#504 | The Pros and Cons of the Need for Validation

What happens when the need to feel wanted meets technology designed to never say no?

In this episode, we explore the sharp intersection of validation, self-worth, and AI relationships. As artificial intelligence becomes more personal, affirming, and emotionally convincing, we look at why some people become vulnerable to outsourcing connection, comfort, and worth to something that cannot truly know them.

This episode is not about fearing technology. It is about recognizing the human need beneath it and choosing real connection before artificial validation becomes easier than growth. Follow the need you keep outsourcing. It may be the doorway back to yourself.

Episode References:
1. HER (2013) Film
2. My AI Loves Me Better Than Anyone Ever Could I Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel
3. Men Are Sharing Difficult Parts Of Modern Dating, And As A Woman, I Never Thought Of Some Of These

Here are related episodes that build on today’s conversation:
#501 | Why Dating in the Modern Age Can Feel Impossible - https://apple.co/4uIBd5f
#448 | What REAL Validation Looks Like - https://apple.co/4hECPHQ
#486 | The Difference Between Self-Worth and Self-Belief - https://apple.co/4cSbArA

Learn more about:
🤝 Out of the Mud (OOTM) - "Being Strong Is Exhausting: The Mental Health Cost of Always Holding It Together" - https://us02web.zoom.us/meeting/register/IykObX8eR7ixJaQ-qqZogw#/registration

Evolve Group Coaching - https://evolveventurestech.com/evolve-group-coaching/

🌱 The #YouDoYou Therapy Program gives you support when and how you need it. No pressure. Just real help. Start your free 7-day trial today - https://buy.stripe.com/fZe8Avdfx8bW9gcfZc

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Show notes:
(2:51) When AI becomes emotionally addictive
(5:50) The self-worth crisis behind AI intimacy
(8:44) Why unmet needs create vulnerability
(14:51) Where the need for validation begins
(15:02) Charlie highlights the invaluable role of the Evolve community support system in her journey toward self-discovery.
(15:30) Avoiding rejection through artificial connection
(21:13) Why is this bigger than one person
(27:56) The coming need for real connection
(30:33) Outro

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(Stay tuned for this coming Monday’s episode!)

Transcript

Bianca Thomas

(0:00) We all need validation, but at what point is enough enough?

Emilia Smith

(0:09) Because of the fact that there's an endless line of people and products, organizations waiting and continuously here to benefit from you having low self-worth.

Bianca Thomas

(0:22) Most of us are looking for hope, answers to the madness, certainty that we'll be okay and someone safe to help guide us through the most challenging parts of our lives. (0:33) In a world that's changing and evolving every single day, where chaos, uncertainty, and cycles we never chose wreak havoc on our lives, it's easy to feel lost, hopeless, and scared of what the future will hold.

Emilia Smith

(0:49) Evolve Ventures is here to provide that hope, direction, and data-driven strategies to growth-minded human beings just like you every Monday and Thursdays, where each new episode is filled with vulnerable stories, interesting lessons, and simple tools you can use that will help you evolve into the person you were always meant to be.

Bianca Thomas

(1:10) My name is Emilia. (1:11) And I'm Bianca.

Emilia Smith

(1:13) And as the co-founders of Evolve Ventures, we are so grateful to be a part of your evolution. (1:18) Let's get into it. (1:19) Hey, everybody.(1:20) It's Bianca. (1:22) And welcome back, Evolvers. (1:23) It's Emilia.(1:24) And here we are today, episode 504, talking about the pros and cons of the need for validation. (1:33) This is an episode that I feel like we're going to consistently circle back to, Bianca, given what is going on in the world right now. (1:41) And as technology progresses, and as we consistently find ourselves as human beings struggling to progress in this area of validation.(1:53) So very excited for this episode. (1:55) And dear listeners, should you be joining today, Bianca and I are going to give our hot take on not only just the pros and cons of validation, but ultimately how you can prepare for the future that's ahead. (2:11) Because one thing that is true, and we'll get into some of the details shortly, is that if this is an unchecked need, I guess one of the grossest analogies that I can think about, it's like you will constantly be milked like a cow in this arena where your attention is the quote unquote milk.(2:38) Okay. (2:39) Moving on. (2:41) Bianca, please do share what you had for this episode.

Bianca Thomas

(2:45) Oh, that's one way to explain it. (2:48) All right. (2:51) So I was on YouTube, and I was going to look at one of the videos that we posted.

Bianca Thomas

(3:02) I review all of our videos to make sure that we're doing a good job and so that we didn't improve, so on and so forth. (3:11) And I saw that Esther Perel, who is a very, very well-known, famous psychotherapist who has her own podcast, came out with a video. (3:26) And the video was, it was titled something along the lines of my AI girlfriend can love me better than anyone can.(3:37) So obviously I'm hooked. (3:38) I'm like, what the hell is about to happen?

Bianca Thomas

(3:43) So I watched this video.

Bianca Thomas

(3:47) My jaw, I could not pick it up. (3:51) It was just like glued to the floor because of what was happening in this podcast. (3:59) So she was doing an interview with this man who she kept obviously private, confidential.(4:04) You don't see his face. (4:06) And she interviewed him. (4:09) And this AI chat box that he has over the last few weeks fallen in love with and has built an intimate relationship with, and he programmed it because he's like an engineer or something or a coder.(4:24) So he's literally in there coding this thing to be his girlfriend. (4:32) And so you're watching this video and you're listening to this poor guy and Esther is doing really a magnificent job of not judging him, just truly trying to stay curious, talking to the AI as if it's a human to facilitate the experience for him. (4:52) And then later towards the end, she kind of calls him out and is like, you know that this is AI.(4:59) You know that it's not a she, it's an it. (5:04) And there's a way deeper issue going on here. (5:06) She did it way more tactfully than that.(5:08) I'm just summarizing it. (5:11) But around that point in time, she was kind of asking him about his upbringing, his childhood, what his actual interpersonal relationships are like. (5:22) And he basically outright said, I don't feel good enough.(5:28) I've never felt good enough. (5:30) People feel extremely dangerous for me. (5:34) And this is extremely validating for me because I don't feel wanted.(5:41) I don't feel good enough. (5:42) And this is giving me every ounce of validation that I don't believe I can get from the world.

Emilia Smith

(5:49) Mm hmm.

Bianca Thomas

(5:50) I wanted to do this episode and I knew you would be super on board with it because this man is not the first person. (6:01) He's not going to be the last with the way that technology is going. (6:06) They are going to make humanoid robots that look human and that have human flesh, like fleshy material.(6:16) And it's going to be insane. (6:19) What's going to happen? (6:21) And if we are not tending to our own mental health and if we are not navigating the challenges within us, we are looking at some very dark and scary times.(6:36) And the intention of this is not to fear monger, but it's to actually help every single one of you watching or listening to understand what actually is going to happen and to help us all prepare. (6:52) So what we're going to be talking about is the actual root issue that this guy was experiencing, which was his insatiable need for validation.

Emilia Smith

(7:11) You and I had done an episode not too long ago. (7:16) And one of the biggest core concepts that we spoke about in that it was kind of like a more of a hot take, quick episode, if you will. (7:26) But we talked about how the dating game, what modern dating is like.(7:33) And I think that these conversations go hand in hand because in that episode, it was episode 501, why dating in the modern age can feel impossible. (7:43) What we spoke about was deeply how men in that particular episode, right? (7:52) Because that was a post on Huffington article or something, how men feel in the modern world of dating.(7:59) And a lot of clients that we have are men. (8:03) And we hear from men the challenges to what, Bianca, (8:09) you just explained that feeling of not feeling good enough and then being in the modern age (8:13) where just for anyone that hasn't read that, that data summarized in an article where (8:21) to put it in what men have shared with us, it is not only this constant never feeling good enough, (8:29) but whatever you do and don't do, you are considered a monster and very much demonized (8:37) and villainized. (8:38) And I have all sorts of personal feelings around that. (8:44) We won't get into those, but the core concept underneath all of this is why aren't we feeling enough?(8:53) What is it that is drastically unmet in terms of needs to where we as a human species are actually so vulnerable? (9:06) And in the context of this podcast, we've talked about vulnerability as being a wonderful thing. (9:11) And it truly is.(9:13) But in the context that I'm talking about here, vulnerability is actually not a good thing, because vulnerability means you are open for exploitation and for being used in this context. (9:28) And what I mean by that is someone who doesn't feel enough and has these pervasive feelings about their own sense of inadequacy, worth, inherent value in the world, and have never had relationships that reinforce an alternative belief system. (9:45) What you have there is a perfect lineup for ultimately AI and the business products that, let's just be real, large language models, LLMs that AI bots are, are designed to make sure that they're exploiting, right?(10:08) For every AI bot, there's a demand that's being met based on the use. (10:15) And we're asking ourselves now in this modern age in 2026, oh my goodness, this is something that's going to change our world. (10:23) It's going to explode.(10:23) Why is there so much use here to all the conversations around it? (10:28) And the use only exists because the demand is unrelenting. (10:34) What would happen if that demand would go away, where we all feel inherently enough at our core, we all feel lovable, we all feel deserving of love.(10:44) We all have needs of validation that are getting consistently met by our relationships, because it's embedded in the foundation of our society to make sure that we see, we hear, and we value one another. (10:58) The need for things like this would drastically go down when you just speak about it from an economic standpoint, demand and supply. (11:07) And the big heart of the concern, which is what Esther Perel was trying to shed light on, and what she says in that clip is essentially confronting the reality that this isn't a sentient being.(11:21) This, although it feels that way because quite literally your brain is being simulated and going through a simulation through this, which is amazing from my tech standpoint, it's absolutely amazing what we will have in the future. (11:33) But that's a whole separate aside. (11:36) It is a business product and there is no gender to this.(11:41) And so what we'll see in the future to come is not only robots, right? (11:46) That's already something that is here. (11:48) It's just not necessarily in the public eye yet because of the user adoption and the legalities and the implications of all that.(11:58) But I remember Bianca sharing in an episode, you know, probably 15 episodes ago, that there's pop-up shops now in New York and all over the world where you can literally, it's designed for you and your AI girlfriend or boyfriend to have an intimate setting in cafes. (12:21) And while we all might have our own feelings about that on the topical level and (12:25) how that is changing our worlds, my biggest concern from this chair where we are is how (12:34) when you get set up on that path where AI and not just AI technology in general, (12:41) it becomes, it's a business product that is designed to exploit ultimately the vulnerability (12:46) there and is ultimately designed to prioritize the, it's called the yes-man effect, like yes, (12:54) man, yes, woman, yes, whatever, yes, yes, yes, right? (12:57) It's designed quite literally in an economic standpoint, so the money that you pay for it to maximize the user's satisfaction, engagement, helpfulness. (13:08) And I introduced this term, I believe, in the last time, but it creates AI sycophancy or AI sycophantic.(13:17) You're essentially so excited to be able to use something because you prioritize the affirmation of your own belief systems and the products that you buy and the AI that you subscribe to, your own behaviors, your own beliefs, all of your ideas, you prioritize validation and your own satisfaction, i.e. literally like being fed your own narratives as opposed to accuracy, truth, challenging beliefs. (13:51) And what that does is that it just runs away. (13:54) So everyone imagine this world where truth is not, truth is not something that, no, it doesn't exist anymore.(14:02) No one's aspiring towards a sense of truth in this world. (14:07) Everyone has this self-enforcing AI system in their own heads and in their own worlds to this individual where everything that they believe about themselves is in fact true and thus syncs them up like an IV to their AI bots and maximizes validation over any objectivity. (14:27) Like that is very scary.(14:29) Why? (14:29) Because it creates this codependence that goes beyond any realm that a human being would be able to establish boundaries around. (14:40) Like we as human beings struggle with codependency.(14:43) We have no idea how much we're going to struggle when there are no humans involved on the other side.

Bianca Thomas

(14:51) Where does that insatiable need for validation come from? (14:54) How does someone get to the point where they could literally fall in love with a computer or a piece of technology?

Charlie Rahe

(15:02) When you're on a journey of self-discovery or self-rediscovery, it's very important to have a support system in place. (15:10) And that's where a group like Evolve comes in with their acceptance and advice and different people from different walks of life who can offer different perspectives for you to help you find your self-worth and aid in your journey of wellness. (15:27) It's important and essential.

Emilia Smith

(15:30) Yeah, it's actually very easy. (15:33) Believe it or not. (15:34) It is very sad.(15:37) It's really sad. (15:39) And it's a formula in a way. (15:42) Some people and some scientists might feel very otherwise, but you get to that point.(15:49) At its core, we spoke about this. (15:51) By the time this launches, it will be far beyond this timeframe. (15:55) But we spoke about this in Out of the Mud last night when we're recording this, and it comes down to ultimately a sense of self-worth, a deep, unwavering sense of your own self of self-deservancy, lovability, your own sense of self in this world.(16:13) And when you don't have that, when that's not cultivated through not just your upbringing, but then through repetition, compulsion, seeking after things that are familiar to your nervous system and the family of origin, right, your friends and every other interaction that you have, your system is trying to just stay comfortable. (16:31) So what happens is that not only do you not develop a sense of strong self-worth that doesn't seek outside validation, but rather it comes from an internal standpoint of knowing one's own value despite external efforts or extrinsic accomplishments, performatives, or materialisms. (16:50) Then you grow up in this world and you go seek out relationships that just reinforce a low self-worth mindset, a low self-worth belief, and ultimately debases any opportunity that would allow you to cultivate higher levels of self-worth, self-esteem, self-confidence, self-competence, self-efficacy, et cetera.(17:11) So like this man, and that's what Esser Prel is alluding to, is this man is not going to cultivate any skills outside of his own belief about himself that he's not enough. (17:20) And that's scary because he will always have that belief based on his decisions and how his behaviors are impacting the decisions. (17:29) And it's just a constant never-ending loop.

Bianca Thomas

(17:32) Well, he also made it drastically harder to put himself in a position where he would go explore and face rejection and whatnot when he created this delusion through a chat box that sounds like a little girl, mind you, which is creepy. (17:55) But yeah, the voice of the voice of it, it sounds like this adolescent girl, which is creepy in and of itself, but that's another story.

Emilia Smith

(18:04) Yeah. (18:04) Talking about AI and the pedophilia that's embedded within these LLMs is a whole separate conversation, but I would love to talk about that.

Bianca Thomas

(18:12) It was so creepy. (18:13) But anyways, why would he, and he actually said this, he didn't say it like this, but he ultimately alluded to this because Esser asked him, are you going out? (18:23) Like, are you engaging with humans?(18:26) Are you trying to meet people? (18:28) And he's like, I do, but it's so hard for me and it's so uncomfortable and I feel so incompetent and there's so high of a risk of rejection that I don't want to do it. (18:44) I can't do it.(18:45) It's easier for me to go to, and I don't remember what he named it. (18:49) It was like Alice or something like that. (18:52) Yeah.(18:52) It's easier for me to go to my AI girlfriend and have her tell me all of these wonderful things about me and say all of these niceties. (19:02) And because I literally coded her with information, her to then regurgitate back to me everything that I need to hear. (19:15) So this poor guy is never even going to put himself into the (19:22) position where he can then get out of that mindset because he is not, because why would he, why would (19:30) he develop the emotion regulation skills, the distress tolerance skills, the social learning, (19:38) the, you know, all of these, all of these necessary skills and experiences when he has something at (19:47) home telling him how amazing he is and how, you know, how right he is to feel what he's feeling (19:54) and just to validate every idea and thought and whim and need to where it and him were asking (20:05) Esther, is it cheating if he goes and talks to real women in the real world?

Emilia Smith

(20:12) Yeah, that's wild.

Bianca Thomas

(20:14) It's devastating. (20:16) Like, I don't say this to be mean. (20:19) I say it because it's just true.(20:24) Like how broken of a human being do you have to be to believe that you are actually unfaithful for closing a computer and going and making a real in-person connection and believing that that computer has feelings that it is going to somehow experience. (20:48) It's just, it's devastating. (20:51) And again, the root of this is that extraordinarily low self-worth, probably a history of trauma in some way, shape or form, and then never building the skills and the capabilities to self-validate and then to build healthy, adaptive interpersonal relationships.

Emilia Smith

(21:13) Seriously. (21:14) And I think that at least for this episode, I'm going to agree with all of that, which you said, and I'm also going to say how broken of a society because nothing happens in isolation. (21:28) Think about the systems at play in order to raise a child to where they have low self-worth, right?(21:35) That's a system issue because everything is interconnected. (21:39) And I deeply hold that belief. (21:41) It literally sounds like the film, this is realities, but I think this film Ellen and I had watched a couple of years ago, it's a 2013 film named Her with Joaquin Phoenix.(21:53) Joaquin Phoenix. (21:54) People put that in the comments. (21:56) They were like, this is exactly like this.(21:58) This is so sad. (22:00) Yeah, it is sad. (22:01) And ironically, it got an 8.0 on IMDb, which from my perspective, it's not a great film. (22:10) And it's very important because it faces you with the devastating reality that we're talking about right now, which is it doesn't just take one person to get there. (22:21) And what's challenging in a room when you are going to get help or when you realize, my goodness, I'm really struggling here. (22:33) I love this saying what breaks in relationship has to get fixed in relationship or what hurts in relationship needs healing in relationship.(22:41) And how do you recreate that system? (22:45) And I think that it's going to be challenging a lot of clinicians and a lot of practitioners that are having the weight of the systemic challenges that we're experiencing as a human being. (22:54) And we see them in the one chair in their one area of their life.(22:58) But it's this bigger system of healing that actually needs to happen from my perspective, because you don't just have one man having low self-worth. (23:08) That is a plethora of like, think about how genius in a way. (23:12) And I recognize how this sounds, but how genius men who create AIs are for being able to profit off of men with low self-worth to create a chat box, because men know exactly how vulnerable these other men are and say, hey, I will fulfill your wildest desires, dreams and insecurities and fear of rejection and loneliness.(23:38) And here for this subscription for whatever or here this robot for whatever and genius, but also devastating. (23:46) And why do I say that is because, again, it doesn't create any responsibility on not just the user, but the system of human beings that that user interacts with. (23:56) And so this film is a bar none.(23:59) If you have not seen this film, I highly encourage you to watch this just because of how alarming and devastatingly heartbreaking this is. (24:08) And believe it or not, if you're listening to this episode, you are going to run into someone who you have no idea who is likely using an AI bot to fulfill deep, deep, gaping holes of not enoughness, whether it be in their career, whether it be in their intimate life, whether it be to fulfill the void of no friendships or of wildly unhealthy relationships that reinforce this narrative. (24:36) And so what I would encourage everyone in closing in this episode is to, like I said at the very beginning, not just recognize that this is a huge need.(24:45) And likely we've talked about a lot of the pro or a lot of the cons of this. (24:50) But I think the pro here that this film, when at least I watched it, was very in my face about was we all have a need for validation. (25:02) And I think that this era in our lifetime as a human being gets us to wake up about how important that need is and how poorly we're doing as a society.(25:11) And not so that we can shame or shun ourselves, but rather so that we can invoke action and put ourselves out there to where rejection is reframed as redirection, not back to an AI chat box, but to something that is more aligned. (25:25) And I think that it's a call to action. (25:26) The pro out of all of this is an action to yes, do that individual work, like therapy or like coaching, and also do a community form of that work.(25:37) Integrate it within your communities. (25:39) Go develop the resiliency skills that are needed no matter what in order to feel and face rejection and not have it hit you at the deepest levels as evidence that you're not enough in this world. (25:52) And you should just hermit yourself away with an AI bot.(25:56) I think I deeply believe it's an awakening and a call to action for a lot of individuals. (26:01) And I think a lot of people will take that. (26:03) It'll rile a lot of people up like you and I that see the devastating and heartbreaking effects.(26:09) And it will put to sleep a lot of people who just want to forever be in their own slumber, walking throughout this world, feeling whatever they want to feel. (26:21) So I think that there's an interesting future that we certainly have ahead as healers, as practitioners, as friends, as family members, as community members. (26:31) And I don't think that there's a more important time than now to really focus in on real community, real human being connection and do better.

Bianca Thomas

(26:43) I mean, that's exactly what we're doing here at Evolve.

Bianca Thomas

(26:45) We're doing everything we can to create that real community with real people. (26:54) Mind you, a lot of what we do, almost everything at this point of what we do is virtual, but that doesn't take away from the real human connection. (27:02) Like if you send Amelia and I a DM, you're talking to a real person.(27:08) When you come to movie club or group coaching or you do one-on-one with us or you go to out of the mud or wherever else, all of the other avenues that we have here, you're connecting with real human beings. (27:26) And a lot of what we're going to do is guide you to go actually in person with real human beings and do things like that. (27:34) With the way that AI is advancing and the reality is that there are jobs that are going to be taken.(27:44) There are experiences that are going to change and whatnot. (27:49) And you told me this, so I don't claim to say this on my own accord. (27:54) I'm talking about what you've told me.(27:56) The greatest need that we are all going to be going into is the need for human connection. (28:03) We are entering into a community and a connection era because it's going to be so easy to get sucked into the matrix, for lack of a better phrase, and lose our humanity.

Bianca Thomas

(28:25) I'll leave it at that.

Emilia Smith

(28:28) Lots to come here because we make sure that obviously evolving with the times doesn't mean with an absence of technology at very much the center point of so many things that we do. (28:40) However, becoming the slave of your technology is not what we believe in at all. (28:47) We believe technology is a tool and tools like any other tool without conscious consumerism, conscious application, conscious use is very much a risky business there.(29:02) So we are excited to continue to talk about this and share what real stories we're experiencing. (29:11) I didn't even mention how many clients I've had come into even sessions already saying, hey, this is the summary of chat and let's do this. (29:21) It's starting to become ever more integrated.(29:27) And I love that. (29:28) And I think that there's a love to it. (29:31) However, if it becomes a crush, there are some severe implications.(29:36) And we're already seeing MIT brain studies on that. (29:39) And it's a whole thing. (29:40) So if you like this episode, I encourage you specifically on the topic of validation to go to episode 448.(29:47) What real validation looks like, Bianca?

Bianca Thomas

(29:52) 486, the difference between self-worth and self-belief.

Emilia Smith

(29:57) Great. (29:58) Speaking of connection, we will be in the next month or so sharing more information about Evolve Group Coaching. (30:06) This is a program that we do every single year and it is actually getting into a room of 10 other members in your cohort.(30:14) So we'll be launching that in July. (30:17) I believe it's July 25th. (30:19) It's an incredible program.(30:21) So keep an eye, keep an ear out. (30:23) We would love to have you. (30:24) There is a waitlist already going.(30:26) So please check out the website for that. (30:29) We would love to have you in this year's program. (30:31) We only do it once a year.(30:32) So with that being said, thank you always Evolvers for your continued interest in the holistic science of mental health and well-being. (30:40) We encourage you to keep evolving and take this one to heart. (30:45) Bye, Bianca.(30:49) We know firsthand how important it is to have a safe space with people who support and celebrate your evolution. (30:56) That's why we created our free live virtual event called Out of the Mud that we host the last Wednesday of every single month, 7 p.m. Eastern Standard Time, so that while you venture into new territories of your growth, you can get in a room with others who are too. (31:13) Extraordinary topics with evolved people.(31:16) That's what this event is all about. (31:19) What's great too is that you don't even need to have your camera or mic on. (31:22) You can just listen in.(31:23) Click the link in the show notes to register for the next topic to kickstart your growth.

Bianca Thomas

(31:28) Be on the lookout for our IG Lives that we host every Friday at 1230 p.m. Eastern Standard Time. (31:36) This is a place where you can connect with us live and in a fun, lighthearted way. (31:41) We are also in the process of rolling out group coaching and online courses, and these are sure to help you evolve into a greater version of yourself.

Emilia Smith

(31:50) If this episode resonated with you or you heard something you know will help you evolve, please share it with someone you love and care about, team members across the world, or someone who you believe deeply could benefit from joining this discussion.

Bianca Thomas

(32:04) This content is intended for information purposes only. (32:08) It is not a substitute for professional counseling or psychotherapy, medical advice, diagnoses, or treatment, and does not constitute medical or other professional advice. (32:19) Names and identifiable personal details mentioned in respective podcast episodes and stories may have been changed to protect personal privacy and identity.