought.(24:42) And then the gun goes off, you and your friends are after it and you actually fall below that quote unquote standard that idealize that perception of your personal best there or what your friend group has unspoken expectations that you would at least complete this 300 meter and like under 30 seconds. (25:02) Like, OK, I'm not a track runner, so I don't know those stats, but. (25:06) That's there.(25:07) What happens in the aftermath, you're like shook and you're wondering like, OK, that was a lot. (25:14) But it's a little bit like this feeling inside. (25:18) I'm wildly inadequate.(25:20) I like not going to be a part of this group like, oh, my goodness, that's when those automatic thoughts start to come in, like maybe this group, like maybe people like all these automatic negative thoughts. (25:31) That's where that comes in. (25:32) So then what do you do and how do you respond to that?(25:34) That's where that desire to hide, desire to withdraw or desire to attack yourself or attack them. (25:40) You guys, you guys, you went off before the gun like that's that's your shame response system. (25:46) All of what you do after that is the shame response system.(25:50) And in episode four hundred ninety nine, I started to kind of talk about that at, I believe, the 30 minute mark about the thirty thirty five minute mark. (26:00) Thirty five. (26:01) Yeah.(26:01) And so our shame response system, again, shame that emotion develops this whole psychological immune system operating system of how we navigate that shame. (26:13) So it's a whole thing. (26:14) Everyone has their own unique breakdown.(26:16) And if you're someone that wants to explore that deeper, what your unique shame response system is, how you go about it, what your shame cues or shame triggers are. (26:23) Same thing. (26:23) The beach is a really big shame trigger for a lot of people.(26:26) Body image stuff. (26:27) There's so much there. (26:29) Right.(26:29) How you respond is unique to you. (26:31) OK, but you're not alone in that. (26:33) So if you want specific definition on there, send send us a DM.(26:38) But I want to make sure that we again we clock what shame is. (26:42) We understand what it feels like and we understand at the core what it is. (26:46) Bianca, anything to add on that before we really start to move forward into the antidotes?

Julie Kilgore

(26:51) Hi, everybody. (26:52) I wanted to jump on here. (26:53) My name is Julie and I wanted to give a huge shout out to Evolve Ventures and to my coaching with Bianca.(27:00) I'm like many of you. (27:02) It's like I've read all the books, suffered from depression on medications, tried everything. (27:07) And then I did a free coaching with Bianca.(27:10) Free, right? (27:11) Oh, my gosh. (27:12) That day changed my life.(27:13) I blurted out Bianca things that I had never even really thought about myself. (27:18) And I ended up setting up coaching with her. (27:20) And I know so many of us say, oh, we can't afford coaching.(27:22) But let me tell you, all those little things to make you feel better, use that money to invest in you because you don't need those cookies to feel happy anymore. (27:30) You don't need those restaurants to feel happy and more when you know how to be happy yourself. (27:34) I can now acknowledge things and I can work through it.(27:38) I definitely recommend Evolve Ventures and Bianca.

Bianca Thomas

(27:42) Yeah, just one thing. (27:43) So if you think of any emotion, shame included, what is the function of an emotion? (27:50) We speak on this all the time here at Evolve and in these episodes in particular.(27:56) An emotion is a signal to action. (27:59) An emotion is a signal to drive you forward toward a certain behavior or away from others or away from a behavior. (28:12) Exactly.(28:14) If you think of shame, the purpose of shame is to get you to not do things or to get you to do things based on what the principle of an emotion is. (28:27) So an emotion is a physiological signal that you experience throughout your body that is a call to action. (28:35) So if shame is about morality and being a good or a not good person, then shame is actually an incredibly helpful and adaptive emotion.(28:50) The challenge with it is what we do with that shame. (28:58) Does it get internalized in and of itself? (29:03) So if that person were to then start to have those feelings of inadequacy, I'm not good enough.(29:10) I'm not competent. (29:11) If they were to then allow that to make them collapse and shut down and to continue those negative destructive belief cycles, that is when shame is harmful. (29:26) That is the toxic shame that John Bradshaw talks about.(29:30) But if this person instead were to say, I feel terrible about this. (29:38) I don't feel good enough. (29:39) I don't feel capable.(29:40) I don't feel competent. (29:42) I want to attack myself. (29:45) But instead, here's what I'm going to do.(29:48) I'm going to go get better. (29:50) I'm going to go figure out what it is that I need to do because I feel this inadequacy and I don't like feeling not good enough. (29:58) I'm going to use this signal for the function that it is and the purpose that it serves to then go do something to change my behavior or to change my thoughts to then generate a new or improved sense of self or to help change the way that I am feeling about myself.(30:20) That is its function. (30:22) That is its purpose. (30:23) That is healthy.(30:24) But that's not what's happening. (30:26) What most people do is they feel that inadequacy and then it just completely consumes them because we don't have the tools to regulate difficult emotions. (30:38) And when shame is thrown at you as a control mechanism, it makes a lot of sense that you're not going to have the tools to be able to do that.

Emilia Smith

(30:47) Right. (30:48) And to that end, Bianca, I'm so glad you brought that forward. (30:50) To that end, this is where most of us, if we have a fixed mindset and that's been encouraged our whole life, which likely if you're experiencing shame and it's developing into toxic sludge, for lack of better words, you're collapsing.(31:04) You have grown up with people or you have not had a choice in who has surrounded you yet or for the large developing years of your life. (31:13) And therefore, you've developed a fixed mindset about your abilities to change. (31:18) And so this is where it's so powerful to have a growth mindset, because that belief that I can change, even unconsciously, I can change.(31:26) Shame is a signal, just like every other emotion. (31:29) It's an invitation. (31:30) It's a call to action.(31:30) And it's this helper, this alarm system to try to help me understand where I'm swerving out of alignment with, yes, maybe these social behaviors from, again, social standards or maybe out of alignment with who I aspire to be and my values. (31:46) And when you pair that growth mindset, I can change. (31:49) I can learn new things.(31:50) And with enough time and effort, I can apply these practices to any shameful experience. (31:58) That is a game changer. (32:01) And that's the reactive approach, right?(32:04) In this context, we're talking about the reactive approach when you apply that antidote. (32:10) And what that antidote is, we're going to say in just a moment. (32:14) There's a way to proactively, though, upstream, navigate and prevent, reduce the odds that your emotional experience has shame embedded within it.(32:25) Maybe that's a whole other conversation, Bianca, on this proactive shame reduction and reactive shame reduction.

Bianca Thomas

(32:34) But either way, does that feel reactive, toxic shame reduction with you? (32:41) Yep. (32:42) With you.(32:42) Yeah. (32:43) I'm not saying that for you. (32:44) I'm saying that for our listeners.(32:46) Like great. (32:48) Proactive helps with healthy shame. (32:50) Reactive is harmful shame.(32:52) As simply put, as I can put that. (32:54) Yep.

Emilia Smith

(32:55) Great. (32:55) OK. (32:56) So is there anything that you want to add prior to weaving into our antidotes?

Bianca Thomas

(33:02) It's just, it is a call to action. (33:04) If we give ourselves permission to see our emotions as a call to action and we stop being afraid of them, it allows us to be able to navigate through them the way we are supposed to. (33:18) And I say this as someone who is still on my own journey toward doing that.(33:23) I can't tell you the amount of times that I have upward comparison to Amelia, which is not fair to her by any stretch, but it just is true. (33:33) And I felt terrible about myself because I sunk into that toxic shame. (33:38) I'm never going to be as good as her.(33:40) I'm not as capable as her. (33:41) I'm never going to be as good of a person as her. (33:44) Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.(33:46) Rather than, and this is what I am actively working on and what we're about to dive into, utilizing this antidote and then making a game plan for me of, OK, that's what I can aspire to. (34:00) What's my version of that, which is what I'm actively working on in our work together, in our coaching together, and in the, you know, other coaching that I get with Alan.

Emilia Smith

(34:11) Yep, absolutely. (34:13) And so as you are, as we all navigate shame, this is where if you don't know what your shame response system is, having that mapped, like I do this with couples, I do this with individuals, like that is one of the biggest tools that you can have in your tool belt because when you understand how your system works, you can respond to it more effectively in alignment with your values. (34:35) It's not going to be overnight, but you again, knowing how your system acts in the face of shame, what the triggers are, what the cues are, how you respond, and then what parts, this is a whole nother layer of IFS adding into it, but what parts are more responsible for responding in that matter.(34:52) You literally have such the cheat codes. (34:55) It's like going to a test that is one of the hardest tests in the world and having literally a tutor that says, hey, by the way, I have all the answers to the test. (35:06) If you want to do excellent on this, I'm not going to reveal the answers to you, but I'm going to double check if you know what the answers are.(35:14) And then after we go through that assessment, I'm going to actually let you know what the answers are so that we can compare how off you were and you can understand what the accurate response is. (35:27) And ultimately, if you want to reverse engineer that, here's what we're going to do to get from where you currently were at to where you want to be. (35:35) Okay.(35:35) So it's huge. (35:36) Okay. (35:36) So what is the antidote to shame?(35:39) Like I said, in episode 499, it is wild how when we share this, a lot of people actually are like, really? (35:49) It seems like this, like such insignificant antidote. (35:54) But sometimes some of the most seemingly insignificant elements are those that are the most powerful.(36:01) Why? (36:02) Because at its core, the practice and the application of it in your nervous system, in your life, that in practice is not simple. (36:13) It is not easy.(36:15) And for anyone who practices the antidote and weaving it in their every single day, developing a practice with it, I mean, it is freaking brutal. (36:28) But when you have someone who already is further along on the journey and on their own practice, and has made sure that this is part of who they are, it makes it so much easier for you. (36:42) Why?(36:43) Because your mirror neurons will fire so much faster. (36:48) You will jump the learning curve of what that feels like, how to do it in your nervous system. (36:53) And ultimately, you will pretty much have training wheels that allow you to develop it faster.(36:59) So what is the antidote to shame? (37:02) The number one antidote to shame, when you look at it on a bigger grand scale, is compassion. (37:10) Yes, compassion.(37:12) We've said this before in episodes, but we're going to say it again. (37:16) The number one antidote to shame is compassion. (37:20) Now, if you were to look at Brene Brown's work, she would say it's actually empathy.(37:24) And I'm going to make a very, very distinct, distinguishing element of why that's not actually the case based on the most recent research and how empathy is felt and what specifically regions of the brain get activated when we experience empathy as opposed to compassion. (37:46) So Bianca, it's fascinating because when I talk about compassion with other people, they're like, well, what really is compassion? (37:54) What is it?(37:55) And especially my male clients, they'll be like, I don't actually know what that means. (38:03) And even not knowing what compassion is, what it looks like, what it feels like, what it sounds like, that can be a shame trigger for a lot of people. (38:14) And so if you're feeling that and you're asking yourself and you're hearing your thoughts already go like, what is compassion?(38:20) You're not alone in that. (38:22) Very few people, and I've worked with thousands of people at this point, can actually tell me what compassion is and hit the nail on the head. (38:33) More often than not, we go to, well, it's like being kind to other people.(38:38) It's like, well, that's kindness. (38:41) Actually, it's not compassion. (38:42) What's the difference?(38:42) Okay. (38:43) So what is compassion? (38:44) Compassion at its core is a deep awareness, a cultivation of awareness of ultimately another person's suffering.(38:53) And it's coupled with a strong desire to alleviate said suffering. (39:01) Okay. (39:01) So empathy, on the other hand, empathy is essentially the feeling with someone.(39:13) Okay. (39:14) Sympathy is feeling for. (39:16) Compassion is I see your suffering and I have deep awareness to what that feels like as a human being, right?(39:24) That's empathy. (39:25) And I have the desire, strong desire to help alleviate it. (39:33) And normally compassion has the deep desire to help even you help yourself to alleviate it.(39:42) Okay. (39:43) So Bianca, anything that you want to say in here before we kind of scooch into the practice and breaking down compassion a little bit differently in the neurophysiological and neurobiological components that are helpful for this episode? (39:59) Yeah.

Bianca Thomas

(40:02) So it's not only the desire, but it's the capability.

Bianca Thomas

(40:12) We, I think as human beings, we all want so much to help each other. (40:18) We want to help each other through things. (40:20) We want to help each other eliminate suffering.(40:23) We want to help each other to not have to experience pain. (40:29) Compassion has to have two massive components with it. (40:37) Number one is capabilities.(40:40) Number two is boundaries. (40:43) You cannot appropriately and effectively give compassion to another person without those two things. (40:51) That is why therapy is so effective because there are inherent boundaries, by the, as a byproduct of the relationship through which therapy works.(41:03) So I'm not going home with you. (41:05) I'm not sitting there on the couch with you at the end of the day, after the therapy session, after you're like in the midst of trying to navigate these things, there are specific, required, necessary boundaries that allow me to then effectively use the capabilities and the skills that I have to then help you out of that. (41:35) That is why you cannot use your friends or your family or your partners or your loved ones or chat GPT to help you get out of shame, to help you to heal through these experiences because there are no boundaries in there and they do not have the capabilities.(41:58) I love that you said that.

Bianca Thomas

(41:59) Yes. (42:01) Okay.

Emilia Smith

(42:02) So remember when I had mentioned the sheer difference of how, what brain regions get activated in empathy versus compassion and why empathy actually isn't the number one antidote to shame, the reason being, and I'm, trust me, I'm not saying that empathy doesn't come in at certain points along the compassion continuum. (42:28) Like that's just not true, but, but I love what you said around the boundaries components because it's so true. (42:36) Compassion is, is that love in action and it has boundaries, right?(42:40) So yeah, we'll just leave it there. (42:43) Okay. (42:44) Empathy.(42:45) When we experience empathy, this is why going to your friends or going to your family or going to, to some random stranger immediately, quote unquote, might feel good because they get in the quote unquote boat that you feel like you're drowning when you're in shame with you. (42:59) But here's the thing they're in that boat with you without a flotation device. (43:04) So I love the analogy.(43:06) And I always share this with my clients. (43:07) It's when you're in shame, picture that as like the pond of like the painful, harmful suffering that you're experiencing. (43:15) And when someone is empathetic towards you because they've been there before, it's like, Oh, I feel you, right?(43:20) Like, Oh my goodness, I feel you. (43:22) And then what's happening in that moment. (43:23) What's happening in that moment is, is called pain sharing.(43:26) They're getting in that boat with you and y'all are both sinking and in the brain pain, uh, pain sharing regions get activated. (43:35) So I have it written down in my remarkable here, cause I wanted to make sure that we brought it into the fold here. (43:39) So insula, cingula, cingulate cortex, your insula and cingulate cortex get activated, which are pain regions.(43:50) So you're literally experiencing pain. (43:52) If you have empathy with someone, which when you're in a therapy setting, the last thing that you really want is someone to get in that boat and sink with you, right? (44:02) In those moments, how do we cultivate this interpersonal sink in the boat with your, the parts that are experiencing shame?(44:11) That's why therapy and coaching is so helpful because someone puts out on the outside of that pond is sitting on the side on shore and throwing a rope, a lifeboat out, out to you and saying, Hey, I know that if I get in that boat with you, we're both going to go down and that's not going to be helpful for you. (44:32) That's why empathy and fatigue is so quick to happen when you're just empathetic all the time. (44:40) People who are HSPs, highly sensitive people and highly empathetic individuals experience burnout all the time because there are no boundaries.(44:48) And so it's that distress sharing of another that actually doesn't allow shame to be processed because what happens then there's a component of the brain that's called the right super marginal gyrus, which essentially distinguishes ourselves from other people that gets activated less when you're having empathy being shared, meaning both people are going through pain. (45:11) Now, compassion is so powerful to shame because it does not activate our pain networks in our brain. (45:20) So when we're in shame, instead, someone offers this compassionate expression.(45:25) And there's a couple of different types that maybe we'll break down in another episode just due to time. (45:30) But ultimately when we're experiencing compassion or when we meet ourselves with compassion in those shame based moments, picture yourself on the track and we'll give an example of what to do in those moments. (45:43) But what's happening is that your brain is shifting away from the pain of that shameful experience and more towards reward and caregiving networks in your brain.(45:56) And that matters because how your hormones shift your nervous system, essentially the signals that go through your body that help you get into action instead of just collapsing and internalizing everything through the medial orbital frontal cortex and the ventral striatum. (46:15) This helps to have that positive emotion. (46:18) Those helpful neurotransmitters and endorphins actually buffer against that emotional burnout that happens usually when we just are in shame and we talk to someone and they're empathetic towards us.(46:31) So what happens then when we're in those shame based moments? (46:35) How do we access compassion? (46:37) What are the practices that we can do?(46:39) And how do we ultimately foster love for ourselves in action without activating the regions of the brain that are involved with pain, not reward and caregiving? (46:54) What that comes down to can look like a ton of different things. (46:59) But Bianca, before I dig into that, I want to see what you might have to add prior to getting into that.

Bianca Thomas

(47:13) Most of us do not have the skills to be able to think critically when we are experiencing deep levels of emotion. (47:23) That's why empathy is not effective. (47:26) If I'm feeling with you and now I'm in a lot of pain, I cannot effectively help you get out of it.(47:35) Now, compassion does not mean I am not feeling with you. (47:40) It means that there is a boundary around that feeling. (47:44) I'm not absorbing it.(47:46) I see so deeply what you are feeling. (47:51) And because I see it so deeply and because I have boundaries around it, I can effectively use the skills and capabilities that I have to help you get out.

Emilia Smith

(48:03) Exactly. (48:04) Picture the person on the shore that's sending out that lifeboat, that life raft, right? (48:08) Sympathy is the person that's standing over kind of that pond of water that's like, oh, that really sucks.(48:15) So OK, so what do you do? (48:16) So the first thing due to the fact that a lot of your access to your higher cortical level thinkings are not available is the stop technique. (48:27) So stop is an acronym to stop what you're doing.(48:30) So picture yourself on the track. (48:31) You're already breathing heavy. (48:33) OK, apply the situation in anything.(48:37) If you're experiencing that shame and you're starting to feel that gunk, you need to stop what you're doing. (48:43) Don't avoid. (48:44) Don't distract yourself.(48:45) It's so much easier, but it's not doing you any favors. (48:49) So the S in stop is quite literally stop. (48:53) The P in stop is.(48:56) Oh, I'm sorry, not P. (48:58) Sorry, the T is take a breath. (49:00) So take a freaking breath.(49:02) Push that breath down into your belly. (49:05) This will activate what's called diaphragmatic breathing, which essentially is starting to put your brain back online so that you can start to go into the O, which is observing what's going on in your body. (49:17) Oh, I'm noticing that I feel shame in my chest.(49:22) And the P is proceed with that awareness of what you're observing. (49:26) OK, so stop. (49:29) Is the S T is take a breath, push it down to your belly.(49:33) O is observe what's happening inside of your body. (49:36) That's that body scan and P proceed with those awarenesses. (49:40) I notice the shame feels really heavy in my chest.(49:43) OK, then what do you do from there? (49:47) This is where any of the compassion based techniques or practices can be engaged upon. (49:54) And why I like the stop one to begin all of that is because it's a mindful based approach to pause and manage any reactive emotions, which usually when we're experiencing shame, our emotions are having a heyday.(50:07) And so literally the breath will connect you back into your body. (50:11) And when shame is present, that's really difficult. (50:14) OK, so then you can go into anything like a loving kindness meditation, which is like, may I be loved?(50:20) May I be safe? (50:22) May I be OK? (50:24) Things like that, that like may I be kind to myself, like giving yourself and extending that life raft.(50:30) Something like a just like me practice I find with individuals is helping them to understand. (50:37) Wait a second. (50:37) Other people are just like me.(50:40) I can recognize that other people might struggle to run a 300 millimeter kilometer or meter race with their friends and get gassed out. (50:51) Right. (50:51) When you can extend that perspective, the just like me, that actually allows your brain to start to again shift to that.(50:59) Maybe I can alleviate a little bit of my own suffering instead of interpersonalizing and letting the shame seep deeper. (51:09) A couple of other things that I personally do is compassionate journaling. (51:14) So this is where literally pen to paper is so powerful, where essentially you're you're writing a letter to yourself and it's light just like, hey, how are you doing?(51:24) I know we're feeling really we're on the struggle bus right now and I want you to know that you're unconditionally loved and kind of writing to myself like a wise friend, if you will, because what that does is that soothes and comforts yourself. (51:37) And that's I'm going to stop there because there's so much more for this.

Bianca Thomas

(51:42) And we got to wrap up.

Emilia Smith

(51:43) We got to go. (51:44) So, Bianca, anything to add and closing thoughts on this episode?

Bianca Thomas

(51:51) Just like everything else, this is a practice and we get better at it the more we practice it. (51:57) And shame stops being a force that looms over us when we understand what it is, when we partner with it and when we partner with our own brain, body and emotions to help us downregulate the negative experiences of it. (52:16) And my episode suggestion is actually 499, the real reason people give up on their dreams.(52:22) Part two, where we originally spoke on this.

Emilia Smith

(52:25) Great. (52:25) My episode suggestion is 483, how to hold two truths at the same time. (52:30) My closing remark is if you haven't mapped your shame response system and this is something you're struggling with, please reach out.(52:37) Our links are down below. (52:38) We have we offer that service Saturdays, a free 30 minute call to any of our listeners. (52:44) So click those links down below.(52:46) And as always, Evolvers, thank you for your continued interest in the science of holistic mental health and well-being. (52:53) We are so grateful to be on this journey with you and we encourage you to keep evolving. (53:03) We know firsthand how important it is to have a safe space with people who support and celebrate your evolution.(53:10) That's why we created our free live virtual event called Out of the Mud that we host the last Wednesday of every single month, 7 p.m. Eastern Standard Time, so that while you venture into new territories of your growth, you can get in a room with others who are too. (53:27) Extraordinary topics with evolved people, that's what this event is all about. (53:32) What's great too is that you don't even need to have your camera or mic on, you can just listen in.(53:37) Click the link in the show notes to register for the next topic to kickstart your growth.

Bianca Thomas

(53:42) Be on the lookout for our IG Lives that we host every Friday at 12 30 p.m. Eastern Standard Time. (53:49) This is a place where you can connect with us live and in a fun, light-hearted way. (53:54) We are also in the process of rolling out group coaching and online courses and these are sure to help you evolve into a greater version of yourself.

Emilia Smith

(54:03) If this episode resonated with you or you heard something you know will help you evolve, please share it with someone you love and care about, team members across the world, or someone who you believe deeply could benefit from joining this discussion.

Bianca Thomas

(54:18) This content is intended for information purposes only. (54:21) It is not a substitute for professional counseling or psychotherapy, medical advice, diagnoses, or treatment, and does not constitute medical or other professional advice. (54:32) Names and identifiable personal details mentioned in respective podcast episodes and stories may have been changed to protect personal privacy and identity.