This episode was recorded LIVE from the 3rd Annual Punchmark Client Workshop in Charlotte, NC!
Mike was join by Alex Schlindwein (also known as Diamond Diaries) of Kiefer Jewelers, and Caleb Falls from Fall's Jewelers, two Next Generation Jewelers for a retailer roundtable! They talk through their views on jewelry trends, how they balance working with their parents, and the tradeoffs of stocking branded vs un-branded jewelry.
Visit the guest's websites!
https://www.kvjewels.com/
https://www.fallsjewelers.com/
Learn more about our sponsor Podium: https://www.podium.com/loupe/
Send feedback or learn more about the podcast: punchmark.com/loupe
Learn about Punchmark's website platform: punchmark.com
Inquire about sponsoring In the Loupe and showcase your business on our next episode: podcast@punchmark.com
This episode was recorded LIVE from the 3rd Annual Punchmark Client Workshop in Charlotte, NC!
Mike was join by Alex Schlindwein (also known as Diamond Diaries) of Kiefer Jewelers, and Caleb Falls from Fall's Jewelers, two Next Generation Jewelers for a retailer roundtable! They talk through their views on jewelry trends, how they balance working with their parents, and the tradeoffs of stocking branded vs un-branded jewelry.
Visit the guest's websites!
https://www.kvjewels.com/
https://www.fallsjewelers.com/
Learn more about our sponsor Podium: https://www.podium.com/loupe/
Send feedback or learn more about the podcast: punchmark.com/loupe
Learn about Punchmark's website platform: punchmark.com
Inquire about sponsoring In the Loupe and showcase your business on our next episode: podcast@punchmark.com
Welcome back everybody to In the Loop workshop in Charlotte, north Carolina. You'll probably notice that the audio is a little bit different, so bear with us, but it was so cool getting the chance to record live in front of some people of Punch Bar clients, and kind of feel the energy of the crowd. It was a real special treat. This episode is a retailer roundtable with guests Caleb Falls from Falls Jewelers in Kannapolis, just north of Charlotte, north Carolina, as well as Alex, also known as Diamond Diaries, from Kiefer Jewelers in Florida, and we're talking all about some kind of heavy hitting questions. So what's it like working with your parents because they're both next gen jewelers as well as how they balance working with branded versus unbranded jewelry, as well as some of the intangibles that goes into deciding whether they're going to sign on with a new vendor. It was a fantastic time.
Speaker 1:I really would love to do more live shows and every single time I get a chance to do one it's a super treat. So thank you to my guests and please enjoy the show. Oh, and one more thing I want to say a very special thank you to everybody who came up to me at the client workshop and mentioned that they listened to the show, whether it's once or regularly, or that they shared it with their own coworkers, and very special thank you if you brought that up to me in front of my coworkers. It really made me feel like a rock star for a day. So thank you so much. It really means the world to me. Enjoy the show.
Speaker 2:This episode is brought to you by Punchmark, the jewelry industry's favorite website platform and digital growth agency. Our mission reaches way beyond technology. With decades of experience and long lasting industry relationships, punchmark enables jewelry businesses to flourish in any marketplace. We consider our clients our friends, as many of them have been friends way before becoming clients. Punchmark's own success comes from the fact that we have a much deeper need and obligation to help our friends succeed. Whether you're looking for better e-commerce performance, business growth or campaigns that drive traffic and sales, punchmark's website and marketing services were made just for you. It's never too late to transform your business and stitch together your digital and physical worlds in a way that achieves tremendous growth and results. Schedule a guided demo today at punchmarkcom. Slash go.
Speaker 1:And now back to the show. So again, my name is Michael Burko, I'm the Director of User Experience at Punchmark and I also host the weekly In the Loop podcast. And that actually started out in case you guys were customers of ours during, uh, during the pandemic we actually started out as what's called the jeweler survival kit, and the jeweler survival kit actually started out as kind of our way to uh fill the silence that seemed to be happening in the jewelry industry. Uh, the jewelry industry was, I'm sure you guys know um, everyone was very um on edge with the sudden lack of in-store visits. Everybody was uncertain about this shift to totally online, even though we had been kind of shouting it for a couple of years leading up to it. But finally we had a captive audience and it was up to us to start to give best tips and practices on how to do that e-commerce shift. We ran seven episodes of the Jewelers Survival Kit it was weekly still then and then we realized that the pandemic was going to be around a little bit longer than we had thought. It was a bit of a drag to do a pandemic-related podcast every single week, and we ended up shifting to In the Loop, and now.
Speaker 1:It offers me the opportunity to interview really exciting retailers and vendors and technology people and personalities from around the industry. Recently, I actually interviewed Stephen Barnes, the new IGO president, for his first exclusive interview, which is really cool, and it gives an opportunity to kind of lend a platform to some of these voices that make the industry so special. We're going to do a little retailer roundtable and it's one of our recurring series. We have episodes that come out every Tuesday. So, if you want to, I think that this episode is going to air in about two weeks and we will have this whole recording. Hopefully, you guys get an idea of what it's like, but we have a little bit of branding that goes along with it too, and it's just a really awesome way for us to also share what's going on with Punchmark and for me to share some e-commerce experience as well.
Speaker 1:So I'm joined by Caleb and Alex and we're going to be talking about a couple of I don't want to call them polarizing topics, but topics that people seem to have some strong opinions on when it comes to the jewelry industry. So things like e-commerce, things like lab grown versus natural diamonds Not that it's I don't want people to have to take a stance too strong on either side, but it's more that I want to have an idea from retailers, because I'm not a retailer. I work for Punchmark and we do websites, but you guys are having the on the ground experience and understanding it better than I do, so I want to check in with you guys as well. So, alex and Caleb, I kind of want to start with jewelry e-commerce, because we just spent, you know, the last day and a half talking about how you guys can optimize your website as best as possible, hopefully to sell a little bit online. I guess I want to start, alex, do you sell online?
Speaker 3:I do sell online.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and how is that going so far for?
Speaker 3:you it's going well. I mean, I definitely feel like it's never going to replace or even try to compete with our brick and mortar business. But you know there's lots of fringe benefits from having your inventory online. I mean, almost multiple times a day now probably, people just come in with their phone. I want to see this item, you know, and like the sales already half made for you. We get a lot of the where people buy online and then do the in-store pickup makes our lives super easy, especially during the holidays. But I do ship stuff to all 50 states. I've shipped to Puerto Rico. Wow. Yeah, it's pretty amazing actually to where it's gotten at this point. It is a lot of work, though I will not downplay that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but you guys have a good system. It sounds like actually optimize it and kind of has like a system that to get the orders out. Nice and Caleb what?
Speaker 5:about yourself. Yeah, we do online sales as well for e-commerce. We're not quite to the level that Alex and Kiefer are at with that, but I feel like for us it's a lot more of just supplementation, a lot of client retention, things like that. I feel like for us what we've seen a lot of is still local clients who have already visited our store and then they are kind of familiar with our brands and so they kind of have that knowledge a little bit of like, kind of what brands they like and what products they like, so they can go online. We do get a lot of in-store pickups as well, which is nice. You don't have to worry about the shipping stuff.
Speaker 5:But yeah, I mean, and obviously we're trying to kind of expand that more. You know, there's a lot with already having to build your brand and build the trust online in itself and then trying to get that person or those clients to come in the store to build that relationship. So that's tough in itself. But then you have to go even a step further to try to do that to, you know, people who are not clients of yours already and try to get their trust and to, you know, get them to trust you to buy online and things like that. So definitely a work in progress for us too. I feel like it's always going to be something that's a work in progress for everyone. It's never done Exactly.
Speaker 1:But one thing I want to ask though so whenever I bring up selling online, I feel like I ask that question every time I go to a jewelry store, like hey, do you sell online If they're not a Punch Bar client? And a lot of times like no, we just do it as like a lookbook, because we want to make the sale in store, because it's more of like a person to person kind of interaction. We want to build that trust, build that relationship. What do you guys think about that? Do you think you're passing up on that in the long-term benefits of building these clients in the short term of making a couple of sales online, or do you have a way of doing that online?
Speaker 3:I don't think it's really affecting that. I mean, I think it'll never replace it, right? I don't see jewelry stores like us ever going away. I think people want to touch and feel jewelry. I think they want relationships. There's always going to be that and I think that's always going to be the biggest priority. But there is the time and the place where someone needs a gift quickly and they maybe already know what they want, or they got sent a wish list or dropped a hint through their website and they know exactly what they want, and they don't have time to come in necessarily, and we want to make it easy for them, you know. So I think there's there's both room for both yeah, I agree with that for sure.
Speaker 5:I mean, I feel like for all of us as independent jewelers I think everyone is would agree that the best thing is to get somebody in your store, because that's what separates ourselves from big box stores or anything like that so you can sell yourself and sell. You know, for us as a family business, that's what makes us who we are, so we want them in the store. But again, with Alex, what she was just saying, you know there's definitely a time and place to sell online. I mean, that's, it's kind of easy, quick. You know you don't have the overhead of, you know your rent and paying employees and all that stuff. When somebody purchases something online, so it's definitely an added bonus. So I do think there's a time and place for it.
Speaker 1:And, yes, again, something that we just want to keep expanding on, yeah, yeah, it's so tough because I think that in the end, jewelry luxury, but also very tactile, very you know, you guys know this very elegant, and I think that people do like that idea of picking it up. I think that there are ways that you can kind of expand upon that, like with Pick A Media's try-on features. I think that that more experiential design is going to start kind of coming to the forefront. Just recently I was shopping for earrings and I was trying my best to find a experience that would let me, like, try them on my own ears, and I was going through that and it was really cool how, um, that experience is actually like progressing so much farther and farther, but I do think that there's still so much more for it to go. So I guess, maybe shifting a little bit.
Speaker 1:Alex is a Rolex dealer and I can't correct me if I'm wrong. Not a Rolex dealer, correct. So I want to talk about smartwatches. So I'm wearing a smartwatch, two people up here wearing Rolexes. What are your opinions on the advent of what I might call utility watches? So this tracks my heart rate and I wear it when I go for a run and I wear it when I, you know, sleep because it tracks my sleep, all these things. I think it's very fun, but do you feel like utility watches are going to eat into the long-term shelf life and like the business proposition of luxury watches, or are they just completely two different markets?
Speaker 3:I think it's two. Well, actually I think it's the same customer, believe it or not. Like I have customers that come in wearing an Apple watch to buy a Rolex, and sometimes they wear the Apple watch or the Fitbit or whatever on the one hand and the Rolex on the other, and or they just the Rolex is for special occasions. So I think it's the same customer and actually I've seen a big shift in millennials and even like Gen Z coming in and seeing the value in wanting luxury watches. I think that it probably is eating into maybe some of the lower end fashion watches I'm not sure, but definitely not in the luxury. I would say Interesting. Yeah, For us, I mean, I would say yeah.
Speaker 5:For us. I mean, we don't carry Rolex, we carry Citizen and Bel Air, you know things like that. That's our main two. And Citizen actually have a smart watch now. Oh, okay, they're trying to keep up, I think, with all the Apple watches and smart watches and stuff like that. But yeah, I mean I do, I think it's it's kind of both.
Speaker 5:You know, I think there's definitely older generations that still want to wear the wristwatches and things like that. Like, it's obviously a little bit easier of a sell for those people who, you know, maybe don't even know what a smart watch is or whatever. But but yeah, and then you know, with, of course, with cell phones even too, you know a lot of people just don't even wear watches. We see that a lot of people coming in and they just they don't even wear watches or whatever. So yeah, I mean there's a little bit of both for sure, but I do think it's still, you know, separate sort of categories and shoppers that you have to kind of experiment with and deal with. So what do you think about dressed?
Speaker 1:up bands Like do you think that that's going to be? Do you guys sell, uh, just like smart watch bands? Because I wear this one, just because I can go for a run with it, and it's like I know that the sweat's not gonna bother it. But I was looking on I think it was like it was either jha or you know one of the one of the facebook groups and someone was searching for like a solid gold, um smart watch band.
Speaker 3:I was like geez, I'm cramming you know, but hey, who knows that would probably be a really nice sale yeah, so we carry john hardy they make a smartwatch strap and we sell them. I wouldn't say it's anything crazy. And we carry michelle they, they sell straps, we sell them. So, um, there's definitely a market for that. I don't know how big it is, but it's there. And I think the difference is like you don't buy a smartwatch for the same reason that you buy a Rolex. You know like a Rolex can be handed down. They don't even really keep good time, you know. So it's not for the time keeping, but it's for lots of other reasons. It's for the status symbol, you know. So there's there's different things that people are getting out of both.
Speaker 1:Very cool. So I mean on the topic again, everybody who's ever listened to In the Loop knows I'm a huge Rolex fanboy, and one thing I'm interested, though, about is branded versus unbranded goods, and I was just speaking with Lenny from the Edge and we were talking about, you know, the positives and negatives of each. So branded goods I mean. Obviously, a lot of times Landon kept on using the term halo effect. Love that term. I'm going to steal that, but you know it should.
Speaker 1:Maybe people are seeing, like the one in particular I'm thinking of is Rolex, but maybe we'll talk about Hearts on Fire.
Speaker 1:People might see it. It might be a $13,000 pair of earrings, and instead of $13,000, and maybe that's a little bit out of their reach they go for the $10,000 pair of earrings or something around there, and it allows them to kind of elevate their sales, not through the process of selling that particular piece of jewelry, but they might be more enticed because of that comparison shopping, though I have heard that sometimes people can really it's almost like being house poor, like you know buy a house and then suddenly all of your capital is locked up in this one object. The other option is unbranded. You know you get to say, hey, we have this signature, michael's signature line of jewelry. That's pretty cool, but also you're not really pulling in anybody because of Michael's signature line. The other option, though that's benefit is that you can mark it down and scrap it really quickly. What are your opinions, caleb? To start with, you know branded versus unbranded goods? Because I think that unbranded I mean, we have the very prestigious Ospy here in the house as well- Very prestigious.
Speaker 1:They allow you to white label as well, and it allows you to kind of put your own spin on it. What's your opinion on that?
Speaker 5:Yeah, for sure Again, with us not having Rolex. We don't have a ton of like branded hearts on fire. We don't carry any of that, so we're able to kind of mark it up or do whatever we want to with it. We actually also just started our own like signature line of bridal that we're pretty excited about. So I do think a lot of that depends on market. You know jewelry stores up north or just in higher, bigger cities, whatever you know the brand name would probably carry a lot more weight than it does here, and you know suburbia of Charlotte and Annapolis, north Carolina. You know suburbia of Charlotte and Annapolis, north Carolina. But anyway. So I feel like for that reason too, just with our clientele and our who we have as customers and guests come in, I think we're able to do a little bit more of like the non-branded. Now for you guys in Florida, and obviously, being a Rolex store, I feel like it's definitely a big difference between you guys and us.
Speaker 3:So yeah, it depends on who you want to be and like who, what customers you're trying to attract. We're we're definitely mixed and I like being mixed. I I know there's some stores that are like way more branded than we are, um, and so I like, I like having the draw of the brands, but the brands can dictate your life and make things difficult too. So, uh, finding the right brands and making sure that it's paying off for you, I think, is important. So it's not just any brand, but then, of course, we have stuff that's non-branded and I like having both options for my clients. But definitely I have some customers that if it doesn't have a name behind it, they're not buying it, you know. So it's a very interesting dynamic and it just depends on what you're going for.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I sometimes see with vendors they almost advertise their buyback program where, oh, if you don't move this in a certain amount of time, we will take it back and replace it or we'll give you credit. I almost man very like similarly of me, I'm just like man that seems like weird advertising because they're like almost banking on you, not selling out of it. Is that does that weigh into you know, your willingness to jump into a brand if they are willing to take it back and kind of reimburse you or keep you fluid?
Speaker 5:Yeah, I would say so for sure for us. I mean it's and I see what you're saying, michael. I mean it kind of sometimes can be, I guess sort of misleading if you will, but it kind of sometimes can be, I guess, sort of misleading, if you will. But just to have that security, I guess, if you will. I mean as much as you're at a trade show and you think something's going to sell, of course you bring it in the store and it doesn't sell at all, and just for you to be able to send that back or the sort of stock balancing and things like that. It's just a big part as far as who we do business with and Ospy's great at that for sure. No, but um, but yeah, that is for us particularly. It's definitely something that we look at whenever we.
Speaker 3:We deal with vendors. So, yeah, I think it's like you really have to treat it like a partnership. You know, like we're both in this together. So honestly at this point, like if a vendor isn't going to give have nice images that we can use on our website, help us out when we it's not that we, either of us, think we're not going to sell the product, but it just happens sometimes and we want to know that we're not just going to be like up the creek without a paddle. If that happens, you know, and then you know it's great if they can support us for any other like marketing initiatives that we want to do too. So I think the vendors that treat it like a true partnership and what they can add and then what we can add, that's when it works and that's when we have like the long time partnerships that work.
Speaker 1:Because you were talking about vendors and some of the things, the little things that they can do, because a lot of times we're looking at vendors and we're like, oh, it's all about the you know how beautiful their jewelry is and the quality of their jewelry, or, um, some of these guarantees that they can offer, uh, but you also mentioned the quality of their imagery and, uh, I think that you know we keep bringing up Aussie events. I heard someone mention, um, that their images are really high quality and that that sets them apart. But also there are these guarantees. What are the other parts that you guys find are like things that vendors can do that can really set them apart? That actually makes that partnership more valuable to a store for you to bring them on A website for me is huge.
Speaker 5:I mean, I know we just talked about it, but there's plenty of vendors out there that need to call a punch mark because they don't have any sort of online presence at all. And that's a huge pet peeve of mine. I mean there's plenty out there that I can think of that have great jewelry, great products. It's beautiful in the store, but when I want to put it online on our beautifully punchmark website, they don't have it.
Speaker 5:And then they don't have images or nice stock photos. For me and again, the light box is great for that but also I feel like if you're selling nice high-end jewelry, you probably should have some nice high quality images. Yeah, um, so honestly, the first thing or one of the first things I do, if we take on a new vendor or a new line or a big invoice, like I'll immediately email the sales person and say, hey, send me some images. And then if they say they don't have images, I'm like what?
Speaker 3:are we doing here?
Speaker 5:Anyway. So that's to me, that's the main thing for me too, that I want to know that who I'm dealing with has a good website as well, and not only the imagery too, but just the B2B. I mean being able to talk and log in and track your orders and invoices and tracking numbers, just everything. That's another big part, for sure.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I love that Like that. Some vendors don't have their own websites. That we can, you know, go in place orders, see what's in stock, see costs, like up-to-date costs, all that. That like blows my mind that some vendors still don't get that side of it, you know.
Speaker 1:But we keep shouting out Osprey, but I love that.
Speaker 3:I know right, they send a text every day. I get a text on my phone with a post for social media, with the style numbers of what's in the picture, a caption, and if I want to use it, I'm just copying and pasting and like yes, it is beautiful, so that's amazing. They make reels that you can repurpose, they're making video content and it's like good high quality stuff too, so that more vendors don't understand that we need help with all of those resources. Is is really a shock, but there's some that really get it and make life easy, and that's that's great.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I was going to say like marketing images. I feel like some brands I they're dumping their dollars into providing awesome imagery for you to use, whether that's, um, you know, product on on models, or just you know, standalone products on white, and I find that that's definitely a major cost for a lot of vendors, but it does go a pretty long way. When you guys mentioned, though, website presence, is it that you're looking for, like the catalog, and you want to see their full catalog so that you can make decisions in order from them, or is there more to it than that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's that. It's seeing up-to-date cost pricing. I mean even getting to see if they have, you know, pictures of it on people that we could just grab and use for social media, or if we need to make a print ad real quick, or something like that. Just having that all easily accessible, I think, is really what pays off.
Speaker 5:Yeah for sure it's. All the above, I mean availability too, is another thing too. That's a big one. I mean when you, too, is another thing too. Oh, I didn't think of that, that's a big one. I mean when you have a special order that comes in and you, of course, the first thing the client's going to ask is how long is it going to take? And then if you look on the website and you say, well, I don't know either, and you know what I mean.
Speaker 5:There's a lot of hiccups like that, where you have to call and then it's. Saturday, and then you have to wait till Monday or Tuesday to call, and you know there's a lot of different things, but that's, availability for us too is a big one, that's a good one.
Speaker 1:All right, everybody, we're going to take a quick break and hear a word from our sponsor. This episode is brought to you in part by Podium. Managing all of your customer communication can be overwhelming right Bye with Podium. Podium consolidates all of your communication channels, including phone calls, texts, emails, online reviews and more into one easy to use inbox, so you can focus on what matters driving revenue and providing the best experience for your customers. Join the thousands of retail jewelers already experiencing the Podium advantage and take your customer interactions to the next level, plus Podium's offering 25% off for In the Loop listeners. Visit podiumcom. Thank you, and we're back.
Speaker 1:So you had mentioned uh using reels. I mean alex, also known as diamond diaries. Uh is very big proponent of people using instagram and also just social media in general. We're seeing kind of a weird shift in dynamic in the social media landscape right now. I'm sure you guys have been following the news right now. Uh, the t needs to be spun in the next I believe it's in one year or maybe it's like 16 months and if they don't, then it's going to be prohibited from being used in the US.
Speaker 1:So that kind of throws a wrench into things and, honestly, if it was me, I would read that news and I would be like I'm just going to go super heavy into Instagram and just be using Reels is still pretty much king in the US and it's kind of pushing the needle forward, though I'm hearing a lot of people saying that it's power in driving traffic to whether that's websites and also like that act. The aspect of shopping on Instagram is not what it used to be. I just from a personal note, in posting my own work, I have found that the the power of like, first of of all gaining followers, is very, very, very hard right now If you aren't using reels, and but reels are able to attract a new audience. I kind of want maybe, alex, you can kind of shed some light on what should jewelers actually be doing with their social media presence, because it's not just about posting anymore, it's about, you know, I guess, having a strategy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, for sure. I mean, obviously, being consistent on whatever you can be consistent on is the most important thing. So if you can't do all the platforms, pick one and just focus on that, be consistent on it. I repurpose content. So I still post on TikTok, even though you know we'll see what happens. But I just use the same video that I post as a reel is posted as a TikTok, so I'm not spending a whole lot of extra time. Then I can even just grab a still image from it, make that a static post. I can use that static post as an e-blast. So I'm just using the same thing and use you know, know, repurposing out all the different platforms.
Speaker 3:But the main thing with all this is like you should never put all your eggs in one basket with any form of marketing. It's all fleeting and trends are going to change, new apps are going to pop up and they're all going to come and go. So you just want to make sure that you're utilizing it in a way that's focused on conversion and getting it into a format that you can control. Like so a lot of my posts, I am trying to drive them to my website, so hopefully I can do email retargeting to them. I want to get emails as much as possible or whatever contact info I can get from them, because then I own that and I can use that contact information for whatever I want for the future. So that's like the really the main thing to focus on and like you can drive yourself crazy with all the things that you could be doing.
Speaker 3:So just start somewhere, do what you can and then, if you can build onto it, it definitely could be a full-time job doing all of this. Yeah, so.
Speaker 1:I mean, you guys are our owners and our co -owners now and I feel like that responsibility, responsibility. I remember I think it was our first year doing this workshop I said something like hey, maybe if you own your store, you don't have to be the person posting on your, on your social media. You can offload that responsibility because, like you said, there's like you just listed, there's TikTok and Instagram and YouTube and also your Google marketing and then everything involved. And if you put that, that on only your shoulders, oh my gosh, it can, it can smother you and or it can pull away from what's actually the important part, which is like actually running the business itself. Do you guys have help when it comes to your marketing, or are you typically doing it yourself, or how do you kind of make it so that you don't have to be the one that's taking all the work?
Speaker 5:Yeah for sure. So when I first graduated college and first came to the business full time, I was doing all that. That was kind of what I was doing as far as social media. I got the new Punchmark website going and all that for our business. But yeah, I mean it was a lot, it was overwhelming. Of course seven years was it was a lot. It was overwhelming. Of course back or you know, seven years ago it was a lot different than what it is now. Um, and now that we've kind of expanded, we have two different locations and now, you know, with that there comes a whole lot more responsibility and managing that as well. Um, so now I have a social media manager, um, that she does a lot of the day-to-day postings for us and does all the reels and the TikTok.
Speaker 5:So don't ask me about that stuff, she handles it now, however, I will say it's important to know what you can do and, like everybody's clientele is different, I would say for sure, and find out what you do and what you're really good at and stick with that. Even though Jamie, she posts for us most days and like she keeps up with it, I still, from time to time, will get on there and show my face. As much as I really don't like doing that, it means a lot to our clients. I mean just being raw and being up front, and it doesn't have to be. You don't have to get in a suit and tie and you make it all commercial, like you know, for me and our clients. Specifically, I've heard that people you know they like to see me in my car doing a reel or whatever I mean it's. It doesn't have to be anything fancy at all, it's just get on there and start talking and show your face. Um, because when you see the face behind the brand, um, it means a lot to people.
Speaker 5:So that's what I've I've done, even as I've given up the responsibility of kind of managing the social media.
Speaker 3:So yeah, yeah, and then I'm I'm doing it all myself right now, but it is like my full-time role now, which is a huge blessing that I could get to focus on it. I um had my first child about three years ago. When that happened, I really kind of wanted a more backseat role. I wanted to get off the floor and I stayed home with her for the whole first year and I could do a lot of this from home and it just gave me the flexibility that I wanted to start my family and we had a great team at the store that was just handling it and they still handle it and they just rock and roll.
Speaker 3:So, and my degrees in marketing so it's really just what I love doing too. I'm passionate about it. So a lot of this stuff comes easy to me. I will say so now, that's pretty much what I focus on. Obviously, being a co-owner, I still wear lots of hats and do all the other things, but I do have an assistant that helps me with just like the actual posting and like responding and commenting and stuff. But yeah, it's pretty much me doing it all right now. That's crazy. I.
Speaker 1:I co-owners are just owners in general of businesses. It's so amazing the cause you have to be able to. You gotta know the, you know the, the how to set up the display cases. We also know how to do payroll and all the things in between, and the fact that you guys are able to have time for all that is just absolutely incredible to me. But I wanted to also ask about when it comes to this strategy around marketing.
Speaker 1:So we had talked about and had on previously a marketing expert that was talking about these 60% off the store sales, and then I was also starting to speak with some retailers about the idea of uh scrapping, especially with the price of gold.
Speaker 1:Is, I mean, is it the highest it's ever been? It was very close to the highest it's ever been and what value you might see in um balancing I don't want to say eating into your like consumer appetite, because in the end, you know, I kind of only have an appetite to buy so much luxury goods. But with these sales I'm almost wondering oh my gosh, are you going to like kind of cut down on the amount that people are interested in in shopping with you in the future when it comes to important stuff, like the holidays are around um major sales you might have around uh different vendors. Do you guys have any opinion around, except, for example, um longer shelf life products that you've maybe had for a while? Is it better to to just scrap it and kind of take the loss and not into eat into your consumer base? Or have you guys experimented with these uh 60% off the store, uh sales.
Speaker 5:Yeah, so we have done the 60% off six hours. We've done that, I think, twice now, and for us it's a huge success. You know, I feel like, and honestly, when we first started talking about doing, or whether or not we were going to do, this sale, we had those same questions. You know, hey, are you going to have those clients that wait for this sale if you do it every year? Are they going to just kind of wait it out and come in and shop that week or that day or whatever, and then be done for the rest of the year? And for us, I feel like the answer is yes and no. I mean, you're definitely going to have those people that just want to shop a sale. I think everybody's got clients that are that way. They just they come in and you give them 5% off and they're happy just because they think they're saving or because they're saving some kind of money. So we do have, you know, a little bit of that.
Speaker 5:But also for us, again, I feel like once you get somebody in the store, it's your way of building that relationship with them. So for us, instead of scrapping jewelry, we'd rather have someone come in to buy it, so you can make that connection, you can build that relationship. Even if it's their first time in the store buying something on sale, your hope is that they come back and you continue. They continue to shop with you and you can be their jeweler for life, things like that. So it's it's kind of a way to still get people in the store, get traffic coming in to make your mark and sort of build that relationship, build their trust so that way they can continue to shop.
Speaker 5:And yeah, you know we definitely some of our best customers. They will come shop at sale. But then we also, you know, think and expect them to come back in in Christmas and, you know, spend more money and make another purchase for their significant other or whatever. So kind of, I think, a little bit of both. We don't do a ton of scrapping I mean we have before but again, I feel like for us it's more important for us to get somebody in the store to try to sell them something, even if it's at a discount, just so we can kind of make that mark on them. Yeah, what about you, alex?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I've never done the 60% off sale things. With us being more branded. We can't discount most of our brands. So if we do have things marked down it's because it's really old and it's got to go. So we usually just have like a standing sale case that we start doing progressive markdowns on. But I do also do um a weekly news email newsletter on mondays. I call it markdown mondays, and it'll be like three items that we just marked down that we're pushing, and I have people that open that email religiously and are like I need to come see what got marked down today. So it does work. Of course there's still things that end up hanging around for way too long and sometimes it makes sense to scrap, sometimes it doesn't. We did just actually send off a big package of estate like just gold stuff that was dated, and we've got like a $15,000 check coming our way thanks to that.
Speaker 3:So only because gold's so high right now, though that doesn't always make sense. So yeah, I mean, at some point you got to do what you got to do to move the inventory and get the cash out.
Speaker 1:And so you mentioned estate jewelry. This ties in really well. So, National Rarities one of the sponsors here at the workshop and I know that you've had a series of National Rarities events at your store with estate buying. You've done a bunch of episodes with them. They've been a sponsor of the podcast before. We previously have spoken about hooking these clients in and having them come back, and same thing with the hyper sales. Do you find that the process of kind of turning of clienteling is that something that you are actually focusing on? Or is that just a byproduct of all the other efforts that you're pretty religiously with marketing your store? Like, are you focused on trying to get clients to come back multiple times or is it not so much about, like, the return customer and it's just we're going to do our efforts as best as we can, no matter what, and if they come back, then that's what will happen.
Speaker 3:Oh no, we're definitely focused on clienteling. I mean, that's my people make a pretty high commission, so that's that's their livelihood. We do events almost monthly at our store, so it's like always giving them something to talk about, different reasons to call people, and that we've just figured out a model that works for us. I think they really like just knowing, like, okay, this, this month we're talking about custom, this month we're talking about national rarities and selling and buying gold and trading in. So it's just because we offer so many different services, it can just be a lot sometimes to like give the whole elevator pitch of everything we can do for people. So having the events focuses on them so they know, like, who to call, what's the message. And then people will be like, oh, I didn't know you guys buy gold. It's like, yeah, we do it all the time actually, but we're just going to really talk about it right now because we have national rarities, keeps it fresh, exactly.
Speaker 5:Yeah, same for us too, you know, definitely trying to, you know, retain people and get them to come back.
Speaker 5:And I think for us too, you know, I would rather have somebody that comes in, you know, every occasion for their significant other and holidays, to spend, say, $400 or $500 every time they come in, versus that one guy that spends $10,000 on an engagement ring and then just forgets about it and never comes back in the shop with you, because we're all in the business of people. I mean, of course, we sell jewelry, we repair jewelry, do custom jewelry, but it's all about people, it's all about relationships and building those up with clients and getting them to come back, because that guy that spends four or five hundred dollars every time he comes in, eventually he's going to have some big milestone that comes up and he's going to spend even more than that too. So, um, you know it's, it's all in the business of dealing with people and building that relationship and doing everything you can to make your mark on people again and, uh, separate ourselves, ourselves from the big box stores and have people shop local, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And I'm a big fan of that, and we're going to just do maybe one or two more topics before we'll open it up for questions, if you guys might have questions. Actually, alex is a recurring guest on In the Loop and we're always talking about. My biggest interest is what it's like being a next generation retailer. So Alex's parents own or co-own now Keeper Jewelers, and Punchmark is doing a big focus on next generation jewelers and trying to encourage people to stay in the industry. Increasingly, people are either having to just, you know close their stores with no next of kin to come in. I'm sure you guys have also discussed this before. All right, everybody, we're going to take a quick break and hear a word from our sponsor. Good news everybody.
Speaker 1:Punchmark just released new digital marketing programs starting at just $199. Many of our listeners are Punchmark website clients and they trust us to handle their online branding and their e-commerce, but they've had their PPC and SEM grandfathered in with a local agency or even their radio station or newspaper. This can cause headaches as it increases the number of vendors you'll deal with, leaves a lot of question marks for what is actually getting done effectively, and is a generic solution not tailored to the needs of a jewelry store. And not to mention, many of these local agencies also service their competitors. And if you're existing in a small market, that's no bueno. Punchmark's digital marketing team just released new packages that are the perfect way to consolidate your marketing vendors and grow your business with our digital marketing services. Sign up for our new digital marketing products for as little as $1.99 a month for our SEO traffic booster, or elevate your online sales with our product and e-commerce SEO plan for only $3.99. More advanced options, including PPC, sem and paid social, are available as well. If you want to get fancy, or have us handle what your previous company was also handling for you, no additional dashboards or onboarding fees. Your add-ons will just get added right to your existing Punchmark plan. That's why they call it add-ons. Visit punchmarkcom slash marketing for more information or ask your account manager about getting started with Punchmark digital marketing. Today. Again, that's punchmarkcom slash marketing. Let our experts be your experts.
Speaker 1:And now back to the show. And we're back and I kind of want to talk about, for example, what it's like being a next generation jeweler. I spoke with you guys yesterday. We were just doing some interviews in some of these other rooms and talking about what it's like, you know, first of all, managing the relationship with your parents, and also what it's like taking kind of increasing amounts of responsibility from them. And without stressing the relationship you might say, alex, I remember you mentioned that you started being in the store as a child and then increasing your responsibility. How have you kind of set your sights on that relationship? Is maintaining moments of non-work talk a important part to you, or do you does it kind of just ebb and flow as it comes?
Speaker 3:Yeah, definitely ebbs and flows. I mean me and my parents, we work really well together and I think that we do because we've worked on our relationship. We actually hired a family business coach for a while that would work with us remotely and even came on site with us for several days and we had like full on, you know crying fest and everything to get through to like where we're at now. And I think what really helps is we all have clear defined roles. So I do the marketing and kind of oversee the front line, my mom does all the merchandising and like inventory management and my dad is all like finance, payroll, paying bills, anything revolving money and since we all have our areas, like yeah, we can all give our input on another area, but ultimately, like that person has like the veto on that topic, you know.
Speaker 3:So like if I'm like, no, we're gonna do this, they're like, okay, If we'd like marketing, they're like okay, we're going to trust you on that. And if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. And honestly, I'm my own worst critic on all that stuff anyway. So when something doesn't work, I really beat myself up. Um, but no, I think we just we communicate well. We have lunch together pretty much every single day at work and have our own little private meetings, and I think that helps that we just communicate a lot. It is hard to keep it at work. I'm sure all you guys are witness that too. So sometimes my husband's like, okay, please stop talking about work.
Speaker 3:You know so. But yeah, I mean, it's taken a lot of time to get to where we're at, but luckily my parents like they get it, that like they have to, let go for me to take over and I don't have to really fight them on that, which is probably the best part.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and Caleb and I was speaking with you, and your brother and you guys already have a have a date in mind for when you're going to be the ones that have the full control. Yeah, can you talk us through what that experience has been like?
Speaker 5:Yeah for sure. So we were very fortunate to have Stephen Barnes. When he was with Edge Retail Academy, we were his very first client back in 2019. He helped us tremendously kind of take our business to another level, and he was our consultant for, you know, the past four years now, and now, of course, he's president of IGO, but he's also in our back pocket. He's right down the road about two hours away. So we've really been one of his kind of clients that we've appreciated everything he's done for us. But he's also helped us with the succession planning. So we had our Next Generation event back in January when he kind of headed that up, and so then a couple weeks after that we went and met with him.
Speaker 5:So January 1st of 26 is when the transition will happen between my parents and my brother and I. And what's really cool is, I think, next year and my parents are at a point now where my mom still does the payroll. She still keeps the books. She does all that from home. My dad is still in the store most every day just checking on things, making sure everything's running smoothly. But they're still at a point now, I think, a little bit different than Alex, your parents to where they're really kind of taking a step back a little bit more so, I think, than your parents are and letting Spencer and I, my brother and I just really handle things more and more on a day-to-day basis.
Speaker 5:But then next year, all of 2025, we're really going to use that as mom and dad y'all kind of step away. Let us do our own thing, let us make the mistakes, let us buy everything, let us handle everything and learn from our mistakes. So we'll use that kind of transition period of next year to kind of I mean, we're already getting our feet wet, but I guess you could say really get our feet wet next year with it all Um, before that transition period starts, um, uh, January 1st, 26. So so excited, yeah, Pretty excited about that, wow, can't wait.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, I'll have to do a follow-up after maybe like a little bit of time being.
Speaker 1:You know, totally there, cause that would be, oh man. I would have stress out that I think if it's already with you guys, I think we'll open it up, for if any of you have questions. I know that we're all amongst peers here and that's kind of what the point of this workshop is, but I wanted to have the opportunity to kind of discuss actually like what is working, what's not, how we view things, because the number one thing I've been impressed about in my now seven years of being in the industry is how transparent everybody is in the jewelry industry about what is working, what doesn't work, and also I know it's typically within buying groups, but just like people's willingness to kind of share oh, this line is incredible, or, hey, I'm trying to buy specifically this item, does anyone have a spare one of those? It always kind of warms my heart how transparent everybody is. So, with that said, does anybody have any questions or any kind of maybe, yeah suggestions that you guys might have Anything?
Speaker 4:I just have a question actually for Alex, for like your Instagram or your social media in general. So I was just commenting to Kimmy how many followers you have, so how much of like, how do you, how do you think that you've grown that and how much of an impact does it make with the people coming in your story?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's probably like the most asked question I get actually. So I look, I focused on it a lot when it was a lot easier to grow on Instagram, so I will say that. So the game is totally different now than it used to be, but I would give our success with that to working with influencers really is what blew us up with the follower count and when giveaways were working. So for a while there I was doing win it Wednesday. Every Wednesday we were giving something away and you had to do the whole like, like, tag, follow, share thing to enter to win, and I would usually do it partnered with an influencer. Also, it used to be a lot more affordable to work with influencers. Now it's getting harder and harder and just more expensive.
Speaker 3:I stopped doing it probably about six months ago because I wasn't seeing the same results from it anymore. It is so hard now to grow in followers and, honestly, I'm not even really focused on growing followers anymore because I feel like it's the quality way more than the quantity, because I definitely have still a good chunk of those followers that don't engage with any of our content. Right, so it doesn't really matter what your follower account is if they don't engage. So it's more important to have the right followers. Reels are probably the best way to get that, but still, sometimes you get like the troll followers when you're posting reels. So studying your content and kind of figuring out how what is attracting the right followers and the right people for you is it's different for everybody, I think you know, but definitely it has. It's converted for us now, but it took a good like two years of focusing on that and focusing on converting the followers to make it work. So yeah, if that answers your question.
Speaker 1:Any others? Yes, sir.
Speaker 6:I have a comment. We just got back from Mississippi, louisiana Jewelers and we had a marketing guy speak to us and he said something that spoke to me that I think would benefit everyone in the room, in that he said be yourself. And what he meant by that was I'm in the real estate appraisal business and so I know a lot of real estate agents and I look at what makes those guys successful, and it's usually the ones who are really worried about their customers and being themselves. So it's not a fake persona that you see online, like what you see in that guy is what you get. And the marketing guy at our convention said hey, look, look at this picture of his family.
Speaker 4:And it was just like a picture you took on your iPhone.
Speaker 6:He said it wasn't a professional picture and he said that takes guts, that's real, that's what people want. They want to see you and uh, and I thought that that really hit me in that you know we're a small town in rural mississippi, but that's the way that this business has succeeded all these years is because you know the whole community knows the family and they know exactly who they are. And I think that being yourself is pretty clutch, and because the one thing they said and I think y'all mentioned it yesterday in the seminar is that sometimes jewelry can be intimidating, and so the guy was saying look at that, that's not intimidating.
Speaker 6:You know these guys, they're your hometown guys and I think that, especially on the social media aspect of it is just be yourself, and I think that would go a long way. Instead of worrying about making everything so fancy and pretty in these videos, but just casual videos looking at the screen and showing new stuff. I think that's a cool way to do it.
Speaker 1:I think back about during COVID and right in the beginning I remember there might have been some of you in here but these Facebook sales.
Speaker 1:They were Facebook Lives and people would pick like three products and they would do a like a five minute or 10 minute lead up to each product and it was like, oh, we mark this one down like 30% off, 50% off, and we're going to sell just this one and we're going to start the bidding at whatever this.
Speaker 1:And they were so it was. I think the word that might apply to what you're just discussing is authentic and it was just so like, like, visceral. It was right there and you could tell that they were trying something that maybe, like, was outside of their comfort zone, and I had so much, uh, like, identified with that, so much that these people were willing to put themselves out there and try something that you know was unproven, uh, of course, the circumstances were less than ideal, but it really kind of made me, um, identify and feel, um, something for these people that I had never met before yeah, I do find that the content that I just like turn on the camera shoot, don't plan anything, yeah seems to do the best, I don't know why.
Speaker 3:So like the unpolished raw stuff I think you guys are really good at that too. Like, and you have to just like, not be afraid to fail with the with social media. Like, just put stuff out there If it. If you don't like how it looks after a while, you can delete it, you know like, but then look at what gets the best engagement, what gets the most likes, and then try to replicate that Like once you figure out what your people want to see. So, but definitely like couples, people want to see people, you know. So you have to mix it up and that's what's worked for us.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 5:For us too, you know, with our family business and when guests walk in we're super not pushy people. We're in the South and North Carolina to where we're just, you know. Of course we want to make sales and things like that, but we're just just your hometown family jeweler, you know nothing, nothing too uptight or or intimidating for that. But people can, you know, when they walk in they can definitely see that way or kind of have that old guy sure comes to use car salesman guy coming up here to sell me a piece of jewelry, and that's not what we want, you know. So even a couple years ago we were trying to figure out like, what should we wear to work? Talking about my brother and I and my dad, and you know, do we wear a suit and tie? Or like, do we not? Or like, how does that feel?
Speaker 5:And actually I polled a couple of my friends who had bought stuff from me and stuff like that. I'm like, hey, when you, when you walk in the store for us, what do you want me to wear? Like, what makes you feel comfortable? And it wasn't a suit and tie, it was, hey, wear a golf shirt and some khakis. And sure enough, that's what we wear and that's what we feel comfortable in. And you know you want to match sort of your presence of in the store versus online as well and have that all kind of blend together.
Speaker 1:Very cool.
Speaker 4:Unless anyone has anything pressing, I think we'll probably start to wrap it up right there. Uh, so this episode oh yes, one.
Speaker 4:So I know there's parents who are doing different roles right now and we're talking about like in two years, you know you're gonna be transitioning. I don't know about your parents, because they're just so active, yeah, um, so how long do you see? Because their roles are like big, you know, and that takes a lot of time if you're just going to start taking them over. So how long, and who do you see? Like? Are they going to train somebody to take that over or are you going to have to figure it out?
Speaker 5:yeah, um, I mean for us, for you know, my brother and I we both manage our own locations, um, so I feel like we have a pretty good handle of the day-to-day things that my father would do and what he does on a day-to-day, so that I'm not super worried about. But my mom, I mean, she does QuickBooks, she does all that stuff and that's. I do not want to do that but I'm going to have to, or somebody is, you know, obviously. So I don't know what we're going to do with that yet. To be honest with you, that's probably the main thing that we've got to figure out. I know my mom. She said that she would hang on and do that for a couple more years, but I've got kids. My brother's got like she's a grandma now and she wants to be with our grandkids. I'm sorry she's a GJ, she's trying to be trying to be cool.
Speaker 5:Anyway, yeah, that's right Sorry mom, no, but so you know she said that she would hold on for a couple more years and do that stuff for us, and that's fine, I mean, if she really wants to. But I know she don't want to. She's ready to be done too, like my dad, and they deserve it. They deserve everything that they have coming to them in retirement. So I don't know, we may have to outsource it, we may have to get somebody in there. Honestly, with our plan in place, we need to figure something out next year to have a full year of at least of that, to get whoever it is that's going to do that, to get them used to it. And I'm going to train somebody.
Speaker 3:Yeah, mom's got to train somebody, that's right so yeah yeah, and then our plan is my mom's.
Speaker 3:Actually already we hired someone to kind of fill her role and it's been going on for like six months now. I don't think they're like fully done transferring yet, but my mom did just take like the last two months off. She has not even like set foot in the store, so that's been a good test. So she's testing that out. She wants to be a full-time GG with grandma, not, you know, graduate gemologist. So she's working on that.
Speaker 3:My dad, I think, will work until the day he dies and that's fine. He's like what would I do if I retired? I'd have to get a hobby. You know to play golf or something. So he loves it, it's his hobby that makes him money. So and I told him I'm never going to force you out, like you stay as long as you want. So I kind of see him staying for a long time and then they're going to keep transferring ownership over the next 10 years. To me I do see probably like my husband filling my dad's role eventually, because I need someone I can super trust to do the numbers. I am not a numbers person, I am a creative people person. So I need someone else to do that part for sure. So that's our working plan for now.
Speaker 1:So inspiring. I love hearing about those relationships with family owned businesses because I mean, that's like the lifeblood of the entire nation. So any last questions, all right.
Speaker 4:What's up Stu Third location or expand an existing one.
Speaker 3:I'm expanding right now. We had three stores. At one point we went back down to two. So less is more. We're trying to focus on just fully maximizing our two locations before we ever think about another one, cause a third is is three times the headaches, um. But so, yeah, we just acquired the building right next door to our flagship store and we are talking to people about connecting the buildings and expanding and it is going to be a massive project. So I'm definitely excited about, like my parents being involved, for this to be like kind of our last big project together before my mom's probably stepping back a little bit.
Speaker 1:So we actually did a uh in the loop episode all about alex's expansion efforts and we're going to try to follow that um as there's more updates around it, and we're going to because, um, alex is the first jeweler that I've been close with, that will, that is in the process of an expansion effort and I know that it might be on the minds of some of you and I think it's. You know, that's the kind of documentation that I think would be really interesting to be added to the jewelry ecosystem. Sorry, I cut you off, oh no.
Speaker 5:I mean for us two. Yeah, not a third store for now. I mean you'd have to have another brother.
Speaker 1:Don't see that happening no.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I mean for us, though when we had the one location and we started thinking about the second store for us it was kind of a cool thing. We originated in Kannapolis so we had originated there. Of a cool thing we originated in Kannapolis so we had originated there. Then we left when the whole town kind of shut down and then our second store kind of went back home for us, which is where I manage now. So the whole story behind that was pretty cool and I feel like too, for my brother and I, like our relationship it got, it's never been bad. But once we had our own stores and we could kind of manage our own people what we want, it really kind of helped us and was a benefit to our relationship and just our business altogether. And we're fortunate now to have in kind of two separate areas where they're both growing in different sort of aspects and we're fortunate in that way. But yeah, thirst Tour I wouldn't say is off the table in the future, but it's not on the forefront at all right now.
Speaker 1:I think that we'll wrap it right there. So, again, like I mentioned, this podcast will be published in about two weeks and we'll have like a little bit of a lead up to it. If you're interested, we publish episodes every Tuesday and it's on Spotify, apple Podcasts, pretty much anywhere you want to get your podcast. If you want to read more about our story, we're on punchmarkcom slash loop and that is L-O-U-P-E like the jeweler's loop, and we are trying to add a little bit of a voice and be the voice in your ear on your drive to work, when you're at the bench, when you're setting up your display cases. We're trying to kind of fill that void and interview really interesting people. We do retail roundtables as often as I can. I'm trying to do them once a quarter with retailers usually a bunch of our clients, but sometimes not and getting a chance to speak to them about what's on their minds, what they're working on, because one thing I've learned about all of you is that you are always working on some type of project, whether that's expanding your website, adding another location, adding a new line, there's always something to kind of you know, explore, expand, and I love hearing about it. So if you're interested? Yeah, drop us a subscription. We come out every Tuesday and I appreciate you all listening. Thank you so much and enjoy. We come out every Tuesday and I appreciate you all listening. Thank you so much and enjoy the rest of the workshop. Thanks everybody. All right, everybody. That's the end of the show. Thank you so much for listening.
Speaker 1:Whether you listen live or you listened to this recording, it really means the world to me, and a very special thank you again to the people who came up to me at the client workshop and mentioned that they were a fan of the show, that they listened to it, whether once or regularly. It really made my day and, honestly, when a couple of people came up to me and told me while I was standing with my coworkers and I want you to know it made me seem very cool in front of them, my coworkers and I want you to know it made me seem very cool in front of them. So I really appreciate you guys gassing me up like that. I want to say a special thank you to our guest, alex from Kiefer Jewelers, also known as Diamond Diaries, as well as Caleb from Falls Jewelers. I really appreciate them sharing their wisdom and also their experiences.
Speaker 1:This episode was edited by Paul Suarez, with music by Ross Cockrum. Don't forget to rate the podcast on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and, honestly, leave some room in your calendar next year for the Punchmark Client Workshop. We do it at the end of April every year and I think it's a great time, so make sure you come out. Thanks, everybody, and we'll see you next week. Bye.