All Out in the Open

How can I change? (It's not what you think!)

• Questions from the Closet • Season 1 • Episode 55

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Corrine Chidester-Priest tells Charlie and Ben how she went from a self-proclaimed "homophobe" to a strong, visible ally. 

Ben:

Welcome to questions from the closet. I'm Ben Schilaty.

Charlie:

And I'm Charlie Bird. Each episode we discuss a question that we commonly get asked as LGBTQ+ Latter-day Saints.

Ben:

We're not trying to answer this question or come to a consensus but simply sharing our perspectives. Today's question is, how can I change (It's not what you think)?

Charlie:

Ben and I are not terribly diverse, and we share many opinions and life experiences. For example, we both dedicated our books to amazing men.

Ben:

However, there are some pretty big differences. For example, I dedicated mine to my friends Mitch and Craig and Charlie dedicated his to himself.

Charlie:

Yes, it's true. It's not what you think, though. I dedicated to my former self, like 14 year old sad scared me who thought there was no future. That's who I dedicated to.

Ben:

So why did you dedicate to dedicate your sad self and not to your mom?

Charlie:

Because my mom didn't know what was going on. And my sad self did.

Ben:

Yeah, I think it's actually kind of sweet that you did that.

Charlie:

It felt nice. And I was just like, I want to go back in time and like, give that like, struggling boy, like, throw him a bone.

Ben:

And I when I thought about who should I dedicate my book to, I just really felt like, it felt like the right thing to dedicate to Mitch and Craig cuz they're the first people that I came out to.

Charlie:

Yeah.

Ben:

And my book was really written for straight people. Like I wanted to understand like the sacredness that happens when someone comes out for the first time.

Charlie:

Yeah, that's also true, because because I kind of like focus mine on the like a 14 year old who was scared and like, didn't know if he should come out or not. He or She.

Ben:

Yeah. Because people are like, should I read your book or Charlie's book? I'm like, Charlie's book is for the gay as much for the straight.

Charlie:

It's true. We like to provide a variety of voices and perspectives, and today, we're joined by Corinne Chidester-Priest.

Corrine:

Hi.

Ben:

Well, tell us a little bit about yourself, Corinne.

Corrine:

Sure. So I haven't ever had a book dedicated to me. And....

Ben:

Maybe Charlie's next.

Corrine:

Maybe. Here's hoping. I work at BYU. I am an interior designer there for the campus.

Charlie:

And she's really good.

Ben:

Very good.

Charlie:

I've seen her work.

Corrine:

I paid them to say them to say that. Um, let's see, I live here in Utah. I've been here the last five years but I grew up in Houston. And I love to garden. I'm recently getting in touch with my old lady self. So gardening is up there for me.

Charlie:

Are you good at keeping plants alive?

Corrine:

Yeah, it's surprisingly and I I think some of it has to do with my OCD leanings and my need for control. And but also it's like nature is the one spot where I feel like you can make mistakes and it there's no rules. So...

Charlie:

I need you to come over because I have this thing that I keep buying plants.

Corrine:

Yeah.

Charlie:

I can't stop. Yeah, but then I don't have time to take care of them. I don't know which one to water. And yeah, yeah, it's kind of tough.

Corrine:

Yeah, it can be a struggle for sure. I mean, I it's a full time job. Like every Saturday is watering day at my house. And I fill my bathtub with all of my plants. And I mean, it's a big ritual, but...

Ben:

Wow,.

Corrine:

I love it.

Ben:

All right. Well, Corinne how like, where do you fall in the LGBTQ+ spectrum?

Corrine:

I would say that I'm straight. But I would love to be a part of the community if I could. Is that okay?

Charlie:

She's an aspiring gay!

Ben:

Note to listeners. We're not recruiting.

Corrine:

No, definitely not. No, I'm I'm heterosexual, very happily married to the love of my life. But I love the LGBTQ community.

Ben:

We love you too. As a representative of the community to you. We love you.

Corrine:

Thank you.

Ben:

So Corrine, tell people how you and I met.

Corrine:

Okay, um, like the real story?

Ben:

Yeah, of course the real story.

Corrine:

Okay, so, um, Ben and I actually met in Tucson, we were part of the same singles ward.

Ben:

So it was my I just turned 31. It was my last day in the ward was your first day in the ward.

Corrine:

Correct Yeah. And I had just gone through a really terrible breakup. I was nursing a broken heart. And...

Charlie:

Were you on the rebound?

Corrine:

No, but like so many women before me. I was seduced by the silverfox. And I... I...

Ben:

She's talking about me, not President Uchtdorf.

Corrine:

Yeah, thank you. Thank you for the clarification. Um, I blatantly made a move on Ben, in front of a group of people who all knew that Ben was gay, except me. And he very kindly rebuffed me and then walked away and said to his friend, "She has no idea I'm gay." Which was true.

Ben:

I was polite. I didn't I wasn't like, how dare you?

Corrine:

No, no, that's what I mean. I said, you gently rebuffed me and so and then from that was born a beautiful friendship.

Ben:

I just remember it was like one of those munch and mingle days, and we were like, sitting in a circle. And there were like, nine women and me.

Corrine:

Yeah.

Ben:

And you...

Corrine:

I am like such an idiot. I know.

Ben:

You're like, hey there.

Corrine:

Totally. Yeah.

Ben:

But we, I did say, "She has no idea I'm gay," as we walked away.

Corrine:

I didn't. Yeah.

Charlie:

I love when girls hit on me. It's fun.

Corrine:

Yeah. I think it's a great compliment

Ben:

I mean Corinne hit on me. It was quite a compliment.

Corrine:

Thank you. Stop some more.

Charlie:

I feel like every time we we have a female guest on, we're just like, "Oh my gosh. She's so pretty. We love you and you're so talented and we want want to be with girls!"

Corrine:

That's the real reason I wanted to come on this podcast is just to be showered in compliments.

Charlie:

Showered in validation.

Corrine:

Yes.

Charlie:

So Corinne, today's topic and you actually chose the question is how do I change in parentheses--what were the parentheses?

Ben:

It's not what you think.

Charlie:

So like, what, what does that mean? Why are you here?

Corrine:

Cliffhanger! Well, I got here kind of in a roundabout way, Ben and I were talking a couple weeks ago. And I was sharing with him just some of the struggles and the ambiguities that allies face, especially allies that want to still be a part of the LDS community. I identify really strongly with my faith and consider like my mission, and all those types of things, a huge part of my identity. But I also strongly identify with my ally-ship, and it's really hard to find a space for those two, in this community. And so we were talking about that, and I expressed my concerns about sometimes feeling like my passion and my devotion to being an ally borders on like gay appropriation. And I worry about that, because I don't ever want to seem like I'm encroaching on something that I can never own. And so we we just it kind of opened the door to how I got to this place. Because when I started this journey, it was from a place of homophobia and ignorance and indoctrinated rhetoric of, you know, "Love the sinner, Hate the sin," being gay is a sin, and you can't have anything to do with it. If you really care about that person, you would draw a boundary for them. And that's really where I came from when Ben and I first met, and in the last six years that we've known each other, it's just been a huge metamorphosis in my life, and the best part of my life, I would say, has been becoming an ally, and it's brought the most beauty to my life.

Ben:

So what happened? How did you? How did you change?

Charlie:

That's really beautiful.

Corrine:

Thank you.

Charlie:

And also, thank you for like being like, for navigating through the complexities of this and like, it's this idea of like, how do I completely support and hold someone from the outside?

Corrine:

Exactly.

Charlie:

Right. Because this is something like it's an identity trait that can't be changed. It's not something you grow into or become it just, it just is.

Corrine:

Right. Right. And I, I mean, my deepest desire is like, I want all the gays to come to me like I want I tell Ben every time it comes to my house, bring me all the gays I want them to just know that this is a safe place forever and ever, that I will always choose them, I will always have their back. But it's really hard to not border on insincerity with that when you're from the outside looking in, right. And so...

Ben:

When you say that you're not saying like, I want to collect a bunch of gay people, but but like, you just like want your home to be a place of like, like love and acceptance so that everyone who goes there knows that they're loved.

Corrine:

Truly, yeah. And I mean, even like my office on campus, I just want to be a haven for anyone who needs it. And I guess I should say, it really isn't just gay people. I want to be a haven for everyone that I come in contact with. But I feel a true affinity to the LGBTQ community because of the experiences that I've had. And, you know, I, my husband, and I talk all the time that like, if we choose to have children, we hope that they're gay, not because of the struggles that that will bring into their lives, but because we feel that we could love them so deeply and completely, and why not have that child come to us? If we could do that for them? Maybe that sounds too self aggrandizing.

Charlie:

But well, well, the thing is, I think I'd be annoyed by it. If you weren't, like you practice what you preach. Like I've known you for a long time, and you are an incredible ally, and you help so many people and you like at a very conservative religious school, you have like a pretty large safe space: "I'm an ally," sticker. And I know people who have come to you specifically like seeking help when they didn't know anybody else.

Corrine:

Yeah.

Charlie:

So like you're doing a great job.

Corrine:

Well, thank you.

Charlie:

So how did you go from like, homophobic hit on Ben?

Ben:

And you don't have to be homophobic to hit on me.

Charlie:

Like, it sounds like you've had a lot of paradigm shifts and experiences that have really changed you.

Corrine:

Yeah. I mean, it's kind of embarrassing to talk about, like what a biggot I was back then. But um, I think the simple answer to that question. I mean, like you said, it's been a huge journey. There's been a true wrestle within my soul of everything that I thought I knew, versus what I actually know now. But it all started with like proximity and putting myself in proximity to things that made me uncomfortable. The biggest thing for me was ally night when we started doing that in Tucson, a lot of people that I loved and respected went and invited me to come and I was so uncomfortable with the invitation. I was like, I don't want to go and hear Ben talk about how he's gay, like, great, he's gay, but nobody needs to hear about it. Like that was my attitude. Very harsh.

Ben:

It was really unavoidable because we had so many ally nights. We just like invited everyone and since there--yeah, so like, all the single adults got invited to these at some point.

Corrine:

Right, right. I mean, it just turned into this huge like community of friends coming together. But I decided to go with some friends. And I think that was the real impetus that started this kind of change in my soul where I just got to see Ben's heart. And really, like all the judgments were stripped away of what I thought I knew about him and what I perceived in my limited interactions with him up to that point. And I think what really happened was like, my heart started to heal and change. And that allowed me to turn into kind of the safe place that I'm still trying to become. But I'm way different from who I was six years ago when I started this.

Ben:

Yeah, so at these ally nights, we would have two LGBTQ members share their stories, and then we would let people just ask us questions openly. Well, what was it about that experience that healed your heart, you said?

Corrine:

Um, I think it was a combination of a lot of things-seeing, like I said, seeing you as a person instead of a thing that I'd been taught to fear, there was a true fear of like, Oh, I'm going to like lose my testimony. If I start introducing these things, these elements into my life.

Charlie:

Like a slippery slope.

Corrine:

Totally. Yeah, like, okay, it's this today--and tomorrow, it's "I'm leaving the church." Like, you know, all that kind of stuff. And...

Ben:

That's not what happens. People meet me, then they're out...

Corrine:

Right. Yeah. So I mean, and I, in all sincerity, I think, my true conversion and my testimony, like truly came to life with becoming an ally> I don't think I've ever felt closer to Heavenly Father or the spirit or ever more connected to my divine identity, than when I've become like, associated with this community and the people that I love in it. And so that was a big part of it was just seeing the humanity behind a label that I'd been taught to fear and to shun and shame.

Ben:

And like, I didn't know that you as you described yourself, like, were a homophobic bigot. I didn't, I wouldn't have called you that. Because I didn't pick up on that. But you know, I think your transformation what was pretty quick, because you hosted an ally night at your apartment, and I remember you, you hung out with us all the time. You were just yeah, normal....

Corrine:

I'm pretty like "all in" person. And I'm extremely passionate and loyal, and, you know, fierce. And so once I like commit to an idea or a course of action, I'm really all in. And so yeah, I I started feeling these pieces come together for me. And I just spent a ton of time on my knees like trying to reconcile those elements. But in the meantime, I was just like, I'm doing this, like I'm giving it my whole heart.

Charlie:

So I've met a lot of allies who feel guilty for how hard it is for them to maintain church membership, faith, testimony. And the guilt usually is like, like, how dare I be sad about this? How dare I be upset when you like, like talking to me or another gay person, like, like, it's actually you.

Corrine:

And that comes back to that like appropriation...

Charlie:

Right

Corrine:

Fear.

Charlie:

Right. And to me, honestly, I'm kind of honored by that. Like, because it's may or may not be harder for me, it doesn't bother me that it's harder for you. You know what I mean? And I'm wondering how you've kind of like dealt with that?

Corrine:

My guilt or my fears come from a different perspective, where I'm like, I don't ever want my gay friends to feel like, I think it's trendy to support them that I think that, that I'm a part of this cause because it makes me feel good about myself or it's popular or on the fringe. And that's kind of cool. Like, that's where my guilt comes from is is, you know, are my motivations, or my actions being perceived with the intent that they're being given? I do feel sadness about where the church is, I feel a lot of disappointment, like you said, but I've never once thought to myself, like, I shouldn't feel this way because it's not mine to feel sad about because I feel like these are my brothers and sisters. So even though I'm not gay, like it's hurting me to see them hurt. And like I said, I'm super loyal and fierce. And I, I would do anything to change the pain for them.

Ben:

It sounds like we were talking about a little bit is the difference between sympathy and empathy, right?

Corrine:

Yeah, to be honest, I'm, I'm still like muddling through it right? Like, I'm not entirely sure exactly what all the complexities are that I feel. I just know that in my heart, I worry. The thing that keeps me up the most is, does the LGBTQ community feel like I'm trying to insert myself into something that I don't belong in?

Ben:

Like, when have you felt like you were doing that?

Corrine:

I'm just like, whenever I post things.

Charlie:

Whenever you started collecting the gays?

Corrine:

Yeah, really. That's when like...

Ben:

I've got a Ben and a Charlie.

Corrine:

My collection of Russian gay dolls. No.

Ben:

And my ex-boyfriends.

Corrine:

Gosh, it's so true.

Charlie:

How many gay guys have you dated?

Corrine:

A lot. I, I mean, I've literally enter--even entertained with one of them a....

Charlie:

A mixed orientation marriage?

Corrine:

A mixed-orientation marriage.

Charlie:

Really?

Corrine:

Yeah. And I was like, so about it. I was like, Yeah, let's do it. So I'm just like, it just doesn't. I mean, yeah, it's kind of crazy. I guess. Now that I'm saying that. I'm like, wow, I really did do an about face. I went from like this bigot homophobic to like, totally. I'll be your...

Ben:

Let's get married.

Corrine:

Yeah, yeah.

Ben:

Remember that guy you were dating you--want to tell that story?

Corrine:

Which one?

Ben:

Pornography one?

Corrine:

Oh, my gosh. It's just It's so embarrassing how stupid I was, I guess. So I dated this guy. And he, like told me that he looked at gay porn, like all the time, but that he wasn't gay. And I was like, Oh, okay.

Ben:

You told me this. I was like, He's gay.

Corrine:

He's like, Okay, first of all, your boyfriend is gay, Corinne. And I was like, What?

Charlie:

He says he's not.

Corrine:

So dumb.

Ben:

And he's very happy with his boyfriend currently.

Corrine:

Yeah, well, good. I'm happy for him.

Charlie:

Also, like pro tip for any listeners who are looking at gay porn. I don't want to freak you out. Like, you're gay.

Corrine:

And that's okay.

Charlie:

We don't want to put a label on anybody.

Ben:

Go on your own journey. Don't listen to Charlie.

Charlie:

Okay. We got sidetracked. What did--you asked a really good question, Ben. Oh, like, like, when have you felt like you were doing that?

Corrine:

Yeah, I feel like any time I raise my voice in awareness, I'm afraid of that I'm afraid of--and maybe some of it comes from like being a woman. Because as a woman in the workforce, you have to walk this really fine line of like, don't be too loud, be likable. But don't be a pushover,

Charlie:

I think there needs to be combination of both. Because I mean, with any ally ship, there is totally a space for

Corrine:

Yeah, that's a good point. visible love and support. And actually, I think within our LDS community, we need more visible love and support. I would love to see more people posting, I would love to see more people getting involved. Because on the one hand, like, it shows other people who maybe are like how you used to be, and honestly how I used to be that like, this is an issue and these are real eople, right. And then I also ike, gives this element of upport that usually goes unseen. Within the past three years--and I think a lot of this just probably is borne out of social media, like how the ease of being able to post something without really like doing anything, and it kind of does feel like a performance. But I think that's really powerful. And I've seen more and more like support on social media and in social circles that I wasn't seeing three, four or five years ago. And I think that's really helpful. It shows that like, this underground network of support isn't so underground, after all.

Charlie:

But then at the same time, there's also--and in order to be like a true ally, you have to be willing to engage with some of the complexities of this and work--like you said, you worked for proximity, and like education, exposure, like actively put yourself in positions where you can learn from other people and see their hearts and try to understand them. And then look at your position of privilege, whatever it may be, and say how can I use where I am to support and lift another person right? And I think if you're in that mindset, then performative ally ship isn't really such a risk anymore, because because that is that isn't performative, that is like active ally ship.

Ben:

Because of what I've seen with you, Corinne, is like you're not virtue signaling and you're saying like, look how great I am because I feel x, y & z, but it comes from what I'm seeing is like a place of sincere love and compassion.

Corrine:

Well, that's my hope. And maybe that's why it's such a concern for me is because I want to constantly be checking and making sure that it stays that way.

Ben:

And I think that's really healthy as long as that's likely due to inaction.

Corrine:

Right.

Ben:

But to make sure, like, you know, because you've been, like, you know...

Corrine:

Or like paralysis.

Ben:

Right. Cuz you can like, post something on Facebook, but if you don't care about the people in your life, then you know, what, like, like, what is a like, what is posting a rainbow do?

Corrine:

Right. Or even like Charlie said, just post something, but then do nothing like? Yeah, and I think we've seen a lot of that in the last year in our country of like, you either care about these issues, or you say you care about them. But if you really care, you go, you get up and you go to work.

Charlie:

And I think that's kind of another gauge you can use of like whether or not you're, you're doing it for attention or for status versus helping people. There's been so many people who have reached out to me or helped me and never sought any sort of praise for it. And it almost reminds me of that scripture, Ben you can tell me where it is, where it's like, let thy right hand not know what the left hand doeth.It's in the Sermon on the Mount right?

Ben:

I think so.

Charlie:

Yeah. So Matthew 5-ish. But I think that's really beautiful like to serve for the sake of serving and to love for the sake of loving and to advocate out of like, a true genuine desire for equality. And I don't know, I like that idea. I think even like acts of service in my life, some of my favorite most meaningful ones, and the ones that have changed me the most were the ones that I've never told anybody about. Right? And I think there's so many ways to serve in a space like this.

Corrine:

Yeah, I totally agree with you.

Ben:

This kinda reminds me--so I often call myself a gay Mary Poppins. And what I mean by that is like, people come to me in crisis. And then I like, help them a little bit than they like...

Corrine:

And then you fly away.

Ben:

No, no, then they run off without saying thank you or goodbye. And and you know, at the end of both Mary Poppins movies, she's, she's like a little bit sad but was like so proud that people are in a better place, and she didn't do it for the Thank you. And I don't feel like you're doing things to be noticed or to be thanked.

Corrine:

Yeah. Well, thank you. I mean, I don't want to agree with that and sound arrogant. I yeah, I think that's a good point. You know, when we, when we were talking like, okay, what's the takeaway we would want from this episode? Like, my takeaway would be any person who has felt as I once did, like, you can change. And if you change, the best parts of your life, the best parts of your faith are around the corner, if you just are willing to open your heart to that. I, I spent so much time worrying about "Oh, am I condoning if I do this? Am I condoning if I do that?" And like it doesn't matter. And I was recently asked, "Well, how do you navigate that? Like, how do you make sure that you're never condoning?" And I just said, "I don't worry about it anymore." Because I don't need to, like all I need to do is love and be where I can love people, and everything else gets taken care of. But that stress and that worry and that fear that has been indoctrinated into so many of us like you can put that on the shelf, and and your faith will still be intact, even though it feels like you're taking this big sword to your testimony.

Charlie:

And almost sounds like when we're when we're in that mindset we're trying to take on, like God's role.

Corrine:

100%

Charlie:

Like that is not our role and never has been. Our commandment is to love and to build. And so I think, and I think the reason why it's so damaging is because like we're mortal humans, we can't take on God's role, like we are not--we are not the great balancers of justice and mercy. We're not, like that is Christ's role. And he earned that role through an all encompassing, powerful sacrifice. Like it almost seems silly to worry about, like, "Am I condoning this person's actions?" and try to take on a role that literally only the Savior can do. Does that...?

Corrine:

No, that's 100%. And as soon as I let go of that I was so free, and like, nothing can harm my testimony as soon as I let go of that. But when I was clutching, so tight to "Okay, love the sinner, hate the sin, don't condone it," if I truly love this person, I'm going to have a stand. And I'm going to tell them like they can't have X, Y or Z around me because it, you know, drives the spirit away from me, like--as soon as I let go of all of that, like I was free, and my heart grew, the space in my heart grew for others, and I've just been so much happier. And and I think it's because I finally was like, Jesus take the wheel like this is yours. My only job is to love.

Ben:

And it's hard to let go of control like that.

Corrine:

Yeah, yeah, it can be.

Charlie:

Yeah.

Ben:

I remember, you know, during those ally nights back in Tucson, we would talk about tough things like, you know, we weren't saying like, ally ship is an easy thing.

Corrine:

No. It's hard.

Ben:

And I remember you saying once that you'd like to talk to your your family back home, and they were concerned about you.

Corrine:

Yeah, deepest loving intentions. But yeah, they were like, I'm really concerned about what I see you posting, like, do you actually feel that way? And where that kind of ended--and it's, you know, kind of, I guess my invitation on this podcas--is ask yourself, if what you're feeling is really a diminishment of the spirit in your life or being uncomfortable with something that's unfamiliar. Because I think a lot of it is really, we're just uncomfortable with something that we don't understand or know. And so, yeah, I do get questions like that--I worry a lot about my current role in the church and how my being an ally will impact that. I worry that parents--I'm the young woman's president--I'm worried that parents are going to come in and demand that I get fired. And, you know, like, it's it's always in the back of my mind that someone's going to be really unhappy with the words that I say, and I just recently got my temple recommend renewed and I was like, ahhhh! Would they even give it to me if they knew that I like post for the podcast and that I do--you know, and that that is hard. It's hard to find your tribe as an ally within the church.

Ben:

And I think you said some of it's really important, like, like, it's not our job to make you feel comfortable as an ally.

Corrine:

Right.

Ben:

And, and it sounds like you've stepped into a lot of uncomfortable spaces.

Corrine:

Yeah.

Charlie:

But you know whatthat sounds like to me though? It like it's reminding me of the baptismal covenants in Mosiah to bear one another's burdens.

Ben:

Charlie, why are you the one quoting all the scriptures this time?

Charlie:

Yeah, so so like, the burden of being LGBTQ in the church is colossal. It's massive. And that's something I think about everyday like, are people gonna trust me? Are people gonna think that I'm trying to like change their kids? Or like, like, all of those things have been going on in my mind forever and Ben's too, I assume. And you, by being an ally, have kind of stepped into this space to share some of that burden and feel what that's like.

Corrine:

Yeah.

Charlie:

And I wonder if you feel like, you're not...

Corrine:

I feel unworthy to step into that space.

Charlie:

Yes, yes. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, feel unworthy to step into this space because it's not your space.

Corrine:

100% Right. Right.

Charlie:

I finally understand what you've been saying this whole time.

Corrine:

Yeah, this whole time Charlie's had like this super confused look on his face.

Charlie:

I'm like girl, you re killing

Corrine:

Yeah, no, that that's it. I feel unworthy. Like, I want to share the burden. I want to dress the wounds, but I feel so unworthy to come in and do anything because it's just, it's so--I hate saying the word beautiful--but like, there is a beauty and a sacredness to like what that struggle represents. And I don't, I don't deserve it. Do you know what I'm saying?

Ben:

I remember, in July last year, Charlie and I were getting kind of overwhelmed with all the other podcasts that we had to do. And we're like, we need help. We're like Corinne will help. And so I, I think we either texted or called you right away. And you were like, were immediately ready to do like, whatever we need you to do.

Corrine:

It's true. I've been trying to be your publicist for some time now.

Ben:

And I think that's like, that's like a quintessential ally, like not "Okay, what can I do for me to like, look good?" Or but what will like, "What does the community want me to do? Like to help them?"

Corrine:

Right. Yeah.

Ben:

And so and when we when we asked you were there And you still are.

Charlie:

Am I allowed to like invite people into this space?

Ben:

Yes.

Charlie:

Like I would I love when people want to share this burden. Because I feel like it lifts everyone it makes the weight easier. And I mean, what Ben is saying is just an example of, is an example of a like, almost like a chore that you helped take on for us like, like a chore that we have, because we're trying to do LGBTQ advocacy work within the space, you took that. And that made our lives easier. But at the same time, like it goes beyond that, and it's like shared feelings, shared experiences, and, and like a validation of--Ben what am I trying to say?

Ben:

I don't know.

Charlie:

You always know what I'm trying to say. Like, you're stepping into that space, even if you weren't posting on our social media and helping us out for the podcast, like you, validating our experiences, and sharing that with us and taking your time and efforts, even though you have no connection to them. Being willing to come into this space, helps us feel more human. And I wish more people would do that. Like that's like that's ally ship. And that's what we need, especially here, especially within the church of Jesus Christ. Like those are ministers. We need people to minister and bear that burden.

Ben:

And you know, people listen to the podcast, I don't want them to think like, "How can we help Questions in the Closet?" Like the right thing is like, how do I help the people in my life? Right? Because you you weren't like, how can I help the podcast? Like, how can I help my good friends, Ben and Charlie?

Charlie:

Yeah, but also, if you want to help the podcast, like, please share.

Corrine:

Like and subscribe.

Ben:

Yeah, like and subscribe.

Charlie:

Share with everyone.

Corrine:

Yeah, no, I Yeah, I agree with that. Totally. And I, I mean, it became even more real to me as people that I'm very close to and love with my whole heart have come out to me. And like, I just want I guarantee that every single person listening to this podcast, knows someone, even if they don't know, that needs their ally ship. And so just turning and like digging your hands in right where you are, and like cultivating your area of the vineyard, and making it like grow and flourish and be beautiful for all members for everyone, not just members for everyone, right? That's what needs to happen. And when I think about Tucson, that is truly like one of the most amazing happy times of my life. And as I was thinking about it this morning, I was like, it's because we had Zion there. Like we had Zion, because we just loved every single person. Everyone who came was another person to put our arms around. And that's Zion. That's what we're supposed to be building. And yeah.

Ben:

And yet we both left it for Utah.

Charlie:

We can build Zion here,

Corrine:

Yeah, we came to, we came to put our trowels and some other dirt.

Ben:

I think Corinne is the only non-Tucson, Tucsonian to love Tucson as much as I do.

Corrine:

Yeah, I think that's true. But I feel like I'm basically a Tucsionian because I served there. So...

Ben:

That's fair.

Charlie:

That's your mission?

Corrine:

Yeah, that was where I served my mission. Yeah,

Charlie:

I like that. You said every person who came was another person to put our arms around. That's so pretty. I could monogram onto a pillow or something.

Corrine:

I have struggled to find the people who are like, yes, add one more--or great I want to be included in what you have to offer. And so I think about that time a lot in Arizona where, you know, peg-legged bird could have showed up and we would have been excited about it, you know, like everyone was just added to the beauty of it.

Ben:

Charlie's child will be named "Peg Legged Bird!" That's exactly how it was, you know, it's like, whoever was new in the ward, like, come.

Corrine:

Immediately. Yeah. And come to ally night. And yeah....

Ben:

We're going to talk about LGBTQ stuff.

Corrine:

And it was beautiful. I mean, it was so beautiful.

Ben:

It really truly was.

Corrine:

And the best part about all this is my sweet, amazing husband. I'm, you know, we got married. And he was this just guileless, sweet man, who had never been exposed to a homosexual in his entire life. And so he had some pretty strong feelings, and preconceived notions and watching him, morph and evolve, as we've been married has been so amazing. And we did not get married with me thinking, "I'm gonna turn you into an ally." Like, but as we've been married, as he's had proximity to the people that I love, like, I've watched his heart soften and change. And so that has been so wonderful to me to see, like something that I love so much start to like, blossom and multiply.

Ben:

Yeah. So I've got another question for you, Corinne. So I went to your house a couple weeks ago. And when Sarah, my friend Sarah, well, our friend Sarah...

Corrine:

I love her.

Ben:

She was on the podcast twice. And you were like, "I want to meet her! I want to be her so much!"

Corrine:

Shout out to Sarah, I love you.

Ben:

So I asked if I could bring a friend over. I didn't tell you who it was. And I brought Sarah and her and her husband over.

Corrine:

Yes.

Charlie:

Okay. Thanks for the invite.

Corrine:

Charlie, you are so busy.

Ben:

You wouldn't even respond to our text messages.

Charlie:

Okay, fine. Keep going.

Ben:

Anyway, so I was talking to Sarah later about about you. And she said that when she walked into your house, she just like, immediately felt safe. And like, felt loved there. And she said, she told me later that she's like, I would take my any friend to Corinne's house, even my most devastated friend, I know that they would be okay. And she said, like, if I needed someone, if I had someone who I knew, like needed a place to stay like I know, the Corinne would take them in.

Corrine:

I would.

Ben:

And would be so happy to. And she said, and she said, like I knew Corinne for 30 seconds, and I fell in love with her. So my question for you is like, how did you do that in your home? Like, how did you make your home into that place? Where where someone who didn't know you knew that they were safe?

Corrine:

Yeah, that's a great question. And kind of interesting, since I'm an interior designer, like we couldn't really get into the science.

Ben:

The warm wood floors.

Corrine:

Feng shui.

Ben:

20th century couch.

Corrine:

So it really does start inside, right? Like, what, what you have inside is what reflects out. So I think a huge part of that is just like what the work I've done internally, to not shrink. And obviously, I'm not perfect, like I'm a heathen. But I've really done the work to like, not turn away from things that make me uncomfortable, especially within the sphere of the church. And so that's part one. Part two is I've tried to create a physical space in my home that just feels welcoming. And so you can attribute that to my furniture or my lighting, whatever. But I think overall, when people walk into my home, they sense the feeling or the essence of what I'm trying to inject into my life. And that bleeds into all areas of my life, because that's so important to me. So does that answer your question?

Ben:

Yeah, I think that's beautiful.

Charlie:

So Corinne, in the beginning, you were talking about how you were a homophobic bigot. And now you are...

Corrine:

And now everyone knows.

Charlie:

And now you are a visible ally.

Corrine:

Yeah.

Charlie:

And like a real one, like, you get the badge of"real" from the gays, at least from these ones. And something that I want to point out that you said is, you were so afraid that by opening your mind to different people, different experiences, it would be a slippery slope, and that you would lose your testimony. But almost the inverse of that happened, like as you interacted with different children of God, and different ideologies and perspectives, you were you were edified, and you were enlarged. And I'm wondering if you could just kind of like, tell us why you think that was?

Corrine:

I mean, I think the simple answer is Jesus. Like, I changed because I let the love of God into my life. And, you know, to--so you dedicated your book to a 14 year old Charlie. Like I'm going to dedicate this podcast to 25 year old Corinne. Like, we in the church are taught to fear and create such a distance between the things that don't align with our doctrine or our teachings. And and like I understand the reason behind that, like, you don't want to invite elements into your life that could you know, harm you. But the inverse of that is that you then remove anything from your life that creates any level of discomfort. I was so focused on like this barrier, that the only way I could keep that barrier up was to fill my heart with hatred and judgment and like false truths. And when I finally just was like, Okay, I'm gonna, like, take one brick off of this wall, and just like, see what comes over. And it was like, I took it off, and I was like, right there ready to like, shove it back into place, but then, like, what came over was light. And so then I was like, Okay, I'm gonna pull another brick off. And I was like, light, and more light and more light. And it just filled my soul. And it healed wounds totally unrelated to this, but it just filled my cup. And I realized that I had been denying myself, like, the fullness of what the Spirit had to offer me in my baptismal covenants in my temple covenants, by keeping that wall there. And I've, I've mentioned this to Ben before, but like, one of the reasons I love Ben, and you so much is because I feel like there are very few people who are truly fulfilling the measure of their creation on this earth. But I look at both of you, and you have dedicated every particle of your being all of your energy and your gifts and your talents into edifying the family of God. And that is so amazing. And every time I'm with you, I'm so full, like, I'm refreshed. And like, I changed, and I just, it hurts me when I see what I used to be in others, and I know what they're missing, like they're missing the sweetest, most beautiful part. Like in first Nephi, when Lehi says it was sweet, above all, that is sweet. Like, that's what this is, when you let your heart change when you let your--when you become an ally, not just to the LGBTQ community, but just an ally to the family of God, in general, is the sweetest association. And so I'm over here like wanting to run in and bail water and hand out cookies, and you know, whatever it is, that can be done, because it just makes me full of love and light and happiness, and everyone wants it. And they just, they don't realize that they're denying it of their own accord.

Ben:

So you have this change line upon line, precept upon precept and taking down brick by brick.

Corrine:

Here a little, there a little. Yeah, yeah.

Ben:

I love that. Let's take down those barriers brick by brick.

Corrine:

Yeah. And don't let the fear, like the desire to protect what you have rob you from having more, because you think that by protecting yourself from these things...

Charlie:

Wow.

Corrine:

Well, you know what I'm saying?

Charlie:

Thank you. That's, that's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that analogy. Thank you for joining us today. If you have enjoyed this or other episodes, please consider leaving a review following us on Instagram or Facebook to see what Corinne posts at Questions from the Closet or sharing this podcast with someone you love. And as always, please remember that we do not represent the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or Brigham Young University. We're not trying to be prescriptive or tell anyone what to think or what to do.

Ben:

You heard three perspectives and there are many, many more. We encourage you to listen to other voices and hear a wide variety of experiences. If you would like to submit a question or share a comment about today's episode, you can email us at questionsfromthecloset@gmail.com. Until next time...