All Out in the Open

Is there a place for me in the Church?

• Questions from the Closet • Season 1 • Episode 37

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Ben, Charlie, and McKay Bryson have a raw conversation about what it's like to be a gay member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Ben:

Welcome to Questions from the Closet. I'm Ben Schilaty.

Charlie:

And I'm Charlie Bird. Each episode we discuss a question that we commonly get asked as LGBTQ Latter-day Saints.

Ben:

We're not trying to answer this question or come to a consensus but simply sharing our perspectives. Today's question is, is there a place for me in the church?

Charlie:

Ben and I are not terribly diverse and we share many opinions and life experiences. For example, we both fit into a size large shirt.

Ben:

But like not at the same time.

Charlie:

Oh my gosh.

Ben:

However, there are some pretty big differences.

Charlie:

Oh my gosh, Ben.

Ben:

I think it should be we both wear a size large shirt.

Charlie:

We both wear a size large shirt, okay. Carry on.

Ben:

Okay, however, okay, however, there are some pretty big differences. For example, I usually wear a button down shirt and Charlie usually wears like a T shirt or like a Nike shirt.

Charlie:

Yeah, Ben's always at work, and I'm always at cheer practice.

Ben:

But if I'm not working, I just wear t shirts. Also, one time when I was going to tap class that first time I tried to figure out what to wear. And I was gonna wear a pair of like basketball shorts.

Charlie:

Oh my gosh y'all should have seen that this man was trying to wear to tap class.

Ben:

I'm like what am I supposed wear to to tap class? And you're like leotards. Like I don't have leotards.

Charlie:

Well, not leotard just not like basketball shorts, with like, dressy tap shoes and no socks. It was awful.

Ben:

And you were like, wear my joggers. So I put on your joggers. And they did not fit.

Charlie:

They did not fit at all.

Ben:

Our waists are not the same size.

Charlie:

They were, they were tight.

Ben:

They were way too tight.

Charlie:

Tight pants at the top class.

Ben:

So I wore shorts.

Charlie:

Well, anyway, we'd like to provide a variety of voices and perspectives so today, we're joined by McKay Bryson.

McKay:

Hi, yeah. I'm McKay Bryson. I'm from Bountiful, Utah, that two minutes below the temple. And I currently go to BYU. I'm graduating soon. I'm studying Information Systems.

Ben:

Great. Well, we're here to talk about you know, if we have a place in the church, or what is our place in the church. So we're having this conversation today because yesterday, I finished watching the show Love Victor with my friend Heidi. And Love Victor is about a gay kid in high school, coming to terms with his orientation and, and wondering if he should come out and, and coming out. And it's a it's a beautiful show. Not the best written but it's, it's good. It's lovely. And so afterwards, Heidi asked me what some of my deep thoughts were, it was 11 o'clock. I was like, I have to go. Let's talk about this later. So I got I walked out to my car. And then I was like, no, I want to talk about this now. So I went back in. I rang Heidi's doorbell. She let me back in and I shared some of my thoughts. And, and one of the things I said was that this was a lovely story but this could not happen in the in the Latter-day Saint world, like this kid was trying to figure out if he was gay or not but if you were a Latter-day Saint most likely he would think, okay, if I am this, I need to change this. And he was worried about how his family would react. But if you were a Latter-day Saint you would be you'd be thinking, as am I going to destroy my eternal family by coming out. I thought if this this were a Latter-day Saint it would sort of be a lot heavier and a lot sadder. And she said, so how are things in the Latter-day Saint LGBTQ world and I said, they're bad. Like, it's really bad. And Heidi is a phenomenal friend and a great listener. And she asked me a lot of questions about a dozen times I said, it is bad. It is so bad. And I'm really good at talking about my feelings. But I'm really bad at showing my feelings. And so as Heidi was like doing a really good job of listening I was like on the verge of tears. And so I kept making jokes, so I wouldn't cry. And Heidi said, what can I do? Like, how can I help? And I just said, I don't know. And so for the listeners today, as we talk about this, you know, I don't I really don't know what any of you should do. But I've gotten to this point in my life because the Holy Ghost has helped me know what to do. And I hope the Holy Ghost to help you know what to do as well. I feel like there's a problem. I feel like...

Charlie:

This topic is so emotionally charged. And it's triggering. And as I'm sharing my experiences it like I have to dig into trauma and things that I'm still working through. And it's it's really like it's exhausting sometimes. And I've noticed that as soon as you start sounding angry, or emotional people stop listening to you. And that's really disheartening to me because it's like, I feel like I have to share all of these feelings and and just always be subject to talking about like heavy things that are, that make me angry and make me emotional. But I have to do it in a way that's palatable and that people can digest or else like everything I say gets washed away and nobody listens. And we had a conversation earlier, the three of us actually, that's why we decided to have McKay on as our guest because he was just there. And we were having this conversation that like things are bad. I don't know, sometimes I sugarcoat things. But I like to take a hopeful perspective, because I like people to have hope. But I don't know today. Like I'm sad. And I hope that if any of us sound angry or sad or too emotional, that you can see past it, and realize what's there and that these are conversations that have to be had.

McKay:

It's interesting, you're talking about that movie that you watched Ben and how hard it is for just like in a regular life to come out and navigate that with your family and how it's compounded in the church. And what Charlie's saying is like, as you're coming out, you can't say everything that you want to say. And that's a, I think, a really lonely experience to have questions in your heart and not have anyone to ask them of. That's one of the challenging parts is that you have questions that you just sometimes can't ask. Or if you asked, no one would be able to give you an answer.

Ben:

Right. And you know, as I thought of this, like, like, why do I sometimes center myself? Why do I put on such rose colored glasses when I talk about, like my experiences as an LGBTQ Latter-day Saint. A lot of it is because I know people love the church. And I do too. Like, I love the church. I'm active and faithful, like, I'm as active as you can be. But I know that it's hard for people to know this thing that they love that's so beautiful, can also be really painful. And so I don't want to, like hurt anyone's feelings at the same time. Like, like, like, my heart is so often broken. And I think I put other people's feelings above my own. I want to talk about this a lot.

Charlie:

Well, and like I said, sometimes that's the only way people will listen to you at all.

McKay:

I was reading a book recently came out through the Maxwell Institute. It's by Melissa Inouye. One of the chapters is, she talks about how every member of the church has a piece of truth that they bring to the church, how we're all a member of the body of Christ. Sometimes it feels like the truth that I'm bringing to the church, I really have to fight to bring it, maybe more than other people.

Ben:

McKay what spiritual gifts do you feel you bring to the church?

McKay:

I feel like I especially for being gay, I would say I'm maybe better at listening than other people, and really trying to understand the people around me and what they're hoping for and striving for. And I think that's just a gift in itself, because it helps people know that their voice matters.

Ben:

How about you, Charlie?

Charlie:

I think I bring the gift of joy. I'm happy. And it's like a happiness that I don't know, I think I'm really good at connecting with people. And I think that also stems in a certain way from my orientation, because it's really influenced the way I interact with people, and especially the way I interact with with women. The way I just connect with the females in my life. It just it's so natural to me, and it feels very bright and easy.

McKay:

Oh, Charlie, that's like one of my favorite things about coming out is now I can just walk up to a girl and tell her how beautiful she is.

Charlie:

I know.

Unknown:

So unacceptable if I was straight. Like she'd be so scared, but I don't know the energy is different when I tell girls that now.

Charlie:

Yeah, yeah. Ben, what about you?

Ben:

If I were to like label, like the unique spiritual gift, I feel like I was given, I think I was really given the gift of hope. Like, it's really easy for me to hope in the future. And when things are bad, like in my life, or in the world, in general, I just have a lot of hope. It's just easy for me to know and trust and believe that things are going to be good and better in the future. And that I can play a part in making things better. So I feel like I've got the gift of hope. And I think I think the only negative that is sometimes my hope keeps me from feeling what I'm feeling now.

Charlie:

Yeah.

Ben:

So I just want to share one story that kind of demonstrates how I tell stories differently to kind of make things comfortable. So I was in a new congregation, and my leader gave me the permission to come out as gay. I asked if I could. He said it was fine. And so everyone knew I was gay. Then I was given a calling of some importance. Later, I was talking to this leader. And he told me that afterwards, two people came up to him and said that they were really uncomfortable that a gay person had been, an openly gay person had been called to that position, and that they weren't going to sustain me. And then in a few seconds, but between my name being presented, and then then deciding if they were gonna sustain me that the Spirit worked on their heart. And they felt like they could trust me and sustain me. And so the priesthood leader told me, he told me the story. And so, you know, when I, when I tell a story, I could say, you know, I had this priesthood leader who had my back who was standing up for me, and that's beautiful. And how the Holy Ghost helped these people, you know, see that I was okay, and could be trusted. Like, I think that's can be a beautiful story. But the other part of the story that I might not tell is then when I came to that congregation, I wondered, who are these people who didn't trust me? Those two people were the ones who were bold enough to go and talk about it and complain about it. Who also felt uncomfortable and didn't say anything? And so experiences like that make me feel like, who doesn't trust me because I am gay? Who do I make feel uncomfortable, because I am gay? Who thinks that I can't serve in the church because of my orientation? And that is a hard reality to walk into a chapel with.

Charlie:

You know, one of my biggest hesitations or reservations with with coming out and writing my book was that I didn't want to give people false hope. I'm very aware of the fact that my support system is not like most people's support systems. And like my life experience has just somehow allowed me to be in this place where I can deal with a lot of that with a lot of what Ben was saying. I feel so much happier. Now that I'm out. I'm living more authentically. I feel like I'm not hiding all the time and I'm closer to the closest people in my life. But at the same time, like on like a cultural or like a social scale people are uncomfortable when they're talking to you, and they don't want their kids to associate with you. Or they discredit your testimony. And there's so many things like I could, I could literally just go on and on about all of like the microaggressions that happen, just because I go to church just because I exist. And because I told people a little bit more about my experience. I don't know, like, even now I'm doing it. I don't want to like make it so heavy, but, but I knew all of this would happen. And I was like, I don't like how can I like give people hope and put them in this situation? Maybe they don't have that support system. Right? And, and getting my book approved and going through the writing process was so difficult. And I speak at a lot of things. And I like I guess now I'm on zoom a lot. But like, I'm asked to do trainings, but I'm disinvited a lot of times. And Ben, I know you are too. There are so many times when people ask us to do something and speak and do a training. But then, oh, it turns out like, we're actually uncomfortable with this, and a lot of people were complaining, so we're just gonna cut you.

Ben:

Yeah, that happens honestly, about half the time I get invited.

Charlie:

About half the time. And it's...

Ben:

And it's, and sometimes they'll compromise and be like, okay, we're gonna have a meeting where Ben talks and the people who don't feel comfortable have a different meeting so they don't have to hear Ben. That's happened multiple times to me.

Charlie:

And it's not that I feel like, Oh, no, how dare you cut me? But like, how dare you cut us again? How dare you cut us again? And, and, you know, people say church leaders are like, there's a place for you in the church, I say, where is it? Because if me, who has all of the trappings of like, having an easy place in the church with how I look, and how I act, and my family, if I'm still scraping to find a place in my church, like, where's the place for anybody else?

Ben:

It's hard to know and feel that people are scared of us. Like people are scared of our reality. And that sucks.

Charlie:

And I hate being pitied. Like, I hate when people pity me for who I am. And I also hate when people put me on a pedestal for who I am. Like, I just feel like I can't win. And they don't ask you questions about your actual experiences. They just make assumptions, and then try to give you advice based on things they don't know. And they don't know anything about you. And just try to like superimpose other people's experiences all the time. It's very, very hard to be a gay member of the church.

McKay:

Yeah, as you guys are talking, I'm thinking about how, I wonder if you went up to the individuals in your ward or if I went up to those people that have done things like that to me, if I asked them point blank, if they were scared of me. I think almost every time they would say no. But from where I'm standing, it doesn't feel that way. Like I don't know how to say it otherwise. I don't. I don't want to make a blanket statement and say that all church members are scared me, I think. But everyone has a story of multiple stories of incidences that that's happened. And so to say that it's a few bad individuals in the church is maybe in some ways true. But maybe it's more complicated than that.

Ben:

Yeah, I feel that, I think that's a very good point. Because like, people don't think that they're afraid of us. I was attending an award once and one of the leaders told me not to mention being gay, ever. And so I didn't. That was a really tough place to be. It really was. It was a tough place to be. And, you know, why did he make that request to me? It was tough. It was really tough to know that I couldn't talk about something that was so important to me.

Charlie:

Yeah. Or something that affects so many aspects of your life.

McKay:

Or something that's a fact.

Ben:

Yeah.

Charlie:

And Ben, like, I noticed something you said, and you did you conformed. And you like, went along with his wish, right? You know, I hear this comment a lot from from really well-meaning people. And in a way, it is a compliment, I guess. But they're like, you're so strong. I could never do this. I don't really like to hear that. Because shouldn't everybody be able to do it? Like, if we're not in an environment that is conducive to spiritual success, then that means there's something wrong with the environment that we're in. If other people are like, oh, I could never do that. But people just disregard that. And they say, oh, you're so strong meaning as a compliment. But really, what it does is just say...

Ben:

It's like, if you if you couldn't do this, why are you expecting me to?

Charlie:

Right? Right. I don't know. And people are like, there's a place for gay people in the church. But then they make a comment like that, like, I couldn't do this, which insinuates that there's really not a place. McKay, you were saying that's really complex. There's a lot of factors into this. And I feel like there's cultural factors. There's like leadership factors. And then there's policy factors and doctrinal factors too that make it much more difficult to find your place. I've really, really tried to do a good job at separating church from gospel. Like if you're wondering if there's a place for you with God, like, like, I promise you there is I bear like a solemn, strong, powerful testimony, that if you pray and you ask God if he loves you, and if there's a place for you in His Kingdom, he will respond with the resounding yes. And you will have absolutely no doubt that you are loved. And you are special. And you are whole. And you are needed. And you are unique. It's not a question of do I fit? Where do I fit? It is a question of fit. You are there. You are congruent. You are a child of divinity. And there is nothing wrong or defective about you. And you have every opportunity to succeed within the gospel of Jesus Christ. I believe that so, so strongly. And it just makes me so mad, that the church that's supposed to carry that gospel has created an environment that's killing us. If anywhere there is a 17 year old, crying himself to sleep every night, and wishing he were dead. Like, you guys, this is not okay. We have to do something about this, because LGBTQ people are not feeling that power, that divinity. And that closeness with God. And it's because of the church. It's because of the membership. And it's because of the policies. And it's because of the way that we're scared. And we push people away. And we don't listen to people. And we're uncomfortable so we prioritize the people who make us most comfortable. And we're not willing to look within ourselves and say, how can I help?

Ben:

Thank you, Charlie.

Charlie:

Yeah. Gosh, I'm passionate about this. McKay, I'm kind of gonna put you on the spot as I'm calming down. You said something last night that really resonated with me about the castle.

McKay:

Yeah, what I said was, it feels like people in the church are building me a castle to live in. But they didn't build the doors. When I imagine a castle I imagine it to be grand and beautiful. And so big. And I would feel important when I live there. But I still am wondering, how, how do you actually make that work? How do you how do you walk in the doors? How do you...

Charlie:

Go from room to room?

McKay:

How do you go from room to room? Everyone has my life planned out for me. I feel like God has a plan for each of us. And nobody is listening to the revelation I found for myself. Or, just so many of the LGBTQ people I know are some of the closest most scripture reading, checking all the boxes, people that I know. And to say that they aren't close to God seems silly. It's frustrating to have people constantly doubting my own experience and telling me that I'm not reading the scriptures enough, or that when I bear my testimony that shouldn't believe it is for some reason.

Ben:

That sucks McKay. When I'm feeling like sadness, and pain and like, feeling like I don't belong, I often try and push that away. And it then it comes up in really odd ways. Not odd ways but just like at unexpected times. So we had Carl Hull on like Episode 10, 11, or 12, or something. And his family invited me over to watch conference. And I went in, I was there for the whole day. And it was just really lovely, and really fun. And I thank them so much for having me over as I was leaving. And I don't know quite why Carl felt the need to say this. And he said, as I was leaving, he said, he said, Ben, we don't invite you over because we feel sorry for you. We invite you over because we love you. And we love having you in our family. I walked to my car, I started crying just to like have that affirmation, like, they loved me and cared about me. I was part of their family. And then a couple days later, I was like, I have dinner with the Wrights almost every Sunday in Orem and I've been doing that for years and years. And, and one thing I just like, let's just start crying, I was like, so glad that they, they care about me enough to invite me over. Like those are really like beautiful, meaningful relationships to me. But I have that emotional response because I realized that I feel like the default is that I'm not going to be welcomed in. And, you know, that's because that's that's how people have acted in the ward I'm in right now. My Bishop asked me over a year ago to give a lesson on ministering to LGBTQ Latter-day Saints. And I did and I think it went well. It was wonderful. And then afterwards, one of the Bishopric members came up and, and he's got little kids and he said, Ben, I am so glad that my kids get to grow up in a ward that you are in. And like that's awesome. And people like the Hulls and the Wrights and and this Bishopric member, they make me feel like I belong and like I do have a place. And so like to me like the church in Zion is like this really beautiful, wonderful place where I really fit in and feel like like I belong as I am. But there's also these toxic experiences that just make it hard. Also, like like I'm a receptacle for a lot of people's pain. Like a lot of people talk to me and share, and share what's going on. And just a couple days ago, one of my friends at BYU Idaho was talking to me and and he was saying that, you know he wants to come out but he feels Like if he does that people won't like him, that his relationships will be different. And that could happen like that really could happen. Like, his friendships could be different. And he wasn't sure that he could stay in the church. And he was saying that he thinks when he leaves BYU Idaho, he probably won't stay in the church. And he's like, like you said, McKay, he's one of like, the best people like, so good and so faithful and, and I said, if the church can't keep someone like you, then we are failing, because you are the very best that the restoration has. And it just makes me so sad to just see, like person after person, after person after person feel like they can't go to church even though they want to.

Charlie:

Yeah, I mean, the attrition rate is astronomical. Like, gay people do not stay in the church. I don't want to over generalize, but the men, the membership seems to say, oh, gay people are bad, they're leaving the church. When really like, no one looks to see why no one looks at the factors and, and you're seeing, like we talked about in the stages of coming out episode, you are seeing the breaking point, when people just literally can't do it anymore. And, and there are 12, sometimes 20, sometimes 60 years behind that of pain, and thwarted belonging, and really, really tough stuff that that isn't conducive to emotional health. And then you wonder why people leave. And it's because you're kicking them out.

McKay:

I learned something early on right after I came out about how loneliness is as bad for your health as smoking. Like, if you're lonely for a significant portion of your life, your life will be you know, 10 years shorter. That was really challenging to try to understand. I was wondering if I was like, a literal martyr for the for this church if I chose to stay. And when you're confronted with something like that, and you really do start to wonder, you want to make sure that you're attached to the right thing, and that you're supporting the right cause. One of the first things I learned Charlie, you mentioned how the gospel is different from the church. And that distinction became a lot more clear. Like I, I became more even more sure that I believed in the Gospel. I learned a lot about like church history, and how leadership is structured and things like that, that are on the organization's side of the church. That just like improved my perspectives, I think, and made me understand that the church is God's Church, but there's a layer between God and like the things that the church does. And sometimes things don't go quite right.

Ben:

Definitely. This this kid from BYU Idaho, the main question he asked was, you know, how can I be in a church that is so focused on marriage and family that I'm not going to get married? And like, that is such a legit question that I feel like struggling as a church we're not trying to answer.

Charlie:

Exactly in, like I've heard church leaders say and even publish things that say, like, same sex dating is bad, because it doesn't lead to eternal marriage. So you should just be single. And I'm like, okay, it does me being single lead to eternal marriage? It's so exhausting that like, there's this issue, and people like prescribe solutions to it without even really thinking about what it means. And then the solution like, literally doesn't even answer the issue at all. Like their solution is the same as their problem.

Ben:

And if you if you unpack that a little more, if if same sex dating is bad, because it doesn't lead to eternal marriage, then we should be trying to get eternally married, which means that they want us to marry opposite sex partners as soon as possible.

Charlie:

Exactly which people say that the church isn't like pushing mixed orientation marriages.

Ben:

But it is.

Charlie:

But that is. That's just a roundabout way of pushing mixed orientation marriage.

Ben:

They're pushing mixed orientation marriages until we're fixed, and we're not gay anymore.

Charlie:

When we die, which, which like reinforces this suicide and reinforces suicide, because we're telling kids, you're better off dead. And like, that is the message that's being internalized currently in the church. I want people to think critically about this. Like I really would love if people could take a step back and put themselves by like Ben's book, take a walk in his shoes, and think critically and dynamically and broadly about what this means and what the messages and the prescriptions that we're giving people are actually doing. I've been thinking a lot about intentions versus impact lately. And I feel like we prioritize intentions. But we need to be prioritizing impact, like the impact that's being had by people's good intentions is horrible. It's so bad. And like, I just wish that people would listen and care. I just really wish people would listen and care.

Ben:

Me too. I almost cried in my office today because I, there are people who are like trying to fit in and struggling to fit in, and it doesn't feel like as a church we're make, trying to make a place for them. And one of the stories I love is a story of of the Jaredites and I don't know why Jared asked his brother to pray and didn't just pray himself, but you know the Tower of Babel and Jared asked his brother to pray to God so that their language won't be confounded. So he says this prayer, and then it's granted. And then Jared says, great, that worked. Why don't you go ask God if he will not confound the language of our friends and family, too? And so the brother of Jared goes and prays, and that's granted to them and great. And then Jared says to his brother, he says, why don't you go and pray to God, and ask him if he's going to lead us out of this land. And if he's going to lead us out of this land, maybe he'll lead us to the best land. So the brother of Jared prays and asked them to be led to a promised land. And then God says, I'm going to lead you to a promised land, I'm going to take you to a land that no one has been to before. And as I think about what I feel called to do, and what what we're trying to do is create a world that people haven't been in before. And like we stand on the shoulders of giants, like all these people who have done so many good things for the LGBTQ Latter-day Saints like long before I ever started, who made it possible for me to do this. And you know, and we were trying to create a world that hasn't existed before, where you can be openly gay, and you can participate in church, and be welcomed and loved. I feel like in a lot of ways, like, like, I'm in that world, like, I'm in a world where I'm, like, loved and cared about. But then like these, these difficult things happen. And then I hear about incredibly difficult things happen to people that I care about, I just realize like, we're not there yet. Like, we haven't gotten to the promised land yet. And God is calling us to be there. I feel like we as as children of God and as covenant members of the church, we can expect the very best. Like we can, we can expect God to give us the very best, and that he will lead us to the place that we need to be. And I think what, I think what's keeping us in so many ways is fear, like, like fear of people who are different. Once we can get over that we can go to a promised land, you know, in chapters two and three, the brother of Jared, you know, he's, he's got this problem. And he, he creates these 16 small stones, and then asks, ask God to sanctify them so that they can give light. And you know, I think about all the work that people do to try and make the church good and better and to build Zion. And in the end, like we could, like what we do is just empty stones. But when God reaches out with his finger and touches our works, like that's when they become sanctified. And I felt that happen, like, as I was writing my book, like they were just words, and I felt them sanctified by God. And as I like, like, re-listen to episodes of this podcast, I just like, I feel like some of them are just just holy and sacred. And like, they're just our words, but then God sanctifies them.

McKay:

How does that how does that happen? What, how does God tell you that he sanctified your words?

Ben:

I just like feel this, this confirmation from the Holy Ghost. And those are feelings that are that are that are hard to explain. But I just feel like this is, this is a good thing that we did and God is pleased with it. And I'm not trying to like pat us on the back. Right?

Charlie:

Well, I have a couple examples McKay if I can share, Ben. For starters, there was one chapter of my book that I was asked to write. And I did not want to write it. I did not know how to write it. I felt very conflicted about it. And, and my feelings on the matter weren't even really solidified. And I just thought, I can't do this. And it was kind of like, this needs to be in or, or maybe the book won't go through. And I was like, um, I don't know what to do. And I was in Salt Lake and I was dressed nice, because I had just been in meetings, and I walked across the street and I went through the temple and I did a temple session and going to the temple is really hard for me. I don't usually like to do it. It's I feel awkward when I'm there. But this time, I was like, God, I need an answer. I needed something from this. And it was my favorite temple session ever because I was I was in like this different space. I was almost like in a dreamlike state. And sometimes I hesitate to share spiritual experiences on a podcast because that's weird. But I mean, it's a gospel-related podcast, but but I had a vision of this chapter. I had a vision of it. I don't know how else to say it then like the actual like, literally, the words came to me and I walked outside, and I had my computer with me and I opened it. And I wrote the chapter in 10 minutes, I just wrote everything out. And it was done. And I didn't even really have to go back and edit it. It was just done. A couple months down the road, I was recording my audiobook, and these stories aren't to be like Charlie's book's the best. But like that, this is just what I feel of Ben saying that I feel like God has somehow sanctified whatever my meager offering is. I was reading the audiobook, and I was like, I didn't write this like, like, it was my words. It was my sentence structure. But, but what it conveyed was was not from me at all.

Ben:

I definitely felt that too. And there have been a couple times when we've like, recorded podcasts and like I remember the very first time like the very first three episodes we recorded. We recorded them at the BYU broadcasting studio, which is just across the street and we were just like skipping across the parking lot.

Charlie:

We were on one.

Ben:

We were like, this is the best. Like, this is what we were meant to do. And it's just like, felt like we were doing the right thing.

Charlie:

Yeah.

Ben:

And it wasn't an easy thing to do. And you know, here we're talking about, like us being the heroes. And but like, I felt people like do things that like for me...

Charlie:

Phenomenal.

Ben:

That had been moments that had been like, sanctified and touched by God as well.

Charlie:

Absolutely.

Ben:

And yeah, like I remember when I, what, I don't want to say what was said, but like, after I was ordained to be a high priest, one of the Stake Presidency members like sent me an email, just like this beautiful email just like telling me what he had felt in that moment. And like, that was just like such a gift. And just like, yeah, and so many people have given me so many gifts that have just been so wonderful and kind and like, I could just list person after person after person who, whose works have been sanctified for my good.

Charlie:

But I mean, there's been times when I've been like, literally on the edge, like, I have to leave, I have to get out of here. And someone will drop in and just say something that's so profound. And so moving. And in this church, where there's not a place for me, they carve out a space for me to sit in for a little bit that they squeeze over. And let me be next to them for a while with the hope that someday I'll have my own seat at the table. Right? And I have so many people who've done that for me. And really, that's the only reason that that I can sit anywhere you know. And Ben, you're talking about this, this promised land, this new world that's never been seen before. I believe in that world. And I've seen so many incredible, beautiful glimpses of that world. And it's so weird, it's like almost like this weird, like, catch 22 because we're telling, essentially, in this, in this episode, we're telling LGBTQ youth that there's not a place for them in the church. And then we're like, but there is like, the, it's there. And, and sometimes, I mean, you say, this a lot, Ben, you just want everyone to come out, like I want people to come out. I want allies to scoot over and give people space. And I want people to sit in those spaces. We need strong, valiant LGBTQ members of the church, to speak up and stand up and show out and be part of wards and congregations and stakes. And I see so much opportunity for growth and change and beauty.

McKay:

I love going to church when I feel like I can make a contribution. And I think anyone who is gay has a contribution to make right now like you can, can go to church, and your experience is so relevant and so important.

Ben:

Matthew Wickman gave a devotional at BYU. And he gave this really beautiful story about the laborers in the vineyard like that parable, and how it doesn't matter how long we work, it just matters that we do the work. I missed church zero times in my 20s, like I went every single Sunday. And if and if someone hasn't been and they want to contribute, like, of course you can, like, of course you can contribute. It doesn't matter how long you've been away, like, like, we're gonna get the same. God gives us a lot of opportunities to build Zion. And what I, what I tell these youth, you know, these hypothetical youth who are wondering if they have a place in the church, you know, who wonder if they belong, you know, I really do feel like I belong. I do feel like there's a place for me in the church because the people that care about me have made have made that so and then the people who don't care about me or don't know me, have made it hard. And I just think if they knew me, if they took the time to get to know me, they would, they would love me and I would love them. And we would make space for each other. And and these, these youth who are wondering if they have a place I I always tell them, you know, if you want to come to church, there's always room for you on the pew next to me. You can always come sit with me. And there will be space with me.

Charlie:

A lot of times people start to care when it hits home when they have a close family member or friend come out. And and that's so wonderful. And I love that but in a sense by that time it's a little bit too late, you know? And and I would love to see proactive church members who don't wait until their son comes out as as gay to start educating themselves about about how to react and about how to treat people like, like, do it now and share it with your friends now. And if we could just make like even just like basic cultural changes, the the effect that it could have in the impact is so great.

Ben:

I guess the last thing I just want to say is, I love the church. Like I love the restored gospel. Like I love reading the scriptures at home. And I love praying. And I love ministering to people. And I love attending church. I love singing the hymns. I love going to the temple. Like I, like I love all of that. And I really do. Like it is so good for me. At the same time, things are still so bad. You know, I don't know what anyone else should do. But, you know, for the listener, I just want to ask you, you know what, if you felt prompted to do, whatever you feel prompted to do do that thing.

Charlie:

Please do it. Yeah. I'm gonna break the fourth wall a little bit here and just like I'm so grateful to people who listen to this podcast and the people who share it. I do most of the editing and I keep, I'm slightly obsessed with looking up the statistics of each episode.

Ben:

You do all the editing.

Charlie:

I do all the editing I'm trying to. I'm trying to carry on here. But but but I look at like the numbers and I can see when people share it and how many hits each episode gets and I'm just so grateful to people who listen and I don't know. I feel like oddly somber yet hopeful yet grateful and like an outpouring of love and sadness at the same time right now. And, and most of the hope and graciousness is coming from, from people who are willing to listen and it's really an incredible thing to step out of your comfort zone and try to learn about someone else.

Ben:

I think love and sadness, I think that describes a lot of my experience. Can I share one more story that I'm not sure will fit in?

Charlie:

Yeah, of course.

Ben:

Back in March, there was this, I had this incredibly tough day at work. It was just like, overwhelming, and I was exhausted.

Charlie:

I wonder what day that was.

Ben:

It was, it was a very hard day. And I was at work way after I was like, way after five and I was just exhausted. And when I got home, I messaged my friends. I was like, I just got to go to the temple, like. I just need to go to the temple. I was worn out just exhausted, just I didn't have anything else to give. While I was in the temple, I just like, it was like my shoulders squared. And my energy was renewed. And I just like walked out, just knowing that I could face the world. I just like felt rejuvenated there. And then I came back to my house and one of the, one of my friends like, like, played the piano and we were singing songs. We had like this really fun, beautiful night. And I thought, why am I having such a good night tonight? And I felt the spirit say, because you need to be strong for everyone else tomorrow. And I feel like I need to be strong for so many other people. And I'm happy to do that. And God gives me the strength. But I don't need to do 10 things. 10 people need to do one thing. Yeah, cuz sometimes it's just exhausting.

Charlie:

Yeah. And Ben like, I'm going to be strong with you. And McKay is too. And my sisters are going to be strong with us. And your parents Ben. And our friends and our roommates like there are people, there is strength here. And there is strength in numbers. And I think right now we just need more numbers. We need help. That was a beautiful story. Thank you for sharing.

Ben:

Of course.

Charlie:

Well, this may arguably be our most weird podcast.

Ben:

We promise the next one will be more lighthearted and

Charlie:

We'll work on it. Again, thank you for listening. have more jokes. And McKay thanks, thanks for agreeing to do this. And it stemmed from a conversation and I don't know I feel love and sadness right now. But I also feel empowered. And and I'm, I'm excited for the future. And I'm excited for you McKay because you're the best of us. And I think the world of you. So thanks.

McKay:

Thanks for having me on.

Charlie:

Thank you for joining us today. If you have enjoyed this or other episodes, please consider leaving a review. And as always, please remember that we do not represent the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or Brigham Young University. We are not trying to be prescriptive or tell anyone what to think or what to do.

Ben:

You've heard three perspectives and there are many, many more. We encourage you to listen to other voices and hear a wide variety of experiences. If you'd like to submit a question or share a comment about today's episode, you can email us at questionsfromthecloset@gmail.com. Until next time.