Episode 7 - Mass & Jenzo Beyond the Work: Catching Up on What Matters

A reflective conversation between Mass and Jenzo on coaching, identity, and the space between performance and presence. From burnout to self-worth, they explore what can easily get lost in the doing — and how we might return to what really matters.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:25

Hi, mate. Hello. How are you? I'm good. I'm good. So we're back here. I think five weeks in. What have we done? I think

SPEAKER_02 0:38

you're

SPEAKER_00 0:38

about seven

SPEAKER_02 0:38

weeks, bro.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

Charlie, Gaffer, Rach, Chris, this is the sixth week, the first one being us. Right, right, right. So, back around. This then just being me and you, a little review where we're up to with the pod, conversations that have happened, where you're up to, what's been going on with you, your work, your life, me, same.

UNKNOWN 1:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Yeah, just a little chin work, just a little catch

SPEAKER_02 1:09

up. Nice. The first thing that comes to mind is it's like a reflective point. It's like a forced reflective point to jump on the podcast. I think, firstly, the podcast has been so nice to see it come back alive. It's one of those ones where it oftentimes feels like a level of love amongst everything else that we need to get done and the deliverables that need to get done. But the conversations you've been having and how I can see how much fire it gives you that is pretty cool I'm here to listen to the Chris Bodman one but everyone else I've listened to it's really nice to To listen to the manner in which you're trying to open these conversations, which is cool. I think to the right fitness professionals out there, or anyone, but largely the fitness professionals, hearing the level of deeper level of meaning and pursuit of mastery and challenge and all that kind of stuff is quite cool. And I think you get that from being in the game for a certain amount of time and trying to be conscious and seeing the opportunities around you and the challenges around you. around you and the narratives around you and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, there's a little bit of a modern wisdom-esque approach to it, which I'm really enjoying. I know we were bantering about it, but Chris Woodimson, Craig Massey's coming for you.

SPEAKER_00 2:30

It's the word you use there, consciousness, that's the thing. That was my intention going into it was... My aim through the conversations on the pod was to encourage everybody on the other side to be fully present. And I think... We're all guilty of this. When we're asked certain questions, we almost go into a bit of a performance because we've got a preformed answer. There's a story that we've already told and so on and so forth. It comes a little bit more performative. So my aim with this, and not to be contrarian or not to be different, but just to be more real, was to try and... be a little looser with the structure a little less interviewee a little more open so that we can both be ourselves so that the conversation becomes more real and they become more present allow space for a long pause to think about what you want to say and stuff like that and as a result of that then it's become it's less of a labour of love it's actually really enjoyable and I look forward to every conversation I have looked forward to every conversation that I've had there's not been that previously there's always been a sense of um I guess... Outcomes that you need to hit. Yeah, like how good is this going to be? And concern about it not being good and so on and so forth, where I've gone into it almost carefree. Almost like, well, it'll be what it'll be and trusting that being honest and being open will just uncover some things that either will or won't be interesting to those that are listening. And I think that's the thing. Maybe I'm a bit older and a bit more experienced and potentially a little bit wiser than what I was a couple of years back when we first did it and so maybe I'm able to see that more clearly and put less pressure on myself around that um But the outcome then is not up to me. That's

SPEAKER_02 4:32

the cool thing. Yeah, but I think you've hit the nail on the head there. There's two things, right? One is the performative aspect, so the words you used there. I think a lot of the fitness industry is wrapped in the performance, which we can talk about in a second. And then secondly, you two, three years ago, because you were new in that head of education role there had to have been a performance element to it that pressure where now there's a level of like i keep using the word in in recent weeks but like there's a level of stoicism around the kind of educator you want to be and the kind of philosophy and education that we want the pfca to be about and the kind of message we want jamonas to hear like there's there's something quite grounded quite um um strong about that whole thing which means that you don't need to perform but on that performative piece It's funny because the moment you said that, in relation to the reflection, how much we've done over the last few weeks, where PFCA and Gemona is becoming. And obviously we recently had that trip to Adidas. And just for the context to the listeners, so Matt and I went to go support ATHX at Adidas HQ in Germany. And to be at the campus with 5,000 employees, it was nuts. And we presented a... an education seminar for the coaches who are full-time employed at Adidas HQ Gym and some gym owners from, sorry, some coaches from CrossFit Nuremberg. And it was amazing. We spent the whole morning lecturing on the philosophies of coaching excellence that would then contribute to whether clients were to go test through ATHX or any other fitness comp. Anyway, and by the end of the day, one of the CrossFit Gym head coaches He was like, he was literally missing the mark on all our education. And they went on to be like, you know, we coach the back squat really well. Every time in our session, we spend 15 minutes drilling everyone in the class, you know, this amazing, you know, technique around back squats. And Matt and I both looked at each other, we were like, okay like that's a performance you just want to elaborate on that because i mean i felt like at that point i was like how much work do we actually have to do still in the industry yep um

SPEAKER_00 7:03

yeah i'll elaborate on that i think the feeling that you and I got when we looked at each other was it's the reality and the challenge is that everybody in that room were bloody good people and they were attentive and they listened to our waffle all day so first and foremost fair play to them but then there are things like that where still for coaches who have been in the game for a long time and arguably are doing a better job than most still see that it's necessary the movement comes first so you know we the the definition of success is well we teach the bat squat really well as opposed to we offer the right squat exercise to challenge the client in the squat movement pattern. Whether that be back squat, front squat, zurch squat, goblet squat, whatever. But that wasn't considered. It was, well, the back squat exists and we coach it really well. And here are our cues that we use. So to your point, it just becomes performative. It's just a learned experience of, well, this is what we do. And then you doing that well then how well you deliver the pre-learned cues. So knees out, chest up, all the spiel starts to come, as opposed to thinking, does that person need to get their knees out? Does that person, will chest up actually help this person? And you might say, well, maybe chest up's not the right cue. That doesn't matter. The question that wants to be asked is, is back squat the right exercise? And that's not demonising back squat. That's just making it clear that bat squat is one way to challenge the squat. It's not the only way. And so that's the thing, right? It was still the case that, yeah, that guy who had some great things to say and sees things in some great ways and what have you and contributed great through the day, 10 years into the game, still see the bat squat as the thing. So that was the sense that you and I got like, okay, shit. Yeah, how does this ever get turned around? And I think... Speaking for myself, and I mentioned it on the call last night, I'm more at peace now that the majority of the industry will never. I think when we first started out in this education space I had it in my mind of I'd like to turn everybody's mind around not to my way but just to be more aware of what's going on whereas now it's never going to happen it's never going to happen so yeah it's sort of seeing those things it just being a dose of reality as to what happens in the industry not to judge whether good or bad just the reality of it and the outcome then for the client is that they could be better challenged in the squat you could zoom all the way out and go mass what the fuck does that matter and you could say well it doesn't but you know if we wanted to do our jobs well and we wanted to master this craft then things like that do matter um but the reality again like i said last night on the last call of cpt um people who are coming through the PFCA are going to be a minority in the industry. But there's a growing population of them. And so... I encouraged last night's group to reach out to previous groups and members of the gym owners network and connect and do that thing because surrounding themselves with like-minded individuals who speak the same, if not a similar language, hold the same principles and all the rest of it, don't just program a back squat for the sake of programming a back squat. They should, that 10, 15% of the industry should stick together. That was a bit of a tangent, but...

SPEAKER_02 11:02

yeah just hearing you speak on the performative side of things I do think there's a level of showmanship that for a large portion of coaches who are new in the industry, they need to try and embody. Like there's a bit of showmanship in how you deliver stuff, what have you. And then as you progress through your kind of confidence within yourself and your own independence, you realize how much that showmanship was just masking a lack of understanding or detail and connection, all that kind of stuff. But what my mind goes to was, do you remember when we delivered the seminar in Edinburgh and we felt so defeated? it because we were like what the fuck are we teaching because really uh we had i don't know we must have about 45 50 coaches at a seminar and all they wanted to know was like what's the best mobility trick for opening up hamstrings whatever i'm like fuck like how how how low do we have to bring the standard of education and i remember you me and all uh and now i think we had a creative in the room at the time i think she just had to stay along for the Right. But we were trying to challenge what are some of the things that we loved most about our gyms back in the day. And that's how the kind of core values of success for PFCA came out of it, right? It was like the thing that you, me, all loved was anytime you could walk into the gym, seeing movement quality from your clients, whether it was a back squat, a goblet squat, who cares, but the quality was there the kind of championing technique quality movement good intentionality around it like that was the thing and I guess the more we beat that drum home even with our small but growing population the cream rises to the top and I think you know just using this as a reflective point I love the idea that a PFCA coach just holds the room to slightly differently I know for a fact that gym owners in the network genuinely love hiring PFCA educated coaches because the values and how they see the world we get 10 weeks 11 weeks to indoctrinate them on a certain way of thinking it's pretty fucking cool it's not a huge amount of time but it's enough to kind of just challenge the rhetoric and I think that's why and you know just talking to you now it excites me to think that the more a gym owner gets a CV and it says PFCA, it's like, fuck, I want to speak to this guy. That's sick. If we're creating a small amount of people, better opportunities like that, that's fucking awesome.

SPEAKER_00 13:57

The first time you and I sat down and we said, I said, what are we doing here? What's the gig with the PFCA? What's the aim of the game?

UNKNOWN 14:08

And

SPEAKER_00 14:08

And you, humbly at that time, said, let's look at it. And one of the first things that we wrote down was that, that the PFCA coach would stand for something. It would create a level around it. I think we're getting there. I won't say, let me change that. It's getting there. Through our work, but then through the work of others who are willing to trust us and go on that journey with us. I think there's a... I get it because I'm there in the course. I do believe that the majority of people that come to our course have an open-mindedness. I think they're drawn to us... because of, I guess, our openness and our search for the truth as opposed to just delivering the performance. Last night, last call, I asked the question towards the end of the call, can you explain one thing that's changed in you and therefore how you see coaching throughout this last 10, 11 weeks? And not one of the answers out of 60 people, not one of the answers was a nuance or a detail around a specific movement or an energy system or any of the coaching stuff that you would probably see. It was all principle and philosophy. It was all... that it's the client first. It's all that the investigation never ends. It was all that we must continue to pay attention. It was that stuff. And I said to them, I said, if you would have asked me at the start of the course... what things I would like you to take away it would be those things because as we know all the rest of the detail despite the fact that we arm them with to go and be able to write program design and select the right exercises with you know the continuums that we offer and the way of seeing things and all the rest of it that's going to be learned more so and 10 times faster through experience, through fucking it up, right? And so then being armed with the way in which to see the world, this world, is more important for me than the detail around the reps and sets because what tends to happen is a coach takes the detail of the reps and sets but then applies it in the wrong manner and it becomes about the reps and sets, it becomes about the back squat, it becomes about the tempo and they forget that, no, it's about the client. So all those things then are our tools to impact or guide the claim through their process not the other way around so you know to our chart it becomes the how becomes the thing as opposed to the who plus what plus why and that was that was a few of them said last night the who plus what plus why was was super impactful for me what they're saying in that is remembering it's about the client um So seeing that happen out of the back of each CPT course, I think it's really powerful. And that then speaks to why the gym owners in the network, they're so keen to hire a PFCA coach because no matter what their level, they're looking at the world in the right way.

UNKNOWN 17:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:47

Arguably in a better way than what some would you know, do you want your moans are right? And again, that's not blowing our own trumpet That's just that's just was being the messenger and I guess was staying true to The principles and values that we grew up on and that the people who taught us them grew up on and so on and so forth And that's why I always explain the CPT This shit isn't anything new. Well, it sounds new because nobody says it but it's decades old and we just pass it with They're just passing the thing on. And it's almost, when you think of it like that, it's almost daft that some alternative is now current.

SPEAKER_02 18:28

Yeah, there's something... You know, we always used to say the CPT course or any Level 3 course is like the ticket to start your apprenticeship. But I think what we're trying to do is the foundation to which you see the world is broader. It's powerful, right? I think something that I love when delivering CPT or when I used to do it is because of the force group situation that we do and having them all share their kind of values. So it's like, how would you solve this nutritional solution you see like sorry this nutritional opportunity with a client and you see all the different ideologies or religious ideologies on nutrition like oh she needs to go low carb she needs to do this whatever right and then what it does is it forces an appreciation for diversity inclusivity around the person right which is really fucking cool so while you were talking there it was like the CPT course is like the ticket to fuck it and find out do you know what I mean but like the fucking find out you're doing it from a place of like real keen kind of I want to use the word openness, like you're generally open. You're like, I'm going to dose this, I'm going to be open. Who plus why plus, you know, like really getting stuck into it. It's exciting for the coach.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

It is exciting, isn't it? I think it's equal parts exciting and scary for the exact reason that you said before about, you know, we spoke to them last week with Chris, the stages of development. And the first stage being... somewhat a copy right so you're looking to those ahead and you're you're you're you're seeing what they do and you're taking the bits that you would like to embody and and and you're impersonating like you said before it is a bit it is there are performative elements to it of course there are because you don't know yet so you know when when chris and i were speaking last night last week i i asked um is there a bit of sort of fake it till you make it? And there kind of has to be to get the ball rolling. But at least then, like you said... coaches are going into that with eyes wide open as opposed to I'm just going to blindly copy that person that was ahead of me who is successful and I'm going to mirror their every movement to the point where I lose myself in that performance because again the further that goes down the line the less meaning that carries for the person that's actually doing the performance and also the less connection that creates with the person that's in front of them because they know it's not real so it's a hiding to nowhere and so again to your point I think When you say fuck it and find out it's the start of the exploration and it's the start of whilst it's uncertain and whilst it's unclear. And I know by, you know, in our human nature, we are nervous and scared of in the way that we're made up around uncertainty. But it's having faith the more that we do it in that it's willfully stepping into that uncertainty that will enable us to continue to grow. I don't know about that, so I'm going to try something. I'm going to take some action. Holding these principles and thinking, you know, okay, every client's different. Who plus what plus what equals how and all the rest of it. Programming pencil, da-da-da-da-da, all these things. I'm going to have a stab. And again, like we say, as long as you have good rationale and you've considered what you're about to do, whether it's right or wrong, it doesn't matter. It's part of the process. And so then, in an aroundabout way, it can never be truly wrong because it's always going to lead to a better form of understanding, a deeper understanding. And so whilst it might not be exactly right for right now it's going to be a step to something better and I guess there's an analogy in there for life right it's like through the struggle and you know we without going too deep but we rise from the fire and that in a In a smaller way, each step along the way of the coaching process is exactly that. But you're doing it together. And I think what I try and do through CPT is get rid of the pressure that the coach feels in having to have it all figured out and having it all right. Having to have the answers.

UNKNOWN 23:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

Because that can't be the case. Because if we go into it with this fixed idea that we are right and that we do have all the answers, well, then we can't explore because there's nothing to find out. And if we can't explore, then we can't take the client on their process. And if we can't take the client on their process, they'll never learn. And so then we end up just with this... meaningless experience. And hey, what tends to happen in coaching? Just a meaningless experience. What happens then off the back of a meaningless experience? Well, because it doesn't carry any meaning, we search for some, we try and drive in and inject some sort of meaning through outcomes. So then, what do I look like? Right? As an immediate, obvious one. Well, if it changes the way I look, then that's got to be good, right? Well, yeah, maybe. But now we're seeing it as a direct goal as opposed to an outcome of a hundred different behaviours that have now been ingrained that have upgraded the whole shooting match and oh shit I actually look better than I did before cool so yeah

SPEAKER_02 24:10

fucking deep shit that yeah sorry you wanted to reflect on a little bit of me yeah please and you said you said a few things even in that that really you can pull some philosophy into life And I wrote something last night around imitation and suicide. And I think within the industry or with anything in life, you... When you are stepping into the unknown, you're looking to others who embody elements of what you think success is, rightly or wrongly, whether you are on autopilot or not, like whether you consciously are thinking about what about their life inspires you, but do you understand the cost of their life for what it takes to get there, right? Which I think is a key bit that like not many people have that kind of level of thought. And I, for one, have been going through this journey of, just trying to reconnect with my kind of day-to-day and how I want my life to live and all that kind of stuff. And it's been really challenging. And it's so funny. So I spent a few days in Mawzee with my best mate. And my best mate and I, in high school, we were the guys who would, you know, we played first team rugby, whatever, like we were in the gym first. We stayed after practice. We got there before the game. for practice like we were always always those guys anyway i've lived in the uk for 16 17 years so i haven't shared life with him for 18 years and um we went to morzine and he runs a coffee shop in south africa and like in my mind he's a businessman just as i am um But his level of chill is the complete antithesis of what I can even feel comfortable doing. You have no chill. Yeah, well, that's what he said. He was like, we went out with a friend and she was like, how's it been with Jenzo? And he's like, Jenzo has zero chill. And it's so funny because I generally, I get anxious by not doing stuff. And at first I thought, while it's just who I am but through all this therapy stuff that I've been doing one of the things I've realized is which is quite profound which I think loads of people resonate with is I've created an identity of worth through the total amount of work I do each day to the point that it's toxic now like a strength of mine is the ability to spend multiple plates and do things but when you do something too much it becomes toxic toxic overload and Chris Ball talks about it like you know lean into your strengths but not too much Tim Ferriss used it on a podcast recently where he was like your strength is like a double edged blade but without a handle so handle it with care you can't squeeze too tight because you're going to hurt yourself so I've found all these little things like really really cool but one of the most profound things which I've just pulled up here was a friend of mine sent me a podcast about from Dr. John Demartini and in there he talks about values and like how important it is to understand your highest values and oftentimes nowadays the thing around values everyone's it's overused right it's words like honesty integrity like goes on the wall of your office kind of thing but like none of it's like really morals right it's it's it's surely you're not a hypocrite. Surely you don't go around without any integrity. So he goes on to be like, well, really those are moral hypocrisies, and life demonstrates the things that you value most, every decision, reaction, and action. That really is your truest values. And the best thing I heard in that podcast was what you do spontaneously that you cannot wait to express. Through all this exploration for myself, I got to a place where I felt responsible for so many things, for so many people, and I also felt this kind of like, well, that's a weakness of mine, so let me make it stronger. That's a weakness of mine, let me make it stronger, whether it was elements of the job or elements of things I needed to do. So rather than leaning into it going, hey, I could set some boundaries here and not do that, I was like, fuck my boundaries I need to get better there because that's also a weakness and I can be seen as more valuable if I do that and if I help that and if I do that and look how much you need gens really which was largely it and the more I was doing that the more I was the more I was diminishing my own value, right, and putting myself last as always. So through the work I've done and being able to really realize what it is that I genuinely spontaneously and cannot wait to do, it's like, okay, cool, let's do more of that. And through that then goes back to what you were saying. You step into the unknown, and the unknown is scary. And, of course, you can give yourself a little bit of confidence with the work you've done previously to make sure move into the unknown and go, I'll be okay. But it's been quite a journey. And I think when you said about this podcast, you know, let's reflect and see where you are. I was like, I'm still like, I'm still in it. But I think there's something quite powerful about the continual journey, but it doesn't always have to be straight up a ladder. Do you know what I mean? Because that was my fear. It was like... Is this just that, like, am I doing what I said I'd never do, which is, like, just join the rat race? Because I never wanted to do that. Like, I love growth. I love success. I love seeing scores on the doors. I love hitting targets. But what I love most is having a fucking good time doing it. And I'd lost that. Do you know what I mean? I'd absolutely lost that. And this recent family holiday. I literally, this is very woo-woo, because I've felt so dead inside for so long, I generally just want to feel, like feel joy or feel sadness or feel happiness. I just felt heavy all the time. Like I was creating environments just so I could feel it. But I felt, which is great. And I think the craziest thing, what was the point I was trying to get to? The craziest thing was, that with enough with enough kind of perspective going, whose life am I trying to imitate? Like what is success? Who has painted a picture of success for me that I've adopted for it to be what success should look like versus have I thought long and hard through my values what success could be like? And it might be way different to what anyone else thought it was. It might feel a million miles away where I am now. But, like, that's probably the vision. And I talk about this a lot with gym owners. I'm sorry, I'm rambling. No, it's good. I think with gym owners particularly, like... you get to a stage of your business where you need to define the vision for the business, but more so the vision for you and your life and your family. Because if you can then have a vision for your life and your family, that then goes down a level, be like, okay, well, then the vision for the business is to not only create impact, have a great community, love my work, but also allows my family to do this stuff. That's pretty cool. And then everything else falls underneath that, which is, you know, the tip of the spear is you and your family vision. So I think that's where, that's I've got to is like redefining what that vision is and like the child version of Jan's what he thought success looked like when I left South Africa I kind of just been that you know like that with my dreams of becoming a springbok and all the stuff like at some point I just had to be like well that's never going to happen right but then you have this narrative of failure where somewhere deep inside you could I've now which is ironic it's like I've lived in this country for you know 60 17 years so I've almost lived here as long as I lived in South Africa and now it's come back full circle like oh I could define a different vision because ever since I lost like The vision of my life in South Africa, and then you lost the rugby stuff. You almost used to be like, well, I now need new goals. And I've just attached my goals on people that I've looked up to every step of the way. Well, that bit of their life looks cool. I'll take that. That's pretty cool. And I've literally done that, but I haven't gone– Why do I like that? What about that do I like? What about that do I find inspiring? Is that aligned with my truest sense of values? I haven't because you're just like, just climb, climb, climb.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

Do you think? over that time of 16, 17 years being here, having lost your identity right at the very start, do you think that the outcome for you in the imitation and the things that you have embodied have been an attempt for you to fit back in again?

SPEAKER_02 34:13

100%. I think there's, so I read this book, Braving the Wilderness by Brene Brown. And she talks a lot about her never having fitted in and being able to be like brave enough not to whatever like some of the sentiments of the book is really powerful but I resonate with that a lot because I was never someone who was like in in with one particular group I think largely because of like my upbringing and stuff I I've always created a like a weird protective mechanism of like being in like the rugby group and the cricket group and this group at school or whatever and the baseball group but I was never like in in with any of those groups because it almost felt like that way I could protect myself if rejected do you know what I mean but with the same with the same lens I've done the same thing throughout my whole life which is crazy and then you do these other things to try and like fit in enough but also not all the way because of the fear of failure, the fear of rejection or what have you. So, yeah,

SPEAKER_00 35:17

largely. Yeah. See, then you end up, we can connect that all the way back to the back squat at the start, right? You end up being that coach that because you impersonated or, yeah, because you impersonated what you thought was right at the start to get started and then you carried on with that, you end up stuck with it. So now we have to put back squat on the whiteboard and I guess that, you know, in a metaphorical sense that's where you end up where it's like I have to keep showing up like this now because that's what everybody around me expects because I've done it for so long whereas for you it's like I want to shake this off because this isn't actually me and I can feel me wanting to come through some more me knowing you and seeing you I think it's hard People listening who are like Genzo and relate to Genzo in the way that you see the world, I think will get what I'm going to say. Your tendency towards the data, the KPIs, success, that drive towards that stuff, that is... That is gold for the way that the world works, right? So everything that we face today is driving people down that way of thought, down the focus, down the numbers, down the stats, but away from the meaning and away from the feeling and away from the big picture sort of narrative. And so then you being that way inclined anyway, you only need a little nudge and you're way down that rabbit hole of where the world would like you. And I'm not talking conspiracy theory stuff. I just think that's just the way the world's made right now. It wants you to fall in line. It wants you to go after the data and all the rest of it and not really think about it because then you're along with everybody else. You're in the rat race. Whereas actually stopping and going, hang on now, where does this fit? Why am I doing this? What are my priorities? And so on and so forth. That's probably what feels like an outsider's way of looking at the world because the world is so driven to the opposite.

UNKNOWN 37:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:40

So yeah, it's super interesting. But then it's necessary for us to lean back into that other side, probably the more natural side, in order for it to become real. Because otherwise it's just this disconnected data set. And that's what you feel. It's like, what am I really doing here? You've got to reattach it to some meaning. Otherwise you're just toeing the line, as far as I'm concerned.

UNKNOWN 38:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:06

Yeah, it's funny how you pull that back to the back squat, but it's true. It's the CrossFit gym owner who's built an identity on that method of coaching, which is get in mobility for five minutes, skill coaching for 15 minutes, one strength block, and then a quick WOD. And that's the expectation of being able to get out of it. But I think with what you're saying to anyone listening, it's like you have the freedom to express yourself whichever way you want. And that's what you should be doing. And if you can find a way to connect to the members, the ones who want to be coached, that then becomes this reciprocal relationship of real transformation. And I think that's something that I've really hung my hat on through Gemini Network. It's like... It's like to build a gym with your kind of clients aligned with your values because then you look at your gym with a hell of a lot of sense of pride. Like I've been the gym owner where you've gone, what the fuck have I built? And I've also been the gym owner being like, this is fucking sick. Do that because then all of a sudden you can express yourself fully. And that's why like five gyms can all open on the same high street and have five very different demographics should you build your branding on your values rather than the values that are meant to be adopted right so it's like i don't know let's say we're all high rocks gyms it's like wow really are you high rocks gyms or is the elements of things that you you prioritize more than the gym next door because then you could do something really fucking cool

SPEAKER_00 39:41

yep and also it becomes it becomes less of a competitive scenario because we can all see that it's like well yeah you're doing a great job i don't do it quite like that because i don't see this world exactly like you do but that's fine because you can If you can have your 300 people, then I can have mine. And that's just fine. I'm going to attract the people that probably see things a little bit more like I do. But in order to get to that point, I think what you were describing before is the difference between, as we talk about, the transaction and the transformation. The work that you're doing at the moment on yourself is a transformative one, and it's why it's difficult for you to explain right now because you're going through it. But that's the journey really that we're responsible for taking the client on. It's the transformation. Now, we don't have to go down the psych route and all the rest of it and be overly philosophical, but it's just leaving space or creating space for them to be themselves. That's the key thing in order to transform. So rather than shaking hands and over a transaction of a back squat, I've now taught you the back squat. That's far less meaningful than asking the question of, does this person actually need a bat squat? And what's the transformation that they require? So actually, by thinking about what they need as far as how they challenge the squat pattern and giving them the movement that they can do and that needs less cues, they can get stronger and therefore explore more about themselves rather than just struggling through a movement based on the cues that we're giving them and all the rest of it, transaction, transformation. And so we're then just creating an environment for exploration, for their self-exploration, right? And we're encouraging them and guiding them along the way. That's the thing. That's what I'm sure your therapy does for you. It just creates an environment for your own self-exploration. Mm-hmm. you know, like you've

SPEAKER_02 41:42

mentioned. It's all about the nudge, right? I think great coaching is nudging. It's that, as we say, but unfortunately overused, like it's the Sherpa, it's the guide, but I think sometimes that goes over people's heads. So it's just the little nudge, right? So, oh, did you hear what you just said there? You know, like Tom Foxley, mindset coach, he was in my corner a lot from 2017 to 2019 I actually had a long call with him when I was out in Portugal and I'm reminded by his exceptional listening skills like you talk to him and he'll just be like Before you go on to the next thing And be like Oh Do you mind if we just pick up On what you just said there Why did you use the word Have Rather than That And it's like

SPEAKER_01 42:43

Hmm

SPEAKER_02 42:44

That's rather interesting. I didn't realize I said that. And it's like, that's the nudge. That's a coach's nudge. Whereas, you know, I don't think there's a level of attentiveness that gets embodied through coaching for the most part, let alone just human connection.

SPEAKER_00 43:03

Because whilst there's mastery in that that Tom executes, there's also then... confidence in the simplicity for the coach in the value isn't found in a million different things that you're offering a client in a session and you know you're you're overcooking this attempt at value like I've got to say this and I've got to say the other thinking about that point and thinking about our own experience how much do you take away from an hour or half an hour with somebody it's usually just one or two things tops I always think about the comedy show how many things can you remember from a comedy show you've laughed for an hour or two hours you probably remember one or two jokes same in a coaching scenario so then as a coach then can we pay attention to the level where the thing that we do offer them sticks that's the nudge that's the nudge let's call it there good nudge mate cheers bro