GROW Counseling
GROW Counseling
Are you in a relationship with a narcissist?
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Dr. Wendy Dickinson talks with GROW therapist Porsha Jones around the topic of narcissism, especially how people can recognize narcissism in partners and what they can do about it.
Hi, everyone. Dr. Wendy Dickinson here on the Grow Counseling podcast. Thanks for joining us today. Today I have Portia Jones on with us. Portia is an amazing marriage and family therapist who works out of our Buckhead office. And I asked her to join us because one of the conversations that has come up a lot is around this topic of narcissism. So I've asked Portia to come on and chat with us a little bit about, you know, recognizing these tendencies in our partners and then what to what do we do about it. So Portia, welcome.
SPEAKER_00Thank you, Wendy. Thanks for having me back on.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. So let's just jump right in. Like how do you coach people on recognizing uh or naming what they're seeing in terms of narcissism?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and um that can be a pretty sensitive topic, actually. Um, and with talking with individual clients of mine, um or couples of mine about, you know, what is uh narcissism? And I feel like in today's society it's kind of a label that can get thrown around pretty haphazardly, actually. But, you know, I do want to take a moment just to kind of define what narcissistic personality disorder is. It is an actual clinical disorder, but um, your partner may also just be exhibiting what we would call narcissistic traits or tendencies, which can also be very problematic, and I'll talk about that as well. But the actual disorder in the definition, it is a mental condition in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, they have an excessive need for admiration and a disregard for others' feelings. But Wendy behind this kind of display of extreme confidence that we may see does lie a fragile sense of self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism. And I think that's where um well, it's known as narcissistic injury. And I do think that's where a lot of interpersonal issues arise within uh my individuals or couples that I see.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I feel like in the last five to eight years, maybe there's really been a rise in this label narcissism or narcissist. Uh, I've I've seen it with my individual clients who come in and say, Oh, I'm obviously married to a narcissist, and they've been on Google and looked up some traits and have kind of jumped to a diagnosis. It's kind of what you were referencing earlier, that there's a spectrum, right? Like it's not just a categorical yes or no. There's sometimes people can have traits or tendencies without meeting full criteria for a diagnosis.
SPEAKER_00You're absolutely right. Um, it it is a spectrum. Like when you're in a relationship with a partner that is exhibiting maybe traits or tendencies uh versus the actual disorder, it can feel like there's no difference. It can feel like this is really painful, this is exhausting, this is scary, this is confusing, and you know, it can lead to mental health issues within within yourself and a breakdown in the relationship as well.
SPEAKER_01So that sounds pretty challenging to deal with.
SPEAKER_00It is, it is. I I do want to to address maybe certain signs um that you know you can identify with that can maybe help you understand what it is that you're dealing with, um, what type what level of condition you may be dealing with within your your partner. Partners are now more exposed to each other, and they are becoming more and more symptomatic of these interactions with a potential um narcissistic partner. One thing that uh that I think stands out that partners may notice is that it seems like it's all about their partner. They need to be the center of attention, and this may lead to even further isolation from your friends or family. It may lead to jealous outrage if you pursue your own interests or connections. Something else that stands out is really this pattern of how you and your partner argue. If your partner may twist and bend facts often or refuse to be accountable, or throws tantrums or stonewalls you often, that could be a sign that you're in a relationship with a narcissist or someone with narcissist tendencies. If you're at one moment being adored by your partner and then there's this kind of switch in their mood to anger or cruelty, um, that could be another sign of that. I like to say that when you feel idolized and discarded, that's one way I describe that particular characteristic. If you find yourself just feeling unworthy or defective or not good enough, or you just, you know, can't seem to make your partner happy, or those are all telltale signs that you may be in a relationship with a narcissist.
SPEAKER_01I think those are really good examples because there's uh you know, the idea that we're looking for these clues in someone else, but I think part of what you're getting at is you can also look for how you're feeling, you can look internally. How are how am I feeling? How does this impact me in the relationship? Because it sounds like part of what you're saying is, you know, you're gonna feel like you're riding this roller coaster with a narcissist, or you're gonna feel like you're you're the one who's crazy because things kind of shift around really quickly. And so it's I think a lot of times, especially when I'm working with individuals, they've they've struggled to put a label on it because their own experience feels really disjointed and they start to ask, what's wrong with me? Yeah, that's exactly right.
SPEAKER_00You know, one of the, I think, most um toxic forms of psychological abuse from narcissists is this is what we call gaslighting. And what gaslighting is, it's when you're undermining your partner's reality by denying their facts, right? Denying what what you see, what you hear. And that leads to you feeling um confused, questioning yourself. It can lead to increased anxiety, a sense of hopelessness, which can lead to depression. And so it's really difficult. It can be really difficult to get a handle on, you know, what's actually happening to you because your your narcissistic partner is really, you know, playing mind games. These are strategies and tactics that your narcissistic partner can use to maintain control of their reality, you know, distorted, their distorted reality.
SPEAKER_01That idea of validating your own experience for yourself, you know, trusting that if you feel controlled, then there may be something that you need to look more closely at in the relationship. Or if you always feel guilty or like you're the problem, if you're noticing that in conversations, you become the one who's blamed, and your partner is usually the one who has some justified reason for what they've done or doesn't own any of the responsibility. I think all of those are reasons to really validate your own experience and also try to try to dig a little deeper and figure out what's going on here. It might be narcissism, it could be something else, but it shouldn't always feel one-sided in a relationship.
SPEAKER_00You're right. And I do encourage, you know, when I talk about strategies to be okay. It's like you're saying, it's it's really first, you know, developing an awareness and kind of reflecting and gathering information on what it is that you're feeling. You know, reality check with friends. This is a good time to reach out and have a support system and share what's happening with you and your concerns with someone else. And that that also helps minimize it, minimize you from feeling somehow that you're crazy or that um you're delusional if your partner is gaslighting you. So that's important as well.
SPEAKER_01I think that's really good because a lot of times, again, on the individual side, I know you you most often see the couples, but my work is a lot of times with the individuals. And what I see is that it's developed so gradually over time that it's hard for people to name it. It doesn't start out this bad, it sort of ends up this bad. And people really question themselves. And I like this idea of fact-checking outside of yourself, like finding somebody who is a confidant who you can trust, and to say, does this feel normal? Is this typical? Like in your relationship, have you ever experienced anything like this? I think that's such a great idea because it gives people not just a sense of confidence about labeling what they're experiencing, but I I also think a barometer for measuring like, am I being too sensitive? Am I being too much? Because I know that's one thing that they they may hear from their narcissistic partners is your feelings are too much or you're just too sensitive. It's a way of dismissing their experience and what they're feeling.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely, and keeping themselves in control. Um, but also Wendy, there's, you know, very commonly there's coexisting problems with your, you know, being with a narcissistic partner that can also distract you. And kind of what you were talking about, this kind of gradual progression of, you know, these small interactions that, you know, one day you're like, how did I get here? And you're kind of reflecting back and trying to track. Sometimes there's other distractions, such as drug or alcohol use, that may be a topic of discussion or maybe something that you and your partner have relational disruptions about. Physical, sexual, financial abuse could also be frequent coexisting problems and parental alienation, uh, which, you know, all of those are factors that contribute to, you know, that feeling stuck. So it's really something that progressively this kind of cycle of abuse, you know, leads uh a person to feel really stuck and isolated.
SPEAKER_01One of the things that I see as a high level of shame and guilt from people, and I think that that level of shame and guilt keeps them from a lot of times making a decision to leave or stand up or ask, ask for help, insist on counseling because they they somehow feel guilty that they've contributed to this or they picked the wrong person or they should have seen it or they shouldn't be so sensitive. And so I think that can really be a barrier to people getting help. And I I love that that we're naming that and saying, hey, it doesn't matter, you know, whether this there are 10 contributing factors. This is not okay. And there is help to be had. And sometimes that means that you stay in the relationship and you work on it, and sometimes that means that you transition to a safer environment, whether that's a separation or it's exploring a long-term change in the relationship, but that each individual in the relationship is worth uh they're they're worth it, they're valuable, and they're they it it's okay for them to ask for what they need and to expect that they would be able to be in a relationship where their partner was trying. We're we're never talking about partners being perfect, but this idea that they're leaning in and they're trying and they're doing their best, they're bringing their best to the table. That's the part that I look for is is your partner bringing his or her best to the table? Do they seem like they care about you in a genuine way? And yeah, we're always gonna have rough edges and things to smooth out or work through, but at the core, does it feel like there's a connection from someone who cares deeply about you?
SPEAKER_00That's a significant um uh difference in, you know, identifying if you're with a narcissistic partner or not, because they won't have a narcissistic partner, won't have the ability to regard your feelings, they won't have the ability to empathize with you, they won't have the ability to show up for you unless they need something from you. And it's unfortunate. Um, but you know, specific tips are to kind of be okay, you know, similar to what you were saying about the decisions that one can make about short-term or long-term changes, about you know, staying in a relationship like that. Um, it's really trying to minimize your exposure, even with within your home. Uh for example, if you can shift your work schedule, kind of mix your days and nights with your partner, that can limit your exposure. If you have the flexibility to say work at different times than your partner's maybe sleep schedule, um, that can be helpful. But create small safe havens in the house, you know, kind of these little hideaways where you can kind of take breaks from from your partner. And depending on what kind of narcissistic traits your partner exhibits, they may want more from you. If they do, which will lead to a lot of exhaustion, you really want to increase your self-care. But if your partner is exhibiting more, say covert narcissistic traits, then they may ignore you and you may feel abandoned. Those are the moments where you can kind of reframe your experience that, hey, at least I'm not getting torn down or we're not in constant arguments, and really focus on cultivating interests of your own and staying busy and finding things that you like to do. Um, picking your battles with your partner, I think it's really important as well. So some of those are ideas of what you can do, you know, in the home. If you're if your narcissistic partner doesn't like outdoors, guess what? I would make outdoors something that I put into my schedule every day that helps minimize the exposure. You know, inform yourself with information if you feel that you may be living with a narcissistic partner, um, and and understand this condition. I think that really helps partners um maintain some control and power in in their situation.
SPEAKER_01That's so great. I think there's a um a little bit of a uh tricky part of yourself that you have to call forth to figure out how to get your met with a narcissist. So, what about from a couple's perspective? I a lot of what I hear is is fear from the individuals that they're not going to be able to stand their ground or they're gonna get beat up in the couple session, or maybe even long term it makes things worse. How how does that unfold in a in couples work when you have somebody who might have some narcissistic traits?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's a really good question. Um, because all all the things you mentioned are absolutely a partner's fear that somehow the therapeutic process is gonna be completely gaslighted and they won't be heard or they won't be believed. But just like with any disorder, you know, from my perspective, it's I'm gonna show up, I'm going to focus on you as a person that I that I care about, that you know, none of us is perfect, you know, all of us have some brokenness. And it's a way that I can clinically lean into, you know, how do I view working with this system, regardless of what each partner is accusing the other partner of. So I think really focusing on building up a therapeutic relationship of really accepting initially, accepting how each partner is showing up. And I think over time, over time, as you can discuss certain behaviors, specific um incidents that are being brought into the therapy room and allow the partner to be able to gradually discover how their behaviors are impacting their relationship. I'm not gonna lean out there and start labeling any type of personality disorder, especially narcissism, because that can lead to a trigger for a person that's truly suffering from narcissism to only lie, blame, attack, and these, you know, those kind of um incidences can lead to to even violence. So it's really building up therapeutic relationship and accepting that, hey, everyone has a piece of brokenness and I'm here to support you, I care about you, and that helps the therapeutic process along.
SPEAKER_01I think that the more that people, both, both partners feel supported, the more buy-in that they have and they the more progress that we see in the relationship. Even if the outcome is that they decide to go different directions, there's still a higher level of working ability within that counseling environment than if somebody feels blamed or criticized or labeled right out of the gate.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, that could prematurely up just urupt the clinical process. So I mean, it it's great when I when I get you know narcissists in the therapy room. I think you know they're that's really hopeful that you know they're even willing to be in a space and and get some type of guidance. Um so I think that's that's really hopeful when they do end up in my therapy room.
SPEAKER_01It's a great point. I mean, they I think if you go on Google or you do you do some reading, it's very often that narcissists almost get labeled as monsters. And the the reality is a lot of times these patterns of behavior develop over time, and they are ways of them trying to find a way to be okay. And it might not be appropriate behavior, and there might need to be some boundaries set, but it doesn't mean that they are 100% a bad person or that 100% of their intentions are bad. It's the way that they're going about trying to get their needs met that is unhelpful or hurtful to the people around them that need to be adjusted. So I I love the hopeful perspective that you bring there. I suspect that not just as a result of all the stress that people have been under, but also because you know, the relationships have kind of been under a microscope. I think some of them are gonna emerge stronger and better off because people spent, you know, eight, ten weeks locked in a small space together. And some of them, it's gonna be i impossible. I was gonna say hard, but I think truly impossible to go back to not knowing or not seeing the way that the relationships were before. So I suspect that we will start to see more and more people dealing with these kinds of issues in their relationships.
SPEAKER_00I absolutely agree. And I think um for a myriad of reasons, I think that um to your point, it's you now, you know, based on this kind of increased exposure even, you know, to your partner, you're gonna see things that you hadn't seen before, or you know, now that who's lived through a pandemic before? I guess now we can say we have, but you never know what that brings out in yourself and your partner. And so um absolutely I think there's going to be an uptick in in in couples um, you know, reaching out for for help for their relationship, just not really knowing how to navigate through what's what's now been noticed that you can't ignore, right? You can't go back and like you said, unknow it. So, you know, we're here to help. That's a good thing. You know, we have a place, a safe place for couples, just like just like those couples we've we've been discussing.
SPEAKER_01Great. I think it's a great place to end, is we're here to help. We have a safe place for you. There's also a lot of information on our website at growcounseling.com if you want to check that out. Portia, thanks for being on today. I think this was super helpful. Um, I hope that people heard that there's a path forward and there's hope and that you can heal and you are valuable. So we uh look forward to you tuning in on the next podcast. Take care of yourself.